AA History Lovers 2011 Messages 7090-8081 moderated by Nancy Olson September 18, 1929 – March 25, 2005 Glenn F. Chesnut June 28, 1939 – IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7090. . . . . . . . . . . . Document called: Why Do The Steps Work? From: ckbudnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/3/2011 1:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is anyone familiar with the origin of a document titled "Why Do The Steps Work?" The document includes: How did the 12 step program originate? Dr. William D. Silkworth Dr. Carl Jung Frank Buchman Ebby's Meeting With Bill Bill's Last Treatment: Spiritual Experience and Williams James Bill's Early Recovery And Meeting With Dr. Bob Refinement Of The Program Of Action What Are The Spiritual Principles Of The 12 Steps? Recapping The Problem And The Solution How Can A 12 Step Program Work For A Non-Religious Person? Changing Our Ideas, Attitudes And Behavior Thanks, Chris B. Raleigh, NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7091. . . . . . . . . . . . Out of print pamphlets From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/31/2010 5:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am looking at a 11/63 aaws catalog of literature and wanted to know if anyone has pictures of P-13 Fortune Reprint P-14 Good Housekeeping Reprint P-26 Corrections Officials Evaluate A.A. P-27 Hospital Administratore Evaluate A. A. P-28 Patterns of A. A. Cooperation with Hospitals P-29 Cooperation but Not affiliation P-30 The Fellowship of A. A. P-31 A. A. - Helpful Ally in Coping with Alcoholism P-32 Basic Fact File P-33 Background Editorial Material P-34 Background Radio-TV Material P-35 Public Information Kit Contact me at: justjohn1431946@yahoo.com (justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com) Thank you and best to all in the New Year 2011. John Wikelius Enterprise, Alabama IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7092. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA in Pakistan From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/29/2010 5:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Article in the Guardian: "Alcoholism booms in 'dry' Pakistan" http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/27/alcoholism-boom-pakistan?INTCMP= SRCH Tommy IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7093. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA in Pakistan From: Arun Shelar . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/31/2010 7:24:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Please visit following site or contact on tel no. so that you can get the information locally. For A A in Pakistan http://www.aapakistan.yolasite.com Contact number is 0303-2899006 and contact person is Bilal L. with love, Arun IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7094. . . . . . . . . . . . AA groups started without contact with people already in AA? From: rajiv . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2010 4:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have read much of the history of how the AA groups started in other cities after the Big Book was published. And it seems that the members who started AA in other cities had first been helped through the Steps by one of 100 founding members or by some alcoholic whom they had helped. I would like to know if there is any record of alcoholics, who had recovered by merely following the directions from the Big Book, without any contact with recovered alcoholics from other cities, starting AA in their cities. Thanks. Rajiv IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7095. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Stories carried over from 1st to 2nd edition of Big Book From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2010 11:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Many changes in Fitz M's story "Our Southern Friend" I hesitate to contradict Jared - he is a true and reliable wellspring of information both important and arcane and perhaps the most scrupulous researcher within our fold - but there were some extensive edits done to Fitz M's story "Our Southern Friend" when it was reprinted in the second edition (and then preserved in the third and fourth editions). For instance, the first three paragraphs that appear in this story in the first edition have been deleted, along with other deletions and additions throughout. During a recent visit to the Stepping Stones archive we were able to see even earlier versions of this story that are preserved there, containing some interesting variations from the one published in the first edition. Old Bill --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "J. Lobdell" wrote: > > And btw the one (other than Bob's and Bill's) retained unedited was Fitz M., "Our Southern Friend" -- in all four editions. Arch T's "The Man Who Mastered Fear" (edited and retitled) is the only other 1st edition story still in the 4th edition. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7096. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Are there any Wikipedia editors here who know about the Washingtonians? From: khemex@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2010 7:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is a masterful history of the Washingtonian movement by Milton Maxwell (past Chairman of the Alcoholic Foundation). It's about 80 pages as I recall, so it's probably too big to post to WIKI. That's the source that I use to find data on the movement pre 1935. Gerry Winkelman ___________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. Lobdell" Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 5:22:57 PM Subject: RE: Are there any Wikipedia editors here who know about the Washingtonians? The article is fundamentally inaccurate -- even the names of the six founders are partly inaccurate (taken from a non-authoritative 1878 secondary source). It doesn't need references; it needs a thorough rewrite. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7097. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Chuck C., A New Pair of Glasses From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/24/2010 9:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Charles Knapp, Alex H., planternva, aalogsdon, Mike F., and jhoffma6 - - - - From: Charles Knapp (cpknapp at yahoo.com) Hey Group, The 1st printing of "A New Pair of Glasses" came out in May 1984. I have a 2nd printing and it came out Sept 1984. Charles Anxon Chamberlain was born in Lawrencepost, Indiana, Aug 3, 1903. He married Elsa Winnifred Matthews in 1926 in LA (married 58 years). They had 2 boys: William H Chamberlain in 1927 and George Richard Chamberlain in 1934. Chuck C. died in Laguna Beach, California on Dec 14, 1984. His date of sobriety was January ?, 1946 (sober 38 years). So the book was out at least 7 months before Chuck died. In one of his talks, I have heard Clancy say that Chuck did know about this book, but cannot remember what Clancy said his reaction to it was. Will see if I can locate this tape and post some additional information. Hope this helps, Charles from Wisconsin - - - - From: Alex H (jewishbridge at gmail.com) According to the Forward in the book "A New Pair of Glasses" (in front of me at the moment) it says that Chuck C. and his wife Elma helped Lee T. to pick out and arrange the tapes from the Pala Mesa Retreat and turn them into book form. Exactly how much work that was I have no idea but what is implied is that Lee T. had Chuck and Elma's permission and the words were Chuck's. [I am a past member of the Ohio Street meetings and though I cannot say I knew Chuck, he saved my life by close proxy nevertheless. I believe that with all my heart.] Shabbat Shalom, Alex H. - - - - From: "planternva2000" (planternva2000 at yahoo.com) As to whether Chuck C. would have approved of "A New Pair of Glasses" being printed, we have this from page xiii: "This man, Chuck C., is the first human being I have ever met who truly has something I want. I want what he has. I once asked him which of the hundreds of tapes that have been recorded of his talks over the years best represented his thinking. he did not hesitate when he replied that the talks he gave at the Pala Mesa Retreat, a gathering of fellow alcoholic men in 1975, included just about all his thoughts on the program of alcoholics Anonymous and the Program of Life. "With the help of Chuck C. and his wife, Elsa, we have put these tapes into writing so that the countless number of people that Chuck has touched and will touch in the future may have a volume to pick up and gain comfort from." Jim S. - - - - From: Aalogsdon (aalogsdon at aol.com) Sorry ... my copy of the first printing is buried at the moment but I have a copy signed by Chuck C. From memory I believe he died in December 1984 some months after the book came out. Howard P. of Arizona also has a signed copy that I once owned. As to how it was written, see the book THE WHEEL AND I by John Crene for details. - - - - From GC the moderator: is this the book listed in Amazon as authored by John Crean, The Wheel and I: Driving Fleetwood Enterprises to the Top (Self-Published in Newport Beach, CA: Author's Limited Preview Edition, 2000)? Or is this a different book? http://www.amazon.com/Wheel-Crean-Driving-Fleetwood-Enterprises/dp/097009450 7 - - - - From: "azmikefitz" (azmikefitz at yahoo.com) John, The book A New Pair of Glasses was first published in a limited printing in May 1984 -- the second printing was September 1984. Chuck was still living and he died in December of that same year. He was aware of the book and it was done with his permission. The book was financed by his close friend John C. Chuck was asked prior to publication if he wanted anything changed and I've been told he said "If I said it - it can stay". So nothing was changed in the transcription. I know of five signed copies of the first limited printing but have never seen a signed copy of the second printing. Mike F - - - - From: "momaria33772" (jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com) According to the book, Chuck and Elsa were very helpful in putting the tapes of the 1975 retreat into written form. The kook was copyright by Chuck C., 1st published May 1984. Chuck passed on December 14, 1984. There is also a recording of the Memorial Service later in the month. _______________________________________________ Original message 7075 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7075 from John Moore (contact.johnmoore at gmail.com) Chuck C., A New Pair of Glasses Chuck C. did not write this or any other book, by the way. He never saw "A New Pair of Glasses" and I wonder sometimes if he would have approved of it being printed. The book is a transcript of sessions of an annual retreat at Palo Mesa California. I think Chuck went every year, or he put it on every year ... my recollection. I have the cassette tape copies of this retreat which was recorded in 1975. The book came out in 1984 after his death. My question is, was this a work in process while Chuck was still alive, and did he know of it? Maybe someone knows...? John M Burlington, Vermont 12-07-1971 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7098. . . . . . . . . . . . 1st edit - Fitz M - Our Southern Friend - compare to 2nd edit From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2011 12:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Compare this 1st edition to the 2nd edition that follows in the next post Our Southern Friend TWO rosy-cheeked children stand at the top of a long hill as the glow of the winter sunset lights up the snow covered country-side. "It's time to go home" says my sister. She is the eldest. After one more exhilarating trip on the sled, we plod homeward through the deep snow. The light from an oil lamp shines from an upstairs window of our home. We stamp the snow from our boots and rush in to the warmth of the coal stove which is supposed to heat upstairs as well. "Hello dearies," calls Mother from above, "get your wet things off." "Where's Father?" I ask, having gotten a whiff of sausage cooking through the kitchen door and thinking of supper. "He went down to the swamp," replies Mother. "He should be home soon." Father is an Episcopal minister and his work takes him over long drives on bad roads. His parishioners are limited in number, but his friends are many, for to him race, creed, or social position make no difference. It is not long before he drives up in the old buggy. Both he and old Maud are glad to get home. The drive was long and cold but he was thankful for the hot bricks which some thoughtful person had given him for his feet. Soon supper is on the table. Father says grace, p.226 ------------------------------------------ which delays my attack on the buckwheat cakes and sausage. What an appetite! A big setter lies asleep near the stove. He begins to make queer sounds and his feet twitch. What is he after in his dreams? More cakes and sausage. At last I am filled. Father goes to his study to write some letters. Mother plays the piano and we sing. Father finishes his letters and we all join in several exciting games of parchesi. Then Father is persuaded to read aloud some more of "The Rose and the Ring." Bed-time comes. I climb to my room in the attic. It is cold so there is no delay. I crawl under a pile of blankets and blow out the candle. The wind is rising and howls around the house. But I am safe and warm. I fall into a dreamless sleep. I am in church. Father is delivering his sermon. A wasp is crawling up the back of the lady in front of me. I wonder if it will reach her neck. Shucks! It has flown away. Ho, hum, maybe the watermelons are ripe in Mr. Jones patch. That's an idea! Benny will know, but Mr. Jones will not know what happened to some of them, if they are. At last! The message has been delivered. "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works-." I hunt for my nickel to drop in the plate so that mine will be seen. Father comes forward in the chancel of the church. "The peace of God which passes all understanding, keep your hearts and minds-." Hurray! Just a hymn and then church will be over until next week! p.227 ------------------------------------------ I am in another fellow's room at college. "Freshman," said he to me, "do you ever take a drink?" I hesitated. Father had never directly spoken to me about drinking and he never drank any, so far as I knew. Mother hated liquor and feared a drunken man. Her brother had been a drinker and had died in a state hospital for the insane. But his life was unmentionable, so far as I was concerned. I had never had a drink but I had seen enough merriment in the boys who were drinking to be interested. I would never be like the village drunkard at home. How a lot of people despised him! Just a weakling! "Well," said the older boy, "Do you?" "Once in a while," I lied. I could not let him think I was a sissy. He poured out two drinks. "Here's looking at you," said he. I gulped it down and choked. I didn't like it, but I would not say so. No, never! A mellow glow stole over me. Say! This wasn't so bad after all. In fact, it was darn good. Sure I'd have another. The glow increased. Other boys came in. My tongue loosened. Everyone laughed loudly. I was witty. I had no inferiorities. Why, I wasn't even ashamed of my skinny legs! This was the real thing! A haze filled the room. The electric light began to move. Then two bulbs appeared. The faces of the other boys grew dim. How sick I felt. I staggered to the bathroom-. Shouldn't have drunk so much or so fast. But I knew how to handle it now. I'd drink like a gentleman after this. And so I met John Barleycorn. The grand fellow p.228 ------------------------------------------ who at my call made me "a hale fellow, well met," who gave me such a fine voice, as we sang "Hail, hail, the gang's all here," and "Sweet Adeline," who gave me freedom from fear and feelings of inferiority. Good old John! He was my pal, all right. Final exams of my senior year and I may somehow graduate. I would never have tried, but Mother counts on it so. A case of measles saved me from being kicked out during my Sophomore year. Bells, bells, bells! Class, library, laboratory! Am I tired! But the end is in sight. My last exam and an easy one. I gaze at the board with its questions. Can't remember the answer to the first. I'll try the second. No soap there. Say this is getting serious! I don't seem to remember anything. I concentrate on one of the questions. I don't seem to be able to keep my mind on what I am doing. I get uneasy. If I don't get started soon, I won't have time to finish. No use. I can't think. Oh! An idea! I leave the room, which the honor system allows. I go to my room. I pour out half a tumbler of grain alcohol and fill it with ginger ale. Oh, boy! Now back to the exam. My pen moves rapidly. I know enough of the answers to get by. Good old John Barleycorn! He can certainly be depended on. What a wonderful power he has over the mind! He has given me my diploma! Underweight! How I hate that word. Three attempts to enlist in the service, and three failures because of being skinny. True, I have recently recovered from p.229 ------------------------------------------ pneumonia and have an alibi, but my friends are in the war, or going, and I am not. To hell with it all! I visit a friend who is awaiting orders. The atmosphere of "eat, drink, and be merry" prevails and I absorb it. I drink a lot every night. I can hold a lot now, more than the others. I am examined for the draft and pass the physical exam. What a dirty deal! Drafted! The shame of it. I am to go to camp on November 13th. The Armistice is signed on the 11th and the draft is called off. Never in the service! The war leaves me with a pair of blankets, a toilet kit, a sweater knit by my sister, and a still greater inferiority. It is ten o'clock of a Saturday night. I am working hard on the books of a subsidiary company of a large corporation. I have had experience in selling, collecting, and accounting, and am on my way up the ladder. Then the crack-up. Cotton struck the skids and collections went cold. A twenty three million dollar surplus wiped out. Offices closed up and workers discharged. I, and the books of my division have been transferred to the head office. I have no assistance and am working nights, Saturdays and Sundays. My salary has been cut. My wife and new baby are fortunately staying with relatives, What a life! I feel exhausted. The doctor has told me that if I don't give up inside work, I'll have tuberculosis. But what am I to do? I have a family to support and have no time to be looking for another job. p.230 ------------------------------------------ Oh, well. I reach for the bottle which I just got from George, the elevator boy. I am a traveling salesman. The day is over and business has been not so good. I'll go to bed. I wish I were home with the family and not in this dingy hotel. Well-well-look who's here! Good old Charlie! It's great to see him. How's the boy? A drink? You bet your life! We buy a gallon of "corn" because it is so cheap. Yet I am fairly steady when I go to bed. Morning comes. I feel horribly. A little drink will put me on my feet. But it takes others to keep me there. I see some prospects. I am too miserable to care if they give me an order or not. My breath would knock out a mule, I learn from a friend. Back at the hotel and more to drink. I come to early in the morning. My mind is fairly clear, but inwardly I am undergoing torture. My nerves are screaming in agony. I go to the drug store and it is not open. I wait. Minutes are interminable. Will the store never open? At last! I hurry in. The druggist fixes me up a bromide. I go back to the hotel and lie down. I wait. I am going crazy. The bromides have no effect. I get a doctor. He gives me a hypodermic. Blessed peace! And I blame this experience on the quality of the liquor. I am a real estate salesman. "What is the price of that house," I ask the head of the firm I work for. He names me a price. Then he says, "That is what the builders p.231 ------------------------------------------ are asking, but we will add on $500.00 and split it, if you can close the deal." The prospect signs the contract for the full amount. My boss buys the property and sells to the prospect. I get my commission and $250.00 extra and everything is Jake. But is it? Something is sour. So let's have a drink! I become a teacher in a boy's school. I am happy in my work. I like the boys and we have lots of fun, in class and out. An unhappy mother comes to me about her boy, for she knows I am fond of him. They expected him to get high marks and he has not the ability to do it. So he altered his report card through fear of his father. And his dishonesty has been discovered. Why are there so many foolish parents, and why is there so much unhappiness in these homes? The doctors bills are heavy and the bank account is low. My wife's parents come to our assistance. I am filled with hurt pride and self-pity. I seem to get no sympathy for my illness and have no appreciation of the love behind the gift. I call the boot-legger and fill up my charred keg. But I do not wait for the charred keg to work. I get drunk. My wife is extremely unhappy. Her father comes to sit with me. He never says an unkind word. He is a real friend but I do not appreciate him. We are staying with my wife's father. Her mother is in critical condition at a hospital. The wind is moaning in the pine trees. I cannot sleep. I must get myself p.232 ------------------------------------------ together. I sneak down stairs and get a bottle of whiskey from the cellaret. I pour drinks down my throat. My father-in-law appears. "Have a drink?" I ask. He makes no reply, and hardly seems to see me. His wife dies that night. Mother has been dying of cancer for a long time. She is near the end and now in a hospital. I have been drinking a lot, but never get drunk. Mother must never know. I see her about to go. I return to the hotel where I am staying and get gin from the bell-boy. I drink and go to bed; I take a few the next morning and go see my mother once more. I cannot stand it. I go back to the hotel and get more gin. I drink steadily. I come to at three in the morning. The indescribable torture has me again. I turn on the light. I must get out of the room or I shall jump out of the window. I walk miles. No use. I go to the hospital, where I have made friends with the night superintendent. She puts me to bed and gives me a hypodermic. Oh, wonderful peace! Mother and Father die the same year. What is life all about anyway? The world is crazy. Read the newspapers. Everything is a racket. Education is a racket. Medicine is a racket. Religion is a racket. How could there be a loving God who would allow so much suffering and sorrow? Bah! Don't talk to me about religion. For what were my children ever born? I wish I were dead! p.233 ------------------------------------------ I am at the hospital to see my wife. We have another child. But she is not glad to see me. I have been drinking while the baby was arriving. Her father stays with her. My parents estates are settled at last. I have some money. I'll try farming. It will be a good life. I'll farm on a large scale and make a good thing of it. But the deluge descends. Lack of judgment, bad management, a hurricane, and the depression create debts in ever-increasing number. But the stills are' operating throughout the country-side. It is a cold, bleak day in November. I have fought hard to stop drinking. Each battle has ended in defeat. I tell my wife I cannot stop drinking. She begs me to go to a hospital for alcoholics which has been recommended. I say I will go. She makes the arrangements, but I will not go. I'll do it all myself. This time I'm off of it for good. I'll just take a few beers now and then. It is the last day of the following October, a dark, rainy morning. I come to in a pile of hay in a barn. I look for liquor and can't find any. I wander to a stable and drink five bottles of beer. I must get some liquor. Suddenly I feel hopeless, unable to go on. I go home. My wife is in the living room. She had looked for me last evening after I left the car and wandered off into the night. She had looked for me this morning. She p.234 ------------------------------------------ has reached the end of her rope. There is no use trying any more, for there is nothing to try. "Don't say anything," I say to her. "I am going to do something." I am in the hospital for alcoholics. I am an alcoholic. The insane asylum lies ahead. Could I have myself locked up at home? One more foolish idea. I might go out West on a ranch where I couldn't get anything to drink. I might do that. Another foolish idea. I wish I were dead, as I have often wished before. I am too yellow to kill myself. But maybe-. The thought stays in my mind. Four alcoholics play bridge in a smoke-filled room. Anything to get my mind from myself. The game is over and the other three leave. I start to clean up the debris. One man comes back, closing the door behind him. He looks at me. "You think you are hopeless, don't you?" he asks. "I know it," I reply. "Well, you're not," says the man. "There are men on the streets of New York today who were worse than you, and they don't drink anymore." "What are you doing here then?" I ask. "I went out of here nine days ago saying that I was going to be honest, and I wasn't," he answers. A fanatic, I thought to myself, but I was polite. "What is it?" I enquire. Then he asks me if I believe in a power greater than myself, whether I call that power God, Allah, Con- p.235 ------------------------------------------ fucius, Prime Cause, Divine Mind, or any other name. I told him that I believe in electricity and other forces of nature, but as for a God, if there is one, He has never done anything for me. Then he asks me if I am willing to right all the wrongs I have ever done to anyone, no matter how wrong I thought they were. Am I willing to be honest with myself about myself and tell someone about myself, and am I willing to think of other people. and of their needs instead of myself; to get rid of the drink problem? "I'll do anything," I reply. "Then all of your troubles are over" says the man and leaves the room. The man is in bad mental shape certainly. I pick up a book and try to read, but cannot concentrate. I get in bed and turn out the light. But I cannot sleep. Suddenly a thought comes. Can all the worthwhile people I have known be wrong about God? Then I find myself thinking about myself, and a few things that I had wanted to forget. I begin to see I am not the person I had thought myself, that I had judged myself by comparing myself to others, and always to my own advantage. It is a shock. Then comes a thought that is like A Voice. "Who are you to say there is no God?" It rings in my head, I can't get rid of it. I get out of bed and go to the man's room. He is reading. "I must ask you a question," I say to the man. "How does prayer fit into this thing?" "Well," he answers, "you've probably tried praying like I have. When you've been in a jam you've said, 'God, please do this or that' and if it turned out your p.236 ------------------------------------------ way that was the last of it and if it didn't you've said 'There isn't any God' or 'He doesn't do anything for me'. Is that right?" "Yes" I reply. "That isn't the way" he continued. "The thing I do is to say 'God here I am and here are all my troubles. I've made a mess of things and can't do anything about it. You take me, and all my troubles, and do anything you want with me.' Does that answer your question?" "Yes, it does" I answer. I return to bed. It doesn't make sense. Suddenly I feel a wave of utter hopelessness sweep over me. I am in the bottom of hell. And there a tremendous hope is born. It might be true. I tumble out of bed onto my knees. I know not what I say. But slowly a great peace comes to me. I feel lifted up. I believe in God. I crawl back into bed and sleep like a child. Some men and women come to visit my friend of the night before. He invites me to meet them. They are a joyous crowd. I have never seen people that joyous before. We talk. I tell them of the Peace, and that I believe in God. I think of my wife. I must write her. One girl suggests that I phone her. What a wonderful idea. My wife hears my voice and knows I have found the answer to life. She comes to New York. I get out of the hospital and we visit some of these new-found friends. What a glorious time we have! I am home again. I have lost the fellowship. Those that understand me are far away. The same old prob- p.237 ------------------------------------------ lems and worries surround me. Members of my family annoy me. Nothing seems to be working out right. I am blue and unhappy. Maybe a drink-I put on my hat and dash off in the car. Get into the lives of other people, is one thing the fellows in New York had said. I go to see a man I had been asked to visit and tell him my story. I feel much better! I have forgotten about a drink. I am on a train, headed for a city. I have left my wife at home, sick, and I have been unkind to her in leaving. I am very unhappy. Maybe a few drinks when I get to the city will help. A great fear seizes me. I talk to the stranger in the seat with me. The fear and the insane idea is taken away. Things are not going so well at home. I am learning that I cannot have my own way as I used to. I blame my wife and children. Anger possesses me, anger such as I have never felt before. I will not stand for it. I pack my bag and leave. I stay with understanding friends. I see where I have been wrong in some respects. I do not feel angry any more. I return home and say I am sorry for my wrong. I am quiet again. But I have not seen yet that I should do some constructive acts of love without expecting any return. I shall learn this after some more explosions. I am blue again. I want to sell the place and move away. I want to get where I can find some alcoholics to p.238 ------------------------------------------ help, and where I can have some fellowship. A man calls me on the phone. Will I take a young fellow who has been drinking for two weeks to live with me? Soon I have others who are alcoholics and some who have other problems. I begin to play God. I feel that I can fix them all. I do not fix anyone, but I am getting part of a tremendous education and I have made some new friends. Nothing is right. Finances are in bad shape. I must find a way to make some money. The family seems to think of nothing but spending. People annoy me. I try to read. I try to pray. Gloom surrounds me. Why has God left me? I mope around the house. I will not go out and I will not enter into anything. What is the matter? I cannot understand. I will not be that way. I'll get drunk! It is a cold-blooded idea. It is premeditated. I fix up a little apartment over the garage with books and drinking water. I am going to town to get some liquor and food. I shall not drink until I get back to the apartment. Then I shall lock myself in and read. And as I read, I shall take little drinks at long intervals. I shall get myself "mellow" and stay that way. I get in the car and drive off. Halfway down the driveway a thought strikes me. I'll be honest anyway. I'll tell my wife what I am going to do. I back up to the door and go into the house. I call my wife into a room where we can talk privately. I tell her quietly what I intend to do. She says nothing. She does not get excited. She maintains a perfect calm. When I am through speaking, the whole idea has be- p.239 ------------------------------------------ come absurd. Not a trace of fear is in me. I laugh at the insanity of it. We talk of other things. Strength has come from weakness. I cannot see the cause of this temptation now. But I am to learn later that it began with the desire for my own material success becoming greater than the interest in the welfare of my fellow man. I learn more of that foundation stone of character, which is honesty. I learn that when we act upon the highest conception of honesty which is given us, our sense of honesty becomes more acute. I learn that honesty is truth, and the truth shall make us free! Sensuality, drunkenness, and worldliness satisfy a man for a time, but their power is a decreasing one. God produces harmony in those who receive His Spirit and follow Its dictates. Today as I become more harmonized within, I become more in tune with all of God's wonderful creation. The singing of the birds, the sighing of the wind, the patter of raindrops, the roll of thunder, the laughter of happy children, add to the symphony with which I am in tune. The heaving ocean, the driving rain, autumn leaves, the stars of heaven, the perfume of flowers, music, a smile, and a host of other things tell me of the glory of God. There are periods of darkness, but the stars are shining, no matter how black the night. There are disturbances, but I have learned that if I seek patience and open-mindedness, understanding will come. And with p.240 ------------------------------------------ it, direction by the Spirit of God. The dawn comes and with it more understanding, the peace that passes understanding, and the joy of living that is not disturbed by the wildness of circumstances or people around me. Fears, resentments, pride, worldly desires, worry, and self-pity no longer possess me. Ever-increasing are the number of true friends, ever-growing is the capacity for love, ever-widening is the horizon of understanding. And above all else comes a greater thankfulness to, and a greater love for Our Father in heaven. Our Southern Friend John Henry Fitzhugh (Fitz) M. Click here for more resources on Fitz M. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7099. . . . . . . . . . . . 2nd edit - Fitz M - Our Southern Friend - compare to 2nd edit From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2011 12:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Compare to the 1st edition previously posted; edited in this 2nd edition OUR SOUTHERN FRIEND Pioneer A.A., minister's son, and southern farmer, "Who am I," said he, "to say there is no God?" FATHER IS AN Episcopal minister and his work takes him over long drives on bad roads. His parishioners are limited in number, but his friends are many, for to him race, creed, or social position make no difference. It is not long before he drives up in the buggy. Both he and old Maud are glad to get home. The drive was long and cold but he was thankful for the hot bricks which some thoughtful person had given him for his feet. Soon supper is on the table. Father says grace, which delays my attack on the buckwheat cakes ans sausage. Bed-time comes. I climb to my room in the attic. It is cold so there is no delay. I craw under a pile of blankets and blow out the candle. The wind is rising and howls around the house. But I am safe and warm. I fall into a dreamless sleep. I am in church. Father is delivering his sermon. A wasp is crawling up the back of the lady in front of me. I wonder if it will reach her neck. Shucks! It has flown away. At last! The message has been delivered. "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works-." I hunt for my nickel to drop in the plate so that mine will be seen. I am in another fellow's room at colledge. "Fresh- 460 OUR SOUTHERN FRIEND man," said he to me, "do you ever take a drink?" I hesitated. Father had never directly spoken to me about drinking but he never drank any, so far as I knew. Mother hated liquor and feared a drunken man. Her brother had been a drinker and had died in a state hospital for the insane. But his life was unmentioned, so far as I was concerned. I had never had a drink, but I had seen enough merriment in the boys who were drinking to be interested. I would never be like the village drunkard at home. "Well," said the older boy, "Do you?" "Once in a while," I lied. I could not let him think I was a sissy. He poured out two drinks. "Here's looking at you," said he. I gulped it down and choked. I didn't like it, but I would not say so. A mellow glow stole over me. This wasn't so bad after all. Sure I'd have another. The glow increased. Other boys came in. My tongue loosened. Everyone laughed loudly. I was witty. I had no inferiorities. Why, I wasn't even ashamed of my skinny legs! This was the real thing! A haze filled the room. The electric light began to move. Then two bulbs appeared. The faces of the other boys grew dim. How sick I felt. I staggered to the bathroom. Shouldn't have drunk so much or so fast. But I knew how to handle it now. I'd drink like a gentleman after this. And so I met John Barleycorn. The grand fellow who at my call made me "a hale fellow, well met," who gave me such a fine voice, as we sang, "Hail, hail, the gang's all here," and "Sweet Adeline," who gave me freedom from fear and feelings of inferiority. Good old John! He was my pal, all right. 461 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS Final exams of my Senior year and I may somehow graduate. I would never have tried, but mother counts on it so. A case of measles saved me from being kicked out during my Sophomore year. But the end is in sight. My last exam and an easy one. I gaze at the board with its questions. Can't remember the answer to the first. I'll try the second. No soap there. I don't seem to remember anything. I concentrate on one of the questions. I don't seem to be able to keep my mind on what I am doing. I get uneasy. If I don't get started soon, I won't have time to finish. No use. I can't think. I leave the room, which the honor system allows. I go to my room. I pour out half a tumbler of grain alcohol and fill it with ginger ale. Now back to the exam. My pen moves rapidly. I know enough of the answers to get by. Good old John Barleycorn! He can certainly be depended on. What a wonderful power he has over the mind! He has given me my diploma! Underweight! How I hate that word. Three attempts to enlist in the service, and three failures because of being skinny. True, I have recently recovered from pneumonia and have an alibi, but my friends are in the war or going, and I am not. I visit a friend who is awaiting orders. The atmosphere of "eat, drink, and be merry" prevails and I absorb it. I drink a lot every night. I can hold a lot now, more than the others. I am examined for the draft and pass the physical test. I am to go to camp on November 13th. The Armistice is signed on the 11th and the draft is called off. Never in the service! The war leaves me with a pair of blankets, a toilet kit, a sweater knit by my sister, and a still greater inferiority. 462 OUR SOUTHERN FRIEND It is ten o'clock of a Saturday night. I am working hard on the books of a subsidiary company of a large corporation. I have had experience in selling, collecting, and accounting, and am on my way up the ladder. Then the crack-up. Cotton struck the skids and collections went cold. A twenty three million dollar surplus wiped out. Offices closed up and workers discharged. I, and the books of my division, have been transferred to the head office. I have no assistance and am working nights, Saturdays and Sundays. My salary has been cut. My wife and new baby are fortunately staying with relatives. I feel exhausted. The doctor has told me that if I don't give up inside work, I'll have tuberculosis. But what am I to do? I have a family to support and have no time to be looking for another job. I reach for the bottle which I just got from George, the elevator boy. I am a traveling salesman. The day is over and business has been not so good. I'll go to bed. I wish I were home with the family and not in this dingy hotel. Well-well-look who's here! Good old Charlie! It's great to see him. How's the boy? A drink? You bet your life! We buy a gallon of "corn" because it is so cheap. Yet I am fairly steady when I go to bed. Morning comes. I feel horribly. A little drink will put me on my feet. But it takes others to keep me there. I become a teacher in a boy's school. I am happy in my work. I like the boys and we have lots of fun, in class and out. 463 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS The doctors bills are heavy and the bank account is low. My wife's parents come to our assistance. I am filled with hurt pride and self-pity. I seem to get no sympathy for my illness and have no appreciation of the love behind the gift. I call the bootlegger and fill up my charred keg. But I do not wait for the charred keg to work. I get drunk. My wife is extremely unhappy. Her father comes to sit with me. He never says an unkind word. He is a real friend but I do not appreciate him. We are staying with my wife's father. Her mother is in critical condition at a hospital. I cannot sleep. I must get myself together. I sneak down stairs and get a bottle of whiskey from the cellaret. I pour drinks down my throat. My father-in-law appears. "Have a drink?" I ask. He makes no reply, and hardly seems to see me. His wife dies that night. Mother has been dying of cancer for a long time. She is near the end now and is in a hospital. I have been drinking a lot, but never get drunk. Mother must never know. I see her about to go. I return to the hotel where I am staying and get gin from the bellboy. I drink and go to bed; I take a few the next morning and go see my mother once more. I cannot stand it. I go back to the hotel and get more gin. I drink steadily. I come to at three in the morning. The indescribable torture has me again. I turn on the light. I must get out of the room or I shall jump out of the window. I walk miles. No use. I go to the hospital, where I have made friends with the night superintendent. She puts me to bed and gives me a hypodermic. I am at the hospital to see my wife. We have an- 464 OUR SOUTHERN FRIEND other child. But she is not glad to see me. I have been drinking while the baby was arriving. Her father stays with her. It is a cold, bleak day in November. I have fought hard to stop drinking. Each battle has ended in defeat. I tell my wife I cannot stop drinking. She begs me to go to a hospital for alcoholics which has been recommended. I say I will go. She makes the arrangements, but I will not go. I'll do it all myself. This time I'm off of it for good. I'll just take a few beers now and then. It is the last day of the following October, a dark, rainy morning. I come to in a pile of hay in a barn. I look for liquor and can't find any. I wander to a stable and drink five bottles of beer. I must get some liquor. Suddenly I feel hopeless, unable to go on. I go home. My wife is in the living room. She had looked for me last evening after I left the car and wandered off into the night. She had looked for me this morning. She has reached the end of her rope. There is no use trying any more, for there is nothing to try. "Don't say anything," I say to her. "I am going to do something." I am in the hospital for alcoholics. I am an alcoholic. The insane asylum lies ahead. Could I have myself locked up at home? One more foolish idea. I might go out West on a ranch where I couldn't get anything to drink. I might do that. Another foolish idea. I wish I were dead, as I have often wished before. I am too yellow to kill myself. Four alcoholics play bridge in a smoke-filled room. Anything to get my mind from myself. The game is over and the other three leave. I start to clean up the 465 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS debris. One man comes back, closing the door behind him. He looks at me. "You think you are hopeless, don't you?" he asks. "I know it," I reply. "Well, you're not," says the man. "There are men on the streets of New York today who were worse than you, and they don't drink anymore." "What are you doing here then?" I ask. "I went out of here nine days ago saying that I was going to be honest, and I wasn't," he answers. A fanatic, I thought to myself, but I was polite. "What is it?" I enquire. Then he asks me if I believe in a power greater than myself, whether I call that power God, Allah, Confucius, Prime Cause, Divine Mind, or any other name. I told him that I believe in electricity and other forces of nature, but as for a God, if there is one, He has never done anything for me. Then he asks me if I am willing to right all the wrongs I have ever done to anyone, no matter how wrong I thought the others were. Am I willing to be honest with myself about myself and tell someone about myself, and am I willing to think of other people, of their needs instead of myself, in order to get rid of the drink problem? "I'll do anything," I reply. "Then all of your troubles are over," says the man and leaves the room. The man is in bad mental shape certainly. I pick up a book and try to read, but cannot concentrate. I get in bed and turn out the light. But I cannot sleep. Suddenly a thought comes. Can all the worthwhile people I have known be wrong about God? Then I find myself thinking about myself, 466 OUR SOUTHERN FRIEND and a few things that I had wanted to forget. I begin to see I am not the person I had thought myself, that I had judged myself by comparing myself to others, and always to my own advantage. It is a shock. Then comes a thought that is like A Voice. "Who are you to say there is no God?" It rings in my head; I can't get rid of it. I get out of bed and go to the man's room. He is reading. "I must ask you a question," I say to the man. "How does prayer fit into this thing?" "Well," he answers, "you've probably tried praying like I have. When you've been in a jam you've said, 'God, please do this or that,' and if it turned out your way that was the last of it, and if it didn't you've said 'There isn't any God' or 'He doesn't do anything for me'. Is that right?" "Yes" I reply. "That isn't the way" he continued. "The thing I do is to say 'God here I am and here are all my troubles. I've made a mess of things and can't do anything about it. You take me, and all my troubles, and do anything you want with me.' Does that answer your question?" "Yes, it does" I answer. I return to bed. It doesn't make sense. Suddenly I feel a wave of utter hopelessness sweep over me. I am in the bottom of hell. And there a tremendous hope is born. It might be true. I tumble out of bed onto my knees. I know not what I say. But slowly a great peace comes to me. I believe in God. I crawl back into bed and sleep like a child. Some men and women come to visit my friend of the night before. He invites me to meet them. They are a joyous crowd. I have never seen people that joyous 467 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS before. We talk. I tell them of the peace, and that I believe in God. I think of my wife. I must write her. One girl suggests that I phone her. What a wonderful idea! My wife hears my voice and knows I have found the answer to life. She comes to New York. I get out of the hospital and we visit some of these new-found friends. I am home again. I have lost the fellowship. Those that understand me are far away. The same old problems and worries surround me. Members of my family annoy me. Nothing seems to be working out right. I am blue and unhappy. Maybe a drink—I put on my hat and dash off in the car. Get into the lives of other people, is one thing the fellows in New York had said. I go to see a man I had been asked to visit and tell him my story. I feel much better! I have forgotten about a drink. I am on a train, headed for a city. I have left my wife at home, sick, and I have been unkind to her in leaving. I am very unhappy. Maybe a few drinks when I get to the city will help. A great fear seizes me. I talk to the stranger in the seat beside me. The fear and the insane idea is taken away. Things are not going so well at home. I am learning that I cannot have my own way as I used to. I blame my wife and children. Anger possesses me, anger such as I have never felt before. I will not stand for it. I pack my bag and leave. I stay with understanding friends. I see where I have been wrong in some respects. I do not feel angry any more. I return home and say I am sorry for my wrong. I am quiet again. But I have 468 OUR SOUTHERN FRIEND not seen yet that I should do some constructive acts of love without expecting any return. I shall learn this after some more explosions. I am blue again. I want to sell the place and move away. I want to get where I can find some alcoholics to help, and where I can have some fellowship. A man calls me on the phone. Will I take a young fellow who has been drinking for two weeks to live with me? Soon I have others who are alcoholics and some who have other problems. I begin to play God. I feel that I can fix them all. I do not fix anyone, but I am getting part of a tremendous education and I have made some new friends. Nothing is right. Finances are in bad shape. I must find a way to make some money. The family seems to think of nothing but spending. People annoy me. I try to read. I try to pray. Gloom surrounds me. Why has God left me? I mope around the house. I will not go out and I will not enter into anything. What is the matter? I cannot understand. I will not be that way. I'll get drunk! It is a cold-blooded idea. It is premeditated. I fix up a little apartment over the garage with books and drinking water. I am going to town to get some liquor and food. I shall not drink until I get back to the apartment. Then I shall lock myself in and read. And as I read, I shall take little drinks at long intervals. I shall get myself "mellow" and stay that way. I get in the car and drive off. Halfway down the driveway a thought strikes me. I'll be honest anyway. I'll tell my wife what I am going to do. I back up to the door and go into the house. I call my wife into a 469 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS room where we can talk privately. I tell her quietly what I intend to do. She says nothing. She does not get excited. She maintains a perfect calm. When I am through speaking, the whole idea has become absurd. Not a trace of fear is in me. I laugh at the insanity of it. We talk of other things. Strength has come from weakness. I cannot see the cause of this temptation now. But I am to learn later that it began with my desire for material success becoming greater than my interest in the welfare of my fellow man. I learn more of that foundation stone of character, which is honesty. I learn that when we act upon the highest conception of honesty which is given us, our sense of honesty becomes more acute. I learn that honesty is truth, and the truth shall make us free! 470 "Our Southern Friend" John Henry Fitzhugh (Fitz) M. Click here for more resources on Fitz M._________________________ All of the Second editions stories, along with the 1st edition stories, are now available from silkworth.net in their entirety here, including all changes: http://www.silkworth.net/bbstories/2nd/stories.html ~Jim M. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7100. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Stories carried over from 1st to 2nd edition of Big Book From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2011 5:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I went back and looked again and Bill, unsurprisingly (given his ability and dedication), is right. Fitz's story did not change from 2 to 3 to 4, but it did change between 1 and 2 (oddly, I think, considering Fitz couldn't have approved the changes after 1943). I would be very interested indeed in the changes from the prepub text to Edition 1. __________________________________________ > From: schaberg@aol.com > Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 16:59:25 +0000 > Subject: Re: Stories carried over from 1st to 2nd edition of Big Book > > Many changes in Fitz M's story "Our Southern Friend" > > I hesitate to contradict Jared - he is a true and reliable wellspring of information both important and arcane and perhaps the most scrupulous researcher within our fold - but there were some extensive edits done to Fitz M's story "Our Southern Friend" when it was reprinted in the second edition (and then preserved in the third and fourth editions). > > For instance, the first three paragraphs that appear in this story in the first edition have been deleted, along with other deletions and additions throughout. > > During a recent visit to the Stepping Stones archive we were able to see even earlier versions of this story that are preserved there, containing some interesting variations from the one published in the first edition. > > Old Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7101. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA groups started without contact with people already in AA? From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2011 6:20:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII When you said no help from any other member, I assume you do not mean members working at the AA office in New York. Early on, almost any request for information was always followed up and contact was kept with new prospects. Bobbie B was one of those New York office workers that followed up with new members and occasionally sponsored loner members. One person does come to mind. Pat Cooper in Los Angeles got sober from reading the manuscript for the Big Book before it was published. His story was in the 1st Edition of the Big Book called "Lone Endeavor." After the book was published, Pat made a trip to New York, but arrived drunk. The story was pulled from the 2nd printing of the book. In a letter dated Feb 8, 1947, Kaye Miller, founder of AA in LA, wrote Bill W and said Pat was going to meetings and might just make it. Nothing else was ever heard of him and he has faded into AA history. Hope this helps Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7102. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Are there any Wikipedia editors here who know about the Washingtonians? From: Jay Lawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2011 6:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A WARNING ABOUT USING WIKIPEDIA uncritically as a source of information about Alcoholics Anonymous history, from Jay Lawyer: That is the trouble with using Wikipedia as any kind of source for information. Anybody can write anything they want and unless somebody comes along to change it, there it is for people to take as Gospel. We of Alcoholics Anonymous have enough inaccurate info already, don't need to add to it. Jay ___________________________________________ Original Message: A complaint about the Wikipedia article on the Washingtonians said: The article is fundamentally inaccurate -- even the names of the six founders are partly inaccurate (taken from a non-authoritative 1878 secondary source). It doesn't need references; it needs a thorough rewrite. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7103. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Is Grapevine literature "conference approved"? From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/25/2010 3:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Laurie Andrews, Edgar C, and Kimball Rowe - - - - From: Laurie Andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) Each issue of the Grapevine carries this caveat or disclaimer: "Conference Advisory Action 1986: 'Since each issue of the Grapevine cannot go through the Conference-approval process, the Conference recognizes the AA Grapevine as the international journal of Alcoholics Anonymous'." - - - - From: edgarc@aol.com (edgarc at aol.com) The statement was made: "Isn't the Grapevine generally considered to be conference approved via Concept 3?" By the lawyerly interpretation assumed in that statement, ANY literature used by a group (certainly an "element" of AA) could be considered conference-approved . . . Edgar C, Sarasota, Florida - - - - From: "Kimball Rowe" (roweke at msn.com) I would like to reverse the same question -- shoe on the other foot: If a group draws a line in the sand for which they will not cross, i.e. "we will not read from non-conference approved literature" then would not the Grapevine be "considered" out. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7104. . . . . . . . . . . . 1942 Letter by Bill W. From: doci333 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2011 3:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In "As Bill See's It" page 14, "Newcomer Problem" in a 1942 letter by Bill W. he writes: "You can't make a horse drink water if he still prefers beer or is too crazy to know what he does want. Set a pail of water beside him, tell him how good it is and why, and leave him alone. "If people really want to get drunk, there is, so far as I know, no way of stopping this - so leave them alone and let them get drunk. But don't exclude them from the water pail, either." 2. LETTER, 1942 Can anyone share the whole letter and any information concerning who the letter was directed to? Any further info. would be appreciated. I searched AA History Lovers and the Digital Archives don't go back that far. Thanks – Dave G., Illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7105. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 1942 Letter by Bill W. From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2011 4:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I had a similar query about the letter quoted on page 116 of As Bill Sees It. My first home group met at a Quaker meeting house and I picked up literature on display there and began attending Quaker meetings, eventually becoming a member. A few years ago I wrote to the archivist at GSO asking if there was a copy of the correspondence which resulted in the As Bill Sees It entry. It seems an AA member Robert C. wrote to Bill in 1950: "Dear Bill, I've been a member of AA for the past three years and am doing a fairly good job. In the meantime I've become interested in the Society of Friends (Quakers) and I seem to see a great kinship between the two movements. The Way of Life of both movements seems to fit so well into each other that I have become greatly interested in knowing how much Quakerism affected not only the foundation of AA but also what part, if any, it has played to date." Bill's reply opens with the two paragraphs quoted in Ad Bill Sees It. He then goes on: "Though the structure of our AA society was designed only by experience and what grace God may have given us, I must confess that in this aspect we do bear a strong resemblance to the Quakers. We, too, speak of a group conscience. Our leadership is rotating. We have no paid preachers and once the early members erected the basic principles, the authority seems to flow up through the mass instead of down from the top. When I wrote the Traditions, I can assure you that I did not create this state of affairs, I merely reflected what had already appeared out of the groups." I believe Lois Wilson attended a Quaker school as a child, and that after Bill died there was a Quaker-style unprogrammed meeting for worship at Stepping Stones. I was intrigued to know how Bill knew so much about Quakerism, but the archivist could shed no light on that. ___________________________________________ To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com From: doci333@hotmail.com Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 Subject: 1942 Letter by Bill W. In "As Bill See's It" page 14, "Newcomer Problem" in a 1942 letter by Bill W. he writes: "You can't make a horse drink water if he still prefers beer or is too crazy to know what he does want. Set a pail of water beside him, tell him how good it is and why, and leave him alone. "If people really want to get drunk, there is, so far as I know, no way of stopping this - so leave them alone and let them get drunk. But don't exclude them from the water pail, either." 2. LETTER, 1942 Can anyone share the whole letter and any information concerning who the letter was directed to? Any further info. would be appreciated. I searched AA History Lovers and the Digital Archives don't go back that far. Thanks – Dave G., Illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7106. . . . . . . . . . . . What illness did Lois Wilson have on p. 5 of the Big Book? From: bikergaryg@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2011 1:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Big Book p. 5: "Gradually things got worse. The house was taken over by the mortgage holder, my mother-in-law died, my wife and father-in-law became ill." A friend of mine wrote me and asked: "I was reading the BB with someone yesterday and p. 5 of Bill's story refers to Lois being sick (it says, 'my wife got ill'). The person asked me what Lois had ... I had no idea. Do you know?" Thanks and happy 24. Kim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7107. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W''s Norwich University undergraduate major From: royslev . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2011 3:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I noticed a post by Barefoot Bill of an obituary for Bill Wilson which identifies his college major as an undergraduate as "engineering." I've heard Clancy I. refer to Bill as having majored in "electrical engineering." Do we in fact know for sure that it was engineering, and if so, what kind of engineering was it? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7108. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What illness did Lois Wilson have on p. 5 of the Big Book? From: eric_millman . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2011 6:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the movie "My Name is Bill W.," I believe Lois had a miscarriage around that time. Rick M IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7109. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What illness did Lois Wilson have on p. 5 of the Big Book? From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2011 4:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Message #7106 asked: What illness did Lois Wilson have on p. 5 of the Big Book? We need to look at Big Book p. 4: "My wife began to work in a department store." As well as looking at Big Book p. 5: "Gradually things got worse. The house was taken over by the mortgage holder, my mother-in-law died, my wife and father-in-law became ill." In this part of the Big Book, Bill W. seems quite possibly to have conflated events from a number of different years, widely separated, which he arranged totally out of chronological order. He was NOT a good man with dates. But I may be being too skeptical here. Can any of our real Bill W. and Lois experts make better sense out of these events? Could the reference to Lois' illness on page 5 be talking about her ectopic pregnancies? But they occurred in 1922 and 1923. Lois didn't start working at Macy's (page 4) until 1931, implying that the illness referred to on page 5 was something that occurred a number of years later, if we accept the chronology of Bill Wilson's account here in pages 4-5 of the Big Book. _______________________________________ THESE DATES ARE TAKEN FROM: Arthur S. and Archie M. "A Narrative Timeline Of AA History" http://silkworth.net/timelines/timelines_public/timelines_public.html 1922: "Summer, Lois experienced two ectopic pregnancies (the first in Jun and the second in Jul). After the second misfortune, Bill W and Lois were obliged to face the fact that they would never have children. They applied to the Spence-Chapin adoption agency but to no result. In later years, they found out that they were denied the opportunity for adoption due to Bill's drinking. (PIO 67, LR 34, RAA 147-148, NG 315, WPR 59)" 1923: "May, Lois experienced her third ectopic pregnancy which led to surgical removal of her ovaries. Bill W was so drunk he did not go to the hospital to see her. (BW-RT 128, LR 34, RAA 147, BW-FH 37)" 1930: "Dec, after a binge that started in Montreal and carried him into VT, Lois went to get Bill W. They finally returned to Clinton St and moved into a room there. Lois' mother was dying from bone cancer. (PIO 86-87, BW-FH 46)" "Dec 25, Christmas, Lois' mother died. Bill W, drunk for days beforehand, could not attend the funeral and stayed drunk for many days after. (SW 30-31, PIO 87, BW-RT 156, LR 82, BW-FH 46)" 1931: Bill W was able to work occasionally through 1931, but entered a phase of helpless drinking. Lois went to work at Macy's, earning $19 a week ($230 today) and that became their livelihood. (PIO 90, 128, BW-FH 47) _______________________________________ FROM A.A. COMES OF AGE: 1939: In AA Comes of Age, page 173, Bill W. says: "Then, on May first [1939], fresh calamity fell upon 182 Clinton Street. Lois and I had been living in a house which belonged to her parents before their death. The bank had taken it over and rented it to us for a nominal sum. The mortgage was so big the bank had found great difficulty in selling the place, so we had been able to stay there several years. But at this moment they found a purchaser and we had to get out. From its four floors the old brick house disgorged its furniture into a moving van. The warehouse had to pay the mover, since we could not. All our worldly goods were in hock with the warehouse-man, and they were to stay that way for two years more. Where could we go?" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7110. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill W''s Norwich University undergraduate major From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2011 5:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If it was Engineering (and I see no reason to doubt that), it was simply Engineering, assuming Norwich had the same curriculum in Bill's day as it had before 1914. (The only major change ca 1915 was the creation of the ROTC Program after much of the Cadet Corps went off to fight with Pershing in Mexico, and that certainly had nothing to do with the Engineering program.) Norwich, like West Point, was and is a military academy: it used to be the case that all cadets took the same first two years, whatever the major the cadet chose, and course differentiation by majors came only in junior year and beyond. Norwich did offer Civil as well as Military Engineering early on (the first Civil Engineering curriculum in this country, I believe), and now in the 21st century offers Electrical Engineering as one of three Engineering majors, but Norwich also now has students that are not part of the Corps of Cadets, which was not the case in Bill's time and before (including the 19th century). A lot of the USMA Military Engineers 1838-63 went into the Topographical Engineers -- Norwich's "Civil" Engineers built permanent roads and bridges (and lighthouses): they might be used by the Military (and were) but they were Civil Engineering, not Military. It may be of interest to some that in the last quarter of the 20th century, one major firm bearing a name including the word "Electric" constructed a number of power plants and electronic installations and whole military airports and bases in an Arab country -- and all the work was done under the aegis of the firm's public (civil) engineering division. The modern idea that Engineering must be divided into sub-specialties is (except for the one exception in 1838-63) just that -- a modern idea. I don't say Clancy would be wrong -- in fact I think he's right -- in asserting Bill's interest in electricity (his comments on the mysterious force of electricity in discussing dependence -- his putatively being hired by Edison as a research man), but I've been unable to find any indication that the Norwich Engineering curriculum was subdivided before very recent times. If anyone knows anything to the contrary, please let me know. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7111. . . . . . . . . . . . Group inventories From: Steven . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2011 5:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings everyone. Does anyone have any information on the origins of the AA Group inventory? I am aware of the traditions checklist and the concept checklist etc... What did we do before them? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7112. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Group inventories From: Lawrence Willoughby . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2011 10:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To the best of my knowledge the first group inventory was when there was a vote to withdraw from the Oxford Group. - - - - From: Steven Subject: Group inventories Date: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 Greetings everyone. Does anyone have any information on the origins of the AA Group inventory? I am aware of the traditions checklist and the concept checklist etc... What did we do before them? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7113. . . . . . . . . . . . group inventory From: shakey1aa . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/20/2011 10:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The man with the double stigma discussed in tradition 3 before Jimmy B (Ed) may be the 1st case of group inventory. In Jimmy's story he says the book was beginning to be written when he 1st came in (1938.) Jimmy's case may have been the second documented case of a group inventory. I'll be interested to read about earlier cases of a group inventory. YIS, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila, PA. USA "going to Montana soon" NAW15 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7114. . . . . . . . . . . . Early Grapevine editor Joe T. From: charlie brooke . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/19/2011 4:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings group: Does anyone have any information on Joe Trundle, an early Grapevine editor who was sent to Virginia to do a 12th Step call? I am also looking for information about his wife Charlotte, who was a secretary at the early GSO. Charliespins IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7115. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: group inventory From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/20/2011 5:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Group Inventory: these are meetings at which members work toward understanding how well the group is fulfilling its primary purpose. See section on Group Inventory, p.27, from The AA Group. I think it is Pamphlet 16. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7116. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Cecil Rose, When Man Listens From: mrpetesplace . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2011 5:05:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Just an announcement that the link in Message #6166 to Cecil Rose, When Man Listens, is no longer valid. You can still find a link to it by going to the AAStuff home page at http://aastuff.com/ But the actual text of Rose's book has now been moved to its own separate website: http://WhenManListens.com ________________________________________ Original message #6166 from "mrpetesplace" (peter at aastuff.com) AAStuff has just added the full text of "When Man Listens" by Cecil Rose, on http://aastuff.com/ see page http://aastuff.com/whenmanlistens.htm [THIS LINK IS NO LONGER VALID] Cecil Rose, When Man Listens (New York: Oxford University Press, 1937). Dedicated "to the Oxford Group, the growing army of men and women who are proving afresh for our generation that 'When man listens, God speaks; when man obeys, God works.'" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7117. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Group inventories From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2011 11:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Are we perhaps confusing a group inventory with a group conscience? A group takes its inventory using a suggested checklist (the Grapevine published one I believe). I have never read anything about a "vote" to withdraw from the Oxford Group by the New York contingent (I assume this is what the writer refers to?). I would be interested to see a reference or source for the statement? Akron withdrew in 1939, but there were many instances of documented group conscience by then. My understanding of the first recorded instance of "group conscience" is when Charlie Towns offered Bill a job at Towns as a "lay therapist" in 1936. The group got together and convinced Bill this was not in the best interest of the fledgling fellowship (the drunk squad of the Oxford Group). I believe you will find this documented in both Pass It On and A.A. Comes of Age. God Bless John B IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7118. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Cecil Rose, When Man Listens From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2011 10:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I long ago constructed a nice page about this book at: http://www.aabibliography.com/cecil_rose_when_man_listens_oxford_group_pamph let.\ html [1] There is a free pdf of this book which can be downloaded there. LD Pierce www.aabibliography.com __________________________________________ "mrpetesplace" wrote: > > Just an announcement that the link in Message #6166 to Cecil Rose, When Man Listens, is no longer valid. You can still find a link to it by going to the AAStuff home page at http://aastuff.com/ > > But the actual text of Rose's book has now been moved to its own separate website: http://WhenManListens.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7119. . . . . . . . . . . . Tuchy (Carl) Palmieri From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2011 11:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anybody know who Tuchy (Carl) Palmieri is? See http://www.authorsden.com/ae/viewworks_all.asp?Authorid=81922 Mr Palmeri seems to be reprinting a lot of Oxford Group books. Was he the one making the cecil rose book available on aastuff.com?? LD Pierce www.aabibliography.com ______________________________________ "mrpetesplace" wrote: > > Just an announcement that the link in Message #6166 to Cecil Rose, When Man Listens, is no longer valid. You can still find a link to it by going to the AAStuff home page at http://aastuff.com/ > > But the actual text of Rose's book has now been moved to its own separate website: http://WhenManListens.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7120. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Tuchy (Carl) Palmieri From: Kevin Short . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/23/2011 5:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is information about Tuchy in his http://www.healing-habits.com/ web site. Kevin Short ______________________________________ -----Original Message----- From: "diazeztone" Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 Subject: Tuchy (Carl) Palmieri Does anybody know who Tuchy (Carl) Palmieri is? See http://www.authorsden.com/ae/viewworks_all.asp?Authorid=81922 Mr Palmeri seems to be reprinting a lot of Oxford Group books. Was he the one making the cecil rose book available on aastuff.com?? LD Pierce www.aabibliography.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7121. . . . . . . . . . . . Photos of Shep Cornell and Cebra Graves From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/23/2011 11:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am trying to find pictures of Shep Cornell and Cebra Graves, but am having no luck in the finding any. Any photos will be much appreciated. Thanks! Bob Stonebraker (rstonebraker212 at comcast.net) 212 SW 18th Street Richmond, IN 47374 (765) 935-0130 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7122. . . . . . . . . . . . ANNIVERSARY OF BILL W''S DEATH From: Norm The Tinman . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/24/2011 12:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill Wilson died on this day -- 24th Jan 1971 -- in Miami, Florida. A sad day for the fellowship for sure -- but I know I will be grateful to him as long as I'm on this earth. Norm L. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7123. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Group inventories From: shakey1aa@yahoo.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/24/2011 12:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The question is not relevant. The time we are talking about had no GSO, there were only a couple groups. Thank God there was no service structure then to louse it up. Shakes Mike Gwirtz Phila,PA USA -----Original message----- From: jax760 To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 19:50:28 GMT+00:00 Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Group inventories Are we perhaps confusing a group inventory with a group conscience? A group takes its inventory using a suggested checklist (the Grapevine published one I believe). I have never read anything about a "vote" to withdraw from the Oxford Group by the New York contingent (I assume this is what the writer refers to?). I would be interested to see a reference or source for the statement? Akron withdrew in 1939, but there were many instances of documented group conscience by then. My understanding of the first recorded instance of "group conscience" is when Charlie Towns offered Bill a job at Towns as a "lay therapist" in 1936. The group got together and convinced Bill this was not in the best interest of the fledgling fellowship (the drunk squad of the Oxford Group). I believe you will find this documented in both Pass It On and A.A. Comes of Age. God Bless John B IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7124. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: ANNIVERSARY OF BILL W''S DEATH From: Sherry C. Hartsell . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/24/2011 5:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AMEN! sherry - - - - From: Norm The Tinman Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 Subject: ANNIVERSARY OF BILL W'S DEATH Bill Wilson died on this day -- 24th Jan 1971 -- in Miami, Florida. A sad day for the fellowship for sure -- but I know I will be grateful to him as long as I'm on this earth. Norm L. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7125. . . . . . . . . . . . ANNIVERSARY OF BILL W''S DEATH From: George Cleveland . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/24/2011 11:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Wasn't it also Bill & Lois' wedding anniversary? - - - - From G.C. the moderator: Yes, you're right, it sure was. "Jan 24, 1918 spurred by rumor that Bill W might soon go overseas, he and Lois were married at the Swedenborgian Church in Brooklyn, NY. Lois’ brother Rogers Burnham was best man." From the Narrative Timeline of AA History at http://silkworth.net/timelines/timelines_public/timelines_public.html - - - - > From: Norm The Tinman > > Bill Wilson died on this day -- 24th Jan 1971 -- > in Miami, Florida. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7126. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Cecil Rose, When Man Listens From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2011 2:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII OK, I reckon I'll put my two cents in. Cecil Rose, When Man Listens is also available from silkworth.net: http://www.silkworth.net/cecil_rose/cr_tablecontents.html WHEN MAN LISTENS by Cecil Rose Everyone can listen to God. When man listens, God speaks. When man obeys, God works. When men are changed, nations change. TO THE OXFORD GROUP THE GROWING ARMY OF MEN AND WOMEN WHO ARE PROVING AFRESH FOR OUR GENERATION THAT When man listens, God speaks; When man obeys, God works. Yours in service, Jim M, Go to silkworth.net >>> Visit us on Facebook! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7127. . . . . . . . . . . . Where was Ebby residing? From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2011 3:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In late summer, 1934, Ebby Thacher faced confinement at a Brattleboro, VT, mental institution after another drunken episode. However, Judge Graves released him to the care of several Oxford Groupers: Rowland Hazard in particular. After closing the large Thacher home at 110 Taconic Ave., in Manchester, VT., Ebby took up residence in Shep Cornell's Manhattan apartment for a short period, then moved into either the doubtlessly plush Oxford Group's Parish House (Calvary House), or perhaps instead, a rather dismal Mission several blocks away. Question: . . . . During this period, did Ebby reside at Calvary House, near 21st and Park Ave, and attend meetings at the mission? . . . . or did Ebby actually live IN Calvary Mission at 346 East 23rd Street? I have read reports of both circumstances, but I would appreciate reliable verification. Thank you. Bob S. ____________________ PS -- further question -- is the Calvary Mission still in existence? Bob Stonebraker 212 SW 18th Street Richmond, IN 47374 (765) 935-0130 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7128. . . . . . . . . . . . Who was asked to work for a liquor trade association ? From: Ben Hammond . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/28/2011 8:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Howdy from Tulsa .... Who was the AA asked to work for a liquor trade association mentioned in the 12 X 12 on pages 157-159 ... And which association was asking ?? Thanks for your great group...Old Ben, Tulsa OK Ben & Mary Lynn Hammond 5126 S. St. Louis Av Tulsa, Oklahoma 74105 918 313 4059 - - - - From Glenn C. There are partial parallels to this in the story of Marty Mann and the National Council on Alcoholism. See the following two books (both available from amazon.com): Sally Brown and David R. Brown, A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous (2001). An outstanding biography of one of our most important early AA leaders. Nancy Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of Alcoholism (2003). Describes how the Hughes Act was passed and financed (the basis of the modern legal treatment of alcoholics and the structure of most modern alcoholism treatment centers). http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kNO2.html http://hindsfoot.org/kNO3.html Nancy Olson's book told how Marty Mann was using grants from national alcohol industry associations to help support the National Council on Alcoholism for quite a few years, and had representatives of those groups on the NCA's board. Marty finally quit accepting money from them (and kicked them off the board) only fairly late in her career, after she began to realize the increasing possibilities of having the NCA's message seriously distorted by the liquor interests. Why increasing? For a number of years after AA was first founded, the organized liquor interests loved AA, because they could use it to battle against the prohibitionist groups who wanted to ban all alcohol sales in the United States. Look at AA, they could say, the problem isn't alcohol, it's the relatively small percentage of the population who are alcoholics. But once the prohibitionist movement pretty much died off in the U.S., the organized liquor trade began attacking and undercutting AA in every way they could think of. A large percentage of the alcohol sales in the United States go to practicing alcoholics, who consume enormously more alcohol per person than normal social drinkers. The organized liquor industry's advertising people are behind the "red wine keeps you from having heart attacks" articles that appear periodically in American newspapers and magazines. These ignore the fact that even just one glass of red wine a day raises your chances of dying from cancer of various kinds -- colon, breast, etc. -- and of dying from many other things -- liver disease, etc. -- to such a degree that, as an important Irish study showed, it raises the overall death rate, not lowers it. The Irish study showed that one drink a day for younger people (two drinks a day for older people), will take a year off your life span, statistically speaking. Also the totally false claims that modern AA "only has a 5% success rate" or that "it has been proven that the same percentage of alcoholics quit drinking who simply attempt to quit on their own." Also all of the "A.A. is a cult" anti-AA propaganda was egged on by them. Both are totally bogus claims, but the organized liquor industry has deep pockets when it comes to saturating the media with disinformation. Even some of our more naive AA people get sucked into believing some of this, and actually help the liquor industry publicize these claims. Nancy Olson's book still ought to be "must" reading for anyone who wants to seriously understand how politics, along with the struggle for money and power (where large numbers of psychiatrists and psychotherapists have sometimes been as anti-AA as the liquor industry), has distorted what Americans think they know about AA and alcoholism and the best methods of treating alcoholism. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7129. . . . . . . . . . . . Photo of Bill W. with hole in shoe From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2011 11:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone have a link to that picture of Bill W. with the hole in his shoe? (Feet up on the Office desk -- that's why you can see it.) Thanks... -cm IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7130. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Where was Ebby residing? From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/28/2011 5:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From John B. (jax760) and Richard Dillon - - - - From John B. (jax760 at yahoo.com) According to Mel B. in "EBBY: The Man Who Sponsored Bill W." Ebby lived at the Mission. The mission closed its doors for good in 1936. Best Regards, John B - - - - From: Richard Dillon According to pg 115 in Pass It On, Ebby stayed at the 23rd St. mission which, last time I checked in 2008, is a adult movie store! Rich D. Astoria N.Y IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7131. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Where was Ebby residing? From: Kevin Short . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/28/2011 8:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Kevin Short, Chris B., and Alex H. - - - - From: Kevin Short (kshort at oxmicro.com) There is now a McDonald's at the former location of the Calvary Mission at 346 East 23rd Street. Next door is an upscale residence. The Calvary Church (at Gramercy Park) has undergone recent renovations, specifically in the hall where Sam Shoemaker held gatherings. There is now a Thrift Shop in the basement, where the Oxford Group headquarters were located. Kevin S. - - - - From: "Chris B" (beachbuddah at gmail.com) I can't comment on Ebby's residence, but I can in response to your curiosity about the Mission at Calvary. While the parish no longer has their homeless shelter, they still offer a weekly soup kitchen and also a weekly food pantry. I both visited their website and also gave them a call; that's the info I got. Love and service, Chris B. - - - - From: "Alex H." (odat at utj.org) 346 East 23rd Street: you can look this up with Google Earth and see a picture of the area at street level. It looks like businesses at street level with condos above. The buildings look reasonably modern, no earlier than 1960. "Near 21st and Park Ave".... Calvary Episcopal Church (The Parish of Calvary-St. George's) 277 Park Avenue South, New York. It is still there and it looks old enough. Apparently it has merged with another church (St. George's Church) and they hold their services together at the Park Avenue location (The Calvary). Here is the web site... http://www.calvarystgeorges.org/ Here is a link that describes church organs but also notes the history of the church and names it as Rev. Shoemaker's church where the Oxford Groups began and the small description mentions AA ... "Under the Rev. Samuel Moor Shoemaker, III (1893-1963), the Calvary Church Mission in the Bowery became the virtual American headquarters for the Oxford Group during the 1930s. From this group came Alcoholics Anonymous." http://www.nycago.org/Organs/NYC/html/CalvaryEpis.html As a side note, Eric Metaxas attends the church now. He came to lecture here in Texas in mid-January, 2011 talking about his book, a biography of Rev. Bonhoeffer, of one of the men who tried to assassinate Hitler. (Recall the recent movie, "Valkyrie.") I am reading the book now. It is entitled, "Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy - A Righteous Gentile vs. the Third Reich". Looking in my Kindle edition of the book, I see the Calvary Church on Park Avenue is mentioned as the location where Rev. Buchman (the founder of the Oxford Groups) gave his most unfortunate remark regarding Hitler. (See Kindle location 5334-36, or so. I am not used to citing Kindle locations.)... "Later in August Buchman made his tragic remark: "I thank heaven for a man like Adolf Hitler, who built a front line of defense against the anti-Christ of Communism." It was a throwaway comment made in an interview with the New York World Telegram from his office at Calvary Church on Park Avenue and Twenty-first Street, and it did not reflect his wider thinking on the subject. Still, it illustrates how easily even the most serious Christians were initially taken in by Hitler's conservative pseudo-Christian propaganda." As I recall my reading (On the Tail of a Comet: The Life of Frank Buchman by Garth Lean), at the time, Rev. Frank Buchman was attempting to convince one of Hitler's henchmen (was it Goebbels?) to become a Christian. As it was portrayed in this biography Buchman was misled by Hitler's close adviser to seem as if he was interested in converting. This caused Buchman to soften his tone toward Hitler at first. The Bonhoeffer biography makes it clear that misleading Christians into thinking Hitler was pro-Christian was an early tactic of Hitler and Bonhoeffer lamented that such a prominent Christian as Rev. Buchman was taken in by this lie, though many Christians were at first. Bonhoeffer was the notable exception rather than the rule. BTW, I am a Jew but I tend to defend Christians using the logic of the tragic poem of Pastor Martin Niemoller... "First They Came" First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me. So now I speak out for the Christians in the hope that they will speak out for me if the time should come. Alex H. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7132. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Photo of Bill W. with hole in shoe From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2011 10:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Cindy, that is a great shot of Bill, but I don't know of any links. I have a photo which I took of this photo; it was taken at the GSO Archives. I'm sure the photo remains on one of the walls of the first vestibule. Rick, Illinois __________________________________ From GC the moderator: unfortunately, the Yahoo group system which we use for the AAHistoryLovers strips off all attachments before they arrive on our Pending Message board. It also does not allow us to add attachments to messages which we post. __________________________________ From: Cindy Miller Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 Subject: Photo of Bill W. with hole in shoe Does anyone have a link to that picture of Bill W. with the hole in his shoe? (Feet up on the Office desk -- that's why you can see it.) Thanks... -cm IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7133. . . . . . . . . . . . New York personal stories in 1st edit. of Big Book From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2011 4:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I find a substantial similarity in the style of writing between Hank Parkhurst's personal story, "The Unbeliever," and Fitz Mayo's personal story, "Our Southern Friend." It is known that Jim Scott helped edit the Akron stories, so I wonder whether some of the New York personal stories were also edited by a professional writer before entering the manuscript. I see where some stories were edited after the manuscript was assembled in February of 1939, but I mean before (or as) the Manuscript was first assembled -- before it was sent out for suggestions. Does anyone know? Bob S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7134. . . . . . . . . . . . Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Reinhold Niebuhr From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2011 6:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 07:01 1/28/2011, Kevin Short wrote: > >The Bonhoeffer biography makes it clear that misleading Christians >into thinking Hitler was pro-Christian was an early tactic of Hitler >and Bonhoeffer lamented that such a prominent Christian as Rev. >Buchman was taken in by this lie, though many Christians were at >first. Bonhoeffer was the notable exception rather than the rule. > Dietrich Bonhoeffer was close to Reinhold Niebuhr, the author of The Serenity Prayer. He stayed with the Niebuhrs in New York City before he returned to Nazi Germany to his fate. Bonhoeffer's sister, Christine, married Hans von Dohnanyi; they were the parents of Christoph, a well-known conductor. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7135. . . . . . . . . . . . Pamphlet Project Volume 5 From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2011 4:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have found a few more pamphlets that I have not seen or heard about yet. I am looking for date of initial pamphlet and picture of the cover of each listed below: ================================== What about the alcoholic employee medicine looks at alcoholics anonymous The society of Alcoholics Anonymous AA a uniquely American phenomena (Fortune Mag) Respecting Money your general service your role in the general service conference guide to a.a. our critics can be our benefactors suggestions for improving aa's relationship with the medical profession and the community ================================== Working on Volume 5, "What we used to look like --- What we look like now." Thanks in advance for your interest. John Wikelius (justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7136. . . . . . . . . . . . The four paragraphs added to Bill''s story From: theanonymous752 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2011 8:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Since getting the recent publication "The book that started it all," I have been intrigued by the four paragraphs from Bill's story that were added to the original typed manuscript. These four paragraphs, from page 12 of the current edition, are present at the beginning of the manuscript in hand written form. What I found most interesting is that these paragraphs are NOT in Bill's handwriting. They look to be in Henry Parkhurst's handwriting. Many thanks to Old Bill and John Barton for their posts (6930 and 4377) on this topic. Does anyone know any more about this? Would appreciate any information. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7137. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Photo of Bill W. with hole in shoe From: Bill . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2011 5:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It's possible to send a link to your images (if you want to make them available on the AAHistoryLovers with http://imageshack.us/ Greetings William (Belgium) - - - - > From GC the moderator: unfortunately, the Yahoo group system which we use for the AAHistoryLovers strips off all attachments before they arrive on our Pending Message board. It also does not allow us to add attachments to messages which we post. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7138. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Photo of Bill W. with hole in shoe From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2011 11:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Hole-in-shoe topic is a good reminder about the conditions during the Great Depression. Many people wore shoes with such holes. New shoes (or even getting them re-soled) was a luxury less important than buying food. I was a child during the Great Depression and had shoes with such holes, all the way through to the foot. I (and my brother) used to put pieces of cardboard on the inside to protect our foot, then change the cardboard frequently as it, too, wore through. Fortunately, my father was a millwright and worked in factories which used many machines driven by long, heavy, leather belts. Those belts were very durable but did wear out beyond repair sometimes. He brought home pieces of such belts (about 1/4 inch thick occasionally) and cut pieces to fit our shoe soles. These were nailed onto the shoe-uppers around the edge as cobblers still do today. There also were rubber, pre-sized shoe sole patches for sale which could be glued on the the worn bottoms. (unfortunately, the glue was often not of good quality, and after a few days might become loose, resulting in a "floppy walk" until again repaired. Les C Colorado Springs, CO [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7139. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: New York personal stories in 1st edit. of Big Book From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2011 11:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Since Parkhurst, Fitz, Bill (and others) were all close friends at that time in NYC, perhaps they actually sort of collaborated on their writings. From my reading (and looking at the marginal notes, etc) of the newly published "original printer copy", I think it is very likely that Hank had a major role in final clearance of the manuscript as it went to the printer. He had more business experience than Bill, and I assume the others were happy with his role. (Note his initials on each page.) Also, I can imagine that the word-by-word review was done by the "clerical type" folks after Bill added his ideas as to conceptual meanings. We should remember that many people had sent their comments ... then the folks in NYC must have entered those comments upon their working draft. Therefore, the handwriting analysis for everything does not mean that the writer had those thoughts ... they were simply the scribe for what had been received from many other folks. Les C Colorado Springs, Colorado IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7140. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Where was Ebby residing? From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2011 11:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Was not the site of the Calvary Mission the site of the original Waters Street Mission?? LD Pierce www.aabibliography.com - - - - --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Short wrote: > > From Kevin Short, Chris B., and Alex H. > > - - - - > > From: Kevin Short > (kshort at oxmicro.com) > > > There is now a McDonald's at the former location of the Calvary Mission at 346 East 23rd Street. Next door is an upscale residence. > > The Calvary Church (at Gramercy Park) has undergone recent renovations, specifically in the hall where Sam Shoemaker held gatherings. There is now a Thrift Shop in the basement, where the Oxford Group headquarters were located. > > Kevin S. > > - - - - > > From: "Chris B" > (beachbuddah at gmail.com) > > I can't comment on Ebby's residence, but I can in response to your curiosity about the Mission at Calvary. While the parish no longer has their homeless shelter, they still offer a weekly soup kitchen and also a weekly food pantry. I both visited their website and also gave them a call; that's the info I got. > > Love and service, > > Chris B. > > - - - - > > From: "Alex H." (odat at utj.org) > > 346 East 23rd Street: you can look this up with Google Earth and see a picture of the area at street level. It looks like businesses at street level with condos above. The buildings look reasonably modern, no earlier than 1960. > > "Near 21st and Park Ave".... > > Calvary Episcopal Church (The Parish of Calvary-St. George's) 277 Park Avenue South, New York. It is still there and it looks old enough. Apparently it has merged with another church (St. George's Church) and they hold their services together at the Park Avenue location (The Calvary). Here is the web site... > > http://www.calvarystgeorges.org/ > > Here is a link that describes church organs but also notes the history of the church and names it as Rev. Shoemaker's church where the Oxford Groups began and the small description mentions AA ... "Under the Rev. Samuel Moor Shoemaker, III (1893-1963), the Calvary Church Mission in the Bowery became the virtual American headquarters for the Oxford Group during the 1930s. From this group came Alcoholics Anonymous." > > http://www.nycago.org/Organs/NYC/html/CalvaryEpis.html > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7141. . . . . . . . . . . . Agatha Christie, Miss Marple, 1930 Oxford Group mystery story From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2011 11:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Slightly off topic, but I found an Agatha Christie Miss Marple 1930 oxford group mystery story called "Tape Measure Murder" from the book 13 clues for Miss Marple (Dodds and Mead, 1966). She evidently had another one unpublished: http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/2886 It was called "The Capture of Cerberus" http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208212/Unseen-60-years-Mail-proudly -pre\ sent-Agatha-Christies-lost-masterpiece-The-Capture-Cerberus.html [2] ========================================== The Capture Of Cerberus (she wrote a completely different short story with the same title in 1947) revolves around a dictator called August Hertzlein, who is clearly Adolf Hitler. In the course of the plot, Christie expresses the naive hope that Hitler could have been converted to Christianity and begun preaching love and peace. There really were people in the Thirties who believed this. One of them was Frank Buchman, founder of the Oxford Group, a hugely influential movement which has gone under various titles, including Moral Rearmament and Festival Of Light. The story was found in her longhand notebooks by John Curran, a Christie enthusiast and author in his own right. ========================================== LD Pierce www.aabibliography.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7142. . . . . . . . . . . . More on Agatha Christie, Tape Measure Murder, Oxford Group From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2011 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII you can read the entire story online at Tape Measure Murder: http://books.google.com/books?id=uloAmt3O63MC&lpg=PA127&ots=fJ5zziCVll&dq=ag atha\ %20christie%20oxford%20group&pg=PA115#v=onepage&q&f=false [3] Short link http://tiny.cc/christi_tape , scroll to page. ld pierce www.aabibliography.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7143. . . . . . . . . . . . The list of AA is not From: Jo Jo . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2011 11:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know where the list of "AA is not" can be found ? Years John Mears used to read it at the start of each meeting up in Brooksville. I think it was out of the Grapevine. Any help would be appreciated ..... Thanks Joe M (jmastromar at aol.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7144. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pamphlet Project Volume 5 From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2011 7:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII John, is this for some book or other publication? shakey mike - - - - In a message dated 2/4/2011 5:36:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, justjohn1431946@yahoo.com writes: I have found a few more pamphlets that I have not seen or heard about yet. I am looking for date of initial pamphlet and picture of the cover of each listed below: +What about the alcoholic employee +medicine looks at alcoholics anonymous +The society of Alcoholics Anonymous +AA a uniquely American phenomena (Fortune Mag) +Respecting Money +your general service +your role in the general service conference +guide to a.a. +our critics can be our benefactors +suggestions for improving aa's relationship with the medical profession and the community Working on Volume 5, "What we used to look like -- What we look like now." John Wikelius IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7145. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pamphlet Project Volume 5 From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/5/2011 10:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is a series I have been compiling for several years. volume one distilled factoids is aa books their dates and printings volume two alanon and alcoholism volume three grapevine volume four magazines associated with alcoholism, prohibition, temperance etc. includes cover art, date and title of article. volume five is pamphlets. ____________________________________________ --- On Fri, 2/4/11, Shakey1aa@aol.com wrote: John, is this for some book or other publication? shakey mike IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7146. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Where was Ebby residing? From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/5/2011 6:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Men Who Came to Believe "Samuel Hopkins Hadley took over as Superintendent of the McAuley Rescue Mission at 316 Water Street in 1886. From that time until his death in 1906 he helped convert hundreds, if not thousands, of hopeless drunks. Sam's son, Henry Harrison Hadley II, named after Sam's brother Coronal Henry Harrison Hadley, would also sober up and be converted after his father's death. Harry Hadley would later corroborate with Sam Shoemaker in opening the Calvary Mission on 23rd Street in Manhattan and become its first superintendent. At The Calvary Mission both Ebby Thacher and Bill Wilson would separately answer calls to come to the rail, kneel at the mercy seat, and experience the Power of conversion." - Excerpt from The Golden Road of Devotion John Barton - - - - Was not the site of the Calvary Mission the site of the original Waters Street Mission?? LD Pierce www.aabibliography.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7147. . . . . . . . . . . . The list of AA is not From: S Sommers . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/5/2011 10:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From S Sommers, Laurence Holbrook, G.C. the moderator, Azor521, and Gary Becktell - - - - From: S Sommers (scmws at yahoo.com) >>also from: "Kimball Rowe" (roweke at msn.com) There is a list in P-42 A Brief Guide to Alcoholics Anonymous called "What does AA NOT do?" It lists ten things starting with: 1. AA does not run membership drives.... This list on pages 10 and 11 of the pamphlet is the closest thing I know to an "AA is not." Thanks for everything. Sam S in Elkhart, Indiana - - - - From: "Laurence Holbrook" (email at LaurenceHolbrook.com) AAWS has a pamphlet "Information on A.A." - WHAT A.A. IS AND ISN'T - Information on Alcoholics Anonymous What A.A. Does Not Do A.A. does not: 1. Furnish initial motivation for alcoholics to recover 2. Solicit members 3. Engage in or sponsor research 4. Keep attendance records or case histories 5. Join "councils" of social agencies 6. Follow up or try to control its members 7. Make medical or psychological diagnoses or prognoses 8. Provide drying-out or nursing services, hospitalization, drugs, or any medical or psychiatric treatment 9. Offer religious services or host/sponsor retreats. 10. Engage in education about alcohol 11. Provide housing, food, clothing, jobs, money, or any other welfare or social services 12. Provide domestic or vocational counseling 13. Accept any money for its services, or any contributions from non-A.A. sources 14. Provide letters of reference to parole boards, lawyers, court officials, social agencies, employers, etc. It's available here, if this is what you are looking for: http://www.aa.org/lang/en/catalog.cfm?origpage=11&product=84 Also as a PDF on that page - Hope this helps Larry - - - - From G.C. the moderator: there's a copy of the list on the leaflet called "A.A. at a glance," which can be found at http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/f-1_AAataGlance.pdf What A.A. Does Not Do A.A. does not: Keep membership records or case histories. . . engage in or support research. . . join “councils” or social agencies (although A.A. members, groups and service offices frequently cooperate with them). . . follow up or try to control its members. . . make medical or psychiatric prognoses or dispense medicines or psychiatric advise. . . provide drying-out or nursing services or sanitariums. . . offer religious services. . . provide housing, food, clothing, jobs, money, or other welfare or social services. . . provide domestic or vocational counseling. . . provide letters of reference to parole boards, lawyers, court officials, social agencies, employers, etc. - - - - From: Azor521@aol.com >>also from "Gary Becktell" You might check these sites: http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/f-2_InfoonAA1.pdf gives a fourteen-item list: What A.A. Does Not Do A.A. does not: 1. Furnish initial motivation for alcoholics to recover 2. Solicit members 3. Engage in or sponsor research 4. Keep attendance records or case histories 5. Join “councils” of social agencies 6. Follow up or try to control its members 7. Make medical or psychological diagnoses or prognoses 8. Provide drying-out or nursing services, hospitalization, drugs, or any medical or psychiatric treatment 9. Offer religious services or host/sponsor retreats. 10. Engage in education about alcohol 11. Provide housing, food, clothing, jobs, money, or any other welfare or social services 12. Provide domestic or vocational counseling 13. Accept any money for its services, or any contributions from non-A.A. sources 14. Provide letters of reference to parole boards, lawyers, court officials, social agencies, employers, etc. http://www.alcoholicsanonymous.ie/opencontent/default.asp?itemid=13§ion= Abou\ t+Us [4] gives a ten-item list: What AA Does Not Do 1. Solicit membership or try to persuade anyone to join A.A. who does not want to. 2. Keep membership records or case histories. 3. Engage in or sponsor research. 4. Join counselling or social agencies, although A.A. members frequently co-operate with them. 5. Make medical or psychological diagnosis or prognosis. 6. Provide drying out or nursing services, hospitalisation, drugs or any medical or psychiatric treatment. 7. Engage in education or propaganda about alcohol. 8. Provide housing, clothes, food, jobs, money or other welfare or social services. 9. Provide domestic counselling. 10. Accept money for its service or any money from non A.A. sources. ____________________________________________ Original question was from: Jo Jo (jmastromar at aol.com) Date: Friday, February 4, 2011 Does anyone know where the list of "AA is not" can be found? Years John Mears used to read it at the start of each meeting up in Brooksville. I think it was out of the Grapevine. Any help would be appreciated ..... Thanks Joe M IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7148. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The list of AA is not -- a list from the Grapevine From: Dale . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/6/2011 1:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Joe, found this on a site after a google search and a few minutes of wading through "other stuff." Is this the list you recall being read? The site attributes it to the Grapevine (January 1991). To the site owner's credit they sought permission from and give credit to the Grapevine. Best regards, Dale P, 6-5-87, Longmont CO ________________________________________ WHAT AA IS NOT 1. AA is not an institutional clearing program. It does not promise that we will receive suspended sentences, probations, or paroles. AA does not promise conditional releases, stays of proceedings, or the early releases from prisons or hospitals. 2. AA is not a "dating game" nor is it a lonely hearts club or a place to find a temporary or permanent lover. 3. AA is not an employment agency or manpower training program. It does not promise that we'll all find jobs, get rich, or even become financially solvent. 4. AA is not a charitable organization like the welfare system or the Salvation Army. It doesn't promise that we'll be loaned money or given cigarettes. AA is not a bank or a credit union, and is not set up to provide funds for anyone. 5. AA is not a church program or a religious organization (although many groups rent church spaces to hold their meetings.) AA does not force religion down anyone's throat. It does encourage us to develop and nourish individual spiritual ways here and now, but it doesn't demand that we believe anything. Saving souls and making converts is not the purpose of AA. 6. AA does not promise that we'll never be hurt or feel pain. When AA talks about serenity, it is not talking about the absence of calamity but peace of heart, mind and spirit in the midst of calamity. AA is not saying that we'll have no more problems; it's saying that we'll be given what we need to deal with, and go through, those problems. The absence of troubles is not the purpose of AA. Reprinted by permission of: AA Grapevine 1991 Grapevine Inc. January edition IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7149. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Where was Ebby residing? From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/8/2011 4:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The below has Bill W talking about going down 23rd Street and going to the mission. So I think it leaves 316 Waters Street out of any ties to Bill Wilson at the time he was drinking in 1934. Wilson's first visit to Calvary Mission is described in the book "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" as follows: "One day, while feeling pretty maudlin, I got a great idea. I figured it was time I did some religious investigation on my own hook. Remembering that Ebby, a old drinking friend of mine, had been lodged by members of the Oxford Group at Sam Shoemaker's Calvary Church Mission. I thought I would go and see what they did down there. I left the subway at Fourth Ave. and 23rd St. It was a good long walk along 23rd St., so I began stopping in bars. I spent most of the afternoon in bars and forgot all about the Mission. At nightfall I found myself in excited conversation in a bar with a Finn named Alec. He said he had been a sailmaker and a fisherman in the old country. I thought again of the Mission. Over there I would find fishers of men. Oddly enough it seemed like a wonderful idea." "I sold Alec on coming along and soon we reeled in the front door of the Mission. Tex Francisco, an ex-alky in charge was right there to meet us. He not only ran the place, he proposed to run us out of it! This made us quite sore as we thought of our good intentions." "Just then Ebby turned up grinning. He said, 'What about a plate of beans?' After the food, Alec and I had slightly clearer heads. Ebby told us there would be a meeting in the Mission pretty soon. Would we like to go? Certainly we would go; that's why we were there. The three of us were soon sitting on one of those hard wooden benches that filled the place. I had never seen a Mission before, and I shivered a little when I looked at the derelict audience. There was a smell of sweat and alcohol. I could well imagine how much suffering was represented in this gathering." AA Comes of Age, as quoted in: http://www.examiner.com/addiction-in-baltimore/baltimore-born-reverend-dr-sa m-sh\ oemaker-has-ties-to-local-treatment-center-and-aa-beginnings [5] ___________________________________________ The waters street mission was at 316 Waters St., see below: http://www.correctionhistory.org/html/chronicl/mcauley/mcauley.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7150. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The list of AA is not From: last_town . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2011 11:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This information is also found in The AA Group pamphlet (P16) http://www.aa.org/catalog.cfm?category=4&product=41 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7151. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: New York personal stories in 1st edit. of Big Book From: JoeA . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/10/2011 5:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I with I had the memory I once had, but I was told that Parkhurst re-wrote several bits of other people's stories in the first edition, and that it caused some friction in the New York group. But I cannot remember the source of that tidbit. Perhaps someone here has the reference. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7152. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: New York personal stories in 1st edit. of Big Book From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/10/2011 4:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Below taken from: http://www.aabibliography.com/historybb.htm (Home: http://www.aabibliography.com/index.html ) A History of The Big Book - Alcoholics Anonymous Written by Donald B. Copied by permission. (Minor editing by Lyle P. and Byron B.) The main text was completed, and as was the custom in those days, many books had a section of personal stories, such as Science and Health by Mary Baker Eddy, Twice Born Men, For Sinners Only, and The Changed Life. The New York stories were very slow coming in. Hank and Bill tried editing them, polishing and occasionally rewriting them, which was probably a mistake. An alcoholic has pride in his own story, drunk or sober, and they felt their stories should not be tampered with. Meanwhile in Akron, Dr. Bob had sobered up a newspaper writer named Jim Scott, who was helping the boys from Akron write their stories. Scott was born in Australia, and graduated from the University of Glasgow, then came to America shortly before World War I. He had worked for a time as a reporter for a Pittsburgh newspaper, then held a series of jobs, losing most of them because of drunkenness. After service in the Canadian Army, he came to Akron in 1919 as a reporter on Goodyear Tire's Wingfoot Clan, advancing to editor, but resigning in 1926 because of drinking problems. In 1930, he began to trade and sell books to support his drinking, opening a shop that soon failed. He then loaded a car with books and traveled around the country selling them to libraries and historical societies. Job after job, finally he landed a job with the Federal Writer's Project, and edited the first edition of the Texas Federal Writer's Project Book. When he finished that project, a friend put him on a bus to Akron, where he arrived drunk. Scott took his last drink in 1937. Nineteen of the stories in the first edition came from Akron. Obvious that the greatest assets of alcoholics in helping others recover was their personal stories, this constituted over half of the text. This created a big problem in Akron because many of the Akronites did not want the book printed. Bill D., AA number three, did not agree with the book project and would not allow his story to be used. It was not until the second edition in 1955 that Bill D.'s story was first printed. Bill Wilson traveled to Akron, interviewed Bill D., and personally wrote the story. Scott worked with the drunks on their stories and helped rewrite them. Sue Smith-Windows was going to Business College at the time and typed some of the Akron stories. In his book, which is now owned by one of my friends, Archie Towbridge, the first member in Detroit, writes, I write my story in the small hours of the morning, sometime in late December or early January, 1939, just ahead of the printer's deadline. I had been sober four months. The story says six months as due time was allowed for publication. My perspective was very limited and the story was unduly brief. Sixteen years later, I was asked to rewrite it for the first new edition. Archie also writes, To the best of my knowledge, this copy is one of the first hundred copies to be bound. The reason only one hundred were bound was that Works Publishing Company did not have any money to pay the printer! By the end of January, Bill wanted to rush the book into print. Then some one sounded a note of caution: What if the book contained errors? What if the book was offensive to the religious? So four hundred multilith loan copies were printed for evaluation. Comments were offered. Bill had written Alcoholics Anonymous on the cover page, but many in the New York area and more in the Akron area found this title unacceptable; the other title was The Way Out, which had become very popular. Other titles under consideration included: Empty Glass, Dry Frontiers, and Bill even briefly considered The Will W. Movement, but the choices came down to two: The Way Out, or Alcoholics Anonymous. So, Bill called Fitz Mahugh, who was in Washington, D.C., visiting family, and asked him to go to the Library of Congress and see how many books were already titled The Way Out. And if there were any named Alcoholics Anonymous. Fitz wired back saying there were twelve books titled The Way Out but none titled Alcoholics Anonymous. That settled it. No one wanted to have the thirteenth of anything. Actually the name Alcoholics Anonymous had appeared as early as July 15, 1938, in a letter from Bill to Dick Richardson, and according to a letter from Dr. Richards of Johns Hopkins on July 18,1938. Bill at the time was using the name as the working title of the book and the name of the fellowship. Comments came in from New Jersey. A psychiatrist, Dr. Howard, observed that the message of insanity and death so vividly portrayed in the book as consequences of alcoholism were so persuasive that no further force was necessary, thus the language was softened and A.A.'s debt to medicine deepened. From religion, Dr. Harry E. Fosdick returned his copy without criticism, a favorable book review, and encouraged Alcoholics Anonymous to release it as they wished. Morgan Ryan, recently out of Rockland Asylum, took the manuscript to the New York Archdiocesan committee on publications. According to Morgan, that committee had nothing but the best to say about AA and the book. They did ask just one small thing, that the last line of Bill's story be changed from Heaven to Utopia. Finally, the manuscript was completed and sent to Tom Uzzell, a professor at New York University for final editing. Dr. Uzzell was a past editor of Colliers Magazine, contributor to The Saturday Evening Post, and writer of several books. Among the books he had edited was The Good Earth, If I Had Four Apples, and many other best sellers. He was probably the top person in the business of preparing manuscripts for publication. In a letter to Hank, he said, I spent last evening with a manuscript, I knew, of course, what the document was, but upon reading additional chapters and surveying the job as a whole, I found myself deeply moved at times, full of amazement, almost incredibly, and during most of the reading I was extremely sympathetic. My feeling at the moment is that you should certainly hold on to the publication, and distribution of this volume if you can. It ought to go far and wide and handsome, and make those concerned a big profit. You have here an extremely urgent problem, you have a successful defiance of medicine, you have a religious story, you have a deeply human story, and lastly you have a whole flock of happy endings. I don't know what else you could want for an excellent book. I believe in it most emphatically. The whole book needs final shaping of a professional hand. But it is interesting that he ends the letter with, I understand better now the enthusiasm you revealed when you talked to me about this work, I thought you were exaggerating somewhat, but now I have joined the choir. They paid Dr.Uzzell $380. Finally, they were ready to go. They went up to see Mr. Blackwell at Cornwall Press. He said how many copies do you want? They said just print a few, say 5,000 copies. Blackwell said how much are you going to put down, they said well, maybe $500 on account. ________________________________________ Orig. question from (joeadams1950 at gmail.com) I with I had the memory I once had, but I was told that Parkhurst re-wrote several bits of other people's stories in the first edition, and that it caused some friction in the New York group. But I cannot remember the source of that tidbit. Perhaps someone here has the reference. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7153. . . . . . . . . . . . Red Road meetings From: jaxena77 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/10/2011 8:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Do any members have information on whether or not there is a distinction between a Red Road meeting and an AA meeting on reservations? I've heard that Red Road meetings are not AA meetings, but I also read an article in the Grapevine "The longhouse" that talks about the author's home group being The Red Road AA meeting. Are Red Road meetings a type of 12-step meeting that is distinct from AA or a common AA meeting name on some reservations? I am also looking for any info on the first meetings to take place on reservations in Northern America. I already have quite a bit of information on Maynard B. and Tall Man. I'm looking for older stories if possible. Thank you! Jackie B IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7154. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anne Smith: Mother of AA? From: kcb007_99 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2011 1:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dick B., The Oxford Group and Oxford Anonymous, rev. ed. (Kihei, HI: Paradise Research Publications, 1998), page 11, footnote 31 reviews evidence that Bill W. called Anne Smith a "founder" of A.A. and the "Mother of A.A." - - - - Message #7086 from (aalogsdon at aol.com) asked the question: In several of the postings Anne Smith is cited as the Mother of the first group in Akron. I have heard quoted that she was the Mother of AA. Is this quotation in print somewhere? Thanks. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7155. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anne Smith: Mother of AA? From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2011 3:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Baileygc23 and Charles Knapp - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) I am sure that the below is not the only instance of Bill W's making the statement, but it is a start. Bill W., The Language of the Heart, 353-54: Anne was the wife of Dr. Bob, cofounder of Alcoholics Anonymous. She was, quite literally, the mother of our first group, Akron Number One. Her wise and beautiful counsel to all, her insistence that the spiritual come before anything else, her unwavering support of Dr. Bob in all his works; all these were virtues which watered the uncertain seed that was to become A.A. . . . In the full sense of the word, she was one of the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous. - - - - From: Charles Knapp (cpknapp at yahoo.com) This is from the July 1949 Grapevine: Anne S. ANNE S. has taken her leave of us. She died on Wednesday June 1. To the hundreds who really knew her, this was a meaningful and moving event. With those who knew her not, I wish to share the inspiration which she gave to Lois and me. Anne was the wife of Dr. Bob, co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. She was, quite literally, the mother of our first Group, Akron No. One. HER wise and beautiful counsel to all, her insistence that the spiritual come before anything else, her unwavering support of Dr. Bob in all his works; all these were virtues which watered the uncertain seed that was to become A.A. Who but God could assess such a contribution? We can only say that it was priceless and magnificent. In the full sense of the word, she was one of the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous. Not a soul who knew Anne will say that she is really gone. Each knows that her abiding love and influence will live forever. And none knows better than Dr. Bob, Lois and I, who saw these things from the beginning. Nor do we think we shall never see her again. For, like nearly all our fellow A.A. members, we believe there is no death. She is only out of our sight and hearing for a little while. Bill W. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7156. . . . . . . . . . . . More problems keeping silkworth.net online From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2011 9:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Glenn Chesnut, Mitchell K., and Jim Myers ================================ (1) FROM GLENN CHESNUT Jim Myers has reported more problems keeping silkworth.net online. His server has raised his rates, because so many people are using his site. I am posting this for all the folks on the AAHistoryLovers because this is more than just the silkworth.net problem. The issue being raised is one that is beginning to have a major impact on AA history and archives in general. It is increasingly becoming clear that the best way to make important documents, photos, etc., available to historians and archivists is through online sites like silkworth.net. There seems to be much less censorship involved (so far anyway), and the material is made available where everyone without exception has access to it. Also, you don't have to travel halfway across the North American continent (or halfway around the world) to look at the material. They are also becoming recognized as the best way to make good state and local AA history accessible. But when these online archives become large enough, they become expensive to maintain. Not expensive AT ALL in comparison with maintaining an archives in a building with hard copies stored in file cabinets, but online archives aren't free. At any rate, I thought it important to keep everyone posted on what is happening. Glenn Chesnut, Moderator of the AAHistoryLovers Manager of the Hindsfoot.org website. ================================ (2) FROM MITCHELL K. Maybe opening up a different site just for MP3 downloads as they are data guzzlers. I might suggest speaking with the folks at XA-Speakers.org for ideas. I understand as alcoholics in recovery for the need to both address everything and be all things to all people but being all things to all people, not offending anyone, not scaring anyone away and kissing every boo boo has been the downfall of Alcoholics Anonymous (IMO). I think Silkworth has been the benchmark for a totally fair and unbiased viewpoint of AA history on the Net. NO ONE comes close. It's OK for one site to put together all the biased views in one place which Silkworth does quite well. Maybe it is time to diversify to different but linked sites. Unfortunately, if the PayPal donations cannot sustain unbiased reporting then the supported but biased sites will prevail. There are too many out there who say they offer freedom of choice but leave out the actual choice is the choice offered. Yes, you are offered a choice just as long as it is the choice believed by the people who offered the choice. Yes, you can believe whatever you want just as long as it matches what we believe. If people really want true freedom of information, maybe those who can afford to contribute more will. If not, we all know whose truth each wants us to believe. ================================ (3) FROM JIM MYERS From: Jim Myers (jim.myers56 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, February 6, 2011 Subject: Doteasy Account for silkworth.net to stay online Just wanted to let you know I ave run into a problem with my hosting provider (doteasy.com) for silkworth.net. It appears that silkworth.net is more popular than I expected. They have sent me an email stating that I must change my current service to an upgrade which is more than I can pay. You can read the details below. They expect for me to pay as much as $19.95 more per month? I am dumbfounded by their request. Last month, silkworth.net had more than 72,000 visitors and there has been as much mp3 downloads as 24 GB in two days. I am open for sugestions. The Pay Pal link is not doing very well, and I fear that doteasy.com may limit my current abilities as to what I can do or not do or post from silkworth.net. The current status as far as stats for silkworth.net for last month alone were 1,530,428 total hits and 1,251,709 total files and 283,444 total pages and 72,998 total visitors. I am not sure how to respond to their email (below) yet, and I am open to suggestions. Please advise me as what would be the best course of action to take. A little uneasy, Yours in service, Jim M, http://www.silkworth.net/ _______________________________________ From: Doteasy To: jim.myers56@yahoo.com Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 3:00 PM Hello James, It has come to our attention that your account ( silkworth.net ) used a lot of traffic with your MP3 download. Your account has used up 24GB of traffic in just 2 days. Please note that you are responsible for ensuring that your use of the service does not consume excessive system or network resources that disrupts the normal use of the service through, but not limited to, spawning multiple processes, consuming excessive amounts of memory, CPU or bandwidth usage. - http://www.doteasy.com/Terms/index.cfm?T=TAC#14 Also, please note that our shared hosting server is not meant to act as a file sharing/media streaming server: http://www.doteasy.com/Terms/index.cfm?T=TAC#5 We advise you to consider VPS or dedicated server. With VPS (Virtual Private Server) or Dedicated hosting, your server is dedicated to your needs, which will allow you to have more control, such as using cron jobs, or installing custom server software such as streaming media, etc. You can learn more about them at the following links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_private_server http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedicated_server You can refer to the following links for more details and pricing: http://in2net.com/VPSHosting/#package http://www.in2net.com/DedicatedServers/ Please let us know if you would like to upgrade to VPS or dedicated server and which plan you are interested in. Thank you. Regards, Philip Doteasy Customer Service IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7157. . . . . . . . . . . . The Broad Highway From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2011 3:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Bob S. (Charlottesville, Virginia) (bsdds at comcast.net) BIG BOOK VS. THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT I got this question about the "broad highway" from a friend of mine in Lubbock: In the Bible, the term "broad highway" is used in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. We are supposed to take the less used narrow path which leads to salvation instead of the broad path/highway leads to perdition (cf. Hank Williams, "Lost highway" at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcIgQWdWWag ). ======================================== THE USE OF THIS TERM IN THE BIBLE: See Matthew 7:12-14 in the Revised Standard Version "So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets. Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few." And in the King James Version (Authorized Version): "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." ======================================== But the AA Big Book refers to the road to sobriety and recovery as the "broad highway." ======================================== IN THE BIG BOOK: (p. 46) "Much to our relief, we discovered we did not need to consider another's conception of God. Our own conception, however inadequate, was sufficient to make the approach and to effect a contact with Him. As soon as we admitted the possible existence of a Creative Intelligence, a Spirit of the Universe underlying the totality of things, we began to be possessed of a new sense of power and direction, provided we took other simple steps. We found that God does not make too hard terms with those who seek Him. To us, the Realm of Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive; never exclusive or forbidding to those who earnestly seek. It is open, we believe, to all men." (p. 55) "We finally saw that faith in some kind of God was a part of our make-up, just as much as the feeling we have for a friend. Sometimes we had to search fearlessly, but He was there. He was as much a fact as we were. We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found. It was so with us. We can only clear the ground a bit. If our testimony helps sweep away prejudice, enables you to think honestly, encourages you to search diligently within yourself, then, if you wish, you can join us on the Broad Highway. With this attitude you cannot fail. The consciousness of your belief is sure to come to you." (p. 75) "We pocket our pride and go to it, illuminating every twist of character, every dark cranny of the past. Once we have taken this step, withholding nothing, we are delighted. We can look the world in the eye. We can be alone at perfect peace and ease. Our fears fall from us. We begin to feel the nearness of our Creator. We may have had certain spiritual beliefs, but now we begin to have a spiritual experience. The feeling that the drink problem has disappeared will often come strongly. We feel we are on the Broad Highway, walking hand in hand with the Spirit of the Universe." ======================================== Williams James referred to the "broad highway" in his book "The Meaning of Truth: A Sequel to 'Pragmatism.'" There is a book published in 1910, a romance novel, by Jeffery Farnol entitled The Broad Highway, and there is even a recovery website called the Broad Highway. But where did Bill Wilson and the first 100 come up with the terminology "the Broad Highway" ? ? ? Bob S. (Charlottesville, Virginia) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7158. . . . . . . . . . . . Emmet Fox''s death From: Steven . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2011 5:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know how Emmet Fox passed away? Steven - - - - From Glenn C. the moderator -- see this chapter in a Ph.D. thesis from South Africa: pp. 22-23 describe Fox's death (note also pp. 20-21). http://uir.unisa.ac.za/bitstream/handle/10500/2026/02chapter2.pdf;jsessionid =D02\ E1DD9FBEF011F8703EC080C32656D?sequence=2 [6] This little biography of Emmet Fox makes VERY fascinating reading. I recommend the whole piece very strongly to anyone who is interested in AA history. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7159. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Red Road meetings From: Tim S . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2011 2:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Tim S., gerrynmt, and Jim in Central Ohio - - - - From: "Tim S" (timschluter at email.com) Jackie B, The short answer is "Yes". Though many understand them as "a type of 12-step meeting that is distinct from AA", others understand them as "a common AA meeting name". The often spoken phrase "traveling the Red Road" refers to Native American spirituality and even more specifically to a deliberate return to (or incorporation of) traditional native values and practices. So if you were to hear me use that statement you would understand it as meaning the practice of traditional customs. The meeting may have a different format than what most people are accustomed to at off-reservation meetings. The Red Road to Well-briety often incorporates such traditional spiritual practices as smudging, totems, native language, high regard for traditional values. My brothers and I consider Red Road to be AA. If we are in the presence of someone who interprets it otherwise, then that is fine, we don't argue the point, we accept it and try to understand their perspective. The Twelve Steps are interpreted through the Medicine Wheel as opposed to the linear way they are presented at most AA meeting. There are many differences which I am more than willing to share with you if you wish additional detail. To a brother or sister from Turtle Island the practices are spiritually edifying. To one not familiar with native traditions and practices they would seem unusual. I encourage you to attend a Red Road meeting with an open mind, and should you choose to refer to one as "indian" don't be offended if in turn they refer to you as a "cowboy". Tim - - - - From: "gerrynmt" (traditionsway at yahoo.com) Jackie, Red Road meetings are not AA. They are a part of White Bison Inc. which is a private, non-profit organization that, like others, utilizes the twelve steps of AA. In their interpretation, they relate the steps to general Native American traditons. White Bison Inc. uses their own literature along with AA literature during their meetings. White Bison Inc. and the "Red Road of Wellbriety" have helped many people recover from alcoholism and other addictions, however, while many participants believe they are doing AA, they are not. - - - - From: Sober186@aol.com I don't know if this is the same Red Road to which you refer, but there is information on a Red Road Recovery movement here: http://milkmanscircle.net/Milkman%27s%20CircleD2/Templates/red_road.htm RED ROAD ~ A Return To The Circle (16 Steps of Empowerment) 1. We affirm we have the power to take charge of our lives and stop being dependent on substances or other people for our self-esteem and security. 2. We come to believe the Great Spirit awakens the healing wisdom within us when we open ourselves to that power. 3. We make a decision to become our authentic selves and trust in the healing power of the truth. 4. We examine our beliefs, addictions, and dependent behavior in the context of living in a hierarchal, patriarchal culture. 5. We share with another person and the universe all those things inside of us for which we feel shame and guilt. 6. We affirm and enjoy our strengths, talents, and creativity, striving not to hide these qualities to protect others' egos. 7. We become willing to let go of shame, guilt, and any behavior that keeps us from loving ourselves and others. 8. We make a list of people we have harmed and people who have harmed us and take steps to clear out negative energy by making amends and sharing our grievances in a respectful way. 9. We express love and gratitude to others, and increasingly appreciate the wonder of life and the blessings we do have. 10. We continue to trust our reality and daily affirm that we see what we see, we know what we know, and we feel what we feel. 11. We promptly acknowledge our mistakes and make amends when appropriate, but we do not say we are sorry for things we have not done, and we do not cover up, analyze, or take responsibility for the shortcomings of others. 12. We seek out situations, jobs, and people that affirm our intelligence, perceptions, and self-worth to avoid situations or people who are hurtful, harmful, or demeaning to us. 13. We take steps to heal our physical bodies, organize our lives, reduce stress, and have fun. 14. We seek to find our inward calling and develop the will and wisdom to follow it. 15. We accept the ups and downs of life as natural events that can be used as lessons for our growth. 16. We grow an awareness that we are inter-related with all living things and we contribute to restoring peace and balance on Mother Earth. Jim in Central Ohio _____________________________________________ --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "jaxena77" wrote: > > Do any members have information on whether or not there is a distinction between a Red Road meeting and an AA meeting on reservations? > > I've heard that Red Road meetings are not AA meetings, but I also read an article in the Grapevine "The longhouse" that talks about the author's home group being The Red Road AA meeting. > > Are Red Road meetings a type of 12-step meeting that is distinct from AA or a common AA meeting name on some reservations? > > I am also looking for any info on the first meetings to take place on reservations in Northern America. I already have quite a bit of information on Maynard B. and Tall Man. I'm looking for older stories if possible. > > Thank you! > Jackie B > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7160. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Are there any Wikipedia editors here who know about the Washingtonians? From: A from near Maldon, England, . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/12/2011 6:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII That warning below is good reading BUT whether we like it or not Wikipedia is the first line of enquiry nowadays for many millions of people. The editors go to considerable lengths to root out flawed entries and there are ways for anyone to complain. I know whenever I see something wrong or missing I update it if I am technically capable or at worst alert someone else that what is written is wrong, so if there is stuff out there that give a false impression we can do our bit by taking action, that was the purpose of my original posting, I hope some here have checked over there and from their knowledge decided whether correction is needed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washingtonian_movement +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Lawyer" wrote: > > A WARNING ABOUT USING WIKIPEDIA uncritically as a source of information about Alcoholics Anonymous history, from Jay Lawyer: > > That is the trouble with using Wikipedia as any kind of source for information. Anybody can write anything they want and unless somebody comes along to change it, there it is for people to take as Gospel. > We of Alcoholics Anonymous have enough inaccurate info already, don't need to add to it. > > Jay > > ___________________________________________ > > Original Message: A complaint about the Wikipedia article on the Washingtonians said: > > The article is fundamentally inaccurate -- even the names of the six founders are partly inaccurate (taken from a non-authoritative 1878 secondary source). It doesn't need references; it needs a thorough rewrite. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7161. . . . . . . . . . . . Indiana history websites From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2011 1:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here are AA History websites for Indiana localities, plus, a Big Book History Site: Richmond, Indy, State of Indiana history websites, plus a Big Book AA History Website: http://www.area23aa.org/a/view/Main/Richmond Web address for Richmond, Indiana, AA History (50 pages) http://www.area23aa.org/a/view/Main/Richmond Web address for Richmond, Indiana, AA History. (50 pages) http://www.aamuncie.org/files/Indianapolis_AA_History_July_2009.pdf Web address for Indianapolis AA History (40 pages) http://www.aamuncie.org/files/History_of_AA_in_Indiana.pdf History of Indiana AA (9.99 MB) (40 pages) (entire state) http://www.aabibliography.com/historybb.htm Web address for Big Book History (21 pages) (The Richmond, IN, links may take a few minutes to open.) Bob S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7162. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Indiana history websites From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2011 4:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For more on Indiana A.A. history also see: How A.A. Came to Indiana -- http://hindsfoot.org/Nhome.html ================================ "J. D. Holmes and the First A.A. Group in Indiana: Evansville, April 23, 1940" -- J. D. was from the original Akron A.A. group, the tenth person to get sober in A.A. "Early Evansville A.A." ================================ "Doherty Sheerin and the Founding of A.A. in Indianapolis: October 28, 1940" Neil S. (Fishers IN), "History of Indianapolis A.A." "Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe) and the Golden Books" ================================ "The Third A.A. Group Started in Indiana: Fort Wayne, December 1941" John Barleycorn, "A Nun's Story: Sister Ruth Finds God in the A.A. Meetings" "I'm not a Nice Guy," memorial for Stanley "Skeets" Richards ================================ "The St. Joseph River Valley Region: South Bend, February 22, 1943" -- South Bend, Mishawaka, Elkhart, and Goshen The Factory Owner & the Convict The St. Louis Gambler & the Railroad Man Ken M., "Drunks Are a Mess" "Brownie's and the Dignitaries Sympathy Groups" ================================ "The Books the Good Old-Timers Read" ================================ "The A.A. Prison Group Founded in 1944 at the Indiana State Prison at Michigan City" ================================ "Early Black A.A. along the Chicago-Gary-South Bend Axis" "The Wisdom of Goshen Bill" ================================ "Adventure of Recovery: The Beginnings of A.A. in Anderson, June 1943-February 9, 1947" ================================ Richmond 1945-46 -- The story began when Bob B., a paint store owner in Richmond, got sober by visiting a business associate in Philadelphia, a man named Jim Burwell who had gotten sober in 1938 and had started A.A. in that city. Jim's story in the Big Book is called "The Vicious Cycle" (it is on page 219 in the current 4th edition). ================================ "Kosciusko County: September 30, 1946" ================================ "Gary, Indiana: John Shaifer's Lead" ================================ "A Brief History of A.A. in Delaware County in Indiana" by Bruce C. (Muncie, Indiana) ================================ "The Lafayette area: January 1948" -- the home of Purdue University, on the banks of the Wabash river ================================ "The First A.A. Group in Rensselaer: early 1948" ================================ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7163. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Emmet Fox''s death From: Charlie C . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2011 11:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The NY Times ran an obituary on 8/18/1951. In brief it noted that Fox had died the week previous, while in Paris. At the time of his death he was pastor of the Church of the Healing Christ in NYC. Fox is described as having come to the U.S. from England in 1930, where in his younger life he had been an electrical engineer. His original church met in rooms in several hotels, including the Waldorf-Astoria. His talks as the head of what was then called the "First Church of Divine Science" drew large crowds in the 1930s. The obituary also notes that his book "The sermon on the mount: the key to success in life, and The Lord's prayer: an interpretation"(a popular and influential title in early AA) was a popular success, running through a number of editions. Charlie Cowling IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7164. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Broad Highway From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2011 10:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Tom H. (Texoma Coalition) and John B. (jax760) - - - - See Message #6087 from "Texoma Coalition" (t4texas at cox.net) Re: The Broad Highway on page 55 of the Big Book Hi, What I understand this term to mean is that A.A. is an ll-encompassing fellowship where people of all different kinds of beliefs gather to deal with the problem of alcoholism. Bill is throwing out a term that appears, at least a first glance, to be a contradiction of what Christ is quoted as saying in the Bible regarding the gate and way to life being narrow while the gate and way to destruction is broad. But that's not what Bill is implying here. What he is saying is that the road to a life of recovery is indeed broad enough for us all to travel it regardless of what kind of title we might confer on God as we understand Him. >>> SERMON ON THE MOUNT (Matthew 7:13-14) >>> (King James Version) >>> "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is >>> the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth >>> to destruction, and many there be which go >>> in thereat: because strait is the gate, and >>> narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, >>> and few there be that find it." >>> >>> "strait" = (archaic) narrow, tight, >>> constricted, strict >>> BIG BOOK PAGE 55: >>> "... deep down in every man, woman, and child, >>> is the fundamental idea of God .... We found >>> the Great Reality deep down within us. .... >>> If our testimony ... encourages you to search >>> diligently within yourself, then, if you wish, >>> you can join us on the Broad Highway." In other words, we're all engulfed in the same problem, but how we work out a solution through working the steps is not so narrowed down that we can't travel the broad road to recovery together in spite of our differing understanding of a Higher Power. The 12 steps are configured in such a way that they lead us to different levels of spiritual progress as we work them to the best of our ability. A.A. doesn't claim to provide a path to perfection. We strive for spiritual progress rather than perfection. And when we reach Step 11, we will have advanced far enough down the broad highway to spiritual progress that we will make a practice of improving our conscious contact with God as we understand Him. In other words, there's plenty of room for everybody in A.A., provided of course that they have a desire to stay sober. So when you think about it, you can see that A.A.'s path to recovery as outlined in the Big Book is without a doubt a Broad Highway in every sense. No one is excluded; all are welcomed and afforded the opportunity to grow along spiritual lines regardless of what their personal concept of a Higher Power might happen to be. Hope that answers your question, and please note that I'm only voicing my personal understanding of the term you asked about. I'm not trying to preach. Sincerely, Tom H. Recovering Alcoholic DOS 12-31-1979 - - - - From John B. (jax760 at yahoo.com) The writer wrote: "In the Bible, the term "broad highway" is used in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount." The phrase as quoted does not appear in the Bible. You can see post 6088 for the text and useage from Farnol and decide for yourself if it fits. God Bless John B _________________________________________ Matthew 7:12-14 in the King James Version (Authorized Version): "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." _________________________________________ The Broad Highway by Jeffery Farnol (1878-1952) _________________________________________ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7165. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Broad Highway From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2011 7:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Much as we know that some references in our literature come, anecdotally, from the Bible, many phrases come from other sources, or are simply a manner of speech of the time period, to express an idea. I believe this is the case with the phrases used by the Big Book author here, "broad" & "Broad Highway". The term obviously taken in the context it is found, means that the program is big enough for everyone & anyone . . . ROOM enough to hold all who travel it. Unlimited in scope. The journey path that is prescribed is wide enough for ALL alcoholics, should they choose to travel it. There is no litmus test as one might find in most organized religions. Our society does not deny any traveler access. One difficulty we have when we approach our literature from the standpoint of a theologian, we begin to find that pieces do not fit, do not match up. Because, they are not meant to. Our Book is not an interpretation of scriptures, not a study in systematic theology, not a hermeneutical treatise. It would fail every test in those areas. Gratefully. Jon Markle/BA Sacred Studies/MA Agency Counseling Retired Therapist & SA Counseling Specialty: Dual Diagnosis/SPMI/COD & DBT-S HS Practitioner, Advisor & Case Consultation Raleigh, NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7166. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online From: A from near Maldon, England, . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/12/2011 5:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The message was just posted noting that Jim Myers has reported more problems keeping silkworth.net online. His server has raised his rates, because so many people are using his site. - - - - I am grateful this need has been drawn to my attention by a friend even before I read this posting. Once one has a PayPal account giving financial support from anywhere in the world only takes a few Mouse Clicks. It would be helpful to know how much is needed but if all reading this send $10 or $20 if they can afford it it must surely help in the short term. Then when we know how the fund stands and how much has been received we can work out how much more we each might send if we can afford it. I hope this is a link to the PayPal donation page for Silkworth.net https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_flow&SESSION=hcnstKzfOHRHmpKkr Qxns\ Vq8ejJniqfwTN11bno5WdfLUKFKzC3GZl2fMKu&dispatch=5885d80a13c0db1f8e263663d3fa ee8d\ f1d2b5c147af55b8d54f2944c97d2a2a I think it is possible to open account from that link, if one wants to investigate before here is a link to PayPal itself https://www.paypal.com/uk/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_account The money is needed to be paid to this email address. jim.myers56@yahoo.com (jim.myers56 at yahoo.com) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ You might like to consider this from:- http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/study_aahistory.html "Why Study A.A. History? ======================= This article is written by nationally recognized historian and oft-quoted Alcoholics Anonymous archivist Mitchell K. Why study, or for that matter, even discuss the history of Alcoholics Anonymous? What difference would it make? How could it affect how we live and work our own individual recovery? Who cares? In a quote attributed to Carl Sandburg, he summed it up when he wrote; "Whenever a civilization or society declines (or perishes) there is always one condition present - they forgot where they came from." This quote, often used by Frank M., Archivist for AA General Services gives a warning to present and future generations of AA members to "Keep It Green." The Washingtonians, The Oxford Group and others forgot where they came from. They watered-down and made changes to their respective movements which eventually led to their demise. AA members could take notice and begin to learn their roots. The history of AA can be both educational and fascinating and help in making the recovery process a fruitful one. Bill W. stated in 1940 that of those entering AA, 50 percent never drank again. 25 percent remained sober throughout their lives after experiencing some early difficulties and the remaining 25 percent could not be accounted for. Bill stated that 75 percent of AA members back then got well - they recovered. Group records indicate that in Cleveland, Ohio there was a 93 percent success rate for recovery in the early 1940's. Could these astounding figures be attributed to the fact that only low-bottom alcoholics came into AA? Could they be attributed to the lack of multiple addictions? We think not. Early records indicate that though a great number of early members were considered as low-bottom, there were many who entered AA before losing everything. Both Dr. Bob and Bill had difficulties with drugs other than alcohol. Bill struggled with these problems until his death in 1971." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7167. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online From: Jim Myers . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/12/2011 2:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you AAHistoryLovers for the post about the new problem facing silkworth.net! Just to keep you good folks up to date, I am working with doteasy.com to meet their demands to keep silkworth.net online. I have temporarily disabled all mp3 and avi files on silkworth.net until I can find an affordable solution, hoping that doteasy.com will allow me to stay online till I find a solution. I have sent them a message similar to this one in hopes that I get a positive response from them. I am researching online to see what may help in resolving the current hosting problem. The last message I received from them, they indicated silkworth.net needs its own dedicated server due to the tremendous amount of traffic. This research may take a little time but I am confident that a solution will be found. Monetarily, I am not in a good position to do what doteasy.com mentioned I should do, so I am searching the internet for alternatives. The ideal solution would be that I purchase my own server and host silkworth.net from that server here in my home. At the moment, I am not sure how that should be set up and I am not sure how that would effect my service with my Time Warner Road Runner high speed service. I thank all of you for your continued support! Yours in service, Jim M, http://www.silkworth.net/ _______________________________________ ORIGINAL MESSAGE FROM MY WEB SERVER: From: Doteasy To: jim.myers56@yahoo.com Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 3:00 PM Hello James, It has come to our attention that your account ( silkworth.net ) used a lot of traffic with your MP3 download. Your account has used up 24GB of traffic in just 2 days. Please note that you are responsible for ensuring that your use of the service does not consume excessive system or network resources that disrupts the normal use of the service through, but not limited to, spawning multiple processes, consuming excessive amounts of memory, CPU or bandwidth usage. - http://www.doteasy.com/Terms/index.cfm?T=TAC#14 Also, please note that our shared hosting server is not meant to act as a file sharing/media streaming server: http://www.doteasy.com/Terms/index.cfm?T=TAC#5 We advise you to consider VPS or dedicated server. With VPS (Virtual Private Server) or Dedicated hosting, your server is dedicated to your needs, which will allow you to have more control, such as using cron jobs, or installing custom server software such as streaming media, etc. You can learn more about them at the following links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_private_server http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedicated_server You can refer to the following links for more details and pricing: http://in2net.com/VPSHosting/#package http://www.in2net.com/DedicatedServers/ Please let us know if you would like to upgrade to VPS or dedicated server and which plan you are interested in. Thank you. Regards, Philip Doteasy Customer Service IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7168. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online From: Jim Myers . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2011 5:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It was requested that I post the operating cost on silkworth.net. I have done so. Currently to date, this is what you will find on the index page as of this email date which you can visit periodically to see all updates, changes and current status of silkworth.net. Current operating costs for silkworth.net are as follows: Domain name renewal once every five years. Cost: approximately $100.00. Next renewal date: December 14th, 2015. I am awaiting to hear from doteasy.com to find out the cost per year to host silkworth.net on its own dedicated server. Under my current unlimited hosting package with doteasy.com, it was costing $119.40 per year by the end of March. I expect that will at least double to meet the needs of silkworth.net. Current donations to date: $226.81 USD. I am very grateful to all of you for your support of silkworth.net. More will be revealed Jim M. (You can visit http://www.silkworth.net/ to view the updates and changes as they are revealed to me.) Yours in service, Jim M, http://www.silkworth.net/ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7169. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: More problems keeping silkworth.net online From: Al Welch . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2011 10:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Al Welch, mrpetesplace, Pete K. (greatcir), Clyde G., Charles Knapp, and Bent Christensen - - - - From: "Al Welch" (welch at a-1associates.com) Tell Jim there are MANY servers available at a modest price. For instance, I have used Blue Host for a number of years at $97.00 per year with unlimited use. It has all of the features including 24/7 help line. - - - - From: "mrpetesplace" (peter at aastuff.com) It seems that the issue is with the MP3. I know that Mike F. at recoveryspeakers.org was having to use a dedicated server, you may ask him about it too. If you have multiple domains. Ex. silkworth.net, silkworthfile.net, silkworthdata.com etc. I could host on my package to offset some of the traffic. You would be set up to take care of it. If you had others that would be willing to do it as well, it might help. As for the upgrade, I would look into other companies as well to see what they do. I use godaddy and about to move some sites to ipage. I would be using both hostings for different types of sites. I would be keeping AAStuff.com and WhenManListens.com at my Dovewind package. You may want to look into both of them as well. You might be surprised on some deals you might be able to find. In addition to godaddy and ipage, you may want to look into hostgater and fatcow. I looked into those ones as well but this was like 6 months ago and I wasn't looking into a dedicated server. Also, I don't know if streaming using more band width than a simple downloaded file, but if it does, maybe you can eliminate streaming and go with just downloads and they can play them after it is loaded. Anyway, If you don't have multiple domains, we still might be able to work something out. Peter - - - - From: pete kopcsak (greatcir at gmail.com) Can one charge for MP3 downloads and have some cash left over to pay the rest of the bill? - - - - From: "CloydG" (cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net) Why not pass the basket, 7th Tradition? Clyde G. - - - - From: Charles Knapp (cpknapp at yahoo.com) My only question is what is the cost to keep this site going? I have made donations over the last couple of years. Maybe what I thought was a good donation was not even a drop in the bucket. Has been my experience when AA members are given a need in dollar amounts the need is usually met. Thanks Charles from Wisconsin - - - - From: "bent_christensen5" (bent_christensen5 at yahoo.com) With that kind if trafic I think it is only fair that doteasy.com suggest that you get a better hosting solution. Besides the limit the site would benefit from an upgrade to because the downtime would be less and the vistors would get a faster reply and download. Since I am living in Denmark uptill now I haven't support silkworth.net but I would be happy to do. I do understand that $ 20 a month is a lot of money for you, but together we should easily be able to gather the money together. Normally I use paypal but as far as I understand you have some problems with that, Jim? Best regards Bent IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7170. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: keeping silkworth.net online -- use torrent files? From: Tim S . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2011 2:51:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Perhaps torrents would solve the problem. The you only need to host a very small torrent file and the community would then host the files and share the traffic among many. ____________________________________________ From Glenn C. the moderator: WHAT IS A TORRENT FILE? see http://ask-leo.com/whats_a_torrent.html What is a torrent file and can it be broken down to smaller files and recorded to CDs/DVDs? Torrents, typically ending in ".torrent", are control files for the peer-to-peer file sharing technology called BitTorrent. It's actually pretty cool technology that really just boils down to another way to download files. So really, you just use .torrent files to download other files. BitTorrent is a distributed file distribution technology. Yes, "distributed distribution". When you download a file using BitTorrent, the file is actually broken up into chunk that your BitTorrent client program then downloads and reassembles into the final file as the pieces arrive. To over-simplify, what makes it interesting are two things: The different chunks you download can all be coming from different machines. A BitTorrent client will connect to many other BitTorrent clients and download several chunks at once, in random order. In the long run this makes the protocol fairly efficient, and very nicely scalable - the more BitTorrent clients that are serving up a given file, the faster other clients can download it. As you start collecting chunks of the file, your BitTorrent client will start making those chunks available for downloading to other BitTorrent clients, and will become a part of the peer-to-peer file distribution network. The ".torrent" file is simply the bootstrap for this whole process. You download that normally, for example in your web browser, and then it is read by your BitTorrent client. It has the information that the BitTorrent client then uses to begin to locate other BitTorrent clients that are serving up the file you're interested in. "Torrent" is sometimes used to refer to the file being shared using BitTorrent, but a ".torrent" file is a specific file with specific information that is used to bootstrap the file download. Note I haven't talked at all about what kinds of files are actually being downloaded. That's because the answer is "any". Typically the types of files being shared using BitTorrent are large - audio files, video files and programs. But just saying "a torrent" doesn't tell you what it is or what you can do with it. Let's get concrete. Let's say you've discovered that some "Public Domain Movie" is available via a torrent. You download the ".torrent" file, and open it in your BitTorrent client. It then goes out to the internet, locates other BitTorrent clients that are serving up that file, and begins downloading all the various chunks until it has a complete copy of the file. When it's all done, you'll end up with something like a "PublicDomainMovie.avi" file. Or ".mpg", ".mov" or something else. What you then do with that file is up to you. Yep, you could burn that file to a CD or DVD, but that's all something you would do after it's downloaded, and has nothing to do with the fact that you got it via BitTorrent. I don't have a tremendous amount of experience with BitTorrent clients, so I can't really recommend one over the other, but I have used Azureus successfully, and it seems to be one of the more popular BitTorrent clients. I will warn you that all of the BitTorrent clients I've seen to date are still in the "geeky" stage, meaning that they sort of assume you know what you're doing to begin with. It's not a steep learning curve, but it will seem pretty obscure at first. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7171. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Are there any Wikipedia editors here who know about the Washingtonians? From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2011 6:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On the dangers of looking something up on wikipedia first, and stopping there and assuming that this information is accurate, and not reading anything else: Just because a "source" is commonly used "first" does not mean that it is accurate or best. Millions of people use Facebook too! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7172. . . . . . . . . . . . Early members from Southern California and meetings in jails/prisons From: ckbudnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2011 1:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings! I'm posting this with the hopes that some people may information or leads. Along with a couple of friends, we have been researching the transmission of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous during the late 40's and 50's to straight addicts and those who had "dual problems" (alcohol and other drugs). We have also been researching AA's response to the growing number of straight addicts and dual problem members who were joining Alcoholics Anonymous. We've discovered that the expansion of twelfth step work to jails and prisons by some early members played a major role in facilitating the increased interest in Alcoholics Anonymous by those who were not "simon-pure alcoholics" (to borrow and expression we've read). One early member of AA in Southern California who was a pioneer in this area was a man named Jack Prohs. I believe that he passed away in 2002 with over 50 years of sobriety. We are interested in finding out if anyone knew him or knew if he had children who we might be able to interview. There is an article in the LA Times (1985) where Jack Prohs talks about the passing of Beatrice Jorgensen. "Prohs said Mrs. Jorgensen worked at first as a counselor to women alcoholics in the County Jail, then, with the help of officials in the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, started Friendly House." Does anyone know if Beatrice Jorgensen was previously Beatrice Follett? Another person of great interest to us is a woman named Betty Thom, along with her husband Larry Thom. Betty was very involved in corresponding with prison based AA groups throughout the country as well as carrying the message into jails, prisons and institutions. She and her husband moved to Santa Monica and her husband Larry became very involved with the Bay Area AA Rehabilitation Center. Does anyone know anything about Betty and Larry? Thanks so much. Chris B. Raleigh, NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7173. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online From: Alex H . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2011 6:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On 2/12/2011 1:48 AM, Jim Myers wrote: > > > The ideal solution would be that I purchase my own server and host > silkworth.net from that server here in my home. At the moment, I am > not sure how that should be set up and I am not sure how that would > effect my service with my Time Warner Road Runner high speed service. > Without getting too technical... having a home server will not solve your bandwidth issue. It will only change the person who will be yelling at you for chewing up all the bandwidth. However, if you can offload the audio and video to some podcast audio place or YouTube, you can run your server at home using your domain name for the server and link to the audio/video at those other places. They will take the bandwidth hit. Not you. If you are not familiar with UNIX at the console level, forget about setting up your own server. The home server set up I am experimenting with is at... http://refounder1.gets-it.net/wordpress 1. Roadrunner ... full home package. Fastest they have. (Not the Signature package. I don't need my toes manicured too. :-)) 2. New router... Net Gear WNDR 3400, a mid-range, router with "Dynamic DNS" and port-forwarding. 4. I paid $15 for a simple yearly account with http://www.DynDNS.org to get a domain name to point to my home server. You pay more for additional services. There are free accounts available but they are a pain. Pay for the real services. 5. Dell Computer (5 years old and unused) with 160 Gig hard drive. 6. Debian or Ubuntu Linux. (I prefer Debian but Ubuntu is easier to set up and there is more help online.) Obviously there is more to setting this up than I am saying here but remember that the high-speed bandwidth they advertise on TV is the DOWNLOAD speed... NOT the UPLOAD speed that you will need. Your users will experience a slow server when getting audio/video files from your home server because your home upload bandwidth is limited (probably throttled to discourage customers from doing the very thing you are trying to do right now). If your goal is to disseminate audio/video for historical purposes to academia you might offer short audio samples and then sell a CD to them at cost or set up a store at PayPal and charge some minimum to cover the bandwidth costs. In the old days any research professor would limit the requests for data by requiring those requesting the data to pay for copying costs. If academia is who you are serving, then they ought to be familiar with this. Alex H. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7174. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early members from Southern California and meetings in jails/prisons From: John Moore . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2011 10:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII *"Prohs said Mrs. Jorgensen worked at first as a counselor to women alcoholics in the County Jail, then, with the help of officials in the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, started Friendly House." Here is a personal anecdote about Bea Jorgensen and the Friendly House if you all don't mind. I was a newcomer in 1972, living in Laguna Beach Cal. I was down on my luck and making $2 per hour as a house painter. I was the most inept painter on the crew but I was getting by somehow. What few possessions I still had when I got sober were gone. Apartment, furniture, nice job, car, money...I lost it all, mainly due to a big case of sober self will run riot. I got a new sponsor and started into the steps in earnest. I hoped to some day I might get another car, but calling for rides and hitching lifts after meetings was getting me where I needed to go. As I moved through the steps my life began to calm down. One day my sponsor told me that he heard the Friendly House in Los Angeles was getting a new car and that the old one, a Chevy Nova, was for sale. Price $200. I knew I could put the money together and I asked him if he would drive me up to L.A. The Friendly House was a big old house somewhere near downtown and was the first woman's halfway house in L.A. They told me Bea Jorgensen was the person I should see; she was the manager or something. I figured I would check out the car, kick the tires, look under the hood, find a few things that were wrong, and haggle a better price. I was wrong. Bea asked me into her office, sat me down, and started to ask me questions. She began grilling me in a nice way, as to what step was I working, who was my sponsor, what home group did I belong to, how many meetings was I going to, how long since my last drink... her questions went on and on. What the heck does all this have to do with buying a car, I wondered. Somewhere in the process, my plan of haggling price went out the window. I was the one being inspected, not the car. It began to dawn on me that she wanted to know if I good enough for their car, and not the other way around. At the end of the interview she leaned back in her chair and told me ok, I had passed muster, and I could buy the car, it would be $200. Did I want to see it? By that point I was thoroughly buffaloed. This had not gone the way I planned. I told Bea, no, not necessary, I will take it. I gave her the money and she handed me the keys and told me where it was parked. That was the last I saw of Bea and the first I saw of the car. She made a big impression on me and taught me something that day about trust. We AA's march to the tune of a different drummer. Her knowing whether I was walking the walk was more important than money, and strangely enough, it kinda made sense to me. That little Chevy Nova opened many doors for me. (Bald tires were a problem but at a meeting I ran into someone who had a gas station and he sold used tires. He gave me a set for only $15 each and got me fixed up) A good job came my way; a man who was sober for 15 years was going to train a salesman and looking for someone on the program. I went to see him and he hired me. He taught me a new trade and my little Chevy Nova took me around to my customers and I prospered. I went on to enjoy a business career spanning 30 years from that humble beginning. I heard afterward that that Bea's story was being made for TV and that she was becoming famous or something, but from my meeting with her, I knew she was not a "Hollywood" type. Bea was a woman of principle, a sober AA member doing service for her fellow woman as best she could. There is a lot to admire about Beatrice Jorgensen. Yours in AA, John M Early Risers Group Burlington Vermont US DOS Dec 7 1971 * *On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 1:47 PM, ckbudnick wrote: * > > * * > > *Greetings! > > I'm posting this with the hopes that some people may information or leads. > * * > > Along with a couple of friends, we have been researching the transmission > of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous during the late 40's and 50's to > straight addicts and those who had "dual problems" (alcohol and other > drugs). We have also been researching AA's response to the growing number of > straight addicts and dual problem members who were joining Alcoholics > Anonymous.* * > > We've discovered that the expansion of twelfth step work to jails and > prisons by some early members played a major role in facilitating the > increased interest in Alcoholics Anonymous by those who were not "simon-pure > alcoholics" (to borrow and expression we've read).* * > > One early member of AA in Southern California who was a pioneer in this > area was a man named Jack Prohs. I believe that he passed away in 2002 with > over 50 years of sobriety. We are interested in finding out if anyone knew > him or knew if he had children who we might be able to interview.* * > > There is an article in the LA Times (1985) where Jack Prohs talks about the > passing of Beatrice Jorgensen.* * > > "Prohs said Mrs. Jorgensen worked at first as a counselor to women > alcoholics in the County Jail, then, with the help of officials in the Los > Angeles County Sheriff's Department, started Friendly House."* * > > Does anyone know if Beatrice Jorgensen was previously Beatrice Follett?* * > > Another person of great interest to us is a woman named Betty Thom, along > with her husband Larry Thom. Betty was very involved in corresponding with > prison based AA groups throughout the country as well as carrying the > message into jails, prisons and institutions. She and her husband moved to > Santa Monica and her husband Larry became very involved with the Bay Area AA > Rehabilitation Center.* * > > Does anyone know anything about Betty and Larry? * * > > Thanks so much.* * > > Chris B.* * > Raleigh, NC > > * > * ** > * > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7175. . . . . . . . . . . . Book sale to keep silkworth.net online -- 2nd ed. Big Book From: bikergaryg@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2011 11:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I will place a 2nd edition big book with a new replacement dust-jacket on E-BAY and donate those funds to silkworth.net. E-bay does not charge me a fee if I am donating the funds. this is a great site and needs to stay open. You can also donate using pay-pal, I just did and it is very easy: go to http://silkworth.net/ and you will find the gold Pay Pal seal and Donate button at the bottom of the left hand column. Hope this will help some. bikergaryg New Jersey IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7176. . . . . . . . . . . . AA History Weekend Flyer From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2011 10:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS HISTORY WEEKEND IV “THE EARLY YEARS” (East Dorset, Vermont is also having its 250-year anniversary celebration & history tour this same weekend) with John B. from South Orange NJ & Barefoot Bill from West Milford NJ Both Past History & Archives Committee Chairpersons of Area 44 (North NJ) August 19 – 21, 2011 At The Wilson House (where Bill W. was born) 378 Village Street East Dorset, Vermont 05253 John B. has been overly passionate about AA history for a long time. He will be doing a presentation on “The First 40 Members of AA” and a picture presentation called “The Men Who Came to Believe” about William James, Carl Jung & Dr. Silkworth. Barefoot Bill has been studying and collecting AA history since 1994. He will be doing a presentation called “Bill W.’s Younger Years” and a picture presentation on the people, places & things associated with AA history mentioned in the Big Book. Saturday afternoon Bonnie L. & Barefoot Bill will also be doing a 2 & 1/2 hour sightseeing grand tour of all the AA history spots in & around East Dorset, Vermont Schedule: Friday night 8/20/10 9:00 to 10:00pm – AA history movie (popcorn provided) Saturday morning 8/21/10 9:00 to 10:20am – Bill W.’s Younger Years Saturday morning 8/21/10 10:40 to 11:55am – The Men Who Came to Believe Saturday afternoon 8/21/10 1:00 to 3:30pm – A sightseeing grand tour of all the AA history spots in & around East Dorset VT by Bonnie L. & Barefoot Bill Saturday night 8/21/10 9:00 to 10:00pm – AA history movie (popcorn provided) Sunday morning 8/22/10 9:00 to 10:20am – The First 40 Members of AA Sunday morning 8/22/10 10:40 to 11:55am – The AA History Mentioned in the Big Book For weekend and overnight reservations please call the Wilson House at 802-362-5524. For more information please call Barefoot Bill at 201-232-8749 (cell). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7177. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online From: Allan Gengler . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2011 4:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I host a few sites through Fatcow and they have a good deal right now. http://www.fatcow.com/ Allan J. Gengler ____________________________________________ http://www.allangengler.com http://www.flickr.com/photos/algengler/ agengler@wk.net agengler@allangengler.com agengler@gmail.com Mac OS X Leopard Rulez Be an organ donor, tell a friend. Yeshua is the man IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7178. . . . . . . . . . . . Updated current operating costs of silkworth.net From: Jim Myers . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2011 1:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The following is somewhat what you will find on the index page of silkworth.net about its current problem it is facing: ------------------------------------------- Current operating costs for silkworth.net are as follows: Domain name renewal once every five years. Cost: approximately $100.00. Next renewal date: December 14th, 2015. Response from doteasy.com 02/13/11 to find out the cost per year to host silkworth.net on a dedicated server or VPSHosting - keeping in mind, in January, 350.4 Gigabytes of traffic to this site. These are the only options doteasy.com are offering to fully restore silkworth.net: >>> http://in2net.com/VPSHosting/#package (Virtual Private Server) or >>> http://www.in2net.com/DedicatedServers/, silkworth.net having its own server (their partner company). I am also looking into a few other options. Current donations through Pay Pal to date: $456.89 USD. I also received a grant for $3,000 from the "Serving The Spirit Foundation". Even though silkworth.net is not a group, the grant meets the requirements of A.A.'s 7th Tradition. I am very grateful to all of you for your support of silkworth.net. More will be revealed....~Jim M. ------------------------------------------- I have until the end of March to resolve the current hosting problem. I am also very grateful for the feedback and great ideas I have received from some of you that has helped me in the decision process - which includes the elimination of a couple of ideas I was looking into. Yours in service, Jim M, silkworth.net ============================================= "Let us also remember to guard that erring member - the tongue, and if we must use it, let's use it with kindness and consideration and tolerance." -Dr. Bob, Sunday, July 30, 1950 http://silkworth.net/aahistory/drbob_farewell.html ============================================= IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7179. . . . . . . . . . . . Clarence S and Fort Knox From: joe . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2011 6:31:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am currently stationed at Fort Knox, and as an AA history lover, I am interested in Clarence's time here at Fort Knox for officer training recorded in "How It Worked" chapter 6. The letter from the Louisville AA office invited him to the meeting at 3rd and Kentucky St. The distance he would have had to travel to the meeting from Fort Knox was equivalent to going from Cleveland to Akron. I am curious to know, did Clarence ever write back, attend the group, or otherwise interact with AA in Kentucky during his training? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7180. . . . . . . . . . . . Who carried the message of AA into Italy? From: victor v . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2011 11:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Who carried the A.A. message into Italy? And when? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7181. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who carried the message of AA into Italy? From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2011 10:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Victor wrote: Who carried the A.A. message into Italy? And when? From unpublished AA World History Manuscript (1985) A.A. was also very slow to get started among the Italians. Like Paris, Rome had an English-speaking group in the early 1960's, which has continued until the present. But repeated attempts to reach the Italians met with failure except for a few bi-lingual individuals. Then, in the early '70's, a member of the Italian parliament now known as Carlo #1, a big, imposing man, was such a bad drunk that he was in danger of losing his post. He heard of the English-speaking A.A. group in Rome and began attending meetings-even though he did not understand English. The message was carried to him through an interpreter. Carlo absorbed enough of the program to get sober, stay sober, and carry the message to other Italian alcoholics. This had to be done verbally, since there was no literature in Italian. One day in March 1975, a doctor called on Carlo #1 to speak with a patient in the hospital who had alcoholic neuritis so severely he was confined to a wheelchair and was feared near the end. The patient was Roberto C., who was to become the father of Italian A.A. Roberto-the only son of the Helen Hayes of Italian theater, film and TV, and her producer-husband, who were constantly on the road-was reared by an uncle in a villa in Florence and educated in private schools. After serving in the war, he became a noted journalist, living for eight years as a correspondent in the U.S., where he became completely fluent in English. He also progressed into raging, desperate alcoholism, which got him deported back to Italy. There, despite periodic flashes of success on newspapers and national television, he continued to sink into sickness and eventual repeated hospitalization, which left him with a noticeable limp today. As soon as he was able after meeting Carlo, Roberto began attending the English-speaking A.A. group. With a consuming desire to stop drinking and as at home in English as in Italian, Roberto literally immersed himself in Alcoholics Anonymous. He read, re - read and absorbed every word of the Big Book and the other literature. With a deep spiritual base to his fractured life, he was awed by A.A.'s message of the need for spiritual change. And he began forthwith to carry the message to Italian alcoholics. When he had been sober less than two years, Roberto's renowned but aged mother became ill. Roberto, who had squandered a sizeable amount of his mother's money during his drinking, now felt he owed her great amends, so he went with her to a family villa in the country, where he remained at her side until she died. During these two years of isolation and devotion, Roberto says, "What did I have to do, but translate the Big Book into Italian?" With the help of other fledgling A.A.'s, Roberto then spearheaded an effort to publish the Italian Big Book (with financial assistance from A.A. World Services). He brought the first copy with him to the International Convention in New Orleans in 1980, where he presented it to Lois W. In his brief presentation talk, he announced proudly that Italy then had seven A.A. groups. Upon his return, he went through his native country like a Johnny Appleseed, sowing A.A. groups everywhere. In Rome, Carlo E., a wealthy businessman, joined up and used his own money to underwrite the translating and publishing of all the A.A. literature into Italian and the opening of a General Service Office to augment the intergroup which had already been established. A General Service Board was formed in October 1979, and after a great deal of controversy and several false starts, the first General Service Conference was held in 1984. By 1985, with appropriate gratitude for his part in getting Italian A.A. off to a flying start, Carlo E. was persuaded to halt his personal financial support and make the groups more reliant on their own contributions. In the autumn of 1985, Italian A.A. held its own convention to celebrate the 50th Anniversary of A.A.'s founding. About 700 spirited A.A.'s and their families turned up for the gathering, which was held in the Adriatic resort town of Rimini, where they heard Bob P., G.S.O. general manager, with Roberto C. translating the talk. At that time, there were over 100 A.A. groups in Italy, with new ones forming almost every day, and membership totaled over 4,000. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7182. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Clarence S and Fort Knox From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2011 10:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I took a quick look at the Cleveland Centeral Bulletins and in the December 1942 issue a letter from Clarence Snyder was published. He stated that he had very little personal time but that he had been asked to speak at a meeting in Louisville and had been granted special leave for the occasion. He also mentioned that the Louisville AA's had been bringing fellows to Ft. Knox to have him speak to them on a personal basis. Hope this helps. Jim B. - - - - Original message: >I am currently stationed at Fort Knox, and as an AA history lover, I am >interested in Clarence's time here at Fort Knox for officer training >recorded in "How It Worked" chapter 6. The letter from the Louisville AA >office invited him to the meeting at 3rd and Kentucky St. The distance he >would have had to travel to the meeting from Fort Knox was equivalent to >going from Cleveland to Akron. > I am curious to know, did Clarence ever write back, attend the group, or > otherwise interact with AA in Kentucky during his training? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7183. . . . . . . . . . . . Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 From: The Wilsons . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2011 4:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the book The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, Tradition 4 talks about the setup of an AA service complex: a treatment center that would provide financial aid, medical care, recovery help etc. It also talks about 61 rules that were drawn up. A fellow at a meeting the other night said that he recalled that at one time he thought he saw a list of 108 different rules that came from various groups. Was the AA treatment center really started somewhere? Where was it at? So we have the list of 61 rules? Bob Wilson Port Orchard, Washington IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7184. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2011 3:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Rule 62 and Wombley's Clapboard Factory Twelve Steps & Twelve Traditions pp. 147-149: Rule No. 62, "Don't take yourself too damn seriously." ______________________________ Message 2324 from "Mark Morse" (markm at eauclaire.lib.wi.us) Wombley's clapboard factory Regarding the "explosion in Wombley's Clapboard Factory," there was an Edgar Wombley, Chemist, in Chittenden County, Vermont, before the turn of the century. The Mad River Valley, which housed such early clapboard mills as that of the Ward family first in Duxbury, then in Moretwown, ran through Chittenden county. ______________________________ Message 1610 from Jim Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) I had a discussion with Ozzie Lepper who runs the Wison House in East Dorset and he claims that the foundations of the clapboard factory can still be seen. ______________________________ The full story, pp. 147-149 from the chapter in the Twelve Steps & Twelve Traditions on the Fourth Tradition ("Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole"): Every group had the right to be wrong. When A.A. was still young, lots of eager groups were forming. In a town we'll call Middleton, a real crackerjack had started up. The townspeople were as hot as firecrackers about it. Stargazing, the elders dreamed of innovations. They figured the town needed a great big alcoholic center, a kind of pilot plant A.A. groups could duplicate everywhere. Beginning on the ground floor there would be a club; in the second story they would sober up drunks and hand them currency for the back debts; the third deck would house and educational project - quite controversial, of course. In imagination the gleaming center was to go up several stories more, but three would do for a start. This would all take a lot of money - other people's money. Believe it or not, wealthy townsfolk bought the idea. There were, though, a few conservative dissenters among the alcoholics. they wrote the Foundation*, A.A.'s headquarters in New York, wanting to know about this sort of streamlining. They understood that the elders, just to nail things down good, were about to apply to the Foundation for a charter. These few were disturbed and skeptical. [*In 1954, the name of the Alcoholic Foundation, Inc., was changed to the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous, Inc., and the Foundation office is now the General Service Office.] Of course, there was a promoter in the deal - a super-promoter. By his eloquence he allayed all fears, despite advice from the Foundation that it could issue no charter, and that ventures which mixed an A.A. group with medication and education had come to sticky ends elsewhere. To make things safer, the promoter organized three corporations and became president of them all. Freshly painted, the new center shone. The warmth of it all spread through the town. Soon things began to hum. to insure foolproof, continuous operation, sixty-one rules and regulations were adopted. But alas, this bright scene was not long in darkening. Confusion replaced serenity. It was found that some drunks yearned for education, but doubted if they were alcoholics. The personality defects of others could be cured maybe with a loan. Some were club-minded, but it was just a question of taking care of the lonely heart. Sometimes the swarming applicants would go for all three floors. Some would start at the top and come through to the bottom, becoming club members; others started in the club, pitched a binge, were hospitalized, then graduated to education on the third floor. It was a beehive of activity, all right, but unlike a beehive, it was confusion compounded. An A.A. group, as such, simply couldn't handle this sort of project. All too late that was discovered. Then came the inevitable explosion - something like that day the boiler burst in Wombley's Clapboard Factory. A chill chokedamp of fear and frustration fell over the group. When that lifted, a wonderful thing had happened. The head promoter wrote the Foundation office. He said he wished he'd paid attention to A.A. experience. Then he did something else that was to become an A.A. classic. It all went on a little card about golf-score size. The cover read: "Middleton Group #1. Rule #62." Once the card was unfolded, a single pungent sentence leaped to the eye: "Don't take yourself too damn seriously." Thus it was that under Tradition Four an A.A. group had exercised its right to be wrong. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7185. . . . . . . . . . . . Parkhurst relatives From: Corey . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2011 6:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If you know of any of Hank Parkhurst's relatives or are one would you have them contact me asap? We need your help. THX! Corey F. (erb2b at yahoo.com) THX! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7186. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe Quinn From: WendiT . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2011 7:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello, I am doing an article on Joe Quinn for an alano club newsletter. Joe Quinn got sober in Los Angeles on December 21st, 1952, and passed away on July 25th 2000. Folks are telling me Joe spoke all over the country and was known all over. I have had a great opportunity to talk to many whose lives he touched. I thought I would ask if there are any oldtimers our there with additional stories. Thank you, Wendi (wenditurner at gmail.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7187. . . . . . . . . . . . Hiding a bad motive under a pretended good motive From: Aalogsdon . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2011 1:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Need help identifying source for the quotation which goes something like "hiding a bad motive under a good motive." Appreciate any help. (aalogsdon at aol.com) - - - - From Glenn C. the moderator (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) The first passage that springs to my mind is the one at the end of the chapter on Step 10 in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (page 94): "As we glance down the debit side of the day's ledger, we should carefully examine our motives in each thought or act that appears to be wrong. In most cases our motives won't be hard to see and understand. When prideful, angry, jealous, anxious, or fearful, we acted accordingly, and that was that. Here we need only recognize that we did act or think badly, try to visualize how we might have done better, and resolve with God's help to carry these lessons over into tomorrow, making, of course, any amends still neglected." "But in other instances only the closest scrutiny will reveal what our true motives were. There are cases where our ancient enemy, rationalization, has stepped in and has justified conduct which was really wrong. The temptation here is to imagine that we had good motives and reasons when we really didn't." "We 'constructively criticized' someone who needed it, when our real motive was to win a useless argument. Or, the person concerned not being present, we thought we were helping others to understand him, when in actuality our true motive was to feel superior by pulling him down. We sometimes hurt those we love because they need to be 'taught a lesson,' when we really want to punish. We were depressed and complained we felt bad, when in fact we were mainly asking for sympathy and attention. This odd trait of mind and emotion, this perverse wish to hide a bad motive underneath a good one, permeates human affairs from top to bottom." Can anyone in the AAHistoryLovers come up with another possible source for this quote? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7188. . . . . . . . . . . . Keeping everyone up to date: maintaining silkworth.net online From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2011 10:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There are many Hosting providers who offer packages similar to Fatcow, including my current provider, doteasy.com. Here's the problem. Their "unlimited" packages do offer the unlimited bandwidth, but you have to read the fine print. With Fatcow their "unlimited" means up to SMALL businesses. With my hosting provider their "unlimited" means SMALL to MEDIUM businesses. My provider doteasy.com says silkworth.net is considered, if you read between the lines as they have already reminded me twice, LARGER THAN A MEDIUM medium business. Don't get me wrong here, we all know silkworth.net is not a business. The site primarily archives much AA history material (along with other related information) made available to the general public free of charge, and is self-supporting. And it is my hopes that more folks will send in more AA history material making silkworth.net the largest data base of AA history material in the world made available publicly via the world wide web - which is a big plus for any AA member or for folks who are just interested, seeking, researching etc... etc... such information. Since I have gotten enough donations to do so, I am probably going to have silkworth.net moved to a Private Virtual Server at a cost of $468.00 per year, which allows up to 500 Gigabytes of traffic in any given month. Last month, silkworth.net got 350.4 Gigabytes of traffic. Of course, this threw up red flags with my hosting provider. I can live with this and you may see additional changes in the site in the future. Today, I opened a bank account in the name of "silkworth.net" so if anyone wishes to donate by check, they can make it out to silkworth.net - not to me or any other individual. At the moment this account only requires one signature. Other signatures can be added. So, for the moment, the account will only have the name "Silkworth.net." Once the LLC License has been purchased (pretty cheap), the changes will be made with the account to show the account as, for example: Silkworth.net LLC (I believe cheaper than going the route of Company or Incorporated). Doing this much is also possible due to a grant that silkworth.net received in the amount of $3,000.00, in which the bank account was created at Wachovia (all soon to be known as Wells Fargo - in almost all of these United States, with the exception of about seven States, I think). I also made sure the grant met all requirements of AA's Tradition 7. Just keeping you up to date..... Yours in service, Jim M. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7189. . . . . . . . . . . . Rule 62 and Wombley''s Clapboard Factory From: ron.fulkerson@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2011 4:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The old foundation to Wombley's Clapboard Factory still exists and can be seen behind the post office in East Dorset ... ronf IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7190. . . . . . . . . . . . Living amends From: Mike . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/21/2011 8:26:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've heard AA'ers talk about 'living amends', but I've never read about it in our literature. Does anyone know what it means or if it has any substantive roots in AA? Thanks, Mike IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7191. . . . . . . . . . . . changing the 12 steps From: amelialoomis . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2011 6:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know of the 12-steps being changed in our history? This could be individual meetings, regions, or meeting directory policies. After all this time there must be some documentation of the struggles on this. Thanks, Amelia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7192. . . . . . . . . . . . More on the doctoral thesis about Emmet Fox From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2011 7:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We already referred to the little biography of Emmet Fox in Chapter 2 of this doctoral thesis. The entire thesis can be read at: http://uir.unisa.ac.za/handle/10500/2026 "The Religious Thought of Emmet Fox in the Context of the New Thought Movement" by Maré Venter submitted for the degree of Doctor of Literature and Philosophy in the subject Religious Studies at the University of South Africa under the supervision of Prof. J. S. Krüger 30 November 2004 Abstract: The religious significance of Emmet Fox (1886-1951), a pioneer in the New Thought movement, is the focus of this study. The relevance of Fox's religious thought will be determined in reference to and in the context of contemporary theorist Ken Wilber's theoretical framework of integral hermeneutics. On the basis of Fox's primary writings, biographical information, the ideas and philosophy of modern New Thought scholars and Wilber's literature, Fox's religious thought was interpreted and evaluated. Aspects of Fox's belief, such as creative mind, scientific prayer, meditation and healing, concepts such as God, Jesus Christ, death, reincarnation, karma and end times, as well as his method of biblical exegesis are discussed. It becomes apparent that Emmet Fox, preacher and teacher, had never intended to provide a scientific or academic structural doctrine in which to deliver his teaching. His non-conformist, simple, yet well thought-through beliefs, which include esoteric, eastern and universal truths, focused on the fundamental truths that are necessary for humanity's evolutionary development. This approach made Fox's teaching valuable to his audience of the time, a changing American consciousness, as well as appropriate to a transformational South Africa, where it is relevant in bridging the various cultures, languages, and religious beliefs within a continuously changing spiritually minded population, and most of all, beneficial to every person's inner spiritual journey towards ultimate enlightenment. Fox's underlying religious belief is that `the thought is the thing' and this endorses the whole of the New Thought teaching, which states that `whatever the mind can conceive and believe, it can achieve' or `be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind'. Probably the most remarkable feature of his religious thinking is his popular allegorical interpretation of the Bible, which he interprets spiritually. It is apparent that there is an affinity between the religious thought of Emmet Fox and that of Wilber. Although the intent of this study is not to compare these scholars, it is interesting and valuable to Fox's interpretation that they advocate a similar underlying belief in the holistic Kosmos and the importance of having an integral vision. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7194. . . . . . . . . . . . How many copies of 12-and-12 published? From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2011 4:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From D. B. in England: How many copies of the 12-and-12 have been published? I know the Big Book is over 30 million world wide but I cannot find out about the 12-and-12. I did email GSO New York some weeks ago but they have not answered. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7195. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Living amends From: Phillip Baker . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2011 6:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Philip Baker, John Wikelius, Bob Gordon, Amelia, and Dov W. - - - - From: Phillip Baker (phillip at freewolf.net) Hey Mike, What Living Amends is about is changing behavior moving forward. The big book implies about living amends in numerous sentences in the section on amends: "There is a long period of reconstruction ahead" "The spiritual life is not a theory we have to live it" "There may be some wrongs we can never fully right" So I may have been unfaithful in a relationship. The other person does not want to talk with me, or I cannot find them, or they have died. A living amends in that case would be making sure I am never unfaithful in another relationship again. I.e. changing the behavior. There is a risk in this however: there is an easy road that is not really an amends. And a great many people in program try to use that "out." In the above case maybe I never really actually do the work to locate the person, and just say "ah, I will do a living amends." It is my character defects just popping up trying to help me avoid a painful experience of confronting my demons. I strongly recommend and believe that I am not in a place to determine if I should be making a living amends. That is for a determination to be made with my spiritual guide after talking with them about it and exhausting other possibilities. But by and large I always believe something more direct can be done, either through a dead letter, surrogate amends, or something else. A living amends is almost always a last resort, unless in making amends to someone that is what they ask of me. I remember hearing one speaker talk about stealing a bible from a priest. When he went back to make amends to him, the priest told him that to make amends he should read it every day. So he agreed, his living amends then was to read the bible every day. Blessed Be Phillip - - - - From: john wikelius (justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com) I have equated it to paying forward. There are those who I cannot make a direct amend to because of time, death etc. By showing kindness and compassion to those I encounter today I feel that is making a living amends. Also I feel that "Actions speak louder than words" thus showing folks of my sincerety is much more profitable that trying to convince them verbally. - - - - From: bob gordon (bob34g at gmail.com) Even though I live in Canada an old timer explained it once to me this way. The US Constitution has amendments, but when they changed the practice of politics they did not say sorry. The 19th Amendment grants women the vote it doesn't say sorry we didn't allow you to vote back in the old days. In the same way he told me amends were living changed behaviour not simply apologizing for past misdeeds _______________________ Bob Gordon 34 North Street, Guelph, ON CANADA N1H 8N5 SMS 5193626709 - - - - From: intuited (intuited at earthlink.net) When I do a living amends I am functioning in guidance to make like the very best for the other person(s) that I have harmed. Apologizing or showing that I was aware and sorry isn't enough. I need to be impeccable in my present and future behavior. Amelia - - - - From: Dov W (dovwcom at gmail.com) Searching through Grapevine archives "living amends" is referred to not so much as an additional requirement but as a potential alternative for direct amends in articles since 1978. Overeater's Anonymous mentions the idea in a recent piece of literature on sponsorship: page 11, lines 404-405 <> page 12, lines 461-465 <> page 12, lines 466-467 <> http://www.oa.org/pdfs/sponsoring_12_steps_2010.pdf My sponsor told me about living amends he made to his 1 year old son. The Big Book on page 83 says "We ought to sit down with the family and frankly analyze the past as we now see it, being very careful not to criticize them." But my sponsor's one year old son would not have understood any analysis of the past, frank or otherwise. So my sponsor would use whatever spare time he could find to share with his son and be the best Dad he could be. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7196. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2011 7:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Windows servers could handle this as well. The only benefit of the Linux operating systems is that they are free. A Windows 7 professional provides the IIS server, FTP and email capabilities. The problem is bandwidth as you mentioned. For audio and video files they will eat up bandwidth quickly and virtually all home connections available will not be able to handle them reasonably. That is the reason hosting services are best because they provide a much higher level of bandwidth than home connections do. Hopefully there are several members on this group who are helping with small contributions to PayPal. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7197. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2011 2:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Update: Silkworth.net is being moved, at the request of my previous hosting provider (doteasy.com), to its partner company In2net.com, to handle the traffic, including Audio and Video files. The site will be fully restored within the next few days - give or take. I am in agreement with Jim -- Silkworth.net is in the process of being moved to a Virtual Private Server to handle the traffic to silkworth.net. After much research and my own lack of experience, Shakey Mike, Mitchell K, and I felt this was the best course of action. Within the next few days, on the index page of silkworth.net, operational costs for silkworth.net, as well as Pay Pal donations to date, how the funds were used, as well as the renewal dates for the domain name and hosting services, will be posted at all times. For all of you who have supported silkworth.net with your generous Pay Pal donations and other means, we -- Mike, Mitch and myself -- express much gratitude to you for your continued support of silkworth.net. Make no mistake about it, it could not have been done without you. Yours in service, Jim M - - - - From: James Bliss Subject: Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 17, 2011, 7:16 AM Windows servers could handle this as well. The only benefit of the Linux operating systems is that they are free. A Windows 7 professional provides the IIS server, FTP and email capabilities. The problem is bandwidth as you mentioned. For audio and video files they will eat up bandwidth quickly and virtually all home connections available will not be able to handle them reasonably. That is the reason hosting services are best because they provide a much higher level of bandwidth than home connections do. Hopefully there are several members on this group who are helping with small contributions to PayPal. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7198. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Joe Quinn From: Dougbert . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2011 7:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Dougbert, Shakey Mike, and John Moore - - - - From: Dougbert (dougbert8 at yahoo.com) Hi Wendy, For five years, I was a regular at Joe Quinn's Thurday night book study in Laguna Beach. Joe was a crusader for the Paradoxes. You will need a second edition to understand his passion about the Paradoxes. You cannot write about Joe Quinn without understanding why he was so passionate about the Paradoxes. The Professor and the Paradox starts on page 341 (second edition): 1. We surrender to Win 2. We give it away to keep it 3. We suffer to get well 4. We die to live Although Dr Paul, addict/alcoholic started the acceptance craze from page 417, I think A.A. did a great disservice to the Fellowship for replacing The Professor and the Paradox with Dr. Paul's story. But I understand that A.A. was attempting to be all things to all people to increase membership, but Joe Quinn would tell you, A.A. is for alcoholics! I will not buy a new edition until we get back to our roots of pure alcoholism. In Fellowship, Doug - - - - From: Shakey Mike (shakey1aa at yahoo.com) There are hundreds of thousands. That is why local archives are so important to preserving our fellowship. We need to document their individual AA story and their AA service involvement. Yours in Service Shakey Mike Gwirtz Hardcore Group See you in Montana in September (15th National Archives Workshop) - - - - From: John Moore (contact.johnmoore at gmail.com) Hi Wendi I am sending to your email address a brief memoir written by my good buddy Vaun I. in California. Vaun talks about Joe Q who 12 stepped him, in a story he wrote for the Orange County AA publication The Lifeline. I am also sending to you via email a copy of the poem "Touch of the Master's Hand". Joe recited it by heart at the end of every talk he gave. I always found it stirring. I will write up my own recollections for you, Wendi, and get to you this week. All the best, John Moore South Burlington, Vermont - - - - The Touch of the Master's Hand It was battered and scarred, And the auctioneer thought it hardly worth his while To waste his time on the old violin, but he held it up with a smile. "What am I bid, good people", he cried, "Who starts the bidding for me?" "One dollar, one dollar, Do I hear two?" "Two dollars, who makes it three?" "Three dollars once, three dollars twice, going for three," But, No, From the room far back a gray bearded man Came forward and picked up the bow, Then wiping the dust from the old violin And tightening up the strings, He played a melody, pure and sweet As sweet as the angel sings. The music ceased and the auctioneer With a voice that was quiet and low, Said "What now am I bid for this old violin?" As he held it aloft with its' bow. "One thousand, one thousand, Do I hear two?" "Two thousand, Who makes it three?" "Three thousand once, three thousand twice, Going and gone", said he. The audience cheered, But some of them cried, "We just don't understand." "What changed its' worth?" Swift came the reply. "The Touch of the Masters Hand." And many a man with life out of tune All battered with bourbon and gin Is auctioned cheap to a thoughtless crowd Much like that old violin A mess of pottage, a glass of wine, A game and he travels on. He is going once, he is going twice, He is going and almost gone. But the Master comes, And the foolish crowd never can quite understand, The worth of a soul and the change that is wrought By the Touch of the Masters' Hand. -- Myra Brooks Welch _____________________________ Message #7186 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7186 Fri Feb 18, 2011 From (wenditurner at gmail.com) Hello, I am doing an article on Joe Quinn for an alano club newsletter. Joe Quinn got sober in Los Angeles on December 21st, 1952, and passed away on July 25th 2000. Folks are telling me Joe spoke all over the country and was known all over. I have had a great opportunity to talk to many whose lives he touched. I thought I would ask if there are any oldtimers our there with additional stories. Thank you, Wendi IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7199. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: changing the 12 steps -- Big Book vs. 12-and-12 From: mg2131 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2011 12:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The description of HOW WE WORK the 12 steps was changed when the 12 & 12 was written. I work the steps from the Big Book, I haven't worked them from the 12 & 12. However, I have read the 12 & 12 and to me, the differences that immediately pop to mind (without having it in front of me to check) are that step 1 is different in the 12 & 12, and step 4 is pretty radically different as well. So the change in how they are done, what actions are taken, would date to the 12&12, at least, as it can be tracked with written documentation. I feel like this was a pretty garbled response, but maybe it can give you a starting point. Jen IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7200. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: changing the 12 steps From: intuited . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2011 12:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Amelia (intuited), Allan Gengler, paddymur, Rob M. (hjfree), and Bill Lash (barefootbill) - - - - From: intuited (intuited at earthlink.net) I apologize. I could have been clearer about my question on changing the steps. After the Big Book was published were there ongoing disagreements about the wording in the steps? Did some meetings change them, and if so, how was this handled by local intergroups or GSO? Did the General Service Conference develop any policy to deal with local groups who might change them? I am aware of two groups who have significantly revised steps and I am curious about the history of the phenomenon. Hope this is clearer. Thanks, Amelia - - - - From: "Allan Gengler" (agengler at wk.net) Steps 3, 7, 8 and 12 were changed from the original manuscript. Is that what you mean? - - - - From: "paddymur" (paddymur at yahoo.com) Amelia-- They changed the 12th Step from "having had a Spiritual experience ..." to read "having had a Spiritual awakening..." The feeling was that not everyone would have and 'experience' like Bill W. did. Most of us get it gradually. --Pat - - - - From: "hjfree2001" (hjfree at fuse.net) I was at a meeting in a suburb north of Baltimore, when they read the 12 steps they substituted substances for alcohol in step 1, I was so disheartened I almost left. I have been to meetings in 45 of the 50 states and it is a comfort to walk in, be able reminisce with a group of strangers and have the same readings, everywhere but that one. Blessed2BSober rob m - - - - From: Bill Lash (barefootbill at optonline.net) Here is a current scary example of changing the Steps: http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Warning_Non_AA_Groups_Infilt rati\ ng_AA.pdf [7] Just Love, Barefoot Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7201. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: changing the 12 steps From: Norman Gin . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2011 11:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Norman Gin and Dougbert - - - - From: Norman Gin (ncgin at swbell.net) I'm not sure if this addresses your question, but I recently met a man who is active in Native American Indian GSO http://www.naigso-aa.org/index.htm The history of NAIGSO, meeting formats, as well as " The Indian Twelve Steps - Walking the Red Road" and other information can be found under "Site Map" Norm - - - - From: Dougbert (dougbert8 at yahoo.com) Amelia, Try http://www.aa-freethinkers.org -- they have rewriten the Steps at http://www.aa-freethinkers.org/steps2.shtml In Fellowship, Doug AGNOSTIC 12 STEPS 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable. 2. Came to believe and to accept that we needed strengths beyond our awareness and resources to restore us to sanity. 3. Made a decision to entrust our will and our lives to the care of the collective wisdom and resources of those who have searched before us. 4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. 5. Admitted to ourselves without reservation, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. 6. Were ready to accept help in letting go of all our defects of character. 7. With humility and openness sought to eliminate our shortcomings. 8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. 10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it. 11. Sought through meditation to improve our spiritual awareness and our understanding of the AA way of life and to discover the power to carry out that way of life. 12. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. ______________________________ Message #7191 Wed Feb 23, 2011 from "amelialoomis" (intuited at earthlink.net) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7191 Does anyone know of the 12-steps being changed in our history? This could be individual meetings, regions, or meeting directory policies. After all this time there must be some documentation of the struggles on this. Thanks, Amelia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7202. . . . . . . . . . . . Changes in steps or traditions effectively forbidden since 1976 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2011 4:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Since 1976, the wording of the twelve steps cannot be changed without consulting all the registered AA groups worldwide, asking them to respond in writing. At least three quarters of those responding must approve the change before it can be made. See "ArtSheehan" Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005 As Arthur puts it: "The Conference Advisory Action makes any change whatsoever to the Steps, Traditions, Concepts and Warranties a virtual impossibility (even so much as adding or removing a comma)." See also Message #5700 from "Arthur S" "3/4 of the registered groups permission" applies to the Steps, Traditions and Article 12 of the Permanent Conference Charter (i.e. the 6 "Warranties" which are also Concept 12) per advisory action of the 1976 Conference (which also approved the 3rd edition Big Book). - - - - A further comment from Glenn C: I would like to add that the interpretation of what the twelve steps and twelve traditions mean cannot be done by narrow word chopping and pseudo-logical arguments. They have to be interpreted in terms of the historical precedents which were set back in the early AA period. So for example, it is illegitimate to try to argue that, since the steps referred to "God as we understood Him," everyone in AA had to use the word "God" at all times, and that no one in AA was allowed even to use a term like "Higher Power," let alone be an atheist or agnostic. The reason why this was not valid was because the historical tradition records that the words "as we understood Him" were inserted to allow the early AA member who was an atheist to remain a member of the group. And similar ground rules apply to the wording of the Twelve Traditions. What specific kinds of things were actually regarded as anonymity breaks in earliest AA history? We must look at the actual examples of things that were forbidden, BUT ALSO things that nobody worried about. What was meant by a "promoter" back during that period (remembering the Rule 62 story)? Or in other words, in the historical context of that period, "attraction rather than promotion" was not a rule forbidding AA members from getting articles about AA put in their local newspapers and that sort of thing (as long as pictures of their faces and their last names were kept out of it, of course!) What specific things happened which Tradition Six was directed against? (In this case, it was things like Bill W. and Dr. Bob's names being put on the letterhead of Marty Mann's National Council on Alcoholism as official supporters of her group.) Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) P.S. But to answer another part of Amelia's question, what can actually be done to an individual AA group which tries to re-word one of the twelve steps? The worst sanction that could be applied would be to remove the list of that group's meetings from the local intergroup published meeting schedule. And personally, I've never known that to be done to an AA group. In AA, we DO NOT burn people at the stake, or chop off their heads in the town square, or hold Salem-type witch trials! Nor -- my own personal opinion here -- do sensible AA people stand around conducting nit-picking arguments over things like how many angels can stand on the head of a pin, or trying to invent dozens of new rules about exactly how you are allowed to introduce yourself at a meeting, or whether an AA conference can accept a dollar (to help pay for their coffee) from Al-Anons who are also attending, and that sort of thing. This last paragraph is just me though! - - - - CHANGES TO STEP TWELVE: See also Message 2258 from Jim Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) Changes to the Big Book 1st Edition - 2nd Printing: >> P72-L03, Spiritual Experience to Awakening. >> Added footnote "see Appendix II", p35, 38, 72. >> Added Appendix II - Spiritual Experience, p399. - - - - CHANGES TO STEP TWELVE: The series of changes in the wording of Step 12: From: "ArtSheehan" Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005 Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Changing "those" to "these" in 12th step wording In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing of the 1st edition Big Book. The term "spiritual experience" was changed to "spiritual awakening" and the term "as the result of these steps" was changed to "as the result of those steps." An appendix titled "Spiritual Experience" was also added to the Big Book in the 2nd printing of the 1st edition. This was done because many members thought they had to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most spiritual experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James called the "educational variety." There is a very brief mention of the Step 12 wording change from "experience" to "awakening" in "AA Comes of Age" in the chapter "Religion Looks at Alcoholics Anonymous" by Father Ed Dowling (pg 256). Outside of it, I have been unable to find any further references to the changes in AA literature. In 1956, the wording of Step 12 changed again in the 2nd printing of the 2nd edition Big Book. The term "as the result of those steps" was restored to its original form of "as the result of these steps." The 1976 General Service Conference approved publication of the 3rd edition Big Book. The 1976 Conference also expanded a 1955 provision of the Conference Charter to specify that any change to the Steps, Traditions or Concepts and 6 Warranties of Article 12 of the General Service Conference Charter, would require written approval of 75% of the AA Groups worldwide. The Conference Advisory Action makes any change whatsoever to the Steps, Traditions, Concepts and Warranties a virtual impossibility (even so much as adding or removing a comma). Cheers Arthur - - - - Message 3677 from "ArtSheehan" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) Sept. 4, 2006 There were a number of significant changes made to the 2nd printing of the 1st edition Big Book: In March 1941, in the 2nd printing, the wording of Step Twelve changed. The term "spiritual experience" was changed to "spiritual awakening" and "as the result of these steps" was changed to "as the result of those steps." The story "Lone Endeavor" (of Pat C from CA, ghost written by Ruth Hock) was removed. Appendix II "Spiritual Experience" was added. Many members thought they had to have a sudden, spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most spiritual experiences developed slowly over time and were of the "educational variety." William James, by the way did not explicitly use the term "educational variety" in his 1902 book titled "The Varieties of Religious Experience - A Study In Human Nature." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7203. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2011 11:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII How much of the story of the AA treatment center and Wombley's Clapboard Factory is factual? Who was the super promoter, what town did this happen in and what happened to the building? It seems likely that Bill was talking about a clapboard factory in the generic sense, but what about the three story building and rule 62? I apologize if I sound daft, but Bill seems to occasionally take liberties. Is this an example? I did find this: http://chipsontheweb.net/memchips/wombleys_clapboard.pdf Chuck IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7204. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2011 9:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the late 90's I attended an Archives Workshop held at the "Alanon Association" club in Newark, NJ. (This name is a contraction of alcoholics Anonymous. The Al-anon Fellowship had not been founded yet.) This building had been purchased and opened as a Clubhouse in the early 40's. (One of the first--it was a big deal.) As I recall, it had 3 floors -- one with restaurant/catering facilities, one with a bowling alley -- and of course, meeting rooms. It was said that this was the model AA complex talked about in Tradition 4. Could some North Jersey member corroborate/correct this info? North Jersey has GREAT Archives. Saw the actual "Rule 62" card displayed there, as well as many fliers for events with Bill W. in attendance. In service, Cindy Miller IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7205. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Changes in steps or traditions effectively forbidden since 1976 From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2011 5:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn, Since Conference Actions aren't binding on future Conferences, I assume the Conference could always revoke the 75% group approval rule for changing the Steps and Traditions. It's not like the U.S. Constitution, where an Amendment is forever, unless it's repealed by another Amendment or by a Constitutional Convention. John Lee Pittsburgh IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7206. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alanon, Al-Anon, and Alano From: Art Boudreault . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/3/2011 1:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Cindy said: "Workshop held at the 'Alanon Association' club in Newark, NJ. (This name is a contraction of alcoholics Anonymous. The Al-anon Fellowship had not been founded yet.)" As a matter of history, when Lois W. proposed using the word Alanon, Bill suggested the dash (-) to differentiate these from the A.A. "Alanon" associations. He then wrote to the A.A. Alanon associations and asked them to drop the last "n," creating the A.A. "Alano clubs" which we know today. Art Boudreault IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7207. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alanon, Al-Anon, and Alano From: Ken Ring . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/4/2011 12:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What is the source of this information about where the term "Alano" club came from? - - - - Message #7204 from Cindy Miller (cm53 at earthlink.net) In the late 90's I attended an Archives Workshop held at the "Alanon Association" club in Newark, NJ. (This name is a contraction of alcoholics Anonymous. The Al-anon Fellowship had not been founded yet.) Message #7206 from "Art Boudreault" (artb at netwiz.net) Cindy said: "Workshop held at the 'Alanon Association' club in Newark, NJ. (This name is a contraction of alcoholics Anonymous. The Al-anon Fellowship had not been founded yet.)" As a matter of history, when Lois W. proposed using the word Alanon, Bill suggested the dash (-) to differentiate these from the A.A. "Alanon" associations. He then wrote to the A.A. Alanon associations and asked them to drop the last "n," creating the A.A. "Alano clubs" which we know today. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7208. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 From: MattD . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/5/2011 4:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In an interview with Tom P. — who had worked as an editor on the manuscript for the 12 & 12 — he said Rule 62 was referring to Hazelden. Matt D. - - - - A question from GC the moderator: was Hazelden big enough at that time (1952 to 1953) to be a match for the story in the 12-and-12? See http://hindsfoot.org/kbs5.html for a photo of Hazelden taken in 1955. It was just a big farmhouse. There was no third floor. And a bowling alley? Maybe, but .... does anyone have any information about whether they could have had all of this in that old farmhouse in 1952 and 1953? - - - - See Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions pp. 147-148: "Beginning on the ground floor there would be a club; in the second story they would sober up drunks and hand them currency for the back debts; the third deck would house and educational project - quite controversial, of course. In imagination the gleaming center was to go up several stories more, but three would do for a start. This would all take a lot of money - other people's money. Believe it or not, wealthy townsfolk bought the idea." "Of course, there was a promoter in the deal - a super-promoter. By his eloquence he allayed all fears, despite advice from the Foundation that it could issue no charter, and that ventures which mixed an A.A. group with medication and education had come to sticky ends elsewhere. To make things safer, the promoter organized three corporations and became president of them all. Freshly painted, the new center shone. The warmth of it all spread through the town. Soon things began to hum. to insure foolproof, continuous operation, sixty-one rules and regulations were adopted." "But alas, this bright scene was not long in darkening. confusion replaced serenity. It was found that some drunks yearned for education, but doubted if they were alcoholics. The personality defects of others could be cured maybe with a loan. Some were club-minded, but it was just a question of taking care of the lonely heart. Sometimes the swarming applicants would go for all three floors. Some would start at the top and come through to the bottom, becoming club members; others started in the club, pitched a binge, were hospitalized, then graduated to education on the third floor." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7209. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Changes in steps or traditions effectively forbidden si... From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2011 5:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn C. wrote: "In AA, we DO NOT burn people at the stake, or chop off their heads in the town square, or hold Salem-type witch trials! Baileygc23@aol.com responds: "Please do not give the faithful hints." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7210. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Changes in steps or traditions effectively forbidden since 1976 From: Jim F. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/3/2011 11:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Jim F. and Jon Markle - - - - From: "Jim F." (f.jim53 at rocketmail.com) The 4th Tradition provides a huge loophole for any group not wanting to observe or abide by the other tradtions. The 4th tradition effectively grants each group autonomy and the "right to be wrong." The steps are also only suggested "guides to progress." In AA it's important to note that all suggestions are given for free, the only ones you may have to pay for are the ones you don't take. Jim F. - - - - From: Jon Markle (jon.markle at mac.com) Some meetings in the Cleveland/Akron area do have some different words in some of the Steps and Traditions. When I first attended them years ago, as a visitor when I went to visit my parents who live in Cleveland, I was very surprised and caught completely off guard by surprise. Imagine this relative newbee's shock! LOL However it forced me to do some homework. I am glad I did not insert my foot in my mouth. It forced me to study our AA history. I have not been offended by those minor changes for years now. In fact, I have become accustomed to the meetings there, their different format, and the distinctive "flavor" of somewhat (to me) rigidity they have toward working the steps, studying the traditions, and working the program as it is written (even though a couple of words are different). I really appreciate the attitude of gratitude instilled in me for our very colorful AA history, with all it's chinks. Jon Markle Raleigh, North Carolina IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7211. . . . . . . . . . . . Can any of Bill W''s writings be changed? From: larry . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2011 5:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I hate to ask what may be an ignorant question, but it is my understanding that there was a conference action that there could be no changes to any of Bill's writings. Is this correct? Larry - - - - From G.C. the moderator: Well, actually, no. In theory, the wording could be changed on Bill W's writings. According to Arthur S's research, a conference action stating that no changes could be made was proposed in 1996, but no advisory action resulted. The next year, the Trustees Committee on Literature also declined to take action on that proposal. See Message #5700 from "Arthur S" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5700?threaded=1 &l=1 ARTHUR SAID: <> <> IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7212. . . . . . . . . . . . Changes in the first 164 pp. of the Big Book From: CloydG . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/3/2011 7:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Clyde G., Glenn C., and gadgetsdad - - - - From: Clyde G. (cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net) In a follow up on John Lee's question, I had been told that the original text -- the first 164 pages of the AA Big Book -- was in the hands of the Trustees. Is this so? I was told that this was done so that the foundation of AA was preserved for generations to follow, so that others whom came into AA could follow in the footsteps of the founders for ever and ever. The job of Conferences was to clarify or correct errors in individual printings from year to year. I was also told that this was Bill and Bob's wishes prior to turning AA over to World Services. Is this so? In love and Service, Clyde G. California - - - - From: Glenn Chesnut (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) Clyde, Well, Arthur S. is the top AA expert on this all-important area of AA history, so I'm just going by what he turned up in his research. It seems to be the case that it is still possible for the Conference to make changes in the first 164 pages of the Big Book. See Arthur's message no. 7211 for more about this: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7211 And if you go back through the messages that have been posted in the AAHistoryLovers, you will in fact find that small changes have been made even in the first 164 pages. They are usually extremely minor changes. The message from gadgetsdad below is one typical example. Glenn C. - - - - From: gadgetsdad (gadgetsdad at yahoo.com) All 16 printings of the first edition and the first six printings of the second edition had the phrase "program of recovery" capitalized [page 59 in the present fourth edition]. After exhaustive research the answer I have to this change was that it was and I quote "an editorial change." There was not a conference or Trustee action that made this change. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7213. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book vs. 12-and-12 on the twelve steps From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/3/2011 9:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Original message #7199 from "mg2131" (jamirabella at yahoo.com) The description of HOW WE WORK the 12 steps was changed when the 12 & 12 was written. I work the steps from the Big Book, I haven't worked them from the 12 & 12. However, I have read the 12 & 12 and to me, the differences that immediately pop to mind (without having it in front of me to check) are that step 1 is different in the 12 & 12, and step 4 is pretty radically different as well. So the change in how they are done, what actions are taken, would date to the 12&12, at least, as it can be tracked with written documentation. Jen - - - - From Jon Markle (jon.markle at mac.com) The steps are *PRECISELY* the same, word for word in both books. The *ESSAYS* following each of the Steps are different. Which was INTENTIONAL. Bill W. had a little more time under his belt when he penned the 12x12, thus he had a vastly additional ESH [Experience, Strength, Hope] on what to say in regard to how they might be approached. The 12x12 was never meant to replace the Big Book. The 12x12 was, however, meant to augment the Big Book, and give a more broad perspective and instruction about the process of working the Steps, because the author had a better understanding of How it Works by then. In the Foreword, pg 17, of the 12x12: "The book 'Alcoholics Anonymous' became the basic text of the Fellowship, and it still is. This present volume [the 12x12] proposes to broaden and deepen the understanding of the Twelve Steps as first written in the earlier work." So, we can look at the 12x12 as adjunct to our study of the steps, not a replacement for the Big Book (by any stretch of the imagination). Jon Markle Raleigh, North Carolina P.S. It was here on AAHistoryLovers, years ago, I believe, that I learned it was NOT A REQUIREMENT for any AA group to adhere or subscribe to the 12 Traditions. It's one of those autonomous things that makes AA so uniquely different from any other system of people. No one can force us to sign on to those Traditions if we do not want to. At first I was in total denial, disbelief; appalled at this suggestion. Now, I'm not so sure about this "loophole". Seeing how the Traditions are somehow used, in some areas, by some groups, to abuse and beat up on other groups. We alcoholics, even though sober, can be SOB's. - - - - From: Robt Woodson (wdywdsn at sbcglobal.net) A quick reading of the Forward to the Twelve and Twelve (p.15) can clear up a lot of problems here...those are not the steps; they are essays on the steps. The essays there were directed at our membership, primarily at questions asked by sponsors about the Twelve Steps;, and also, at others outside of our fellowship (who were asking a lot of questions too). It was perceived that they too might benefit from a knowledge of our Twelve Steps. The Steps themselves remain in the Big Book. A simple case in point or "test" if you will ...you can't work the Fourth Step from the Twelve and Twelve because it doesn't tell you how to do it. I'll hazard a personal opinion...If you want to confuse a newcomer...send them to the Twelve and Twelve. As a way of presenting and elucidating our Twelve Traditions on the other hand, the information there is invaluable. Felices 24 Horas, Woody in Akron - - - - From: Tim DeRan (timderan at msn.com) Keep something in mind, it is known fact that there a lot of people in Cleveland, Ohio who think that Clarence S founded Alcoholics Anonymous in Cleveland, that he wrote the Big Book and that the first meetings of AA took place in Cleveland, Ohio. So that loose play with wording just might have something to do with their thinking they are the source. Sometimes changing words and ideas have confused more than a few members whether new or old. Might be best to stick to that which works. Just for a few grins, there are some other places in Ohio that when asked members of AA in those places will tell that AA was really founded there also. Just saying. tmd IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7214. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: changing the 12 steps From: intuited . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/8/2011 11:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thanks, Norman and Doug. These references were very helpful. The Indian Twelve Steps and their meeting formats were adapted to cultural norms and changed the name God to Great Spirit. Their meeting format includes the reading of both the original AA 12-steps as well as theirs. This allows the members to resonate with a broader potential. I'm guessing GSO doesn't have a problem with these since they use the AA ones also. The freethinkers use the Agnostic 12 steps taken from the NYC website, http://agnosticaanyc.org/ In contrast, these 12-steps remove any energy beyond the self except the wisdom of others. I believe this is an inferred rejection of love, consciousness, intuition or power beyond the self. I would have trouble referring a newbie struggling with their concept of divine transformation to such meetings. Alcoholism is a fatal disease, not to be taken lightly. Please convince me otherwise. By the way, I found this website interesting when searching on epistemology and intuition: http://consc.net/mindpapers/5.1i.1 Last year I met a man at a shaman conference who was working the shamanic 12 steps. Thought some of you might find these interesting. I don't know if they are listed locally in any directories. I have ordered a book on Shamanic Breathwork and the 12 steps to see what more I can glean. 12-STEPS OF SHAMANIC RECOVERY AND DISCOVERY 1. We accept that we are powerless over our addictive, compulsive and codependent patterns of thought and behavior â“ that in the attempt to fill the void rather than embrace it, our lives have become unmanageable. 2. Came to believe that a Power greater than anything we ever knew we could access within ourselves can open us to love and nurture us through our path of recovery and discovery. 3. Knowing that unconditional love is the healer we made a decision to surrender our will and our lives to the care of an inner Greater Power as we understand it. 4. Made a loving and fearless inventory of ourselves. 5. We share our inventory with our Greater Power and another person without the need for self-recrimination, knowing that in naming our shadow we will open our hearts. 6. Were entirely ready to have our Greater Power remove all these obstacles and give up the need to be perfect. 7. Humbly asked our Greater Power to help us let go of all our distractions from the divine that manifest in negative and self destructive patterns of thought and behavior. 8. Made a list of all the persons we have harmed while attempting to fill the void, and became willing to make amends to them all, forgiving them and ourselves. 9. Made direct amends to those we have harmed except when to do so would injure them or others. When making direct amends would cause harm, we make the amends through a ritual or ceremony that honors the other and ourselves. 10. Continue to take personal inventory daily, as an act of reverence, committing to our personal growth and when we are wrong, promptly admit it and lovingly accept responsibility for our mistakes. We also admitted when our boundaries have been violated and choose to fearlessly and lovingly tell the truth to free ourselves and others from the bondage of inauthentic living. 11. Grow through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with our inner Greater Power, praying only for knowledge of our Greater Powerâs will for us and the love and strength to carry that out in our daily lives by the practice of acting from love rather than fear. 12. As a result of these steps, we reach a greater understanding of our true selves and are able to carry the message of recovery and discovery in our daily lives. We may then live the passionate dance of co-creating our lives through the synthesis of our will and the will and wisdom of our inner Divine Spirit. Adapted from the teaching of Alcoholics Anonymous, Codependents Anonymous and Humans Anonymous. This expansion of the 12 Steps is lovingly offered from the participants and staff of Venus Rising to give hope and strength to anyone looking for soulful sobriety. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7215. . . . . . . . . . . . Lackland-Long Beach method of alcoholism treatment From: Bryan Reid . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2011 9:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Message #7208 contained a reference to a photo taken of the Hazelden treatment center in 1955: http://hindsfoot.org/kbs5.html That web page discussed the "Lackland method" with what I consider to be an extraordinary success ratio. I'm totally ignorant of the Lackland method and would be most appreciative if someone could steer me in the right direction to learn more about it. Bryan Highway 92 Group in Sierra Vista, Arizona. - - - - From G.C. the moderator: In early AA, the principal source of tension was not those who believed in God vs. those who were atheists. There weren't very many real atheists during the early period -- one or two or so that we know by name, seem to have been all they were. The tension was actually between those who emphasized the spiritual aspects of the program and those who stressed the psychological side of the program. An early AA figure named Sgt. Bill Swegan ended up as the principal spokesman for the side which wished to work AA almost completely as a psychological program. They were not classical Freudians (who claimed that all our problems went back to infancy -- alcoholics were people who didn't get enough breast feeding, etc.). They instead worked on the basis of the kind of psychology and psychiatry that was taught by Adler (Bill W's mother was an Adlerian therapist), Karen Horney, and Erik Erikson. Their theory was that most alcoholics underwent some kind of trauma during their childhood (they didn't have the right clothes to fit in at school, one of their parents was an alcoholic, one of their parents died, they were the victims of abuse, or whatever) where they stopped developing emotionally past that age. So you had a grown man or woman still throwing two-year-old temper tantrums or acting like an extremely obnoxious and out-of-control thirteen-year-old or something of the sort. Sometimes the alcoholic drinking started at that age, sometimes it did not begin until they were older. But they needed something like a good family -- one filled with wise father and mother figures, people who could act like good older brothers and sisters, and wise old grandparents and uncles and aunts -- who could gently and lovingly help them grow up emotionally. This was what the AA fellowship did -- it was the AA fellowship which healed.* You can read a short version of their teaching about alcoholism in Kenneth G. Merrill, "Drunks Are a Mess," published in a magazine for recovering alcoholics in prison, as part of a program (which he had himself helped start) for alcoholic convicts at the Indiana state penitentiary at Michigan City -- the second most famous early AA prison group, which had a 75% success rate when Ken and his people from South Bend were sponsoring it). http://hindsfoot.org/nsbend2.html Also see http://hindsfoot.org/NSBend3.html and http://hindsfoot.org/NSBend1.html It is called the Lackland-Long Beach method, because Bill Swegan developed the full-fledged version of the recovery program at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas, in 1953. Two other famous figures from AA history -- psychiatrist Dr. Joseph J. Zuska and AA member Dick Jewell -- gave Swegan's method further development in the mid 1960's at the Long Beach Naval Station in California. Nancy Olson (the founder of the AAHistoryLovers) talked about Joe Zuska and Dick Jewell in her book "With a Lot of Help from Our Friends": http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html Joe Zuska is still to this day one of the truly great and most beloved AA heroes in that part of California. Bill Swegan wrote about his own experiences in a book which was originally entitled "On the Military Firing Line in the Alcoholism Treatment Program." It is currently being re-issued in a second edition, to be entitled simply "The Psychology of Alcoholism." THE BLURB ON THE BACK OF THE BOOK WILL READ: ===================================== William E. Swegan (“Sgt. Bill”) was the major spokesman for the psychological wing of early Alcoholics Anonymous—that group within the newborn A.A. movement of the 1930’s, 40’s and 50’s which stressed the psychotherapeutic side of the twelve step program instead of the spiritual side. This book is Swegan’s major work, in which he lays out the psychiatric theories which formed the foundation of that variety of A.A. thought. He also talks about his association with Mrs. Marty Mann, Yev Gardner, E. M. Jellinek at the Yale School of Alcohol Studies, Bill Dotson (A.A. No. 3) and Searcy Whaley, in addition to recording his memories of the year he spent observing Sister Ignatia at work at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron. In 1953 Sgt. Bill teamed up with famous American psychiatrist Louis Jolyon “Jolly” West at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas, to develop a method of alcoholism treatment (given further development in the mid 1960s by Dr. Joseph J. Zuska and Dick Jewell at Long Beach Naval Station) called the Lackland-Long Beach Model. It became one of the three basic types of A.A.-oriented alcoholism treatment program, along with the Minnesota Model and Sister Ignatia’s more spiritually oriented approach. Sgt. Bill does not just talk psychiatric theories in this book. He uses his own life story to show how traumatic loss, poverty, inadequate self-esteem, envy, self-pity and rage can drive children and youths into isolationism, rebellion, self-sabotage, and ultimately the descent into uncontrollable alcoholism or drug addiction. But in his humanistic understanding of the twelve step program he also shows us how to make use of the healing power of the spirit of Love and Service to our fellow human beings to restore ourselves to new life. ===================================== For more information see: Bill Swegan's article on "The Psychology of Alcoholism" at http://hindsfoot.org/BSV02Psy.html http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kBS2.html http://hindsfoot.org/kBS3.html http://hindsfoot.org/kBS4.html http://hindsfoot.org/kBS5.html The section on William E. Swegan in the middle of the page at http://hindsfoot.org/essays.html http://hindsfoot.org/BSV01Thr.html ____________________________ *On the healing role of the AA fellowship, see also http://hindsfoot.org/kas1.html and http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7216. . . . . . . . . . . . Is this legend about NA writing AA true? From: David . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/8/2011 9:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have heard a story about a purported letter sent from NA headquarters to AA's GSO saying, in effect, Stop killing our people by telling them they can join AA. My question is: is this just an urban legend or does such a letter exist? And if it does exist, where could I find a copy of it? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7217. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is this legend about NA writing AA true? From: Jeff . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2011 9:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I can't vouch for the provenance of this letter, but here it is: Some thoughts regarding our relationship to Alcoholics Anonymous WORLD SERVICE BOARD OF TRUSTEES BULLETIN #13 This article was generated by the Narcotics Anonymous World Service Board of Trustees in November 1985 in response to the needs of their fellowship. This bulletin was revised during the 1995-1996 conference year. The question of just how Narcotics Anonymous relates to all other fellowships and organizations is one which may generate controversy within our fellowship. In spite of the fact that we have a stated policy of "cooperation, not affiliation" with outside organizations confusion remains. One such sensitive issue involves our relationship to the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous. Letters have been received by the World Service Board of Trustees asking a variety of questions about this relationship. Narcotics Anonymous is modeled after Alcoholics Anonymous. Nearly every NA community in existence has leaned to some degree on AA in its formative stages. Our relation-ship with that fellowship over the years has been very real and dynamic. Our fellowship itself sprang from the turmoil within AA over what to do with the addicts knocking on its doors. We will look at our roots for some perspective on our current relationship to AA. Bill W, one of AA's co-founders, often said that one of AA's greatest strengths is its single-minded focus on one thing and one thing only. By limiting its primary purpose to carrying the message to alcoholics, and avoiding all other activities, AA is able to do that one thing supremely well. The atmosphere of identification is preserved by that purity of focus, and alcoholics get help. From very early on, AA was confronted by a perplexing problem: "What do we do with drug addicts? We want to keep our focus on alcohol so the alcoholic hears the message, but these addicts come in here talking about drugs, inadvertently weakening our atmosphere of identification." The steps were written, the Big Book was written—what were they supposed to do, rewrite it all? Allow the atmosphere of identification to get blurry so that no one got a clear sense of belonging? Kick these dying people back out into the streets? The problem must have been a tremendous one for them. When they finally studied the problem carefully and took a stand in their literature, the solution they outlined possessed their characteristic common sense and wisdom. They pledged their support in a spirit of "cooperation, not affiliation." This farsighted solution to a difficult concern paved the way for the development of the Narcotics Anonymous Fellowship. But still, the problem that they wished to avoid would have to be addressed by any group that tried to adapt AA's program of recovery to drug addicts. How do you achieve the atmosphere of identification so necessary for surrender and recovery if you let all different kinds of addicts in? Can someone with a heroin problem relate to someone with an alcohol or marijuana or Valium problem? How will you ever achieve the unity that the First Tradition says is necessary for recovery? Our fellowship inherited a tough dilemma. For some perspective on how we handled that dilemma, one more look at AA history is helpful. Another thing Bill W. frequently wrote and spoke about was what he called the "tenstrike" of AA—the wording of the Third and Eleventh Steps. The whole area of spirituality versus religion was as perplexing for them as unity was for us. Bill liked to recount that the simple addition of the words "as we understood Him" after the word "God" killed that controversy in one chop. An issue that had the potential to divide and destroy AA was converted into the cornerstone of the program by that simple turn of phrase. As the founders of Narcotics Anonymous adapted our steps, they came up with a "tenstrike" of perhaps equal importance. Rather than converting the First Step in a natural, logical way ("we admitted that we were powerless over drugs..."), they made a radical change in that step. They wrote, "We admitted that we were powerless over our addiction..." Drugs are a varied group of substances, the use of any of which is but a symptom of our disease. When addicts gather and focus on drugs, they are usually focusing on their differences, because each of us used a different drug or combination of drugs. The one thing that we all share is the disease of addiction. With that single turn of a phrase, the foundation of the Narcotics Anonymous Fellowship was laid. Our First Step gives us one focus: our addiction. The wording of Step One also takes the focus of our powerlessness off the symptom and places it on the disease itself. The phrase "powerless over a drug" does not go far enough for most of us in recovery -- the desire to use has been removed -- but "powerless over our addiction" is as relevant to the oldtimer as it is to the newcomer. Our addiction begins to resurface and cause unmanageability in our thoughts and feelings whenever we become complacent in our program of recovery. This process has nothing to do with "drug of choice." We guard against the recurrence of our drug use by applying our spiritual principles, before a relapse. Our First Step applies regardless of drug of choice and length of clean time. With this "tenstrike" as its foundation, NA has begun to flourish as a major worldwide organization, clearly focusing on addiction.. As any NA community matures in its understanding of its own principles (particularly Step One), an interesting fact emerges. The AA perspective, with its alcohol-oriented language, and the NA approach, with its clear need to shift the focus away from specific drugs, don't mix well. When we try to mix them, we find that we have the same problem as AA had with us all along! When our members identify as "addicts and alcoholics" or talk about "sobriety" and living "clean and sober," the clarity of the NA message is blurred. The implication in this language is that there are two diseases, that one drug is separate from another, so a separate set of terms is needed when discussing addiction. At first glance this seems minor, but our experience clearly shows that the full impact of the NA message is crippled by this subtle semantic confusion. It has become clear that our common identification, our unity, and our full surrender as addicts depends on a clear understanding of our most fundamental principles: We are powerless over a disease that gets progressively worse when we use any drug. It does not matter what drug was at the center for us when we arrived. Any drug we use will release our disease all over again. We recover from the disease of addiction by applying our Twelve Steps. Our steps are uniquely worded to carry this message clearly, so the rest of our language of recovery must be consistent with our steps. We cannot mix these fundamental principles with those of our parent fellowship without crippling our own message. Both fellowships have a Sixth Tradition for a reason: to keep each one from being diverted from its own primary purpose. Because of the inherent need of a Twelve Step fellowship to focus on one thing and one thing only, so that it can do that one thing supremely well, each Twelve Step fellowship must stand alone, unaffiliated with everything else. It is in our nature to be separate, to feel separate, and use a separate set of recovery terms, because we each have a separate, unique primary purpose. The focus of AA is on the alcoholic, and we ought to respect that fellowship's perfect right to adhere to its own traditions and protect its focus. If we cannot use language consistent with that, we ought not go to their meetings and undermine that atmosphere. In the same way, we NA members ought to respect our own primary purpose and identify ourselves at NA meetings simply as addicts, and share in a way that keeps our message clear. A casual, cursory glance at AA's success in delivering recovery to alcoholics over the years makes it abundantly clear that theirs is a successful program. Their literature, their service structure, the quality of their members' recovery, their sheer numbers, the respect they enjoy from society—these things speak for themselves. Our members ought not embarrass us by adopting a "we're better than them" posture. That can only be counterproductive. As a fellowship, we must continue to strive to move forward by not stubbornly clinging to one radical extreme or the other. Our members who have been unintentionally blurring the NA message by using drug-specific language such as "sobriety," "alcoholic," "clean and sober," "dope fiend," etc., could help by identifying simply and clearly as addicts, and using the words "clean," "clean time," and "recovery," which imply no particular substance. We all could help by referring to only our own literature at meetings, thereby avoiding any implied endorsement or affiliation. Our principles stand on their own. For the sake of our development as a fellowship and the personal recovery of our members, our approach to the problem of addiction must shine through clearly in what we say and do at meetings. Our members who have used these arguments to rationalize an anti-AA stand, thereby alienating many sorely needed stable members, would do well to re-evaluate and reconsider the effects of that kind of behavior. Narcotics Anonymous is a spiritual fellowship. Love, tolerance, patience, and cooperation are essential if we are to live our principles. Let's devote our energies to our personal spiritual development through our own Twelve Steps. Let's carry our own message clearly. There's a lot of work to be done, and we need each other if we are to be effective. Let's move forward in a spirit of NA unity. (Reprinted from Newsline Vol. 2, No. 6.) --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "David" wrote: > > I have heard a story about a purported letter sent from NA headquarters to AA's GSO saying, in effect, Stop killing our people by telling them they can join AA. > > My question is: is this just an urban legend or does such a letter exist? And if it does exist, where could I find a copy of it? > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7218. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/8/2011 8:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII THE STORY OF ALANON OF NEW JERSEY Cindy's suggestion is an interesting one. There are many similarities in the story and the narration of "Rule 62" in the 12 & 12. This will require some additional research. For now, please enjoy "The Story of Alanon of New Jersey" This pamphlet was authored in 1948 and an original can be found in the GSO archives. We are preparing to re-release here in Northern NJ as we are currently completing a history display for the Alanon Club. God Bless John B. - Area 44 Archives _________________________________________ The Story of ALANON of New Jersey THIS PAMPHLET is issued to assist many persons in AA who are not clear in their minds about the Alanon Club. They have been unable to recognize the distinction between the Club and the Movement proper. With so many new alcoholics coming into AA daily, a good portion of them joining Alanon, we are constantly plied with questions concerning the Club's exact status. SOCIAL HAVEN The Alanon Association is a social for club for sincere AAs in good standing. Its job is to provide AAs with a place to visit and enjoy on another's friendship and companionship under the most congenial conditions within our grasp. It endeavors to furnish amusement and diversion for the members and their families and to serve all members of Alcoholics Anonymous in need of the help and comfort which comes of group fellowship as practiced in the Movement. Alanon functions actively in the rehabilitation of the men and women of AA. The Alanon Club directly engages in no AA therapeutic work whatsoever. It adheres rigidly to the AA tradition as propounded by the Alcoholic Foundation, but it is neither a "Group" nor a central body in any sense. Purely and simply, it is a recreation center for the individual embers of AA in New Jersey–who own it. Alanon seeks no rights or jurisdiction in any other unit within the Movement; by the same token, it is a legally chartered non–profit corporation of New Jersey entirely controlled and operated by its own membership, who annually elect a board of five trustees to manage it. In the event it should ever be liquidated, the proceeds would go to the Foundation. FACILITIES The ample club house, measuring 80 feet long by 50 feet wide on a 100 x 100 plot, is fully equipped with club facilities. In the basement are located its four bowling alleys which are busy seven days a week, the card room, toilets, heating plant, etc. On the first floor are spacious lounging parlors equipped with a $1,999 Television-Radio combination and a grand piano in good condition. This floor also contains a huge recreation room where three pool tables and a shuffleboard do yeomen service, and our kitchen and coffee bar, which are in operation from 9:00 A.M. to the closing hour of midnight, (1:00 A.M. Friday and Saturday nights). A large auditorium seating 400, occupies most of the second floor, with the ladies' powder room, Intergroup office and storeroom making up the balance. Maintenance and operation of the club house is handled by a staff of paid workers, under the supervision of the club manager. Owing to the financial obligations involved, the club management finds it necessary to retain control over major social functions, through the help of members working through committees has proven of great value and is encouraged. ACTIVITIES The club is a bedlam of fun-making on weekends, particularly on Saturday nights. In fact, a social function is arranged for almost every Saturday night in the year. Also, special programs are staged on significant holidays, such as Hallowe'en,(sic) Thanksgiving, St. Patrick's Day, Christmas, and highlight of the year, New Year's Eve. These functions are of a wide variety, and include dances, costume parties, card parties, Monte Carlo nights, game nights, musical entertainment, night club floor shows and Broadway-type reviews. Generally, all the talent workers for those affairs are drawn from the club membership. Activity is by no means confined to weekends, however. Every night there is plenty of action, at the pool tables, shuffleboard, television and card room. Besides, the tables adjoining the coffee bar and the big arm chairs in the parlors are abuzz with AAs in "bull" sessions. It is a rare night that does not count a minimum of 75 to 100 members and twice that number is the usual nightly complement. FINANCES The club is on a sound financial basis and boasts of a satisfactory balance in the bank. The property itself was purchased outright in November, 1944, for $22,000 and is now in its fourth year of operation. A non-alcoholic friend of several years standing advanced us $15,000 on a first mortgage, and 91 AAs who helped to found the club loaned an additional $9,000. To them were issued Certificates of Indebtedness which will become due and payable in 1955, bearing 3% interest. These Certificates are, in effect, promissory notes. They do not constitute a lien against the property, but they are a legal obligation and their integrity is guaranteed by the assets and honor of the organization. To date, grateful members have endorsed back to the club nearly $1,000 worth of these Certificates. Up to the present time, the club has reduced the mortgage on the property by about $4,000, and set aside $1,500 additional in a sinking fund toward the amortization of the Certificates of Indebtedness. Present intention is to deposit $1,000 a year in the sinking fund until the Certificates mature. REVENUES The sources of operating revenues consist of dues, which are nominal now; sale of coffee, sandwiches, ice cream, etc., at the coffee bar; fees for the use of the bowling, pool, etc., facilities and contributions at the social events in the auditorium. The Club is necessarily conducted strictly along business lines, on a cash basis and with no tabs or deferred accounts. Members three months in arrears in dues are posted on the bulletin board. Contributions from AA groups are not solicited, though occasionally voluntary donations are received from this source. Groups also sometimes sponsor dances, etc., in the auditorium, and turn the proceeds over to the club treasury. Through the cooperation of the municipal and county governments, the club property is legally exempt from all local taxes, because of its recognized rehabilitation work. OWNERSHIP Folks ask, "Who owns the Alanon? The Groups? The Intergroup Committee? The Newark AAs? A clique of bondholders or stockholders? A band of private individuals?" To answer all of the above there is but a single answer: NO. Alanon's charter stipulates that its individual members shall always be its sole owners. Any New Jersey AA is eligible to join Alanon, and when he or she joins, he or she automatically becomes an owner of the Association's property and assets in common with all other members. No Group or Committee or any other organized band of AAs can have any rights of ownership or control over the club. There are no bondholders or stockholders because no bonds or shares of stock were ever issued. The club charter specifies that membership in Alanon is open to any New Jersey AA, which means that no local group from any particular locality enjoys any prior rights over the remainder of the state. At the present writing, February 1948, these owner-members number 560, and they belong to 43 AA groups scattered over the State. SOME HISTORY Others want to know exactly what is the Alanon Club? What does it do? Does it dry out drunks on their way into AA? And "slippers"? Does it provide manpower for the 12th Step work? Or speakers for group meetings? Does it fix a fellow up for a night's lodging? Does it give out alms? Again the answer is in the negative. The above questions embrace straight AA work, which is the province of the Groups, the Intergroup or individual AAs. Disastrous experience has taught us that Club activities and Group work do not mix. The Club cannot dry a man out, but it does provide the recreation needed for his rehabilitation. We had hardly opened our own doors in the beginning when we discovered, to our consternation, that we were developing our own "skid row" in the club house. Its denizens consisted of newcomers still under the influence of alcohol coming in to be sobered up; chronic "slippers," resting between periodic binges; insincere members on the prowl for unwary AA members with a bankroll; visitors of sorts from Mulberry Street in search of a "flop" or whatnot, and "touch" artists of various stripes and skills. These are only a few of the many types of undesirable phonies we encountered. 12th Step work in those early days posed an almost insuperable problem. As the public became aware of Alanon, they regarded it as a sought of AA headquarters, with the result that by phone, mail and personal calls, every passing day brought a steady stream of requests for help from social workers, the clergy, family, courts, the police, welfare agencies, ordinary citizens, and, of course, AAs everywhere. But it got to be too much. We hadn't the manpower to cope with the calls, and besides, most AAs came to the club for relaxation, having attended to their AA work, including the 12th Step, through their own groups. They looked to Alanon for social diversion with other dry AAs. We finally realized we had to be a club or a clinic – we could not be both. INTERGROUP The Intergroup Committee cleared the way for the necessary separation. The club had made the formation of Intergroup possible after earlier efforts along these lines had failed for lack of a common meeting place and other facilities. The same membership that founded Alanon also organized Intergroup, and it was thought at first that both units could function efficiently in combination. In fact, the same person acted as secretary and manager for both organizations. However, the joint operation lasted only a little more than a year when it collapsed amid confusion and dissatisfaction SEPARATION Then the separation was made complete. Both Alanon and Intergroup revamped their policies, the former becoming exclusively a social club and recreation center for dry AAs in good standing, and the Committee a central clearance station for AA groups and members, mass meetings, information, and our relations with the world outside. The result has met with commendable success. All confusion has ended and each organization is operating with incomparably greater efficiency. Both units now are completely separate and independent of each other, save in one respect. Rent free, Intergroup maintains its private office in the club and holds the monthly mass meetings there. However, in the belief that its central office can function better away from the club the Intergroup is presently seeking other quarters. BILL'S IDEAS We are including below excerpts from Founder Bill's article on Clubs in AA, now officially part of AA Tradition. We believe the Alanon operation in Newark is not inconsistent with Bill's present thinking. There is real separation of the material from the spiritual. The business of AA is not encroached upon. Newark is the center of a large urban area, but more than three years of successful operation has demonstrated that it is possible for this club to be a continuing help to alcoholics, in strict accordance with AA principles. COME IN; IT'S YOURS Alanon's doors are always open to AAs everywhere. We bid welcome to all. Guest may be had for the asking. Owner-membership is open to all AAs in good standing after thirty days in any group. Excerpts from CLUBS IN AA By BILL The club idea has become part of A.A. life. Scores of these hospitable havens can report years of useful service; new ones are being started monthly. Were a vote taken tomorrow on the desirability of clubs a sizeable majority of A.A.s would record a resounding "Yes." There would be thousands who would testify that they might have had a harder time staying sober in their first months of A.A. without clubs and that, in any case, they would always wish the easy contacts and warm friendships which clubs afford. …Toward a middle ground, for several years now, we have been feeling our way. Despite alarms it is quite settled that A.A.s who need and want clubs ought to have them. Throughout the country most clubs have started like ours did. At first we regard them as central A.A. institutions. But later experience invariably brings a shift in their status, a shift much to be desired, we now think. This tangle slowly commenced to unravel, as we began to get the idea that clubs ought to be strictly the business of those individuals who especially want clubs, and who are willing to pay for them. We began to see that club management is a pure business proposition which ought to be separately incorporated under another name such, for example, as "Alanon"; that the "directors" of a club corporation ought to look after club business only; that an A.A. group, as such, should never get into active management of a business project. Hectic experience has since taught us that if an A.A. rotating committee tries to boss the club corporation or if the corporation tries to run the A.A. affairs of those groups who may meet at the club there is difficulty at once. The only way we have found to cure this is to separate the material from the spiritual. Questions are often asked: "Who elects the business directors of a club?" And "Does club membership differ from A.A. membership?" As practices vary we don't quite know the answers yet. The most reasonable suggestions seem these: Any A.A. member ought to feel free to enjoy the ordinary privileges of any A.A. club whether be makes a regular voluntary contribution or not. If he contributes regularly be should, in addition be entitled to vote in the business meetings which elect the business directors of his club corporation. This would open all clubs to all A.A.s. But it would limit their business conduct to those interested enough to contribute regularly. In this connection we might remind ourselves that in A.A. we have no fees or compulsory dues. But it ought to be added, of course, that since clubs are becoming separate and private ventures they can be run on other lines if their members insist. Acceptance of large sums from any source to buy, build or finance clubs almost invariably leads to later headaches. Public solicitation is, of course, extremely dangerous. Complete self-support of clubs and everything else connected with A.A. is becoming our universal practice. Club evolution is also telling us this: In none but small communities are clubs likely to remain the principal centers of A.A. activity. Originally starting as the main center of a city many a club moves to larger and larger quarters, thinking to retain the central meeting for its area within its own walls. Finally, however, circumstances defeat this purpose. Circumstance number one is that the growing A.A. will burst the walls of any clubhouse. Sooner or later the principal or central meeting has to be moved into a large auditorium. The club can't hold it. This is a fact which ought to be soberly contemplated whenever we think of buying or building large clubhouses. A second circumstance seems sure to leave most clubs in an "off center" position, especially in large cities. That is our strong tendency toward central or intergroup committee management of the common A.A. problems of metropolitan areas. Every area, sooner or later, realizes that such concerns as intergroup meetings, hospital arrangements, local public relations, a central office for interviews and information, are things in which every A.A. is interested, whether be has any use for clubs or not. These being strictly A.A. matters, a central or intergroup committee has to be elected and financed to look after them. The groups of an area will usually support with group funds these truly central activities. Even though the club is still large enough for intergroup meetings and these meetings are still held, the center of gravity for the area will continue to shift to the intergroup committee and its central activities. The club is left definitely offside; where, in the opinion of many, it should be. Actively supported and managed by those who want clubs, they can be "taken or left alone." Should these principles be fully applied to our clubs, we shall have placed ourselves in a position to enjoy their warmth yet drop any that get too hot. We shall then realize that a club is but a valuable social aid. And, more important still, we shall always preserve the simple A.A. group as that primary spiritual entity whence issues our greatest strength. * * * The Board of Trustees Alanon Association Inc. Of New Jersey --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Cindy Miller wrote: > > In the late 90's I attended an Archives Workshop held at the "Alanon Association" club in Newark, NJ. (This name is a contraction of alcoholics Anonymous. The Al-anon Fellowship had not been founded yet.) > > This building had been purchased and opened as a Clubhouse in the early 40's. (One of the first--it was a big deal.) As I recall, it had 3 floors -- one with restaurant/catering facilities, one with a bowling alley -- and of course, meeting rooms. It was said that this was the model AA complex talked about in Tradition 4. Could some North Jersey member corroborate/correct this info? > > North Jersey has GREAT Archives. Saw the actual "Rule 62" card displayed there, as well as many fliers for events with Bill W. in attendance. > > In service, > Cindy Miller > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7219. . . . . . . . . . . . Magazine article: critics can be our benefactors From: Rae Turnbull . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2011 9:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello, My question is: In segment 3 of "Language of the Heart" Bill W prefaces the article "Our Critics Can Be Our Benefactors" by stating "When a magazine criticizing aspects of AA raised questions about AA's relationships to medicine, religion, and the world at large ...." Does anyone know which magazine he was referring to and what date the article was published? Thanks for any help with this question. Rae T Bookmarks Corpus Christi, Texas IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7220. . . . . . . . . . . . Looking for a photo of Jim Newton From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2011 11:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Could someone kindly send me a picture of the Jim Newton who helped Bud Firestone find sobriety? Thanks in advance! Bob S. ___________________________________________ Mail to: (rstonebraker212 at comcast.net) Bob Stonebraker 212 SW 18th Street Richmond, Indiana 47374 phone (765) 935-0130 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7221. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Magazine article: critics can be our benefactors From: ron.fulkerson@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2011 7:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Rae, The article was in HARPER'S Magazine, February 1963, written by Arthur H. Cain. If you love AA and it saved your life, this article is a tough read. -- ronf (Should you want copies, let us know.) - - - - Message #7219 from Rae Turnbull (raeturnbull at sbcglobal.net) In segment 3 of "Language of the Heart" Bill W prefaces the article "Our Critics Can Be Our Benefactors" by stating "When a magazine criticizing aspects of AA raised questions about AA's relationships to medicine, religion, and the world at large ...." Does anyone know which magazine he was referring to and what date the article was published? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7222. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is this legend about NA writing AA true? From: Michael . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2011 11:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi all, This was not a letter to AA. This was simply a Bulletin from NA's Word Services prepared for their own membership (from 1985). You can view it on the NA website [OR SEE THE COPY OF THAT BULLETIN BELOW]: http://www.wsoinc.com/?ID=bulletins-bull13-r I have seen this before and for the life of me I don't see how anyone could interpret this as a message to AA telling them to "Stop killing our people by telling them they can join AA" (Did he mean "can't instead of can? Either way I don't see it.) To me this bulletin is stressing respect between the fellowships and simply outlining a different philosophy when it comes to the First Step. I don't see anything contentious in there. In fact, it really seems to me that the bulletin is calling out their own members to check their attitudes toward AA and stop fostering any anti AA feelings. The fellowships have so much in common and mature members in both have a mutual respect for each other and see the commonality. We're cut from the same cloth (Bill said we were "cousins" to the drug addict) and we're both striving for the same thing. Thanks, Mike Margetis Brunswick, Maryland ============================================= NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS WORLD SERVICES Bulletin #13 http://www.wsoinc.com/?ID=bulletins-bull13-r Some thoughts regarding our relationship to Alcoholics Anonymous This article was generated by the World Service Board of Trustees in November 1985 in response to the needs of the fellowship. This bulletin was revised during the 1995-1996 conference year. The question of just how Narcotics Anonymous relates to all other fellowships and organizations is one which may generate controversy within our fellowship. In spite of the fact that we have a stated policy of "cooperation, not affiliation" with outside organizations confusion remains. One such sensitive issue involves our relationship to the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous. Letters have been received by the World Service Board of Trustees asking a variety of questions about this relationship. Narcotics Anonymous is modeled after Alcoholics Anonymous. Nearly every NA community in existence has leaned to some degree on AA in its formative stages. Our relationship with that fellowship over the years has been very real and dynamic. Our fellowship itself sprang from the turmoil within AA over what to do with the addicts knocking on its doors. We will look at our roots for some perspective on our current relationship to AA. Bill W, one of AA's co-founders, often said that one of AA's greatest strengths is its single-minded focus on one thing and one thing only. By limiting its primary purpose to carrying the message to alcoholics, and avoiding all other activities, AA is able to do that one thing supremely well. The atmosphere of identification is preserved by that purity of focus, and alcoholics get help. From very early on, AA was confronted by a perplexing problem: "What do we do with drug addicts? We want to keep our focus on alcohol so the alcoholic hears the message, but these addicts come in here talking about drugs, inadvertently weakening our atmosphere of identification." The steps were written, the Big Book was writtenâ”what were they supposed to do, rewrite it all? Allow the atmosphere of identification to get blurry so that no one got a clear sense of belonging? Kick these dying people back out into the streets? The problem must have been a tremendous one for them. When they finally studied the problem carefully and took a stand in their literature, the solution they outlined possessed their characteristic common sense and wisdom. They pledged their support in a spirit of "cooperation, not affiliation." This farsighted solution to a difficult concern paved the way for the development of the Narcotics Anonymous Fellowship. But still, the problem that they wished to avoid would have to be addressed by any group that tried to adapt AAâs program of recovery to drug addicts. How do you achieve the atmosphere of identification so necessary for surrender and recovery if you let all different kinds of addicts in? Can someone with a heroin problem relate to someone with an alcohol or marijuana or Valium problem? How will you ever achieve the unity that the First Tradition says is necessary for recovery? Our fellowship inherited a tough dilemma. For some perspective on how we handled that dilemma, one more look at AA history is helpful. Another thing Bill W. frequently wrote and spoke about was what he called the "tenstrike" of AAâ”the wording of the Third and Eleventh Steps. The whole area of spirituality versus religion was as perplexing for them as unity was for us. Bill liked to recount that the simple addition of the words "as we understood Him" after the word "God" killed that controversy in one chop. An issue that had the potential to divide and destroy AA was converted into the cornerstone of the program by that simple turn of phrase. As the founders of Narcotics Anonymous adapted our steps, they came up with a "tenstrike" of perhaps equal importance. Rather than converting the First Step in a natural, logical way ("we admitted that we were powerless over drugs..."), they made a radical change in that step. They wrote, "We admitted that we were powerless over our addiction..." Drugs are a varied group of substances, the use of any of which is but a symptom of our disease. When addicts gather and focus on drugs, they are usually focusing on their differences, because each of us used a different drug or combination of drugs. The one thing that we all share is the disease of addiction. With that single turn of a phrase, the foundation of the Narcotics Anonymous Fellowship was laid. Our First Step gives us one focus: our addiction. The wording of Step One also takes the focus of our powerlessness off the symptom and places it on the disease itself. The phrase "powerless over a drug" does not go far enough for most of us in recoveryâ”the desire to use has been removedâ”but "powerless over our addiction" is as relevant to the oldtimer as it is to the newcomer. Our addiction begins to resurface and cause unmanageability in our thoughts and feelings whenever we become complacent in our program of recovery. This process has nothing to do with "drug of choice." We guard against the recurrence of our drug use by applying our spiritual principles, before a relapse. Our First Step applies regardless of drug of choice and length of clean time. With this "tenstrike" as its foundation, NA has begun to flourish as a major worldwide organization, clearly focusing on addiction. As any NA community matures in its understanding of its own principles (particularly Step One), an interesting fact emerges. The AA perspective, with its alcohol-oriented language, and the NA approach, with its clear need to shift the focus away from specific drugs, donât mix well. When we try to mix them, we find that we have the same problem as AA had with us all along! When our members identify as "addicts and alcoholics" or talk about "sobriety" and living "clean and sober," the clarity of the NA message is blurred. The implication in this language is that there are two diseases, that one drug is separate from another, so a separate set of terms is needed when discussing addiction. At first glance this seems minor, but our experience clearly shows that the full impact of the NA message is crippled by this subtle semantic confusion. It has become clear that our common identification, our unity, and our full surrender as addicts depends on a clear understanding of our most fundamental principles: We are powerless over a disease that gets progressively worse when we use any drug. It does not matter what drug was at the center for us when we arrived. Any drug we use will release our disease all over again. We recover from the disease of addiction by applying our Twelve Steps. Our steps are uniquely worded to carry this message clearly, so the rest of our language of recovery must be consistent with our steps. We cannot mix these fundamental principles with those of our parent fellowship without crippling our own message. Both fellowships have a Sixth Tradition for a reason: to keep each one from being diverted from its own primary purpose. Because of the inherent need of a Twelve Step fellowship to focus on one thing and one thing only, so that it can do that one thing supremely well, each Twelve Step fellowship must stand alone, unaffiliated with everything else. It is in our nature to be separate, to feel separate, and use a separate set of recovery terms, because we each have a separate, unique primary purpose. The focus of AA is on the alcoholic, and we ought to respect that fellowshipâs perfect right to adhere to its own traditions and protect its focus. If we cannot use language consistent with that, we ought not go to their meetings and undermine that atmosphere. In the same way, we NA members ought to respect our own primary purpose and identify ourselves at NA meetings simply as addicts, and share in a way that keeps our message clear. A casual, cursory glance at AAâs success in delivering recovery to alcoholics over the years makes it abundantly clear that theirs is a successful program. Their literature, their service structure, the quality of their members' recovery, their sheer numbers, the respect they enjoy from societyâ”these things speak for themselves. Our members ought not embarrass us by adopting a "we're better than them" posture. That can only be counterproductive. As a fellowship, we must continue to strive to move forward by not stubbornly clinging to one radical extreme or the other. Our members who have been unintentionally blurring the NA message by using drug-specific language such as "sobriety," "alcoholic," "clean and sober," "dope fiend," etc., could help by identifying simply and clearly as addicts, and using the words "clean," "clean time," and "recovery," which imply no particular substance. We all could help by referring to only our own literature at meetings, thereby avoiding any implied endorsement or affiliation. Our principles stand on their own. For the sake of our development as a fellowship and the personal recovery of our members, our approach to the problem of addiction must shine through clearly in what we say and do at meetings. Our members who have used these arguments to rationalize an anti-AA stand, thereby alienating many sorely needed stable members, would do well to re-evaluate and reconsider the effects of that kind of behavior. Narcotics Anonymous is a spiritual fellowship. Love, tolerance, patience, and cooperation are essential if we are to live our principles. Let's devote our energies to our personal spiritual development through our own Twelve Steps. Let's carry our own message clearly. There's a lot of work to be done, and we need each other if we are to be effective. Let's move forward in a spirit of NA unity. (Reprinted from Newsline Vol. 2, No. 6.) ============================================= Original message from "David" said: > > I have heard a story about a purported letter sent from NA headquarters to AA's GSO saying, in effect, Stop killing our people by telling them they can join AA. > > My question is: is this just an urban legend or does such a letter exist? And if it does exist, where could I find a copy of it? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7223. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Is this legend about NA writing AA true? From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2011 2:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My friend Boyd and I have made two trips to the AA GSO in the past 18 months after we had research applications approved for the purpose of viewing the archives for any correspondence/information between AA GSO and other individuals/groups/fellowships dealing with problems other than alcohol. We spent a total of four days scouring over everything we could find on Addicts Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous (4 distinct efforts - New York, California, Cleveland and Montreal), and others. The only correspondence we found from Narcotics Anonymous World Services to the GSO were: 1. A response from the GSO in 1989 to a request for any correspondence/information about NA 2. An undated response to a similar request that references the 1989 request We did not come across a letter from NA World Services making any such request. On the contrary, much of what we discovered involved correspondence that led up to the Bill's 1958 Grapevine article: Problems Other Than Alcohol: What Can Be Done About Them?" There is one other piece of correspondence that is noteworthy. The following letter is from an employee, at the time, of the NA World Service Office, which was submitted to the Grapevine. See below. Thanks, Chris B. Raleigh, North Carolina ============================================ March 1986 Vol. 42 No. 10 Another Vision for You I am not a member of Alcoholics Anonymous, but I am among the millions of people who owe our lives to the Twelve Steps of recovery. Bill W.'s vision of other societies similar to AA forming to address problems other than alcoholism is very much a reality today. Thanks to the inspiration and vision of your co-founders, and the current generosity of your Fellowship in sharing its experience, a few of these other Fellowships are becoming strong, well-developed programs of recovery, with a network of local and world services, hotlines, literature, old-timers, service centers employing special workers -- all the necessary ingredients. As a member of one of those other Fellowships, I'm writing to the Grapevine as an outside writer, but the issue I'm addressing is not an outside issue. I'm writing about addicts attending AA meetings -- perhaps an issue that most of us are tired of dealing with -- but one whose solution is finally at hand. After years of internal controversy in AA (and in fellowships modeled after AA), just maybe we're at a place where the turmoil can stop. The solution envisioned by Bill W., articulated in your pamphlet Problems Other Than Alcohol, can finally be implemented with confidence. I am a drug addict who came to AA in 1978 looking for help. When the suggestion that I go to AA to address my drug problem was first put to me I was puzzled. "My problem is this other drug. Why would I go to AA?" It was explained to me that AA is what works, and no one could kick me out. No one has the authority to do that. "Just substitute alcohol for your drug," I was told, "and it will work." I did that. I went to AA for a period of about four years. I learned the "passwords" that would not offend the oldtimers, and I made a place for myself in your Fellowship. I was also introduced to Narcotics Anonymous from the very beginning, but in 1978 NA had very little literature, no old-timers locally to serve as sponsors, no network of services for its groups. I went to that NA meeting to identify more fully and share more fully, and I went to AA for the substance of recovery. Those were the realities of being a recovering drug addict in the upper Midwest in the late seventies. As I stayed around and observed both Fellowships closely, I could not miss the great dilemma that was brewing about us addicts in AA. I did not take this problem personally, because I read the words of Bill W. and they made sense. The primary purpose of every AA group is to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers. As AA groups try to carry their message to anyone else, that atmosphere of identification for the alcoholic is weakened. If an alcoholic walks into an AA meeting and encounters a discussion among junkies, gamblers, overeaters, or whatever, that alcoholic may just miss his shot at the miracle. I slowly became more and more aware that I was the outsider in AA; that old-timer who got irritated when I shared about my drug use was on his home ground, and I was straining his Traditions. It has been a tough issue for us all. But what were the AA people to do in 1978? Throw us out? Even if that were possible in AA, who had the heart? "What would the Master do?" it says in the "Twelve and Twelve." Where would we go? Most of our NA groups were not part of a worldwide structure that could sustain us in recovery. In many places, the compromise measure seems to have been to just overlook the issue as best as we could and go on about our recovery. And the wisdom of the co-founder has been borne out again. Many AA groups have become a mix of alcoholics and people addicted to other drugs, and many of those NA groups' growth has been stunted. They were not seriously regarded as part of a separate Fellowship capable of sustaining recovery. The service of recovering addicts went into AA services. As addicts got some time in recovery, they became AA sponsors. The texture of the AA community was slowly drifting from a clear atmosphere of identification for the alcoholic, and the texture of those isolated NA groups was remaining pretty static. With the eighties came a vast change in that scenario. More and more recovering addicts began to turn our attention to the developing Fellowship of NA. We got busy writing literature, developing our services at every level, refining our own thinking and language for our own principles of recovery. We had learned so much from our forerunners in AA, and now we were breaking some new ground. It has been an exciting period of new hope for the addict who still suffers. And ironically, maybe it is an exciting period of renewed hope for the alcoholic who still suffers too. By going exclusively to NA, doing my service in NA, growing in my understanding of the NA message, I have left the AA groups just a little freer to focus on their own primary purpose. That is not personal. It's sound principle. Today NA is thriving. We have our own basic text, and we're in the later stages of producing a book on our Steps and Traditions. We are experiencing the kind of booming growth that AA experienced in the forties. Our world services are coming together in a way that can only be attributed to a loving God, expressing himself in our group conscience. It has been a time of the joy and pain of rapid growth for us, and we expect this growth rate to continue for some time to come. I guess I'm really saying a number of things. First, thank you AA, for your wisdom in taking the stand that you can best help the addict not by allowing us to become members, but by offering us the model of your program and inspiring us to build our own. Even though the realities of life have sometimes forced us all to compromise, your Conference and your written word never lost perspective. That vision is now bearing fruit. I also want to assure you that strong, stable, long-term recovery is available today in NA, so the days of worrying that addicts are just being kicked out into the street are over. Many addicts are pointed in our direction by AA groups adhering to their own primary purpose. A fast friendship, based on "cooperation, not affiliation," is cropping up between us everywhere. It goes without saying that these words are one member's views -- I do not speak for my Fellowship any more than these other articles speak for yours. But let's all look at these issues now from the vantage point of our best spiritual vision of the future. The time for coming to rest on this issue is finally at hand. R. H. Northridge, California ============================================ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7224. . . . . . . . . . . . Stepping Stones archives microfilmed digitized, put on line From: John Moore . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/14/2011 2:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A project is underway to microfilm the Stepping Stones archival material, digitize it, and eventually make it available to researchers on line. See this article by Rob Ryser entitled "Bedford archives of AA co-founder to be preserved" http://www.lohud.com/article/20110314/NEWS02/103140343/Bedford-archives-AA-c o-fo\ %5Cunder-preserved?odyssey=nav [8]|head BEDFORD HILLS — Anyone who has ever loved a drunk knows how much a pledge to quit drinking is worth. But these are not ordinary broken promises. The quit-drinking oaths that a certain Bill Wilson swore to his wife 80 years ago on the family Bible are now considered so valuable to the Alcoholics Anonymous story and to American history in general that they can no longer be entrusted merely to safe storage here at the couple's historic home and grounds. "Those archives are a national treasure," said Manhattan writer Susan Cheever, who used the archives extensively for her 2004 biography of Wilson. "AA is one of the most extraordinary things that has ever happened in our world, and he was one of the three or four most important men of the 20th century." A $175,000 campaign is under way to permanently protect the famous broken oaths and some 120,000 other writings of Wilson, the co-founder of AA, and his wife, Lois, the co-founder of the Al-Anon movement for families of alcoholics. "In the grand scheme of things, these are priceless," said Annah Perch, executive director of the Stepping Stones Foundation, the nonprofit that manages the Wilson legacy. "The sooner this stuff goes off-site and becomes microfilmed and digitized, the sooner we will be safe from a natural disaster." The idea is not only to make duplicates of the original documents as insurance against fire or flood, but to create a digital archive and put it online. That would make the archive much more widely available than it is now. As it is today, scholars and authors must apply for access to the documents. For everyone else, getting close to the first couple of recovery is restricted to a few items that were recently made available at a new Welcome Center on the Stepping Stones grounds. The listing of their Dutch Colonial home on the National Register of Historic Places helped raise the profile of their mission in the middle part of the last decade. But the real impact of the 40 years the couple lived locally continues to play out in the lives of recovering alcoholics and their families. Wilson proclaimed alcoholism a disease three decades before the American Medical Association did. The 12-step recovery solution that Wilson and co-founder Dr. Bob Smith created reversed the historically held belief that hard drunks could not stay sober, and it became the standard treatment in U.S. hospitals and clinics. "It is the only way we have to deal with addiction, and we live in an age of addiction," said Cheever, whose memoir of her father, John Cheever, documented the writer's battle with alcohol. "Bill Wilson truly changed the way we think about ourselves." All the more reason to protect the archives, said filmmaker Kevin Hanlon. "I think it is impossible to understand Bill Wilson's life without these remarkable archives," said Hanlon, who recently finished shooting in Bedford Hills for a documentary about Wilson. "It is a story that resonates for an awful lot of people who don't suffer from alcoholism or know people who are alcoholics, although it strikes me how few people there are who don't know someone who has struggled with alcohol." About one-third of the archive collection has already been sent to the company doing the preservation work with $25,000 that has already been raised for the effort. "We had so much faith in our donor community in how they have responded to our needs in the past that we started the project without all of the money in hand," Perch said. __________________________________ Sent in by John Moore South Burlington, Vermont (contact.johnmoore at gmail.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7225. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Is this legend about NA writing AA true? From: stalban2001 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2011 6:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As a former member of the Narcotics Anonymous Board of Trustees and an NA member with 36 years of recovery, I can assure you that no such letter was ever sent to my watch or by anyone I know. While I'm no longer active at the world level, I know the people serving there as trusted servant and special service workers, and I'm confident that they have a good enough understanding of the Traditions not to have written such a preposterous letter. However, I can't speak for all our members at all times. It's possible that an over-zealous NA member whose AA experience was not positive wrote something like that out of ignorance. By the way, NA's "world headquarters," based in California, are known variously as the World Service Office (WSO) or NA World Services (NAWS). NAWS is used as a collective to include the World Service Conference (WSC). - - - - P.S. That Bulletin was written by the NA Board of Trustees in 1985-86 as part of a series of essays clarifying issues pertaining to the development of Narcotics Anonymous and its philosophy of recovery. Its provenance is quite clear and is still reprinted by NAWS for use by NA members. Its tone regarding AA is quite respectful and nowhere do I see it enjoining the AA Fellowship to "stop killing our people by telling them they can join AA." _________________________________________ Original message #7216 from "David" (Inkman3 at webtv.net) I have heard a story about a purported letter sent from NA headquarters to AA's GSO saying, in effect, Stop killing our people by telling them they can join AA. My question is: is this just an urban legend or does such a letter exist? And if it does exist, where could I find a copy of it? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7226. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is this legend about NA writing AA true? From: Angela Corelis . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2011 8:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Bob Cohen To: Angela Corelis This wasn't written to AA but as an internal information to NA members and anyone that wanted to read it. We actually use part of this in the NA opening statement that the Sunshine Group reads prior to the regular readings. Drugs alone didn't cover enough but they changed it to addiction -- that puts everyone on a level playing field, in fact one of the main reading states that: "We don't care what or how much you used, who your connections were, how much or how little you have, just what you want to do and how we can help." NA started because some well meaning AAs tried to help frustrated addicts that couldn't identify in AA, and helped them form groups, as they were dually addicted themselves. Even Bill Wilson begged addicts to start an NA of some type long before NA started, as he saw that addiction could be worse than alcoholism alone, which is written in the 12 and 12 I believe. Bob ___________________________________________ Re: Is this legend about NA writing AA true? >Hi all,This was not a letter to AA. This was simply a Bulletin from NA's Word Services prepared for their own membership (from 1985). You can view it on the NA website [OR SEE THE COPY OF THAT BULLETIN BELOW] :http://www.wsoinc.com/?ID=bulletins-bull13-r I have seen this before and for the life of me I don't see how anyone could interpret this as a message to AA telling them to "Stop killing our people by telling them they can join AA" .... To me this bulletin is stressing respect between the fellowships and simply outlining a different philosophy when it comes to the First Step. I don't see anything contentious in there. In fact, it really seems to me that the bulletin is calling out their own members to check their attitudes toward AA and stop fostering any anti AA feelings. The fellowships have so much in common and mature members in both have a mutual respect for each other and see the commonality. We're cut from the same cloth (Bill said we were "cousins" to the drug addict) and we're both striving for the same thing. Thanks,Mike Margetis Brunswick, Maryland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7227. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Is this legend about NA writing AA true? From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2011 8:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you, Chris, for publishing this excellent article. Maybe AA will come to the public realization someday that poly-addiction is far more common than addiction to any one drug alone. Also, most people have no idea about Bill Wilson's passion for scientific information. I personally have no doubt that he would eventually have realized the massive development of poly-addiction, and taken steps to educate his, and our, beloved AA community how they might reorganize themselves. Shalom - Sally Brown Rev Sally Brown, MS, MDiv Board Certified Clinical Chaplain United Church of Christ coauthor with David R Brown: A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous 1470 Sand Hill Rd, 310 www.sallyanddavidbrown.com Palo Alto, CA 94304 Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 ________________________________________ For a copy of the article, see Message no. 7223 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7223 From "Chris Budnick" (cbudnick at nc.rr.com) In this message, Chris gives a copy of a letter "from an employee, at the time, of the NA World Service Office, which was submitted to the Grapevine" in Vol. 42 No. 10 (March 1986), entitled "Another Vision for You" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7228. . . . . . . . . . . . God as we understood Him: atheists and agnostics in AA From: intuited . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/5/2011 11:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn, I'm puzzled that an atheist would resonate with the term "as we understood Him." I would have thought a male gender entity/deity would not fit an atheist's philosophy. Was he/she happy with this male gender terminology? Was his/her story published? I recently reviewed the April 2009 issue of the AAGrapevine which featured Agnostics in AA. Each story spoke of a definite spiritual experience. As I read the stories I began to think that the term agnostic was more aptly being used as a code word to mean non-Christian. The stories were full of references to a very vital spirituality, utilizing many eastern religious beliefs interconnected with meditation or energy. They were very moving stories and not what I would expect of someone who was without certainty. The Conference Committee on Literature is in the process of publishing a pamphlet "which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous." This 61st Conference is entertaining a request to reconsider this action. I am very curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these terms. Is it an easy way to talk about "other than Christian" spirituality? Amelia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7229. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: God as we understood Him: the atheist''s story From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2011 4:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA historians tell us that the words "as we understood Him" were inserted into the twelve steps to allow an atheist among the early AA group to remain a member of the group. In the preceding message, Amelia asked: was his/her story published? The atheist was Jim Burwell, and there are a lot of messages on the AAHistoryLovers site talking about his story. If you go to our Message Board at http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages and put Burwell into the little search box at the top, you can call up 108 different messages talking about him. Henry (Hank) Parkhurst is often included in a discussion of this issue, but he and Burwell held quite different points of view, at least in my reading of the documents from that era, particularly what Hank himself wrote when the book project was first being discussed. Burwell was a complete atheist, or at least was very doubtful about any kind of God existing. But Hank's position was more complicated. He regarded the proposed Big Book project as the writing, NOT of a complete description of the whole program, but only of an introductory book to entice people into the AA program. He felt that talking about God in the book would scare too many people away, so he wanted the book to only talk about the psychological aspects of the program. After alcoholics had been persuaded by that book to start coming to AA meetings, they could be gently exposed in gradual fashion to the serious spiritual content of the program and helped in developing a useful understanding of God. AMONG THE PREVIOUS MESSAGES, SEE FOR EXAMPLE: http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm The Vicious Cycle 2nd edition p. 238, 3rd edition p. 238, 4th edition p. 219 Jim Burwell, Maryland - - - - Jim was twelfth stepped into the fellowship on January 8, 1938. But he had a slip in June of that year. His last drink was June 16, 1938. - - - - Jim is usually given credit for the third tradition, that the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. He also is credited with the use of "God as we understood Him" in the Steps. (Jim, an agnostic, was militantly opposed to too much talk of God in the Big Book, but he said later that his agnostic stance had mellowed over the years.) - - - - The Unbeliever Original manuscript p. 7, 1st edition p. 194 Henry [Hank] Parkhurst NY - - - - Hank was the first man Bill Wilson was successful in sobering up after returning from his famous trip to Akron where he met Dr. Bob. Thus Hank was A.A. #2 in New York prior to resuming drinking about four years later. His original date of sobriety was either October or November 1935. - - - - Hank was a salesman, an agnostic, and a former Standard Oil of New Jersey executive, who had lost his job because of drinking. - - - - He and Jim Burwell ("The Vicious Cycle"), led the fight against too much talk of God in the 12 steps, which resulted in the compromise "God as we understood Him." - - - - No one knows exactly when Hank had started drinking again, but in the diary Lois Wilson kept there are various September 1939 entries that mention that Hank was drunk. He did get back on the program for a short time at some later date but it didn't last. Nevertheless, A.A. owes Hank a debt of gratitude for his many contributions during his all too short period of sobriety. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6515 During the writing of the Big Book, Fitz insisted that the book should express Christian doctrines and use Biblical terms and expressions. Hank and Jim B. opposed him. The compromise was "God as we understood Him." http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6588 If you listen to Jimmy Burwell's tapes (Jimmy "The Atheist") he talks about how as early as 1937 the drunks among the early Oxford Groupers were meeting in Bill's house at 182 Clinton Street, and often at Stewart's Cafeteria nearby. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5489 The story began when Bob B., a paint store owner in Richmond, got sober by visiting a business associate in Philadelphia, a man named JIM BURWELL who had gotten sober in 1938 and had started A.A. in that city. Jim's story in the Big Book is called "The Vicious Cycle" (it is on page 219 in the current 4th edition). Jim was the early New York A.A. group's first "self-proclaimed atheist," the one who insisted that the phrase "as we understood Him" had to be added to the reference to God in Steps 3 and 11. __________________________________________ Original message from Amelia (intuited at earthlink.net) Glenn, I'm puzzled that an atheist would resonate with the term "as we understood Him." I would have thought a male gender entity/deity would not fit an atheist's philosophy. Was he/she happy with this male gender terminology? Was his/her story published? I recently reviewed the April 2009 issue of the AAGrapevine which featured Agnostics in AA. Each story spoke of a definite spiritual experience. As I read the stories I began to think that the term agnostic was more aptly being used as a code word to mean non-Christian. The stories were full of references to a very vital spirituality, utilizing many eastern religious beliefs interconnected with meditation or energy. They were very moving stories and not what I would expect of someone who was without certainty. The Conference Committee on Literature is in the process of publishing a pamphlet "which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous." This 61st Conference is entertaining a request to reconsider this action. I am very curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these terms. Is it an easy way to talk about "other than Christian" spirituality? Amelia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7230. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: God as we understood Him: goddess worship From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2011 4:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a preceding message, Amelia wrote: "Glenn, I'm puzzled that an atheist would resonate with the term 'as we understood Him.' I would have thought a male gender entity/deity would not fit an atheist's philosophy. Was he/she happy with this male gender terminology?" - - - - HIM VS. HER Amelia, at the time the Big Book was written, teachers who taught English grammar would instruct their students that: (1) when you knew that a person was female, you used the pronouns she and her. (2) when you knew that a person was male, you used the pronouns he and him. (3) But he and him were the generic gender-neutral pronouns, so you also used he and him if you did not know whether the person was male or female. So in 1939, the year the Big Book was published, the phrase "God as we understood Him" could be read as referring to either a male God or a female Goddess. But the world had already begun to change. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_movement The first wave of the modern feminist movement concluded (in the United States) with the passage in 1919-20 (right after the First World War) of the Nineteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, which granted women the right to vote. The second wave of the U.S. feminist movement began after the Second World War. By the 1970's and 1980's, the feminist movement was regularly arguing that the traditional grammatical conventions were demeaning of women. You should only use he and him in situations where you knew that the person was male. If you meant what you were saying to refer to both males and females, you had to use phrases like "he or she," "him or her," and other phrases of that sort. (One thing to keep in mind though, when discussing this issue, is that the gender of the third person singular pronoun was for the most part only really a big issue in English in the 1970's and 80's. In European languages like French, German, Spanish, Italian, and so on, that still assign a grammatical gender to all nouns, grammatical gender is not felt to be the same as sexual gender. And in some of the other languages of the world, like Finnish, so I am told, there are third person singular pronouns which can refer to either a male or a female, which neatly eliminates the problem.) - - - - GODDESS WORSHIP Like the him vs. her issue, except for a few relatively isolated examples, it was not until the 1970's and 1980's that Goddess worship became much talked about in the western world. I doubt that anybody among the early AA group in 1939 would have thought of Goddess worship as a possibility. It would have been highly odd at that point, at any rate. So it was not until the 1970's and 1980's that any big problem could have been created by large enough numbers of AA members in the western world choosing to worship goddesses like Isis or Kali or the Triple Goddess (the Maid, the Mother, and the Crone). The original historical precedent that was set in 1938-1939 for interpreting the phrase "God as we understood Him" would nevertheless make it clear that using feminine symbols and metaphors to refer to your higher power would be perfectly legitimate in AA. If that is the way you understand God, then that is the way you should worship her. - - - - PERSONAL VS. IMPERSONAL SUPREME BEING As a side point, in a book I just wrote, I argue that the real issue in western religion has always been the same one which you see in eastern religions. Some kind of higher power or supreme principle or architect of the universe or ground of being necessarily exists. The question is whether this is an impersonal absolute or a highly personal god or goddess. See Glenn F. Chesnut, God and Spirituality paperback: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-k eywo\ rds=chesnut+god+and+spirituality&x=13&y=15 [9] kindle: http://www.amazon.com/God-Spirituality-Philosophical-Essays-ebook/dp/B0046ZR N82/\ ref=sr_1_cc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300217940&sr=1-1-catcorr [10] In the Christian tradition over the past two thousand years, some theologians (like St. Augustine, John Wesley, and the St. Macarius who wrote the Fifty Spiritual Homilies) had warmly personalistic conceptions of God. But there were many other famous Christian theologians who regarded the higher power as completely (or nearly completely) impersonal. St. Denis' higher power (c. 500 A.D.) was completely impersonal, and the God described by St. Gregory of Nyssa in the fourth century was almost completely impersonal, as was the God described by St. Thomas Aquinas in the thirteenth century. Paul Tillich (Reinhold Niebuhr's colleague at Union Theological Seminary in New York City) taught that God was a completely impersonal ground of being. In the AA tradition, Richmond Walker, the author of the Twenty-four Hour book, taught a God who was warmly personal, and who wanted to be friends with us for the same reason that we wanted to be friends with him -- we felt isolated and lonely all by ourselves. (A really fascinating view of God and the reason for the creation of this universe.) But do not fall into the trap of believing that it is only us "moderns" who reject the fundamentalist Protestant belief in God as an old man with a white beard sitting on a throne, and that it is only us "moderns" who believe in esoteric New Age spirituality and are fascinated by Asian religions. Emmet Fox taught (in his book on "The Sermon on the Mount") that God in and of himself is just a bunch of eternal laws and principles, and that God becomes personal only in and through us individual human beings, when we acted as agents of those higher laws of love and positive thinking. - - - - HINDUISM And Fox's other most popular book, "Power through Constructive Thinking," taught the doctrine of reincarnation, and Richmond Walker began the 24 Hour book with a quote from the Hindu tradition, to make the point that AA people could draw from all the spiritual traditions of the world. - - - - THE HEBREW BIBLE And the Hebrew Bible (what Christians call the Old Testament) actually used feminine imagery to describe God more often than it used the metaphor of God as a Father. In the New Testament, Jesus was described as the incarnation of both the male Logos principle and the female Sophia principle: that is, Jesus was explicitly said to be not only the "Word" but also the "Wisdom" of God, referring to Sophia, Lady Wisdom, who in one passage in the Old Testament was described as the Creator of the world -- see http://hindsfoot.org/spiritu.html . So it would be a mistake to try to argue that God is always portrayed as male in the Judeo-Christian tradition. _________________________________________ Original message from Amelia (intuited at earthlink.net) Glenn, I'm puzzled that an atheist would resonate with the term "as we understood Him." I would have thought a male gender entity/deity would not fit an atheist's philosophy. Was he/she happy with this male gender terminology? Was his/her story published? I recently reviewed the April 2009 issue of the AAGrapevine which featured Agnostics in AA. Each story spoke of a definite spiritual experience. As I read the stories I began to think that the term agnostic was more aptly being used as a code word to mean non-Christian. The stories were full of references to a very vital spirituality, utilizing many eastern religious beliefs interconnected with meditation or energy. They were very moving stories and not what I would expect of someone who was without certainty. The Conference Committee on Literature is in the process of publishing a pamphlet "which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous." This 61st Conference is entertaining a request to reconsider this action. I am very curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these terms. Is it an easy way to talk about "other than Christian" spirituality? Amelia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7231. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: God as we understood Him: agnostics From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2011 4:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a preceding message, Amelia wrote: "I recently reviewed the April 2009 issue of the AAGrapevine which featured Agnostics in AA. Each story spoke of a definite spiritual experience. As I read the stories I began to think that the term agnostic was more aptly being used as a code word to mean non-Christian. The stories were full of references to a very vital spirituality, utilizing many eastern religious beliefs interconnected with meditation or energy. They were very moving stories and not what I would expect of someone who was without certainty. The Conference Committee on Literature is in the process of publishing a pamphlet 'which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous.' This 61st Conference is entertaining a request to reconsider this action. I am very curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these terms. Is it an easy way to talk about 'other than Christian' spirituality?" The Greek prefix a- means no, not, un- >>The term "theist" refers to someone who believes that God (Theos) exists. >>The term "a-theist" therefore refers to someone who believes that there is no God, that God (Theos) does not exist. >>Ginosko in ancient Greek meant "I know," so an "a-gnostic" is (literally) someone caught in a state of "un-knowing." - - - - THE RISE OF WESTERN ATHEISM IN THE 1840'S In a book I just wrote, I talk on pp. 123-124 about the Rise of Modern Atheism in the 1840's. See Glenn F. Chesnut, God and Spirituality paperback: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-k eywo\ rds=chesnut+god+and+spirituality&x=13&y=15 [9] kindle: http://www.amazon.com/God-Spirituality-Philosophical-Essays-ebook/dp/B0046ZR N82/\ ref=sr_1_cc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300217940&sr=1-1-catcorr [10] TRADITIONAL THEISTS: Some people in the western world rejected these new atheistic ideas completely, and kept on trying to defend the old conceptualities of the ancient and medieval worlds: the Bible was literally true, the church authorities were infallible, people walked on water and rose from the dead, and so on. THE NEW ATHEISTS (1840 and afterwards): Other people in the western world embraced these new atheistic ideas enthusiastically. A new world of science -- where the scientists were rapidly gaining infallible truth and explaining all things -- was going to lead the human race out of the darkness of the past. There would no longer be any uncontrollable natural phenomena killing people (like earthquakes and tsunamis?), everyone in the world would be given excellent health care (through universal health care) so that no one would ever get sick and die any longer, our machines (oil drilling rigs and nuclear power plants) would never malfunction and kill people, and so on. "AGNOSTICS": But there were many people caught in the middle: they had been brought up with traditional religious beliefs and did not want to let go of them, and yet they had no real answers to all the attacks that the atheists were making on their most cherished articles of faith. And there were others who had tired of the whole debate, and insisted that they weren't going to believe anything at all, past this point, without some kind of scientific evidence to support it. - - - - THE WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE ON AGNOSTICISM See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism Thomas Henry Huxley gave a speech at a meeting of the Metaphysical Society in 1876, in which he coined to word "agnostic" (not-knowing, un-knowing, non-knowing) to describe his philosophy, which was a rejection of ALL claims of spiritual or mystical knowledge. "Huxley identified agnosticism not as a creed but rather as a method of skeptical, evidence-based inquiry." But in the many years that followed, the word "agnostic" got adapted to describe all sorts of different approaches to religion. The Wikipedia article describes some of these varieties: =========================================== *Agnostic atheism: Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not have belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know that a deity does not exist. *Agnostic theism: The view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence. *Apathetic or Pragmatic agnosticism: The view that there is no proof of either the existence or nonexistence of any deity, but since any deity that may exist appears unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the question is largely academic. *Ignosticism: The view that a coherent definition of a deity must be put forward before the question of the existence of a deity can be meaningfully discussed. If the chosen definition is not coherent, the ignostic holds the noncognitivist view that the existence of a deity is meaningless or empirically untestable. A.J. Ayer, Theodore Drange, and other philosophers see both atheism and agnosticism as incompatible with ignosticism on the grounds that atheism and agnosticism accept "a deity exists" as a meaningful proposition which can be argued for or against. An ignostic cannot even say whether he/she is a theist or a nontheist until a sufficient definition of theism is put forth. *Strong agnosticism (also called "hard," "closed," "strict," or "permanent agnosticism"): The view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of a deity or deities and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another subjective experience. A strong agnostic would say, "I cannot know whether a deity exists or not, and neither can you." *Weak agnosticism (also called "soft," "open," "empirical," or "temporal agnosticism"): The view that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable, therefore one will withhold judgment until/if any evidence is available. A weak agnostic would say, "I don't know whether any deities exist or not, but maybe one day when there is evidence we can find something out." =========================================== As far as I can tell, there are very few AA members who genuinely understand what the term "agnostic" originally meant, that is, what the word meant between 1876 and 1939. Maybe a handful, but not many. And as far as I can see, the term "agnostic" has now come to mean so many different things, that it hardly has any real meaning left at all. So Amelia, I think that you are probably correct when you say that, at New York AA headquarters, the term AGNOSTIC is "being used as a code word to mean non-Christian," that is, as a "way to talk about 'other than Christian' spirituality." But for myself, I think that using the word "agnostic" in this way is a misuse of terms, because the chapter in the Big Book called "We Agnostics" was an attempt to deal with the skeptical position which Thomas Henry Huxley put forward in 1876. If we want a pamphlet talking about Hindu, Buddhist, New Age, Native American spirituality, worship of the Triple Goddess, wicca, modern California gnostic and kabbalistic groups, and other things of that sort, that they should have titled it something different, like perhaps "Varieties of AA Spirituality." And I also think that some of the hostility toward the pamphlet (among a lot of AA members) might lessen to a degree if it were retitled in that fashion. But that's just my two cents worth. __________________________________________ Original message from Amelia (intuited at earthlink.net) Glenn, I'm puzzled that an atheist would resonate with the term "as we understood Him." I would have thought a male gender entity/deity would not fit an atheist's philosophy. Was he/she happy with this male gender terminology? Was his/her story published? I recently reviewed the April 2009 issue of the AAGrapevine which featured Agnostics in AA. Each story spoke of a definite spiritual experience. As I read the stories I began to think that the term agnostic was more aptly being used as a code word to mean non-Christian. The stories were full of references to a very vital spirituality, utilizing many eastern religious beliefs interconnected with meditation or energy. They were very moving stories and not what I would expect of someone who was without certainty. The Conference Committee on Literature is in the process of publishing a pamphlet "which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous." This 61st Conference is entertaining a request to reconsider this action. I am very curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these terms. Is it an easy way to talk about "other than Christian" spirituality? Amelia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7232. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Looking for a photo of Jim Newton From: oneserene1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/12/2011 8:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If you can get ahold of Mr. Newton's book 'Uncommon Friends' there are shots of him and Bud within it (as well as photos of Messrs Edison, Ford, Firestone Sr, Carrel and Lindbergh). There is also an account of Bud's drinking problem in the book. It is available from amazon.com. Michael R. - - - - "Robert Stonebraker" wrote: > > Could someone kindly send me a picture of the Jim Newton who helped Bud Firestone find sobriety? > > Bob S. > > Mail to: > (rstonebraker212 at comcast.net) > > Bob Stonebraker > 212 SW 18th Street > Richmond, Indiana 47374 > phone (765) 935-0130 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7233. . . . . . . . . . . . Thanks for the photos of Jim Newton From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2011 4:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear History Lovers Group, I would like to offer thanks to Michael R. for his suggestion, and to the many others who have sent pictures of Jim Newton and Bud Firestone. . . . I now have all the photos I needed for a new book I have recently finished: "A PRE-AA HISTORY BOOK, A Study of Synchronic Events Between Years 1926 and 1935 which culminated in the Birth of Alcoholics Anonymous." It is still undergoing a final proof reading, but will have a web address soon. Of course, I can send it to you via PDF upon request, but it is just over 6 MBs. Bob S., Richmond, Indiana (rstonebraker212 at comcast.net) - - - - Original message from: oneserene1 Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 Subject: Re: Looking for a photo of Jim Newton If you can get ahold of Mr. Newton's book 'Uncommon Friends' there are shots of him and Bud within it (as well as photos of Messrs Edison, Ford, Firestone Sr, Carrel and Lindbergh). There is also an account of Bud's drinking problem in the book. It is available from amazon.com. Michael R. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7234. . . . . . . . . . . . Red-Headed A.A. nurse Known as Teddy From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2011 4:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I came across in the "A.A.'s Legacy of Service" pamphlet a reference to a person I had not heard of before. Bill writes, "In New York, Knickerbocker Hospital provided a ward under the care of our first friend in medicine, Dr. William Duncan Silkworth, where he was assisted by a redheaded A.A. nurse known as Teddy." Can someone fill me in on this person? It infers Teddy was an A.A., a nurse, and working in the alcoholic ward. From Tommy H in Baton Rouge (still more or less redheaded and married to an alcoholic nurse, also in recovery) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7235. . . . . . . . . . . . Changes in the chapter To Wives From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2011 1:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Group, I was asked a question I could not fully answer and was hoping someone could help me finish my answer. It seems there were some changes in the wording in part of a paragraph in Chapter 8 "To The Wives." I am looking for anyone who might have access to all 16 printings the 1st edition Big Book. In particular I am looking for the wording in printings 2 thru 7. I have the different wording from the manuscript, 1st printing and printings 8 thru 16. So all I need is the changes in printings 2 thru 7. Here is what I have so far: Original Manuscript: "We make this recommendation with some confidence. About a year ago a certain state institution released six chronic alcoholics. It was fully expected they would all be back in a few weeks. Only one of them has returned. The others had no relapse at all.The power of God goes deep!" 1st Edition 1st printing page 127: "We make this recommendation with some confidence. About a year ago a certain state institution released four chronic alcoholics. It was fully expected they would all be back in a few weeks. Only one of them has returned. The others had no relapse at all.The power of God goes deep!" 1st Edition; 8th thru 13th printing page 127: "We make this recommendation with some confidence. For several years we have been working with alcoholics committed to institutions. During 1939 two hospitals in New Jersey released 17 alcoholics. Eleven have had no relapse whatever-none of them have returned to the asylum. The power of God goes deep!" 2nd, 3rd and 4th Editions page 114: "We make this recommendation with some confidence. For years we have been working with alcoholics committed to institutions. Since this book was first published, A.A. has released thousands of alcoholics from asylums and hospitals of every kind. The majority have never returned. The power of God goes deep!" Any help will be appreciated Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7236. . . . . . . . . . . . Emmet Fox''s secretary From: lanhamcook . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2011 3:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In wikipedia it states that: "Fox's secretary was the mother of one of the men who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous co-founder Bill W., and partly as a result of this connection early AA groups often went to hear Fox. His writing, especially "The Sermon on the Mount," became popular in AA." I was curious to know if anyone knows man was who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous? Anybody able to shed some light on this? thanks JLC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7237. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Red-Headed A.A. nurse Known as Teddy From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2011 12:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Tommy, I believe if you check AA comes of Age and Language of the Heart you will find several references to Teddy. Regards, John B IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7238. . . . . . . . . . . . Anne Ripley Smith''s date of birth From: OedipusTax . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2011 9:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I believe the correct date of Anne Ripley Smith's birth is March 3, 1881. Listed that way in Wikipedia, www.barefootworld, and www.trueknowledge.com - - - - From GFC the moderator: NO, CORRECT DATE OF BIRTH SEEMS TO BE MARCH 21, 1881 AAHistoryLovers message no. 1145 says March 21, 1881: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1145 Find A Grave gives her year of birth as 1881: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=5769885 This larger photo of the tombstone clearly shows her year of birth as 1881: http://www.barefootsworld.net/the_smiths.html Arthur S. Narrative Timeline of AA History, the top AA date list, thoroughly researched, says Mar 21, 1881: http://silkworth.net/timelines/timelines_public/timelines_public.html >> Mar 21, 1881 Anne Robinson Ripley was born in >> the Chicago suburb of Oak Park, Illinois to >> Joseph and Joyce Pierce Ripley.(Grapevine Jun 1950) (It should be noted that this issue of the Grapevine came out only a year after Anne's death, and that it also came out BEFORE Dr. Bob died, so it is probably trustworthy about the date of birth. Or at any rate, it is the one I would go with.) Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7239. . . . . . . . . . . . Pre-AA History Book From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2011 2:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA History Lovers Group, I have just finished writing a new AA history book concerning the period between 1926 and our actual beginning in 1935. The 28 pages can be downloaded from this address, it may take about a minute to open: http://www.aamuncie.org/files/Pre_AA_History_Book_2011.pdf I hope you enjoy the book. All information has been researched to the best of my ability, with much help from AA historians around the country. Should you decide to print these 28 pages, I have found it preferable to use photo paper. It is convenient - and inexpensive - to place the pages in a 24-page "Presentation Cover Book" with transparent sleeves (available at most office supply stores). The advantage being that you can add/subtract new information at will. The paradoxical thing about AA history is that something new is always popping up. Bob S. ****************************** In our history lies our hope! ****************************** IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7240. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Magazine article: critics can be our benefactors From: looking@pigsfly.com> . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2011 6:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There were two articles by Arthur H. Cain, which can be read in full in the AAHistoryLovers (they were posted back in May 2003): Arthur H. Cain, "Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or Cure?" Harper's Magazine, February 1963 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/994 Dr. Arthur H. Cain, "Alcoholics Can Be Cured--Despite A.A." Saturday Evening Post, September 19, 1964 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1012 >> They were later copied from the AAHistoryLovers >> by Agent Orange and posted on his anti-AA website, see >> http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-ahcain.html The articles reach this conclusion: Alcoholics Anonymous should not be a cult for the retardation of the "arrested" alcoholic. I do not suggest for a moment that a single A.A. quit the fellowship. On the contrary, I strongly urge sticking with it. To anyone who is having trouble with alcohol I say: try A.A. first; it's the answer for most people. But to those who insist upon serving A.A. as if it were a holy and apostolic church, I say, Beware. Observe those members who seem genuinely serene. Talk with those who have been in A.A. a long time and who really practice "live and let live." Though A.A. is an important part of their lives, it is an adjunct, not the whole. They have crossed the bridge from arrested alcoholism to true recovery. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7241. . . . . . . . . . . . Two other Harper''s magazine articles (very different) From: edgarc@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/12/2011 12:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ronnie . . . Re your note below about the Arthur H. Cain article in Harper's magazine, it would only be fair to balance the Harper's/AA relationship by citing the beautiful piece in "Elpenor" in the October 1986 issue and the "Drunk's Club" piece by "Clancy Martin" in the January 2011 issue. Edgar C Sarasota, Florida IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7242. . . . . . . . . . . . Clancy W. Martin article in Harper''s Magazine From: Dan Roe . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/12/2011 8:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Clancy W. Martin, "The drunk's club: A.A., the cult that cures," in Harper's Magazine, January 2011. Although it will cost you to read it online, the text is given in the magazine's archive at http://www.harpers.org/archive/2011/01/0083250 Dan IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7243. . . . . . . . . . . . Arthur H. Cain''s apology to Bill Wilson for Saturday Evening Post article From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2011 4:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Mel B. (melb at accesstoledo.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3984 "The Saturday Evening Post did run a nasty article in the Sept. 19, 1964, issue by Arthur Cain, the same man who had written "Alcoholics Anonymous---Cult or Cure?" for the February 1963 Harper's Magazine. Cain wrote Bill a letter of apology for the Saturday Evening Post article and blamed its nastiness on the editors. Bill, though usually very kind to critics, did not cut him much slack in replying to Cain's apology." "Jerome Ellison was a regular contributor to The Saturday Evening Post and may have offered his article to them. But he did publish one in The Nation in 1964 and the title might have been "Is Alcoholics Anonymous a Cult?" He actually called me for a piece of information while he was writing the article, but he got it wrong when it was published. The matter in question concerned AA in southern Michigan and he somehow converted it to AA in the South!" "Jerry was upset with AA leadership because he had been fired as editor of the Grapevine after a short stay there. Bill took on the duty of firing him, since Bill had recommended him for the job. Jerry was an excellent writer and editor but he had trouble getting along with people at work." ____________________________________________ Arthur H. Cain, "Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or Cure?" Harper's Magazine, February 1963 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/994 Dr. Arthur H. Cain, "Alcoholics Can Be Cured--Despite A.A." Saturday Evening Post, September 19, 1964 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1012 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7244. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Magazine article: critics can be our benefactors From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2011 8:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From James Bliss and Mike (heat_cool2004) - - - - From: James Bliss (james.bliss at comcast.net) The Harper's magazine article by Arthur H. Cain could come across as self-serving for the author. In the same manner he is addressing the various things which he 'pinpointed' in AA and Alanon. But, reading the article, I can see some truth in the statements. AA members and meetings are far from perfect, and should never claim to be. The Big Book flatly states 'our hats are off' to the man who can make an about-face on his drinking through another method. It also states that we are to take advantage (use them for what they do best) of various resources (Physicians, Psychologists, Religious people). Also, we are not Doctors (as a whole although some members are). Etc. The article just points out the bad, and indicated a bad direction which might have been being taken back then and I have witnessed in the present as well in various meetings and members. It is an interesting read though. Jim - - - - From: "Mike" (heat_cool2004 at yahoo.com) Ron, I've found lots of yahoo groups devoted to blasting away at AA. I read a lot of the posts, it helps me focus on what mental quirks might nudge people back out. Lots of people in my area simply assume that someone who goes back out does it because 'it's what alkies do", or they just quit attending meetings. I've found that relapsers usually have some reason (real or fancied). ~Mike IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7245. . . . . . . . . . . . Is alcoholism a disease? Bill W. From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2011 5:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have read, I think on our list, that Wilson considered the terms illness, disease, malady, ailment synonymous. However, the quote indicates otherwise. From msg. 5695: The answer William Griffith Wilson gave when specifically asked about alcoholism as disease after he had addressed the annual meeting of the National Catholic Clergy Conference of Alcoholism in 1961: "We have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically speaking, it is not a disease entity. For example, there is no such thing as heart disease. Instead there are many separate heart ailments, or combinations of them. It is something like that with alcoholism. Therefore we did not wish to get in wrong with the medical profession by pronouncing alcoholism a disease entity. Therefore we always called it an illness, or a malady -- a far safer term for us to use." End of quote. I like his example of heart disease. We hear our reaction to alcohol as an allergy, but no medical scientist would call it that as it doesn't meet the medical definition of an allergy. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7246. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is alcoholism a disease? Bill W. From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2011 4:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Tommy, You raise some good, provocative questions. Just to give you my own reaction, I think that perhaps the fairest way to describe the discussions about whether alcoholism was a disease or an illness or whatever, might be to say that it was an "evolving concept" during AA's early years. And in 1960 to 61, the period you are looking at in your message, there were indeed some changes going on, as you noted. Dr. E. M. Jellinek for example only began supporting the use of the word "disease" fairly late -- he did not publish "The Disease Concept of Alcoholism" (New Haven: Hillhouse Press, 1960) for example, until a year before Bill W's comment which you quote. Bill Swegan told me -- if I remember correctly -- that Jellinek did not at all like the word "disease" however back in 1949, when he studied with Jellinek at the Yale School of Alcohol Studies. The word "disease" appears only three times in the A.A. Big Book. It was used, but it clearly wasn't the word they most preferred at that point in time (1939). It is mentioned first on page 64 in discussing alcoholism, then again at the beginning of the second part of the book in the story of Bill Dotson, the Akron lawyer who was Alcoholics Anonymous Number Three. When Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob visited Dotson in the hospital, they told him he had "a disease," and when he explained his conversion to his wife, he told her he felt that God had cured him "of this terrible disease." (AAWS, 1976: 187-188, 191) THE OTHER TERMS USED IN THE BIG BOOK: However, in spite of its avoidance of the specific word "disease," alcoholism is referred to over and over again throughout the book as a "sickness," a "malady," and an "ailment," and alcoholics are characterized as persons who are "sick" or "ill." In the Personal Stories section of the third edition of the Big Book, one of the subtitles is "How Forty-Three Alcoholics Recovered From Their Malady." Sick, sick person, or sickness on pages 18, 64, 67, 90, 92, 100, 101, 106, 107, 108, 115, 139, 140, 141, 147, 149, 153, 157, and 164. Ill or illness on pages 7, 18, 20, 30, 44, 92, 107, 108, 115, 118, 122, 139, 140, and 142. The words ail or ailment are used on pages 135, 139, 140. Malady appears on pages 23, 64, 92, 138, 139, and 165. ALLERGY: Although it is true that alcoholism is not an allergy in the modern understanding of allergic reactions (it does not produce a histamine response for example), there was one extremely important insight contained in that early speculation, that is usually totally ignored by the modern AA bashers who want to argue that alcoholics should be able to go back to "controlled drinking," or who sometimes even argue that they have "proven" that it can be done even by full-fledged chronic alcoholics. Once a person is allergic to bee stings, for example -- where their throats close up so they cannot breathe and they experience other life-threatening reactions of anaphylactic shock -- this cannot be "cured" so that the person can go back to being stung by bees. The body's reaction to bee stings permanently and irremediably changes, so that each subsequent bee sting produces an even worse reaction. It is the same thing with poison ivy allergic reactions and allergic reactions to strawberries, onions, wheat, or what have you -- you cannot ever go back to touching or eating those things and become "a normal social strawberry eater" or whatever you want to call it. Although alcoholism is not an allergic reaction in that sense, anybody who has seriously looked at modern scientific studies of the physiology of alcoholism will find that in similar fashion, when the human body is exposed to enough alcohol over a long enough period of time (for genetic reasons, with many Native Americans, this happens frighteningly quickly, in just a few weeks of regular drinking), the body progressively changes the way it metabolizes alcohol -- that is, the way it physiologically responds to alcohol -- and that this change is irreversible. Until the very end of the progression, the person will find that it takes more and more alcohol to produce the same inner psychological feeling of ease and calm and euphoria. Once the progression has gone so far that it takes an alcoholic large quantities to produce that feeling, past that point, taking one or two drinks of alcohol would have little appreciable effect at all, in terms of giving the person a satisfying "buzz." What I find shameful about the AA bashers who claim that alcoholics can successfully go back to "controlled drinking" -- who accuse AA of being a "cult" suitable only for the naive and scientifically ignorant -- is that although they boastfully proclaim themselves as the defenders of "real scientific thinking," they have never even bothered to read what real science has actually shown about the physiological reactions and metabolic processes involving alcohol ingestion in the human body. In other words, AA bashers of this sort are total frauds. To put it in language they can understand, you can turn a cucumber into a pickle, but not vice versa. Likewise a psychiatrist or psychologist -- and this includes even people like Dr. Arthur H. Cain of Harper's Magazine fame -- cannot in fact take a chronic alcoholic's pickled body and turn it back into a body which has a "virgin" reaction to alcohol ingestion. So although referring to alcoholism as an "allergy" in the Big Book was at one level an unfortunate choice of words, because that is certainly not in line with modern scientific understanding of either allergic reactions or of alcoholism, it nevertheless contained an important kernel of truth: once alcoholism has developed, you cannot physiologically become "un-alcoholic" any more than you can become "un-allergic" to poison ivy (or what have you). Glenn ___________________________________________ Original message from Tommy Hickcox: I have read, I think on our list, that Wilson considered the terms illness, disease, malady, ailment synonymous. However, the quote indicates otherwise. From msg. 5695: The answer William Griffith Wilson gave when specifically asked about alcoholism as disease after he had addressed the annual meeting of the National Catholic Clergy Conference of Alcoholism in 1961: "We have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically speaking, it is not a disease entity. For example, there is no such thing as heart disease. Instead there are many separate heart ailments, or combinations of them. It is something like that with alcoholism. Therefore we did not wish to get in wrong with the medical profession by pronouncing alcoholism a disease entity. Therefore we always called it an illness, or a malady -- a far safer term for us to use." End of quote. I like his example of heart disease. We hear our reaction to alcohol as an allergy, but no medical scientist would call it that as it doesn't meet the medical definition of an allergy. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7247. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Stepping Stones archives microfilmed digitized, put on line From: Al Welch . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/14/2011 9:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Al Welch and Laurie Andrews: - - - - From "Al Welch" (welch at a-1associates.com) Wow! What treasure! - - - - From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) There is valuable archival material relating to AA in the UK at Stepping Stones. When I was visiting in 1990,en route to the Seattle convention,I read Lois's diary of her and Bill's trip to Europe in (I think) 1950 in which she recorded their time in the UK. -----Original Message----- From: John Moore (johnmoore at gmail.com) Subject: Stepping Stones archives microfilmed digitized, put on line A project is underway to microfilm the Stepping Stones archival material, digitize it, and eventually make it available to researchers on line. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7248. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anne Ripley Smith''s Birth Year From: OedipusTax . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2011 9:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Contrary to what Arthur S. and Jim Blair said, the June 1950 Grapevine article does not say March 21 but March 3: Anne Ripley Smith March 3, 1881 -- June 1, 1949 The Loving "Spiritual Rock" of Early A.A. Wife of Dr. Bob "The Mother of A.A." A Tribute to Anne Smith A.A. Grapevine, June 1950 SOMEHOW we believe Dr. Bob's beloved Anne would prefer this simple tribute beyond all others. It was written by one who knew her well. It came from the bottom of a grateful heart which sensed that extravagant language and trumpeting phrases would serve only to obscure a life that had deep meaning. It is doubtful if now, only one year after her passing, that the true significance of Anne Smith's life can be realized. Certainly it cannot yet be written, for the warmth of her love, and charm of her personality and the strength of her humility are still upon those of us who knew her. For Anne Smith was far more than a gracious lady. She was one of four people, chosen by a Higher Destiny, to perform a service to mankind. How great this contribution is, only time and an intelligence beyond man's can determine. With Dr. Bob, Lois and Bill, Anne Smith stepped into history, not as a heroine but as one willing to accept God's will and ready to do what needed to be done. Her kitchen was the battleground and, while Anne poured the black coffee, a battle was fought there which has led to your salvation and mine. It was she, perhaps, who first understood the miracle of what passed between Bill and Dr. Bob. And, in the years to follow, it was she who knew with divine certainty that what had happened in her home would happen in other homes again, again, and yet again. For Anne understood the simplicity of faith. Perhaps that's why God chose her for us. Perhaps that's why Anne never once thought of herself as a 'woman of destiny' but went quietly about her job. Perhaps that's why, when she said to a grief-torn wife, "Come in, my dear, you're with friends now -- friends who understand" that fear and loneliness vanished. Perhaps that's why Anne always sat in the rear of the meetings, so she could see the newcomers as they came, timid and doubtful. . .and make them welcome. There's a plaque on the wall of Akron's St. Thomas hospital dedicated to Anne. It's a fine memorial. But there's a finer one lying alongside the typewriter as this is being written -- letters to Dr. Bob from men and women who knew and loved her well. Each tries to put in words what is felt in many hearts. They fail -- and that's the tribute beyond price. For real love, divine love, escapes even the poet's pen. So, in the simplest way we know, and speaking for every AA everywhere, let's just say 'Thanks, Dr. Bob, for sharing her with us.' We know that she's in a Higher Group now, sitting well to the back, with an eye out for newcomers, greeting the strangers and listening for their names! End of Grapevine article ............... _________________________________________________ Original message #1145 from "planternva" (jscarpine at juno.com) dated Jul 11, 2003 Anne Ripley Smith's Birth Year The stone on her and Bob's grave says she was born in 1881. (Written in stone?) Jim S. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Jim Blair wrote: > Arthur wrote > > Can anyone confirm or correct with a citation to a written reference source? > > The June 1950 issue of the GV had an article on Anne Smith and it notes her birth date as March 21, 1881. > > Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7249. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Emmet Fox''s secretary From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2011 10:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Harold A. (Al) S-------, who wrote both the Responsibility Pledge (1965) and the Declaration of Unity (1970). He was also the author of a book on Bert D: Hard Hat, Inebriate, Scholar (Harbor House, Memphis TN, 1975). He moved from NY to FL in the 1970s and died there. > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > From: lanhamcook@yahoo.co.uk > > In wikipedia it states that: > > "Fox's secretary was the mother of one of the men who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous co-founder Bill W., and partly as a result of this connection early AA groups often went to hear Fox. His writing, especially "The Sermon on the Mount," became popular in AA." > > I was curious to know if anyone knows man was who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous? > > JLC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7250. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Red-Headed A.A. nurse Known as Teddy From: ron.fulkerson@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/19/2011 7:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Tommy, She told her story in the Saturday Evening Post magazine 10/18/1952. ronf IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7251. . . . . . . . . . . . Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? From: Bent Christensen . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2011 3:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Friends We have an interesting situation here Denmark. In shot some AA groups have applied for and recieved money at the municipality in order to pay rent by literature and so on. This was in the local newspaper and thus our GSO heard about it and went to the groups in order to guide them. GSO recommended that the groups should make an association/club which could apply for contributions and then the groups could continue as always. Some of us think this is simply a workaround or traditions and told GSO so. GSO replies that there is a speciel Danish tradition not to pay rent. Thus we can not use the guidelines regarding AA Clubs. I am not sure if the statement regarding rent means in AA or in generel. Now my questions to you good people are: 1. Is it common practice that voluntary organizations do not pay rent where you live? 2. Do your AA group pay rent? 3. Do you have any experience to share regarding this matter? Bent Christensen Valmuevej 17 6000 Kolding Tlf. +45 50 12 17 43 www.synlighjemmeside.dk IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7252. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: God as we understood Him: agnostics From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2011 10:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is a clarification to the sharing of what's in intuited (Amelia)'s post about the General Service Conference agenda and her final question. The Conference Literature Committee is planning its discussion toward recommending approval or disapproval on two agenda items: Item B: Review progress report from the trustee's Literature Committee on the development of literature which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous. Item G: Consider a request to reconsider the 2010 Conference Advisory Action that "the trustees Literature Committee develop literature which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous." On one hand, the trustees' Literature Committee is giving a progress report on the feasibility (want vs. need vs. cost) and format (length, type of publishing) of new literature that would most likely be a pamphlet. That's what the 2010 Conference instructed them to develop: the possibilities. On the other hand, item G's reconsideration request is to either recommend Conference approval or disapproval on the "non-religious" spirituality pamphlet which was approved to proceed last year. The deluge of input on item G suggests a lot of constructive ideas have been submitted for the project since last year, on both the pro and con for AAWS to undertake such a new work of literature. In the end, only the Conference Committee on Literature will make the recommendation to the Conference whether to stop or proceed. If the proposed pamphlet proceeds, the 2011 two newly Appointed Committee Members on the Literature Committee will certainly be doing a lot of reading, reviewing submitted work. The AA Grapevine, Inc. has previously published four soft cover books on spirituality without the heavy input of religious faith: two versions of "Came To Believe, " another on "Spirituality" and another called "AA Around the World." The question is, should AAWS, Inc. publish one, too? Give it time, and the AA Grapevine will publish another one on AA spirituality. In my home turf, the current issue of the Chicago Area's "Here's How" has six articles on spirituality and only one of the articles mentions God. And in my group and other meetings, I can understand many who are continually developing their understanding of God, those holding an unshakable belief in the God of the Bible, those who refuse to consider any belief because of past experience, and those who have never been effectively exposed to God-consciousness. Call it the whole gamut of faiths: those who say they know and those still finding out. Anyone can get sober with or without a religious faith. Intuited wrote: I am very curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these terms. Is it an easy way to talk about 'other than Christian' spirituality?" My answer is "yes." It could be one of AA's greatest strengths about "God as we understood Him" to appreciate any member's generic, poorly defined 'Creator' to be called "God" because even that slight belief keeps that member's recovery in focus. Bill W. wrestled with the "God" concept when he first got sober, too. I'm not uneasy when I speak of God with the name "God" when I personally have my own belief and don't feel the need to explain it. One-on-one, it's all right for me to explain when asked, but otherwise in general group sharing it's always come across as a distraction. I've been to many Pentecostal services, seminars, and plenty of AA Open Speaker meetings, and while I love them both their intent and the destinations are very different! Still sober, Rick, Illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7253. . . . . . . . . . . . Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate From: kimrowe24 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2011 7:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I did a careful statistical study of my home group, employing the same criteria used in the Big Book and in early AA practice, and verified the old 50% / 25% success rate. AA still works that way today. I decided to do work out the statistics on my home group's success rate, after I recently read an article bashing AA's printed recovery rate, stating that AA was lucky to achieve 2% on a good day, and even less during the holiday season. After reading the article, I realized that there were three important things that had to be asked: (1) how did they define success, (2) who made up their test group, and (3) what was the criteria for being in the test group. This is what the Big Book states: "Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried, 50% got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed on with A.A. showed improvement." At the time the book was written, 4 years 4 months was the maximum sobriety of AA's test group, but many had only been sober for a few months. The Big Book defined success as continuously sober for anywhere from a few months to over four years. AA's test group was made up of all volunteers. See AA Number Three's story, pg 186, where Bill and Bob ask Bill D the four questions: "Do you want to quit drinking?" "Can you quit of your own accord?" "Do you believe in a Higher Power?" and "Are you willing to go to this Higher Power and ask for help, calmly and without any reservations?" It was harder to get into AA back then than it is now, no one could just walk in and sit in their meetings. There were no court referrals, no treatment center tourist, and no marriage saving members in this group. AA's test group was further restricted to those who "came to A.A. and really tried." What did Bill W mean when he said "really tried"? The answer is in chapter 5, How It Works. It defines "really tried" as thoroughly following the path, completely giving themselves to this simple program, being rigorously honest, going to any lengths, taking certain steps, being fearless and thorough from the very start, letting go of our old ideas absolutely, finding a Higher Power, and taking the suggestions. I went to my home group. I explained to them that I wanted to conduct an informal survey. They agreed. Then I explained that I only wanted to conduct the survey with those who volunteered to come to AA for help. Next I explained that the survey would be limited to those who really tried (see above). The results of my survey is that 50% of that group got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed on with A.A. showed improvement. Now what about all those other people, the non-volunteers, or the half measure group? Well the Big Book talks about them too, "Other thousands came to a few A.A. meetings and at first decided they didn't want the program. But great numbers of these, about two out of three, began to return as time passed." Years later, and our home group has the exact same success rate as our founders if we apply the same test criteria as our founders. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7254. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Stepping Stones archives microfilmed digitized, put on line From: wgwalker3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2011 7:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Group! After the initial mention of this project earlier in the week, I emailed Stepping Stones and asked how to "earmark" contributions toward this project. I was advised that ALL contributions submitted via the website for Stepping Stones will go toward this project. They indicated they are very grateful that any of us might announce this project at our meetings, groups, district and area meetings. Thanks to all of you for your participation here! Yours in Fellowship, Bill Walker IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7255. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is alcoholism a disease? Metaphorically or biochemically? From: Glen Morehead . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/19/2011 12:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn, I would appreciate some clarification, particularly literature references supporting your [condensed] statement below: Although alcoholism is not an allergic reaction in that sense....when the human body is exposed to enough alcohol over a long enough period of time....the body progressively changes the way it metabolizes alcohol -- that is, the way it physiologically responds to alcohol -- and that this change is irreversible. I am not clear whether you are speaking metaphorically and psychologically, or biochemically. Big difference. Please clarify and aim me to a further understanding of exactly what you DO mean to say, and what the literature says. There is no dispute on my part that there is an irreversible change, and that we do in fact "cross a line," only the info you are citing to support this. Best rgds, Glen M 5-11-03 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7256. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is alcoholism a disease? Metaphorically or biochemically? From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/23/2011 5:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In response to the message from Glen Morehead (glenm7 at yahoo.com) ???? I said in my message that I was talking about the way the body "metabolizes alcohol" and "the way it physiologically responds to alcohol." That certainly doesn't mean "metaphorically" or "psychologically," in anybody's language. I did my B.S. degree and half of a Ph.D. (at Iowa State University) in chemistry, and my first published journal article was one in Radiation Chemistry investigating certain aspects of what happens to the aldehyde linkage in proteins when the human body suffers an overdose of radiation. So I do know what acetaldehyde and acetic acid and all these things are. (To sum up the findings of the research group to which I belonged, the radiation knocks off free radicals -- fragments of the protein chain, plus free radicals from other molecules present in the cells, such as water, sodium chloride, potassium chloride, and so on -- which then reattach to the wrong parts of the protein chain, or to one another, or to other chemicals present, to form poisonous or non-functional chemical molecules, including such things as chloroform and hydrochloric acid. One proposed treatment for people who have been overexposed to radiation was therefore to give them substances that would preferentially absorb those free radicals.) So if you prefer the word "biochemically," I understand the difference between a literary metaphor and a chemical reaction, and we'll use the word biochemical instead. The volume of literature on this is so voluminous, I cannot even begin to start listing all the journal articles you would have to read, but if you start with the following references, you can track them down for yourself. See for example, >> Alcohol also is metabolized in the liver by the enzyme cytochrome P450IIE1 (CYP2E1), which may be increased after chronic drinking. Lieber, C.S. Metabolic consequences of ethanol. The Endocrinologist 4(2):127-139, 1994. >> Long-term alcohol abuse produces physiological changes in the brain such as tolerance and physical dependence. Such brain chemistry changes maintain the alcoholic's compulsive inability to stop drinking and result in alcohol withdrawal syndrome upon discontinuation of alcohol consumption. Hoffman, PL.; Tabakoff, B. (Jul 1996). "Alcohol dependence: a commentary on mechanisms." Alcohol 31 (4): 333-40. For an abstract of this article (published back in 1996, a long time ago) see: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8879279 The biochemistry is backed up by other types of studies: >> For example, does "moderation management" work? Almost no alcoholic who tries this can continue to drink moderately for more than ten years without either (a) relapsing back into uncontrolled drinking or (c) stopping all drinking absolutely. See the study by George Vaillant at Harvard Medical School: >> "A long-term (60 year) follow-up of two groups of alcoholic men concluded that 'return to controlled drinking rarely persisted for much more than a decade without relapse or evolution into abstinence.' Vaillant also noted that 'return-to-controlled drinking, as reported in short-term studies, is often a mirage.'" Vaillant, GE (2003). "A 60-year follow-up of alcoholic men". Addiction (Abingdon, England) 98 (8): 1043-51. ____________________________________________ AT SLIGHTLY GREATER LENGTH, SEE: Alcohol Metabolism http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/alerts/l/blnaa35.htm An informational bulletin from the NIAAA (National Institute of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism) (This government agency, which is part of the U.S. government's National Institutes of Health, was originally put into its present form as part of the process of passing the Hughes Act. Nancy Olson, the founder of the AAHistoryLovers, was the principal senatorial aide in charge of the passage and implementation of the Hughes Act.) Metabolism is the body's process of converting ingested substances to other compounds. Metabolism results in some substances becoming more, and some less, toxic than those originally ingested. Metabolism involves a number of processes, one of which is referred to as oxidation. Through oxidation, alcohol is detoxified and removed from the blood, preventing the alcohol from accumulating and destroying cells and organs. A minute amount of alcohol escapes metabolism and is excreted unchanged in the breath and in urine. Until all the alcohol consumed has been metabolized, it is distributed throughout the body, affecting the brain and other tissues. When alcohol is consumed, it passes from the stomach and intestines into the blood, a process referred to as absorption. Alcohol is then metabolized by enzymes, which are body chemicals that break down other chemicals. In the liver, an enzyme called alcohol dehydrogenase (ADH) mediates the conversion of alcohol to acetaldehyde. Acetaldehyde is rapidly converted to acetate by other enzymes and is eventually metabolized to carbon dioxide and water. Alcohol also is metabolized in the liver by the enzyme cytochrome P450IIE1 (CYP2E1), which may be increased after chronic drinking.* Most of the alcohol consumed is metabolized in the liver, but the small quantity that remains unmetabolized permits alcohol concentration to be measured in breath and urine. *Lieber, C.S. Metabolic consequences of ethanol. The Endocrinologist 4(2):127-139, 1994. Alcohol Metabolism--A Commentary by NIAAA Director Enoch Gordis, M.D. With respect to its broader scientific application, metabolism, which has long been studied, is emerging with new implications for the study of alcoholism and its medical consequences. For instance, how is metabolism related to the resistance of some individuals to alcoholism? We know that some inherited abnormalities in metabolism (e.g., flushing reaction among some persons of Asian descent) promote resistance to alcoholism. Recent data from two large-scale NIAAA-supported genetics studies suggest that alcohol dehydrogenase genes may be associated with differential resistance and vulnerability to alcohol. These findings are important to the study of why some people develop alcoholism and others do not. Studies of metabolism also can identify alternate paths of alcohol metabolism, which may help explain how alcohol speeds up the elimination of some substances (e.g., barbiturates) and increases the toxicity of others (e.g., acetaminophen). This information will help health care providers in advising patients on alcohol-drug interactions that may decrease the effectiveness of some therapeutic medications or render others harmful. FOR MORE DETAILS SEE this NIAAA publication: http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa72/aa72.htm - - - - Alcoholism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholism Long-term alcohol abuse produces physiological changes in the brain such as tolerance and physical dependence. Such brain chemistry changes maintain the alcoholic's compulsive inability to stop drinking and result in alcohol withdrawal syndrome upon discontinuation of alcohol consumption.** Alcohol's primary effect is the increase in stimulation of the GABAA receptor, promoting central nervous system depression. With repeated heavy consumption of alcohol, these receptors are desensitized and reduced in number, resulting in tolerance and physical dependence. When alcohol consumption is stopped too abruptly, the person's nervous system suffers from uncontrolled synapse firing. Genetic differences exist between different racial groups which affect the risk of developing alcohol dependence. For example, there are differences between African, East Asian and Indo-racial groups in how they metabolize alcohol. These genetic factors are believed to, in part, explain the differing rates of alcohol dependence among racial groups. **Hoffman, PL.; Tabakoff, B. (Jul 1996). "Alcohol dependence: a commentary on mechanisms.". Alcohol Alcohol 31 (4): 333-40. For an abstract of this article (published back in 1996, a long time ago) see: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8879279 1996 Jul;31(4):333-40. Alcohol dependence: a commentary on mechanisms. Hoffman PL, Tabakoff B. Department of Pharmacology, University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, Denver 80262, USA. Abstract: The alcohol dependence syndrome includes the presence of alcohol tolerance, physical dependence and an inability to control one's alcohol intake. Studies are reviewed that implicate the mesolimbic dopaminergic systems, and the gamma-aminobutyric acid-A (GABAA) and N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptors as mediators of various aspects of the alcohol dependence syndrome. It is suggested that alcohol-induced changes in the GABAA receptor may play a role in certain aspects of tolerance to alcohol and in altered abilities of an individual to terminate alcohol intake. Chronic alcohol-induced increases in the activity of NMDA receptors may contribute to the withdrawal signs that are the defining feature of physical dependence on alcohol. It is hypothesized that decreased mesolimbic dopaminergic function, which occurs during alcohol withdrawal, may be involved in the compulsion to initiate and maintain alcohol drinking, another aspect of the alcohol dependence syndrome. Furthermore, evidence is presented that this decreased dopaminergic function could occur secondarily to the increase in NMDA receptor function, such that the alcohol-induced increase in NMDA receptor function could underlie both the overt withdrawal signs and the compulsion to drink alcohol in the alcohol-dependent individual. Does "moderation management" work? Almost no alcoholic who tries this can continue to drink moderately for more than ten years without either (a) relapsing back into uncontrolled drinking or (c) stopping all drinking absolutely. See the study by George Vaillant at Harvard Medical School: "A long-term (60 year) follow-up of two groups of alcoholic men concluded that 'return to controlled drinking rarely persisted for much more than a decade without relapse or evolution into abstinence.' Vaillant also noted that 'return-to-controlled drinking, as reported in short-term studies, is often a mirage.'"*** ***Vaillant, GE (2003). "A 60-year follow-up of alcoholic men". Addiction (Abingdon, England) 98 (8): 1043-51. - - - - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_metabolism Acetyl coenzyme A or acetyl-CoA is an important molecule in metabolism, used in many biochemical reactions. Its main function is to convey the carbon atoms within the acetyl group to the citric acid cycle to be oxidized for energy production. The reaction from ethanol to carbon dioxide and water is a complex one that proceeds in three steps. Complete Reaction: C2H6O(Ethanol)?C2H4O(Acetaldehyde)?C2H4O2(acetic Acid) ?Acetyl-CoA?3H2O+2CO2. Ethanol is oxidized to acetaldehyde via the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase IB (class I), beta polypeptide (ADH1B). The gene coding for this enzyme is 1.1.1.1 on chromosome 4, locus 4q21-q23. Acetaldehyde is a highly unstable compound and quickly forms free radical structures which are highly toxic if not quenched by antioxidants such as ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) and Vitamin B1 (thiamine). These free radicals can result in damage to embryonic neural crest cells and can lead to severe birth defects. Prolonged exposure of the kidney and liver to these compounds in chronic alcoholics can lead to severe damage. The literature also suggests that these toxins may have a hand in causing some of the ill effects associated with hang-overs. Acetaldehyde to acetic acid: Aldehyde dehydrogenase is the second enzyme of the major oxidative pathway of alcohol metabolism. Two major liver isoforms of this enzyme, cytosolic and mitochondrial, can be distinguished by their electrophoretic mobilities, kinetic properties, and subcellular localizations. Most Caucasians have two major isozymes, while approximately 50% of Asians have only the cytosolic isozyme, missing the mitochondrial isozyme. A remarkably higher frequency of acute alcohol intoxication among Asians than among Caucasians could be related to the absence of the mitochondrial isozyme. ___________________________________ Original message from Glen Morehead (glenm7 at yahoo.com) Glenn, I would appreciate some clarification, particularly literature references supporting your [condensed] statement below: Although alcoholism is not an allergic reaction in that sense....when the human body is exposed to enough alcohol over a long enough period of time....the body progressively changes the way it metabolizes alcohol -- that is, the way it physiologically responds to alcohol -- and that this change is irreversible. I am not clear whether you are speaking metaphorically and psychologically, or biochemically. Big difference. Please clarify and aim me to a further understanding of exactly what you DO mean to say, and what the literature says. There is no dispute on my part that there is an irreversible change, and that we do in fact "cross a line," only the info you are citing to support this. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7257. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: alcoholism as disease, biochemistry, diabetes, hypothyroidism From: MarionORedstone@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/19/2011 12:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Glenn and all, DR. BOB'S OPINION: I am sure Ernie Kurtz would recall his notation: From E. Kurtz, PhD, Monograph Alcoholics Anonymous and the Disease Concept of Alcoholism (2000) In 1938, while preparing the manuscript of the A.A. Big Book, Bill Wilson asked Dr. Bob Smith (a proctologist) about the accuracy of referring to alcoholism as a disease or one of its synonyms. Bob's reply, scribbled in a large hand on a small sheet of his letterhead, read: "Have to use disease -- sick -- only way to get across hopelessness," the final word doubly underlined and written in even larger letters (Smith [Akron] to Wilson) So the physician in the founding of A.A. suggested the disease concept. AA PAMPHLET 44 QUESTIONS: More recently the A.A. pamphlet 44 Questions states in answer to the question what is alcoholism? "There are many different ideas about what alcoholism really is. The explanation that seems to make sense to most A.A. members is that alcoholism is an illness, a progressive illness,which can never be cured but which, like some other illnesses, can be arrested. Going one step further, many A.A.s feel that the illness represents the combination of a physical sensitivity to alcohol and a mental obsession with drinking, which, regardless of consequences, cannot be broken by will power alone [italics in the original]." THE WORD "RELAPSE" NOT USED: It is useful for me to remember that despite the disease concept being actively under discussion during the formative times of A.A., the term "relapse" was not used. When the first two chairmen of the Alcohol Foundation were unseated because of inebriation, they were said to have "returned to drinking." This is the term I prefer because it expresses the idea that our steady state is to be unsteady. ACETALDEHYDE AND THE ADDICTIVE PAIN KILLER THIQ: It is well established from modern studies that abnormal physiological responses in alcoholics create elevated levels of acetaldehyde in their blood stream and the production of the addictive pain killer THIQ (tetrahydroisoquinoline) in their brain cells. Thus the illness is expressed at a cellular level, so no amount of will power can affect that. DIABETES AND HYPOTHYROIDISM AS PARALLELS: To that extent, it is much like other cellular level maladies, like diabetes mellitus and hypothyroidism. The good news of course is that a spiritual awakening can and does allow the owner of the alcoholic's abnormal physiology to live comfortably in their skin without drinking alcohol. God is near, Marion IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7258. . . . . . . . . . . . Text of the red-headed nurse in the alcoholic ward From: George . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/19/2011 2:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here is her story: http://silkworth.net/magazine_newspaper/saturday_evening_post_oct_18_1952.ht ml IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7259. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate From: Jeff Bruce . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/23/2011 4:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII You did something I have been thinking about for quite a while. Good for you! "Other thousands came to a few A.A. meetings and at first decided they didn't want the program. But great numbers of these, about two out of three, began to return as time passed." What page is that on? Thanks. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7260. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Changes in the chapter To Wives From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/19/2011 6:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Charles Knapp, gadgetsdad, and Old Bill (schaberg) - - - - From: Charles Knapp (cpknapp at yahoo.com) Hey Group, With help from Doug B. and Shakey Mike I was able to answer the question about the changes in the Chapter To The Wives. From our research we found the following: Original Manuscript: "We make this recommendation with some confidence. About a year ago a certain state institution released six chronic alcoholics. It was fully expected they would all be back in a few weeks. Only one of them has returned. The others had no relapse at all.The power of God goes deep!" 1st Edition 1st printing page 127: "We make this recommendation with some confidence. About a year ago a certain state institution released four chronic alcoholics. It was fully expected they would all be back in a few weeks. Only one of them has returned. The others had no relapse at all.The power of God goes deep!" 1st Edition; 2nd thru 16th printing page 127: "We make this recommendation with some confidence. For several years we have been working with alcoholics committed to institutions. During 1939 two hospitals in New Jersey released 17 alcoholics. Eleven have had no relapse whatever-none of them have returned to the asylum. The power of God goes deep!" 2nd , 3rd and 4th Editions page 114: "We make this recommendation with some confidence. For years we have been working with alcoholics committed to institutions. Since this book was first published, A.A. has released thousands of alcoholics from asylums and hospitals of every kind. The majority have never returned. The power of God goes deep!" =========================================== SUMMARY: >> The Manuscript per April 1939 had six chronic alcoholics released >> The 1st Edition 1st Printing April 1939 had four chronic alcoholics released >> The 1st Edition 2nd through the 16th printings 1941 -1954 had some additional wording and 17 alcoholics released (note they are no longer "chronic") >> Starting with the Second Edition in 1955 we have the wording we have today. =========================================== Thanks for the help! Charles from Wisconsin - - - - From: gadgetsdad (gadgetsdad at yahoo.com) The second through 16th printings all use the figure 17. I happened to read this paragraph at a meeting a few years ago and realized the First edition could not have used thousands. So I went through all 16 printings. Brad I. Area 25 Northern Minnesota Archivist - - - - From: schaberg@aol.com (schaberg at aol.com) The second through the seventh printings all read exactly like the eighth printing that you have quoted: 1st Edition: 2nd thru 7th printing, page 127: "We make this recommendation with some confidence. For several years we have been working with alcoholics committed to institutions. During 1939 two hospitals in New Jersey released 17 alcoholics. Eleven have had no relapse whatever -- none of them have returned to the asylum. The power of God goes deep!" Old Bill ________________________________ Original message from: Charles Knapp Sent: Fri, March 18, 2011 Subject: Changes in the chapter To Wives Hello Group, I was asked a question I could not fully answer and was hoping someone could help me finish my answer. It seems there were some changes in the wording in part of a paragraph in Chapter 8 "To The Wives." I am looking for anyone who might have access to all 16 printings the 1st edition Big Book. In particular I am looking for the wording in printings 2 thru 7. I have the different wording from the manuscript, 1st printing and printings 8 thru 16. So all I need is the changes in printings 2 thru 7. Here is what I have so far: Original Manuscript: "We make this recommendation with some confidence. About a year ago a certain state institution released six chronic alcoholics. It was fully expected they would all be back in a few weeks. Only one of them has returned. The others had no relapse at all.The power of God goes deep!" 1st Edition 1st printing page 127: "We make this recommendation with some confidence. About a year ago a certain state institution released four chronic alcoholics. It was fully expected they would all be back in a few weeks. Only one of them has returned. The others had no relapse at all.The power of God goes deep!" 1st Edition; 8th thru 13th printing page 127: "We make this recommendation with some confidence. For several years we have been working with alcoholics committed to institutions. During 1939 two hospitals in New Jersey released 17 alcoholics. Eleven have had no relapse whatever-none of them have returned to the asylum. The power of God goes deep!" 2nd, 3rd and 4th Editions page 114: "We make this recommendation with some confidence. For years we have been working with alcoholics committed to institutions. Since this book was first published, A.A. has released thousands of alcoholics from asylums and hospitals of every kind. The majority have never returned. The power of God goes deep!" Any help will be appreciated Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7261. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/23/2011 2:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Laurie A., John M., Bryan Reid, David B., Beverly F., and Gerard M. - - - - From: Laurie Andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) Taking money from an outside municipal body would seem to contradict Tradition Seven. I've belonged to AA groups who met in premises owned by landlords who would not accept rent from voluntary clubs etc as part of their service to the community. The AA groups checked the going rate for rooms in the area and made equivalent donations to those organisations from time to time (Christmas funds, gifts of TVs, furniture etc etc). - - - - From: John Moore (contact.johnmoore at gmail.com) Hi Bent, An interesting set of questions and I am sure many of us will have experience to share. If there is a tradition in Denmark that AA groups do not pay rent, it would be the first time I have ever heard of the concept. In the 39 years that I have been attending AA here in the USA, it has always been stressed that we are not a charity. We are a voluntary organization, yes... but we pay our own way and accept no outside money. AA will not accept money or gifts from outside the fellowship, whether from a church, the government, a charity, a benevolent giver, or any other place. We pay our own way... we are self supporting and this is a point of great pride. We are not seeking a handout from anyone. We are responsible for ourselves. Our GSO in New York routinely refuses and sends back money, sometimes even large amounts, that comes to AA from a variety of sources outside our fellowship, and limits how much any one person can give. Arguments and disputes over money and property can be terribly divisive and AA has chosen a wise path, that of being broke, beyond our prudent operating reserves. It gets difficult at times because virtually every group must pay rent. The price of rent has gone up and we sometimes are hard pressed to keep meetings open, especially with newer groups. Churches who rent space to us are a wonderful asset and we cherish the fact that we can rent from them. Other landlords are good to us too, but we make sure we pay them. Starting a clubhouse for meeting space is not a good approach. Once open, a clubhouse must have money to cover expenses, and the AA groups meeting there will need to pay rent in order for the club to survive. Accepting government funds to make it possible for AA groups to meet there and not pay rent sounds like a violation of the spirit of our 12 traditions. It would amount to an indirect subsidy from the government to AA. All of this should be a matter for a group conscience to decide. Our AA Guidelines on clubhouses is pretty helpful, and it stresses that any club must be separately incorporated and managed by those who have an interest in it. AA cannot be associated with the club. The AA groups meeting there are merely tenants, and the clubhouse is the landlord. The tenants are free at any time to move, go away, as they see fit. Here is the AA guideline about clubhouses: http://aa.org/lang/en/en_pdfs/mg-03_clubs.pdf A typical AA group here in USA will pass the basket during the meeting, collecting usually a dollar, sometimes two, from the average person. The group secretary or treasurer keeps track of the money and accounts to the group as to how it was used. My home group pays rent to the church, buys AA literature, buys coffee and refreshments, medallions, and other supplies. The excess is accumulated until we have a "prudent reserve" which in my group is the amount needed for three months' operating expenses. The excess funds above that, we give away. We send our excess money to our District, our Area and our GSO organizations as contributions, usually twice each year. There is a good pamphlet on the AA web site http://aa.org/pdf/products/f-3_selfsupport.pdf about our being self supporting. I hope this will be useful to you Bent. All that I have written is my own personal experience, and I do not speak on behalf of AA. I am willing to stand corrected if anyone finds error in what I have said. I wanted to relate to you my own personal experience on these interesting questions. God bless, John John M Burlington, Vermont US D.O.S. Dec 7, 1971 - - - - From: Bryan Reid (humblephoenix at gmail.com) Hi all I'm in Southeastern Arizona (USA) up in the high desert. In response to your questions, Bent: 1. Here (and every Group I attended in Pennsylvania and Connecticut before moving out here) every A.A. Group I know of pays rent. The reasoning behind this is that the 7th Tradition states: "Every A.A. group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions," and that this includes declining free rent of a meeting place. I'm sure there are other "voluntary" or non-profit organisations that do not pay rent but they are not A.A. 2. Yes, my home Group and every other Group in our District pays rent for their meeting place or room. [I know this because I am the District Secretary.] 3. My home Group (Highway 92 Group in Sierra Vista, Arizona) rents space from a non-profit organisation called the Serenity Club, which was specifically organised and built for the purpose of providing a meeting place for A.A. Groups. We currently have three Groups in total meeting there and all pay rent. The Groups buy their own literature, anniversary medallions and other A.A. supplies themselves. The Club provides the meeting place and coffee. I haven't seen the letter you got from GSO, but out here all Groups are supposed to be totally self-supporting through the voluntary contributions of its members and not accept outside contributions of any kind. When we have non-alcoholics attend our open meetings we do not allow them to contribute when the basket is passed. Best regards from Arizona! Bryan - - - - From: David Brown (copperas44 at yahoo.com) Tradition says we have to be self supporting and that we should not accept donations from any external source. Read the history of AA and understand that Rockefeller realized that money would be detrimental to the future of our organization. When in doubt check out the traditions ans follow them. David - - - - From: bevflk@aol.com (bevflk at aol.com) My name is Beverly Foulke and I am AA member of the home group ""Get A Life" and we pay $25 a meeting which is collected from our "pass the basket" at the middle of our meeting. I don't know if that helps or not. Beverly - - - - From: Gerard T McMahon (skyfive at bellsouth.net) Our group pays rent each month and since most of our groups in USA use churches that seems to be the common practice. Gerard McMahon _______________________________________ Original message from: bent_christensen5@yahoo.com Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 Subject: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? Dear Friends We have an interesting situation here Denmark. In shot some AA groups have applied for and recieved money at the municipality in order to pay rent by literature and so on. This was in the local newspaper and thus our GSO heard about it and went to the groups in order to guide them. GSO recommended that the groups should make an association/club which could apply for contributions and then the groups could continue as always. Some of us think this is simply a workaround or traditions and told GSO so. GSO replies that there is a speciel Danish tradition not to pay rent. Thus we can not use the guidelines regarding AA Clubs. I am not sure if the statement regarding rent means in AA or in generel. Now my questions to you good people are: 1. Is it common practice that voluntary organizations do not pay rent where you live? 2. Do your AA group pay rent? 3. Do you have any experience to share regarding this matter? Bent Christensen Valmuevej 17 6000 Kolding Tlf. +45 50 12 17 43 www.synlighjemmeside.dk IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7262. . . . . . . . . . . . EURYPAA Announcements From: Stockholm Fellowship . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/21/2011 11:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hundreds of people from countries all across Europe AND Australia, Asia, Africa, the United States and Canada will come together in DUBLIN, Ireland for the 2nd Annual All-Europe Young People in A.A. ("EURYPAA") Conference! The EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN planning committee has been working hard since the close of the first EURYPAA in Stockholm last summer. It is a project of service and fellowship and the committee could not do it without you being so supportive. Please continue helping outreach worldwide. Download the new EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN flyer at their website: http://www.eurypaa2011.com/ and pass it on at your meetings and to your email or online friends. Feel the Luck 'o the Irish WIN A TRIP TO EURYPAA!!! Pre-registration is available online! Register TODAY for your chance to win a trip to EURYPAA! Everyone who is pre-registered by 31 March 2011 will be entered to win a trip to EURYPAA! Prize includes round-trip air travel (purchased with miles) and shared accommodations. The winner will be drawn on or after 1 April and notified by email. See details below. CITYWEST HOTEL: HOME OF EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN Citywest Hotel is the host hotel for everything at EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN. Visit: http://www.eurypaa2011.com/ and click "Accommodation" to be connected to online reservations at the special EURYPAA discounted room rate. SHARE YOUR RECOVERY Programming for EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN is underway. If you would like to be considered for speaking on a topic panel or workshop please email: (info at eurypaa2011.com) Please understand that EURYPAA does not pay any travel for any speakers or participants. We do very much appreciate you carrying the message to the conference in Dublin. CALLING ALL PERFORMERS If you, your band, or someone you know, would like to be considered for the line-up in this year's EURYPAA live concert, please email: (info at eurypaa2011.com) and give us a link to your music or send a song in the mail. It's all in service, fun and fellowship for the EURYPAA conference so there will be no compensation. However, a table will be provided to get information out about the acts performing. PROGRAM & SCHEDULE Full program and schedule details will be posted online shortly before the conference and available to attendees upon arrival. (See below for Al-Anon/Alateen announcements.) Main Speaker Meetings FRIDAY: Open Meeting (with Al-Anon participation) and Around-the-World Roll Call SATURDAY: Main Meeting (with Al-Anon participation) and Selection of the Host City for EURYPAA 2012! SUNDAY: Closing Meeting and Sobriety Countdown Topic Meetings & Panel Presentations/Workshops Topic Meetings begin with speakers sharing on the topic followed by open sharing. While Topic Meetings are open for anyone to attend, participation is limited to those who have a desire to stop drinking. Panel Presentations begin with speakers sharing on the topic followed by questions & answers or comments. Workshops begin with speakers sharing on the topic followed by an open conversation, moderated by the Workshop Leader. Participation during panel presentations and/or workshops is open to all. A list of topics for meetings and workshops is being put together by the EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN programming team. If you would like to suggest a topic email: info@eurypaa2011.com Event Activities Live Music ~ Stand-up ~ Disco ~ Yoga ~ Golf Tournament ~ Football Match ~ Horse Riding ~ Water Sports ~ Ireland Tours ~ and more! International Meetings All meetings during EURYPAA are in English but we are proud to have made space available for meetings held in other languages as well: Svenska (Swedish), Francais (French), Polskie (Polish), Espanol (Spanish), Norske (Norwegian), ð уÑÑðºð¸ð¹ (Russian), Suomi (Finnish), Ãslenska (Icelandic), Danske (Danish), Deutsch (German), Lietuvos (Lithuanian) and more. If your group would like to host a meeting at EURYPAA in your native language email: (info at eurypaa2011.com) Al-Anon & Alateen Participation In addition to participation at each of the main speaker meetings, Al-Anon/Alateen will have several meetings during EURYPAA. We will also have a "Double-Winners" meeting for those in AA who also attend Al-Anon and those in Al-Anon who have come to believe they also need to attend AA. For more information on the Al-Anon/Alateen program or to be of service to Al-Anon/Alateen during EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN email: info@eurypaa2011.com WIN A TRIP TO EURYPAA DETAILS Every individual who is pre-registered for EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN by midnight 31 March 2011 will be entered in a drawing to win a trip to EURYPAA. The drawing will be held by the EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN planning committee on or after 1 April 2011. Winner will be notified by email. The prize consists of air travel to Dublin and shared accommodation at EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN as follows: (Air Travel) Round-trip economy class airfare purchased on behalf of the winner using up to 60,000 American Airlines miles. All limitations by American Airlines, including black-out dates, applies. In the event that suitable dates for the winner are not available, the winner will have the option to use the miles at another time, provided the cost of travel does not exceed 60,000 miles, to travel for EURYPAA 2012. (Accommodation) Winner understands they will be entitled to shared accommodation from 12-14 August 2011 at Citywest Hotel, host hotel for EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN. No alternative accommodation will be offered should the winner not be able to use the shared accommodation on the specific dates and winner will forfeit this portion of the prize. Shared accommodation means the winner will share the room with another person or persons. There is no cash value to this prize. All aspects of this prize have been donated by members of AA in support of the EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN conference. We thank them dearly and wish everyone the Luck 'o the Irish! The 2nd annual All-Europe Young People in A.A. Conference ("EURYPAA") will be hosted by Dublin, Ireland, 12-14 August 2011. Visit: http://www.EURYPAA2011.com/ for details and SPREAD THE WORD! For more information about EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN email: info@eurypaa2011.com We look forward to sharing EURYPAA with you! As the big book says, "this is an experience you must not miss!" Until then we wish you a very Happy & Sober St. Patrick's Day! In fellowship, Jay G. Niamh E. EURYPAA Advisory Chair EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN Chair IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7263. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anne Ripley Smith''s Birth Year From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2011 9:26:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII MARCH 21, NOT MARCH 3 Although it can't be distributed, the attached is a scan of the June 1950 Grapevine article. It clearly states "March 21, 1881 - June 1, 1949." Since the article was written a year after Anne's passing, and Dr Bob was still living, I'd prefer to give credence to it as opposed to the other cited sources. I'd appreciate seeing a copy of the June 1950 article (not a transcription) that shows "March 3, 1881 -- June 1, 1949" as stated below. Cheers Arthur ________________________________________ From: OedipusTax Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 Subject: Re: Anne Ripley Smith's Birth Year Contrary to what Arthur S. and Jim Blair said, the June 1950 Grapevine article does not say March 21 but March 3: Anne Ripley Smith March 3, 1881 -- June 1, 1949 The Loving "Spiritual Rock" of Early A.A. Wife of Dr. Bob "The Mother of A.A." A Tribute to Anne Smith A.A. Grapevine, June 1950 SOMEHOW we believe Dr. Bob's beloved Anne would prefer this simple tribute beyond all others. It was written by one who knew her well. It came from the bottom of a grateful heart which sensed that extravagant language and trumpeting phrases would serve only to obscure a life that had deep meaning .... IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7264. . . . . . . . . . . . Name of book/author on 3 p''s: prestige, power and pocketbook From: calistogababe . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/23/2011 11:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is a book, I have heard, that Bill W. read and used when he was writing the traditions. It was a comparative religion study that identified the 3 principles that were crucial for a successful spiritual fellowship. So the 3 p's to be careful of are: prestige, power and pocketbook. Does anyone know the name of that book or the author? Many thanks, Suzanne T. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7265. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is alcoholism a disease? From: Bryan Reid . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/23/2011 5:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Bryan Reid, bsdds, Laurie Andrews, and stalban - - - - From: Bryan Reid (humblephoenix at gmail.com) The head doctor at the treatment center I went to gave a lecture on this as part of the program. He said it was definitely a physiological (or biochemical) change. I know that to be true in my case. - - - - From: bsdds@comcast.net (bsdds at comcast.net) As one who contributed and spoke at the initial conference on alcoholism for the American Dental Assn in Chicago in 1985, this is a conundrum. I was associated with a med school as an " adjunctive member" of the dept of psychiatry back then and Texas Tech was very active in describing this phenomenon of alcoholism as a disease. They (Tech med school) were awarded 4 or 5 career teachers awards in the study of alcoholism. I remember that Stanley Gitlow, MD at one of the IDAA meetings back in the 70's in NJ, talked about "give the doc the dignity of a disease" and it would go a long way in sobering him/her up. And there were statistics back then that Docs who believed it was a disease did far better in recovery over a five year span. There is the works of Dr. Bissell, Dr. Robert Morse at Mayo's and many in the field who absolutely presented Alcholism as a disease. This was 30 years ago and I don't remember specifics on who where or what the research was ......... but, there were a good number of physicians who simply did not and do not think this is a disease, as they learned. It became a semantic issue. To me, its a mute point....don't take the first drink. - - - - From: Laurie Andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) I can be sick or ill without necessarily having a disease. We talk of people being mentally ill, rather than mentally diseased. (Is schizophrenia a disease?) Some behavioral psychologists argue that alcoholism is not a medical condition at all; they say problem drinking is learned behavior and as such can be unlearned. So for a layman like Bill to designate alcoholism as a disease would have immediately mired AA in controversy; maybe that's why - in anticipation of Tradition Ten - he studiously avoided claiming such expertise. Kurtz explores disease as metaphor and observes, "The heart of the alcoholic malady, AA teaches, is spiritual disease ... The spiritual is the key to the AA program ..." (Not God: a history of Alcoholics Anonymous, p200ff). If a physician told me I had diabetes and my only hope was a spiritual awakening I would demand a second opinion. Has the General Service Conference ever discussed whether or not alcoholism is a disease? - - - - From: (stalban2001 at yahoo.com) Great insights. I'm a right-side of the brain kind-of-guy, so the scientific evidence and research has never impacted how I regard addiction. When I first came in it sure felt like a "sickness," but over time I came to understand it as a "spiritual malaise." The "allergy" concept was always useful as a splendid metaphor that works wonders with newcomers. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7266. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate From: Charlie Parker . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/23/2011 5:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jeff Bruce asked in Message 7259, what page in the Big Book is the following quote from? "Other thousands came to a few A.A. meetings and at first decided they didn't want the program. But great numbers of these -- about two out of three -- began to return as time passed." ____________________________________________ That quotation is from the Foreword to the Second Edition, near the end. In the present (4th edit.) Big Book, it's on page xx. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7267. . . . . . . . . . . . 2% AA success rate? what article? what evidence cited? From: Michael Dunn . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2011 8:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It said in Message 7253 from "kimrowe24" http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7253 <> Can you give us a link to the article you mentioned? MY OWN OBSERVATIONS: The figures from GSO's surveys are accurate as designed, and as designed they cannot possibly agree with Bill's original measure of AA success. When I look at my own group, I feel as you do - measured as Bill did, we have a similar success rate as back then. One problem with the original has always been the statement "Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried"- who judges who "really tried", this is a pretty subjective measure. In my own group of 45 members, the average continuous sobriety is 19 years.So AA seems to be working fine in my neck of the woods. Michael D. Shediac NB, Canada IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7268. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate From: Sober186@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/23/2011 4:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sorry, but I just do not see how one can quantify the recovery rate of AA in any meaningful way, without general agreement on the definition of the term "alcoholic." What is an alcoholic? The book, alcoholics Anonymous gives us little help telling us we can judge ourselves but not others. In the Chapter The Doctors Opinion a definition is made. The doctor writes that: I personally know of scores of cases who were of the type with whom other methods had failed completely. They took a drink and the phenomena of craving at once became paramount to all other interests. In the chapter There is a solution there are different definitions: The tragic truth is that if the man be a true alcoholic ... He has lost control. At a certain point in the drinking of every alcoholic he passes into a state where the most powerful desire to stop drinking will not prevent him from getting drunk. In the Chapter More About Alcoholism, Bill seems to believe there were different kinds of alcoholics and that they were different from heavy drinkers. Alcoholics are men and women who have lost control over our drinking. ... Alcoholics of our type are in the grip of a progressive illness. ... alcoholics of our kind ... ... real alcoholics... So, is it possible that people were who were coming to the doors of AA in the early years could have been different than the kinds coming to the doors of AA today? I don't know but until we do, we at least need to allow for the possibility. similarly, how does one define accepting the program. In the early days, different groups had very different criteria for membership. In at least some, the newcomer needed to work all the steps before he was considered a full fledged member. And how does one define success. For instance, I have just over 25 years sobriety in AA. Previously, without attending any AA meetings or reading any AA material, i went nine years without drinking. What criteria do we use to define success, and when comparing today and yesterday, what criteria did old timers use to define success. Some, including Bill W. described himself as "recovered." Virtually no one does today. Are any of us successful, or even as successful as we want to be? Hopefully,with the help of a power greater than myself, I will be more successful tomorrow than I am today. We'll see about that. Love and serve, Jim L in Central Ohio IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7269. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2011 8:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I recall (I hope correctly) that the WHO study a few years ago revealed that AA in at least one country (perhaps it was Sweden -- my copy of the report is not immediately accessible) was compelled to accept money from the country's government, which insists on supporting all charitable groups (or perhaps all non-denominational charitable groups). There are certainly international variations in AA (anonymity in Mexico, for example, apparently means something quite different from what it means here), and AA does what it can in accordance with local laws and local customs. But this is our side of the street and that is the other side -- right? As I understand the history and structure of AA, our GSO and our AAWS and Grapevine boards and our Trustees generally have no particular authority -- which includes authority to interpret the traditions -- outside of what they have in the United States and Canada. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7270. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2011 9:17:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In 1986 AA in Great Britain was forced to ask the UK Parliament to pass an Act allowing the Fellowship to decline outside contributions. I've seen a copy of the Act on the wall in the archives department at GSO, New York. Copies are available from the British General Service Office at York (see AA GB website for contact details). The July 2007 issue of "Share" magazine (the GB equivalent of "Grapevine") carried this report: " 'Share' carried the following letter from Jim H., chairman of the General Service Board, in the March 1986 issue: Dear Members, Due to the recent publicity in the national Press regarding legacies, the General Service Board feel it necessary to issue the following statement: 'It has always been the policy of the Board to decline legacies, donations etc from outside sources, thus complying with the Seventh Tradition. Several months ago, a legacy was declined in the normal way but the solicitor (lawyer) concerned challenged our right, as a charity, to refuse monies and gave notice to pursue the matter through the courts. Losing our charitable status could lead to the forfeiture of all the Fellowship's assets. The Board had, therefore, no alternative but to place the matter in the hands of our solicitor and eventually to seek the opinion of counsel. Discussions took place over a lengthy period of time with representatives of the Treasury Solicitor's Department and the Charities Commission and it was finally clearly established that we would be in breach of charitable law if we refused outside contributions. The only solution available to us was to submit a Private Bill to Parliament which, is successful, would change the law and allow the Fellowship to decline all, or part of, any legacies, gifts etc. In effect this will enable the Fellowship to adhere strictly to the Seventh Tradition and at the same time conform to the law of the land. A more detailed report will be submitted to the 21st annual General Service Conference at the University of Manchester, 11-13 April 1986. "This is an extract from the Parliamentary Bill to which Jim H. refers and which was eventually passed into law: 'Alcoholics Anonymous is an inchoate fellowship whose members seek to overcome their addiction to alcohol by the practice and adherence to a code of principles which have evolved empirically since the fellowship was founded. Alcoholics Anonymous from time to time receives legacies or gifts of such magnitude as would, if accepted in whole, endanger the principle of self help upon which Alcoholics Anonymous operates: Difficulties in law have been found in disclaiming such legacies or gifts whilst securing the charitable purposes of the legacy or gift and been made more acute by the rule of law prohibiting disclaimer in part: It is expedient that the Company (i.e. AA) should be empowered to deal with legacies or gifts in such a way as to both uphold the principles of Alcoholics Anonymous and the charitable intent of the benefactor: May it therefore please Your Majesty that it may be enacted by the Queen's most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal and Commons, in this present Parliament, and by authority of the same, as follows ... The Company may if it thinks fit disclaim all or part of the property comprised in any relevant disposition...' (Alcoholics Anonymous [Dispositions] Act, 1986). "Share" then quoted the long form of the Seventh Tradition: "The AA groups themselves ought to be fully self supported by voluntary contributions of their own members. We think that each group should soon achieve this ideal; that any public solicitation of funds using the name of Alcoholics Anonymous is highly dangerous, whether by groups, clubs, hospitals, or other outside agencies; that acceptance of large gifts from any source or of contributions carrying any obligation whatever, is unwise. Then, too, we view with much concern those AA treasuries which continue, beyond prudent reserves, to accumulate funds for no stated AA purpose. Experience has often warned us that nothing can so surely destroy our spiritual heritage as futile disputes over property, money and authority." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7271. . . . . . . . . . . . Link to article about Red-Headed A.A. nurse Known as Teddy From: KATHERINE DI GIULIO . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2011 2:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If no one has sent this to you yet, here is a link to an article by Teddy. http://serenityfound.org/history/nurse.html Best, Katherine DiGiulio, Ph.D. Larkspur Productions, Inc. 45 Franklin Ave. Plainville, Connecticut 06062-1601 860.747.3992 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7272. . . . . . . . . . . . The modern medical definition of alcoholism as a disease From: jamesjharp@suddenlink.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/25/2011 4:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "... phenomenon of craving ..." Medical Definition - Disease - An impairment of health or a condition of abnormal functioning. These three (3) words, i.e., " ... phenomenon of craving" are contained five (5) times in the section called The Doctor's Opinion, William D. Silkworth, M.D., Alcoholics Anonymous, emphasizing clear unequivocal physiological component to alcoholism. This comprehensive definition of Alcoholism was published by the Journal of the American Medical Association in 1992. This definition was prepared by the Joint Committee to Study the Definition and Criteria for the Diagnosis of Alcoholism of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American Society of Addiction Medicine. Approved by the Boards of Directors of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence, Inc. (February 3, 1990) and the American Society of Addiction Medicine (February 25, 1990). Definition of Alcoholism -- published by the Journal of the American Medical Association "Alcoholism is a primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by continuous or periodic: impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, most notably denial." Primary refers to the nature of alcoholism as a disease entity in addition to and separate from other pathophysiologic states which may be associated with it. Primary states that alcoholism, as an addiction, is not a symptom of an underlying disease state. Disease means an involuntary disability. It represents the sum of the abnormal phenomena displayed by a group of individuals. These phenomena are associated with a specified common set of characteristics by which these individuals differ from the norm, and which places them at a disadvantage. Often progressive and fatal means that the disease persists over time and that physical, emotional, and social changes are often cumulative and may progress as drinking continues. Alcoholism causes premature death through overdose, organic complications involving the brain, liver, heart and many other organs, and by contributing to suicide, homicide, motor vehicle crashes, and other traumatic events. Impaired control means the inability to limit alcohol use or to consistently limit on any drinking occasion the duration of the episode, the quantity consumed, and/or the behavioral consequences of drinking. Preoccupation in association with alcohol use indicates excessive, focused attention given to the drug alcohol, its effects, and/or its use. The relative value thus assigned to alcohol by the individual often leads to a diversion of energies away from important life concerns. Adverse consequences are alcohol-related problems or impairments in such areas as: physical health (e.g., alcohol withdrawal syndromes, liver disease, gastritis, anemia, neurological disorders); psychological functioning (e.g., impairments in cognition, changes in mood and behavior); interpersonal functioning (e.g., marital problems and child abuse, impaired social relationships); occupational functioning (e.g., scholastic or job problems); and legal, financial, or spiritual problems. Denial is used here not only in the psychoanalytic sense of a single psychological defense mechanism disavowing the significance of events, but more broadly to include a range of psychological maneuvers designed to reduce awareness of the fact that alcohol use is the cause of an individual's problems rather than a solution to those problems. Denial becomes an integral part of the disease and a major obstacle to recovery. --End of definition -- Gratefully Yours, Jim H. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7273. . . . . . . . . . . . Denmark: AA groups and clubs paying rent From: bent_christensen5 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2011 6:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you so much all. I'll pass your experience to fellow AA members and hopefully we will be able to convince our General Service Board that they have chosen a dangerous path. All the Best Bent IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7274. . . . . . . . . . . . Canada: AA groups and clubs paying rent From: Murray Eaton . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/23/2011 11:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Murray Eaton Hello; Several years ago one of our groups here in Canada asked for a special rate because AA was a non-profit organization of a different type. The Community Hall went to the papers with the request who printed an article about AA wanting special treatment. The publicity was embarrassing and unwelcome and the request was a contravention of the 7th Tradition. 30 years ago I was told that we could not even accept such things as well-meaning Church Ladies making and donating sandwiches for our meetings or free coffee from a member who owned a restaurant on a regular basis. The group, as a whole, had to be self-supporting. The 7th Tradition is very clear about us being self-supporting and that means not accepting handouts even when they are there for the taking. Bill Wilson's explanation in the Twelve and Twelve is very detailed and one would hope it would be the final word. In Love and Service Murray E. Brampton, On. - - - - From: gary lockhart Gary up here in Canada, eh! Close to Niagara Falls. To my knowledge - all groups, meetings, districts, in our Area 86 - pay their own rent and in some cases - insurance, as some facilities are asking that of us. Some groups use the 7th Tradition monies for medallions and refreshments - while others are opposed to this practice as neither seems to be a part of traditional AA. Having served at various levels of our Service structure for the past 20+ years, I have yet to hear of a rent free facility. Gary - - - - From: Michael Dunn In my local area, AA groups meet in church halls and similar buildings, usually without rent required. My own group meets in two different buildings of this nature and we donate the equivalent of reasonable rent to the building owners. At one time we had a club in the closest city, the building was owned by a few AA members as a separate corporation in the name of the owners, the AA name was not used at all. The AA group was of course a separate entity and paid rent to the corporation. With the growth in the number of groups in the area, this club eventually closed its doors. Most meetings today are in churches, municipal facilities etc., though a few groups rent space in commercial buildings. Michael D. Shediac NB, Canada IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7275. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? From: edgarc@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2011 4:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Edgar C., Sober 186, Les Cole, and Jim Robbins - - - - From: edgarc@aol.com (edgarc at aol.com) The three groups in which I am active here in Sarasota, Florida, all pay rent for use of church facilities, as have all the groups I have been associated with in the past, both here and in the Chicago, Illinois area. One exception was a local hospital which offered us a free room for our weekly Traditions meeting. When the group conscience refused to challenge the no-rent status, a few of us including me left the group. There was a certain delicious irony in a Traditions meeting group consciously violating a basic Tradition through a group conscience vote. But we must remember that as Bill W said, every group has the right to be wrong. Edgar C, Sarasota, Florida - - - - From: Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com) Tradition three reads ... Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation. The group cited does not seem to have any other affiliation, so my call itself an A.A. group. Also, Tradition three also makes each group autonomous. The long form stays, "With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be responsible to no other authority than its own conscience." So, while I may have my own opinion on the matter, my opinion does not count unless I am a member of that home group. If so, I get a vote. My side will not always prevail. Tradition seven reads that A.A. groups 'ought to be' fully self supporting. IMHO, That means the tradition can be seen as a simply reminder to make sure the group and the body offering the space be separate. While I may personally feel that it is not be the best thing for a group to accept free rent there is nothing in the traditions to prevent it. As Bill wrote, each group should be free to make its own mistakes. Jim L. in Central Ohio - - - - From: LES COLE (elsietwo at msn.com) Hi All: Here is another thought about RENT for Fellowship Meeting space ... I think there is too much emphasis these days on "paying our own way" or "accepting no charity". Yes ... Fellowship meetings are for our own benefits, but the very existence of an AA group(s) in the community is in fact, a community service. Meetings are advertised (in various ways) so that new, unserved alcoholics, might become interested in the AA 12-steps process...and certainly, as a beginning, for fellowship with others who are recovering sobriety. Let's avoid myopia ast being a "poor" organization. We will not destroy the whole AA System if we use some good-old Vermont Common-Sense which characterized Bill's whole life !!!! I believe for example; that a church which offers a room for AA meetings, sees AA as a "charitable" organization and thereby is more than willing to offer its space for a nominal price or ... no-price-at-all! There is no need for us to get hung up on constantly trying to figure out what Bill Wilson advocated back in the 30s in everything we decide to do/think today. The fundamental message which Bill promoted was "FLEXIBILITY." He invented a system which works for many, many of us. It has been "all inclusive" from the beginning...and that means that the only question to be asked is: "Do you have a drinking problem which you would like to change?" With respect to current AAHL posts about "spirituality" ... let's also remember, that Bill did a lot of thinking as he grew up in a very small Vermont town where there was/is two formal churches ... one Catholic and one Congregational (plus a number of "free thinkers" like Mark Whalon). Bill rebelled against dogmatic beliefs during his youth, but he gradually began to develop the use of the word God as he became an adult ... and he never openly adopted a specific Religion as his own. When he married into the Burnham family, he learned everything about the Swedenborgian religion, and those tenets affected him daily. Les C Colorado Springs, Colorado - - - - From: "Jim Robbins" (jrobbins1123 at yahoo.com) In one group I attend, we pay rent each month. In another, we don't pay rent, but make a donation to a charitable cause in the landlord's name each month. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7276. . . . . . . . . . . . One dollar in the basket no longer works From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2011 8:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This discussion about AA groups paying rent touches off an important discussion about the 7th Tradition: that the "$1 in the basket" rule which came into being in the 60's is not working today, 50 years later-- and many groups are in financial trouble. This custom seems (in some cases) not to have changed. Has anyone seen a poster which touched on this (I think it's an Intergroup thing -- GSO has no opinion on this?) I saw it about 10 years ago and have not been able to find it since.... It went something like this: COFFEE: 1960 @ 10 cents a cup ......... 2000 @ $1.00 GAS: 1960 @ 27 cents a gallon ......... 2000 @ $2.00 CIGARETTES: 1960 @ 35 cents a pack ....... 2000 @ $3 CONTRIBUTION IN BASKET: 1960 @ $1.00 .. 2000 @ $1.00 As Bill once said "...tight as the bark on a tree..." LOL! Staying In Service, Cindy IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7277. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Name of book/author on 3 p''s: prestige, power and pocketbook From: dillonr9@yahoo.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/26/2011 9:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Victor Kitchen, in his book, I WAS A PAGAN (1934) cites 5 P's he was a pagan to: power, possession, position, pleasure and Applause. Perhaps this book was in Bill's mind. He may have read this book while a member of the Oxford Group since its author was also a member of the Oxford Group. Peace. - - - - From GC the moderator: Vic Kitchen and Bill Wilson both joined the Oxford Group in New York City at about the same time, and were friends. Kitchen gives an excellent picture of what the Oxford Group looked like (and how it functioned and what it taught) in the New York City area at the time Bill Wilson was active in the group. For the text of I Was a Pagan, see www.stepstudy.org and for a description of what the book taught, see http://hindsfoot.org/kchange1.html The Five P's passage is at the beginning of Chapter 1. I quote the opening of that chapter here: CHAPTER I THIS BUSINESS OF CHASING FALSE GODS PAGANISM At twenty, life looked like a high adventure -- intriguing and indecorous. At thirty, it looked like a high endeavor -- socially and economically important. By forty, however, I grew highly dubious. Life seemed to have lost flavor on both counts. It was then that I met the Oxford Group. At this time, I think, I would have described myself as "white, married and a Christian." Actually I was somewhat tarnished and discolored, married in name only, and very much of a pagan. A pagan is a man who spends his time chasing false gods. And I had spent forty years of my time in chasing "Pleasure," "Possessions," "Power," "Position" and "Applause." I now call these pagan goals my unfortunate five "P’s." - - - - Original Message from: "calistogababe" Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 Subject: Name of book/author on 3 p's: prestige, power and pocketbook There is a book, I have heard, that Bill W. read and used when he was writing the traditions. It was a comparative religion study that identified the 3 principles that were crucial for a successful spiritual fellowship. So the 3 p's to be careful of are: prestige, power and pocketbook. Does anyone know the name of that book or the author? Many thanks, Suzanne T. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7278. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate From: Kimball ROWE . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/25/2011 5:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Kimball Rowe, Ed O (Denton, Texas), and Steven Calderbank - - - - From: Kimball ROWE (roweke at msn.com) The Big Book does not attempt to define what an alcoholic is. It merely describes the alcoholic by general observations (loss of control, progressive, like us, etc.). I think this is done so the new person can identify and not be excluded. The book leaves the actual diagnosis up to each individual. If AA were to define what an alcoholic is, then someone would surely die (I'm not that bad, it doesn't apply, I've got a few good years left, etc.). The rate (percentage) given in the book and in my original message is not of those who recovered but of those who sobered up. It is very easy to quantify sobriety (not drinking). I think we all know people who got sober and did not recover (they are the ones with the white knuckles). The percentages given in the Big Book do not discuss the "early days." The early days was trial and error, hit or miss and many did not make it and some died. The percentages mentioned were in the foreword of the 2nd edition (1955) after the program of recovery had been thoroughly tested. As to how to define "accepting the program," I'm afraid I'm going to have to defer to the Big Book itself: The Big Book is precise, specific, detailed, exact, clear and all you need to begin: PRECISE: To show other alcoholics precisely how we have recovered is the main purpose of this book. (Foreword to the First Edition, xiii) SPECIFIC: "What do I have to do?" It is the purpose of this book to answer such questions specifically. (There is a Solution, pg 20) DETAILED: We shall tell you what we have done. Before going into a detailed discussion, it may be well to summarize some points as we see them. (There is a Solution, pg 20) EXACT: We had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a Power greater than ourselves. Obviously. But where and how were we to find this Power? Well, that's exactly what this book is about. (We Agnostics, pg 45) CLEAR CUT: Further on, clear cut directions are given showing how we recovered. (There is a Solution, pg 29) ALL YOU NEED: Thus we grow. And so can you, though you be but one man with this book in your hand, we believe and hope it contains all you will need to begin. (A Vision for You, pg 162-163) I know some still say that "our book is meant to be suggestive only" or that "more will be revealed." The book was written in 1939. Don't you think that if a better plan or a better idea had been devised by one of the countless thousands of geniuses that sobered up after 1939 that they would have included it in the first 164 pages of the book Alcoholics Anonymous? Even the brightest bulb in our fellowship has yet to add or remove anything from the original program of recovery. Thousands of people share in meeting these days on how they work "their program." And believe it or not, I'm ok with that, so long as they don't call it the AA program of recovery. People unable to accept the AA program of Alcoholics Anonymous generally find another way to say sober. AA has no monopoly upon therapy for the alcoholic (see page xxi). If you don't like the AA program, there are 48 other treatment modalities to choose from. I chose AA for a number of reasons. The first is that only AA has "Old-Timers." Laying aside the "percentages," only AA has a program of growth after recovery. This is not a program where you recover, then get sent away -- on the contrary, they ask you to come back. The people who help me do so from personal experience and not because a textbook tells them I am eligible for a class C intervention. In short, each person has the right to select their method of recovery, the AA program or something else. In general terms, if you thoroughly follow the path, completely give yourself to this simple program, are rigorously honest, go to any lengths, take certain steps, are fearless and thorough from the very start, let go of your old ideas absolutely, find a Higher Power, and take the suggestions, then I'd have to say you have accepted the program. I find no difference between the people coming through the doors today, and those coming through the doors when I first sobered up. I think the fundamental reason for this is that selfishness is still selfishness, self-centeredness is still self-centeredness, ego is still ego, an obsession is still an obsession, and that physical craving is still the same physical craving. Oh, the times have changed but the alcoholic did not. Some will say that we are under greater pressures today, but just try selling that bologna to the "Greatest Generation." I remember outhouses, crank phones and life without a TV. Those days did not stop my grandfather from drinking. Not did iPod force a drink down my throat. The ego, the obsession and the phenomenon of craving seem to be impervious to the environment. Not do I believe that alcoholism is genetic. If it were genetic, then why aren't we all in gene therapy? Have you ever seen a gene whose ego had to be smashed? For that matter, have you ever seen a gene with an ego? I do believe that it is a disease (so did Congress in Alcoholism Prevention, Treatment and Rehabilitation Act of 1970, also known as the Hughes Act. which declared alcoholism an illness and provided funding for treatment centers -- thus the explosion of treatment centers in the 70s). I also believe that it is an allergy provided you use the AMA's definition of an allergy: "An allergy is an abnormal reaction to a foreign substance." Alcohol is foreign to the human body and when I swallow it I react abnormally. The phenomenon of craving is not normal. The folks sobering up in the 30's had the same illness and the same allergy that I do. They wrote a book that solved their problem. They also wrote a book that solved my problem. Thus we are the same. I've been doing this for a long time. In conclusion I must say that defining the problem is not nearly as constructive as defining the solution. I find my solution in the book. - - - - From: "edcasey74" (personaminor at gmail.com) Jim, I think the only way to define sobriety in Alcoholics Anonymous is to go back to the Big Book. I understand that individual interpretations may vary, but I always try to look back at the collective experience of our founders when I hear anyone's individual experience. The title page of the Big Book says that this is "The story of how many thousands of men and women have recovered from alcoholism." This is a lot of hope, but before I can recover from alcoholism, I need to see if I'm an alcoholic. Of course this is something I need to diagnose for myself, but I need some information about alcoholism first. In summary, the book defines alcoholism as a hopeless state of mind and body. The body refers to the physical reaction to alcohol (the allergy which produces a craving). If I can drink without developing the phenomenon of craving, I'm not an active alcoholic (though I might yet become one in the future). The mind is the mental obsession. If I can choose to quit drinking and stay stopped on my own will power, I'm not an alcoholic (though I may progress). I'm sure you know all this, but it's surprising how many in AA don't. What came along with what you said about early AAs not being allowed into meetings until they had finished the steps (a very common practice for the first 20 years or so of AA's history) was a system of personal sponsorship, the first step of which was qualification. If you showed up at an early AA group (most of them), they assigned you a sponsor, and that man or woman sat down with you and qualified you as an alcoholic. If you didn't exhibit both the physical and mental symptoms, they made sure you understood that you were not an active alcoholic, and though you might yet become one, you didn't need AA. Of course, if you had both symptoms, wanted to quit drinking for good, and were willing to go to any lengths to stop, that man or woman would take you through the steps in a very short period of time (see "He Sold Himself Short," pg. 258 in the 4th ed.). Then that person would sponsor you into the meeting, their word that you had worked the steps being good enough to allow you in as a recovered alcoholic. In regards to the statistics in the Foreword to the Second Edition, many early groups kept membership records. They also took attendance; it was the secretary's job to make sure all members were present, and if someone was absent, the secretary would get someone to call or visit that person and make sure everything was okay (or 12th-step them). If you showed up at a group for your first time, it was also the secretary's responsibility to assign you a sponsor. So in many of the early groups, they knew exactly how many people were coming, and how many were sticking. Nowadays we don't keep the same kinds of stats, so it's difficult to make the same kind of report. In my own experience, I don't see those kind of success rates in most groups in my area. When I visit a group that I've going to for a while, I don't often see many people who were sober when I got there. We'll have lots of newcomers and people with a couple of years, and a couple of guys with over 20 years, but hardly anyone between 3 and 15 years. It's very odd. People will come for a while, but they don't tend to stick for a very long time. I know the Program works, but obviously something is different around here. Ed O - Denton, Texas - - - - From: "Steven" (steven.calderbank at verizon.net) The whole notion of AA's success rates seems foolish, much like trying to quantify who in church will go to Heaven. How does one measure "those who really tried"? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7279. . . . . . . . . . . . An additional way to quantify the AA success rate From: gcdavid1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/29/2011 9:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII An additional way to use some fairly precise historical data already in our possession, to at least roughly quantify the early AA success rate: I couldn't help but think of the "numbers" printed on the inside of the Big Book's dust jacket. It gives some good clues as to AA's "success rate" between 1939, 1955 and 1976. It states that "in 1955 membership had reached over 150,000, and the Big Book had reached a distribution of more than 300,000." That is right on the 50% mark, as stated by Bill in the foreword to the second edition. It goes on to say in "March 1976, worldwide membership of AA was estimated at 1,000,000 or more. Copies of "Alcoholics Anonymous" in circulation (1st and 2nd editions) exceeded 1,450,000. It appears that between 1955 and 1976 the "rate" of recovery based on the number of Big Books out there and the membership estimation, the rate was well over 60%. David M, on the road .... IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7280. . . . . . . . . . . . The modern definition of alcoholism used in AAWS literature From: bxdennis . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/27/2011 7:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I want to thank Jim H. for bringing to light the current medical definition of alcoholism. This is also the definition used in modern AA literature employed by AA Area committees for Cooperation with the Professional Community, etc. See AAWS pamphlet (P-23) "AA as a Resource for the Healthcare Professional," where the footnote appears: ============================================== *The definition of alcoholism as defined by the American Society of Addiction Medicine and the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence: "Alcoholism is a primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, most notably denial. Each of these symptoms may be continuous or periodic." (1992) ============================================== This pamphlet is used primarily by the Cooperation with the Professional Community, Public Information and Treatment Facilities Committees in carrying the AA message. Dennis M. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7281. . . . . . . . . . . . The two-dollar bill in the basket strategy From: edgarc@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/26/2011 5:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A few of us here in Sarasota, Florida routinely stop in a bank and buy $2 bills then use those for the collection basket. Many people comment, and we hope some follow the lead by going from $1 to a couple of singles. Edgar C TO SEE WHAT ONE LOOKS LIKE, GO TO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_two-dollar_bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7282. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: One dollar in the basket no longer works From: Janis R . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/25/2011 6:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Janis Raley, Doug Barrie, aalogsdon, and So. Jersey Ginger - - - - From: "Janis R" (janis at aadallas.org) We have free posters comparing the prices you are talking about that we produce in house. It is for 2009 but we are going to update later this year. If anyone wants one let me know. Janis S. Raley Director, Dallas Intergroup Assn. phone 214-887-6699 email (janis at aadallas.org) - - - - From: "Doug B." (dougb at aahistory.com) Cindy, I have copies of the large and small posters, and the 2 handouts that were part of this campaign in the year 2000. The man who started it was a wealthy member who tried to contribute a large amount of money to the GSO and was turned down because of the size of the check. He then decided to launch this campaign aimed at sending these materials to all of the central offices (at his expense) to get the groups and individuals to contribute more to make up for the shortfalls we were thought to be experiencing. I tried to call the man and interview him in December 2004 but he had died a month earlier. Doug Barrie E-MAIL: dougb@aahistory.com (dougb at aahistory.com) - - - - From: Aalogsdon (aalogsdon at aol.com) I have the poster from ten years ago, which Cindy referred to, and assume that they can be reproduced. - - - - From: vvpeachy@aol.com (vvpeachy at aol.com) Hello Cindy! I'm Ginger and used to volunteer in our Intergroup Office when this poster arrived and we used it for a while, saying we neither endorsed nor opposed it. My memory says it came from Las Vegas Intergroup, unsure. My group approves this being left on our flyer table. We neither endorse nor oppose. FYI ONLY left on the IG hand-outs tables... Common sense and facing our problems, including $, keeps my faith strong. God Bless, So. Jersey Ginger (Live, Love, Learn, Laugh! Ginger F. & Ron B.) - - - - Original Message from: Cindy Miller Sent: Fri, Mar 25, 2011 Subject: One dollar in the basket no longer works This discussion about AA groups paying rent touches off an important discussion about the 7th Tradition: that the "$1 in the basket" rule which came into being in the 60's is not working today, 50 years later-- and many groups are in financial trouble. This custom seems (in some cases) not to have changed. Has anyone seen a poster which touched on this (I think it's an Intergroup thing -- GSO has no opinion on this?) I saw it about 10 years ago and have not been able to find it since.... It went something like this: COFFEE: 1960 @ 10 cents a cup ......... 2000 @ $1.00 GAS: 1960 @ 27 cents a gallon ......... 2000 @ $2.00 CIGARETTES: 1960 @ 35 cents a pack ....... 2000 @ $3 CONTRIBUTION IN BASKET: 1960 @ $1.00 .. 2000 @ $1.00 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7283. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA groups paying rent in Great Britain From: joe . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/29/2011 6:27:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII With respect to message #7270 from Laurie Andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7270 LAURIE SAID: In 1986 AA in Great Britain was forced to ask the UK Parliament to pass an Act allowing the Fellowship to decline outside contributions. I've seen a copy of the Act on the wall in the archives department at GSO, New York. Copies are available from the British General Service Office at York (see AA Great Britain website for contact details). The July 2007 issue of "Share" magazine (the Great Britain equivalent of "Grapevine") carried this report .... I have seen the text of this Act posted on the wall of the Great Britain GSO Archives display in York, England. It is a powerful spiritual example of going any lengths to adhere to our traditions. However, the solicitors (lawyers) on both sides had a hand in it. The law passed, in practice, could result in money donated to AA Grat Britain not actually be returned to the family of the donor, but instead be sent to another registered charity that does alcohol research (of a sort that AA may or may not agree with -- research that we certainly do not endorse or oppose in any way). I am looking through my files to see if I can find a copy of how it is written, but the large ornamental one that I saw was framed on the wall. Roger W. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7284. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? From: Mike Batty . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/26/2011 10:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Mike Batty, Sherry Hartsell, George C., Lynn Sawyer, Larry Tooley, and David Brown - - - - Mike Batty (mcbat.t at rogers.com) A meeting that was started here in our town in a facility that refuses to take rent presented us with a bit of a dilemma. These digs are superb but the mandate of the owner was to allow community groups free use of their facility when not needed for their own purposes and they refuse rental payments. The accommodations are fantastic as this is a first rate separate building on the grounds of a funeral home that is known as their family center and use for after service gatherings. China cups, broadloom, gorgeous furniture, fireplace, comfortable seating. You could not ask for anything better. We solved the problem by giving them money to donate to their favorite charity and also a monthly contribution to their paid attendant who often has the coffee on and the fireplace going when the first of us arrives. They did take that money and we feel we have appeased ourselves with the seventh tradition. Call it what you will, donation, honorarium, rent, we feel we are paying our way. We feel we solved our dilemma. BTW we had considered naming ourselves the "Grateful We Aren't Dead" but out of deference to the location just decided on "Early Birds" as we meet at 8 am. Mike Batty, Waterloo, Ontario - - - - From: "Sherry C. Hartsell" (hartsell at etex.net) Many institutions like churches and hospitals are forbidden by their set-up to CHARGE rent, most groups deal with that by making a CONTRIBUTION to their Building Maintenance Fund, find the financial officer, they'll accept it that way, at least all have in my experience. Sherry C. H. Pittsburg, Texas AA Group - - - - From: "george" (clevelandgeorgem at gmail.com) I'm the director of a non-profit facility in New Hampshire that hosts seven 12 step meetings a week. Almost all are AA. All of those groups pay us something. The highest is $40 per month. We have a new 11th Step meeting that's started and runs right after a regular meeting. Because it's new and word is still getting out, we aren't charging them. Most of these meetings are at night. It's cold in New Hampshire. Cold means ice which means sand which means dirt all over the floor. The same floor that is used for yoga or exercise classes the next morning. And there's heat. We don't ask or expect the groups to spit shine the floor. But it takes one of us a bit of time to redo the room. "Expecting" free room use is not reasonable. I would wager that 99.7% of AA groups pay for the coffee they use. Would the No Rent faction leave a meeting that used 7th Tradition funds to pay for the coffee? A good argument could be made for groups to only buy Fair Trade coffee so they feel comfortable that the workers are being fairly paid and don't have to resort to drugs to augment their income ... and so on down the rabbit hole. My humble interpretation of working the Steps includes a sponsor showing me how to make financial amends and learning to pay my bills; not looking for easier, softer way. Our staff and our board consider it part of OUR responsibility to the community to make meeting space available. And needless to say, I like having a meeting I don't have to drive to ... George - - - - From: Lynn Sawyer (sawyer7952 at yahoo.com) Dear Bent, Can only speak for my area. I'm in Northern California, USA, and almost all of our groups are self-supporting, in terms of paying rent, as is recommended by our Traditions. Maybe you've gotten some responses from elsewhere, too ......... Lynn S. keepin' it simple Sacramento, California, USA - - - - From: "Larry Tooley" (wa9guu at charter.net) Yes but: my old sponsor said we are to get back into the mainstream of society. We pay our own way. We AA's need to learn that. Our church needs to see that. If you don't get much money give half for rent. Sadly one bloke accepted free two big fans as charity. Are we a welfare society now? Larry T, Centralia, Illinois - - - - From: David Brown (copperas44 at yahoo.com) The dangerous path is the wrong path as it ignores the premise of the traditions .... fight to make sure that this does not stand. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7285. . . . . . . . . . . . Kistler''s Donut Shop From: joe . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/26/2011 11:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I searched earlier posts and the internet regarding the tradition of serving coffee and donuts in early meetings. I remember (or think I do) reading about a group who went to a donut shop after the meeting, but because of the depression era economy of the 1930's decided to bring donuts to the meeting for those who could not afford the luxury of going to the donut shop. It may have been Kistler's Donut shop in Akron, which is no longer there. If anyone can point me to such a story I would be grateful. I am scanning AA Comes of Age, Dr. Bob and Good Oldtimers, or Pass it On where it might be but haven't found it again yet. Roger - - - - From the moderator: see http://hindsfoot.org/nfirst.html for one reference, to Glenn Chesnut's article on the early Akron AA figure J. D. Holmes, citing Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers page 147. This was around early 1938, and J. D. was describing the early Akron AA get-togethers: ============================================== "Ernie's mother used to throw a party every two weeks during this period. She'd make the doughnuts, and though everybody was broke, we all brought something. It was nothing unusual to see 25 or 30 people over there drinking coffee and eating doughnuts." ============================================== IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7286. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: God as we understood Him: atheists and agnostics From: rajiv . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/27/2011 5:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Rajiv and Bruce K. - - - - From: "rajiv" (rajiv.BeHappy at gmail.com) The 12 Steps given in the Big Book are the steps which the authors had taken, because they have said "These are the steps we took ..." in introducing the 12 Steps. So when they write "God as we understood Him," it can only mean God as the authors understood Him. And they have explained their understanding of God in the previous chapter 'We Agnostics.' In this chapter they begin by telling us that about half of them were either atheists or agnostics when they came to AA. So first of all they define the term 'Power greater than ourselves' as a 'power by which we could live', pg 45. Websters Dictionary says that in the English writing system, 'unfamiliar words when first introduced and defined in a text' are usually italicized. As we are not powers there can be no such thing as a 'power greater than us' or a 'Power greater than ourselves'. These expressions are semantically absurd and so, not to be found in written English. Bill was an expert in written English; as it had been his job to scrutinize Stock-proxy and legal documents. So when he first introduced the unfamiliar expression 'Power greater than ourselves' in the Big Book for the first time on page 45, he italicized it and explained it as a 'power by which we could live.' Thus having defined what the authors meant by God, Power and Power greater than ourselves, they explained their understanding of God on page 55: that it was a Power that could only be found deep down within ourselves. And they also tell us that 'It may be obscured by calamity, by pomp, by worship of other things, but in some form or the other it is there.' This I believe, is what the book means by saying God as we understood Him. Rajiv - - - - From: bruceken@aol.com (bruceken at aol.com) I am an atheist with regard to a "person" God and I'm a man with 24 years of joyful sobriety. Yet I try not to evangelize my views in AA. I only discuss my perception of our higher power if the topic of discussion is "God" or "religious spirituality" and then only to emphasize to any newcomers that is not necessary to believe in the God of our childhood in order to get sober and have a full, productive and creative life. The whole subject is so full of semantic hazards, that it is almost impossible to discuss it in a meaningful way without a lengthy elaboration. Bruce K. San Francisco IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7287. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anne Ripley Smith''s Birth Year From: Doug B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/28/2011 12:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The digital archives at the Grapevine web site also has March 21 for her birth date. Doug B. www.aahistory.com ________________________________________ Original Message from Arthur S. Subject: Re: Anne Ripley Smith's Birth Year Date: 03/24/11 > MARCH 21, NOT MARCH 3 > > Although it can't be distributed, the attached is a scan of the June 1950 Grapevine article. It clearly states "March 21, 1881 - June 1, 1949." > > Since the article was written a year after Anne's passing, and Dr Bob was still living, I'd prefer to give credence to it as opposed to the other cited sources. > > I'd appreciate seeing a copy of the June 1950 article (not a transcription) that shows "March 3, 1881 -- June 1, 1949" as stated below. > > Cheers > Arthur > ________________________________________ > > From: OedipusTax > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 > Subject: Re: Anne Ripley Smith's Birth Year > > Contrary to what Arthur S. and Jim Blair said, the June 1950 Grapevine article does not say March 21 but March 3: > > Anne Ripley Smith > March 3, 1881 -- June 1, 1949 > The Loving "Spiritual Rock" of Early A.A. > Wife of Dr. Bob > "The Mother of A.A." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7288. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/28/2011 9:26:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII After referring correctly to Tradition Three (on forming a group) Sober86 has (doubtless unintentially) then referred to Tradition Three when Tradition Four is the one meant (on group autonomy) -- but, more to the point, the autonomy noted in Tradition Four is not absolute -- the form discussed in the 12&12 (short or current form) reads "Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole" (the long form talks about bringing matters to the attention of the Trustees or GSO) -- and, of course, what one group is known to do will affect what other nearby groups do. As an example, when a group in the town where I live voted without notification at a closed meeting to open that closed meeting to a non-member and claimed that this was a "group-conscience" vote -- thereby going against a considerable weight of AA literature on "group conscience" and the need for an informed group conscience -- the non-member in question continued to accompany that non-member's "significant other" to other closed meetings. On being challenged, the person in question said "Well, the other group said I could come, so I'm coming" and became highly indignant when the difference between closed and open meetings was explained: I should mention that this was the fourth closed meeting this person had tried to attend (though the first attempt at the group that tried to explain the matter). As to accepting support from outside A.A., the example of one group's (say) allowing non-members to put money in the basket, or another's selling raffle tickets or dance tickets for fundraising to non-members, is considered by some AAs to be the kind of breach in the wall that is likely to bring the whole structure down eventually (and thus obviously a matter affecting A.A. as a whole). I have heard the reply, when a group treasurer said, "well it's only a little bit" -- "Yes, and it was only a little slip -- but the guy lost his sobriety." As with alcohol, I suspect, the safe course would be abstinence, so that it's not necessary to argue over size of outside donation -- or the motive in taking it. But however the argument on those points would come out, what I've seen in studying the development of the Tradition, is that the matter of who can contribute has been deemed (by quite a number of AAs over the years) a matter affecting A.A. as a whole -- see, for example, the ruckus over transportation and other costs and abeyance of costs at the san Diego International in 1995. ________________________________________ AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 Subject: Re: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? > From: Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com) > > Tradition three reads ... Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation. The group cited does not seem to have any other affiliation, so my call itself an A.A. group. > > Also, Tradition three also makes each group autonomous. The long form stays, "With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be responsible to no other authority than its own conscience." So, while I may have my own opinion on the matter, my opinion does not count unless I am a member of that home group. If so, I get a vote. My side will not always prevail. > > Tradition seven reads that A.A. groups 'ought to be' fully self supporting. IMHO, That means the tradition can be seen as a simply reminder to make sure the group and the body offering the space be separate. > > While I may personally feel that it is not be the best thing for a group to accept free rent there is nothing in the traditions to prevent it. > > As Bill wrote, each group should be free to make its own mistakes. > > Jim L. in Central Ohio IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7289. . . . . . . . . . . . San Quentin Radio Play From: jaxena77 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/29/2011 7:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I came across an interesting mention in one of Bill W's convention speeches from Cleveland in July 1950. I am looking for a transcript or audio recording of a radio dramatization of AA life in prison that Bill W. made reference to in his "We Come of Age" speech. Here is an excerpt of his speech: Next came that wonderful session on prisons. Our great friend, Warden Duffy told the startling story of our original group at San Quentin. His account of A.A.`s 5-year history there had a moving prelude. We heard a recording, soon for radio release, that thrillingly dramatized an actual incident of A.A. life within the walls. An alcoholic prisoner reacts bitterly to his confinement and develops amazing ingenuity in finding and drinking alcohol. Soon he becomes too ingenious. In the prison paint shop he discovers a promising fluid which he shares with his fellow alcoholics. It was deadly poison. Harrowing hours followed, during which several of them died. The whole prison was tense as the fatalities continued to mount. Nothing but quick blood transfusions could save those still living. The San Quentin A.A. Group volunteered instantly and spent the rest of that long night giving of themselves as they had never given before. A.A. hadn't been any too popular, but now prison morale hit an all time high and stayed there. Many of the survivors joined up. The first Prison Group had made its mark; A.A. had come to San Quentin to stay. I have been researching the history of AA in prisons, specifically San Quentin for a number of years and this particular item would be so important to the Western Area archives, and my own work. Where could I start looking for this recording or script? P.S. On a side note, I have also been looking for transcripts or recordings of Bill W's speech in San Quentin in the 50's. I have not yet contacted the prison itself. Thank you! Jackie B IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7290. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Kistler''s Donut Shop From: robtwoodson . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2011 9:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Roger, One difficulty in your search may be the fact that the name of Kistler's donut shop is misspelled (as Kessler's) in an early account by Wally G. (Gilliam) that is included in Dr.Bob and the Good Oldtimers" on P. 141 in the Chapter titled "Early Meetings and Big Book controversies" quoted below... "After the meeting closed with the Lord's Prayer, all the men beat it to the kitchen for coffee, and most of the women sat around talking to each other," said Wally, "Usually the social part of the evening lasted an hour to an hour and a half. But it wasn't until we started going to Kessler's Donut Shop that it became a real social hour." While I cannot document the following at this time, perhaps someone can; here in Akron, one understanding is that the donut shop routine continued until the donut shop itself was essentially outgrown by the fellowship. At the point when the donut shop became too crowded and that seating was no longer available for everyone after the meeting, eventually someone came up with the bright idea of taking the donuts back to the meeting ... (which at that time would have been King School). Hope that this may be helpful, Be a good guy and keep your powder dry, Woody in Akron IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7291. . . . . . . . . . . . Early California AA meetings: coffee and doughnuts etc. From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2011 4:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sybil C on one of her tapes talked about the first meeting she attended on the West Coast. In Los Angeles, the first half of the meeting was open to both husbands and wives. The second half was just for the alcoholic men. It was believed at that time women couldn't be alcoholic. At the break, the wives would prepare refreshments, which were enjoyed at the end of the meeting. When it came time for the women to leave, Sybil was told to go with the other women. At that point she broke down and cried. She desperately needed help. They took a vote and she was able to stay. She became the first sober woman west of the the Mississippi. In both San Bernardino and Riverside, California, the first meetings were held in members' homes. They were open meetings and both husband and wives attended and both stayed until the end of the meeting. After the meeting the host served coffee and occasionally cookies or cake. Most of the wives objected to a lot of coffee being drunk because it would keep their husbands awake all night. According to Drew S. from San Bernardino, California, who got sober in 1942, coffee and refreshments weren't served at any meeting, outside of homes he knew until they started meeting in local churches that had kitchens. In the North Hollywood area, I had heard of one group had a social hour before the meeting, where they had coffee and donuts. This gave time for older members to get to know some of the newer ones and others to just have some socializing before the meeting. Also mostly the big cities had coffee shops that were open late or even 24 hours a day. The early meetings in Southern California didn't start until 8:30 or 9:00 at night and weren't over til 10 or 10:30. So it was very unlikely anyone went out for coffee after a meeting unless it was in LA or other big city. I have also been told the idea of having coffee and refreshments during meetings didn't really catch on in SoCal until after they held several public meetings where they had coffee and refreshments available at the beginning and throughout the entire meeting. The sober drunks liked the idea of sipping coffee while listening to a speaker so that is how the practice helped get started there. Hope this helps Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7292. . . . . . . . . . . . Anne Smith''s date of birth March 21, 1881 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2011 2:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Baileygc23 has done some excellent detective work, for which we all owe him a debt of thanks. Both the State of Ohio death certificate AND her obituary in the Akron Beacon Journal say that Anne Smith was born on March 21, 1881 and died on June 1, 1949. (She died in the morning on June 1st, and her death notice was front page news in that evening's edition of the Akron Beacon Journal.) ======================================= PHOTOS OF THE NEWSPAPER OBITUARY AND THE DEATH CERTIFICATE: Go to http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html and go about two-thirds of the way down the page, to the section entitled "More on early Akron AA," with a photo of Sister Ignatia playing the organ in the St. Thomas Hospital chapel, and a photo of a Renner's Beer wagon. The Anne Smith material is at the end of that section: Anne Smith's Ohio death certificate and Akron Beacon Journal newspaper obituary, at http://hindsfoot.org/annesmt2.html Also Anne Smith's Journal: copy of the text, at http://hindsfoot.org/annesmth.html ======================================= From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 To: Ask A Librarian - ES Subject: Anne Smith Anne Smith, nee Ripley, was the wife of AA's Dr Robert Smith. Her date of death was June 1, 1949. There is some confusion over her date of birth. We have two different dates, the third and the twenty first. If you have the information on her date of birth from her death notice or obit, and can list your source, I would appreciate it and would post it on a history site on the subject. Regards, George C. Bailey 301 972 0992 ______________________________ In a message dated 4/4/2011 8:12:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, SPECCOLLECTIONS@akronlibrary.org writes: Mr. Bailey, I checked two sources: a transcription of Anne Smith's State of Ohio death certificate, available online through https://www.familysearch.org/ and her obituary, which appeared in the Akron Beacon Journal on June 1, 1949 on p. 1 (she had died in the morning and the paper was delivered in the evening). Both these sources state her date of birth as March 21, 1881. If you need copies of these, let me know. Our fee would be $1.10 and I can send them through regular mail or as digital images through email. Thank you, Jane Gramlich Librarian, Special Collections Akron-Summit County Public Library 60 South High Street, Akron, Ohio 44326 (330) 643-9030 speccollections@akronlibrary.org (speccollections at akronlibrary.org) ______________________________ The one other place to check would be to go to the Illinois place where she was born and see if there is a birth certificate there. I think it is Oak Park adjacent to Chicago. George IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7293. . . . . . . . . . . . How AA got started in the U.K. From: A from near Maldon, England, . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2011 6:09:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings all, I found these 2002 messages following a search for 'Lincoln Williams'. I was prompted to make a search of his name, following a stumbling across a book by said Dr Lincoln Williams called "TO EACH HIS MEMORIES (A PSYCHIATRIST LOOKS BACK ON HIS TREATMENT OF ALCOHOLICS" copyright LINCOLN WILLIAMS, 1970, made and printed privately for the author by Regency Press LONDON and NEW YORK. The jacket cover blurb mentions his other publication, "Tomorrow Will Be Sober" in 1960. No doubt these are familiar to AA UK history aficionados, but just in case not, I give this info. I came across this book in my parents' possessions, which one or other seems to have purchased second-hand for £1.55 sterling, judging by a pencil mark on the inside cover. The original price from the fly-leaf (that is, when the book was new) was 30 shillings, which would be £1.50 in the present decimal currency (the U.K. shifted from pounds-shillings-pence to the decimal system in February 1971). Anyway, I have just got to the section where he mentions his first contact with A.A. in chapter XXII, page 81 after he sailed on the famous ocean liner the Mauretania in September 1947 to investigate having met Bob, Chris and Norman in London after replying to an advert in The Financial Times. I am a little surprised there is only one reference to Lincoln Williams on the site but at least there is now one other. Are his books well known amongst the AA history students? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Fiona" Nancy Olson wrote: > > Hi, Buffs: > > Our wonderful friend in England, Max C. has sent me some information on AA in the UK. I find it fascinating and hope you will too. > > Nancy > > Max writes: > > For the sake of brevity and clarity, this takes the form of a skeleton chronology; something that may be fleshed out more fully according to interest and contributions from other members. I am particularly interested in any recollections USA members may have about their attendance at UK meetings. > > As you know, I am new to AA history, apart from my own of course, but it is entirely possible now to delve in depth into archive material, which I hope to be able to do eventually: This is just a timely offering drawn from sources immediately to hand, without further research. So here goes: > > 1946 JULY > The earliest official record appears to be a letter to the N.Y. central office from Dorothy HE, an American who had been living in London for an unspecified period. She gave as her replacement contact for London the name of Chris B. He apparently was 12-stepped by Albert T, that friendly Fifth Avenue tailor who was so helpful to Bill W, and of course to AA as a whole. Conor P met Richard P in Ireland at this time. > > 1947 - MARCH > Grace O, an American AA and her (non-AA) husband Fulton were on a visit to London. She was armed with a contact list provided by GSO N.Y., which included the Chris B mentioned above. There were also to be found in London at that date: Bob B, a Canadian who got sober in N.Y. some 19 months previously; a US serviceman Vernon W, a founder member of AA in Bermuda; and Norman R-W, an Englishman who 'wanted to want to get sober'. > > Grace O convened a meeting at the Dorchester Hotel, Park Lane, which was held in her room there. In addition to those mentioned above, she managed to pull in Patricia G, an AA from California who she had met on the ship coming over; an American stunt driver, Flash W, and an Irish airman, Tony (Pat) F. > > The meeting went ahead and marks the beginning of AA proper in England. Bob B, known after as 'Canadian' Bob, became its Secretary. > > I shall refer later to the difficulty experienced by the fledgling group in placing advertising for potential membership. > > Later in 1947, the journal of the British Medical Association, "The Lancet", mentioned AA in an article and Dr. Lincoln Williams, who had laboured long in the field of alcoholism, with little success, took a strong supportive interest in AA from then on. I shall refer to this later. > > 1948 - JANUARY > Lottie T joined the London group as the first woman newcomer. She became > Secretary later that year when Canadian Bob went to work in N. Rhodesia on a contract. > > Bill H, who was "An English Greengrocer" in early editions of the BB, was 12-stepped by Canadian Bob. Bill H set up the first AA telephone service at his office. > > 1948 -- AUGUST: Marty M is guest speaker at a "large open meeting" and "performed a miracle" on her visit to London, according to Lottie T. > > Vernon W, the US serviceman, registered an objection regarding meeting format concerning the Lord's Prayer and passing the hat at open meetings. I shall refer to this later. > > NOVEMBER: First meeting of the Manchester group. British AA membership hits 100. > > 1949 - JANUARY > Membership had risen to 120 > > MAY > Lottie T has serious slip. Bill W declines invitation to visit London as "the time for such a trip is still early", but expressed his delight with "the way things are going, on your tight little island." > > Edinburgh First and Glasgow Central groups officially established, after encouragement by Marty M. > > First Liverpool group established. > > 1950 - JUNE > Bill W and Lois, accompanied by Agnes F, commence their tour of English, Irish and Scottish groups, staying in London at Brown's Hotel, Mayfair. More about this later. > > Bill W was able to resolve the long standing problem of non-availability of AA literature caused by currency exchange control and customs regulations. > > 1951 - APRIL > First Welsh group meets in Cardiff, among those present was Sackville from Dublin, famous for (among other things) this epigram : "AA members are like paratroopers jumping from the aircraft. The 12 Steps are the parachute. It's suggested you pull the rip-cord, but it's entirely optional." > > London service office established in Chelsea, serving UK and Ireland. > > 1953 > First "Blue Bonnets" convention held at Dumfries. > > 1955 > London telephone service consolidated at Chelsea office UK membership estimated to be 5000 > > 1956 > First UK AA convention held at Cheltenham > > 1957 > Inaugural meeting of the GSB of Alcoholics Anonymous (Great Britain and Ireland) Limited > > 1958 > Visit to London by Hank, General Secretary of AA N.Y. office, whose advice on legacies led to an Act of Parliament enabling AA, a registered charity, to refuse all legacies. > > 1960 > The Rowntree Trust issue a brochure on alcoholism to 23,000 doctors; this included a short piece about AA. > > The Joint Committee of the British Medical Association and the Magistrates' Association meet with two members of the AA UK GSB. > > 1962 > Government Department of Health recognised alcoholism as a disease. > > 1966 - OCTOBER > First General Service Conference of AA UK held in Manchester > AA UK 21st Birthday party at Grosvenor House, Park Lane, London > > 1969 > First World Service meeting in N.Y. > > 1971 - JANUARY > Bill W died. Heavy press coverage in UK > > General Service Conference reports that 40 AA groups had been established within prisons 1971 > > First European Convention of AA meets in UK > > 1972 > Second World Service meeting in N.Y. adopts London as 1974 venue > Only 10 penal establishments without AA contact in UK > > 1974 > Republic of Ireland sets up own service board, separates from GSB AA UK > London hosts third World Service meeting. > Marie O appointed as office manager at Chelsea, runs first 'professional' telephone service. > > 1977 > Meetings held for first time with the Confederation of British Industry, the Trades Union Congress and the Government Department of Health and Social Security, leading to the publication of the Public Information workbook in 1980. > > 1978 > World Service Meeting, Helsinki, Finland, establishes European Information Centre at GSO London > > 1983 > Establishment of 15th (English Speaking) European Region, mainly for American servicemen. > > 1986 > GSO moved to York, leaving only London Region telephone service in Chelsea. > > 1988 > Marie retired, replaced by Maria as manager of London Region telephone office, Chelsea > > 1997 > AA UK 50th Anniversary > > 1999 > Chelsea telephone office moved to N. London Maria retired > John H took over as manager with wider brief +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > That is a bare bones outline which I hope will meet the immediate need. > > There are many apparent gaps, within which the small platoons of AA and the unsung hero(ine)s are still doing their stuff, anonymously, if not necessarily quietly. > > As Bill W writes in AA Comes of Age, "in London and Liverpool we met many very anonymous Englishmen". Anecdotal evidence suggests that one Liverpool group was so well hidden away that they could not be found and Bill never did get to the meeting. I have not yet read 'Lois Remembers' and wonder if she had anything to say about the trip. > > In England, we do not have circuit Speakers or prominent AA personality figures, generally speaking, just AAs who include, of course, many titled people, sporting and entertainment 'stars' and the like, who for the most part retain a low profile within AA, and anonymity outside AA, whilst making their valuable contribution to the Fellowship. > > It seems very clear that Marty M and Bill W, on their respective visits, were able to open the minds of the UK Pioneers to a fuller understanding of what AA is all about: similarly GSO N.Y. went to 'any lengths' to sponsor UK people appropriately in the service function. > > Of the many things we AAs seem to have in common outside the alcoholism is a certain propensity to ask ourselves at many junctures: "what the hell's (been) going on here?". I certainly do. We can only clear the ground a little. I will attempt to do that with the second part of this "potted history", where questions left hanging, such as Brown's Hotel and the Oxford Groups, English anonymity, the National Health Service and the psycho- versus bio- genic adversarial debate on alcoholism, which seems to contrive to dynamite the bridge of spirituality: the foundation precept of AA. > > Some of this may be speculative or anecdotal, and could border on opinion; so I shall submit it to you first for editing, Nancy, if you do not mind, because I would not wish, unwittingly, to "engage in any controversy": indeed there is no useful purpose in that, bearing in mind the bridges AA has built over the years, (some of which are listed above) between religion, medicine and psychiatry. Those bridges seem to me to have modified much prejudice and ignorance about alcoholism, principally by adopting an attitude of open-mindedness and taking action informed by experience, as with our sobriety, odaat. > > Yours in fellowship, Max C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7294. . . . . . . . . . . . New corrected version of the Pre-AA History Book 1926-35 From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/2/2011 9:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I recently published to the web a book titled, "A Pre-AA History Book, A Study of Synchronic Events Between Years 1926 and 1935 which Culminated in the Birth of Alcoholics Anonymous." Among the many comments I received were those pointing to mistakes in grammar and punctuation. But fortunately, a kind lady editor, Nancy K. from California, donated her time and expertise to correcting my many errors. Consequently, I am now posting this new improved version. http://www.aamuncie.org/files/Pre_AA_History_Book_2011.pdf My apologies for being a better high school whiskey drinker than English student! Bob S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7295. . . . . . . . . . . . Reflection for the annual memorial Mass for Sr. Ignatia Gavin, CSA From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2011 5:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Reflection for the annual memorial Mass for Sr. Ignatia Gavin, CSA St. Patrick's Church, Cleveland, OH, April 2, 2011 4th Sunday of Lent Darkness and Light, Blindness and Sight, - these images accompany all of us on our journey of life and are the themes of the readings for this 4th Sunday of Lent. So, too, are they part of the life of Sr. Ignatia Gavin, who, as a child of 7, on this very day in 1896, one hundred and fifteen years ago, left Ireland with her parents and brother and journeyed to America. Certainly for this audience, the life and influence of Sr. Ignatia are well known not only as you've made your own journeys through darkness to light, from blindness to sight in the AA fellowship but because you have honored her life by this annual Mass since her death in 1966. So, I'd like to reflect a bit about her spirituality in the light of today's readings. The three readings and the psalm beautifully illuminate aspects of Ignatia's deep faith and trust in the providence of her God and of the spiritual motivation for her life of service. "Not as humans see does God see - because humans only see appearances, but the Lord looks into the heart" say God to Samuel in the first reading. Ignatia was always a frail, tiny person, who struggled with some kind of a breakdown in her early years in religious life and was aware of her personal weaknesses. She, herself, said "had someone told me at the crossroads of life that I'd spend my days caring for alcoholics, I'd have wilted, but God, in His Divine Providence works in mysterious ways. He can use very weak and apparently inefficient instruments to accomplish his purposes." But Ignatia, believing that about herself, used that self-knowledge, and looked into the heart of the alcoholics she felt privileged to know and help. She was compassionate and concerned for all, generous in her help and support of the AAs and their families, tough when she was dealing with the recalcitrant patient at St. Thomas Hospital or Rosary Hall, persuasive and single-minded when she was trying to get money from hospital administration or AAs for what she knew was needed for the program, yet humble and unassuming when she was praised. And if there are any old timers here who receiving a copy of "The Following of Christ" from her, you know she always wrote, "pray for me." on the inside cover. The Psalmist says "Even though I walk in the dark valley, I fear no evil; for You are at my side with your rod and staff that give me courage." Ignatia's journey was one of strong belief that God would accompany her and give courage in whatever she was asked to do. Had Ignatia not worn herself down in multiple demands of music teaching, she would never have found herself at St. Thomas Hospital with a easier desk job in the admitting office, where one day Dr. Bob came and asked for a bed for an alcoholic, admitted under the diagnosis of "acute gastritis." As she later said of what became the historic event, "it was really very simple, there was someone with a need and I was able to find a bed." "You were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord- Live as children of light for light produces every kind of goodness and righteous and truth." says St. Paul to the Ephesians. Sr. Ignatia kept up a voluminous correspondence with many of the men and women who went through the program. Her oft-repeated advice was simple, sincere and reflected what she herself lived and what she had learned from the AAs over time. For example, in a letter she wrote in 1954, to one of our sisters, she said "Live just for today. Yesterday has gone into Eternity, trust it to God's infinite mercy. Leave tomorrow in the care of God's loving Providence as I'm sure Mother Mary did and in parenthesis she wrote "this is AA philosophy." But the wording was almost identical whether she wrote to an AA priest or to his religious superior, to a corporate leader leaving Rosary Hall , to a young man, ordered for treatment after a car accident or a woman going back to her family. The Gospel recounts the moving story of the man born blind, who was given the gift of sight by Jesus. Amid all the wrangling about whether the man was really blind from birth, whether his physical ailment was indicative of his sin, whether Jesus was a sinner, the man was single-minded in recounting his experience - "I was blind, but now I see," and this man healed me. Today's Gospel shows Jesus challenging and changing the beliefs of His times which thought that any physical disability was a direct result of sin. Not so different from what Bill W., Dr. Bob and Ignatia and all those who followed them understood - that alcoholism is a disease . In the 10th anniversary of Rosary Hall in 1962, Ignatia spoke again about trying to live the principle of AA herself- "Living One Day at a Time," trusting to God's mercy and providence., especially as she said "when I get as most of the patients, people who are far away from God. They are fearful to think about Him. They feel He is too demanding, but how wonderfully kind He is when they turn to Him. That is really, as I should say, the payoff in this work- to see when they get that peace of soul, if they open up their mind and heart and throw off the garbage, as we call it, and let God's grace penetrate. Their lives are so different they can all tell you that." Her deep spirituality enabled Ignatia to help people see the beauty of God in their lives after many years of darkness. Though people have made Ignatia larger than life, as an AA friend in Ignatia's own County Mayo, Ireland said to me, " she carried a simple but powerful message to all of us, she gave us hope when we didn't have any and that hope and her humility touches us to this day." Ignatia, who now enjoys the eternal light, would say to you, as she often concluded her talks, "God bless everyone of you, my own alcoholics, whom I've had the privilege and pleasure of working with and their immediate relatives." Sr. Mary Denis Maher, CSA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7296. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Name of book/author on 3 p''s: prestige, power and pocketbook From: calistogababe . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/27/2011 12:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Suzanne T. The following information seemed to be relevant to answering my question about the 3 p's. There was a book called This Believing World by Lewis Browne, which I heard about on a history of AA share by Jim Burwell: jim-b-bbhistory1957.mp3 at xa.speakers.org http://www.aabibliography.com/believingworldbrown.html Jim Burwell writes in his early 1940s history of alcoholics anonymous: It is my opinion that a great deal of Bill's traditions came from the fourth book, Lewis Browne's This Believing World. From this book, I believe Bill attained a remarkable perception of possible future pitfalls for groups of our kind for it clearly shows that the major failures of religions and cults in the past have been due to one of three things: Too much organization, too much politics, and too much money or power. Charles Knapp Writes: Oh yes Bill knew of this book all right. He read almost everything on the subject of spiritual experiences. This Believing World by Lewis Browne, and The God Who Speaks by B.H. Streeter are just 2 other books on the subject he read. I can't find the website, but both of Browne's books were listed in Bill W.'s library and Dick B. lists This Believing World to be part of Dr. Bob and Anne's library and a book they loaned out. http://www.religion-online.org/showchapter.asp?title=3092&C=2623 http://www.barefootsworld.net/aapeople.html ________________________________________ From Suzanne T. But then I found out about Victor Kitchen's Oxford Group book "I Was a Pagan" along with the link to the article called "The Names of God: How to find a God of our understanding" at http://hindsfoot.org/namegod.html ________________________________________ In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, dillonr9@... wrote: > > Victor Kitchen, in his book, I WAS A PAGAN (1934) cites 5 P's he was a pagan to: power, possession, position, pleasure and Applause. Perhaps this book was in Bill's mind. He may have read this book while a member of the Oxford Group since its author was also a member of the Oxford Group. Peace. - - - - > From GC the moderator: > > Vic Kitchen and Bill Wilson both joined the Oxford Group in New York City at about the same time, and were friends. Kitchen gives an excellent picture of what the Oxford Group looked like (and how it functioned and what it taught) in the New York City area at the time Bill Wilson was active in the group. > > For the text of I Was a Pagan, see www.stepstudy.org and for a description of what the book taught, see http://hindsfoot.org/kchange1.html > > The Five P's passage is at the beginning of Chapter 1. I quote the opening of that chapter here: > > CHAPTER I > THIS BUSINESS OF CHASING FALSE GODS > PAGANISM > > At twenty, life looked like a high adventure -- intriguing and indecorous. At thirty, it looked like a high endeavor -- socially and economically important. By forty, however, I grew highly dubious. Life seemed to have lost flavor on both counts. It was then that I met the Oxford Group. At this time, I think, I would have described myself as "white, married and a Christian." Actually I was somewhat tarnished and discolored, married in name only, and very much of a pagan. A pagan is a man who spends his time chasing false gods. And I had spent forty years of my time in chasing "Pleasure," Possessions," "Power," "Position" and "Applause." I now call these pagan goals my unfortunate five "P's." Thanks all, In the Fellowship of the Spirit, Suzanne ________________________________________ Original Message from: "calistogababe" > Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 Subject: Name of book/author on 3 p's: prestige, power and pocketbook There is a book, I have heard, that Bill W. read and used when he was writing the traditions. It was a comparative religion study that identified the 3 principles that were crucial for a successful spiritual fellowship. So the 3 p's to be careful of are: prestige, power and pocketbook. Does anyone know the name of that book or the author? Many thanks, Suzanne T. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7297. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The modern definition of alcoholism used in AAWS literature From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2011 12:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Wikipedia: "The existence of alcoholism as a disease is accepted by some within the medical and scientific communities although critics exist..." That phrase "although critics exist" - implying public controversy - plunges AA into Tradition Ten territory. One such critic, Jeffrey Schaler (psychologist and consultant in addiction and social policy at Silver Spring, Maryland), in his book "Addiction is a choice" (Open Court, 2000), wrote, "Biomedical and psychosocial scientists range across both sides of the (disease) controversy (Filmore and Sigvardsson 1988) ... My impression is that the disease model is steadily losing ground..." John Crossan discusses the difference between illness and disease in "Jesus: a revolutionary biography" (Harper Collins 1995). He wrote: "Medical anthropology or comparative ethnomedicine has proposed a basic distinction between curing a disease and healing an illness." He quotes Leon Eisenberg: "Patients suffer illnesses; physicians treat diseases. Illnesses are experiences of disvalued changes in states of being and in social functions; diseases in the scientific paradigm of modern medicine are abnormalities in the structure and function of bodily organs and systems... Our success in dealing with certain disease problems breeds then ideological error that a technical fix is the potential solution to all ... It is essential to enquire how we can expand our horizons to incorporate an understanding of illness as a psychological event. Indeed, our worship of restricted and incomplete disease models can be viewed as a kind of ritual or magical practice in itself." Crossan also refers to Arthur Kleinman: "The key axiom in medical anthropology is a dichotomy between two aspects of sickness: disease and illness. Disease refers to a a malfunctioning of biological and/or psychological processes, while the term illness refers to a psychosocial experience and meaning of perceived disease." Crossan adds: "A disease is, to put it bluntly, between me and my doctor, and a bug ... Disease sees a problem unrealistically, on a minimal level; illness realistically on a wider level ... A cure for a disease is absolutely desirable, but in its absence we can still heal the illness by refusing to ostracise those who have it, by empathising with their anguish and by enveloping their sufferings with both our respect and love..." (Emphasis added). I believe AA was wise to describe alcoholism as an illness in the Big Book, ("An illness of this sort - and we have come to believe it an illness ..." - chapter two, There is a solution) rather than using the more limiting word disease. In in his March 1958 Grapevine article "On the alcoholism front" Bill W. wrote, "The American Medical Association has officially declared alcoholism to be a chronic illness ... The World Health organisation is carrying (all this) good news around the world ..." However, "Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religious organisation. Neither does it AA take any particular medical point of view, though we cooperate widely with the men (sic) of medicine as well as with the men of religion..." (Foreword, Alcoholics Anonymous, second edition - emphasis added). In a letter to me dated 18 October 2000 Bill A., of GSO, New York, wrote: "Our role as a society of recovered alcoholics helping others does not endow us with any medical or scientific stature. Therefore the issue of a medical determination of a disease is something on which AA could have no position. Our Traditions are clear in reminding us not to be diverted from our primary purpose as a Fellowship, and as members of that Fellowship we should respect the limitations we have. Doctor Silkworth's view of alcoholism is still contained in the basic text Alcoholics Anonymous, though as a separate and distinct Foreword. It may lack a certain medical credence these days, though the ideas still resonate with many AA's and newcomers." Seems to me that by carrying the definition of alcoholism quoted by Dennis M., the pamphlet "AA as a resource for the healthcare professional" comes perilously adjacent to endorsing the American Society of Addiction Medicine and the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence, thus setting AA on a collision course with Traditions Six and Ten. Laurie A. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7298. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Name of book/author on 3 p''s: prestige, power and pocketbook From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/8/2011 8:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Suzanne, I too thought of the Lewis Browne book when I read your post. I have a copy, so I did a quick scan of the relevant sections and didn't find anything similar to the "3 P's." Probably the Victor Kitchen book was the closest source, but expressions of that sort appeared in other places as well. I think the common source may have been the James Winan book, Public Speaking, which was popular in the early-to-mid 20th century. Winan's list of internal motivators (hooks for speakers to keep the audience listening) was similar to Kitchen's list of his own pre-conversion motivators. They were sometimes boiled down to "property, prestige, power" although the original list was longer. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7299. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/30/2011 4:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From John Wikelius, Les Cole, and Patrick Murphy - - - - From: john wikelius (justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com) It is written in my Big Book Page 30, "We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control our drinking. - - - - From: LES COLE (elsietwo at msn.com) Hi All: Back in 1994 when I started doing research about AA, I gradually defined a simple definition as to the difference between "a drunk" and "an alcoholic" for my own thinking. This does not have a source for others to look up. It is only reasoned as a pragmatist...such as Bill was. A "drunk" is a person who perpetually uses alcohol (in some form) to a debilitating degree, and doesn't choose (can't) to do anything about it. An "alcoholic" is a similar person who has the same type of difficulties with alcohol, but takes action to change the addiction, behaviorally. Thus, the use of the word "recovering". Les C Colorado Springs, Colorado - - - - From: Patrick Murphy (paddymur at yahoo.com) All this hoopla about AA's success rate ... from what I've observed over the years (43) is that AA has 100% success. Every single person I've encountered who has 'worked the Steps' has stayed sober. Every one who has ever entered our AA doors and 'did as suggested' has stayed sober. Ah yes, we have a large number of people who say 'I ain't doin' that' and 'I want the easier softer way' and they get eliminated. So, shouldn't they try to figure out why there's such a large group that won't surrender and quit saying AA has a low success rate? --Pat Murphy IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7300. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Denmark: AA groups and clubs paying rent From: joe . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/1/2011 11:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Brent, I served as a delegate to the General Service Conference of AA in UK. I chaired a committee who had the challenge of considering a long standing law of the land, a tax law specifically. In the UK, if a tax payer chooses to make a contribution to a registered charity, the government matches the contribution so long as the tax payer files the proper forms to allow the government to do so. In the UK, their GSO is such a registered charity, just as in the USA it is considered a tax-exempt, nonprofit corporation or association under section 501c of the IRS code. Therefore, we had the task of considering whether that was within the spirit of the AA Traditions and recommend back to the General Service Conference body. It was one of the toughest questions I have experienced. I had to lead an unbiased discussion, but had strong opinions of my own. At the end, the conference body accepted that the law of the land should be followed and individuals were free to donate in this manner if they wished or to simply choose to donate without completing the proper forms to alert the government of the donation. There are several other experiences closer to Denmark that could be sought from local autonomous AA service bodies. The European Service Meeting provides a venue for GSO's in your area to get together and share ideas also. Good luck and God bless. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7301. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA groups paying rent in Great Britain From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2011 6:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The relevant paragraph (five) in the Act reads: "(1) If and to the extent that the Company (GSB AA GB) disclaims the property comprised in a relevant disposition then (unless a contrary intention is expressed in the will, deed or other document) such disposition shall take effect - (a) (so long as the Council [the Alcohol Education and Research Council established by the 1981 Act] is in existence and is administering the Fund [the Alcohol Education and Research Fund] as a gift to the Council to form part of the Fund; or (b) (if the Council shall be dissolved or shall have ceased to administer the Fund) as a gift to a charity appointed under subsection (2) below, (2) If the Council shall be dissolved or shall cease to administer the Fund the Company (AA) may within six months of the dissolution or the cessation, as the case may be, appoint for the purpose of subsection (1) (b) above, with the approval of the Charity Commissioners, a charity having purposes similar to those of the Fund. (3) For the purposes of this section a relevant disposition shall not be taken as expressing a contrary intention by reason only that it does not (or may not) evince a general charitable intention. 6. This Act extends to Scotland. (From the Alcohol Education and Research Council [AERC] website): "The council's main aims are to: generate and disseminate research-based evidence to inform and influence policy and practice; develop the capacity of people and organisations to address alcohol issues." This is what Bill W wrote, in part, in an article headed "On the alcoholism front" in the March 1958 issue of "Grapevine": "We believe that sound alcohol education is a good thing ... We are glad of any kind of education that accurately informs the public and changes its age-old attitude toward the drunk ... Now who is going to do all this education? Obviously, it is both a community job and a job for specialists. Individually, we AA's can help, but AA as such cannot, and should not, get directly into this field. Therefore, we must rely on other agencies ..." I take it AA was consulted while the Parliamentary Bill and Act were being drafted, and it seems to me the chances are vanishingly small that AA would be harmed by any subsequent association with the AERC; but let's cross that bridge if and when we come to it! ____________________________________________ From: chief_roger@yahoo.com Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 Subject: Re: AA groups paying rent in Great Britain With respect to message #7270 from Laurie Andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7270 LAURIE SAID: In 1986 AA in Great Britain was forced to ask the UK Parliament to pass an Act allowing the Fellowship to decline outside contributions. I've seen a copy of the Act on the wall in the archives department at GSO, New York. Copies are available from the British General Service Office at York (see AA Great Britain website for contact details). The July 2007 issue of "Share" magazine (the Great Britain equivalent of "Grapevine") carried this report .... I have seen the text of this Act posted on the wall of the Great Britain GSO Archives display in York, England. It is a powerful spiritual example of going any lengths to adhere to our traditions. However, the solicitors (lawyers) on both sides had a hand in it. The law passed, in practice, could result in money donated to AA Grat Britain not actually be returned to the family of the donor, but instead be sent to another registered charity that does alcohol research (of a sort that AA may or may not agree with -- research that we certainly do not endorse or oppose in any way). I am looking through my files to see if I can find a copy of how it is written, but the large ornamental one that I saw was framed on the wall. Roger W. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7302. . . . . . . . . . . . Anne Smith''s prayer From: dani n . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/30/2011 6:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was listening to a speaker tape last night (Chris S. and Dave F.'s "big book adventure") and they referred to a handout that of course I don't have, with a list of prayers. The last one mentioned was a little-known prayer that they said Anne wrote for Dr. Bob that they would say together each morning - from one AA history book or another. Does anyone know what this is? A thorough Googling didn't help me at all! - Dani IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7303. . . . . . . . . . . . Anne Smith''s prayer? Or Lois and Bill Wilson''s prayer? From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/8/2011 3:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dani, Did the speakers say it was a prayer written by Anne Smith, and that she and Dr. Bob recited it each morning? That doesn't sound quite right to me. In the mornings at the Smith house, Anne would read that day's meditation from The Upper Room, reading it aloud for her family and for all the alcoholics in the Akron group who had dropped by her house for coffee before going to work. There is a collection of some typical daily readings from The Upper Room at http://hindsfoot.org/uprm1.html also see their website at http://www.upperroom.org/ BILL AND LOIS WILSON'S PRAYER What you are describing seems to be the prayer which Bill and Lois Wilson recited together every morning. You can read it in Pass It On, on page 265, or you can read it on the internet by going to http://hindsfoot.org/spiritu.html on AA spirituality, and going two thirds of the way down to the selection marked "Prayers and readings for an A.A. funeral or memorial service." Clicking on that will take you to: http://hindsfoot.org/funeral1.html About one third of the way down, you will find: =================================== Bill & Lois's Prayer (from Pass It On, page 265) Oh Lord, we thank Thee that Thou art, that we are from everlasting to everlasting. Blessed be Thy holy name and all Thy benefactions to us of light, of love, and of service. May we find and do Thy will in good strength, in good cheer today. May Thy ever-present grace be discovered by family and friends -- those here and those beyond -- by our Societies throughout the world, by men and women everywhere, and among those who must lead in these troubled times. Oh Lord, we know Thee to be all wonder, all beauty, all glory, all power, all love. Indeed, Thou art everlasting love. Accordingly, Thou has fashioned for us a destiny passing through Thy many mansions, ever in more discovery of Thee and in no separation between ourselves. =================================== Original message from: dani n (claritystone@gmail.com) Subject: Anne Smith's prayer I was listening to a speaker tape last night (Chris S. and Dave F.'s "big book adventure") and they referred to a handout that of course I don't have, with a list of prayers. The last one mentioned was a little-known prayer that they said Anne wrote for Dr. Bob that they would say together each morning - from one AA history book or another. Does anyone know what this is? A thorough Googling didn't help me at all! - Dani IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7304. . . . . . . . . . . . 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition From: Mike Portz . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2011 2:25:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My copyright 1938 (I believe the year quite a bit of the Big Book was written) edition of the "New Peerless Webster Home School and Office Dictionary" on page 28, defines alcoholism as "a diseased condition produced by alcohol." I believe this is the condition I was in when I arrived at A.A. It doesn't matter to my recovery what someone with a degree in anything, who is not a alcoholic nor addict, defines alcoholism. The doctors of all specialties were never able to find any solution to putting this disease into remission. It seems from reading about the history of alcoholism, that few really cared. How could they if they hadn't lived it? Thank God for Dr. Silkworth! Although he was not afflicted, he spent most of his life living with we who suffer. He truly cared. With regards to the statement ".... My impression is that the disease model is steadily losing ground ..." I think it is not really important what opinion a man -- a man of what I consider limited experience, no first hand personal experience of its tortures, and a highly speculative impression -- has of what the medical world considers alcoholism. It might be important to note that the word disease, as defined in the same above-mentioned dictionary, is defined as, " any mental, moral or physical disorder; malady: illness." This certainly describes exactly whatever disorder, malady or illness I am afflicted with. I hope it works for you and any other members of AAHISTORY.COM. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7305. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition From: Byron Bateman . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2011 6:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My 1937 New Popular Pocket Webster Dictionary Self-pronouncing has exactly the same definitions. Byron - - - - Original message #7304 from Mike Portz (mportz2000 at yahoo.com) My copyright 1938 (I believe the year quite a bit of the Big Book was written) edition of the "New Peerless Webster Home School and Office Dictionary" on page 28, defines alcoholism as "a diseased condition produced by alcohol." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7306. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2011 2:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Why would the authors of the most definitive book EVER written on alcoholism REPEATEDLY refer to the condition we suffer from as an "illness" if they meant "disease?" In many areas of our book, we see the authors repeatedly use synonyms and similar phrases to make the same point over and over. However, when the authors use this same device regarding the alcoholic illness, they do NOT use disease and prefer a term like malady. I believe that the fact disease is conspicuous by its absence in similar circumstances confirms that the authors were specifically avoiding that term and for good reason. In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst _________________________________________ Original message from: Mike Portz Subject: 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition My copyright 1938 (I believe the year quite a bit of the Big Book was written) edition of the "New Peerless Webster Home School and Office Dictionary" on page 28, defines alcoholism as "a diseased condition produced by alcohol." It might be important to note that the word disease, as defined in the same above-mentioned dictionary, is defined as, "any mental, moral or physical disorder; malady: illness." This certainly describes exactly whatever disorder, malady or illness I am afflicted with. I believe this is the condition I was in when I arrived at A.A. It doesn't matter to my recovery what someone with a degree in anything, who is not a alcoholic nor addict, defines alcoholism. The doctors of all specialties were never able to find any solution to putting this disease into remission. It seems from reading about the history of alcoholism, that few really cared. How could they if they hadn't lived it? Thank God for Dr. Silkworth! Although he was not afflicted, he spent most of his life living with we who suffer. He truly cared. With regards to the statement ".... My impression is that the disease model is steadily losing ground ..." I think it is not really important what opinion a man -- a man of what I consider limited experience, no first hand personal experience of its tortures, and a highly speculative impression -- has of what the medical world considers alcoholism. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7307. . . . . . . . . . . . Grapevine Play in Los Angeles From: jaxena77 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2011 4:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To Our Friends and Supporters in the AAHistoryLovers Yahoo Group, We are very excited to announce that on Saturday, June 25, 2011, In Our Own Words: Pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous will be performed in Los Angeles County for the very first time. We are especially honored for this opportunity to tell Sybil Corwin's story in her hometown, alongside the stories of Mort Joseph, Cliff Walker, Frank Randall, June G and the many pioneering members of AA in Southern California. The AAHistoryLovers Yahoo Group was vital in the researching and writing of this documentary style play. Our shows in Northern California and Texas have sold out to standing room only audiences for the past two years. Please SAVE THE DATE and spread the word to anyone you know in Southern California. We need your help to PASS IT ON! Forward this message to a friend - http://oi.vresp.com/f2af/v4/send_to_friend.html?ch=0076d7232a&lid=TEST&ldh=T EST In Love and Service, Jackie B. =============================================== FULL COLOR FLYER WITH PHOTOS: http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/771229/0076d7232a/TEST/TEST/ =============================================== IN OUR OWN WORDS: PIONEERS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS Performing for the first time in Los Angeles County! A SPECIAL BENEFIT FOR ICYPAA 2011! Saturday, June 25 at 8 pm The Lincoln Middle School Theater 1501 California Ave, Santa Monica, CA Played to standing room only audiences in San Antonio in 2010, In Our Own Words brings to life the pages of the Big Book, The Grapevine and the recordings of the pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous. Simply, and with great humor and depth, the play retells the stories of our founders in New York, Akron, Cleveland and Los Angeles. Going further into our history, In Our Own Words also shares the lesser-known struggles of the pioneering members of special composition groups in the fellowship, including the first women and young people in AA, as well as early gay, lesbian, African-American and Latino members. Join men and women like Marty Mann, Sybil Corwin, Cliff Walker, Barry Leach, Joe McQuanny, and many more, on their search for a solution and acceptance in the rooms. Their stories, and this play, are not to be missed. Tickets available soon at www.icypaahost.org IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7308. . . . . . . . . . . . Disease concept: Jellinek, Ernest Kurtz, William L. White From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2011 10:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If I might suggest that some of the the best information I've read regarding the "Disease Concept" -- yes that is what it is, a "concept" (and btw still not universally accepted and still evolving) can better be understood by reading the following references which provide some of the history of this debate. AA "as such" never pushed the "disease" theory although the fellowship certainly framed its belief as such and taught it to all newcomers, instead it was Marty Mann and the NCEA along with the RCPA and Yale's Center for Alcohol Studies that really brought the concept to its acceptance in society that it enjoys today. ======================================== JELLINEK: The Disease Concept of Alcoholism – Jellinek; 1960 ======================================== ERNEST KURTZ: Alcoholics Anonymous and the Disease Concept of Alcoholism Ernest Kurtz, Ph.D.(google it) ======================================== WILLIAM L. WHITE: A four-part series on the history and future of the addiction disease concept. White, W. (2000) 1. Addiction as a Disease: Birth of a Concept. Counselor, 1(1):46-51, 73. 2. The Rebirth of the Disease Concept of Alcoholism in the 20th Century.1(2):62-66. 3. Addiction Disease Concept: Advocates and Critics; White Counselor, February 2001 4. A Disease Concept for the 21st Century, White Counselor, April 2001 ======================================== IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7309. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2011 6:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Jon Markle, Glenn Chesnut, James Bliss, and Jeanne Fisera (Jifgift) - - - - From: Jon Markle (jon.markle at mac.com) The authors of the "first 164 pages" DID use the word "disease." See page 64. In addition, in my copy of the 3rd ed on page 187, there is a significant quote in this story which makes it clear the original founders used that word. There are other instances in the Big Book stories, but this is one of the more significant ones, I think. There is no doubt in my mind that the descriptions used in the Big Book, and the words used, clearly indicate the authors believed in the "disease" model. A disease that impacts the whole, entire body, consuming and insidiously infecting every part. It is why I believe that any approach to recovery ALSO must address every aspect of the person, not just the act of stopping drinking. Jon Markle, BA Sacred Studies/MA Agency Counseling Retired Therapist & SA Counseling Specialty: Dual Diagnosis/SPMI/COD & DBT-S HS Practitioner, Advisor & Case Consultation Raleigh, NC - - - - (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) =========================== THE TERMS ACTUALLY USED IN THE BIG BOOK =========================== Disease is in fact used only four times, but four significant times: (page 64) As part of the explanation of how to do a Fourth Step: "Resentment is the 'number one' offender. It destroys more alcoholics than anything else. From it stem all forms of spiritual DISEASE, for we have been not only mentally and physically ILL, we have been spiritually SICK. When the spiritual MALADY is overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically." (Emphasis added by me.) >> Reading this passage from page 64, it looks >> to me like all four of these words were being >> regarded in 1939 as synonyms by Bill Wilson >> and the early AA members. (pages 187-188) Bill W. and Dr. Bob talking to Bill Dotson, A.A. No. 3: "You are an ALCOHOLIC .... you have a DISEASE, and it doesn't make any difference how long you do without it, after a drink or two you'll end up just like you are now." (Emphasis added by me.) (page 191) Bill Wilson himself talking to Bill Dotson's wife Henrietta: "Henrietta, the Lord has been so wonderful to me, curing me of this terrible disease, that I just want to keep talking about it and telling people." (page 191) Bill Dotson continues: "That sentence, 'The Lord has been so wonderful to me, curing me of this terrible disease, that I just want to keep telling people about it,' has been a sort of GOLDEN TEXT for the A.A. program and for me." (Emphasis added by me.) =========================== Sick, sick person, or sickness 19 times -- pages 18, 64, 67, 90, 92, 100, 101, 106, 107, 108, 115, 139, 140, 141, 147, 149, 153, 157, and 164. =========================== Ill or illness 14 times -- pages 7, 18, 20, 30, 44, 92, 107, 108, 115, 118, 122, 139, 140, and 142. =========================== The words ail or ailment are used 3 times -- pages 135, 139, 140. =========================== Malady appears 6 times -- pages 23, 64, 92, 138, 139, and 165. =========================== - - - - From: James Bliss (james.bliss at comcast.net) Well, to throw an additional dictionary into the discussion, and to include the definitions of disease, illness and malady: The Winston Simplified Dictionary Intermediate Edition, 1928 alcoholism n. a diseased condition produced by the use of fermented or distilled liquors. disease n. disorder of mind or body; malady; illness; Disease is the general term for any departure from a state of health; it frequently suggests a more serious or long-continued state than either sickness or illness. Illness and sickness mean practically the same thing; but sickness sometimes has the additional meaning of nausea or vomiting. illness n. 1. the condition of being sick; 2, a disease; sickness malady n. a disease, exp. one deep-seated or lingering, mental or physical Jim - - - - From: Jifgift@aol.com (Jifgift at aol.com) The 1934 Webster Collegiate Dictionary says Alcoholism is a "diseased condition of the system due to excessive use of alcoholic liquors". Faith alone is insufficient. To be vital, faith must be accompanied by self-sacrifice and unselfish, constructive action. BB p.63 jeanne fisera IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7310. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition From: Tom . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2011 3:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From tomvlll and Tom Hickcox -- responding to the message posted by Chuck Parkhurst - - - - From "Tom" (tomvlll at yahoo.com) There exists no universally agreed upon, objective definition of the word disease, thus it is open to the interpretation of anyone who chooses to define it. The AMA, Webster's, the WHO etc. I agree with Chuck's take that the absence of that term in the BB was not in any way incidental. Subsequent statements by Wilson corroborate that. - - - - From: Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) I would invoke Rule 62 at this juncture: > Message #7306 from "Chuck Parkhurst" > (ineedpage63@cox.net) says > > Why would the authors of the most definitive > book EVER written on alcoholism REPEATEDLY > refer to the condition we suffer from as an > "illness" if they meant "disease?" In many > areas of our book, we see the authors > repeatedly use synonyms and similar phrases > to make the same point over and over. > However, when the authors use this same > device regarding the alcoholic illness, > they do NOT use disease and prefer a term > like malady. I believe that the fact disease > is conspicuous by its absence in similar > circumstances confirms that the authors > were specifically avoiding that term and > for good reason. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7311. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition From: bsdds@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2011 3:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Bob Schultz "bsdds" and LaurenceHolbrook "hdmozart" - - - - From: bsdds@comcast.net (bsdds at comcast.net) Many years ago, I was listening to a public service program concerning epilepsy. One of the first thing the moderator commented on was the "disease" of epilepsy. He went into a short but direct point of saying epilepsy was a "condition" not a disease and told why. It made a lot of sense to me at the time and still does. Again ... I got and what ever it is .... I don't take the first drink because, in the past drinking put me in a condition of behaving badly ... over and over and over and ...................... Bob Schultz Charlottesville, Virginia - - - - From: "hdmozart" (email at LaurenceHolbrook.com) I thought Bill W directly addressed this issue in the National Catholic Council on Alcoholism and Related Drug Problems, Inc, "The Blue Book", Vol. XII, 1960, New York, New York A Synopsis of the Question-Answer Period FOLLOWING BILL W.'S TALK AT THE NCCA SYMPOSIUM IN NEW YORK IN 1960 Father X.: Bill, I noticed that in your talk you did not use the word `disease.' Did you intend to make any kind of distinction between disease and sickness? Bill W: We AAs have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically speaking, it is not a disease entity. For example, there is no such thing as heart disease. Instead there are many separate heart ailments or combinations of them. It is something like that with alcoholism. Therefore, we did not wish to get in wrong with the medical profession by pronouncing alcoholism a disease entity. Hence, we have always called it an illness or a malady — a far safer term for us to use. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7312. . . . . . . . . . . . Proxy or absentee votes at Group conscience meetings From: pamelafro88 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/15/2011 4:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A service sponsee asked me whether there is any literature relating to proxy or absentee voting at a group conscience meeting. While I have never encountered this, I said I would ask whether there is any precedence or service material relating to this. My thoughts are that unless a person is in attendance they cannot be fully informed and therefore shouldn't cast a vote - and for other service positions, an alternate covers for unavaiodable absences. Any ideas? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7313. . . . . . . . . . . . Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics #2 From: intuited . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2011 6:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn, thanks for your thoughts on atheism and agnosticism. After rereading your book on "The Higher Power of the 12 Step Program" http://hindsfoot.org/kHP1.html and other literature, I have become acutely aware of the many definitions of agnostics and atheists. Throughout the ages agnostics seem to have been those who balked at the current religious thought. Quakers were even called agnostics. I have decided these terms are not definable, especially in light of their historical use. What seems to me to be more accurate is the use of the term gnostic -- direct knowing of the sacred. This seems much more in keeping with AA spirituality, whether utilizing the words "spirit in the rooms" on through to 11th step conscious contact. Jung was intrigued with gnostics as well. On Mar 16, 2011, at 2:33 PM, Glenn Chesnut wrote: In a preceding message, Amelia wrote: "I recently reviewed the April 2009 issue of the AAGrapevine which featured Agnostics in AA. Each story spoke of a definite spiritual experience. As I read the stories I began to think that the term agnostic was more aptly being used as a code word to mean non-Christian. The stories were full of references to a very vital spirituality, utilizing many eastern religious beliefs interconnected with meditation or energy. They were very moving stories and not what I would expect of someone who was without certainty. The Conference Committee on Literature is in the process of publishing a pamphlet 'which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous.' This 61st Conference is entertaining a request to reconsider this action. I am very curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these terms. Is it an easy way to talk about 'other than Christian' spirituality?" The Greek prefix a- means no, not, un- >>The term "theist" refers to someone who believes that God (Theos) exists. >>The term "a-theist" therefore refers to someone who believes that there is no God, that God (Theos) does not exist. >>Ginosko in ancient Greek meant "I know," so an "a-gnostic" is (literally) someone caught in a state of "un-knowing." - - - - THE RISE OF WESTERN ATHEISM IN THE 1840'S In a book I just wrote, I talk on pp. 123-124 about the Rise of Modern Atheism in the 1840's. See Glenn F. Chesnut, God and Spirituality paperback: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-k eywo\ rds=chesnut+god+and+spirituality&x=13&y=15 [9] kindle: http://www.amazon.com/God-Spirituality-Philosophical-Essays-ebook/dp/B0046ZR N82/\ ref=sr_1_cc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300217940&sr=1-1-catcorr [10] TRADITIONAL THEISTS: Some people in the western world rejected these new atheistic ideas completely, and kept on trying to defend the old conceptualities of the ancient and medieval worlds: the Bible was literally true, the church authorities were infallible, people walked on water and rose from the dead, and so on. THE NEW ATHEISTS (1840 and afterwards): Other people in the western world embraced these new atheistic ideas enthusiastically. A new world of science -- where the scientists were rapidly gaining infallible truth and explaining all things -- was going to lead the human race out of the darkness of the past. There would no longer be any uncontrollable natural phenomena killing people (like earthquakes and tsunamis?), everyone in the world would be given excellent health care (through universal health care) so that no one would ever get sick and die any longer, our machines (oil drilling rigs and nuclear power plants) would never malfunction and kill people, and so on. "AGNOSTICS": But there were many people caught in the middle: they had been brought up with traditional religious beliefs and did not want to let go of them, and yet they had no real answers to all the attacks that the atheists were making on their most cherished articles of faith. And there were others who had tired of the whole debate, and insisted that they weren't going to believe anything at all, past this point, without some kind of scientific evidence to support it. - - - - THE WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE ON AGNOSTICISM See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism Thomas Henry Huxley gave a speech at a meeting of the Metaphysical Society in 1876, in which he coined to word "agnostic" (not-knowing, un-knowing, non-knowing) to describe his philosophy, which was a rejection of ALL claims of spiritual or mystical knowledge. "Huxley identified agnosticism not as a creed but rather as a method of skeptical, evidence-based inquiry." But in the many years that followed, the word "agnostic" got adapted to describe all sorts of different approaches to religion. The Wikipedia article describes some of these varieties: =========================================== *Agnostic atheism: Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not have belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know that a deity does not exist. *Agnostic theism: The view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence. *Apathetic or Pragmatic agnosticism: The view that there is no proof of either the existence or nonexistence of any deity, but since any deity that may exist appears unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the question is largely academic. *Ignosticism: The view that a coherent definition of a deity must be put forward before the question of the existence of a deity can be meaningfully discussed. If the chosen definition is not coherent, the ignostic holds the noncognitivist view that the existence of a deity is meaningless or empirically untestable. A.J. Ayer, Theodore Drange, and other philosophers see both atheism and agnosticism as incompatible with ignosticism on the grounds that atheism and agnosticism accept "a deity exists" as a meaningful proposition which can be argued for or against. An ignostic cannot even say whether he/she is a theist or a nontheist until a sufficient definition of theism is put forth. *Strong agnosticism (also called "hard," "closed," "strict," or "permanent agnosticism"): The view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of a deity or deities and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another subjective experience. A strong agnostic would say, "I cannot know whether a deity exists or not, and neither can you." *Weak agnosticism (also called "soft," "open," "empirical," or "temporal agnosticism"): The view that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable, therefore one will withhold judgment until/if any evidence is available. A weak agnostic would say, "I don't know whether any deities exist or not, but maybe one day when there is evidence we can find something out." =========================================== As far as I can tell, there are very few AA members who genuinely understand what the term "agnostic" originally meant, that is, what the word meant between 1876 and 1939. Maybe a handful, but not many. And as far as I can see, the term "agnostic" has now come to mean so many different things, that it hardly has any real meaning left at all. So Amelia, I think that you are probably correct when you say that, at New York AA headquarters, the term AGNOSTIC is "being used as a code word to mean non-Christian," that is, as a "way to talk about 'other than Christian' spirituality." But for myself, I think that using the word "agnostic" in this way is a misuse of terms, because the chapter in the Big Book called "We Agnostics" was an attempt to deal with the skeptical position which Thomas Henry Huxley put forward in 1876. If we want a pamphlet talking about Hindu, Buddhist, New Age, Native American spirituality, worship of the Triple Goddess, wicca, modern California gnostic and kabbalistic groups, and other things of that sort, that they should have titled it something different, like perhaps "Varieties of AA Spirituality." And I also think that some of the hostility toward the pamphlet (among a lot of AA members) might lessen to a degree if it were retitled in that fashion. But that's just my two cents worth. __________________________________________ Original message from Amelia (intuited at earthlink.net) Glenn .... I recently reviewed the April 2009 issue of the AAGrapevine which featured Agnostics in AA. Each story spoke of a definite spiritual experience. As I read the stories I began to think that the term agnostic was more aptly being used as a code word to mean non-Christian. The stories were full of references to a very vital spirituality, utilizing many eastern religious beliefs interconnected with meditation or energy. They were very moving stories and not what I would expect of someone who was without certainty. The Conference Committee on Literature is in the process of publishing a pamphlet "which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous." This 61st Conference is entertaining a request to reconsider this action. I am very curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these terms. Is it an easy way to talk about "other than Christian" spirituality? Amelia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7314. . . . . . . . . . . . Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics #1 From: intuited . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2011 6:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Rick, I enjoyed your email and wanted to follow up with my current thinking on the conference. Your thoughts were very helpful. Conference Pamphlet. The 61st Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous will address one of the most critical issues of our organization, -- the question of spirituality and the AA premise regarding its nature as it impacts on sobriety. Last year the 60th Conference approved a motion to: "develop literature which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous." The phrase “who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous" has created a fury which has resulted in a request to rescind this motion (Agenda G of the Literature Committee.) AA was founded and is maintained by a set of principles for the individual and the organization that are spiritual in nature. This spirituality requires that each person determine the nature of this spiritual power, greater than herself or himself, through his or her own direct knowledge of that power. This direct experience can be described in a myriad of terms including the power, wisdom, miracles and/or love in the rooms of AA (see The Best of Bill, p. 2). Many of us move from the spirits in the bottles to the spirits in the rooms. One’s perception of this power is never questioned, only one’s surrender to IT. The alcoholic must come to the end of oneself. Spirituality is a result of “working the 12 steps. This 60th conference motion implies several premises that are in violation of our fundamental beliefs. It implies that agnostics and atheists can, without spirituality or the steps, be successfully sober. And it implies that the trustees’ Literature Committee can define this new premise and its success with alcoholism by the selection of certain success stories. It also references a religion, atheism. Yet the U.S courts have ruled on several occasions that atheism is a religion. Our documents make clear that we are not a religion. The Conference has already decided that we will have no literature on religion so this motion is in violation of a previous conference decision. The trustees’ Literature Committee brilliantly sidestepped this dilemma by planning the development of a pamphlet that would have a general introduction and stories from alcoholics sober in AA reflecting a wide range of spiritual experiences. The subcommittee agreed that the target audience for the pamphlet would be the alcoholic newcomer who struggles with the spiritual aspect of the program...and it could be used as a resource for professionals who have questions about the subject. (See February 3, 2011 Agenda Item B, Background Doc. 1, trustees' Literature Committee.) They then issued: Call for Stories Focused on Spirituality In response to the 2010 General Service Conference recommendation the 'the trustees' Committee on Literature develop literature which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous...' the trustee's Literature Committee is seeking stories from AA members. The trustees are looking for stories that reflect a wide range of spiritual experiences from AA members who, with any belief or non-belief, have found a solution to the concept of spirituality and sobriety in Alcoholics Anonymous. Manuscripts should be 500-800 words, double-spaced. Please attach your name and address on a separate piece of paper. The anonymity of all authors will be observed, whether or not their story is selected for publication. Please send sharing, by February 15, 2011 to: Literature Coordinator, General Service Office, Box 459, Grand Central Station, New York, NY 10163, or e-mail: literature@aa.org." Although they temporarily sidestepped this dilemma, this did not satisfy those who requested that the motion be rescinded. Thus it will be taken up within the trustees’ Literature Committee and possibly the floor. From the beginnings of AA atheists and agnostics insisted on adding the phrase, God “as we understand Him.” Our literature has continued to address a broad spectrum of stories related to spirituality, including agnostics and atheists. Are we reading and passing on these resources to the newcomer? The most important question to answer is: “Do we need a pamphlet on spirituality?” 1. The AA Grapevine has several relevant publications, Spiritual Awakenings (2003), Spiritual Awakenings II (2010) and Came to Believe (1973). These documents include an abundance of stories from agnostics and atheists as well as many eastern and other religions and philosophies. The April 2009 issue of the Grapevine is devoted to “Agnostics in Recovery: Coming to Grips with a Higher Power.” Additionally the AA Grapevine produced the CD, "Pathways to Spirituality" (2002) and cassette "Pathways to Spirituality" (1987). They also published Dilemma of No Faith and The Best of Bill by Bill W. Yet these stories are not reflected in a pamphlet. 2. Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. has published several relevant books and pamphlets. The 4th edition of the Alcoholics Anonymous has several stories written by agnostics and atheists and other are in the Experience, Strength, and Hope publication (2003). These stories include all the ones omitted from the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Big Book editions. One pamphlet, “Do You Think You Are Different?” is similar to the new proposed pamphlet, but could be broader in scope. It does include one story from an atheist and one story from an agnostic (pp. 15, 31) but does not address a broad array of other spiritual paths. This pamphlet could be combined with the new proposed pamphlet and re-titled? Several other pamphlets briefly address agnostics and atheists: Frequently Asked Questions about AA, This is AA: An Introduction to the AA Recovery Program, and A Newcomer Asks…. Another pamphlet, “The AA Group: Where It All Begins” could include a question in the Group Inventory on p. 29-30 words in #3 such as: "Are we careful to honor all spiritual paths or do our meetings utilize practices or prayers which favor one religion?” “Are we emphasizing that all spiritual paths are welcome here?” While we have been focusing on the agnostic and atheist issue we have overlooked a much bigger issue, ---a need for a communication of the broader spectrum of spiritual experiences and transformation. Our membership needs literature, sponsors, meetings and 12-step work that describes and honors the incredibly diverse spiritual paths that we utilize to get and stay sober! And a pamphlet would make this much more accessible than our books. On Mar 16, 2011, at 8:03 PM, ricktompkins wrote: This is a clarification to the sharing of what's in intuited (Amelia)'s post about the General Service Conference agenda and her final question. The Conference Literature Committee is planning its discussion toward recommending approval or disapproval on two agenda items: Item B: Review progress report from the trustee's Literature Committee on the development of literature which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous. Item G: Consider a request to reconsider the 2010 Conference Advisory Action that "the trustees Literature Committee develop literature which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous." On one hand, the trustees' Literature Committee is giving a progress report on the feasibility (want vs. need vs. cost) and format (length, type of publishing) of new literature that would most likely be a pamphlet. That's what the 2010 Conference instructed them to develop: the possibilities. On the other hand, item G's reconsideration request is to either recommend Conference approval or disapproval on the "non-religious" spirituality pamphlet which was approved to proceed last year. The deluge of input on item G suggests a lot of constructive ideas have been submitted for the project since last year, on both the pro and con for AAWS to undertake such a new work of literature. In the end, only the Conference Committee on Literature will make the recommendation to the Conference whether to stop or proceed. If the proposed pamphlet proceeds, the 2011 two newly Appointed Committee Members on the Literature Committee will certainly be doing a lot of reading, reviewing submitted work. The AA Grapevine, Inc. has previously published four soft cover books on spirituality without the heavy input of religious faith: two versions of "Came To Believe, " another on "Spirituality" and another called "AA Around the World." The question is, should AAWS, Inc. publish one, too? Give it time, and the AA Grapevine will publish another one on AA spirituality. In my home turf, the current issue of the Chicago Area's "Here's How" has six articles on spirituality and only one of the articles mentions God. And in my group and other meetings, I can understand many who are continually developing their understanding of God, those holding an unshakable belief in the God of the Bible, those who refuse to consider any belief because of past experience, and those who have never been effectively exposed to God-consciousness. Call it the whole gamut of faiths: those who say they know and those still finding out. Anyone can get sober with or without a religious faith. Intuited wrote: I am very curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these terms. Is it an easy way to talk about 'other than Christian' spirituality?" My answer is "yes." It could be one of AA's greatest strengths about "God as we understood Him" to appreciate any member's generic, poorly defined 'Creator' to be called "God" because even that slight belief keeps that member's recovery in focus. Bill W. wrestled with the "God" concept when he first got sober, too. I'm not uneasy when I speak of God with the name "God" when I personally have my own belief and don't feel the need to explain it. One-on-one, it's all right for me to explain when asked, but otherwise in general group sharing it's always come across as a distraction. I've been to many Pentecostal services, seminars, and plenty of AA Open Speaker meetings, and while I love them both their intent and the destinations are very different! Still sober, Rick, Illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7315. . . . . . . . . . . . Third Tradition: Short Form and Long Form From: Joanna . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2011 12:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am writing an article for our Area Newsletter re: the long and short form of the third tradition. I have searched this forum looking for answers - found Arthur S's Part 4 re: how the short form of the Traditions were developed. But I am still not satisfied because I can't find anything that tells me how the short form could possibly have adequately represented the long form. I am glad to know now, that the short forms were not written to fit on the window shade, as has become urban legend in AA, but I am not finding what I am looking for. Can anyone add any information for me on how the short form, when it was first drawn up, was regarded as an adequate summation of the long form? Joanna W. An AA Group Area 10 ______________________________________ TRADITION THREE -- SHORT FORM (12 and 12 page 139) "The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking." TRADITION THREE -- LONG FORM (12 and 12 page 189) "Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation." BIG BOOK -- FOREWORD TO FIRST EDITION (Big Book 4th edit. page xiv) "The only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop drinking." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7316. . . . . . . . . . . . Chuck Chamberlain From: Ryan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2011 2:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello, I am researching Chuck Chamberlain. I was wondering if anyone could provide me with any information other than what I have found in this group already. I know about New Pair of Glasses, various talks, as well as the DVD that Clancy hands out at the Midnight Mission. The DVD is this talk: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=chuck+c+new+pair+of+glasses&aq=f [11] Other than that, I haven't found any other publications or information about Chuck. Does anyone know of any, or have any? I also know that Chuck was an Ordained Minister of Religious Science. I found the October 1962 issue of Science of Mind Magazine, which has an article covering the Chamberlains. There is a good amount of information about Chuck's involvement with Religious Science. In any event, if anyone has any information that I don't have, I would be VERY grateful. I am attempting to put together an archive display to show my sponsees, and to donate to the local District Archives. Love and Service IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7317. . . . . . . . . . . . Grapevine Play: Sybil, Irma Livoni, Frank, Cliff, and Mort From: John Moore . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2011 4:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From John Moore and Jackie Bendzinski - - - - From: John Moore (contact.johnmoore at gmail.com) Great to know these stories are being kept alive, and thanks to all. I enjoyed hearing Sybil speak at my home group in the 1970's and think of her every time we study the Third Tradition and Irma Livoni who was kicked out of AA in 1941. I am sure Frank and Cliff and Mort were doing the best they knew how at the time. Cliff Walker was my sponsor's sponsor. John M South Burlington, Vermont contact.johnmoore@gmail.com - - - - From: Jackie Bendzinski (jackiebendzinski at mac.com) Hi John We poke some fun at Frank's heavy-handedness :) The Los Angeles scene is my favorite in the play and we've expanded it and Cliff's role for our LA performance. The second act of "In Our Own Words" is dedicated to the Third Tradition, but unfortunately it did not work for this play to include Irma's story, though it is personally one of the most powerful and tragic stories I have heard in AA history. I'm researching and (slowly) writing a second documentary style play solely on the history behind each tradition. Irma's story will be in that play. If you email inourownwords.sanantonio@gmail.com, I can email you a pdf of the script. I wish you could be there for our Los Angeles show. If anyone knows Sybil's living sponsees and grand-sponsees in LA, I am very much hoping to get in contact with them and invite them to the play. The LA archivist, Harvey, and Sybil's daughter have already been invited. In fact, Sybil's daughter has seen our recording and was very positive and supportive. Take care, Jackie B San Francisco, California ___________________________________________ ORIGINAL MESSAGE Message #7307 from "jaxena77" (jackiebendzinski at mac.com) Grapevine Play in Los Angeles We are very excited to announce that on Saturday, June 25, 2011, In Our Own Words: Pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous will be performed in Los Angeles County for the very first time. We are especially honored for this opportunity to tell Sybil Corwin's story in her hometown, alongside the stories of Mort Joseph, Cliff Walker, Frank Randall, June G and the many pioneering members of AA in Southern California. The AAHistoryLovers Yahoo Group was vital in the researching and writing of this documentary style play. Our shows in Northern California and Texas have sold out to standing room only audiences for the past two years. Please SAVE THE DATE and spread the word to anyone you know in Southern California. We need your help to PASS IT ON! Forward this message to a friend - http://oi.vresp.com/f2af/v4/send_to_friend.html?ch=0076d7232a&lid=TEST&ldh=T EST In Love and Service, Jackie B. =============================================== FULL COLOR FLYER WITH PHOTOS: http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/771229/0076d7232a/TEST/TEST/ =============================================== IN OUR OWN WORDS: PIONEERS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS Performing for the first time in Los Angeles County! A SPECIAL BENEFIT FOR ICYPAA 2011! Saturday, June 25 at 8 pm The Lincoln Middle School Theater 1501 California Ave, Santa Monica, CA Played to standing room only audiences in San Antonio in 2010, In Our Own Words brings to life the pages of the Big Book, The Grapevine and the recordings of the pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous. Simply, and with great humor and depth, the play retells the stories of our founders in New York, Akron, Cleveland and Los Angeles. Going further into our history, In Our Own Words also shares the lesser-known struggles of the pioneering members of special composition groups in the fellowship, including the first women and young people in AA, as well as early gay, lesbian, African-American and Latino members. Join men and women like Marty Mann, Sybil Corwin, Cliff Walker, Barry Leach, Joe McQuanny, and many more, on their search for a solution and acceptance in the rooms. Their stories, and this play, are not to be missed. Tickets available soon at www.icypaahost.org IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7318. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Proxy or absentee votes at Group conscience meetings From: mikey_portz . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2011 5:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From mikey_portz, gerrynmt, Mike Batty, and Ben Hammond - - - - From: "mikey_portz" (mportz2000 at yahoo.com) 1. LOOK AT THE TRADITIONS Your question is answered in Traditions One and Four. To quote the long form of Tradition Four, "With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups ought to be consulted. And no group .... or individual should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole without conferring with the trustees of the General Service Board. On such issues our common welfare is paramount." 2. IN CASE OF DOUBT, CONTACT THE NEW YORK GSO For all the questions I have ever sent GSO regarding group actions, their basic answer always refers me to Traditions 2 and 4. For solving any questions regarding my home group's actions, policies, guidance, suggestions, the Traditions, the Concepts, etc., I have found the most prudent solution to solving these questions, is to email my "Pacific Region" representative at GSO. She/he replies with a email within a couple of days and it seems all members of my group, or my sponsees, are satisfied with A.A's GSO's answer. Everyone trusts GSO's responses and it seems it stops any of the group's members from being angry or resentful, which sometimes happens when the answer comes from "a friend of mine with a lot of time," "I was told by a oldtimer," or "I heard it in a meeting." - - - - From: "gerrynmt" (traditionsway at yahoo.com) "A service sponsee asked me whether there is any literature relating to proxy or absentee voting at a group conscience meeting." Page S37 in the AA Service manual indicates that while each group decides for itself, it is not commonly practiced. - - - - From: Mike Batty (mcbat.t at rogers.com) My observation based on many years of group and district service. Oftentimes a vote takes place at group level based on a prior meeting's discussion and suitable discernment period, therefore I see no reason why group members may not cast their vote in proxy if unable to attend. Similarly a member could stand for an office of the group the night of nominations and/or voting, be they not present. I would say in both occasions such notification should be in writing and delivered by the proxy. I am sure this is keeping with Roberts Rules of Order which business are best advised to follow taking into consideration the necessary majorities called for in the AA service manual. Remember just because it is AA there is no reason to disregard common sense ;) Mike Batty Waterloo, Ontario - - - - From: Ben Hammond (mlb9292 at gmail.com) I agree with you, must be present to vote. Keep up the good work ... God Bless, Old Ben from Tulsa IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7319. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition From: mikey_portz . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2011 4:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I agree with Chuck P. that the Big Book is "the most definitive book EVER written on alcoholism." Without question it is also most certainly as literal as any book I have ever read. I am not certain why Bill chose to use the words "illness," malady, or "sickness" instead of disease, but I can give you, as a long time aficionado of A.A. and Bill Wilson history " an educated guess as to why Bill (or if you prefer "the authors") were "specifically avoiding that term and for good reason." The book was being written to "sell" (the word used by the original 35-40 total number of "Oxford Group drunk squad" members who in the late fall of 1937, agreed the Book should be written) to the "millions" of suffering alcoholics in this country and eventually, the rest of the world. Because of this, and because they expected the book to be read by thousands of non-alcoholics as well as many influential members of the medical profession, they did not want to create any type of controversy (avoidance of controversy has always been, and still is, something which our society has tried to avoid with complete abandon) nor offend with who resisted alcoholism being called a disease. Most people in the 30's, and deep into the 1970's, did not like to admit or consider that alcoholism is/might be a disease. It was considered nothing but weak will power, laziness, lack of morals, etc., etc. The reasons the pioneer alcoholics wanted the book and the program to "sell" were simply and totally altruistic. No one, including Bill W, was in it for the money. The primary reason they wanted it to sell and succeed was to give alkies a "way out, for which there was none at the time nor in the history of our planet. At least no way that anyone could consistently count on. If the book was not well received, A.A. might, quite possibly, ceased to exist. I would also like to give the definition of "malady" which I will again take from my 1938 dictionary. It is, "a disease or disorder of body or mind." From the same dictionary, "illness" is defined simply and solely as "sickness." Merriam-Webster defines "sickness" as; n. 1 : ill health; also; a specific disease 2. : NAUSEA. So to me it is what it is and that is that disease, illness, sickness, and malady are all synonymous. By the way I found the Nausea definition for sickness to be "right up my alley" as it is exactly how alcohol affected me towards the end of the evening (or before) on may occasions. FYI, in the first 164 pages the word "illness" is used 12 times (three on page 18), "malady" 8 times and "sickness" 1 time. The word "Disease" (to the best of my knowledge) is only used once in the first 164. It can be found on page #64 but its usage is related to "resentments," not the disease of alcoholism. "From it stem all forms of spiritual disease." For a more clear as well as precise answer to Chuck's question, as well as any question regarding the writing of the "Big Book", A.A. History, The "Traditions," etc., I would like to suggest emailing The GSO office, Archives Department, in New York to New York. Answering questions for A.A.'s is one of the primary services that GSO provides and they are some of the nicest and most accommodating people I've ever run into. I do have one question for Chuck P., that may help to answer his original question. It is, why did Bill Wilson Dr. Bob, The American Medical Association, all of the other pioneering A.A.'s, Dr. Henry Tiebout, Dr. William D. Silkworth, etc., etc. etc. always refer to alcoholism as a disease. Because these stalwarts and founders of our program, declarations by the AMA and other A.A. proponents referred to alcoholism as a disease, is probably the main reason the rest of us do. And, many of us through research of the disease concept, have come to believe it as the truth. Right or wrong, I think for me referring to my alcoholism as a disease, definitely helps me to understand my malady and help keep me living the steps so that I can keep my alcoholism in remission. Just like cancer, it will kill me. I have no problem calling it a disease. If I did, I probably would be a little less happy, joyous and free. Kind regards in fellowship - - - - "Chuck Parkhurst" ineedpage63@...> wrote: Why would the authors of the most definitive book EVER written on alcoholism REPEATEDLY refer to the condition we suffer from as an "illness" if they meant "disease?" In many areas of our book, we see the authors repeatedly use synonyms and similar phrases to make the same point over and over. However, when the authors use this same device regarding the alcoholic illness, they do NOT use disease and prefer a term like malady. I believe that the fact disease is conspicuous by its absence in similar circumstances confirms that the authors were specifically avoiding that term and for good reason. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7320. . . . . . . . . . . . First women to take AA meetings into correctional facilities From: janie100570@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2011 3:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am looking for information on the first women to take AA meetings into (women's) correctional facilities. Any data any member of the HistoryLovers can provide would be much appreciated. Thank you -- Jane S L IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7321. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: First women to take AA meetings into correctional facilities From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2011 9:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I heard a talk by Jack P. where he talked about how he and Wynn L. began taking meetings into the LA County jail and that it was not looked upon favorably by other members of AA. This would have been late 1940's or very early 1950's. There is also documentation of Betty Thom doing a lot of work with jails and prisons. She corresponded with a many prison based groups and contributed to their newsletters. Chris B. Raleigh, North Carolina IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7322. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Chuck Chamberlain From: Susan Banker . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2011 6:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Susan Banker and Jared Lobdell - - - - From: Susan Banker in New York City (sbanker914 at aol.com) Hello Ryan, This is one interesting item that I found online: Chuck C.'s Testimony Before a U.S. Senate Subcommittee http://silkworth.net/aahistory/chuckc1969.html ************************************ Re-printed with permission by Nancy Olson, moderator of The AA History Lovers e-group. Nancy's book "With a Lot of Help from Our Friends" is the major study of the passing of the Hughes Act -- it was the Hughes Act, NOT Prohibition, which was the most important piece of alcoholism legislation in 20th century U.S. history. The Hughes Act still provides the basis for modern U.S. alcoholism treatment centers. ************************************ Nancy Olson says: Chuck C., a well-known early AA member in California, testified before the Alcoholism and Drug Abuse Subcommittee in Los Angeles on Saturday, September 27, 1969. This is his testimony which I have copied from the official hearing records: Present: Senators Hughes, (presiding), Dominick, and Saxbe [members of the Subcommittee]. Also present: Senators Cranston and Murphy [both Senators from California]. THEN NANCY GAVE THE TEXT OF CHUCK'S SPEECH TO THE SENATE SUBCOMMITTEE Nancy concluded by noting that others have sent the following information on Chuck C.: He was born in 1902, and got sober in A.A. in January 1946. He wrote a book called "A New Pair Of Glasses" which is a transcript of a retreat he gave for alcoholics in 1975. The Preface is written by Clancy I. of California. It can be purchased through New-Look Publishing Co., 1960 Fairchild, Irvine, CA 92715. His son [Richard] became a famous actor. Chuck died in 1984. - - - - From: "J. Lobdell" (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) His son, the actor [George] Richard Chamberlain, is still alive and active at 77 -- perhaps you could talk to him. I don't recall if his autobiography Shattered Love (2009) has anything on his father. The well-known AA speaker Johnnie H (Long Beach) has pretty detailed recollections of Chuck (who indeed came up several times in a conversation we had at breakfast last month). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7323. . . . . . . . . . . . Charlie of JOE AND CHARLIE passed away last night From: WendiT . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/21/2011 12:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Charlie P. A man passed away last night that has carried a message to hundreds of thousands of us all over the world. He was a great messenger, a tireless servant, and a dear dear friend. He carried the message of the Big Book and keep it alive in a time when most of our fellowship had lost touch with our basic principles - your effect has been felt - your footprint has been left - and I thank you Charlie. Charlie P, along with Joe McQ and in later years Joe McC, traveled the world for over 35 years starting fires of enthusiasm for our basic text. -- Bob D. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7324. . . . . . . . . . . . Charlie P. funeral Tuesday April 26, 2011 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2011 3:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mt Hermon Church 18035 E 420 Rd, Jay, Oklahoma 74346-3500 phone (918) 253-4111 Message #37490 from: "A Change Will Do You Good" Yahoo group http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/achangewilldoyougood/message/37490 Just got a call from Barbara Parmley .... Charlie died last night of a heart attack. Charlie turned 82 years old on the 8th of April. They lived in Maysville, Arkansas. The funeral will be at Mt. Hermon Church in Jay, Oklahoma on Tuesday from 2-4 pm. There will also be a viewing on Monday night. In lieu of flowers, memorials in his name can be sent to The House of Hope.** Charlie and Joe McQuany started the Big Book Studies in the early 70's, traveling the world carrying the AA Big Book Message. Love and may your God go with you, Ian S. ______________________________________ From G.C. the moderator: Ian said the House of Hope was in Jay, Oklahoma, and that they had a website at www.houseofhope.com I couldn't find that. The closest I could find to that name and location was http://houseofhopegrove.com/ in Grove, Oklahoma. The three towns (Maysville, Arkansas -- Jay, Oklahoma -- Grove, Oklahoma) are all just a few miles apart. But I recommend checking though before sending any donations to the one in Grove, just to make sure it is the right one. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7325. . . . . . . . . . . . Death of Charlie P of the Joe and Charlie tapes From: Dolores . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/21/2011 4:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII [From Rob Fuhrman, Dolores, Bent Christensen, Cindy Miller, Stephen Macchia, and anne marie.] Charlie Parmley from Maysville, Arkansas, along with Joe McQuany and in later years Joe McCoy, traveled the world for over 35 years starting fires of enthusiasm for our basic text. ______________________________ From: Rob Fuhrman (stepnazi at yahoo.com) Had a heart attack on the way home from a meeting. Carried the message all the way to the end of his life. True love and service. ______________________________ From: "Dolores" (dolli at dr-rinecker.de) Dear Bob, I am so sorry to hear that Charlie has passed away. I met him twice at Big Book studies in Nurnburg Germany. The first time he was there was in 1989 and Frank Mauser from the GSO Archives was along and Travers from Bristol. Unforgettable. Charlie and Joe both did such a good job of making clear how important it is to get the message from the Big Book. Thanks for letting me and us know. Yours in AA, Dolores ______________________________ From: "bent_christensen5" (bent_christensen5 at yahoo.com) God bless his soul and let us all keep caring the message in the same spirit as they did. Charlie changed my life and I 'm very grateful for the work he and Joe did for AA. If you hear anything regarding funeral or memorial, please let me know. We are not that well informed here in Denmark. Bent Christensen Valmuevej 17 6000 Kolding Tlf. +45 50 12 17 43 www.synlighjemmeside.dk ______________________________ From: Cindy Miller (cm53 at earthlink.net) I am absolutely stunned and saddened. Charlie seems like an old friend who comes to my home every Friday night when I gather with a bunch of newcomers, and we listen to the "Joe & Charlie" seminars. There is a meeting near here that uses these tapes in their format -- kind of like an AA Speaker. Another speaker/chairperson for that Big Meeting in the Sky .... :-( Cindy Miller ______________________________ From: Stephen Macchia (joe_zip at sbcglobal.net) I got sober in a Joe and Charlie study nearly 25 years ago, and we are still listening to the original set of tapes. To say they helped me to get sober would be to understate the case. They will both now be missed, but they still carry the message, at least they will on Monday nights in Southern California. -- Steve ______________________________ From: "anne marie" (tim1leg at yahoo.com) Thank you, for letting us know. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7326. . . . . . . . . . . . Personal memories of Charlie P. From: Sherry C. Hartsell . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2011 12:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Wonderful memories of a close AA relationship in both our young Service yrs in Arkansas ---- personal sadness at his loss, sad for his family and the fellowship, Charley P and Wayne P were all officers in the Arkansas Assembly together, that Assembly became my Home Group for all intents and purposes even though I had a wonderful HOME AA Group in Magnolia, Ark, where I was privileged to operate from into the State AREA (We had only ONE AREA and it was called the Arkansas State Assembly --- we caught some flack from our neighbors in NETA until they came to understand that Ark was not in need of division into multiple AREAS as was our neighbor Texas. Charley P. and Wayne P. shared the same Sponsor, Neil, who had been a Delegate and was intent upon his sponsees being exposed to the fullness of AA Service; we each served our terms on most of the Standing Committees and Offices within the Assembly --- were hauled to or encouraged to attend any Service function within a 3-4 State Area---and we mostly did attend/participate where appropriate most all he encouraged us to attend. I was the Assembly Chair for two terms and was responsible for researching and with another member from Ft Smith who could type really well, responsible for putting together the first set of "Policies and Procedures" for The Arkansas Assembly. Shortly thereafter I was tasked with inviting David A. of Dallas to come up to Little Rock and present a talk on the "Legacies" --- David stayed over the week-end, I had a Brand-New 9 passenger Chevrolet Station Wagon that got drafted into service to and from meetings, hotel, and restaurants ---- we had a blast and it was the beginning of some long lasting relationships in A.A. David got hold of our new Policies & Procedures, was impressed, said NETA was trying to come up with P&P for their Area, could he borrow a set of the Ark P&P to take back and use as a pattern for developing a set for NETA. Of course we loaned them to him and he latter shared with me that our document was only amended to fit their local circumstances ------ which is what I had mostly done by traveling to and getting P&P from Mississippi, Oklahoma, and Louisiana, then taking ideas from each and making that document fit our situation in Arkansas. In 1986 or 7, I was buying oil & gas Leases in North Dakota with a sponsee from Tyler, Texas named TOM, well, Tom had been tasked to get me to invite the Speakers for that years TYLER ANNIVERSARY --- I called Jim from The Glass House Group in Ft Worth, then Joe McQ in Little Rock, Arkansas. Joe McQ at first refused by saying quite frankly, "SHERRY! I can't come speak in Tyler, Texas. Them folks got the KLAN in Tyler!", and he was indeed serious. So, from North Dakota, I called my wife Beverly back in Arkansas and told her she must call Joe's wife, Lou Belle, and convince her to convince Joe, to promise that we would drive down with them and stay in the same hotel, share a room if she would feel better about it. I called Joe back, he agreed under the condition that I ask Charley P to come and introduce him, and that he could bring "some of his boys" from the treatment center he ran in Little Rock. The Tyler Committee for the most part were unaware that Joe McQ was a black man, I believe it was his first experience speaking outside the State of Arkansas. There were perhaps 1500 at that Anniversary most of whom had never heard of Joe McQ or Charley P. The results were that within a yr of that talk, Joe McQ was booked up solid FIVE YEARS in advance and within a short time after that, "Joe & Charley Big Book Talks" were spread literally world-wide. Charley P was my friend, my brother in the Fellowship and in It's Service --- I am so grateful God placed Charley P, Wayne P., AND Joe McQ in my path, my sobriety is better for having had that association. Sherry C.H. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7327. . . . . . . . . . . . Charlie P -- full details of funeral arrangements From: hdmozart . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2011 5:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From the Worley-Luginbuel Funeral Home - Jay, Oklahoma General Information Full Name: Charles A Parmley Date of Birth: Friday April 8th 1921 Date of Death: Thursday April 21st 2011 First Visitation When: Monday April 25th 2011 6:00pm - 8:00pm Location: Worley-Luginbuel Funeral Home - Jay 1600 S Main St Jay, Oklahoma Service Information When: Tuesday April 26th 2011 2:00pm Location: Mt. Hermon Church 68035 E 420 Rd Jay, Oklahoma Interment Information Location: Maysville Cemetery Hwy 43 Maysville, Arkansas Donations in lieu of flowers to be sent in Memory of Charlie Parmley to: House of Hope Inc, PO Box 451585 Grove, OK 74345 918-786-2930 Or donations may be made online at: http://houseofhopegrove.com Obituary and more information: http://luginbuelfuneralhome.frontrunnerpro.com/runtime/3060/runtime.php?Site Id=3\ 060&NavigatorId=54126&viewOpt=dpaneOnly&ItemId=723627&op=tributeMemorialCand les [12] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7328. . . . . . . . . . . . Memorial book for Charlie P of the Joe and Charlie tapes From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2011 4:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Doug B at AAHISTORY.COM has set up a memorial book for Charlie P if anyone would like to leave their thoughts and prayers. Here is a link: http://www.aahistory.com/charliep/sign.php Being a poor reader, Joe and Charlie helped me understand what I was reading in a way that no one else could. I honestly do not think I would be where I am in my recovery without them. Miss you Charlie Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7329. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe McC of the Joe and Charlie tapes From: DouglasBlackburn@bellsouth.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2011 4:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is Joe McCoy still alive? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7331. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe McC is alive and well From: DONALD BENNITT . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2011 11:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Joe McCoy of the Joe and Charlie tapes is alive and well. (from Don Bennitt and Jim Hoffman) - - - - From: DONALD BENNITT (dbennitt at sbcglobal.net) I talked with Joe Mc on Thursday. It is Joe Mc Q -- the other Joe -- that has passed. Don - - - - From: "Jim Hoffman" (jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com) The statement that Joe McCoy is also dead is totally incorrect information. Joe McCoy was alive and well on Wednesday April 20, 2011. ________________________________ From: Aldo Sent: April 23, 2011 Subject: Re: Joe McC of the Joe and Charlie tapes Sadly, Joe Mc has passed away also. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7332. . . . . . . . . . . . We need a good history of Charlie and the two Joes From: RacewayJay . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2011 5:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII When did Charlie get sober? What about the two Joes? When did they get sober? Is there any good history on them already written? If not, would someone be willing to write a good, detailed historical account? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7333. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe McQ of the Joe and Charlie tapes From: Patricia . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2011 5:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Joe McQuany died October 25, 2007 (from pdixonrae, Charley Bill, and Dave T.) - - - - From Patricia (pdixonrae at yahoo.com) Charlie's partner Joe McQuany died in October 2007. The following was his funeral announcemnt. Patricia - - - - FUNERAL ANNOUNCEMENT Joe McQuany (November 16, 1928 - October 25, 2007) From the Kelly Foundation website: http://www.kellyfdn.com/condolences_in_memory_of_joe_mcq.htm Wake and Viewing: Wednesday October 31, 9 A.M. - 9 P.M., at the Wolfe Street Center, 1210 Wolfe Street, Little Rock, AR 72202 Phone (501) 372-5662 http://www.wolfestreet.org/ Family Visitation: Wednesday October 31 at the Wolfe Street Center 6 P.M. - 7 P.M. The Funeral will be held on Thursday November 1, 2007 - 11 A.M. - Pulaski Heights United Methodist Church, 4823 Woodlawn Avenue, Little Rock, Arkansas 72205 http://www.phumc.com/where.htm - - - - From: Charley Bill (charley92845 at gmail.com) The original Joe went by the name of Joe McQ and was the founder and proprietor of a very large rehab in Little Rock. He died October 25, 2007. Here is a photo, a very good one as I remember Joe from 10 years ago. Here's a link to his memorial page: http://www.aahistory.com/joemcq/sign.php - - - - Also from: Dave T. in Connecticut (bluefox at dublin.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7334. . . . . . . . . . . . Carl Jung - spiritual vs. religious, and syncronicity From: Paul . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2011 12:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Since I've read everything (I think) "AA history" that sold over 10K copies, I think, and even a few that sold less, I'm on page 1 (first of the text proper - page 6) of Robert Stonebraker's book, "A Pre-AA History Book, A Study of Synchronic Events." CARL JUNG: SPIRITUAL vs. RELIGIOUS A question (now scanning a few pages ahead) pertains to the figure containing Carl Jung's use of the expression(s) "real religious insight" and "highest religious experience" interchangeably, it would appear, with the sort of event or experience (or "education/evolution"), spiritual in nature, that the vexed alcoholic might/must seek. Subsequently, on that page of text, you cite: "Since Rowland was a typical alcoholic, however, it took him seven more years of denial and misery -- as he continued to refuse to take Jung's prescription seriously -- before he met Courtenay Baylor from the Emmanuel Movement and began seeking a spiritual solution for his alcoholism.." adding that, "Jung ended up telling Rowland that he had never seen alcoholics of his type recover until they became willing to commit themselves to the spiritual life." We also have "You recommended that he place himself in a religious atmosphere and hope for the best. This I believe was the substance of your advice," in the letter from Bill W. for Jung. Those familiar with AA history likely regard the spiritual VS religious "discrepancy" as old hat, or splitting hairs, or both. "Resign from the debating society" is a common invective. The irony, if there is any, is the veritable insistence, or zeal, that "I'm spiritual but not religious," about which many AA's are adamant. Since noted physicist Wolfgang Pauli collaborated with Jung, it (spiritual VS religious) may just be an example of the "Principle of Complimentarity," whereby when "looking" for the wave-like features of electromagnetic radiation (visible light for instance) or the particle-like features (photons), science detects either - but never both simultaneously. Anyhow, historically speaking - if that's the terminology - at some point in history it doesn't seem to have mattered much, unless "organized religion" is connoted to mean "religion." That might not mean anything. Except for the fact that Jung's causal principle may be in question, especially if (his own) "verification technique" or "evidence" has much to do. CARL JUNG: SYNCHRONICITY Regarding Synchronicity — An Acausal Connecting Principle (which I confess to reading about 60 pages of at Barnes & Noble roughly a decade ago) wikipedia.org portends that it "was a principle that Jung felt gave conclusive evidence for his concepts of archetypes and the collective unconscious ". Enter Richard Noll. Again, from wikipedia: "In 1994 he [Noll] received an award for Best Book in Psychology from the Association of American Publishers for his book, The Jung Cult: Origins of a Charismatic Movement. The resulting controversy over the book made front-page headlines worldwide, including a front-page report in the 3 June 1995 issue of The New York Times . Princeton University Press submitted The Jung Cult to the Pulitzer Prize competition that year, without success. Although not a definitivetreatment of Jung, the book acted as a climacteric, effectively changing the agenda of scholarly debate in Jung studies for the more than a decade that has followed its publication" [Bold added.] I read Noll's book(s) more carefully. Among other things, what the former Harvard Professor has effectively done is made a conclusive case that Jung's clinical "evidence" for archetypes en toto was essentially flubbed, and if that weren't enough, that Jung's later book(s) intentionally disguised/suppressed the fairly blatant fudge factors. It's that simple. No one, to my knowledge, has proven, or even attempted to prove Noll's scholarly research "wrong." The Jung estate essentially "closed the vaults" to further research as a result. Their subsequent publication of Jung's Red Book seems to have been a red herring. The 400 pound gorilla hasn't moved an inch: Noll has apparently already let every bit of the cat out of the bag. I'm not saying that Jung was a liar. Noll "exposes" Jung, in many respects, to the best of his (or anyone's?) "historical ability" for what he was as a charismatic and expresses his admiration for Jung's unique genius. I honestly have no idea of the validity of synchronicity. I strongly suspect there's something inherent in the human imagination that predisposes us towards these types of theories. There's the old "nothing happens by accident" or "I don't believe in coincidences" axiom(s). What is really synchronous? comes to mind. I don't think Bill W. gave Carl Jung a tip of his hat out of coincidence. I don't think JD Rockefeller paid Bill Wilson's salary (at least for a time) purely out of coincidence. I don't think Bill and Lois Wilson were married in the Swedenborg Church purely out of coincidence. I don't think Aldous Huxley called Bill Wilson "The greatest social architect of our time" purely out of coincidence; maybe I don't believe in coincidences, either. Wilson appears to have been extremely ingenious and resourceful and especially driven in the goal, his goal, of attaining permanent sobriety. I think it would be worth considering the synchronous nature of the spiritual milieu (means religious atmosphere) circa 1925 - or even 1921 because of the end of the war - 1935 - and perhaps up to about 1941. Just like I haven't any strong "pro" or "contra" feeling towards AA (on an individual basis) I haven't any towards Jung's synchronicity. "To each his own," or "attraction rather than promotion," suits me fine, and it would appear the AA "concept" (fellowship) has helped many, and the synchronicity concept may have as well. My own personal opinion is that any serious student of AA (or rather more precisely Bill W.) "history" (since I'm no historian) might go back so far as Madame Blavatsky or even Emanuel Swedenborg and Böhme. About all that survives in common parlance is the "bohemian lifestyle" that Bill and Lois were so fond of in their married youth. I think the Bill W. biographers call it "a rustic or nomadic lifestyle." Put differently: as we already know, Bill Wilson said, "I've always considered myself a shopper at the spiritual pie counter." (Grapevine, LOH, or Ernie Kurtz, I can't recall.) For sure Carl Jung was baking some very serious cakes; a whole generation were eating them up like candy, and a whole new generation still would, maybe even more so. Having taken the time to examine the Pre-AA History Book 1926-35 book (booklet) and considering its concept, I admire the courage to compose it. Therefore I find it interesting. Having glanced at them, what I'd like now is a premise to read the remaining 27 pages, carefully, as I haven't, rather than simply scanning them to discover an (alternative) premise. That would be work. My question, then, to it's author, may be blunt, and I hope that there's no disrespect on my part: why the exemption of the term "religious?" I don't consider the question "pointed" or "probative," but I won't accept the pat answer(s) "we have no leaders" (as religions do) because "our leaders are but trusted servants," or, "AA hasn't any anathema to religion" beings "many of us return to the religions of our youth," because the language is what I'm asking about. Aside from that, J. Gordon Melton has remarked that "AA may be the only successful example of pure anarchy yet in existence." wikipedia.org: J. Gordon Melton of the University of California, Santa Barbara, Distinguished Senior Fellow at Baylor University 's Institute for Studies of Religion [who has appeared on national TV]. His Encyclopedia of American Religions, which was originally published in 1978, has become a standard work of reference that outstrips the number of groups that Clark was able to identify and classify in the 1940s.) No matter Stonebraker - congratulations on your diligence, and I applaud the obvious considerable effort. "Mapping the territory" is important. Best, Paul IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7335. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics From: Dougbert . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/15/2011 6:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Dougbert and Bailey, plus Gerard vs. Amelia - - - - From: Dougbert (dougbert8 at yahoo.com) Can anybody give me a list of the stories in the Grapevine written by atheists? We need to share the message if we are to perform our 12 step work. I am a godless alcoholic. I believe I can do my best service to the fellowship by letting newcomers know that you CAN get and stay sober without GOD. This is my 12 step calling. All the information from GSO will not save lives if the only messages that are allowed through are those from one or another narrow doctrinal religious perspective. How many newcomers leave the rooms because they are not God worshipers? In fellowship, Doug - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) Bill W said there was freedom of thought and action in AA. Why are we trying to destroy freedom of thought and action? The conference has no authority to order the groups around. As funny as it may sound now, The eleventh step prayer in AA comes of age, says, "For it is by self forgetting that one finds." I do not think what groups think about spirituality has anything to do with spirituality. - - - - From: "Gerard" (GRault at yahoo.com) This thought, quoted from Amelia's message below,*** "This 60th conference motion implies several premises that are in violation of our fundamental beliefs. IT IMPLIES THAT AGNOSTICS AND ATHEISTS CAN, WITHOUT SPIRITUALITY OR THE STEPS, BE SUCCESSFULLY SOBER." -- this thought seems to me to be clearly erroneous. It takes as an implicit given that there can be no spirituality without a belief in the existence of "God," a proposition that would astonish much of the world's population -- Buddhists, for example. It further assumes that to work the steps requires a belief in the existence of THE WRITER'S traditionalist concept of "God." On the contrary, the beauty of the phrase "as we understood Him" (the only italicized words in the steps) is that each of us can interpret the Power in accord with our own beliefs. Many believe that the traditional notion of "God" does not really exist, and understand that the word is simply a metaphor or symbol of the indefinable and unknown Power which is the source of all that exists, especially love, beauty, truth, justice, compassion and similar qualities. Who can rightly presume to tell them that that "understanding" of "God" is officially incorrect in A.A.? Love and tolerance, Gerry New Orleans, Louisiana Hua Hin, Thailand ____________________________________________ *** Original message #7314 from Amelia (intuited at earthlink.net) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7314 Rick, I enjoyed your email and wanted to follow up with my current thinking on the conference. Your thoughts were very helpful .... Last year the 60th Conference approved a motion to: "develop literature which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous" .... This 60th conference motion implies several premises that are in violation of our fundamental beliefs. It implies that agnostics and atheists can, without spirituality or the steps, be successfully sober .... AA was founded and is maintained by a set of principles for the individual and the organization that are spiritual in nature. This spirituality requires that each person determine the nature of this spiritual power, greater than herself or himself, through his or her own direct knowledge of that power. This direct experience can be described in a myriad of terms including the power, wisdom, miracles and/or love in the rooms of AA (see The Best of Bill, p. 2) .... IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7336. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Third Tradition: Short Form and Long Form From: Charley Bill . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2011 3:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Joanna, The same guy wrote both the long and the short forms. If this is true, the author must have felt the short was a proper representation of the long. This author also put them in the 12 and 12, which has some words on why we have a short form. The guy was a fellow by name of Bill "Hole in Shoe" Wilson, and you should know that his words are positively divinely ordained and one must dare not mention the possibility of a change or that there is anything amiss with them. That's heresy. They're perfect, just as they are. Just ask any old timer. Only partially in jest, Charley B. ______________________________________ On 4/18/2011 9:29 AM, Joanna wrote: > > I am writing an article for our Area Newsletter re: the long and short > form of the third tradition. I have searched this forum looking for > answers - found Arthur S's Part 4 re: how the short form of the > Traditions were developed. > > But I am still not satisfied because I can't find anything that tells > me how the short form could possibly have adequately represented the > long form. > > I am glad to know now, that the short forms were not written to fit on > the window shade, as has become urban legend in AA, but I am not > finding what I am looking for. > > Can anyone add any information for me on how the short form, when it > was first drawn up, was regarded as an adequate summation of the long > form? > > Joanna W. > An AA Group > Area 10 > ______________________________________ > > TRADITION THREE -- SHORT FORM > (12 and 12 page 139) > "The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking." > > TRADITION THREE -- LONG FORM > (12 and 12 page 189) > "Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence > we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever > depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered > together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided > that, as a group, they have no other affiliation." > > BIG BOOK -- FOREWORD TO FIRST EDITION > (Big Book 4th edit. page xiv) > "The only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop > drinking." > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7337. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Chuck Chamberlain From: Charley Bill . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2011 4:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ryan, check with someone at the Canyon Club in Laguna Beach, California. Chuck is said to have built it and donated it to the Laguna AAs. It is far above any and all 'AA' facilities I have seen in my 41 years of travels in and out of sobriety. Good Luck and I think you will find someone there who can tell you loads about Chuck. I just knew him scantly, but knew both his drivers and one of his would-be biographers(now dead). There is a branch of the Orange County Central office in Laguna and I bet they have loads of stuff on Chuck, too. A little group I belong to studied A New Pair of Glasses a year or two ago and we were not impressed. I remember him as a great orator, but did not know much about the content of his speeches as I was new at the time. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7338. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2011 6:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Jared Lobdell and Glenn Chesnut - - - - From" "J. Lobdell" (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) Richard Peabody seems to have tried to bring about sobriety through surrender without having anything or anyone in particular to surrender to -- with dubious results. Carl Jung's views were certainly focused on the spiritual (as were William James's) without accepting the ordinary interpretations of the word "religious" (remember Jung's spiritus contra spiritum). It is certainly possible, by definition, for an agnostic (as that word is normally understood) to have a spiritual experience, or an experience of the numinous,** or of the holy** (as those words are normally understood): he or she could even go on having them, and remain agnostic about how they came. If Atheist means simply someone who does not believe in the God of any particular "religion" I suspect the same is true there. If Atheist means someone who does not believe in the mystical, the numinous,** the spiritual (however defined), the holy,** then while there is no doubt logically that such persons can have a mystical experience, spiritual experience, even an experience of the numinous,** it's not entirely sure how they will deal with it successfully as part of their recovery if they don't believe it can have taken place. The "Atheist" Jim B. (sober 1938 to death in 1974 -- "The Vicious Cycle") seems to have had such an experience, reading a passage in a Gideon Bible to the effect that the kingdom of god is within you -- but he then went on to preach the insight from that experience. At one point Bill says that -- was it Hindu or Buddhist priests? -- these priests simply would have substituted "Good" for "God" -- but while I suspect that is encouraging for A.A. in a considerably non-Christian world, I suppose no one would claim that Hindus or Buddhists are Atheists -- however much the Hindus in particular might be polytheists. But how will any arms of AA decide the spiritual value of the experiences and beliefs of those with different, unorthodox, or (not perhaps the best choice of word) Atheistic spiritualities? In any case, there's some strength to the view that matters of religion are outside issues. I don't say work shouldn't be done on this -- personally I think it should -- but in Conference-approved literature? The "spiritual"/"religious" distinction is not unlike the "religious/Gospel" temperance distinction of Washingtonian days -- and it confused people then. As with much history, he who runs may read -- and beyond this, I'm not sure this is truly an AAHL issue. - - - - **THE HOLY, THE NUMINOUS, COSMIC CONSCIOUSNESS From: Glenn C. (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) See the discussion between the great scientist Albert Einstein on cosmic religious feeling and the great theologian Paul Tillich (a colleague of Reinhold Niebuhr at Union Theological Seminary) on the holy and the numinous: http://hindsfoot.org/pers2.pdf -- pp. 69-86 See the formative book by Richard Maurice Bucke, "Cosmic Consciousness: A Study in the Evolution of the Human Mind." MEL BARGER Also see Mel B's article on Cosmic Consciousness and Bill W. in the May 1976 Grapevine at http://silkworth.net/melb/cosmic.html Also Mel B's book "My Search for Bill W.," page 24: <> THE GREAT GERMAN PHILOSOPHER AND THEOLOGIAN RUDOLF OTTO on the holy and the numinous: http://hindsfoot.org/g04sacr.pdf http://hindsfoot.org/g05myst.pdf As Mel B. has noted, it is necessary to read about Bucke and William James (and also, as I would point out, Rudolf Otto, Albert Einstein, and Paul Tillich) in order to understand the thought context in which the Big Book was written. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7339. . . . . . . . . . . . Travis - Language of the Heart - Traditionalist AA vs. GSO AA From: From: "Paul . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/26/2011 2:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII TRYSH TRAVIS: Language of the Heart (University of North Carolina Press, 2009) from: "Paul" (spectrumptg at yahoo.com) _____________________________________________ TRYSH TRAVIS: "TRADITIONALIST AA" vs. "RECOVERY-INFUSED POPULAR CULTURE" Trysh Travis' Language of the Heart is worthy if just for this: "Traditionalist AA" along with "recovery-infused popular culture," although inadequate, are good attempts at topographic constructs, even though they're (provisionally) 2D. I think that (an) AA history can be adequately mapped, and should be mapped globally, with certain marginal restrictions, as E. Kurtz has attempted, rather nobly, placing it in the context of the history of religious ideas, as it must, up to and including the present cultic milieu. If you ask me, which you didn't, the dynamics of (a cultural) history are what makes for interest, and I suppose synchronicity is a kind of guidepost, tho in-and-of-itself synchronicity is somewhat static. I hope nobody takes offense at overstating the obvious, and I think the premise(s) of this forum make(s) it clear, that the perspective that AA is not a "thing," but rather an "entity" or more properly a fellowship, where fellowship is more often a verb, and "greater than the sum of its parts"; or that AA is a "fluid collection of fellows (guys and gals) and fellowships that can never be apprised as a monolithic entity" is one of the preferred historical perspectives. On that count, I think that the ("constituent") Pre-AA History Book 1926-35 should prove valuable to most anybody curious about AA history in the broad sense. I'm especially interested in the recent Roland Hazard report and know I'll examine at least that segment carefully. I believe E. Kurtz called into question Roland's stay in Vienna; I also remember seeing somewhere more recent research into Jung's relation to Hazard as physician. "Some of my colleagues in religious studies have complained of a sense of boredom. They tell me that nothing new has been said in their sub-discipline in recent years, even recent decades. We in New Religions Studies have no such problem. We have a monstrous landscape of unploughed pasture and new land coming into view with each acre that is cultivated. We can be secure in one fact, we will not run out of topics for our research in the lifetime of any of us here." (The Rise of the Study of New Religions, 1999) -J. Gordon Melton Whether one likes it or not, I believe that AA (now as a phenomenon or movement) has shaped and is still shaping the "monstrous landscape of unploughed pasture" Melton speaks about. Has ANYONE made a thorough scholarly study of AA vernacular? Haven't academics effectively restricted themselves to print culture? Even Kurtz' book ignores "There is a God and you're not him!" from which, it could be casually contended, even his very book title Not-God might derive. Surely I'm not the first to notice? Ernie, they actually SAY that in meetings: "There is a God, and you're not him!" {Not you, Ernie, they mean "you" in the second person singular, Lol!} _____________________________________________ TRYSH TRAVIS: "TRADITIONALIST AA" vs. "GSO AA" PS: I've been wanting to "jump in" since I saw Trysh Travis' relatively new book was featured here by Glenn Chesnut. This seemed the place to do so. In primary terms, a semi-incomplete quasi-static view of AA (already) exists. So far, it's essentially a linear algebra (of multiple trajectories - "Traditionalist" and "GSO" for lack of better delineation). My estimate is that a so-called tensor analysis (matrix entries are vector rather than scalor) where "relativistic" components are "recovery-infused pop cultural" for instance a la Trysh Travis. I had to think about this. "Traditionalist" AA may complain of the reverse: an "infusion" of A Course In Miracles &tc, but I'm not sure anyone has adequately diagnosed it. In addition to Mr. Stonebraker, thanks again to Glenn Chesnut for drawing attention to the esteemed Professor Travis' book around which a fairly eerie silence seems to loom thus far. [Kind of like Charlie Sheen, Dr. Drew, and Jane Valez-Mitchel.] I take (tongue in cheek) exception to that, beings (now in seriousness) her's is the first major scholarly "AA focused history/culture book" since Kurtz? Or am I missing something? It's quite possible. Nevertheless, I'm not much interested in going over a lot of old ground, and I myself would try to avoid any of that. My apologies in advance if I've done any of that. I've read few posts here, but I've used the internal "search" feature to try to avoid redundancy. Best, Paul IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7340. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics From: intuited . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2011 10:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The AA Grapevine has published two books of stories, Spiritual Awakenings (2003) and Spiritual Awakenings II (2010) that cover a broad array of perceptions and experiences of the journey in sobriety. It includes a variety of religious and non-religious perspectives. There is a little bit for everyone, in any state of questioning. I was very inspired by these books. I wish they were spoken of more in the program. We have so much literature that most meetings only carry the very basics. I have increasingly found that the "concept of God" is often reductionistic, not used in the historical evolution of the word, misinterpreted, and just not useful. So more and more I just use the word "Power." It certainly helps me with my understanding of quantum physics, photon light, space between particles, entanglement theory, etc. Many of us in our town were struggling with this problem of the newcomer hearing the "God-talk" and being confused. So we started a speaker/discussion meeting called "Journey of the Heart" and have several sentences in our format emphasizing the acceptance of all paths, encouraging unity in diversity. Its amazing how many members don't have a traditional concept of God as their greater power. And the way they experience this "knowing" is very unique. In fact, some describe this knowing as their intuition. Our last speaker described it as a wind blowing through him when he did the 6th and 7th. I think what Gerry from New Orleans said is right on: "Many believe that the traditional notion of "God" does not really exist, and understand that the word is simply a metaphor or symbol of the indefinable and unknown Power which is the source of all that exists, especially love, beauty, truth, justice, compassion and similar qualities." Amelia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7341. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Grapevine Play: Sybil, Irma Livoni, Frank, Cliff, and Mort From: jaxena77 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2011 2:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The AA historical play "In Our Own Words," written using the actual words of the early AA figures, will be performed in Los Angeles on June 25th, 2011, see http://icypaahost.org/page7.php We are also doing a benefit performance of the play in Sonoma County (in connection with the Sonoma County Intergroup Fellowship) on Saturday, June 18, 2011 at the Veterans Memorial Hall in Sebastopol see http://www.brownpapertickets.com/event/172646 Thank you to everyone who has helped us. It has really been appreciated! Jackie B San Francisco, California IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7342. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcohol From: Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2011 7:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Laurie Andrews, John Barton, and Les Cole - - - - From: Laurie Andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) None of this would matter if there were a universal consensus that alcoholism IS a disease; but there isn't, so AA as such can have no opinion on this controversial outside issue. Mike P. calls in aid Dr Silkworth as referring to alcoholism as a disease. Well, he might have done elsewhere, but he certainly did not in his foreword to the Big Book (The Doctor's Opinion - which the compilers refer to as "the medical estimate of the plan of recovery"), viz: "We doctors have realized for a long time that some form of moral psychology was of urgent importance to alcoholics but its application presented difficulties BEYOND OUR CONCEPTION. WHAT WITH OUR ULTRA-MODERN STANDARDS, OUR SCIENTIFIC APPROACH TO EVERYTHING, WE ARE PERHAPS NOT WELL EQUIPPED TO APPLY THE POWERS OF GOOD THAT LIE OUTSIDE OUR SYNTHETIC KNOWLEDGE (emphasis added) ... We believe ... that the action of alcohol on (these) chronic alcoholics IS A MANIFESTATION OF AN ALLERGY..." (Is the allergy hay fever a disease?) He goes on to say that although "recoveries resulting from psychiatric effort (is) considerable ... many types do not respond to the ordinary psychological approach .. in nearly all cases their ideals must be grounded in a power greater than themselves ... unless this person can experience an entire psychic change there is very little hope of his recovery". CF "three pertinent ideas": (a) that we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives; (b) that probably no human power (including medical science working in a disease paradigm) could have relieved our alcoholism; (c) that God could and would if he were sought. (Jung came to a similar conclusion in his advice to Rowland H. He did not tell Rowland to seek medical help but to associate himself with a religious fellowship). Dr Silkworth describes himself as "Medical Director of one of the oldest hospitals in the country treating alcohol and drug addiction"; i.e. an authority on alcoholism. Dr Bob, who told Bill D. "you have a disease", was a proctologist. Now haemorrhoids, like a broken leg, can be extremely painful and depressing - but they are not a disease! To argue that addiction, affliction, sickness, illness, malady, disease are all the same is fallacious. ("Someone with a disease is sick; an alcoholic is sick; therefore alcoholics have a disease"). If the different words were exact and precise synonyms, all with the same meaning, there would be no need for their nuanced subtleties. When Bill was asked directly (see earlier postings): "Did you intend to make any difference between sickness and disease?" He replied, "We AA's have never called alcoholism a disease..." What could be clearer? In the original working manuscript of the Big Book, reproduced in "The Book That Started It All" (Hazelden, 2010), alterations in the original text show the nascent fellowship bending over backward not to claim medical expertise and to stay at arm's length from the professionals. E.g. Commenting on changes to the manuscript page 12, paragraph 6, lines 1-4, the anonymous Hazelden authors observe: "In spite of the truth that physicians and psychiatrists were not able to bring about sustained solutions with alcoholics, the editors wisely removed words that could imply time wasted or never making headway with an alcoholic. This is a fine line because simultaneously it seems they want the alcoholic reader to recognise that this seemingly hopeless state of mind and body is beyond human aid - including the medical profession..." (TBTSIA, op cit page 198). Manuscript page 12, para 7, lines 1-4: "But the ex-alcoholic who has found this solution, who is properly armed with certain medical information (changed to, "the facts about himself") ..." Hazelden comment: Margin notes on top of page and right-side of page related to these edits: "Doctors are a jealous lot and don't like this. I have to ask WHAT MEDICAL INFORMATION? Why not cut?" (TBTSIA ibid p199). Manuscript page 15, para 4, line 3: Hazelden: This edit demonstrates sensitivity in not making a statement that would likely trigger the inconsistency between a psychiatric model that at this point would not embrace the knowledge of the illness of the mind/mental obsession. Manuscript page 45, para 1, line 5: "Remember they are fatally (changed to "very") ill." Hazelden: The margin note tied to the word "fatally" is "Doctors will shoot." This edit represents the fine-tooth comb used throughout the manuscript to have the utmosty sensitivity to any language that could possibly alienate the medical profession (TBTSIA ibib p200). Alas, the Hazelden authors cannot avoid falling into the same trap. On page 201 in a section headed "Alcoholism as a disease of the mind and body" they discuss The Doctor's Opinion and note "... these founding aspects of the disease of alcoholism, initially revealed to Bill W by Dr Silkworth in 1933..." They take it for granted that alcoholism is a disease, which is perhaps not surprising given that the Hazelden organisation is part of the treatment "industry", so not entirely disinterested. Medical insurers would fund treatment for a disease - but almost certainly not for a spiritual awakening! Apropos TBTSIA, Bill Dotson's story does not appear in the original manuscript. Dr Bob's story (headed "The Doctor's Nightmare") is followed by "The Unbeliever". The last personal story ("Smile With Me, At Me") runs from pp152-5. On the next page there is a list of further stories: 156-9: Barber - A Close Shave; 158-160 Hunt - "Intellectual Agnostic". 161-7: Furlong(?) - "Another Prodigal Story". 168-71: Stanley - The Car Smashed. 172-5: Hindsight - Williams (?). 176-8: Maher(?) - On His Way. 179-80: the Alcoholic's Wife - An alcoholic's wife. 181-6: Campbell - An Artist's Concept. 187-90: Tate - The Rolling Stone. 191-6: California(n) Lone (indecipherable). - - - - From: John Barton (jax760 at yahoo.com) For historical accuracy I would offer the following: As I much as I love the Big Book there are any number of papers and books that are far more "definitive" regarding "alcoholism" and what it is or isn't. I recently mentioned background material from Kurtz and White both of whom refer back to Jellinek as the most "definitive" work to date. AA as a whole has or should not have any opinion on the definition of alcoholism (since we/they are drunks and not Doctors or Medical Scientists) and having an opinion on a controversial subject that is outside the realm of their primary purpose will bring controversy. Bill was careful and certainly correct not to get involved in any debate regarding what alcoholism is or isn't. Somebody mentioned Bill's talk in 1960 to the NCCA which is about as "definitive" as you can get regarding Bill's and AA's position on the matter, straight from the horse's mouth. As AA historians and history lovers we might do well to follow AA's lead and not debate the concept, but certainly document the history and the conclusions of the Medical Societies and the experts who have spent years researching the topic. Some other points to be considered from this post from a "historical accuracy" perspective: The American Medical Association was not an early supporter of either AA or a disease concept. They pretty much trashed the Big Book when it came out and again if I'm not mistaken they resisted acknowledging alcoholism officially as a "disease" until the late sixties or early seventies. Tiebout made several statements in the 50s expressing his concern regarding the "disease" classification and was actually worried that the the whole disease camp was way out on a limb just waiting to be chopped off because they all had nothing scientific or conclusive in the way of empirical evidence to back up the definition of alcoholism as a disease. Dr Bob told Bill that the metaphor of "disease" was the only way to convey the hopelesness of the situation to the newcomer. Today, unfortunately, the "conceptual" or "operational" meaning of "disease" is so broad and loosely applied by just about anyone with a "credential", or any organization, wherever it makes sense often in a social context, or is PC to do so, that is has long lost any real "definitive" medical value and truly is reduced to just a metaphor. Today anything that causes us dis-ease or to be in a state "without ease" is likely to be called (and by word orgin and definition, correctly so) a "disease" Lastly, while I don't question Bill, Hank's overall good or altruistic intentions, to say with all authority that neither of them were in it for the money is a long shot. They both (Bill and Hank) wanted to make money. Bob was about to lose his house (early 1938) and was desperate for money and $3,000 of the Rockefellar money paid off his mortgage.There were any number of shady happenings with the book and the stock of Works Publishing. Clarence, Henrietta and others had grave misgivings about Bill's intentions with money and his solicitations. The dealings with Rockefellers, soliciting money with the stated intention of funding operations, money not paid back to various stock and stake holders all created problems and friction. Wally Von Arx threatened to sue Bill and Hank if they didn''t pay back money owed to him. Hank at one point, after he had relapsed, wrote the trustees and alluded to certain embarrasing money problems that might soon come to light and suggested a healthy commission on any money a good fund raiser (perhaps such as himself) might bring in might be a good way to proceed to put the whole deal on a "business basis," While Bill would give you the coat off his back I believe he did hope to be financially "restored" through the movement and said so on more than one occasion though not necessarily in so many words. Don't forget he signed a royaly agreement with the trustess not long after agreeing with Hank that only Bob would receive royalties. He went back on that agreement. Bill had Bob endorsing his early royalty checks back to Bill as Bob didn't really want the money and Bill was quite hard up for dough. Lots of "stuff" behind the scenes not all of it "ethical" or pure in motive and I'm quite sure that one day more will be revealed out of the GSO archives and the files that have not been made available to researchers.I seem to recall reading but can not quote the source at the moment that it was Father Dowling who lowered the boom on Bill and told him that this (profiting on AA) could never happen and that was quite a let down for Bill. Money issues and accusations regarding Bill's motives coming from some of his "friends and supporters" certainly contributed to Bill sinking back into depression in the early forties. Hope I haven't offended anyone! God Bless John B. - - - - From: LES COLE (elsietwo at msn.com) Hi All: Whatever the source of definitions, various uses over time, etc...... it seems to me that the "practical" word is "illness"! A "disease" is a communicatable condition...like measles. An "illness" refers to something that one person has. In common usage, an illness is not "catchable"! Les Colorado Springs, CO IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7343. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: atheists and agnostics, meaning of the term religion From: Ben Hammond . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2011 10:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Ben Hammond, Laurie Andrews, Robert Stonebraker, Dougbert, Cliff Bishop, Baileygc23, Larry Tooley (and Amelia) - - - - From: Ben Hammond (mlb9292 at gmail.com) Thanks Amelia for this post.** I sent it out to my History Lovers maillist. I met you in San Antonio ... God Bless You ... Old Ben Ben & Mary Lynn Hammond 5126 S. St. Louis Av Tulsa, Oklahoma 74105 918 313 4059 - - - - Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics From: Laurie Andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) CF William James (The Varieties of Religious Experience, Lecture 20, Conclusions): "Taking creeds and faith states together, as forming 'religions', and treating these as purely subjective phenomena, without regard to the question of their 'truth', we are obliged, on account of their extraordinary influence upon action and endurance, to class them amongst the most important biological functions of mankind. Their stimulant and anaesthetic effect is so great that Professor Leuba, in a recent article, goes so far as to say that so long as men can USE their God, they care very little who he is, or even whether he is at all. 'The truth of the matter can be put,' says Leuba, 'in this way; God is not known, he is not understood; he is used ... sometimes as moral support, sometimes as friend, sometimes as an object of love. If he proves himself useful, the religious consciousness asks no more than that. Does God really exist? How does he exist? What is he? are so many irrelevant questions. Not God, but life, more life, a larger, richer, more satisfying life, is, in the last analysis, the end of religion. The love of life, at any and every level of development, is the religious impulse. At this purely subjective rating, therefore, Religion must be considered vindicated in a certain way from the attacks of her critics. It would seem that she cannot be a mere anachronism and survival, but must exert a permanent function, whether she be with or without intellectual content, and whether, if she have any, it be true or false." The "stimulant and anaesthetic effect" of religion echo Jung in his letter to Bill W: "His (Rowland H's) craving for alcohol (stimulant and anaesthetic) was the equivalent, on a low level, of the spiritual thirst of our being for wholeness, expressed in medieval language: the union with God." - - - - From: "Robert Stonebraker" Historically speaking, in what context does the BB use term religion? A quote from Paul's recent message about Dr. Carl Jung: "Anyhow, historically speaking - if that's the terminology - at some point in history it doesn't seem to have mattered much, unless "organized religion" is connoted to mean "religion." I am also not sure what conceptual parameters Dr. Jung used to envelope his writings on religion. This however, opens another subject: What does the Big Book mean when it expresses religion? I would seem the writers of the Big Book were very open in their references to the term "religion." Page 87 encourages us to see where "religious people are right." The sentence above tells that we are pointed toward several diverse religious organizations: "Suggestions about these may be obtained from ones priest, minister or rabbi." . . . and on page xx we find: ". . . we include Catholics, Protestants, Hindus, and a sprinkling of Moslems and Buddhists." Interestingly, the writers of the Big Book were hesitant to point or use phrases that would associate AA with the Oxford Group from which they sprung. In the 'Original Working Manuscript' there is to be found hand written phrases such as: "This is absolutely Too Groupy." (ms page 43). Also to be found are scribbled warnings such as "Should be studied from the mold angle" (ms page 43), which pertains to not getting caught in the mold of the Oxford Group teaching. So, the point I mean to empathize here is that the writers of the Big Book welcomed all religious denominations, but were careful not to exclaim a preference, e.g., one above the other. Bob S. P.S. I find it of more than passing interest that the word 'God' is mentioned 242 times in the third edition of the Big Book. (A Concordance to Alcoholics Anonymous, by Steven and Francis Poe - 1990) - - - - From: Dougbert (dougbert8 at yahoo.com) Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics Jared and Glenn, Richard Peabody was a success by any metric used in the recovery industry. I strongly suggest rereading his message of empowerment and self-control. His approach is more aligned to Buddhism than to Christianity. Bill W. did a lot of plagiarizing when he attempted to put a Christian spin on self discipline. Richard Peabody, Peabody Movement-1930's wrote a book called Common Sense Of Drinking stressed physical condition (medical) surrender, deflation at depth removal of doubts and anxieties control of thoughts control of will power self-expression. An individual becomes an alcoholic for three main reasons: 1. As a result of inheritance. He possesses a nervous system which is non-resistant to alcohol. (In no sense is a direct craving transmitted from parent to offspring.) 2. By reason of his early environment. Through the ignorance of his parents or from their own nervous constitution, the alcoholic was either spoiled or neglected. He was not brought up to face the world courageously. He is lacking in self-reliance, no matter how physically brave he may be or how bold he may appear on the surface. Psychologically, he is unable to stand on his own two feet. As a result of this, he unconsciously craves a stimulant-narcotic. 3. Because of the effects of his later environment. That is to say, school, college, economic and social competition, marriage, and, for one generation at least, the World War. Richard R. Peabody, The Common Sense of Drinking, 1930, pp. 185-186 From History of the big book by Donald B As Fate would have it, Bill trained at the Officers Training Camp at Plattsburgh, New York, during the Summer of 1917, and was commissioned a Second Lieutenant in the Coastal Artillery. During the Summer, Richard Rodgers Peabody trained there and was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant in the Artillery. Here are a few phrases from Peabody's aforementioned book: Half measures were of no avail... p.99; Once a drunkard always a drunkard... p.82; The story of the retired businessman... p.123 Copyright 1930, 1931, By Richard R. Peabody. Published April, 1931. The Atlantic Monthly Press Books Are Published by Little, Brown, And Company In Association With The Atlantic Monthly Company. Book is dedicated to: Courtenay Baylor. 191 pages. Doug - - - - From: CBBB164@AOL.COM (CBBB164 at AOL.COM) Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics While I am a believer, I respect Doug's point. In my years in Alcoholics Anonymous, I have not yet seen a chronic alcoholic say I came to A.A. to find God. Many of us have had more than enough invitations, suggestions and directions from well meaning people that we need to find God before we had the opportunity to learn there is a way to live a sober and purposeful life. Just remember Bill's reaction when his ole drinking buddy said, "I've got religion." Bill went to work on his 2 quarts of Bathtub Gin. Just a thought. We recover by the Steps we take, not the meetings we make! IN GOD WE TRUST In God's love and service, Cliff Bishop 214-350-1190 http://www.ppgaadallas.org/ - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics AA says, "Surely there is none which more jealously guards the individual's right to think, talk, and act as he wishes." Carl Jung did come down on group thinking, and a couple of his opinions have been posted on the history lovers. - - - - From: "Larry Tooley" (wa9guu at charter.net) Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics My sponsor knew an atheist who said he used the group as a higher power. Also heard around the tables if you don't find something around the 7th or 8th step you will go out drinking again. That means church or Spiritual belief. ________________________________________ **Original message from Amelia (intuited at earthlink.net) > The AA Grapevine has published two books of stories, Spiritual Awakenings > (2003) and Spiritual Awakenings II (2010) that cover a broad array of > perceptions and experiences of the journey in sobriety. It includes a > variety of religious and non-religious perspectives. There is a little bit > for everyone, in any state of questioning. I was very inspired by these > books. I wish they were spoken of more in the program. We have so much > literature that most meetings only carry the very basics. I have > increasingly found that the "concept of God" is often reductionistic, not > used in the historical evolution of the word, misinterpreted, and just not > useful. So more and more I just use the word "Power." It certainly helps me > with my understanding of quantum physics, photon light, space between > particles, entanglement theory, etc. > > Many of us in our town were struggling with this problem of the newcomer > hearing the "God-talk" and being confused. So we started a > speaker/discussion meeting called "Journey of the Heart" and have several > sentences in our format emphasizing the acceptance of all paths, encouraging > unity in diversity. Its amazing how many members don't have a traditional > concept of God as their greater power. And the way they experience this > "knowing" is very unique. In fact, some describe this knowing as their > intuition. Our last speaker described it as a wind blowing through him when > he did the 6th and 7th. > > I think what Gerry from New Orleans said is right on: "Many believe that > the traditional notion of "God" does not really exist, and understand that > the word is simply a metaphor or symbol of the indefinable and unknown Power > which is the source of all that exists, especially love, beauty, truth, > justice, compassion and similar qualities." > > Amelia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7344. . . . . . . . . . . . Buddhists are not atheists but non-theists From: Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/29/2011 4:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "I suppose no one would claim that ... Buddhists are Atheists." -- a statement in message #7338 from "J. Lobdell" jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) Jared said that "No one would claim that ... Buddhists are atheists." But to Buddhists, belief in God is irrelevant, as exemplified in the famous story about the man struck by a poisoned arrow. He does not speculate on the identity of the archer or the nature of the poison - he pulls the arrow out! Buddhism is not about theology, but living rightly (CF "The spiritual life is not a theory, we have to live it"). "A minister in Thailand wrote, 'We took AA's 12 Steps to the largest Buddhist monastery in this province, and the head priest said, 'Why, these Steps are fine! For us as Buddhists, it might be slightly more acceptable if you had inserted the word "good" in your Steps instead of "God". Nevertheless, you say that it it is God as you understand Him, and that must certainly include the good. Yes, AA's 12 Steps will surely be accepted by Buddhists around here." (AA Comes of Age, page 81) "... we question very much whether our Buddhist members in Japan would ever have joined this Society had AA stamped itself a strictly Christian movement..." (Letter 1954, As Bill Sees It, page 34) "By personal religious affiliation, we include Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Hindus, and a sprinkling of Moslems and Buddhists..." (Big Book, 2nd edition foreword, 1955). - - - - From G.C. the moderator: the technical term for this kind of position, held by some Buddhist groups, is "non-theism." Zen Buddhism is a well known form of Buddhism which holds this position. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7345. . . . . . . . . . . . Earl T. (Chicago) and Third Tradition: Short and Long Form From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2011 11:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Joanna in Area 10 Colorado, This unedited excerpt of research is sourced from the Chicago Area 19 Archives, the AA Archives at the General Service Office, and the Archives at the Stepping Stones Foundation, and was written as part of a 'carry-along' given to Archives Room attendees at an Illinois State AA Conference in 2002. Bear with me about the background and quick development of the Short Form of Tradition Three (as well as the other eleven); your accurate answer is here and has much to do with Earl T. of Chicago: "Earl T. got sober in 1937 under the sponsorship of Dr. Bob after visits with his family in the Akron area, and it was two years before there were other new members to hold the first Illinois AA meeting. Bill, very close to Dr. Bob and the Akron Group, may have known about Earl but most likely didn't meet him until the 1940 Chicago visit. Friends by letter and telephone from the start, Bill stayed with Earl and his wife Katie during that first 1940 winter trip. And, at every Illinois visit during the 1940s, Bill and Lois (when she accompanied him) stayed with them. Lois Wilson's handwritten desk telephone book had Earl and Katie's Illinois numbers for every year's new book beginning with her 1940 entry. The two families kept in touch with each other. The favor was returned as early as 1946 when Earl visited New York and stayed at Bill and Lois' Stepping Stones home north of Manhattan. Bill also trusted Earl enough to ask him to report to the Alcoholic Foundation Board meetings in 1947, covering for Bill who was away on a trip, and he nominated Earl to the AF Board as an AA Trustee in 1949, replacing Dr. Bob, who had lost his dear Anne and faced his own final fight of cancer. Dozens of letters between the two friends, Bill and Earl, are in the files of the GSO Archives, and the correspondence shows a strong bond of caring, insights to early AA life, and the enthusiasm for AA service growth. Nell Wing, Bill's long-term secretary and AA's first Archivist at the General Service Office, recalled that our Short Form of the Twelve Traditions is directly attributed to Earl's friendly suggestions to Bill." Bill would later speak (I can't remember where but I've read a transcript) about a brief 1949 collaboration with his good friend Earl on the Traditions, when Earl convinced Bill that "most AAs would not stand still for a long form but might sit still long enough to understand a short one" or a phrase very close to that. There may be further sources in AA Comes of Age or Pass It On, but I have found that "directly attributed to Earl's friendly suggestions" is the honest truth of how and why the Short Form came about: out of friendship, insight, and with simplicity in mind. Hope this snippet of archival fact helps your article. Yours in fellowship, Rick T., Illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7346. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Third Tradition: Short Form and Long Form From: Sober186@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2011 8:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If one wants to see some well researched information about the long and short form of the traditions what was the actual language approved at the big meeting in Cleveland and more, one need look no further than post #5520 on this group. I will quote a small portion from that post. (yhe Reference to LOH means the statement is contained in the publication Language Of The Heart.) "Contrary to popular belief, the short form of the Traditions were not approved at the 1950 Convention, Bill W did not recite either the short or the long form of the Traditions to the attendees. Instead, he paraphrased and summarized a variation of the Traditions that is preserved in LOH 121. This is what Bill W read and was approved: "That, touching all matters affecting AA unity, our common welfare should come first; that AA has no human authority - only God as he may speak in our Group Conscience; that our leaders are but trusted servants, they do not govern; that any alcoholic may become an AA member if he says so - we exclude no one; that every AA Group may manage its own affairs as it likes, provided surrounding groups are not harmed thereby; that we AAs have but a single aim, the carrying of our message to the alcoholic who still suffers; that in consequence we cannot finance, endorse or otherwise lend the name 'Alcoholics Anonymous' to any other enterprise, however worthy; that AA, as such, ought to remain poor, lest problems of property, management and money divert us from our sole aim; that we ought to be self-supporting, gladly paying our small expenses ourselves; that AA should remain forever non-professional, ordinary 12th Step work never to be paid for; that, as a Fellowship, we should never be organized but may nevertheless create responsible Service Boards or Committees to insure us better propagation and sponsorship and that these agencies may engage fulltime workers for special tasks; that our public relations ought to proceed upon the principle of attraction rather than promotion, it being better to let our friends recommend us; that personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and pictures ought to be strictly maintained as our best protection, against the temptations of power or personal ambition; and finally, that anonymity before the general public is the spiritual key to all our Traditions, ever reminding us we are always to place principles before personalities, that we are actually to practice a genuine humility. This to the end that our great blessings may never spoil us; that we shall forever live in thankful contemplation of Him who presides over us all." Following Bill's summation, the attendees unanimously approved the Traditions by standing vote. Notably missing from what Bill recited to the attendees were the principles in Tradition 10 of AA having no opinion on outside issues and not drawing the AA name into public controversy. Nevertheless, the attendees unanimously approved what Bill W presented. (AACOA 43, PIO 338, LOH 117-124) As an aside, I have read elsewhere, Dr. Bob, who was near death left for the hotel and home after his short speech. Dr. bob was not particularly in favor of the fellowship adopting any traditions. -- Bill, let's not screw this thing up. keep it simple.-- or words close to that. However, I don't believe he was there when the standing vote was taken, so we will probably never know how he resolved what he saw as a conflict. Jim L. Central Ohio IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7347. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Carl Jung - spiritual vs. religious, and syncronicity From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2011 8:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Paul gets into some interesting and complex issues here. There is too much to respond in one post, but I'd like to try to approach some of the issues based on the letters and manuscripts I've seen. Jung wrote an enormous amount of material, and although I've read some of I am far below the level of expert. Paul and I would probably agree on the value of the synchronicity concept. I don't know how important it actually was to Jung, and certainly the rest of his work does not rise and fall on the value of that one idea. The beginnings of AA seem to me to have involved multiple cultural, medical and religious changes taking place at the time. "Overdetermination" might even be a better interpretation than synchronicity. I do believe that Jung identified two different levels of spiritual or religious development. For people who are capable of the most demanding approach, spiritual development or individuation takes a lifetime of involvement with analysis, study, introspection and interaction with similarly enlightened people. When Jung said nice things about religion, it was generally in reference to the "common" sort of person, of whom no more could really be expected. Initially, Jung saw Rowland Hazard as the kind of person who is highly intelligent and capable of maximal insight. The demands of Jungian-style spirituality are such that few can aspire to them. Later, Jung realized that the alcoholism and general personality structure were so problematic that the best Rowland could hope for would be stability based on close association with a fellowship of some kind. That would have been a serious demotion, in Jung's eyes, but preferable to slow death by alcohol. As for the Richard Noll books, they are entertaining but I really don't think anyone takes them terribly seriously. Jung was certainly a guru-type figure to his disciples. However, the idea that he had ambitions to establish some arcane and persistent cult, Aryan or otherwise, is silly. Cora IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7348. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Paul on Travis - Language of the Heart - Traditionalist AA vs. GSO AA From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/26/2011 6:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Paul (and others), I read but rarely jump into this list's discussions because it really is time for someone to produce a comprehensive history of AA that will replace *Not-God* as sort of a standard. As noted recently by Paul, my book -- which began as a doctoral dissertation -- concentrated on the place of AA in the ongoing history of "religious ideas" broadly understood. We need to learn more about the economic and sociological aspects of AA, to mention but two other areas that cry out for investigation. And there are errors in *Not-God* uncovered by later research, for example about Roland Hazard and Dr. Carl Jung. I have met one person, Kevin Hanlon, who the last I knew was working on a film about AA, who struck me as having the interest and talent and resources to produce such a work. Sadly, over the years this field has lost such promising researchers as Bill Pittman and Merton Minter. Others, such as Mitchell K., have been forced by circumstances to work on other projects, such as making a living. Also, too many academics have had to drop promising projects because the very richness of the resources means those projects would take more than the available time in this era of "publish or perish." [For any as yet unaware, AA's NY GSO archives are in the process of being digitized.] Still others, for example the indefatigable Bill White, have been spread thin by their generous commitment to serve primarily the treatment constituency. Especially, however, at this time when pressure again grows to interpret AA through a narrow lens such as that of one type of Evangelical Christianity or shards of the "mind-cure" movement that flourished in late 19th-century America, there is a very real need for a carefully comprehensive retelling of the AA story, researched according to historical standards. As one word of encouragement more than caution, I close with words from Hannah Arendt's study of *The Human Condition*: Action reveals itself fully only to the storyteller, that is, to the backward glance of the historian, who indeed always knows better what it was all about than the participants. All accounts told by the actors themselves, though they may in rare cases give an entirely trustworthy statement of intentions, aims, and motives, become mere useful source material in the historian's hands and can never match his story in significance and truthfulness. What the storyteller narrates must necessarily be hidden from the actor himself, at least as long as he is in the act or caught in its consequences, because to him the meaningfulness of his act is not in the story that follows. Even though stories are the inevitable results of action, it is not the actor but the storyteller who preceives and "makes" the story. Respectfully, and also hopefully, ernie kurtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7349. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Travis - Language of the Heart - Traditionalist AA vs. GSO AA From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2011 9:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On the matter of the "Messengers to Ebby" (Rowland-III, Shep, Cebe) see material seriatim in CULTURE ALCOHOL & SOCIETY QUARTERLY [CASQ] Newsletter of the Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown, on the Brown Library website, especially Volumes 2(1) through 4(4), with 4(5) and following in preparation. There is also a note (pp. 15-18) on Trysh's book in the form of an interview between the CASQ editor and the forty-year-sober alcoholic Jane S (author of Q & A: Alcoholism and Sobriety**) in CASQ 4(3) that may be of interest. Both the CASQ editor and Trysh have served as Kirk Fellows at Brown, and Jane S has also been involved with the Kirk program. __________________________________________ **Jane S., Q & A: Alcoholism and Sobriety http://hindsfoot.org/kqa1.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7350. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Travis - Language of the Heart - Traditionalist AA vs. GSO AA From: pvttimt@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2011 12:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "My estimate is that a so-called tensor analysis (matrix entries are vector rather than scalor) where "relativistic" components re 'recovery-infused pop cultural' for instance a la Trysh Travis." At the risk of being anti-intellectual ... WHAT?? - - - - Sentence quoted from message #7339 from "Paul" (spectrumptg at yahoo.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7339 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7351. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Carl Jung - spiritual vs. religious, and syncronicity From: awuh1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/26/2011 9:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I must admit to a sensing a certain bias in the posting Carl Jung - spiritual vs. religious, and synchronicity. At the time of the senders response to Mr. Stonebreakes "A Pre-AA History Book, A Study of Synchronic Events", he admits to finishing neither that work nor the seminal work by Carl Jung "Synchronicity, An Acasual Connecting Principle". At the same time he states that he "read Noll's book(s) more carefully". The poster refers to Noll's book, "The Jung Cult: Origins of a Charismatic Movement", as "scholarly research" and offers up support for this proposition via the Princeton University Press nomination of it for an award (they are, not coincidentally, the publishers of the book, and, it did not get the award). The reviews of the book were far from universally positive. In the Journal, "Bulletin of the History of Medicine" Volume 70, Number 3, Fall 1996 they write, "In the guise of a scholarly text on the history of science, Richard Noll has written a polemic in which he makes unfounded speculations about Jung's personal and professional life. Specifically, he accuses Jung of having established a neopagan religious sect, a so-called Jung Cult. As evidence for this accusation, he offers his own questionable interpretations of Jung's writings ... " Personally I thought that this review of Noll's book was kind, given some of the propositions put forth in his "research". With regard to spiritual vs. religious ... I think the poster is correct, most of those familiar with AA history regard it as both old hat, AND splitting hairs. Regards, Tom ________________________________________ A response to Message #7334 from "Paul" (spectrumptg at yahoo.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7334 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7352. . . . . . . . . . . . Brooklyn meeting with lineage back to Bill''s house? From: Tim Ruckle . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2011 9:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am staying in Brooklyn and have heard that there is an AA meeting here that has a lineage going back to the meetings Bill held in his house. Is this true? If so, where and when are the meetings? Thanks! Tim R IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7353. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Travis - Language of the Heart - Traditionalist AA vs. GSO AA From: Paul . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2011 9:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I received a private correspondence about this from an AAHistoryLovers group member which made me realize some things might have been better posed as questions: Was not "There is a God, and you're not Him!" fairly broad (almost universal by some standards) AA vernacular by the time Kurtz composed his AA History? And if so, why was it overlooked, and perhaps hitherto (by Kurtz and/or others)? Is any of that even "important?" What, REALLY, is the importance of AA vernacular, in a historical sense? From where I sit, at this moment in time, I'm mainly interested in answer(s), provisional or otherwise, to only the first of these questions. ___________________________________________ From G.C. the moderator: The first edition of Ernest Kurtz, Not-God: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous, came out in 1979, over thirty years ago. He starts on page vii with a quote from page 62 of the Big Book: "First of all we had to quit playing God." So the idea goes back to 1939 at least (the date of publication of the Big Book, over seventy years ago). During the period when Kurtz was a young doctoral student in the History of American Civilization at Harvard University (i.e. during the 1970's, over thirty years ago), he would slip over to Harvard Divinity School on occasion. Some of the Divinity School faculty at that time were strongly affected by Protestant Neo-Orthodox theology (also called crisis theology or dialectical theology) -- the Swiss theologian Karl Barth, Reinhold Niebuhr, Paul Tillich, etc. -- and their idea that the root of all human sinfulness was the human desire to play God. Barth's commentary on the Epistle to the Romans, which came out in 1919 (over ninety years ago), was the first great manifesto of that movement. I don't think that looking at current AA popular vernacular phrases is very useful here, if you are looking for the source of that idea. Not unless you can show that these AA vernacular phrases already existed and were in use at a very early period, prior to 1939. Ernie says in his book that he got the idea of the importance of the "not-God" phrase from the Big Book itself. From my own memories of what was talked about at the best American divinity schools during the 1960's and 1970's, I feel sure that Ernie's sensitivity to the importance of this idea in the Big Book was greatly heightened by the influence of the overall American theological context of that time -- Karl Barth, Reinhold Niebuhr, etc. Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7354. . . . . . . . . . . . When was Anne Smith admitted to St. Thomas Hospital? From: Fritz . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/1/2011 10:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII While studying Chapter XXVIII of Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, "Without Anne, but with loving friends", our group came across an undefined set of dates pertaining to Anne's last days. The last paragraph on page 327 states "When they came back, he called me early one morning and asked me to come over. He said,"Mama hasn't been well. We both knew she as seriously ill. So we took her to St. Thomas. She lasted six or seven days. The question we seem to be puzzled about is,"What day was Anne admitted to St. Thomas hospital? We know Anne passed on June 01,1949 but have not been able to find any verifiable dates to when she was actually admitted to the hospital. The second question we have is about the date they returned from their visit with Smitty in Texas, as we believe this would help in determining her admission to St. Thomas. Any help or direction for locating someone in either Akron or Cleveland would be appreciated with this puzzle we have stumbled across. Love and Tolerance of others, Fritz from Lorain IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7355. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Red-Headed A.A. nurse Known as Teddy From: MattD . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/7/2011 11:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AAHL Group, Does anyone happen to know about the date of birth and death for Teddy Rowan? (By the lack of posts I'd guess probably not.) Matt D. - - - - --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, ron.fulkerson@... wrote: > > Tommy, > > She told her story in the Saturday Evening Post magazine 10/18/1952. > > ronf > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7356. . . . . . . . . . . . Looking out from inside a glass fish bowl From: The Wilsons . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/7/2011 1:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings In one of the stories in one of the editions of the Big Book, the writer made reference to looking at things as though he/she was in a glass fish bowl looking out. Does anyone know which story that might be? Thanks Bob IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7357. . . . . . . . . . . . Jung''s attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism From: AAHistoryLovers member . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2011 5:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is a very important cautionary note for AA historians who wish to portray Carl Jung, in his younger years, as an eager proponent of religious cures as the best and necessary way to treat alcoholism. Carl Jung's earliest attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism seems to include an acknowledgment that such cures do occur on occasion, but his way of speaking about them is nevertheless not very complementary. Jung expressed this ambivalence toward the Group in a talk about the relationship of religion to mental health around 1941. "A hysterical alcoholic was cured by this Group movement, and they used him as a sort of model and sent him all round Europe, where he confessed so nicely and said that he had done wrong and how he had got cured through the Group movement. And when he had repeated his story twenty, or it may have been fifty, times, he got sick of it and took to drink again. The spiritual sensation had simply faded away. Now what are they going to do with him? They say, now he is pathological, he must go to a doctor. See, in the first stage he has been cured by Jesus, in the second by a doctor! I should and did refuse such a case. I sent the man back to these people and said, 'If you believe that Jesus has cured this man, he will do it a second time. And if he can't do it, you don't suppose that I can do it better than Jesus?' But that is just exactly what they do expect; when a man is pathological, Jesus won't help him but the doctor will."[71] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7358. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcohol From: CloydG . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2011 4:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Clyde G. and Mike Portz - - - - "CloydG" (cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net) According to my research, the National Council of Alcoholism was founded in 1944. After years of discussion, the AMA finally declared alcoholism a disease in 1956. My opinion is, Dr. Silkworth was ahead of his time. His fear of publicly stating his theory towards alcoholism as a disease was because such a theory was considered heresy by his medical benefactors. Still, the little doctor did his best to convince Bill W. of the malady of his disease, that he had an allergy of the body and an obsession of the mind. To equivocate our thinking today with those of the day when AA came of age, is simply inaccurate. Meaning, we don't have the same abilities to think today as they did when no one knew of a solution that could help alcoholics; not with any certainty of course. Today AA is primarily based as a fellowship of men and women who practice a Spiritual way of living through a set of principals that enable them to live, "One Day At A Time", immune from having to take a drink to live. No amount of History seeking to define how all of this happened is available. As even the memories from one drunk to another, which were at best seemingly similar, were all too often confused; certainly in a time line anyway, in knowing how AA worked things out as an illness of both mind and body. Simply put, every alcoholic involved who participated in the writing of the original manuscript, alcoholic or not, differed from place to place; Akron members differed with those in Cleveland and they both differed with those in NY. Yet, it was all pieced together to the majorities acceptance, then finally put into print. Though certainly not perfect for Historians, it still worked for alcoholics! Clyde G. - - - - From: Mike Portz (mportz2000 at yahoo.com) Howdy Ms. Laurie and Mr. John Barton, Thanks much for your comments on the "disease of alcoholism." They are very much appreciated. I believe you are absolutely correct about Dr. Silkworth not mentioning the word disease in his opinion. I would guess that he did this to, again, not create any controversy or cause offense to the AMA medical powers of the time. Your probably aware that he also would not allow his name to be printed in the first edition. It did not start appearing until the 2nd edition. He insisted upon this because he feared losing his medical license to practice. That's how cautionary he was about writing his opinion. All historical accounts are that he wanted to do everything he could for A.A., but he had to make a living also. He also, again in order to not cause controversy or offense, insisted upon calling his correspondence an opinion, as opposed to more adamant wording stating or insinuating that his statements were factual or had been proven. They were solely his opinion. As far as their being no "universal consensus" that alcoholism IS a disease, I really have no idea. However the American Medical Association (AMA) does accept it as a disease and it is defined by the AMA as " a primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations." That definition certainly works for me and I'd take a educated guess that the AMA's opinion holds a majority of opinions in the good old USA. That is for anyone who cares if it is a disease. I'd guess that it makes little difference even to most A.A.'s and their loved ones. They're just glad we have a way to get well. As for Bill Wilson's (the compiler) wording"the medical estimate of the plan of recovery," I would think that this wording may have been chosen by Bill and agreed to by other members "of the 'first 100'" to show respect and to honor Dr. Silkworth's request and statement that his opinion not be referred to as fact. Reckon he had a "cautionary fear." I hope this information helps to give you a clearer insight. Mr. John your statement that there are "far more definitive" books on the disease of alcoholism is without question, correct. Please forgive my incorrect comment to the contrary that was not definitive in regards to my intention. My intention, my thought was to state that I was speaking about the "treatment that puts the disease/illness/malady/sickness" of alcoholism into remission. I must say that for this alkie, I'm much more interested in the treatment for remission, and thus a real and productive life, then how a alkie acts or how the liquid poisons my body's systems and organs that will eventually lead to my early or instant death. I always knew it would, I just wanted to find a way to stop it from happening. I am aware that because of the direction of physicians like Dr. Silkworth and other members of its medical fellowship (all who were or became great supporters of Alcoholics Anonymous), that the AMA, the most generally and publicly accepted medical association in America, has progressed enough to agree with the majority opinions of most of its members and has accepted and defined alcoholism as a disease. I don't see what we call it really makes a dang difference to any real alcoholic in recovery. I think the bottom line for most of us alkies is that the Creator gave us a method that now allows for a way to treat are historically fatal malady. As far as Dr. Bob "really not wanting the money," I'd be very appreciative of you could refer me to where I can read up on that statement. I've been reading historic information that is quite contrary to your information. I never would have thought he wanted to lose his house, etc.? Oh well, I'm just searching for the facts. I agree that probably the most important things to Mr. Hank Parkhurst was making money off of the deal and gaining fame. Heck, Clarence Snyder, because of false info from Mr. Hank, was even of the notion that maybe even Dr. Bob and Mr. Bill were misdirecting funds into their own pockets. Of course Bob and Bill both had financial records to prove otherwise. Yeah Bill wanted an income. He wanted to have his own place to stay in and not have to have Lois and himself be "boarded" through the kindness of other A.A.'s and not theirselves. I'd bet that he wanted things like a car, nice clothes and other niceties for Lois. You know the things everyman would like to have for his wife, his loved ones and his self. But to say Bill Wilson wasn't altruistic to the extreme, to imply he was in it for the money, well I sure wish you'd refer me to where I can read about that. The only thing I've ever heard on it is undocumented opinions in meetings from A.A.'s who seem to have good intentions but also have contacted the character defect of believing everything they hear in meetings and accepting it for gospel. Not that we don't hear quite a bit of good stuff in meetings, but I gotta admit where I go to meetings there's also a few members who seem to have "kissed the blarney stone." If you get my drift. So you sure "haven't offended" me John. It's just that there's just some of what you say that I'd like to get a hold the documentation so I can pass around factual information and have a clear conscience about it. This is definitely my last post on the "disease concept." Kind regards in fellowship Mike Portz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7359. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung''s attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2011 12:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Source, please? ernie kurtz - - - - On Apr 30, 2011, at 5:12 PM, AAHistoryLovers.member wrote: > This is a very important cautionary note for AA historians who wish to portray Carl Jung, in his younger years, as an eager proponent of religious cures as the best and necessary way to treat alcoholism. > > Carl Jung's earliest attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism seems to include an acknowledgment that such cures do occur on occasion, but his way of speaking about them is nevertheless not very complementary. > > Jung expressed this ambivalence toward the Group in a talk about the > relationship of religion to mental health around 1941. "A hysterical alcoholic was cured by this Group movement, and they used him as a sort of model and sent him all round Europe, where he confessed so nicely and said that he had done wrong and how he had got cured through the Group movement. And when he had repeated his story twenty, or it may have been fifty, times, he got sick of it and took to drink again. The spiritual sensation had simply faded away. Now what are they going to do with him? They say, now he is pathological, he must go to a doctor. See, in the first stage he has been cured by Jesus, in the second by a doctor! I should and did refuse such a case. I sent the man back to these people and said, 'If you believe that Jesus has cured this man, he will do it a second time. And if he can't do it, you don't suppose that I can do it better than Jesus?' But that is just exactly what they do expect; when a man is pathological, Jesus won't help him but the doctor will."[71] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7360. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung''s attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism From: Michael Gwirtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2011 1:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What is the source of this quote by this anonymous member? Shakey Mike Gwirtz NAAAW2011 in Helena,Montana - - - - On Apr 30, 2011, at 5:12 PM, UnknownSender@UnknownDomain wrote: > This is a very important cautionary note for AA historians who wish to portray Carl Jung, in his younger years, as an eager proponent of religious cures as the best and necessary way to treat alcoholism. > > Carl Jung's earliest attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism seems to include an acknowledgment that such cures do occur on occasion, but his way of speaking about them is nevertheless not very complementary. > > Jung expressed this ambivalence toward the Group in a talk about the > relationship of religion to mental health around 1941. "A hysterical alcoholic was cured by this Group movement, and they used him as a sort of model and sent him all round Europe, where he confessed so nicely and said that he had done wrong and how he had got cured through the Group movement. And when he had repeated his story twenty, or it may have been fifty, times, he got sick of it and took to drink again. The spiritual sensation had simply faded away. Now what are they going to do with him? They say, now he is pathological, he must go to a doctor. See, in the first stage he has been cured by Jesus, in the second by a doctor! I should and did refuse such a case. I sent the man back to these people and said, 'If you believe that Jesus has cured this man, he will do it a second time. And if he can't do it, you don't suppose that I can do it better than Jesus?' But that is just exactly what they do expect; when a man is pathological, Jesus won't help him but the d octor will."[71] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7361. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung''s attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2011 2:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Baileygc23 and Glenn C -- online source of the Jung quotation - - - - Carl Jung on the Oxford Group http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Group Carl Jung became aware of the Oxford Group in the 1920s when Alphonse Maeder, his colleague and former assistant, became involved with the movement. Although Jung recognized that troubled patients sometimes gained a sense of security, purpose and belonging from Group involvement, in his view there was a sacrifice in personal individuation. He therefore did not understand what attraction the group could have for someone with the psychoanalytic sophistication of Maeder. For a time Jung was respectful of Maeder's convictions, but when his relationship with Maeder deteriorated in the 1930s his attitude toward the Oxford Group also became more negative.[70] Jung expressed this ambivalence toward the Group in a talk about the relationship of religion to mental health around 1941. "A hysterical alcoholic was cured by this Group movement, and they used him as a sort of model and sent him all round Europe, where he confessed so nicely and said that he had done wrong and how he had got cured through the Group movement. And when he had repeated his story twenty, or it may have been fifty, times, he got sick of it and took to drink again. The spiritual sensation had simply faded away. Now what are they going to do with him? They say, now he is pathological, he must go to a doctor. See, in the first stage he has been cured by Jesus, in the second by a doctor! I should and did refuse such a case. I sent the man back to these people and said, 'If you believe that Jesus has cured this man, he will do it a second time. And if he can't do it, you don't suppose that I can do it better than Jesus?' But that is just exactly what they do expect; when a man is pathological, Jesus won't help him but the doctor will."[71] [70] ^ C.G. Jung Letters, selected and edited by Gerhard Adler in collaboration with Aniela Jaffe, trans. R.F.C. Hull,Volume 1. [71] ^ Carl Jung, The Symbolic Life, p. 272 - - - - Spirituality as a cure for alcoholism http://www.bookrags.com/wiki/Carl_Jung Jung's influence can sometimes be found in more unexpected quarters. For example, Jung once treated an American patient (Rowland H.) suffering from chronic alcoholism. After working with the patient for some time, and achieving no significant progress, Jung told the man that his alcoholic condition was near to hopeless, save only the possibility of a spiritual experience. Jung noted that occasionally such experiences had been known to reform alcoholics where all else had failed. Rowland took Jung's advice seriously and set about seeking a personal spiritual experience. He returned home to the United States and joined a Christian evangelical movement known as the Oxford Group. He also told other alcoholics what Jung had told him about the importance of a spiritual experience. One of the alcoholics he told was Ebby Thacher, a long-time friend and drinking buddy of Bill Wilson, later co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA). Thacher told Wilson about Jung's ideas. Wilson, who was finding it impossible to maintain sobriety, was impressed and sought out his own spiritual experience. The influence of Jung thus indirectly found its way into the formation of Alcoholics Anonymous, the original 12-step program, and from there into the whole 12-step recovery movement, although AA as a whole is not Jungian and Jung had no role in the formation of that approach or the 12 steps. The above claims are documented in the letters of Carl Jung and Bill W., excerpts of which can be found in Pass It On, published by Alcoholics Anonymous.[16] Although the detail of this story is disputed by some historians, Jung himself made reference to its substance -- including the Oxford Group participation of the individual in question -- in a talk that was issued privately in 1954 as a transcript from shorthand taken by an attendee (Jung reportedly approved the transcript), later recorded in Volume 18 of his Collected Works, The Symbolic Life ("For instance, when a member of the Oxford Group comes to me in order to get treatment, I say, 'You are in the Oxford Group; so long as you are there, you settle your affair with the Oxford Group. I can't do it better than Jesus.' I will tell you a story of such a case. A hysterical alcoholic was cured by this Group movement..."[17]) [16] ^ Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. (1984) Pass It On: The Story of Bill Wilson and how the A.A. message reached the world. New York: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. ISBN 0-916856-12-7, pp. 381-386 [17] ^ Jung, C. G.; Adler, G. and Hull, R. F. C., eds. (1977) Collected Works of C. G. Jung, Volume 18: The Symbolic Life: Miscellaneous Writings, Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, ISBN 978-0-691-09892-0, p. 272, as noted 2007-08-26 at http://www.stellarfire.org/additional.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7362. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: When was Anne Smith admitted to St. Thomas Hospital? From: Robt Woodson . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2011 9:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Fritz, A quick call reveals that the telephone number for St. Thomas's Office of Medical Records is (330) 375-3930. The office will be open tomorrow...(Monday) at 8:30 AM. The receptionist was quite friendly and immediately warmed to the subject. The Hospital is ready, once again, to welcome Founder's Day visitors.in mid-June of this year. The Street outside the Hospital, that runs from Main Street to Olive Street and that runs past their Emergency entrance and what was once the Robert Holbrook Smith Interim Care Center; has been renamed "Dr. Bob's Way". It was mentioned that those would be very old records ... I know because I was born there two years before and my birth certificate appears antique ... (LOL) ... good luck and please share your findings. If I can be more helpful please let me know. Woody in Akron IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7363. . . . . . . . . . . . AA officially brought to U.S. military bases, epec. in Germany From: Dolores . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/5/2011 4:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone have any more information about the Act of Congress which brought AA officially onto the U.S. military bases, especially in Germany? Dolores IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7364. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Chuck Chamberlain From: John Moore . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2011 6:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Ryan, This may or may not help much with getting an archive display concerning Chuck C. I got sober in Laguna Beach in 1971 and went to meetings with Chuck pretty often, and heard him speak many times around LA and Orange County. His home group was the Wed Night meeting at women's club in Laguna. He went to Canyon Club a lot too, but he traveled and spoke at other meetings and conventions a great deal. I believe that he paid his own way when asked to speak. Since he was in demand a lot, it cost him a lot, but I heard that he did it as a service. Chuck ended up with money but he worked hard for it and made a success using the AA principles. He designed and built the freezer and refrigerator departments for the Von's supermarket chain. He got the account by doing it for free and for fun, knowing that if his work was satisfactory, his higher power would make sure he was remunerated, and if not satisfactory, then fine too. A great model for guys like me to follow, as I have been doing for many years. I am pretty sure the Canyon Club was not built or funded by Chuck C. The Canyon Club of today is a far cry from what it was when I got sober in 1971. It was a cramped cinderblock structure on Laguna Canyon road and was not in any way splendid or luxurious. There was a coffee bar and a pool table, restrooms, and the adjoining meeting room would hold maybe 50 or 100 members, though there was not enough parking for that many cars. Chuck often attended the Monday Night Men's meeting at the Club (I was secretary of that group in 1972). Joe Quinn, Frank O'Rourke, Dr Paul O., Bill Blake, Cliff R., Ralph Samuelson and other old timers attended. Here is info I found on the history of the Canyon Club .... John M Burlington, Vermont US contact.johnm@gmail.com __________________________________________ http://www.canyonclub.org/CANYON_CLUB/ABOUT_US.html "In 1980 there was a generous gift from the estate of James (Jim) Dilley. Jim was a bookstore owner from Laguna Beach who had traveled extensively in Europe and had attended Harvard Divinity School. He was also the town drunk. Legend has it that every time Jim’s dog Bebo would see a police car pull up to the curb, he would hop right in. You see, Bebo had become accustomed to regular trips to the town drunk tank. Jim would later get sober at the Canyon Club around 1963. He was very active at the Club and according to sources, became a chief source of financial support for years when the Club couldn’t pay it’s own way. He was 16 or 17 years sober (best the old timers can remember) when he died—bequeathing his bookstore to the Canyon Club in a final gesture of gratitude for all he had found there. Jim’s gift to the Canyon Club of Dilley’s Bookstore (now Sherwood Gallery) was later used by the Club’s Board of Trustees to purchase a piece of commercial property in the canyon. The Board was feeling the pinch from the membership to find a new Club. It had been 13 years since Jim’s donation. The commercial property that the Club already owned was deemed unsuitable for redevelopment as a meeting space. So a land exchange was brokered from that property to the current property site—20456 Laguna Canyon Road—a 1.4 acre plot of land. The building of the Club was underway. A competition for development plans opened to architects who did non-residential buildings. After reviewing proposals from three different firms, Peyo & Associates was selected. The architectural firm had done many previous non-residential projects. Not only was their price the most competitive, it took into account the spiritual intent of the building. Some of the unique design features were: 1) The basic structure had two wings which were angled to embrace or receive all who entered. 2) The parking lot was “green” because it was gravel where water would drain into the ground and not just run off. 3) Trees and landscape were incorporated to preserve the park-like appearance and decrease the noise from Laguna Canyon Road. The winning bid for the Club’s construction came from Young Construction Co. Both the architect and construction firms gave us very large discounts. The bid for construction was $333,033.33. (I think three was his lucky number.) In regard to day-to-day construction at the site, the architect turned up everyday to supervise quality of materials as well as his crew. One day I spoke with him. “You know we cannot pay you for daily supervision. You are putting in an extremely large amount of time for which we are unable to compensate.” He responded with a great story... “When I was in high school I had just won a scholarship to college and went out to celebrate,” he said. “Unfortunately I got drunk and arrested by the police that night. Standing before the judge, I explained that I was a first generation Bulgarian—and that no one from my country had ever been accepted into Berkeley. I had a full scholarship and if the DUI went on my record, I would loose the scholarship. Unbelievably, the judge said, ‘I’m going to expunge your record this time, but sometime in the future you must make a contribution to help AA.’ So you see Herman, this is my payback.” After the project started we noted that we were running short of building funds due to the many changes we were adding. We conducted fundraising activities, but were still short. Head of the fundraising committee was Muriel Zink, so we put the matter in her hands. She asked one of our angels for a contribution. He said, “How much do you need?” She responded with $30 thousand. He wrote a check then and there. The time frame from the appointment of the new Trustees to completion of the building was from April 1993 to November 1993. These are just a few of the miracles that helped put this new building into place. – by Herman F." contact.johnmoore@gmail.com * *On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:02 AM, Charley Bill wrote: * > > * * > > *Ryan, check with someone at the Canyon Club in Laguna Beach, California. > Chuck is said to have built it and donated it to the Laguna AAs. It is far > above any and all 'AA' facilities I have seen in my 41 years of travels in > and out of sobriety. Good Luck and I think you will find someone there who > can tell you loads about Chuck. I just knew him scantly, but knew both his > drivers and one of his would-be biographers(now dead). > > There is a branch of the Orange County Central office in Laguna and I * * > bet they have loads of stuff on Chuck, too. A little group I belong to > studied A New Pair of Glasses a year or two ago and we were not > impressed. I remember him as a great orator, but did not know much > about the content of his speeches as I was new at the time. > > > > * > ** > * * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7365. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcohol From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2011 8:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi all: I'd like to toss in one more tid-bit about searching for documentation. During the past 13 years when I was researching AA history for my book about Rogers Burnham(not yet published), I orignally found many pieces of information which I accepted as "facts" because they had been published for all to read. Later, I found in other sources that some things were actualy "not true" as proven by data found in court records, etc. I mention this in connection to what seems to be our wish to establish a reliable origin for things which occurred in the minds of the AA pioneers back in the 1930s ...or in places like dictionaries ... so that we may have helpful guidelines for the way(s) AA-today is (or presumedly "should" ) be practiced currently. My position is that we historians can be satisfied by sharing "history" simply as history, knowing that there probably is no absolute truth to anything, since circumstances vary and control results. Les Cole Colorado Springs, CO IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7366. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung''s attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2011 9:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Ernest Kurtz wrote: > > Source, please? > > ernie kurtz > It appears in Volume 18 of the Collected Works, Miscellaneous Writings, page 272. Another remark, apparently about the same patient, appears on page 242. You, by the way, were the cause of that passage coming to light. It went viral after I put it in an addendum to my Stellar Fire article, and here is how it came to my attention. I had emailed a Jungian practitioner in the Philadelphia area to ask him if he had any idea who the mysterious Fred W. in "Not God" might be. He didn't know, but after checking out the article, he emailed back to ask why I had not considered the best primary source of all, Jung's own statements about the situation. An original mention of Rowland Hazard by Jung, prior to the Bill Wilson letter? That would have been the holy grail I was seeking. My correspondent pointed me to the right volume, and of course, it turned out that Jung did not identify the patient closely enough that we can be sure he meant Rowland. In addition, it is unlikely that Rowland actually toured with the Oxford Group in Europe, although he certainly did in North America. He planned to go on an Oxford Group trip to Europe, which was to include Zurich as well as other cities, but apparently changed his mind at the last moment. My sources for this are the Alexander Smith papers in Princeton and notes in the back of Sam Shoemaker's appointment book, Billy Graham library, Wheaton IL. I assume that Fred W. had also read those passages about the alcoholic and the Oxford Group, as he was aware of something written or said by Jung which indicated that Rowland had returned to drinking after his Oxford Group involvement. I heard Fred say so on the tape of your interview with him, now at the Brown library. So my correspondent was probably not the only one to think that those passages referred to Rowland Hazard. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7367. . . . . . . . . . . . Carl Jung and Dr. Silkworth From: greer21770 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2011 7:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII How much did Dr. Silkworth know of Carl Jung's work before he began treating Bill Wilson? Silkworth's "psychic change" sounds very much like the ideas shown on P27:4 in the Big Book and attributed to Dr. Jung. Did Jung publish his concept of "vital spiritual experiences" before 1934? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7368. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung''s attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism From: David Jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/10/2011 4:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Symbolic Life, by Prof. C. G. Jung You can search and read the majority of the book at the following link. The book was published in 1977 and contains a collection of Jung's writings. The Symbolic Life was published in 1935 and was delivered as a lecture on 5th April 1939, information taken from the myLOC Library of Congress websire. See second link. Hope this helps!!! http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ndI9AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=symbo lic+\ life&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false [13] http://myloc.gov/Exhibitions/redbook/redbookandbeyond/ExhibitObjects/Symboli cLif\ e.aspx [14] Regards David ____________________________________________ http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ndI9AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=symbo lic+\ life&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false [13] The Symbolic Life: Miscellaneous Writings, by Carl Gustav Jung Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1977 - Psychology - 904 pages Originally planned as a brief final volume in the Collected Works, The Symbolic Life has become the most ample volume in the edition, and one of unusual interest. It contains some 160 items spamming sixty years; they include forewords, replies to questionnaires, encyclopedia articles, occasional addresses, and letters on technical subjects. Collection of this material relied on three chief circumstances. After Jung returned from active medical practice, he gave more of his time to writing, and some sixty papers as well as books were written after 1950. Second, recent research has brought to light a number of reviews, reports and articles from the early years of Jung's career. Finally, Jung's files yielded several finished or virtually finished papers that survived in manuscript.Volume 18 includes three longer works: 'The Tavistock Lectures' (1936); 'Symbols and the Interpretation of Dreams' (1961); and 'The Symbolic Life', the transcript of a seminar given in London in 1939. - - - - http://myloc.gov/Exhibitions/redbook/redbookandbeyond/ExhibitObjects/Symboli cLif\ e.aspx [14] The Symbolic Life, by Prof. C. G. Jung In 1937, the Guild of Pastoral Psychology was established in London to encourage the study of psychology among clergy and other spiritual leaders, with particular reference to Jung's work. In 1939, its patron, Jung, delivered this lecture, in which he stated that "Only the symbolic life can express the needs of the soul." The guilds website explains the cover logo: The chalice symbolises the great womb of life. The opposites meet in all their variety and fecundity and are contained until they transform. It is the female and maternal giving birth to life. The snake is that symbol of regeneration because it casts away its old skin, burnt in the fiery tension between opposites, and a new form emerges. C. G. Jung. The Symbolic Life: A Seminar Talk Given on 5th April, 1939, transcript from shorthand notes of Derek Kitchin. London: Guild of Pastoral Psychology, 1954. Rare Book and Special Collections Division, Library of Congress. Courtesy of the Guild of Pastoral Psychology (023.00.00) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7369. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung''s attitude toward religion: Carl Jung, The Red Book From: John Theede . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/10/2011 1:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII While Jung's opinions on organized religion as a cure for alcoholism may be in doubt, his view on the need for a spiritual path for recovery is certainly not. His book: "Modern Man in Search of a Soul" (not published until 1955) clearly reveals his belief that psychology and religion are not exclusive from each other and may be very related. His recently published journal, The Red Book, indicates that this was an interest of his from very early on. It details his own personal "confrontation with the unconscious", written during a period from 1913 to 1930, describes his descent into his unconscious and eventual understanding of the totality of his entire being and his "soul." This was while he was seeing patients in an active practice, begun just after his famous "break" with Freud in 1913. He broke with Freud over his insistence that man was only driven by his repressed desires and emotions. Jung believed that in addition to the "personal unconscious" of Freud, there was a "collective unconscious" that all mankind shared, where archetypes resided and which have historically been represented by mythology and religion. He saw religion as a gateway to this other world of unconscious spirituality? ... search for a soul? Jung was a complex, brilliant man, but he also understood the simplicity and power of a spiritual solution. John T., San Francisco ______________________________________________ CARL JUNG, THE RED BOOK check out publisher's website: http://www.philemonfoundation.org/ https://www.philemonfoundation.org/support/bookstore/ The Red Book By C. G. Jung When Carl Jung embarked on an extended self-exploration he called his “confrontation with the unconscious,” the heart of it was The Red Book, a large, illuminated volume he created between 1914 and 1930. Here he developed his principle theories—of the archetypes, the collective unconscious, and the process of individuation—that transformed psychotherapy from a practice concerned with treatment of the sick into a means for higher development of the personality. While Jung considered The Red Book to be his most important work, only a handful of people have ever seen it. Now, in a complete facsimile and translation, it is available to scholars and the general public. It is an astonishing example of calligraphy and art on a par with The Book of Kells and the illuminated manuscripts of William Blake. This publication of The Red Book is a watershed that will cast new light on the making of modern psychology. 212 color illustrations. ______________________________________________ From The Washington Post's Book World/washingtonpost.com Reviewed by by Michael Dirda Starting in 1912, Carl Gustav Jung (1875-1961), a specialist in the treatment of schizophrenia, began to experience strange dreams and frightening visions. Once when returning home on a train, the 38-year-old Swiss psychologist hallucinated that everywhere he looked he could see nothing but "rivers of blood." In one enigmatic dream a bird-girl hauntingly announced, "Only in the first hour of the night can I become human, while the male dove is busy with the twelve dead"; in another he encountered a wise old man, with wings, holding four keys. After a while, Jung began to carry on conversations with the winged "Philemon" during his daytime walks. Was he going mad? After World War I broke out in 1914, Jung decided with relief that his disturbed imagination had actually been sensing the coming conflict. He also concluded that he had entered what we would now call a midlife crisis, a period in which he was being compelled to reexamine his life and explore his deepest self. To do this, he recorded some of his dreams and visions in what were later called his "Black Books" (which have been available for some while). But he also began a remarkable visionary text, illustrated with his own bizarre paintings: "The Red Book" or "Liber Novus." This he composed during a state of "active imagination" -- that is, of reverie or waking dream. As he said, he wanted to see what would happen when he "switched off consciousness." To the modern reader, the result recalls an allegorical-mythological amalgam of Nietzsche's "Also Sprach Zarathustra," Blake's illuminated poems, Renaissance Neoplatonic dialogue, Eastern scripture, Dante's "Inferno," Yeats's "A Vision" and even the biblical book of Revelation. Jung's pictures sometimes resemble simplified versions of Georgia O'Keeffe's flower paintings and sometimes the symbol-laden images in treatises about alchemy (a subject that Jung was soon to study intently). Throughout, one finds illuminated capitals, interlaced roundels that call to mind stained-glass windows, stars, half moons, swords, crosses, dying animals. Jung also drew circular patterns that he later recognized as versions of the mystical shape called the mandala. "The Red Book" was never published during the psychologist's lifetime, though a few friends and disciples were allowed to examine it. Apparently Jung felt it was not only too personal and quirky for publication, but also that he had already mined the text for the insights set forth in his later writings. As editor Sonu Shamdasani stresses, "The overall theme of the book is how Jung regains his soul and overcomes the contemporary malaise of spiritual alienation. This is ultimately achieved through enabling the rebirth of a new image of God in his soul and developing a new worldview in the form of a psychological and theological cosmogony." After Jung's death, "The Red Book," was safely locked away in a bank deposit box. But, as happens, Jung's heirs and disciples have now decided to bring out this facsimile edition (with English translation), as well as mount an exhibition about "The Red Book" at the Rubin Museum of Art in New York (through January). The resulting volume is certainly one of the most distinctive gift books of the upcoming holiday season. With a rich crimson dust jacket, thick cream-colored paper and calligraphied pages, this huge tome is the size of a lectern Bible and looks like the kind of spell book a wizard might consult. During the initial period covered by "The Red Book" -- mainly 1913 through the 1920s -- Jung broke permanently with the founder of psychoanalysis, Sigmund Freud, and resigned from his teaching position at the University of Zurich. When Jung emerged from this period of crisis, he brought with him the first inklings of his most important contributions to psychology -- positing the existence of a collective unconscious common to all human beings. This primordial ocean within us affects our lives through various universal "archetypes" -- forces or situations that represent our inmost needs, desires and fears. To the most common archetypes, Jung assigned names: anima and animus, the wise old man, the shadow. The anima, for instance, represents the feminine side of a man, his idealized woman, his fatal type. The shadow embodies everyone's dark side, the impulses we suppress, the immoral and evil aspects of our personality. The good Dr. Jekyll's "shadow" was the wicked Mr. Hyde. Gradually, Jung also shifted the focus of psychoanalytic therapy. Early on he had speculated that our libidinal energies are either outer-directed or inner-directed, i.e., people are primarily extroverts or introverts. But this was just a beginning. Where Freud emphasized early childhood and sexuality in his explanation of human neuroses, and Alfred Adler focused on the drive to be superior to others, Jung soon directed his clinical attention to the second half of life and to the process he called individuation. According to editor Shamdasani, "The Red Book" presents "the prototype of Jung's conception of the individuation process." In Jung's view a successful life was all about balance, wholeness. If our lives erred too much in one direction, our unconscious would compensate for the inequality. Thus, in the film "The Blue Angel," the ultra-rationalist professor played by Emil Jannings readily succumbs to naughty Lola, the showgirl played by Marlene Dietrich. Above all, in midlife, a person is called upon to achieve an authentic and balanced self, one that acknowledges every aspect of his or her character. By the age of 40 or 50, one has established a career and nurtured a family, and it is time to turn from the external public life to the needs of the inner man or woman. The process of individuation is essentially the psychological harmonizing of all aspects of the self. When successful, the result is an inner concord, the achievement of a personal serenity that prepares us to accept aging and death. Symbolically, Jung said, the outline of our lives may be glimpsed in the so-called "hero's journey" -- birth in obscurity, various ordeals, confrontation with and defeat of a dragon or similar monster, return home, happy marriage, sacrificial death. This now famous mythic pattern was later elaborated by such Jung-inspired scholars as Otto Rank ("The Myth of the Birth of the Hero"), Lord Raglan ("The Hero") and Joseph Campbell ("The Hero With a Thousand Faces"). As it happens, one must be something of a hero to actually read all of "The Red Book." At times, Jung sounds spiritually anguished: "I am weary, my soul, my wandering has lasted too long, my search for myself outside of myself." At other times, his writing resembles the directions in some fantasy video game: "I am standing in a high hall. Before me I see a green curtain between two columns. The curtain parts easily. . . . In the rear wall, I see a door right and left. . . . I choose the right." At still other times, there are philosophical and religious dialogues of self and soul, or conversations with various mythic characters like Philemon. In short, this is a volume that will be treasured by the confirmed Jungian or by admirers of beautifully made books or by those with a taste for philosophical allegory. Anyone merely interested in Jung's ideas would do better to start with one of the several anthologies of his writings now available. The one compiled by Anthony Storr is particularly good, as is Storr's concise "Modern Masters" guide to the psychologist's thought. bookworld@washpost.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7370. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung''s attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism From: Michael Gwirtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2011 11:42:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII No no no From what source Not who was the source Shakey Mike Gwirtz Sent from my iPhone ________________________________________ On May 8, 2011, at 12:22 PM, Ernest Kurtz wrote: > Source, please? > > ernie kurtz > > - - - - > > On Apr 30, 2011, at 5:12 PM, AAHistoryLovers.member wrote: > > > This is a very important cautionary note for AA historians who wish to portray Carl Jung, in his younger years, as an eager proponent of religious cures as the best and necessary way to treat alcoholism. > > > > Carl Jung's earliest attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism seems to include an acknowledgment that such cures do occur on occasion, but his way of speaking about them is nevertheless not very complementary. > > > > Jung expressed this ambivalence toward the Group in a talk about the > > relationship of religion to mental health around 1941. "A hysterical alcoholic was cured by this Group movement, and they used him as a sort of model and sent him all round Europe, where he confessed so nicely and said that he had done wrong and how he had got cured through the Group movement. And when he had repeated his story twenty, or it may have been fifty, times, he got sick of it and took to drink again. The spiritual sensation had simply faded away. Now what are they going to do with him? They say, now he is pathological, he must go to a doctor. See, in the first stage he has been cured by Jesus, in the second by a doctor! I should and did refuse such a case. I sent the man back to these people and said, 'If you believe that Jesus has cured this man, he will do it a second time. And if he can't do it, you don't suppose that I can do it better than Jesus?' But that is just exactly what they do expect; when a man is pathological, Jesus won't help him but the d octor will."[71] > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7371. . . . . . . . . . . . Pass It On -- Bill W. never a member of AA? From: Bruce C. . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2011 7:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The paper cover of the book "Pass It On" states the following: "Here is Bill W., the man everybody knew and nobody knew .... Bill's character was complex and contradictory. Although we always tried to place him on a pedestal, he strove for genuine humility, declining honors and stressing the spiritual value of anonymity. The co-founder of A.A., he was never a member of A.A., because we never allowed him to be." The question: Why does the book jacket say that Bill W. "was never a member of A.A."? What is the source for this statement? Bruce Cleaver IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7372. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA officially brought to U.S. military bases, epec. in Germany From: joe . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2011 9:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dolores, You may be referring to the Hughes Act signed into law in 1970 by President Nixon. The book the original moderator of the AAHistoryLovers wrote, "With a Lot of Help From Our Friends" details the process and some of its implications.* However, I do not believe AA as an autonomous entity needed a law to officially bring AA onto any military installation. In fact, I have evidence of AA groups on bases throughout the world before then and many of them are well documented in AA Grapevine digital archives in Germany, Guam, Korea, as well as MacDill AFB, Florida where AA was brought by an Army Air Corps Sergeant. Additionally Sgt Bill S. who wrote "On the Military Firing Line in the alcoholism treatment Program" attended and helped start AA meetings on bases well before the Hughes Act.** It is my experience that AA meetings are held on bases when the relationship with the Chaplain Corps and others on base allow adequate meeting space to be rented or available and when access to the base by sufficient alcoholics support keeping the meeting open. It has never in my years of experience been related to legislation. The Hughes Act did open doors to alcoholism treatment opportunities and several high level military personnel sober at the time were instrumental in testifying and supporting the law, which essentially funded and recognized federally alcoholism and support for its treatment. At least that is my perspective of this part of our history. Others here may certainly know more about this fascinating topic. _________________________________________ *Nancy Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of Alcoholism (2003) -- http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html For more on Nancy's life (1929-2005) see http://hindsfoot.org/nomem1.html _________________________________________ **A second edition is currently in press and should appear shortly: William E. Swegan, The Psychology of Alcoholism Copyright © 2011 by Mary Elizabeth Swegan and Glenn F. Chesnut. Originally published © 2003 as On the Military Firing Line in the Alcoholism Treatment Program by Sgt. Bill S. with Glenn F. Chesnut. http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kBS4.html http://hindsfoot.org/kBS5.html http://hindsfoot.org/BSV02Psy.html ========================================= --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Dolores" wrote: > > Does anyone have any more information about the Act of Congress which brought AA officially onto the U.S. military bases, especially in Germany? > > Dolores > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7373. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA officially brought to U.S. military bases, epec. in Germany From: joe . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/13/2011 10:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII One specific piece of evidence that AA met on military bases in Germany pre-Hughes Act was published in Grapvine February 1961. R.S. wrote a letter published in the section called PO Box 1980 "Going a long way to say hello OUR group is situated on an RCAF base in the beautiful Black Forest area of Germany and only a stone's throw across the Rhine river from France. It seems to me that this is the place that all active alcoholics dream of. You are no doubt aware that AA groups over here are rather scarce. The group nearest to us is at the American Army Post some 40 miles from here and the next one about 40 miles past this. Even though the distances between groups are considerable throughout Germany, we still get around. Some of us drove to another group the other evening just to say hello and covered more than 100 miles. R. S. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Dolores" wrote: > > Does anyone have any more information about the Act of Congress which brought AA officially onto the U.S. military bases, especially in Germany? > > Dolores > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7374. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA officially brought to U.S. military bases, epec. in Germany From: Kimball ROWE . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/11/2011 9:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Dolores, Kim here (formerly of Zweibrucken) Checkout "The Comprehensive Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism Prevention, Treatment and Rehabilitation Act of 1970." It was also known as the Hughes Act, promoted by Senator Harold E. Hughes and Marty Mann (Women Suffer Too). I don't recall "Social Actions" or "Alcohol Rehabilitation Centers (ARC)" existing until the early 70s. I do recall that it was common for "Social Actions" and military "Alcohol Rehabilitation Centers (ARC)" to invite AA on base for meetings. From: Dolores Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 2:56 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] AA officially brought to U.S. military bases, epec. in Germany Does anyone have any more information about the Act of Congress which brought AA officially onto the U.S. military bases, especially in Germany? Dolores [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7375. . . . . . . . . . . . Challenging the Second A in A.A. From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/10/2011 7:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Challenging the Second ‘A’ in A.A. In modern recovery, anonymity is viewed as harking to a time when alcoholism was seen as a disgrace. By DAVID COLMAN The New York Times, May 6, 2011 http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/08/fashion/08anon.html?_r=4&pagewanted=1&sq=a nony\ mous&st=cse&scp=6 [15] I’m David Colman, and I’m an alcoholic. In the 15 years since I quit drinking, I’ve neither spoken nor written those words, and now, in doing so, I have more or less violated the first-name-only tenet of Alcoholics Anonymous, the grass-roots organization whose meetings have helped me (and millions of others) quit drinking. As A.A.’s 11th Tradition states, “We need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and films.” Of course, in the meetings I’ve attended over the years, anonymity has always been a kind of collective fiction. Before and after sessions, I find myself talking to people I know from work: greeting an artist I’ve interviewed or a fashion designer I want to; hashing over logistics with a P.R. guy or a magazine editor. At one of these, a big Sunday meeting in Greenwich Village, I’ve been surprised to see well-known actors and authors up on the dais to share their stories — often, I’ve noticed, when they have something to promote, as if it’s just another a stop on the press tour. Frequently, I find friends introducing me to others in the group by my full name, “You know David Colman, don’t you?” More and more, anonymity is seeming like an anachronistic vestige of the Great Depression, when A.A. got its start and when alcoholism was seen as not just a weakness but a disgrace. Over the past few years, so many memoirs about recovery have been released that they constitute a genre unto itself. (Kick Lit?) Moreover, many of them share a format that comes from A.A. itself: most 12-step meetings revolve loosely around what is called a “qualification” — an informal monologue by one member about his or her battle with the bottle. The last few years have brought us fleshed-out qualifications by Augusten Burroughs (“Dry”), Mary Karr (“Lit”), Nikki Sixx (“The Heroin Diaries”), Eric Clapton (“Clapton: The Autobiography”), Nic Sheff (“Tweak”) and James Frey (“A Million Little Pieces,” fabricated, in part, though it was), as well as hundreds of other blurry, cautionary tales of debauchery and redemption. Somewhere, their patron saint — Augustine of Hippo, whose “Confessions” inaugurated the sinner-cum-saint format in A.D. 398 — is smiling. With precious few exceptions, like Thomas De Quincey’s “Confessions of an English Opium-Eater” in 1822 and Lillian Roth’s “I’ll Cry Tomorrow” in 1954, the form barely existed 20 years ago. People seeking help from any number of addictions can find public role models — the quitterati, if you will — like Eminem (the album “Recovery”), Pink (the song “Sober”), and Russell Brand, in the remake of “Arthur” (if they were among the few moviegoers who actually saw it), which seemed in many ways to echo the now-abandoned life he wrote about in “My Booky Wook: A Memoir of Sex, Drugs and Stand-Up.” “I think it’s extremely healthy that anonymity is fading,” said Clancy Martin, a professor of philosophy at the University of Missouri at Kansas City. Mr. Martin broke his anonymity in a 9,000-word essay he wrote in the January issue of Harper’s Magazine detailing his experience getting sober in A.A. and his frustrations with the resistance he met in meetings when trying to talk openly about the psychiatric medications that he, like many recovering addicts, took. But not everyone is happy about this turn toward openness, chief among them A.A. itself, which last year issued an expanded statement on anonymity that has been read at some meetings, adding language about the importance of discretion on social networking Web sites, hoping to ward off breaches both purposeful and accidental. Some people have posted pictures taken at A.A. meetings on their Facebook pages, said a spokeswoman for A.A. who asked not to be identified. In some cases, they may have involuntarily outed other attendees. “We don’t have the wherewithal to deal with the complaints,” she added. “It’s literally in the thousands now.” IN the world of recovery — encompassing the greater community of recovering addicts, which overlaps mightily but not officially with A.A. and its alphabet soup of sister groups — anonymity is a concept that, even if it doesn’t feel bit old-fashioned, can be self-defeating. “Having to deny your own participation in a program that is helping your life doesn’t make sense to me,” said Maer Roshan, the editor of The Fix, a new, hip-feeling Web magazine aimed at the recovery world. “You could be focusing light on something that will make it better and more honest and more helpful.” The idea for The Fix — a mixture of serious journalism, reviews of rehab programs and irreverent features (like one about the “most irritating” 12-step slogans) — came to Mr. Roshan about 18 months ago, when he was living in Los Angeles and out of rehab for alcohol and drug use. Newly exposed to the realm of recovery, Mr. Roshan was struck by how little solid and comprehensive information there was about it. “There are hundreds of books and millions of Web articles, but it’s hard to discern what’s real and what’s agenda,” he said. “It’s so weird. With Yelp, you can find out everything about the pizza place on the corner, but there’s no good, unfiltered, reported information on most rehabs — and this is something you could be spending $100,000 on.” Having started an early mainstream-style gay and lesbian magazine in the early 1990s — the short-lived QW — Mr. Roshan was also struck by the similarities between the two worlds, particularly when it came to the issue of anonymity. “The recovery world is now where the gay world was then,” he said. “Back then, there was a still a stigma to saying you were gay. There was a community, but it was mired in self-doubt and self-hatred, and it’s changed considerably. Not just gay people, but the perception of gay people has changed. There’s a lot of secretiveness and shame in the recovery world, too, but that’s changing.” “There’s not a day that goes by that some major figure doesn’t announce himself as a substance abuser. There’s a community of people who don’t see it as shameful. These are people that have learned from challenges who have a hunger for life and money to spend, and who want to make up for lost time.” But even for people who want to be more open, the exact line of where anonymity begins and ends is not clear-cut. Many people assume that to identify themselves as “sober” or “in recovery” qualifies as a breach. In fact, only identifying yourself as a member of A.A. or other specific 12-step groups does. The topic of clarifying these boundaries was brought up yet again at A.A.’s annual General Service Conference, which took place in New York City last week, with debate focused on how the organization’s “Understanding Anonymity” pamphlet could be best worded to guide those who want to follow the letter or spirit of the principle. This delicate question was the subject of an essay by Susan Cheever in The Fix, titled “Is It Time to Take the Anonymous Out of A.A.?” Given that she has written books about both her alcoholism and that of her father, the writer John Cheever, as well as one on the history of A.A., it’s not hard to guess whether she is an A.A. member. But in her essay, she vented her frustrations with trying to observe the practice of anonymity while trying to speak frankly about addiction. “We are in the midst of a public health crisis when it comes to understanding and treating addiction,” Ms. Cheever wrote. “A.A.’s principle of anonymity may only be contributing to general confusion and prejudice.” Her message wasn’t exactly greeted with open arms, inciting a flood of largely critical comments from the site’s readers. (One of the tamer ones: “Without ANONYMITY, A.A. will not continue to exist and help millions of alcoholics and addicts all over the world!”) Still, others have embraced the path of full disclosure and been rewarded. Since becoming sober in 2006, Patrick J. Kennedy, the former Rhode Island congressman and a son of the late Edward M. Kennedy, has acknowledged that he attends A.A. meetings while also actively campaigning for legislation to make addiction be held to the same standard of insurance coverage as other mental health issues. (The Mental Health Parity and Addiction Equity Act, included as a rider on the Troubled Asset Relief Program, was signed into law in October 2008.) “The personal identification that Jim and I brought to this issue as recovering alcoholics gave us a place from which to speak about this,” Mr. Kennedy said, referring to former Representative Jim Ramstad, Republican of Minnesota, his co-sponsor of the bill (and for a time, his sponsor in A.A.). “Stigma here is our biggest barrier, and knowledge and understanding are the antidote to stigma.” Molly Jong-Fast, 32, a New York novelist who became sober in A.A. 12 years ago, agrees. “It’s seems crazy that we can’t just be out with it, in this day and age,” Ms. Jong-Fast said. “I don’t want to have to hide my sobriety; it’s the best thing about me.” Some are trying to find a middle ground between secrecy and full disclosure. Faces and Voices of Recovery, a group based in Washington, has recruited people to speak publicly about being sober while nominally retaining their anonymity, a process they call “recovery messaging.” Their goal is to stress the positive aspects of sobriety and counter negative public perceptions of recovered addicts and alcoholics. “I remember growing up, if you saw someone on TV who was in recovery, you couldn’t see their face or their voice was disembodied,” said Pat Taylor, the group’s executive director. “But there’s nothing that prohibits people from talking about recovery as long as they don’t mention their actual support group. And the other thing is that there are so many ways that people are getting into recovery and sustaining it. It’s not just one path.” In the professional recovery world, where one might expect to find a consensus, the debate can be the fiercest of all. Some believe that more people in recovery should go public. “I violate my anonymity daily,” said Rick Ohrstrom, the chairman of C4 Recovery Solutions, a consultancy firm. “I am 25 years in recovery, and have been out there fighting for the rights of people in recovery, and I’m sick and tired of people in A.A. meetings not lifting a finger to do anything about it. They hide behind anonymity — if you don’t tell anyone else that recovery works, that’s what you’re doing. That’s not how A.A. got to be where it was.” Others insist on the importance of privacy. “Our effectiveness to reach the still-suffering alcoholic is better protected by anonymity, even today, than not having anonymity at the public level,” said Dr. Andrea Barthwell, the chief executive of Two Dreams Outer Banks, a rehab center in Corolla, N.C. “It’s possible that anonymity would be lifted sometime in the future, but there’s no one that’s made that compelling argument yet — and it can’t be done from outside the fellowship.” But even some who have faithfully observed the practice, myself included, have a suspicion that, if staying anonymous is not an outdated (and sometimes absurd) technicality, it is at least a choice that everyone should have. “I am increasingly uncomfortable with this level of dishonesty,” Ms. Cheever said in a telephone interview last month. “This dancing around and hedging, figuring out ways of saying it that aren’t really saying it, so that people in recovery know what I am talking about — all the code words. I am sure this is not what Bill intended." Having written a biography of Bill — that is, Bill Wilson, one of the founders of A.A. — Ms. Cheever is in a position to say what the idea of anonymity was intended to do as few are. First and foremost, anonymity was meant to shield those struggling to become sober from the stigma of being an alcoholic, a stigma far more marked 75 years ago when there was little research on alcoholism as a medical condition over which its sufferers had little control. These are the most common considerations when weighing the reasons for anonymity. But the second part of the ideal, spelled out in A.A.’s 12th Tradition, makes the case for observing anonymity within A.A. itself — and it’s worth noting that there’s little, if any, dissension on this subject. Unlike the more practical 11th Tradition, aimed at the outer world, the 12th Tradition takes a crack at our far more problematic inner world. Stating (somewhat obliquely) that “anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities, ” it’ s about cultivating the often overlooked idea of humility, an excellent means for quieting the now-me-more urges that bedevil addictive people more than their peers. In this light, anonymity is a token, a symbolic gesture, but we are symbolic people. Even shedding your last name can go a surprisingly long way toward shedding the weight of being yourself. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7376. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA brought to U.S. military bases From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2011 3:25:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For what it is worth, there was an AA meeting on March Air Force Base in Riverside, California from 1945 until the mid 1960's. The location of the meeting on the base changed from the cafeteria to the Chapel several times, which leads us to believe the meeting was growing and shrinking like most meetings over those years. The Area 9 Archives could never determine who was responsible for starting that meeting, but it was believed the base Chaplain had something to do with it. It was said the Chaplain attended the meetings and observed from a distance but never really participated. Also from what I was told, it was hard for anyone to get on to March Air Force Base because the time period was at the end of WW II.. In 1945 this base would have been in the middle of nowhere, surrounded by acres and acres of orange groves, desert, and mountains. But AA members not in the Air Force, and who made the drive, were allowed to attend the meeting. Members parked their cars at the front gate and someone would drive to the gate pick you up and return you to the gate after the meeting. The base closed in 1993, and by the late 1990's while serving as the Area 9 archivist I went on base to take photos of the buildings that the meetings were held, but they had been torn down. Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7377. . . . . . . . . . . . Passing of Dr. Bill D. of the International Doctors in AA From: bsdds@comcast.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2011 4:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I regret to announce the passing of Bill Daniel(s) M.D. (I never really knew whether his last name had an s on the end). Bill D was a physician who had great impact on the development of IDAA or International Doctors in Alcoholics Anonymous. My sponsor, George T., was the dean of a medical school in the American Southwest in the 80's. He took me to my first IDAA meeting circa 1978 where I met Bill D. (not to be confused with the Bill D of the Big Book). Bill was a gruff old coot who put on the IDAA meeting in Morristown New Jersey every year. He and George, my sponsor, came up with the idea to put the IDAA shindig on in conjunction with CME for docs. Not only would the AA meetings have the twelve steps and traditions, but with participating speakers of different disciplines; and Dr's would get needed CME, not to mention the visualization of others in the health professions. They brought in so many great folks from within the program of AA but also top dog educators who spoke of the implications and complications of alcoholism on the body. I am sure Ernie Kurtz knew him since I recall Ernie participated in one or more of those IDAA meetings. Due to Bill's health, the IDAA meetings were moved to Texas. A couple of them were in San Antonio at the older Riverwalk Marriott, and then in El Paso where Tech had a campus. Bill let go of his leadership of IDAA, and the annual meetings took on different directions ending up in various annual destinations. Both Bill and my sponsor, George T., emphasized that IDAA was not really an AA meeting. "Regular" AA had no substitute and IDAA was just a little "gravy." When I moved to Charlottesville, I had occasion to speak with a fellow at a meeting who asked if I knew who Bill Daniel(s) was. He said he had built a house for him and Stella in Free Union, Virginia (this was Stella his wife, who Bill gave credit for saving his life). I tried to get in touch with him a few years ago more than once. I was told he was not in good health and Stella was like a mother bear and her cubs with him. I wrote him a letter telling him how much I appreciated all he did for me and my family but never knew if he got it. I was told he passed away a few months ago at the age of 94. To me, this guy was a giant in coordinating and bringing acceptability within the medical community regarding the recognition and treatment of alcoholism and addiction in the 1960's, 70's and 80's. I am saddened by his passing but in awe of his work. Bob Schultz Charlottesville, Virginia (bsdds at comcast.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7378. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA brought to Germany: Zweibruecken From: Dolores . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2011 4:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Kim, thanks for your information. I have the history of AA in Zweibruecken. Dolores - - - - THE HUGHES ACT -- 1970 From the Bishop of Books FIFTY BOOKS TRACING AA'S HISTORY http://hindsfoot.org/fiftybk.html *Nancy Olson, "With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of Alcoholism" (2003) http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html **Sally Brown and David R. Brown, "Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous" (2001) http://www.sallyanddavidbrown.com/ http://www.sallyanddavidbrown.com/bios.htm ____________________________________________ Original message #7374 from Kimball ROWE Hi Dolores, Kim here (formerly of Zweibrucken) Checkout "The Comprehensive Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism Prevention, Treatment and Rehabilitation Act of 1970." It was also known as the Hughes Act, promoted by Senator Harold E. Hughes* and Marty Mann** (Women Suffer Too). I don't recall "Social Actions" or "Alcohol Rehabilitation Centers (ARC)" existing until the early 70s. I do recall that it was common for "Social Actions" and military "Alcohol Rehabilitation Centers (ARC)" to invite AA on base for meetings. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7379. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA officially brought to U.S. military bases, epec. in Germany From: Dolores . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2011 4:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Joe, There have been AA meetings in Germany since 1948. I used the word "officially" because after the Hughes act was signed, treatment centers were set up for the US servicemen on the military bases, the best known being that of Bad Cannstatt near Stuttgart. Four such treatment centers were set up in Germany. The Chaplains and the MDs supported the alcoholics before this Act of Congress. The meetings were listed at GSO New York as Loner meetings. You could almost say AA was an open secret Fellowship before 1970. As you wrote it is a fascinating topic. Thanks for your information. Dolores ----- Original Message ----- From: joe To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 3:16 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: AA officially brought to U.S. military bases, epec. in Germany Dolores, You may be referring to the Hughes Act signed into law in 1970 by President Nixon. The book the original moderator of the AAHistoryLovers wrote, "With a Lot of Help From Our Friends" details the process and some of its implications.* However, I do not believe AA as an autonomous entity needed a law to officially bring AA onto any military installation. In fact, I have evidence of AA groups on bases throughout the world before then and many of them are well documented in AA Grapevine digital archives in Germany, Guam, Korea, as well as MacDill AFB, Florida where AA was brought by an Army Air Corps Sergeant. Additionally Sgt Bill S. who wrote "On the Military Firing Line in the alcoholism treatment Program" attended and helped start AA meetings on bases well before the Hughes Act.** It is my experience that AA meetings are held on bases when the relationship with the Chaplain Corps and others on base allow adequate meeting space to be rented or available and when access to the base by sufficient alcoholics support keeping the meeting open. It has never in my years of experience been related to legislation. The Hughes Act did open doors to alcoholism treatment opportunities and several high level military personnel sober at the time were instrumental in testifying and supporting the law, which essentially funded and recognized federally alcoholism and support for its treatment. At least that is my perspective of this part of our history. Others here may certainly know more about this fascinating topic. _________________________________________ *Nancy Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of Alcoholism (2003) -- http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html For more on Nancy's life (1929-2005) see http://hindsfoot.org/nomem1.html _________________________________________ **A second edition is currently in press and should appear shortly: William E. Swegan, The Psychology of Alcoholism Copyright © 2011 by Mary Elizabeth Swegan and Glenn F. Chesnut. Originally published © 2003 as On the Military Firing Line in the Alcoholism Treatment Program by Sgt. Bill S. with Glenn F. Chesnut. http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kBS4.html http://hindsfoot.org/kBS5.html http://hindsfoot.org/BSV02Psy.html ========================================= --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Dolores" wrote: > > Does anyone have any more information about the Act of Congress which brought AA officially onto the U.S. military bases, especially in Germany? > > Dolores > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7380. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pass It On -- Bill W. never a member of AA? From: jaxena77 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2011 1:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill wrote a Grapevine article called "Why Can't We Join A.A., Too?" in the October 1947 Grapevine. I think it explains what the author of Pass It On meant, and I think it is a poignant and true statement. Full text below, copied from Grapevine digital archives. Jackie B *** Why Can't We Join A.A., Too? Dear A.A.s: Dr. Bob and I have a problem. We'd like to share it frankly with you. In actuality, A.A. has a score of "founders," men and women without whose special contributions A.A. might never have been. But somehow the title, "founder," seems to have attached itself almost solely to Dr. Bob and me--a phenomenon due perhaps to the general lack of information about our early days. This sentiment, though it prompts A.A.s to set us somewhat apart from the whole, is deeply touching to us both. We surely have more reasons for gratitude than anyone in the world. But we are beginning to ask ourselves if this over-emphasis will be good for A.A. in the long run. Is so much sentiment for "the founders" entirely wise? Perhaps we A.A.s can become a new kind of human society. To a degree hitherto unknown, A.A. may be able to function upon the power of its own fundamental principles rather than upon the prestige or inspiration of a highly personalized leadership. Thus the whole can become of transcending importance over any part; continued unity and success can then mostly depend upon God as we understand him working vitally in thousands of hearts rather than a few. Deep down, I think we A.A.s have begun to sense this magnificent possibility. The widening conviction that active leadership ought to be transitory and rotating; that each A.A. group with respect to its own affairs needs be accountable only to its own conscience; that our committees and boards are really servants, not officials; that we, as a movement, ought to remain poor, so avoiding the risks of disrupting wealth; that as individual members of A.A. we should remain anonymous before the general public--these are the signs and portents of a unique future. Such concepts certainly leave little room for a prestige-clothed leadership. "But," some will say, "how shall we make such a vision actually work when most societies have to rely so greatly on management, money, and heavily-publicized leadership exercising powerful personal suasion?" Yet incredibly, we are beginning to see our vision come alive. Even though we persist in looking with misgiving on any large accumulation of money or personal prestige in the name of Alcoholics Anonymous, we do continue to grow despite the absence of those sometimes unstable factors upon which other human endeavors must so often depend. Why is this possible? Is it because we are a superior people? Well, hardly! Far from being better than average, we are surely much more fallible. Strangely enough, our group strength seems to stem from our individual and ever potential weakness. We are alcoholics. Even though now recovered, we are never too far removed from the possibility of fresh personal disaster. Each knows he must observe a high degree of honesty, humility, and tolerance, or else drink again. For us of A.A. to drink is to die; to love God and fellow man is to live. Under such potent conditions the impossible has become possible. When each A.A.'s life literally depends upon his unselfish service to others, when false pride, self-pity, or unhealthy self-seeking is almost certain to be unmercifully chastised by John Barleycorn, he needs but a minimum of man-made rules or inspired leaders to hold him on the right course. Nor for long is he apt to continue anything harmful to A.A. unity. He knows so well that we A.A.s shall have to hang together--or else hang separately! At first living the spiritual life because he must, he presently lives it because he wants to. Such is the truly providential circumstance in which we all find ourselves; that is why we are beginning to see new values in A.A. We perceive in our midst a spiritual realm which can be little disturbed by the distractions of wealth or self-serving egocentricity. Against this background let's have another look at Dr. Bob and me. Seemingly, the larger A.A. grows, the more our particular part in its creation and continuance tends to be emphasized. Our status remains exceptional. Nearly all other early A.A.s have long since slipped over to the "sidelines" where, if they have retained the confidence of all, they are frequently consulted. By common consent they have become unofficial coaches, reservoirs of longer experience, to be sought out in the pinches. Their Alma Mater is now served by new teams. These too will have their day on the field, then finally retire. This is, we think, as it ought to be. Dr. Bob and I feel this sound doctrine should apply to us as well. There seems no good reason to make an exception of "the founders." The more we early members continuously occupy the center of the A.A. stage the more we shall set risky precedents for a highly personalized and permanent leadership. To insure well A.A.'s future, is this not the very thing we should carefully avoid? Of course, Dr. Bob and I do not want to ignore any special responsibility remaining still upon us. Quite the contrary; our principal mission today is probably that of helping A.A. form a sound tradition. But how, for example, can we advocate the traditional principle of rotating leadership if we allow the belief to grow that we ought to be permanent exceptions ourselves? Of course, we cannot. Take, for instance, my own situation. It is known that my health is recently improved; that I'm going to a large regional conference. Instantly come warm but most urgent invitations to speak at gatherings all over North America. Most A.A.s being good salesmen, the pressure on me is truly enormous. While it's a wonderful feeling to be so much wanted, these bids do leave me in the middle of an acute dilemma--a real heart-breaker. How, in fairness, can I speak at ten anniversary dinners and refuse 90; how can I make special recordings or telephone talks for all these occasions? Or, again, how can I respond to all the mail I receive; how can I advise hundreds of individuals and groups about their special problems? It is a physical impossibility. Even though I could somehow accomplish all these things, and so remain in the center of A.A. affairs indefinitely, would that be best for A.A. in the long run? Surely you will agree it would not. So the problem of Dr. Bob and me comes down to this: We shall somehow have to decide just what few things we are still specially fitted to do for A.A. and, within the limits of our health, set about them. For my part, I feel I ought to do much more writing: more A.A.Grapevine pieces, more pamphlets and possibly a new book dealing with the vital matter of A.A. unity. This material ought to be widely informative of our developing tradition and of the little understood A.A. General Service Center. Occasionally I would like to appear at the larger regional gatherings for the purpose of discussing these matters with as many A.A.s as possible. Over the next two or three years it will be desirable to broaden the base of our General Service Center here at New York so that it can include a yearly meeting of out-of-town A.A.s with the trustees of The Alcoholic Foundation, the A.A. General Office staff, and The A.A. Grapevine editors, this to be called The General Service Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous. To help construct such a conference will be a real task which may eventually require us to visit a number of our large A.A. centers the country over. For the good of A.A. as a whole these seem the things most needful to be done. If these projects are ever to be finished, I'm sure we can do little else. To succeed we shall need real freedom of decision and few diversions. Hence, we beg your whole-hearted cooperation. Though these assignments are still before us, Dr. Bob and I are now going to confess a deep yearning. As private citizens of A.A., we shall often wish to come and go among you like other people, without any special attention. And while we would like always to keep the wonderful satisfaction of having been among the originators, we hope you will begin to think of us as early A.A.s only, not as "founders." So, can't we join A.A., too? Bill W. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce C." wrote: > > The paper cover of the book "Pass It On" states the following: > > "Here is Bill W., the man everybody knew and nobody knew .... Bill's character was complex and contradictory. Although we always tried to place him on a pedestal, he strove for genuine humility, declining honors and stressing the spiritual value of anonymity. The co-founder of A.A., he was never a member of A.A., because we never allowed him to be." > > The question: Why does the book jacket say that Bill W. "was never a member of A.A."? What is the source for this statement? > > Bruce Cleaver > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7381. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pass It On -- Bill W. never a member of AA? From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2011 8:35:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Baileygc23, Keith "truthfromgood12," Donald Mansell, "mark_area56" - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) On October 1947, Bill W wrote an article in the AA Grapevine entitled "Why Can't We Join AA Too?" http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7380 - - - - From: "truthfromgood12" (kroloson at mindspring.com) Bruce, I believe the writer's intent was to express that because of Bill Wilson's fame, he could never enjoy the 'luxury' of anonymity, or put another way, he never benefited from what he and Dr. Bob pioneered for the rest of us. Additionally there is, to me, an implication that he was never 'one among many', or a peer among peers, because he was held up as a leader, pioneer and frankly, most were in awe of him whenever he was encountered, from what I read. You know, 'a legend in our midst' kind of thing. Lastly it occurs to me that, from what I've read, he didn't like to go to meetings in the final years because of this celebrity status. Although it was possible at times for him to attend this meeting or that meeting and go unrecognized in earlier years, his photographs were so widespread that he couldn't go to an AA meeting incognito or anonymously! It is a similar problem for rock stars and actors and politicians, who often attend special meetings set up to protect them from their own celebrity and allow them to be safe for a little while. In His Service, KEITH - - - - From: "mark_area56" (mark at go-concepts.com) I just looked at my copy of "Pass it On" and there is one small thing missing in the statement. The word "member" is italicized, and that made the whole thing clearer in my mind. We always regarded Bill as the "co-founder" and never just a "member" - I read that to mean that WE never let Bill be just a member, WE always treated him as much more than that - our co-founder. Mel B. is still with us, maybe he can respond. In service, Mark - - - - From: "donaldl.mansell" (donaldl.mansell at yahoo.com) Gee, I thought you were a member if you said so. Doesn't matter what others "allow" us. ___________________________________________ Original message #7371 from "Bruce C." (brucecl2002 at yahoo.com) The paper cover of the book "Pass It On" states the following: "Here is Bill W., the man everybody knew and nobody knew .... Bill's character was complex and contradictory. Although we always tried to place him on a pedestal, he strove for genuine humility, declining honors and stressing the spiritual value of anonymity. The co-founder of A.A., he was never a member of A.A., because we never allowed him to be." The question: Why does the book jacket say that Bill W. "was never a member of A.A."? What is the source for this statement? Bruce Cleaver IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7382. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Challenging the Second A in A.A. From: Ann Sjostrom . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2011 4:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Ann Sjostrom in Sweden, Tom Hickcox in Baton Rouge, Jim Robbins, George Cleveland, Jonathan Lanham-Cook, Baileygc - - - - From: Ann Sjostrom (ann.two at gmail.com) Lots of comments on the New York Times web site on this one and many provided an understanding of anonymity that the article has trouble expressing. THE ORIGINAL ARTICLE: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/08/fashion/08anon.html?_r=4&pagewanted=1&sq=a nony\ mous&st=cse&scp=6 [15] COMMENTS ON IT: http://community.nytimes.com/comments/www.nytimes.com/2011/05/08/fashion/08a non.\ html [16] Ann in Sweden - - - - From: Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) From a favorite daily mailing, "When I read the NYTimes story, one of the thoughts that I had about the writer was, 'and if he ever gets to the sixth and seventh steps, he might want to look at ______.' (I'm sure each of you can fill in the blank) 'and it wouldn't be so bad if he read the _and Twelve_ either!"' Tommy H in Baton Rouge - - - - From: "Jim Robbins" (jrobbins1123 at yahoo.com) Someone will need to enlighten me here. The only reason I can even remotely think why anyone would need or want to break their anonymity in AA is ego. AA works and it works well and has for many years. What possible reason can anyone think of that would require a change in our traditions? Wanna sell more books?, Wanna be special and unique? Wanna be politically in tune with the recovery industry? I'm certain I'm not very well informed on this matter. Help me understand this issue more clearly. Page 84 in 12 Steps and 12 Traditions speaks about rationalizing our actions. The Big Book clearly states that selfishness/self-centeredness is a problem. And I believe a conference action requires 75% of all registered groups voting yes to change even a comma or period in Book, Steps or Traditions. Jim R PPG Poulsbo, Washington - - - - From: George Cleveland (clevelandgeorgem at gmail.com) I am reminded of the famous instructions on bottles of the iconic Dr. Bronner's Peppermint Soap: Dilute. Dilute. Dilute. george cleveland - - - - From: Jonathan Lanham-Cook (lanhamcook at gmail.com) I fear Mr. Colman has possibly missed the point? - Whatever the second 'A' was in the beginning it evolved into the backbone of the fellowship and without it we are nothing. Thank God for Anonymity Jonathan L-C :-) - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) Many years ago a book was written by a famous actress, Lillian Roth, entitled, "I'll Cry Tomorrow" (1954). She is supposed to have gone back to drinking. So all this talk about anonymity breaking being new isn't new. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7383. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: challenging the second A in AA -- this isn''t AA history From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2011 3:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Members, The article below was sent to me right after it was published. I do not believe this is AA history. The article contains inaccuracies, conjecture, name-dropping and outright incorrect interpretations of AA traditions and principals. I am troubled anytime someone is quoted as telling me what THEY think "Bill intended." If our members really want to see a cross section of what AA members think about this topic, I would suggest their time would be better spent reading the posted comments (many by anonymous AA members) FOLLOWING this piece of "journalism." In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7384. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pass It On -- Bill W. never a member of AA? From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/18/2011 4:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Pardon, but I have to toss a memory into this discussion. Bill was of course deceased before I began my research into AA history in the mid-1970s, but Lois Wilson was vibrantly alive and we had several interviews at Stepping Stones. One of quite a few vivid memories: I was questioning Lois about this -- had Bill ever been able to be a real "member" of AA since he was so generally recognized as "founder"? Lois granted that it was difficult, though Bill was pretty much accepted on an equal basis in the local group there in Bedford. "But, traveling," I pressed: "or did his earlier travels mean that he was generally recognized everywhere?" Lois granted that that was pretty much how it was, but I saw that little smile beginning at the corners of her mouth, a smile that I had learned meant there was something more here. So I pressed on: "Well, did Bill ever have the experience of going to a meeting where nobody recognized him?" "Yes," Lois allowed. That did happen on rare occasion. After a pause I pursued, "And how did he react to that?" "It really pissed him off," the sweet widow replied with an appreciative chuckle, obviously relishing the recollection. ernie kurtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7385. . . . . . . . . . . . Groups and contacts where AA archivists can meet From: lanhamcook . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/18/2011 4:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi - I've recently taken on the role of archivist for Avon North intergroup in the UK and am kind of flying a little blind as to how best to organise the existing material. I'm looking for ways to link up with other archivists for support. What are some of the groups and websites where I could find other AA archivists to talk with? Many thanks Jonathan (lanhamcook at yahoo.co.uk) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7386. . . . . . . . . . . . Ron Roizen: Marty Mann and the disease concept From: trysh travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/20/2011 10:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ron Roizen has an article out today on *Points: The Blog of the Alcohol and Drugs History Society,* talking about Marty Mann and the Disease Concept in early AA History. Available here: http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/cherry-picking-the-history-of -the\ -alcoholism-movement-1/. [17] Trysh Travis ____________________________________________ "Cherry-Picking the History of the Alcoholism Movement" (1) Posted on May 20, 2011 by ronroizen9 in Points: The Blog of the Alcohol and Drugs History Society Sometimes useful pieces of historical evidence may be found lying around in plain sight. A case in point concerns the relationship between Alcoholics Anonymous and the disease concept of alcoholism. In 2002, Ernest Kurtz, A.A.'s distinguished academic historian, published a well-argued article asserting that the disease concept of alcoholism was not one of A.A.'s core philosophical commitments (2). Yet -- as Kurtz also noted -- the disease concept has been part of A.A.'s operational vernacular for a long time. Sociologist Annette R. Smith http://hindsfoot.org/kas1.html has recently suggested that the acceptance of the disease concept is a crucial step in a new A.A. member's conversion to an alcoholic identity (3). If both Kurtz and Smith are correct -- and I believe they are -- then how did an idea that is not part of the group's core philosophy nevertheless become a central element in A.A.'s actual praxis? Haggard and Jellinek's 1942 Opus (Never to be a Major Motion Picture) A key part of the answer lies in the promotional campaign of Mrs. Marty Mann. In 1944, Mann was employed by Howard W. Haggard and E.M. Jellinek at the Yale Center of Alcohol Studies to promote the disease concept to the American public. The Yale group's ultimate aim for Mann's campaign was the establishment of a single-disease advocacy organization for alcoholism treatment and research enterprises -- an organization not unlike the American Cancer Society or the American Lung Association. This advocacy group, Yale leadership hoped, would in due course provide a stream of donations for the support of their own alcohol-related research. The Yale group's plan for Mann doubtless sprang in large part from a report prepared by Dwight Anderson for the Research Council on Problems of Alcohol, later published in a 1942 article titled "Alcohol and Public Opinion" (4). Anderson argued that the new scientific approach to alcohol-related problems proffered by the Research Council (and, by extension, the Yale group) needed a new symbol to differentiate itself unmistakably from the old vying "dry" and "wet" camps of the previous era. The idea that the alcoholic was "a sick man," Anderson contended, would perform very nicely as that new symbol. Yet Mann's campaign was dogged by a crucial ambiguity. She was widely known within and without A.A. as a member of that organization; as Michelle McClellan has recently pointed out here, she was sometimes touted as A.A.'s first woman member. She was also a popular and beloved figure and speaker within A.A. Not surprisingly, therefore, it was not always clear to listeners whether her disease concept advocacy was an element of A.A.'s belief system, or whether she was speaking entirely on behalf of her National Committee for Education on Alcoholism (NCEA), or the Yale group. Either way, the disease concept became a cause célèbre in the late 1940s and over the decade of the 1950s. But what might have been Mann's view of alcoholism qua disease prior to 1944 and before she was hired by the Yale group? As it happens, there is a convenient source that sheds a little light on this question. Journalist Jack Alexander published a celebrated article on A.A. in the March 1, 1941 issue of The Saturday Evening Post. More than any other previous event, Alexander's article put A.A. on the map of U.S. national consciousness. An A.A. General Service Office newsletter recently noted that following the Post article's publication, "⦠A.A. would suddenly triple its membership and be well on the way to becoming a national institution" (5). Is That You, Marty Mann? Mrs. Marty Mann made a cameo appearance in Alexander's famous 1941 article, under the pseudonym "Sarah Martin." Before I summarize Mann's cameo, however, a word of caution is in order. Whatever Mann conveyed in Alexander's article was of course filtered through Alexander's consciousness, his goals for his article, and his prose preferences. Hence, Mann's remarks and perspective should be evaluated with a dose of wariness on the reader's part. That said, it is notable that the word "disease" did not appear in Mann's cameo; nor did she use the occasion to advance the disease concept of alcoholism. Neither, incidentally, did the word "disease" appear anywhere in Alexander's 6,500-plus word article; nor did the words "malady," "illness," or "sickness"(6). I don't think it's too much of a stretch to believe that the Marty Mann of the post-1944 disease concept campaign -- had she been magically transported back in time to her 1941 interview with Alexander -- would have enthusiastically hawked the disease concept to him. Alexander confined his account of Mann to her drinking history, her futile efforts to limit her drinking, and her descent into the sequelae of alcohol excess. His account included mention of Mann's jump or fall from a first floor window, landing face-first on a Paris sidewalk. This event required "⦠six months of bone setting, dental work, and plastic surgery." Alexander's narrative handling of Mann's story fit into his overall approach to the Alcoholics Anonymous phenomenon. Alexander stressed the prickliness and resistance-to-change of alcoholics as personality characteristics, their emotional immaturity, their escapism through alcohol, and, as well, the all-important knowingness of other (now recovering) alcoholics in breaking through the active alcoholic's barriers to recovery. About the commencement of Mann's alcoholic recovery Alexander wrote only this: Up to this point she had diagnosed her trouble as a nervous breakdown. Not until she had committed herself to several sanitariums did she realize, through reading, that she was an alcoholic.(7) On advice of a staff doctor, she got in touch with an Alcoholics Anonymous group. Today, she has another good job and spends many of her nights sitting on hysterical women drinkers to prevent them from diving out of windows. In her late thirties, Sarah Martin is an attractively serene woman. The Paris surgeons did handsomely by her. Kurtz's analysis of the disease concept's relationship to A.A. thought traced the history of the concept's appearance in authoritative A.A. publications or pronouncements. Sometimes it was the absence of any mention of the disease concept that Kurtz noted. He gave particular attention to the writings of Bill Wilson. Kurtz argued that a careful examination of these sources clearly evidenced A.A.'s preference for a three-fold vision of alcoholism as a physical, mental, and spiritual problem -- with an emphasis on A.A.'s preoccupation with the spiritual dimension. Mann's cameo in Alexander's famous article did not fit the "sampling frame" Kurtz employed in gathering data for his analysis -- Alexander's article could hardly be considered an authoritative A.A. publication. Yet, Alexander's article and Mann's cameo provide a nice footnote to the case Kurtz made. Mann's cameo tends to support the view that her vigorous promotion of the disease concept emerged in 1944 and not directly out of her early A.A. experience (8). Too bad we don't have more primary material on Mann's views on the disease concept of alcoholism before 1944. In any case, the fame of Alexander's 1941 article within A.A. circles will, I trust, justify my suggestion that Mann's cameo was "lying around in plain sight" for use in relation to Kurtz's bold thesis. Notes: (1) I thank Bill White for his insightful comments on a previous draft of this commentary. (2) Kurtz, Ernest, "Alcoholics Anonymous and the Disease Concept of Alcoholism," Alcoholism Treatment Quarterly 20 (3&4):5-39, 2002. (3) Smith, Annette R., The Social World of Alcoholics Anonymous: How it Works New York, Lincoln, Shanghai: iUniverse, Inc. 2007. (4) Anderson, Dwight, "Alcohol and Public Opinion," Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol 3:376-392, 1942. (5) "Jack Alexander Gave A.A. Its First Big Boost," Box 459[:] News and Notes from the General Service Office of A.A., 54(1):4-5, (February-March) 2008. (6) Kurtz (2002), in another connection, made the same point about Alexander's article. (7) Incidentally, I have disputed Mann's claims regarding when she first heard the term or learned about "alcoholism." See: "Where Did Mrs. Marty Mann Learn Alcoholism Was A Disease and Why Should It Matter?" Ranes Report: Roizen's Alcohol News & Editorial Service No. 7 [1997]. (8) For more on the relationship between of Anderson's 1942 article and the development of Mann's campaign, see my "In Search of the Mysterious Mrs. Marty Mann: An Evolving and (Hopefully) Collaborative Enterprise," n.d., at http://www.roizen.com/ron/mann.htm IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7387. . . . . . . . . . . . Disease concept: diffusion and confusion query From: Ron Roizen . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/25/2011 11:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, A colleague and I have been having a little debate. I wonder if the list would care to comment on these two questions: (1) How much, if at all, did the rise to prominence of the disease concept of alcoholism in the late 1940s and the decade of the 1950s percolate into the belief system of A.A. members and their conceptions of alcoholism? (2) How much, if at all, did confusion surrounding Mrs. Marty Mann's disease-concept campaign of advocacy in this period spread commitment to the disease concept in A.A.'s membership? By "confusion" I mean chiefly that A.A. members may not have been entirely certain whether Mann's pro-disease concept advocacy was a legitimate part of A.A.'s belief system or whether she was promoting the concept solely for the purposes of her National Committee for Education on Alcoholism (later NCA)? Comments on these questions much appreciated! Ron Roizen Wallace, Idaho (ronroizen at frontier.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7388. . . . . . . . . . . . The letters cited in the book As Bill Sees It From: Maria Orozco . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/22/2011 4:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII in the book As Bill Sees It, on page 198 at the bottom, it has Letter, 1958. Can anyone please tell me where can I find out more about this letter? That is, who wrote it, to whom it was written, and the rest of what was in that letter? Thanks, Maria IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7389. . . . . . . . . . . . Connections between Bill W., Lucille Kahn, and Edgar Cayce? From: kodom2545 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/23/2011 4:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have more questions about Lucille Kahn and Edgar Cayce and their association with LSD experiments and psychic experiments, together with the possible connections between Bill Wilson and some of what Kahn and Cayce were involved in. In Silkworth.net at http://silkworth.net/aahistory_names/namesd.html there is a passage on Devoe B. which talks about these people. I don't quite know what this entry in Silkworth.net means, or who Devoe B. was. But I am curious as to whether some of the connections here might tell us more of some possible connection between Bill Wilson and the famous psychic Edgar Cayce. The Silkworth.net passage reads as follows: "Devoe B. - Husband of Anne B.; meditation group met his house Chappaqua; Friday meeting once help Bill cope isolation A.A.; Bill, Lois, Nell Wing, Devoe B., Gerald Heard, Aldous Huxley, Dave D. David & Lucille Kahn, Edgar Cayce attended (G 75-76)" ____________________________________________ From G.C. the moderator: the reference to G 75-76 at the bottom is presumably a reference to pages 75-76 of Nell Wing's book, "Grateful to Have Been There," but apparently to the first (1992) edition, since I cannot find this material on those pages of my second (1998) edition. For more on Lucille Kahn see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucille_Kahn For more on Edgar Cayce see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Cayce - - - - Message #6934 from (kodom2545 at yahoo.com) I was reading a biography of the American psychic Edgar Cayce (American Prophet by Sidney Kirkpatrick) and I came across a couple of familiar names who were considered among his best friends. Can anyone help me obtain information on Lucille or her husband Dave's relationship with Bill Wilson. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucille_Kahn Also, in Kirkpatrick's book Mr. Cayce was said to have given a reading for Frank Sieberling of Akron, Ohio, the founder of Goodyear. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Seiberling God Bless, Kyle - - - - Message #6935 from George Cleveland (clevelandgeorgem at gmail.com) I have been intrigued by the possibility of a connection with Edgar Cayce and Bill Wilson. It seems unlikely that Bill would not have at least sought a reading. All Cayce readings are well documented but are all numbered. So from their archives I think it would be difficult to ascertain which reading may have been Bill's. Maybe there is anecdotal evidence elsewhere?? However, Cayce did weigh in on alcoholism. There's an interesting overview here: http://www.edgarcayce.org/are/holistic_health/data/pralco3.html Curiouser and curiouser. George Cleveland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7390. . . . . . . . . . . . Traditions written 1945 or 1946? Why does 12x12 change the date? From: Lester Gother . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/20/2011 4:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello group, In the 12 x 12 tradition 4, the 3rd paragraph, the first sentence reads: "When A. A.'s traditions were first published in 1945 ..." The question is the date 1945. The first through the fifteenth printings show 1945, the 29th printing in 1985 reads 1946. Can someone comment on the background of this change? I always thought the traditions were written in 1946. AA Love and Service Lester G New Jersey IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7391. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pass It On -- Bill W. never a member of AA? From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/18/2011 5:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Let's remember how Bill Borchert handled this topic in his movie "MY NAME IS BILL" a few years back. In it, Bill was rather perturbed that when he and Lois decided to stop in at a Fellowship meeting one evening during a trip and they sat in the rear of the room. Bill exclaimed to Lois to the effect ... "They don't even recognize me," and she comforted him. As we know, Bill Borchert says that he knew Lois very well and spent considerable time at Stepping Stones, so it provides some credence to the fact that Bill W rather enjoyed ... and expected ... notoriety. Les Cole Colorado Springs, Colorado IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7392. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Traditions written 1945 or 1946? Why does 12x12 change the date? From: bernadette macleod . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/26/2011 8:15:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On page 306 of our book Pass It On, mid-paragraph it is stated "they (Traditions) were first published in the April 1946 issue of the Grapevine." Earlier in Chapter Nineteen of the book, it states that after Jack Alexander's article in the Saturday Evening Post on March 1, 1931, the New York office was constantly fielding calls, similar in nature, about the functioning of the groups. The "Twelve Points to Assure Our Future", which the Traditions were originally named, was Bill W.'s response to these emerging difficulties. Bernadette M. King City Group King City, Ontario, Canada - - - - From: lgother@optonline.net (lgother at optonline.net) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 Subject: [Traditions written 1945 or 1946? Why does 12x12 change the date? Hello group, In the 12 x 12 tradition 4, the 3rd paragraph, the first sentence reads: "When A. A.'s traditions were first published in 1945 ..." The question is the date 1945. The first through the fifteenth printings show 1945, the 29th printing in 1985 reads 1946. Can someone comment on the background of this change? I always thought the traditions were written in 1946. AA Love and Service Lester G New Jersey IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7393. . . . . . . . . . . . Traditions written 1945 or 1946? Why does 12x12 change the date? From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/26/2011 11:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Lester wrote > Can someone comment on the background of this change? I always thought the traditions were written in 1946. The first issue of the AAGV was June 1944 and in June 1945 Bill W. became editorial adviser and agreed to write articles. He wrote a series which addressed the relations of the A.A. to his group, to AA as a whole and to the place of AA in society. He also addressed the problems of money, leadership and authority. In the April 1946 issue of the AAGV, Bill wrote an article titled Twelve Suggested Points for A.A. Tradition and they were set down in what we term the long form and they were numbered. So, while some of the articles by Bill were written in 1945 the naming of them as Twelve Points of Tradition took place in April 1946. Jim B. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7394. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Disease concept: diffusion and confusion query From: Charley Bill . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/26/2011 1:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 1. I don't understand your question. Since the disease concept of alcoholism is completely and accurately described, albeit in contemporary terms, in "The Doctor's Opinion," an integral part of the basic text of AA; it should have been the basis of the concept of alcoholism held by the members at that time and since. Perhaps your question could be restated like this: The disease concept of alcoholism was first widely spread by its inclusion in the book, Alcoholics Anonymous. How much effect did this have on the belief systems of the general public in the U.S. in the 1040s and 50s? I don't go back that far, but by the late '60s when I arrived, we were taught the disease concept in AA, right away. I did hear Marty Mann give a talk on alcoholism at the Navy's alcoholism clinic in Long Beach, California, sometime in the early '70s. As I recall, she was then regarded as an emissary of Bill Wilson and Alcoholics Anonymous with the mission of securing support for the cause of alcoholism treatment in ways that AA could not. It was a great talk and she had a fine message. (I think it was her Primer on Alcoholism.) But her smoking indicated she had not recovered from her addictions. She was completely enslaved by tobacco. When Dr Joe Zuska asked her to put out her cigarette as they entered the hospital, the looked him in the face and said, "Joe Zuska, you go to hell." - - - - On 5/25/2011 8:17 PM, Ron Roizen wrote: > > Hi, > > A colleague and I have been having a little debate. I wonder if the > list would care to comment on these two questions: > > (1) How much, if at all, did the rise to prominence of the disease > concept of alcoholism in the late 1940s and the decade of the 1950s > percolate into the belief system of A.A. members and their conceptions > of alcoholism? > > (2) How much, if at all, did confusion surrounding Mrs. Marty Mann's > disease-concept campaign of advocacy in this period spread commitment > to the disease concept in A.A.'s membership? By "confusion" I mean > chiefly that A.A. members may not have been entirely certain whether > Mann's pro-disease concept advocacy was a legitimate part of A.A.'s > belief system or whether she was promoting the concept solely for the > purposes of her National Committee for Education on Alcoholism (later > NCA)? > > Comments on these questions much appreciated! > > Ron Roizen > Wallace, Idaho > > (ronroizen at frontier.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7395. . . . . . . . . . . . Yale School and NCA From: trysh travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/26/2011 9:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ron Roizen is blogging today on the Points blog on the issue of "What Time Would You Like it To Be? Finessing Science at the Yale School and the National Council on Alcoholism." http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/ Trysh Travis ____________________________________________ Points: The Blog of the Alcohol and Drugs History Society http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/ What Time Do You Want it to Be? Finessing Science, Part Two Posted on May 28, 2011 by ttravis In the first segment of this post, Ron Roizen explored the congenial relationship between the free and easy scientific method that prevailed at the Yale School during the late 1940s and Marty Mannâs message-driven National Council on Alcoholism. The second installment in his story brings in another characterâ“ Alcoholics Anonymousâ“ and shows how they all held hands. The A.A. Grapevine Survey Arguably the most notable â“ and perhaps also the most unlikely â“ of these awkward interactions surrounded The A.A. Grapevineâs survey of alcoholismâs symptomatology in 1945. This survey in due course provided the data for E.M. Jellinekâs famous 1946 (8) and 1952 (9) articles describing an alcoholism syndrome. If some speculative historical interpolation may be forgiven â“ because the exact origins of the Grapevine survey are not known: My hunch is that once Marty Mann embarked on marketing the disease concept to the American public she encountered questions about the concept she could not adequately address. Itâs likely, moreover, that when Mann called for backup at the Yale group its scientists had little help to offer. Mann may have also turned to her psychiatrist friend, Harry Tiebout, for help. Her request, in turn, may have prompted the writing of Tieboutâs 1945 article on the syndrome of alcohol addiction (10). Yet Mann was probably not entirely satisfied with Tieboutâs article, as its symptomatology took a psychiatric (rather than a physiologic) approach toward alcoholism. Thus, Mann may have soon come to the conclusion that she needed to collect her own scientific data on alcoholismâs symptomatology â“ in what would become the 1945 Grapevine survey. Jellinek â“ slyly, I suggest â” alluded to the homegrown origins of the Grapevine survey and a homegrown rationale for its undertaking in the introductory pages of his 1946 article. âMembers of Alcoholics Anonymous,â wrote Jellinek, "see their own experience duplicated day in, day out by the many inebriates who come to them for help. Again and again they hear about those drinking incidents and behaviors which in their own cases seemed significant to them. The older members of that informal organization of recovered alcoholics, no doubt, would like to see some systematization of the knowledge derivable from the drinking history. It is, presumably, because of this that the Grapevine, now the official organ of Alcoholics Anonymous, published in its May 1945 issue a questionnaire designed for members of Alcoholics Anonymous (p. 3, emphasis added)." I see slyness here on Jellinekâs part because he attributed the Grapevine surveyâs origins to a broadly diffuse alleged desire among âolder membersâ of A.A. for a systematization of their collective drinking experience. That doesnât quite ring true. A more candid description of the reasons behind the survey might have noted Mannâs campaignâs unmet need for more scientific stiffening for the disease concept. Jellinek, also in the 1946 article, expressed diffidence about undertaking the analysis of data arguably collected in a more or less unscientific fashion. âAfter the questionnaires were returned,â he wrote, "the editors of the Grapevine requested me to prepare a statistical analysis of the data. I have undertaken this work with great interest but also with many misgivings. Statistical thinking should not begin after a survey or an experiment has been completed but should enter into the first plans for obtaining the data. In the questionnaire under consideration this requirement was neglected (p. 5)." It is well to step back and take in the irony attaching to the Grapevinesurveyâs story. Should the known part of this story and my guesswork prove more or less correct, then: First, Yale scientists hired a publicist to promote the disease concept. Then the concept turned out to lack good scientific legs. The publicist, in turn, launched her own survey study â” in order to provide rudimentary data buttressing alcoholismâs disease character. Next, a Yale scientist reluctantly agreed to analyze the data. He published two papers stemming from the survey (1946 and 1952). In due course a chart showing alcoholismâs symptom progression (in the 1952 paper) became widely distributed within the alcoholism movement. âThis chart,â wrote Robin Room (8), âparticularly as adapted by [Max] Glatt, is probably the most widely diffused artifact of the alcoholism movementâs disease concept.â Quite a story. Summing Up Players in all institutions engage in back-stage communications about how best to pursue their aims and the limits of appropriate actions. The correspondence Iâve made use of in this post sheds new light on Mannâs organizationâs weak rhetorical position respecting the alcohol science it sought from Yale. OâConnorâs correspondence with Straus and with Bacon illuminated the limits of what Yale science could offer on issues that were important to NCAâs broader campaign. Mannâs correspondence with Haggard, on the other hand, showed how she sought to shape Yale science along lines that were useful â“ or at least not obstructive â“ to her campaignâs goals. The story of the Grapevine survey suggested how the role relationship between Mannâs group and the Yale group could become partly reversed. Mann, in all probability, designed and carried out the data-gathering for this study â“ a scientific task the Yale group might have undertaken. There are no one-way streets in this picture of interaction concerning science between NCA and Yale. Not-so-hard science could be finessed, massaged, or negotiated when the situations and the goals of the two institutions warranted. Notes (8) Jellinek, E.M., âPhases in the Drinking History of Alcoholics: Analysis of a Survey Conducted by the Official Organ of Alcoholics Anonymous, â Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol 7:1-88, 1946. (9) Jellinek, E.M., âPhases of Alcohol Addiction,â Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol 13:673-684, 1952. (10) Tiebout, Harry M., âThe Syndrome of Alcohol Addiction,â Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol 5:535-546, 1945. (11) Yet, and interestingly, Mann cited Tieboutâs 1945 article, and not Jellinekâs 1946 and 1952 articles, as authority for the disease concept claim in her 1950 book, Primer on Alcoholism. (12) Room, Robin G. W., Governing Images of Alcohol and Drug Problems: The Structure, Sources and Sequels of Conceptualizations of Intractable Problems, Ph.D. dissertation, University of California, Berkeley, Sociology, 1978, p. 55. ____________________________________________ AND FURTHER ALONG ON THE SAME WEB PAGE: What Time Do You Want It To Be? Finessing Science at the National Council on Alcoholism and at Yale Posted on May 26, 2011 by ronroizen9 Over the course of the second half of the 20th century Mrs. Marty Mann and her National Council on Alcohol (NCA) became the best known public advocates of the disease concept of alcoholism in the United States. Mannâs great campaign, however, harbored a vexing rhetorical weakness. All the News that's Fit to Print From its outsetâ“with NCAâs (1) launch in the autumn of 1944â“Mannâs organization purported to convey ostensibly sound scientific knowledge and facts about alcoholism to the American public. Mann was a publicist, not a scientist; more to the point, scientific knowledge about alcoholism (including even whether such a phenomenon might confidently be said to exist) was scant and unreliable. This awkward behind-the-scenes circumstance created some equally awkward and unlikely back-stage interactions between NCA and the Yale Center of Alcohol Studies.NCA relied on the Yale group for scientific support. Yetâ“as contemporary correspondence shows â“Yale scientists werenât always ready with the goods; neither did the Yale groupâs scientific work always comport with Mannâs groupâs aims. Uncertain Science and Cross-Influences One of Mannâs objectives in NCA was to shift the American publicâs image of the alcoholic from that of the skid row derelict to that of the average Joe or Jane. Some sort of credible statistical data were needed to support such a shift. What had Yale science to offer? In 1957, Mollie OâConnor, NCA executive assistant and fact-checker, wrote to Robert Straus (formerly at the Yale group but by then at the University of Kentucky), asking permission to use Strausâs estimate that 10 to 15 percent of alcoholics âwere of the visible skid row typeâ¦â (2). Strausâs reply was the soul of candor. âI have been trying to recall,â wrote Straus, âjust when and under what circumstances I might have made such an estimateâ¦.To my knowledge this factor has never been counted or measured and any statistics must necessarily be guessesâ (3). Straus closed his reply to OâConnor with a broad disclaimer: "In short, what I am really getting at is the fact that I have no legitimate basis for providing statistics on the relative percentages of skid row or other alcoholics. Were you to ask me for my opinion, I would say that probably no more than 15 to 20 percent of our problem drinkers represent the skid row group. If you feel that this would have any value, you may quote this as a personal opinion." In a similar vein, NCA wished to lower the age distribution of alcoholics, thus also eroding the image of the aging skid row bum. OâConnor wrote to Selden D. Bacon in 1957 asking permission to quote from an article in which heâd written that three out of four alcoholics were between the ages of 35 and 55 (4). Baconâs reply cannot have offered OâConnor much confidence in his estimate: "I suppose itâs all right for you to quote the age-range figure. Nobody knows, and this sounds just as worthwhile as many other statements which purport to be factual. I think the statement would be somewhat better if it started with âprobably,â but this might so weaken it for your purposes that you would prefer to have it as it is in your letter. So, go ahead and, if anybody challenges it, weâll just counter-challenge them to produce a better figure (5)." Marty Mann sometimes tried to influence the future path of scientific research at the Yale group. In 1948, for example, she penned a detailed letter to Howard W. Haggard arguing that the group should do more physiologically oriented research on alcoholism. Near the close of this missive, Mann wrote: "Incidentally, I want to add here, that I feel strongly the need for more and more physiological research under the Yale plan. I get more questions on that, than on any other phase of our work excepting on how we help them to do something ([6] original emphasis)." On another occasion, Mann complained bitterly in a letter to Haggard that that a Yale group author was employing the term âdrinking habitâ in a forthcoming Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol article. She wrote in part: "On the surface, this perhaps does not seem very important, but from my point of view, it could scarcely be more important. The entire burden of my talks and efforts is directed toward a new concept of alcoholism and a new and more enlightened attitude toward its victims. This concept and this attitude depend [sic] very heavily upon phraseology, for after all, words embody concepts. The hardest job I have is to overcome the too familiar phraseology of the ubiquitous âdrysâ a phraseology which bears in its train the associations they have given to certain phrases. Since practically all school teaching on this subject has been under their control for at least fifty years, most adults have at some time learned the typical temperance teachings, and whether or not they agree, the use of certain phrases inevitably calls up some of these associations (7)." Up Next: The Unsound Science of the AA Grapevine Survey. Notes: (1) At its founding, Mannâs organization was the âNational Committee for Education on Alcoholismâ; its legatee is the âNational Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence.â (2) Mollie OâConnor to Robert Straus, Nov. 1, 1957, Box 1, Folder âFacts onâ¦,â Special Collections, Syracuse University Library. (3) Straus to OâConnor, Nov. 7, 1957, Box 1, Folder âFacts onâ¦,â Special Collections, Syracuse University Library. (4) OâConnor to Selden D. Bacon, Nov. 14, 1957, Box 1, Folder âFacts onâ¦,â Special Collections, Syracuse University Library. (5) Bacon to OâConnor, Nov. 18, 1957, Box 1, Folder âFacts onâ¦,â Special Collections, Syracuse University Library. (6) Mann to Bacon, Aug. 10, 1948, Box 5, Folder âYale Summer School,â Special Collections, Syracuse University Library. (7) Mann to Bacon, Feb. 26, 1946, Box 5, Folder âYale Summer School,â Special Collections, Syracuse University Library. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7396. . . . . . . . . . . . obit - John G. Ackerlind (1921-2011) From: aadavidi . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2011 3:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A man of great character and love, born September 25, 1921 in Malmo, Sweden, died May 6, 2011 at 6:20 PM surrounded by family and friends. Served in Swedish Royal Airforce during WWII. He met Karin on June 6, 1944. Married 64 years. They emigrated to America in 1948 eventually settling in Laguna Beach and finally in Laguna Woods. He is survived by wife Karin; brother Carl (Britta,) their son Mike; sister Margareta her children Anita and Robert, and grand daughters Alison and Natalie. Children: Carolyn, daughter Kaisa (Brian); Claudia (Craig); Katrina(Ken) son Michael, daughter Amy(Cody), and two great grand children, Trey and Harper; son John-Eric (Jayne). For the last 48 years of his life John evolved to become a highly loved and respected member and a much loved speaker in the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous. He epitomized the finest ideal of AA - making sure that everyone, especially the befuddled newcomer, knew that they were loved. Memorial Service to be held May 14 at 10 AM Laguna Presbyterian Church, 415 Forest Avenue, Laguna Beach. http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/latimes/obituary.aspx?page=lifestory&pid=15 1166\ 418 [18] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7397. . . . . . . . . . . . Stepping Stones From: Michael . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/28/2011 12:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi all, I'm going to visit Stepping Stones next week (June 7th) and was hoping I could get sort of a "must see" list from some AAHL members. I've visited Stepping Stones once before and there's just so much to see and experience that I knew I was passing by some fascinating stuff that I just wasn't knowledgeable about. I know things like the desk in Wits End was Hanks and that Father Ed's cane and crucifix are there also, but I'm sure there are a lot of things like that that I'm not aware of, so… any tips for getting the most out of this next visit would be greatly appreciated! Thanks, Mike Margetis Brunswick, Maryland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7398. . . . . . . . . . . . AA History tourism locations From: joe . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2011 10:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I ran across a reference to a list of AA tourism locations put together by some past and present members of this forum. The link is no longer there, so I thought I would pose the question to the group. If you were travelling to locations across the USA, what famous AA sites would you recommend visiting? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7399. . . . . . . . . . . . Ron Roizen on Max Glatt From: trysh travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2011 11:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ron Roizen is blogging about Max Glatt and the disease concept at Points this evening: http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/. Trysh Travis IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7400. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Disease concept: diffusion and confusion query From: Joanna . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2011 10:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello all - I just want to respond to something I see here in this first post by Charley Bill - and of course this does not have to do with the question being raised, but I feel that it is important enough to be addressed. "But her smoking indicated she had not recovered from her addictions. She was completely enslaved by tobacco. When Dr Joe Zuska asked her to put out her cigarette as they entered the hospital, the looked him in the face and said, "Joe Zuska, you go to hell."" Regarding this point: I am just going to clarify here that we are ALCOHOLICS Anonymous. We don't claim to have a solution for ALL addictions - just one for ALCOHOLISM. I feel this is important to note. Bill W died of emphysema due to smoking as well. Read the last portion of A VIsion For You regarding this - Joanna W. Area 10 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7401. . . . . . . . . . . . Source of quote: newcomers are the lifeblood of the program From: royslev . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2011 12:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm pretty sure I did read somewhere in Bill's writings the statement that "newcomers are the lifeblood of the program." I scanned through "As Bill Sees It" but I couldn't find it there. Could someone give me a quick steer toward the source of this quote? or was I hallucinating sober? I know that the Big Book says on page 89 that "frequent contact with newcomers and with each other is the bright spot of our lives," but this is not the quote I was looking for. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7402. . . . . . . . . . . . Source of Carl Jung quote From: royslev . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2011 1:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Wayne Dyer quoted Carl Jung as saying "One of the main functions of formalized religion is to protect people against a direct experience of God," but he did not indicate the name of the book and the page number where Jung himself made that statement. There are now hundreds of places on the internet where this quotation is cited, but in every one of them which I have checked, they refer only to Wayne Dyer's work. They never give any reference to a work by Carl Jung where we could read in context what Jung himself had written on that subject. Can anybody give me the name of the work written by Carl Jung, with page number etc., where Jung made that statement? -- if in fact he ever did say that. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7403. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: correct date of Jack Alexander article From: Gary Neidhardt . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/30/2011 10:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Of course the Jack Alexander article was dated March 1, 1941, and Bernadette was only guilty of a typo when she wrote "1931." Gary Neidhardt Sober at the Summit Lawrenceville, GA - - - - From: bernadette macleod Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 8:15 AM Subject: RE: Traditions written 1945 or 1946? Why does 12x12 change the date? <<... in Chapter Nineteen of the book [Pass It On], it states that after Jack Alexander's article in the Saturday Evening Post on March 1, 1931, the New York office was constantly fielding calls, similar in nature, about the functioning of the groups. The "Twelve Points to Assure Our Future", which the Traditions were originally named, was Bill W.'s response to these emerging difficulties.>> Bernadette M. King City Group King City, Ontario, Canada IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7404. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Stepping Stones: photos From: Bryan Reid . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2011 12:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I hope these links work for you. These are the pictures I took on my visit 6 years ago, which I put up on my Facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1096851744752.2016691.1330351527&l =848\ 1cb7777 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291103&l=9c4d6b989d&id=1330351527 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291104&l=43babe8a35&id=1330351527 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291118&l=481e5cfc2a&id=1330351527 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291117&l=bb042c9adb&id=1330351527 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291108&l=8b2c585958&id=1330351527 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291116&l=be3c7591c6&id=1330351527 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291109&l=91a5f8959a&id=1330351527 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291111&l=1f4e091c0c&id=1330351527 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291110&l=4af67f4fbd&id=1330351527 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291107&l=de569d6403&id=1330351527 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291115&l=dbdbe48105&id=1330351527 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291105&l=f5f82b6bb1&id=1330351527 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291106&l=da392c8d60&id=1330351527 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291119&l=60ae54f139&id=1330351527 The pictures and captions show what the highlights were for me. I would recommend allowing a MINIMUM of 30-45 minutes for the library upstairs. It is a veritable history of AA, and to a lesser extent Al-Anon. Before she died, Lois put little numbered stickers on all the framed pictures and letters. Then she put up notes that identified what each item was, what it was about, who was in it, etc. It was a great experience for me and I loved every second of it. It was living history. Enjoy your visit, Michael. It's wonderful. Bryan IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7405. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Stepping Stones From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/30/2011 11:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Mike: Take a look at the picture on the wall opposite the desk. It is of Mark Whalon and Charlie Richie. Mark of course was Bill's important mentor as a kid even though he was 10 years older. Mark was the early influence for Bill to see the "other side" of society than just the small-town culture. Mark remained a very close friend throughout their lives. Charlie was the Burnham caretaker at the Camp at Emerald Lake and the residence in Manchester Village. As a child (1932-33), I knew them both, but I do not have a picture of either. Maybe you could take a pic of that pic and let me know. Please give my regards to Annah. Les Cole Colorado Springs, CO elsietwo@msn.com (personal) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7406. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: obit - John G. Ackerlind (1921-2011) From: John Moore . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2011 9:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sad to see Johnny's passing. Johnny Ackerlind was my first sponsor in 1971 in Southern California. A new AA buddy took me to my second meeting in Laguna Beach, the Wednesday nite speaker meeting that Johnny regularly attended. Johnny said yes and invited me to his home in Santa Ana where we sat and talked. He offered to help me any way he could and it was my first close look at a drinker just like me, who had gotten sober and put his life back together in AA. He was a regular at the Men's meeting at Canyon Club and I am sure he there the night I had to confess to "borrowing" money from the treasury. I learned a lot about amends that week LOL and about grasping and developing a manner of living that demands rigorous honesty. Johnny was a wonderful witty speaker. He was invited to talk quite often and his story was hilarious, and serious. He was a gentle soul and he held the lantern for us during his 48 years of sobriety. Two of Johnny's talks can be downloaded from my service site http://aatalks.4shared.com/ and talks are listed in alpha order. or you can download directly by clicking link, this was his share in 2009 at Canyon Club in Laguna Beach Cal: https://www.4shared.com/audio/RO-aXmMk/Johnny_A_Laguna_Beach_Cal_at_C.html John M DOS Dec 7 1971 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7407. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Disease concept of alcoholism From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/25/2011 6:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Chuck Parkhurst and Rick Benchoff - - - - From: "Chuck Parkhurst" (ineedpage63 at cox.net) I like to keep it simple and refer to my condition of mind and body using the same terms our book does. That term is not disease. I believe I have an illness and a spiritual malady. I hear many people in meetings talk about their disease making them do this and that and their disease taking them places. It sounds like an excuse for human behavior. I am selfish not because I am alcoholic but because I am selfish. If my alcoholism caused all my problems, they would have went away when I stopped drinking. Sadly, they did not. I work in a LOT of halfway houses and low bottom drunk tanks....that is where I came from. The stigma for alcoholism still exists even though it might not be to the extent that it was in the 30's thru the 70's. I believe using the terminology in the book helps keep the message pure. Instead our message is being watered down and diluted. Our meeting have already become a breeding ground for slogans, hearsay and sayings not only NOT in our book, but contradictory to its message. There is no question I have an illness or condition that will kill me and continues to get worse, even while I am not drinking. I believe I have a daily reprieve and that is based on my relationship to God. I do not need to be reminded about my illness (there will be a time my memory will not be enough) but do have to continue to practice the spiritual disciplines embodied in the steps. These are my further thoughts and experience as to why I think terminology that may sound trivial actually is not. In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst - - - - From: Rick Benchoff (rxichard2nd at yahoo.com) To my fellow AA History-Lovers: I've tried to stay away from the "disease concept" discussion. I'm a "three-hatter." I'm a pharmacist, an addiction treatment professional, as well as an alcoholic. The debate about whether "alcoholism" is a disease will probably never disappear. The WHO and the AMA helped clear the way in getting insurance plans to cover the medical costs of treatment, but convincing non-alcoholics (including many medical professionals) that alcoholism is a disease is like trying to explain the color purple to someone born blind. The Big Book discusses this in a number of places. Alcoholics are bodily and mentally different than non-alcoholics. They'll never "get it." The reason I put the word "alcoholism" in quotation marks is that the DSM-IV terminology for what AA members call alcoholism is "alcohol dependency." It's too bad that the medical profession didn't use the term "disorder." There are many illnesses (a term used in the Big Book) that are labeled as disorders. Two that readily come to mind are attention-deficit disorder and post-traumatic stress disorder. The general public believes that most diseases occur through no fault of the sufferer. Yet in reality most of the health problems (and the biggest killers) in the U.S. today are lifestyle-related. To really stir up things, the U.S. Supreme Court does not consider alcoholism a disease, but a form of "willful misconduct," but I digress once again. Regardless of whether it's called a disease, an illness, a malady, a disorder, or whether it's labeled as alcoholism, alcohol abuse, alcohol addiction, alcohol dependency, dipsomania, etc., the bottom line is that alcohol kills a large number of people who consume it. If that doesn't make it a significant public health issue, I don't know what else to say. Be well and with warm regards to all, Rick B. Hagerstown, Maryland P.S. This Yahoo Group is not a closed, online meeting for alcoholics. Membership in this group is not limited to AA members; it is open to anyone with an interest in AA history. Therefore the discussion about tobacco use, nicotine addiction or related illnesses by people relevant to the topic or to AA's history is not out-of-bounds. The number one preventable cause of premature death in the U.S. -- in alcoholics and nonalcoholics -- is tobacco use. Five times as many people will die from tobacco-related illnesses in the U.S. this year than from alcohol-related illnesses. Since many of AA's early pioneers (and later ones, too) died from tobacco use, it is of historical significance. Joanna has made an important observation about AA's "Singleness of Purpose." However, let me stir up some things. It is interesting to note that the Fifth Tradition states that, "Each group has but one primary purpose - to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers." By inference, this sentence implies that AA groups may have secondary purposes. Hmm... Another interesting thought is that an AA member with significant sobriety may still be suffering, yet alcohol-free, but I digress. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7409. . . . . . . . . . . . Photos of Richard Peabody and Courtenay Baylor From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/5/2011 3:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Gang, Does anyone have a photo of Richard Peabody and/or Courtenay Baylor they could send me? I have a pre-Big Book literature presentation to give and would love Peabody's picture to present along with The Common Sense of Drinking portion of the prentation. Send to: (jax760 at yahoo.com) Thanks and God Bless John Barton IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7410. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA History tourism locations From: Hugh M. . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/1/2011 2:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Hugh M. and Mike Batty - - - - From: "Hugh M." (humbc at shaw.ca) I would visit Dr. Bob's childhood home at 34 Summer Street in St. Johnsbury Vermont. It is off the beaten path, but visiting it made the story of his early years become real to me. Hugh in B.C. - - - - From: Mike Batty (mcbat.t at rogers.com) Four sites stand out in my mind: 1. Dr Bob's home in Akron, Ohio. 2. GSO in New York City. 3. Stepping Stones -- Bill and Lois' final home http://www.steppingstones.org/visiting.html says the "Stepping Stones physical address is 62 Oak Road, Katonah, NY 10536, even though the house itself sits on the Bedford Hills border and Bill and Lois Wilson always referred to their home as being in Bedford Hills. Both are villages of the larger town of Bedford." 4. Bill's Birthplace, (a bed and breakfast) in East Dorset, Vermont A group of us organized a bus trip and did numbers 2, 3 and 4 in an extended weekend. We arrived in East Dorset in time for Bill's Birthday and Picnic which was a real bonus. Of the four, this writer found the most "feel" and history at Stepping Stones. All four are outstanding stops along the way and deserve much more than the time we allotted. Each, I feel, deserves a full day and many returns. In Service Mike Batty Waterloo, On IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7411. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA History tourism locations From: Bent Christensen . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/1/2011 1:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII BENT CHRISTENSEN'S LIST Hi, I was working on it a while ago. I don't think the list is complete, maybe we can finish it together? Place Special note Open for public Location/ State New York NEW YORK CITY: 2nd office 1938-40, 30 Vesey Street 3rd office1940-44, 415 Lexington 6 years missing 4th office 1950-60, 141 East 4th Street 5th office 1960-70, 315 East 45th Street 6th office 1970-92, 468 Park Avenue South 7th office 1992-present, General Services Office & AA Grapevine (Physical Location) 475 Riverside Drive New York, NY 10115 212-870-3400 http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org Meeting Friday at 11:00 YES New York City Towns Hospital, 293 Central Park West CalvaryChurch, 21st Street & Park Avenue South Yes 30 Rockefeller Plaza. Where Bill met "Uncle Dick" Richardson, conduit to John D. Rockefeller. Yes 1335 Avenue of the Americas, New York Hilton, Site of the Bill W. dinner, put on every year by the New York Intergroup since 1945. Yes Madison Avenue & 44th Street, Roosevelt Hotel, Site of over 35 General Service Conferences. Yes Seventh Avenue& 56th Street, Park Omni, Site of General Service Conferences. Yes 38 Livingston Street, Brooklyn, Lois & Bill's home when they were financially rich. No 182 Clinton Street, Brooklyn, Lois & Bills home where Ebby carried the message to Bill No CLOSE TO NEW YORK CITY: Stepping Stones Foundation P.O. Box 452 Bedford Hills, NY 10507 914-232-4822 http://www.steppingstones.org *YES 1st office, 17 Williams Street, Newark, (ask Merton if it still exist) 22 kilometers East of Manhattan 22 mins drive NEAR NEW YORK: Ebby's grave, Albany Rural Cemetery, Cemetery Avenue Menands, NY 12204, 249.45 kilometers north of New York 2 hours 49 mins drive Yes Silkworth's grave, Glenwood Cemetery, Monmouth Pkwy. West Long Branch, NJ84.65 km south of New York, 1 hour 4 mins drive Yes BOSTON: 115 Newbury St.,at the Jacoby Club quarters where the first AA meetings in Boston were held and by whom the early AA in Boston where was strongly influenced, 333.30 kmnorth of Manhattan 3 hours 52 mins drive Richmond Walker who wrote "Twenty-Four Hours a Day" which was the second most read book in early AA lived and got sober in Boston in 1942 VERMONT: The Wilson House P.O. Box 46 East Dorset, 05253 802-362-5524 http://www.wilsonhouse.org *YES Dr. Bob's Birth House in St Johnsbury, Vermont Bill & Lois grave MINNESOTA: 2218 First Avenue South, the worlds oldest Alano Club that's in operation today and the place where Ed Webster in May 1942 started the earliest known example of formal A.A. beginners classes. Yes 6301 Penn Ave S, the Nicollet Group founded by Barry C. the first sober AA member in Minneapolis and Ed Webster the author of "The Little Red Book". The group was based mostly on Dr. Bob's views and is still operating much like the way they did in the 40ties. AKRON: 1. Akron A.A. Archives. Yes 2. St. Thomas Hospital (Yes) 3. Dr. Bob's Office - Society Bank Bldg. No 4. Mayflower Hotel (Yes) 5. Kistler's Donuts (now S.K.) Doesn't exist anymore 6. Dr. Bob's Grave (across from 230 Aqueduct) Yes 7. King School - former site of first A.A. group No 8. Rev. Tunk's Rectory - at Casterton & Edgerton Rds No 9. T. Henry & Clarace Williams' Home - 676 Palisades No 10. Seiberling Gatehouse - Garman Rd. & Portage Path Yes 11. Portage Country Club 12. Dr. Bob's House, 855 Ardmore Avenue, Akron, Ohio 44302, phone 330-864-1935, email http://www.drbobshome.org Yes 13. King School Group - AA group #1, now meeting at First United Church of Christ - Wed., 8 PM closed speaker meeting Yes CLEVELAND: Cleveland central Office YES 2345 Stillman Road, Cleveland Heights -- Albert "Abby" Golricks home where the first meeting was held. (Maybe it doesn't exist anymore.) PHILADELPHIA: Intergroup Office - Good but not great archive YES NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE: The Upper Room headquarters, 1908 Grand Avenue, Nashville, Tennessee 37212 ____________________________________ *YES = Open by appointment X = ved ikke om huset eksisterer endnu. Don't know if the place still exist. Bil fra Akron til New York en dag. Fra New York til East Dorset, Vermont ca. 6 timer i følge Mel http://www.akronaa.org/Archives/map/map.html Afstande Akron New York Vermont San Antonio Akron 715 km 6 timer 49 min 932 km 8 timer 54 min 2372 km 22 timer 40 min New York 444,28 miles 6 timer 49 min 344 km 4 timer 41 min 2950 km 28 timer 12 min Vermont 579,12 miles 8 timer 54 min 213,75 miles 4 timer 41 min 3247 km 31 timer 2 min San Antonio 1.473,89 miles 22 timer 40 min 1 833,05 miles 28 timer 12 min 2.017,59 miles 31 timer 2 min Lokale afstande Manhattan Stepping Stone Silkworths Grave Manhattan 61.80 km 1 timer 4 min 84.65 km 1 timer 4 min Stepping Stone 38.40 miles 1 hour 4 mins Silkworths Grave 52.6 miles 1 hour 4 mins 1 amerikansk mil = 1.609 km AAs 1st meetings 1. Akron 2. New York 3. Cleveland 4. Philadelphia Bent Christensen Valmuevej 17 6000 Kolding Tlf. +45 50 12 17 43 www.synlighjemmeside.dk IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7412. . . . . . . . . . . . The newcomer is the most important person in the room From: Charlie C . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/5/2011 9:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, seeing the post asking about the line that says "newcomers are the lifeblood of the program" and its origins reminded me I have wondered if anyone knows where the line that "the newcomer is the most important person in the room" comes from and has a sense of when it entered AA oral culture. I know it is not from our literature, and I don't think I remember hearing it in my early years in upstate NY in the late '80s, early '90s, but in the time since it seems to have become widespread and often accepted unquestioningly, even though it might seem in conflict with the ideas of comradeship, ego deflation etc. suggested in the Big Book. Charlie Cowling Set a stout hairt tae a stey brae. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7413. . . . . . . . . . . . Anonymity break, removing non-God meetings from Toronto list From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/8/2011 2:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII (1) In the following article in yesterday's paper, Pete W. (past delegate and trustee) broke his anonymity with a full face photograph along with giving his last name. (2) The article went on to describe how Toronto's two secular AA groups -- Beyond Belief and We Agnostics -- had their listings removed from Toronto's official directory of AA meetings. - - - - Does religion belong at AA? Fight over 'God' splits Toronto AA groups by Leslie Scrivener, Feature Writer thestar.com Fri Jun 03 2011 Photo at the top of this article taken by Steve Russell of the Toronto Star, caption below the photo says: "Catholic priest Fr. Pete Watters [full face photograph standing in front of a stained glass window] has been sober for 50 years. He says belief in a higher power, God, is essential to getting sober in Alcoholics Anonymous. Photographed at St. Andrew Church in Oakville on June 3, 2011." THE TEXT OF THE ARTICLE: It uses "fellowship" to help chronic drinkers quit the bottle. But there is little fellowship in a schism that splintered the Alcoholics Anonymous umbrella group in the GTA this week. At issue is this question: Do alcoholics need God? On Tuesday, Toronto's two secular AA groups, known as Beyond Belief and We Agnostics, were removed or "delisted" from the roster of local meetings. They've disappeared from the Toronto AA website and will not be in the next printed edition of the Toronto directory. The dispute started when Beyond Belief posted an adapted version of AA's hallowed "Twelve Steps" on the Toronto website. They removed the word "God" from the steps, which are used as a kind of road map to help drinkers achieve sobriety. "They took issue with a public display of secular AA," says Joe C., who founded Beyond Belief, Toronto's first agnostic AA group, 18 months ago. (In keeping with AA's tradition of anonymity, members are identified by first names only.) It proved popular enough that a second group started up last fall; it took its name from a chapter in the AA bible entitled Alcoholics Anonymous, commonly known as the Big Book. The group, We Agnostics, had only recently completed the paperwork to be part of AA before being booted out. "What is unusual is that this didn't happen in some backwater, but that it happened in a liberal, democratic, pluralistic place like Toronto," says Joe. The name of God appears four times in the Twelve Steps and echoes the period in which they were written -- the 1930s. It invites those seeking sobriety to turn themselves over to God, who will remove their "defects of character." They go on to speak of God's will for the recovering alcoholic. "They (the altered Twelve Steps) are not our Twelve Steps," says an AA member who was at Tuesday's meeting of the coordinating body known as the Greater Toronto Area Intergroup. "They've changed them to their own personal needs. They should never have been listed in the first place." He says that in the early days of AA, meetings ended with the Lord's Prayer. "That has obviously stopped in all but hard-core groups. We welcome people with open arms. In our group we still say the Lord's Prayer. One guy was uncomfortable with that. I told him to just step back when we pray. He does. He's doing what he needs to do for him." The issue of AA's use of God has come up frequently over the past 50 years. For the most part, the organization -- which claims 113,000 groups around the world -- permits other agencies to imitate its program, but not to call themselves Alcoholics Anonymous. Other secular organizations, including Save our Selves (or Secular Organizations for Sobriety), offer addiction help similar to AA. But with some 100,000 members in 2005, SOS is far less popular than AA, which reports a membership of about two million. In Toronto alone, there are 500 AA meetings a week. "This is not the first we've gone up against bigotry," says Larry of We Agnostics. "This has been an ongoing struggle in North America." One man wept in dismay over the delisting at Beyond Belief's Thursday night meeting at the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education on Bloor Street West. Thirty-two people, mostly men, sat at desks in a classroom. "I do believe in God," he said after the meeting. "But you don't need to believe in God to recover and I don't think it's appropriate at AA." The meeting opened with a statement that said, in keeping with AA tradition, the group did not endorse or oppose either religious belief or atheism. "Our only wish is to ensure suffering alcoholics that they can find sobriety in AA without having to accept anyone else's beliefs, or having to deny their own." "I've tried AA meetings and I couldn't get past the influence of right-wing Christianity," said a big, Liam Neeson look-alike. "Last night I went to a meeting and it was like a sermon again," he told the group. "I felt I should quit. "But someone told me, 'hey, go downtown, there's an atheist/agnostic meeting.' So I thought I thought I'd give AA one last chance and I came here." There's a moment's pause. "Welcome," the group said. One of the members, Roger, took issue with AA's concept of the "God of your understanding." "First, there is a gender problem (several of the steps refer to Him). But more importantly, a creator God with a personal interest in me doesn't fit well with my understanding of how the cosmos works." In January, Rev. Pete Watters, 82, and a Catholic priest, celebrated 50 years of sobriety with AA. Several thousand came to an Oakville union hall to celebrate his anniversary. He knew the roots of the movement well and travelled for seven years with the late Bill Wilson, the charismatic co-founder of AA and author of the Twelve Steps. In 1961, Wilson, whose early thinking on AA was influenced by the British evangelical Oxford Group, addressed the problems faced by non-believers. He opened the tent to all, but wrote that doubters could eventually take the first "easy" step into "the realm of faith." "People and agencies can help," Watters says, "but the only one who can restore that person to permanent sobriety is God. But that's the God of your understanding -- that can be anything you want." In AA God can be interpreted as an acronym for "good, orderly, direction," or as something that can be found in nature, a set of ethical principles, or even in the courage of fellow AA members. But it's essential to turn yourself over to something or someone other, says Watters. "If you don't believe in any power greater than yourself, you are on your own." A woman member of a group that adheres to the traditional Twelve Steps puts it this way: "You need to believe in something higher than yourself. Our self got us drunk." Different steps TWELVE STEPS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS THAT CITE GOD: 2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. 5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. 6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. 7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. 11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, prayer only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. BEYOND BELIEF'S ADAPTED TWELVE STEPS: 2. Came to accept and to understand that we needed strengths beyond our awareness and resources to restore us to sanity. 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of the AA program. 5. Admitted to ourselves without reservation, and to another human being, the exact nature of our wrongs. 6. Were ready to accept help in letting go of all our defects of character. 7. Humbly sought to have our shortcomings removed. 11. Sought through mindful inquiry and meditation to improve our spiritual awareness, seeking only for knowledge of our rightful path in life and the power to carry that out. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7414. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anonymity break, the anonymity issue From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/5/2011 10:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Abd ul-Rahman Lomax, "Gerard" , "Michael" , and Mike Portz - - - - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax (abd at lomaxdesign.com) James Blair wrote: >(1) In the following article in yesterday's paper, Pete W. (past >delegate and trustee) broke his anonymity with a full face >photograph along with giving his last name. > >(2) The article went on to describe how Toronto's two secular AA >groups -- Beyond Belief and We Agnostics -- had their listings >removed from Toronto's official directory of AA meetings. Somehow the basic integrity of the AA Traditions comes to be forgotten and Personal Opinion reigns. That news from Toronto is shocking, except for the fact that all AAs are human, and humans do stuff like this. I hope this is a transient aberration. Usually intergroups have more sense. The long form of Tradition 3: >3.) Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. >Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. >membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three >alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an >A.A. Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation. While the Traditions are like the Steps, suggested, Tradition 3 is as explicit as can be imagined. Those two groups are not "affilitated" with some group other than AA, they do not require "atheism" or "agnosticism" for membership, just as other AA groups do not require a belief in God. Given that these are "alcoholics gathered together for sobriety," it's clear that they may "call themselves" an "AA group," and that this does not depend on "conformity" to anything. While there might somewhere, sometime, be a reason for making exceptions, this isn't it, at all. As long as those groups do not represent that the form of the Steps and Traditions that they use is not the generally accepted form, there is no harm at all in allowing this difference, and that AA groups could differ from each other is very much part of what caused AA to grow so rapidly, it was part of Bill W.'s genius or inspiration. I'd encourage other AA members in Toronto, as long as the removal from the meeting list persists, to attend the meetings, and to mention these groups at other meetings, so that other members, expecially newcomers, who might need them, can find them. There is no requirement that intergroups list all meetings, though it's obviously desirable. Has this issue ever been considered by the Conference? - - - - From: "Gerard" (GRault at yahoo.com) Hmmm. I thought the only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking, and that any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group. . . Gerry - - - - From: "Michael" (mfmargetis at yahoo.com) I read the article on anonymity in Sunday's NY Times a couple of weeks ago. The author totally misses a much larger and more important aspect of breaking anonymity: it's harmful for the person who is breaking it! AA has survived plenty of relapses by public figures over the years that have broken their anonymity, so I don't think that's such a big concern any more, but the whole concept of humility is lost in his discussion, that's what jumped out at me when I read the article. Humility, sacrifice, worker among workers, these are the type of qualities that are spiritually healthy for us! A desire to be recognized, standout, be the center of attention…different…these things are poison for us. (Even if it's disguised as a way to "carry the message" ) Anyway, that's my imperfect opinion on this anonymity discussion. I'm a firm believer in the wisdom and necessity of the 11th and 12th traditions. - - - - From: Mike Portz (mportz2000 at yahoo.com) "No person speaks for A.A. as a whole." We have 12 Traditions. There are no punishments for not adhering to them. All A.A. groups and their members "have the right to be wrong." I reckon that includes being disrespectful and self-centered. Also the right to be a "horses ass." I sometimes excel at these shortcomings. (way less often then I use to) The author has a right to state his opinions both as a fellow and a USA citizen. I'm very sorry he does not choose to honor and respect the fellowship that has probably brought him and his loved ones so much. I am very much in opposition to the thinking (or lack their of) by celebrities who choose not to honor our media standards for anonymity. Beyond our media standards, personal anonymity has been left up to each individual member, hopefully with the guidance of most A.A. groups and their members "ultimate authority." I feel a vast majority of our membership in Las Vegas, and certainly many of our "celebrity" members nationwide, just don't understand anonymity or our Traditions in general, or the reasons they are so greatly important to our society and its future. I don't believe they really have any comprehension of how important these really are. Just as I didn't for way to long. In Las Vegas it seems to me that the fellowship, the groups and individual sponsors, do little to educate new or older members to the importance of anonymity, or our Traditions. Most members tend to say in meetings and agree that "oh, yes, the Traditions are very important." But if you get into a conversation about why they are important or what the mean, well its almost always a short conversation because the only real knowledge a majority of our members have about the Traditions, is how they interpret what they, the individual member, have read on the wall. That sure didn't work for me. It has taken me a long time to comprehend why we have the standard for anonymity that we do. My sponsors never took the time to educate me or tell me where I could find information to read about our anonymity, or Traditions in general, so I could understand them. Oh they did take me through the Traditions. They took about 1-2 hours total on the subject. I never have heard anyone speak to the importance of anonymity, or more importantly why it is so important in a meeting. Nor have I ever heard any of our inspirational (some call them circuit) speakers speak in depth about the subject of anonymity. When I think about it, well I don't believe I've heard a discussion on the Traditions in any Las Vegas meetings in way over a year. I do have CD's devoted to discussing the Traditions by Bob D. and Clancy I. which helped broaden my understanding of "The Twelve Points To Assure our Future." I don't believe their are more then a few meetings in Las Vegas that are solely "Traditions meetings." I finally found out that the "Traditions" and "Anonymity" are talked about and explained in depth by their author and our co-founder in the non-conference approved "Language of the Heart" as well as the "conference approved" A.A. Come of age." I did not discover they (anonymity and the Traditions) were included in these books because anybody "in a meeting" ever mentioned or stressed that all should think about they might want to read these two books by our co-founder because they explained Anonymity, the Traditions and much more by the man who basically wrote and put together most of our program. I fell into it because I had a keen interest to learn everything I could about A.A. and how it works. My point is, that maybe we A.A. members should take what the author (one of our fellows) wrote (which basically states that Anonymity is not very important to A.A. anymore) and make good usage of what I consider to be his unwarranted, illiterate and non-factual criticism, -to our hearts, our minds and mutual love for A.A. I believe we need to consider that if Anonymity and the Traditions are to remain as the "12 points to assure the future" of our society, we need to start thinking about what additional methods we could take, as a society and individuals, to "spread the word" and explain why Anonymity and the Traditions are so very important to our continued survival. Like the gentleman's article seems to state about the decline in the importance of anonymity to our fellowship, we might seriously take into consideration if it is also happening to our Traditions in general. In Fellowship, Mike Portz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7415. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Disease concept of alcoholism From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/5/2011 9:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Devoid of all humility, may I suggest googling "Alcoholics Anonymous and the Disease Concept of Alcoholism" by clicking on this link: http://tinyurl.com/6b593cx -- or going directly to Ernest Kurtz, Ph.D., "Alcoholics Anonymous and the Disease Concept of Alcoholism" at: http://www.addictioninfo.org/articles/1048/1/Alcoholics-Anonymous-and-the-Di seas\ e-Concept-of-Alcoholism/Page1.html [19] -- or to use another link to this article, by going to http://tinyurl.com/ys4kgo One may link also to related articles at http://www.bhrm.org/papers/addpapers.htm -- ernie kurtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7416. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Disease concept of alcoholism From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/5/2011 8:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Historical antecedents: early Fifth Tradition, E. M. Jellinek, and also OXFORD GROUP PRESUPPOSITIONS. I believe that in one of the very early versions of the Fifth Tradition it reads "suffers alcoholism" -- which I have heard it suggested may mean "doesn't yet know there is a way out" -- presumably therefore particularly needing to have the message carried to him (or her). As to the "disease concept," the understanding of that term by Yale and Bunky Jellinek -- which is certainly relevant here -- is given pretty fully in his 1960 book The Disease Concept of Alcoholism -- which is not the same use of the word "disease" as in the statement that the ASAM has declared alcoholism a disease. And of course, the First-Century Christians (the Oxford Group) whom the early AA people sought to emulate had a disease concept of sin -- a disease to be treated with pharmakon athanasias, the medicine of immortality. _______________________________________ Note from G.C. the moderator: the exact "medicine of immortality" phrase went all the way back to St. Ignatius of Antioch circa very early second century A.D., and before that, to the cult of the goddess Isis. A long history indeed for the notion of spiritual salvation as a healing process. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7417. . . . . . . . . . . . King School cowbell From: hphopeandjoy . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/10/2011 7:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've read somewhere that King School had a cowbell, and that the cowbell was rung to limit sharing time. Can anyone recall that reference ?? Matt IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7418. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Disease concept of alcoholism From: cometkazie1@cox.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/4/2011 9:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Isn't this thread on the history of the disease concept of alcoholism, not on members' opinions of the same? History and recovery are two very different things. Let's stick to history here. Tommy H, in Kentucky now IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7419. . . . . . . . . . . . Roizen on Jellinek From: trysh travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/5/2011 9:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ron Roizen has a blog post on E. M. Jellinek's early years at the Worcester State Hospital on the Points blog today: http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/. Trysh Travis IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7420. . . . . . . . . . . . Cow bell picture From: Michael Gwirtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/10/2011 10:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here is a photo of the cow bell at Dr. Bob's house I think. The photo id's its use at the king school. The O.G. Bell is also shown. I don't know if the photo can post. I think it is also at silkworth.net Yis, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila,PA- where Young Peoples Groups began Going to EURYPAA 2 in Dublin,Ireland In August, and NAAAW in Helena in Sept. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7421. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Source of Carl Jung quote From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/8/2011 4:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "royslev" wrote: > > Wayne Dyer quoted Carl Jung as saying "One of the main functions of formalized religion is to protect people against a direct experience of God," but he did not indicate the name of the book and the page number where Jung himself made that statement. > > There are now hundreds of places on the internet where this quotation is cited, but in every one of them which I have checked, they refer only to Wayne Dyer's work. They never give any reference to a work by Carl Jung where we could read in context what Jung himself had written on that subject. > > Can anybody give me the name of the work written by Carl Jung, with page number etc., where Jung made that statement? -- if in fact he ever did say that. > It does sound like material in some Jung letters and articles from the 1950s, although not word-for-word. In a 1954 letter to Pere Lachat, found in the book Psychology and Western Religion, pp.233-245, Jung describes the frightening aspects of encounters with God, particularly as in the Old Testament, and says (p. 234), "One feels much safer under the shadow of the Church, which serves as a fortress to protect us against God and his Spirit. It is very comforting to be assured by the Catholic Church that it "possesses" the Spirit, who assists regularly at its rites. Then one knows that he is well chained up. Protestantism is no less reassuring in that it represents the Spirit to us as something to be sought for, to be easily "drunk," even to be possessed." The most important thing to realize is that Jung did not mean the same thing by "direct experience" as the Oxford Groupers. There were 2 different meanings to "God" for Jung. The only one of interest to him as a psychologist was the "God-image" or archetype, which is an empiric reality of the psyche. It is a form of "autonomous psychic content" which can burst upon the ego in a powerful "immediate numinous experience." This God-image contains both good and evil. The other meaning of "God," the one who represents only the good, is for Jung in the province of theology and philosophy. The psychologist can only deal with the morally ambiguous God-image of the psyche. Jung received a lot of criticism on this point. The Oxford Group "vital religious experience" is of course an experience of contact with the good God. The same letter quoted above contains a tangential reference to the Oxford Group (p. 237): "Instead of taking up our cross, we are told to cast it on Christ. He will take the burden of our anguish and we can enjoy our "simple faith" at Caux. We take flight into the Christian collectivity where we can forget even the will of God, for in society we lose the feeling of personal responsibility and can swim with the current." Why does this seem so different from other things Jung said about religion? Probably because he had different views in the 1930s when he wrote, for example, Modern Man in Search of a Soul. He was much more positive about the value of religion at that point, and that is the Jung best known to the early AA people. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7422. . . . . . . . . . . . AA History: Baton Rouge and New Orleans, Louisiana From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/10/2011 10:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is a typed, single spaced page from the Louisiana Archives, which are now located adjacent to the Baton Rouge Central Office. A fellow historian asked me to transcribe (transtype?) it so it could be stored and distributed electronically. I have remained faithful to P.S.O's work, including typos, misspellings, etc. I have bracketed [ ] my comments. P.S.O. brought A.A. to Baton Rouge, the first meeting on Dec. 10, 1944. I will leave accurate dating of this document to someone more intimately familiar with him and his writing. I would guess middle '50s. ____________________________________ AA HISTORICAL DATA ON BATON ROUGE & NEW ORLEANS NEW ORLEANS :- started March, 1943, apparently by Steve G. who was called "the man with the book". this refers to an AA book, the BIG BOOK about AA which a woman from New Orleans obtained while on a visit to New York- failing to interest her son in same she gaveit [sic] to Steve who carried it around till they got meeting places, or rather until a few others arrived in New Orleans and got together with Steve G. and started a group. I knew Wally H. and one other who I thought started this group. Also there was Lefty H. and Don E. and Esty S. Lefty came from Chicago. Also a Harold D. early member. Anyway they met in Board Room of Chamber of Commerce, then in Queen & Crescent Bldg. in an aoffice [sic], then to Beauregard House ground floor until I think Frances Parkinson Keyes took over the house to live in same; then they went to an upstairs place on Poydras then to the big house of Dumaine where they had quite a club which finally folded due I think to influx of drunks more interested in a hangout [word typed over-hard to see well] than place to quit drinking- back again to Queen & Crescent Bldg where Central Office now is--meetings of many groups now held at 604 Iberville when they have open meets--(forgot to mention Frank D. as an early member. There are now 15 groups with membership of 200 or more, some say 500. There are meetings every night in the week somewhere or other in N.O.* [*No end of parentheses] BATON ROUGE;- started December 10, 1944 by a man who had been sober for 7 years at the time, who had read Sat.Eve Post article, got a book was a lone member in Shreveport from 1941 on, talked AA to anyone who wold listen and finally one of those talked to namely Jack Meredith, a non-alcoholic sent an alcoholic newsman one Rupert P. to this Pat O. who explained to Rupert what he had seen of AA in New Orleans and Little Rock where Pat had attended meetings. At Rupert's suggestion a squib was put in the paper on 12/8/44 that a group was to be started in B.R. This was vs advice of Larry J. in Houston who suggested starting group quietly by getting names of alcs. from ministers. Anyway first meeting had 7 in attendance of who 5 were alcoholics and 3 are sober now for many years and 2 have been beset with difficulties. First open meeting held at Wolf's bakery in Feb. or March of 1945 with speakers from N.O -Lefty H. also Mr. R. there. 1st Anniversary at Holsum Bakery, at which Dr. Smith from Jackson talked. Meetings held in homes, then room at Istrouma Hotel, Morning Advocate Board Room, Apt. over the Italian Gardens was a clubhouse for some months, and the Presbyterian Church parlors(1st Pres.), a detective room in the police station, then the judge's office, the Heidelberg Hotel harbored most open meetings and closed were held there for some time. Also Lucille Mae Grace got us OK on use of room under North entrance stairs to Old State Capitol for a while. We sure moved around. Membership varied from 7 or 8 up to 20 then down to 2 or 3 then up again maybe to 30 or 40, group split into two, one of which folded. Original group still holding on altho membership has turned over many times with a few always hanging on either as bleeding deacons or elder statesman acc. to who judges them. Looks like present membership of the two groups right now would be somewhere between 60 and 80 members of varying shades of activity. Judge that somewhere between 100 and 200 people are sober today as result of these groups with possibly some 400 or 500 different individuals passing thru--many come a while, then stop but stay sober some dont, [sic] some stay sober and stay active. NORTH BATON ROUGE GROUP have [sic] been going some few years ow and have done an escpecially [sic] wonderful job of starting and fostering groups of AA both at East La. State Hospital, Jackson, La. and also at La. State Prison at Angola. Clarence C. has been the real ramrod of this activity. P. S. O'Brien END OF LETTER Tommy H, still in Baton Rouge for a week or so IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7423. . . . . . . . . . . . December 1945 Grapevine pages 13 and 14 From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/10/2011 2:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A number of years ago I purchased the first set pf large Grapevines in a two-booklet format. Yesterday I was putting the reduced pages into folders for easy viewing by my homegroup and came to find out that I am missing pages 13 & 14 from December 1945. Wondering if anyone has those pages which he or she could copy for me. John Wikelius Enterprise, Alabama (justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7424. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA History tourism locations From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/5/2011 9:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Cindy Miller, Tommy H., and Woody in Akron - - - - From: Cindy Miller (cm53 at earthlink.net) Cornwall Press (now a series of artsy stores) in Cornwall, New York. Near West Point. Beautiful countryside. And the Painters Inn nearby is the one where they (Bill, etc) all stayed while the BB was being planned ... -cm - - - - From: Tommy H. (cometkazie1 at cox.net) Hugh M. wrote: "I would visit Dr. Bob's childhood home at 34 Summer Street in St. Johnsbury, Vermont. It is off the beaten path, but visiting it made the story of his early years become real to me." I think the house is also his birthplace. I attended an A.A. meeting there in the early '90s, when there were almost daily meetings. I don't know what the current schedule is. At the time, a number of counselors had offices there and they would let you roam the house as long as it didn't interfere. Another tourist attraction in St. J is the Fairbanks Museum. As far as Vermont goes, it's not off the beaten path. Tommy H, son and grandson of Vermonters - - - - From: Robt Woodson (wdywdsn at sbcglobal.net) My suggestion, in the spirit of what eventually resulted in the AA fellowship's celebrating our 76th Anniversary ... When in New york, take a moment and stand outside the site of of Towns Hospital on Central Park West ... now apartments (I was fortunate enough to have been allowed a visit inside). Reliving there, Bill's '"spiritual experience" and his vision at the time is in itself, a spiritual renewal ... see p.121 in "Pass It On" and pp. 62, 63, and 64 in "AA Comes Of Age" ... and think about his thoughts and vision for the future (of a "chain reaction" of alcoholic's working with other alcoholic's each carrying "this message and these principles to the next" (of his own determination at that time to work with other alcoholics) eventually to become the basic tenet of AA) as described on p.64 in "AA Comes of Age". It definitely moved me then...and it still does today. Keep your powder dry; and do keep being good guys and girls! Woody in Akron IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7425. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Photos of Richard Peabody and Courtenay Baylor From: Laurence Holbrook . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/6/2011 3:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I couldn't find any web pictures, but I tripped over thie A&E bio of Caresse Crosby originally Polly Jacob (1892 - 1970), Peabody's wife - prolly not terribly useful, but interesting that "Caresse Crosby helped change fashion and free women from confining corsets by getting the first patent for the modern brassiere - or as we call it now the bra." http://www.biography.com/articles/Caresse-Crosby-9262225 Caresse Crosby Biography originally Polly Jacob ( 1892 - 1970 ) Publisher, poet, and inventor. Born Mary Phelps Jacob -- but usually called Polly by friends and family -- on April 20, 1892, in New York, New York. While she spent most of her career engaged in the literary arts, Caresse Crosby helped change fashion and free women from confining corsets by getting the first patent for the modern brassiere -- or as we call it now the bra. Caresse Crosby came up with the idea for the bra in 1913 and later sold the patent for her invention. Two years later, she married Richard Rogers Peabody, and the couple had two children. The union didn't last, however, and Crosby became embroiled in a scandal when she fell in love with another man while still married to Peabody. She divorced Peabody in 1921 and married Harry Crosby the next year. Not long after moving to Paris, Caresse and Harry Crosby immersed themselves in the city's social happenings and began to travel in literary circles. She changed her name to Caresse as part of her new literary persona. Crosby published her first book, Crosses of Gold, in 1925. Her next work, Graven Images, was released the following year. Besides her own writing, Crosby and her husband established two publishing imprints: Editions Narcisse and Black Sun Press. Through their company, the Crosbys published the likes of Kay Boyle, Hart Crane, James Joyce, and Archibald MacLeish. The great partnership between Crosby and her husband crumbled after he and his mistress committed suicide in 1929. After his death, Crosby continued on as an editor and publisher, putting out collections of her late husband's work and letters as well as material by Ezra Pound and many others. In the 1930s, Caresse Crosby returned to the United States. She married Selbert Young in 1937, but the relationship ended in divorce. Crosby shared stories from her fascinating life in her 1953 memoir Passionate Years. She later moved to Rome and established an informal artistic colony of sorts at her castle home. Caresse Crosby died on January 24, 1970, in Rome. C 2011 A&E Television Networks. All rights reserved. _____ From: jax760 Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2011 Subject: Photos of Richard Peabody and Courtenay Baylor Hi Gang, Does anyone have a photo of Richard Peabody and/or Courtenay Baylor they could send me? I have a pre-Big Book literature presentation to give and would love Peabody's picture to present along with The Common Sense of Drinking portion of the prentation. Send to: > (jax760 at yahoo.com) Thanks and God Bless John Barton IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7426. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Cow bell picture From: J.BARRY MURTAUGH . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2011 1:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII where are the pics @ sikworth.net? thanks bear On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 9:59 PM, Michael Gwirtz wrote: > > Here is a photo of the cow bell at Dr. Bob's house I think. The photo id's > its use at the king school. The O.G. Bell is also shown. I don't know if the > photo can post. I think it is also at silkworth.net > Yis, > Shakey Mike Gwirtz > Phila,PA- where Young Peoples Groups began > Going to EURYPAA 2 in Dublin,Ireland > In August, and NAAAW in Helena in Sept. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7427. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Cow bell picture From: Jayaa82@earthlink.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2011 1:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It is actually in the Akron IG archives -----Original Message----- From: Michael Gwirtz Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 Subject: Cow bell picture Here is a photo of the cow bell at Dr. Bob's house I think. The photo id's its use at the king school. The O.G. Bell is also shown. I don't know if the photo can post. I think it is also at silkworth.net Yis, Shakey Mike Gwirtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7428. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The newcomer is the most important person in the room From: Byron Bateman . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/7/2011 4:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Byron Bateman, Charley Bill, Jay Pees - - - - From: "Byron Bateman" (byronbateman at hotmail.com) Bill Wilson said that the newcomer was NOT the most important person in the room, and the reason why was very important. There is a tape/CD where Bill W. gave a run-down of the traditions. The recording should be available at your intergroup office, or you could contact the GSO. Bill announced Tradition One as "The common welfare tradition." He then went on to say the following: "People used to say 'well, the drunk, he's the important person! Surely, he is. But how is he going to get well in any number, if there is no fellowship? Therefore, the common welfare has to come first, and our individual welfare second.' -- from the Bill W. Traditions Tape. If any individual would like me to send a small "wav" file of Bill's words on this, drop me an email and I'll send it to you. Byron (byronbateman at hotmail.com) - - - - From: Charley Bill (charley92845 at gmail.com) It has been commonly used in Long Beach, California in 1969 and since. There are numerous discrepancies / disagreements etc., betwee BB and the program in practice, and even within the BB, if you look carefully enough. - - - - From: Jay Pees (racewayjay at gmail.com) I first heard it in rehab in July 1984. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7429. . . . . . . . . . . . What languages did Carl Jung speak and write in? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2011 2:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Message 7421 from (corafinch at yahoo.com) spoke about the possible source of a Carl Jung quotation. Cora, or anyone else knowledgeable, what languages did Jung speak and write? What language was most of his published work in? Tommy H in Baton Rouge, for now IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7430. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anonymity break, removing non-God meetings from Toronto list From: justme489 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/9/2011 10:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Donna W. (justme489), Sober186, Jim C. (jamesoddname), Baileygc23, Joseph Nugent (jumpinjoe1), Dougbert, Jon Markle (ncsilverbear), Jim F. (f.jim53), and Jim S. (planternva) - - - - From: "justme489" (justme489 at yahoo.com) The Toronto Intergroup was correct in their actions. The moment the group(s) changed the words in the Steps they became something other than Alcoholics Anonymous. If the Intergroup Office was at fault in any way, it was the fact that the meetings were listed in the first place. I highly, highly suggest reading Concept XII, Warranty Five in the AA Service Manual (pages 69 following). Warranty Five: "That no Conference action ever be personally punitive or an incitement to public controversy." The Service Manual can be viewed on the "AA.Org" website: http://aa.org/pdf/products/en_bm-31.pdf Donna W., Corpus Christi, Texas - - - - From: Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com) As I read it, any group may call itself an AA group. If anyone can make a decision on if or if not a group is an AA group, it would hardly be an intergroup who publishes a list of meetings. It just means an intergroup which pretty much has no standing of any kind in AA is not including those groups in its list of meetings. If people don't like that intergroups determination, they can and often do, form another intergroup and publish their own list. I think it is World Services who might have authority to include or not include the two groups in question in any list of groups. At this point, we don't even know if the two groups are or were ever listed by World Services. We don't even know if either has even applied to be a group. I do have questions in my mind as to why any group which has written its own steps, different from AA steps, would WANT to call itself an AA group? Are they trying to trick drunks into joining that group instead of AA. I also wonder why any newspaper would consider this newsworthy. The editors should go out to a major shopping center and ask the first 1,000 people they see what they think about this issue ... Ask, is this important to you or not? I am sure the more popular answers would be "Huh?" "who cares?" and "Sorry, too busy to talk right now." Once upon a time politicians paid me to give them advice on handling the media. My first rule was "Don't Lie." Then came " say 'I don't know' when you really don't know" and third ... "Don't screw up on a slow news day." Maybe it was just a very, very slow news day in Toronto. - - - - From: James R (jamesoddname at yahoo.com) Invocations of Tradition 3 are OK but there is also Tradition 4: "Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or AA as a whole." The Steps belong to the fellowship as a whole and affect the outreach of all groups. A rewrite by one group strikes me as out of order. What are they going to do next? Produce their own edition of the BB with all the references to God taken out? They can finesse the "God problem" some other way. Maybe their own little group "bylaw" saying that GOD stands for "Good Orderly Direction" or something. Jim C - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) In his farewell speech to the 1986 General Service Conference http://hindsfoot.org/pearson.html Bob P. gave this warning to future generations of A.A. members: "If you were to ask me what is the greatest danger facing A.A. today, I would have to answer: the growing rigidity -- the increasing demand for absolute answers to nit-picking questions; pressure for G.S.O. to 'enforce' our Traditions; screening alcoholics at closed meetings; prohibiting non-Conference-approved literature, i.e., 'banning books'; laying more and more rules on groups and members." The spirit of real old time AA is being destroyed as more and more people are beginning to ignore one of Bill Wilson's favorite sayings: "Every group has the right to be wrong." - - - - From: Joseph Nugent from Canada (jumpinjoe1 at gmail.com) Fr. Pete has done this sort of thing here in Canada for years. He seeks out publicity, using various excuses / reasons to justify it. - - - - From: Dougbert (dougbert8 at yahoo.com) I think this whole Toronto foolishness is a perfect candidate for Rule #62: "Don't take yourself so damn seriously." Page 149, Tradition Four. We have two unwritten requirements to long-term sobriety: One, wear the A.A. program as a loose fitting suit. Two, we must all find a moral compass that allows us to look ourselves in the mirror every morning and say: "I don't spread negative karma, and today, I am not a liar, cheat, and a horse thief" . . . that fits with spiritual progress. Doug - - - - From: Jon M (ncsilverbear at yahoo.com) There is substantial literature from our Founders concerning controversy and AA groups and members. This reading from As Bill Sees It seems right on target concerning the abhorrent actions in Toronto. Our CoFounders must be rolling over in their graves! CONTROVERSY "Given enough anger, both unity and purpose are lost. Given still more 'righteous' indignation, the group can disintegrate; it can actually die. This is why we avoid controversy. This is why we prescribe no punishments for any misbehavior, no matter how grievous. Indeed, no alcoholic can be deprived of his membership for any reason whatever." - As Bill Sees It, p. 98 It does seem totally ironic that this "God" or "not God" business should garner this much controversy and public attention. Yet this member who seems to call upon his relationship with Bill Wilson, breaks one of our most sacred of all Traditions, that of anonymity. And thinks he can speak for the whole World Wide Fellowship. Not one of our traditions states that a group has to be religious or preach faith in God. Neither is a religious belief in "God" necessary to me a member of AA. But they do, very explicitly state, that we are not to break anonymity at the level of press, radio or film. In addition, no one can say anyone is not a member of AA. Neither can other groups kick another group out of AA. Sounds tragically like AA is taking a beating in Toronto from extreme fanatical, right wing, religious factions. Nothing will tear apart AA at the seams like this kind of stupid religious debate. There are thousands of different flavors of groups all over the world. We have all managed to be harmonious until now. This is a controversy that will shred AA to pieces at its very core, world wide. It will make those who believe that AA is a religion appear to be right. I am appalled and deeply saddened by this article. Sad for Toronto and sad for the beloved Fellowship that saved my life. Jon Markle, Raleigh, North Carolina - - - - From: "Jim F." (f.jim53 at rocketmail.com) We do not wish to engage in any controversy including this one. Dervishes whirl till they grow dizzy and fall down. Jim F. - - - - From: "planternva2000" (planternva2000 at yahoo.com) Does AA still have twelve traditions or have we eliminated ten of the original dozen? It seems the only traditions most members know about are number three and number eleven, and in most cases what they 'know' is mistaken. Tradition Three says that any alcoholic can be a member of AA but does not guarantee membership in a group. And I doesn't say that anyone who suffers from an addiction, compulsion or obsession is eligible for AA membership, only alcoholics. (See pamphlet P-35, "Problems Other Than Alcohol.") There is a huge outcry whenever someone breaks his anonymity at the public level, but breaking other traditions by individuals, groups or GSO is accepted. Case in point: At every convention/conference I've attended over the past several decades the meeting chairman points out the anonymity tradition, takes a breath, and announces the availability for purchase of copies of the speakers talk on CD. Tradition six discourages endorsing outside enterprise, yet we start our meetings with a commercial for the meeting's recorder, an outside enterprise. Most committees also pay for the recorder's registration and lodging. Granted, in many cases the person doing the recording is a member of AA, but his recording business is his occupation, by which he makes his living. Many conference / convention attendees are doctors, plumbers, merchants, etc. Should we have the meeting chairpeople advertise those occupations also? Jim S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7431. . . . . . . . . . . . Biographies of the authors of the Big Book stories From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/28/2011 1:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is there an actual book, hardcopy or online, on the authors of the personal stories in the original first edition? I have seen the short biographies at: http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html but would like to see more of the information on these AA pioneers, including original sobriety dates (as best they are) and whether or not they stayed sober. Thank you for any help In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst - - - - Message #63 from Nancy Olson Sat Apr 6, 2002 BB Authors -- Author unknown, Akron, OH. "Ace Full-Seven-Eleven." Buffs, I have been preparing short biographies of authors of the stories in the Big Book, including all three editions, plus one story which appeared only in the Original Manuscript (OM). I have reviewed all the books published by A.A. World Services and the A.A. Grapevine, plus all the books I could locate written about A.A. or by any of its members. A few I acknowledge at the end of individual stories. In this endeavor I have been helped enormously by other members of the Buffs. Some of these supplied information about only about one or two of the authors. In those cases I will acknowledge them when I post the individual biographies on which they helped. But there are a few people who have been of such help in providing information that I must acknowledge them here: Lee C. in California, who first got me interested in A.A. history; Jim B. in Canada who has sent me large files full of information on A.A.'s history; Barefoot Bill in Pennsylvania, who has sent both information and a video of one of the authors' talks; Ron L. and Ted H. in California who have sent me tapes of some of the authors' talks. (Ron also sent me information on Jim Burwell which I had not known.) But there is one man who does not want to be acknowledged. "I don't like to take credit for anything I do for A.A.," is I think how he put it. But this man not only proofread and offered editorial suggestions on the nearly 150 pages, but also researched the net to find information for me. So I will risk his friendship by saying THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, to Tony C. of Texas. To me the amazing thing about all this is that I have never met any of these benefactors in person. I've done my level best to be sure the stories are accurate. Nonetheless, I am sure there are mistakes. Please send any corrections or additional information to me personally rather than to the whole list, giving me your sources for the information (no guess work please). If it seems appropriate I will then post a corrected biography, giving credit where due for the new information. Here is the first, the only story in the original manuscript which was not included in the first edition. Nancy - - - - From GC the moderator: the earliest versions of these biographies are probably the ones which Nancy Olson was referring to here, the ones that were posted on the AAHistoryLovers when it first began, which can be read as AAHistoryLovers Messages 63,64, 65 . . . 137. There are newer versions available, but this is a case where the newer versions may or may not be more accurate -- you have to look at each change in wording individually and evaluate whether the change was in fact justified by new and better data -- the people who originally put these stories together for the AAHistoryLovers (Nancy Olson, Lee C., Jim B., Barefoot Bill, Ron L., Ted H., and Tony C.) were very careful and talented historians, and did extraordinarily good work. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7432. . . . . . . . . . . . Reading in early AA From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2011 9:42:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can anyone help me locate in early AA literature or correspondence thoughts or advice about the advisability/utility of reading (other than the Big Book) OR about the possible dangers of such reading? I am wondering especially about some of the early pamphlet literature put out in Akron.* With gratitude to many for much help in the past, ernie kurtz ================================ The early Akron pamphlets http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html (a little below the middle of the page) THE AKRON MANUAL: A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous first half: http://hindsfoot.org/AkrMan1.html and second half: http://hindsfoot.org/AkrMan2.html Second Reader for Alcoholics Anonymous http://hindsfoot.org/Akr2dRdr.pdf Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous http://hindsfoot.org/AkrSpir.pdf THE AKRON GUIDE TO THE TWELVE STEPS: A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous http://hindsfoot.org/Akr12.html ================================ The old Akron reading list for A.A. beginners (A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous: THE AKRON MANUAL, published by the Akron group in late 1939 or early 1940, with Dr. Bob's approval we must assume, gives a list at the end of recommended readings for newcomers to A.A., so that they might better understand the spiritual aspects of the program. "The following literature," the pamphlet says, "has helped many members of Alcoholics Anonymous.") Alcoholics Anonymous (the Big Book). The Holy Bible. (The Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7, the letter of James, 1 Corinthians 13, and Psalms 23 and 91 were all mentioned earlier in the pamphlet. These were favorite passages, particularly the Sermon on the Mount, for early twentieth century classical Protestant liberals. The enormously popular book by Adolf Harnack, What Is Christianity? was a major liberal Protestant manifesto. Christianity was about the simple teaching of the historical Jesus, as shown especially in passages like the Sermon on the Mount, not about complex doctrines and dogmas cast in pagan Greek philosophical terms. These terms appear nowhere in the Bible, Harnack said, and were a later medieval distortion. Real Christianity was not about saying the right technical doctrinal words, but about showing love and compassion towards our fellow human beings. As the Letter of James said, "Faith without works is dead." The Upper Room, which was the meditational book most often used by early A.A.'s before Richmond Walker's Twenty-Four Hour book came along in 1948, was published by the classical Protestant liberals and was a good statement of their fundamental principles: starting the day with prayer and meditation, with short Bible verses for each day's reading that stressed dependence on God as our loving Father and walking with Jesus and his love in our hearts, God-consciousness, doing good, and showing love to everyone around us.) The Greatest Thing in the World, Henry Drummond. The Unchanging Friend, a series (Bruce Publishing Co., Milwaukee). As a Man Thinketh, James Allen. The Sermon on the Mount, Emmet Fox (Harper Bros.). The Self You Have to Live With, Winfred Rhoades. Psychology of Christian Personality, Ernest M. Ligon (Macmillan Co.). Abundant Living, E. Stanley Jones. The Man Nobody Knows, Bruce Barton. ================================ Message #1926 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1926 The Early Akron A.A. Reading List, Part 1 of 5 Message #1930 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1930 [The Akron Reading List Part 2 of 5] Message #1927 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1927 [The Akron Reading List Part 3 of 5] Message #1928 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1928 The Akron Reading List Part 4 of 5 (notes #1-3) Message #1929 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1929 [The Akron Reading List Part 5 of 5 (notes #4-6)] ================================ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7433. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Reading in early AA: early Grapevine recommendations From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/20/2011 3:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Early Grapevines had a section called "The Pleasures of Reading" ........ lots of good recommendations. The column stopped though after a few years. Regards John B IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7434. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Reading in early AA: the Evan W. pamphlets at Akron From: Gary Neidhardt . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/20/2011 3:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Ernie, I'm sure you already have the folder provided by the Akron Intergroup that is provided when one buys the five standard Evan W. pamphlets. But just in case some folks here don't have that information, here's how it reads: "This historical Literature was written by Evan W. at the request of Dr. Bob. He felt that the newly written Big Book was too difficult for the blue-collar worker to read. Evan was a former writer for the newspaper and wrote "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous" in 1941, followed by "A Second Reader for Alcoholics Anonymous". These pamphlets were completed by 1950 and reflected the arly mindset of Akron's earliest members. This literature is preconference and is still serving members of A.A. around the world." Gary Neidhardt IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7435. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What languages did Carl Jung speak and write in? From: David Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/14/2011 7:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From David Brown and Bryan Reid - - - - David Brown (copperas44 at yahoo.com) German and some French and English. - - - - From: Bryan Reid (humblephoenix at gmail.com) Like most Swiss, Jung was multi-lingual. His primary language was German. The majority, if not all, of his works were written and originally published in German. As a Swiss, he probably would have also spoken either French or Italian, or both. I know he was reasonably fluent in English. Beyond that, I have no idea. Bryan IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7436. . . . . . . . . . . . Rowland Hazard and Carl Jung From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/19/2011 9:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII VERIFICATION OF C. G. JUNG’S ANALYSIS OF ROWLAND HAZARD AND THE HISTORY OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS [Dr. Bluhm discovered a letter from Rowland Hazard dated May 15, 1926 and other documents which talked about Rowland going to Carl Jung for psychoanalysis in that year -- that is, in 1926, NOT in 1931.] Amy Colwell Bluhm, Independent Practice. Correspondence concerning this article should be addressed to Amy Colwell Bluhm, 2930 N. 85th Street, Milwaukee, WI 53222. E-mail: amykindred@yahoo.com History of Psychology 2006, Vol. 9, No. 4, 313–324 Copyright 2006 by the American Psychological Association 1093-4510/06/$12.00 DOI: 10.1037/1093-4510.9.4.313 Extant historical scholarship in the Jungian literature and the Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) literature does not provide a complete picture of the treatment of Rowland Hazard by C. G. Jung, an analysis that AA co-founder Bill Wilson claimed was integral to the foundation of AA in theory and practice. Wilson’s original report resulted in archivists and historians incorrectly calibrating their searches to the wrong date. The current work definitively solves the mystery of the timing of Hazard’s treatment with Jung by placing his preliminary analysis with Jung in the year 1926, rather than 1930 or 1931. Previously unexamined correspondence originating from Jung, Hazard, his cousin Leonard Bacon, his uncle Irving Fisher, and his aunt Margaret Hazard Fisher is supplemented by relevant primary and secondary source material. Keywords: Bill Wilson, Ebby Thatcher, analytical psychology, Leonard Bacon, conversion The fact is that there was at the very least a considerable exaggeration of the length and depth of Rowland Hazard’s contact with Carl Jung in Switzerland. Part of the Hazard-Jung story, as recounted in later AA sources, was clearly more legend than historical reality. - Richard Dubiel (2004), The Road to Fellowship, p. 71 I’ve had an hour with Dr. Jung every day except holidays. I think we get on splendidly. The first day he saw me, J. asked for dreams. That night I had three corkers—He read them and remarked “these are fine, fine—but for God’s sake don’t dream anymore.” We’ve been at work interpreting them and it all seems most fascinating and logical to me. - Rowland Hazard to Leonard Bacon, May 15, 1926, LBC Bill Wilson, the co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA), believed Rowland Hazard’s analysis with Jung was integral to the beginnings of the society. It follows, therefore, that, first, proving that the analysis took place, and, second, reconstructing the further context for the interaction of Jung, Rowland Hazard, and, eventually, AA, is important to the historiography of the organization. To face these two challenges, first an exposition of the history of Rowland Hazard’s analysis and AA will be presented as it has been reconstructed to date. The first story, that of Bill Wilson, and the latest historical work, that of Richard Dubiel (2004), will begin and end this exposition. Within the current research, a serendipitous discovery, highlighted below, brought forth the context from which to draw the confirming documentation to this conundrum. Using this discovery as spring board, the larger Hazard family history provides context for Rowland Hazard’s analysis in 1926 and the events preceding and following it. The Literature to Date Bill Wilson’s Version The words of Bill Wilson set the stage for subsequent renderings of the story of Rowland Hazard’s interaction with Jung, warranting extensive citation of Wilson’s words. Two sources will be used for this citation. The first is a transcription of Bill Wilson’s attempt, in 1954, to record his autobiographical information through dictation (Wilson, 2000). The second source is Bill Wilson’s much quoted initial letter to Jung in 1961, in which Wilson thanked the aged psychologist for his role in the foundation of AA. In the dictation of 1954, Bill Wilson tells it this way: A well-known American businessman named Rowland Hazard had gone to Zurich, Switzerland, probably in the year 1930 [. . .] as the court of last resort [. . .]. Hazard remained with Dr. Jung a whole year; desperately wanting to resolve his problem, he gave fullest cooperation [. . .] he believed himself cured [. . .] he left the doctor to face the world [. . .]. Yet, in a matter of weeks, he got drunk [. . .] returned to Dr. Jung in utter despair [. . .] he asked the good doctor and got a reply that was to make AA history [. . .] Dr. Jung humbly confessed that he had poor success with alcoholics, that he was capable of doing nothing whatever for Rowland [. . .]. Then Carl Jung made another statement [. . .] “Occasionally, Rowland, alcoholics have recovered through spiritual experience, better known as religious conversions. . . . the kind of religious experience that reaches into the depths of man, that changes his whole motivation.” (Wilson, 2000, pp. 123–125) Seven years later, Bill Wilson composed a letter of appreciation to Jung, relating the story of Hazard yet again: Having exhausted other means of recovery from his alcoholism, it was about 1931 that [Hazard] became your patient. I believe he remained under your care for perhaps a year [. . .] he left you with a feeling of much confidence [. . .] he soon relapsed [. . .] certain you were his “court of last resort,” he again returned to your care. Then followed the conversation between you that was to become the first link in the chain of events that led to the founding of Alcoholics Anonymous. (cited in Sikorsky, 1990, p. 8–9) Literature on the Foundation of AA At least two authors (Kurtz, 1988; B. Dick, 1999) identify advice given by C. G. Jung to Rowland Hazard as a source for the foundation of Alcoholics Anonymous. Bill Wilson declared Jung’s statement to Hazard “set Alcoholics Anonymous in motion” (Wilson, 2000, p. 125). With varying degrees of reliance on Bill Wilson’s template, the existing literature on the history of AA follows this general outline. Wilson, prior to founding AA, was influenced by the recovery of his friend, Ebby Thatcher (Bair [2003], Jung’s most recent biographer, skips Ebby Thatcher all together and states “When [Hazard] returned to the United States [after having seen Jung], he told his friend Bill W., another seemingly hopeless alcoholic, of his conversion experience” [p. 377]). Thatcher had recovered after he was taken under the wing of three Oxford Group members (The Oxford Group was an evangelical group established by Frank Buchman which became international in scope), including Rowland Hazard. Hazard had recovered by heeding advice from C. G. Jung to have a “vital spiritual experience” (O’Neil, 1998) in order to heal finally from his affliction. This is recognized as foundational to the history of the entire AA movement (Kurtz, 1988, p. 33). However, none of those documenting this piece of AA’s roots seems to be able to say anything further about Hazard’s work with Jung, other than that Jung confirms, in the much later (1961) correspondence with Bill Wilson, that he remembers his work with Rowland Hazard. Here is a summary of the storyline as it has been developed to this point in the secondary literature. At least one report claims Hazard initially wanted to go to Sigmund Freud, but Freud was too busy to take him on (O’Neil, 1998). Bill Wilson, in his appreciative letter to Jung, identifies Hazard as having visited Jung “about 1931” (cited in Sikorsky, 1990, p. 8). Most authors, especially recently, have therefore settled on the year of 1931 as the one in which Rowland Hazard was initially analyzed by Jung. It is stated matter-of-factly in at least two accounts. O’Neil (1998) states “In, 1931, still drinking, at 50, Hazard traveled to Zurich, Switzerland, where he consulted Dr. Carl Gustav Jung—then considered, with the possible exception of Freud, the finest psychiatrist in the world.” Finlay’s account has Hazard visiting Jung “some time during 1930” (2000, p. 4). Bair (2003) states “[Jung] saw the patient Roland (many of the authors misspell Hazard’s first name) H., an American alcoholic, in 1931, for either several weeks or as much as a year (accounts differ)” (p. 377). Kurtz (1988) gives this account: Sometime in 1931, another man, a young (he was born in 1881, making him 50 at the time), talented, and wealthy financial wizard, had found himself on the verge of despair over his inability to control his drinking. Having attempted virtually every other “cure,” he turned to one of the greatest medical and psychiatric talents of the time, traveling to Zurich, Switzerland, to place himself under the care of Dr. Carl Gustav Jung. (p. 8) Hazard’s treatment by Jung is recounted as lasting “close to a year” (Kurtz, 1988, p. 8), “over a year” (Pittman, 1988, p. 154), “some months” (Hartigan, 2000, p. 57), “more than a year” (Finlay, 2000, p. 4) and, in the first of such claims, White (1998) relates: A just-completed review (continuing Wally P.’s initial investigations) into the Rowland H[azard] Papers at the Rhode Island Historical Society reveals no evidence that Rowland was treated by Jung and suggests that, if such treatment did occur between 1930–1934, it was for a much shorter period (a few weeks). (p. 128) According to White, this review was undertaken by the Rhode Island Historical Society’s then-curator, Rick Stattler. The treatment itself consisted of uncovering Hazard’s “defected personality structure . . . The hidden springs and warped motors of his unconscious mind stood starkly revealed” (Wilson, 2000, p. 124, also similarly related in Pittman, 1988). The next step in the general outline has Hazard leaving, relapsing after supposedly being cured by Jung, and returning to Zu¨rich “immediately” (O’Neil, 1998), “soon” (Kurtz, 1988, p. 8), “in a matter of weeks” (Wilson, 2000, p. 194), or “a year later” (Bair, 2003, p. 377). Bill Wilson, in his 1961 letter to him, regarded Jung’s “candid and humble statement” that Hazard’s condition was beyond medical and psychiatric help, as “beyond doubt the first foundation stone upon which our [Alcoholics Anonymous] society has since been built” (cited in Sikorsky, 1990, p. 9). Jung allegedly spoke with candor, telling Hazard that medical help, including psychiatric help, would not cure him (Kurtz, 1988; Wilson, 2000; Raphael, 2000; Cheever, 2004). Hazard’s only hope, counseled Jung, was “aligning himself with a religious organization and achieving a religious or conversion experience” (Anonymous, 1998, p. 5), or was a “vital spiritual experience” (O’Neil, 1998), or “lay in religion” (Hartigan, 2000, p. 57), or “some type of religious conversion” (Finlay, 2000, p. 4), or “spiritual experience” (Cheever, 2004, p. 112). Bair (2003) claims that Jung told Hazard, more specifically, to join the Oxford Group (p. 377). Most importantly, Bill Wilson declared that the chain of events that led to the founding of AA “was directly founded on [Jung’s] own humility and deep perception” (cited in Sikorsky, 1990, p. 13) in his treatment of Rowland Hazard. The Road to Fellowship Most recently, Richard Dubiel (2004) has issued a prodigious account of the early history of Alcoholics Anonymous. Dubiel also, like White (1998), worked with the assistance of Rick Stattler at the Rhode Island Historical Society. Again Stattler plumbed the Hazard Family Papers (HFP) in the society’s manuscript collection. Dubiel highlighted some of the problems for documenting the connection to date: the review of the HFP found Hazard to be in Europe for, at most, two months during the year 1931, and this seemingly for a family trip. Hazard “left behind almost no extant letters of his own” (Dubiel, 2004, p. 64). The evidence, to Dubiel, appears to be largely anecdotal, lacking supportive documentation. Dubiel suggests that perhaps the family was highly embarrassed to have one of their members in need of a psychiatrist. Finally, Dubiel concludes: The fact is that there was at the very least a considerable exaggeration of the length and depth of Rowland Hazard’s contact with Carl Jung in Switzerland. Part of the Hazard-Jung story, as recounted in later AA sources, was clearly more legend than historical reality. (p. 71) The Serendipitous Discovery The current findings began in the simple act of reading the Sunday morning paper. The Washington Post on May 3, 2004, included a short review of a newly published biography of Bill Wilson authored by Susan Cheever (2004): “Wilson had a friend named Ebby Thatcher, another alcoholic, who had a friend named Roland Hazard (sic), yet another drunk, who was wealthy enough to seek help from psychiatrist Carl Jung.” I recognized the surname of the analysand and connected it to another research project. Pursuing this lead, I was able to locate documentation that has been elusive to historians to date. The connection is detailed as follows. At the time of this opportune perusal of the Washington Post, I was in the midst of my dissertation project—a historical reconstruction of the life of Carol Sawyer Baumann (1897–1958), a previously unknown early member of the Zurich circle of Jungians. Her mother was Margaret Hazard Fisher, a descendant of the Rhode Island woolen magnate, Rowland Hazard (1763–1835). Sawyer Baumann relocated to Zu¨rich in 1929 and lived there for the remainder of her life. I had certainly known of a connection between Jung and AA, but that morning I was intrigued by the coincidence of the Hazard family name and the timing of the analyses of Carol Sawyer Baumann and Rowland Hazard. The Hazards are a prominent New England family with a deep history documented in numerous archival collections. Previous work with the effects of Rowland Hazard has focused on the Rhode Island Historical Society (RIHS). It happened that, as I read the paper that Sunday morning, I was about to embark on a data-gathering sojourn to the RIHS to fill in some of the Carol Sawyer Baumann narrative. On that same trip, I worked through the Leonard Bacon collection in the Beinecke Rare Manuscripts Library at Yale. Leonard Bacon was Carol Sawyer Baumann’s first cousin. A search of the Guide to the Hazard Family Papers, issued by the RIHS, revealed that Bacon and Sawyer Baumann had another first cousin: Rowland Hazard. In 1925, Leonard Bacon (1887–1954) had analysis with C. G. Jung in Zurich. Bacon was the son of Rowland Hazard’s father’s (Rowland G. Hazard II) sister Helen and Nathaniel Bacon. Leonard Bacon was a renowned author and Pulitzer prize-winning poet. He wrote about his analysis experience in extended form in the book Animula Vagula (1926) and also referred to it in his autobiographical work Semi-centennial (1939). Carol Sawyer Baumann, another of Rowland Hazard’s first cousins, following on Leonard Bacon’s advice, went to Zu¨rich in 1929 and lived there for the remainder of her life as Jung’s analysand, full member of the early circle of Jungians, and writer and researcher in her own right (Bluhm, 2005). Given this information, the further context for Rowland Hazard’s analysis with Jung begins to open up. Documentation for the Connection The Hazard Family As stated previously, the year of Rowland Hazard’s initial visit to Jung was in 1926, not in the 1930s. What follows is a preliminary and humble reconstruction, using the facts currently available. Further documentation may follow after historians recalibrate for the year 1926. In addition, the narrative can be further contextualized by including the larger, Hazard family connection to Jung and the early circle of Jungians and by juxtaposing a reconstruction of Hazard’s analysis with Jung with an historical examination of Jung’s emerging conceptions. The substantial pieces of this documentation were found in the Leonard Bacon Collection (LBC) at the Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library at Yale University, with supplemental documentation from other primary and secondary sources. As to the larger Hazard family connections to Jung and the early Jungian circle, the story is of these three cousins. The first, and by far the most important, is Leonard Bacon. Following his own analysis, Bacon played a heavy role in the eventual analysis of both of his cousins, Carol Sawyer Baumann and Rowland Hazard. Curiously, though Rowland Hazard and Carol Sawyer Baumann’s tales overlap to a surprising degree in addition to the fact that they were first cousins, there has, as yet, been no correspondence found between Hazard and Sawyer Baumann. And, although there is mention of Rowland Hazard in correspondence directed towards Carol Sawyer Baumann, she makes no mention of him in her own writing, nor is there any extant correspondence between the two in Carol Sawyer Baumann’s extensive remaining effects (BP). Nonetheless, Rowland Hazard and Carol Sawyer Baumann’s analyses happened concurrently, and there are interesting parallels. Throughout, they both relied heavily on Leonard Bacon. The Correspondence The initial correspondence relevant to Hazard’s analysis is between his cousin, Leonard Bacon, and Kristine Mann (1873–1945), a New York Jungian analyst. Mann’s letter of April 13, 1926, reads, in part: Your cousin has not communicated with me again and I realized that I had been most unbusinesslike, I had not even taken down his name and address. I did not know whether the interview I had had with him was “social” or “professional.” In short I did not know quite where I stood (personal communication, [LBC, “Zurich” folder]). Just over a month later, Rowland Hazard corresponded directly with Leonard Bacon from Zurich on May 15, 1926: Dear Leonard, After various fussiness and social necessities had been attended to in London, Paris and Brussels, we arrived here May 6th. We are most comfortably established and this hotel is all you said of it. It has rained five days out of the nine we’ve been here but nevertheless I’ve had a lot of hand tennis, some fine walks, and some golf. . . . [Toni] Wolff saw us both on the seventh and since then I’ve had an hour with Dr. Jung every day except holidays. I think we get on splendidly. The first day he saw me, Jung asked for dreams. That night I dreamed three corkers—He read them and remarked “these are fine, fine—but for God’s sake don’t dream anymore” We’ve been at work interpreting them and it all seems most fascinating and logical to me. Old boy, this is the dope for me, I’m sure. Thank God for it, and for you for sending me here. We have a temporary difficulty in that Jung says Helen [Hazard, Rowland’s wife] can’t be analyzed—because she doesn’t really want to be. Jung and I are plotting to get around that with some success I think. She goes to Paris tomorrow night for a wild week alone. When she gets back Jung promises to get at her. Good luck to you, love to Patty [Leonard Bacon’s wife] please. Yours devotedly, R. H. Many thanks for your letter and the letters of introduction! (personal communication, [LBC]) Shortly after this came a letter from C. G. Jung himself. He echoes and elaborates on Rowland Hazard’s remarks about his wife: My dear Mr. Bacon, Hazard and his wife are here. I began work with him, not yet with her as she still feels, as if he were all wrong and as if she had achieved a remarkable adaptation. (The latter being the most cherished hobby of her mind—for the time being at least) But next week she will have an hour with me. I suppose she will continue with our most beloved Toni [Wolff], who—by the way—is doing splendid work. (personal communication, C. G. Jung to Leonard Bacon, May 16, 1926, [LBC, “Jung, C. G.” folder]) Further into the analysis, Rowland Hazard shares more extensively on the same topics: Dear Leonard, First, I want to acknowledge your very kind letter, which came some time ago, and next, to apologize for leaving it so long unanswered. Since you have been through this mill, you will understand that for a time at least, the hours seem too short for what one has to do, and further the inclination to write is lacking. We have been here just a month tomorrow, and though it is too soon to make any very decided statement, I feel that a decided advance has been made. Things did not go so well at first, because Helen, being scared, assumed such a standoffish attitude that Jung told me that it was useless for him to attempt an analysis—and so did not see her for about ten days. However, her attitude changed, (apparently due to a trip to Paris) and Jung finally consented to try again. Since that time, I have seen him only once or twice, for she has had every hour. Apparently they are getting on swimmingly. Helen’s resistances have mostly broken down, and Jung speaks almost enthusiastically of her as a pupil. I start in again tomorrow, after muddling my brain quite thoroughly over the “Collected Papers.” (Reference here: Jung, C. G. [1917a]. C. Long [Ed.], Collected papers on analytical psychology. London: Baillie`re, Tindall and Cox.) It does seem to me that we are preceding with a regrettable slowness, but of course Jung knows what is best. If the pace is not accelerated, it seems to me we will get back just in time for Thanksgiving. (Reference here: If this was the completion time, this initial analysis lasted 6 months, at least.) As far as I’m concerned, the process has gone as far as unpacking the conscious quite thoroughly, I believe. We have done some dreams and got a good deal out of the unconscious also, but unless I miss my guess, there is a lot more to come. It appears I am a MAGNIFICENT dreamer, producing the most astonishing phantasies almost at command. The first day Jung asked me to write down any dreams that came that night. I had no less than three corkers. After Jung read them he whistled, and said “Please don’t dream anymore for awhile.” Obedient to command, I didn’t dream again until directed to. To sum up, I am very pleased with Helen’s progress, and a little dissatisfied with my own. Jung stated in the beginning that he would deal with my conscious, and turn me over to Toni for my other side. I am frightfully keen on the analysis, and it is rumored here that Jung is going somewhere on the 15 of July—impossible to get confirmation or denial. Maybe I’m slower than molasses in winter, but I’m doing all I can to co-operate. As to health, Helen is better than she has been in a long time—natural effect of a relieved tension, plus plenty of out-door exercise. I feel fine, too, though a little worried that I am missing something. Some kind fairy got me elected to the GRASS-HOPPERS CLUB of Zurich, which means I can get all the tennis I want—so between that and the golf here, I am certainly not shy of exercise. Please give my best love to Patty, whom I hope is quite recovered by this time. Also to the children. As to you old man, I certainly never can be grateful enough to you for putting me wise to analysis as taught and practice by Herr Dr. C. G. Jung. Your affectionate cousin, R.H. (personal communication, R. Hazard to L. Bacon, June 6, 1926, [LBC]). Later in June, Kristine Mann corresponded again with Leonard Bacon, remarking: “I was glad to hear that both Mr. and Mrs. Hazard got up their courage to go in for analysis together. It is by far the best way. I shall be most interested to hear how they progress” (personal communication, Kristine Mann to Leonard Bacon, June 18, 1926, [LBC, “Zurich” folder]). Mann states that she was replying to an April 15th letter from Leonard Bacon. The rest of Hazard’s initial visit to Zu¨rich has yet to be documented. Searches in Margaret Hazard Fisher’s diary, the Fisher Papers, the Baumann Papers, and the Leonard Bacon Collection have yielded no further correspondence. Interestingly, Carol Sawyer (later Baumann) set sail on July 9 of the next year (1927) from New York on board the Cunard R.M.S. Aquitania. She was bound for London and for analysis with Dr. H. G. Baynes (Helton Godwin “Peter” Baynes, M. D. [1882–1943]. According to Barbara Hannah [1976], Baynes was C. G. Jung’s first medically qualified assistant and continued in that capacity until returning home to England in 1922. At that time, he became the leader of the newly formed Analytical Psychology Club in London [Kirsch, 2000]. Baynes traveled to Africa with Jung in 1925, after the tragic death of his second wife. He spent a year’s sabbatical in northern California in 1928 during which time Sawyer was there as well. Baynes translated many of Jung’s works into English, some along with his third wife, Cary Fink de Angulo Baynes. He died of a brain tumor in 1943). Her intention was to stay for six weeks (personal communication, July 9, 1927, M. H. Fisher diary [FP]). She stayed until returning via the Arabic on October 15 the same year. If Carol Sawyer made no reference to her cousin, her father, in a letter to Sawyer’s mother during the time of Sawyer’s London analysis, could not resist the comparisons: I have just written Carol a long letter largely about Roy [Rowland Hazard] and alcohol but with no mention of your letter to me nor of her drinking. I gave the story of Isbell and Emery also some things about Roy. I queried whether Jung had not weakened Roy’s self reliance . . . I said I had found no embarrassment in declining wines in Paris, Geneva, or Rome and many do as a matter of course. I said once I had my glass filled when my head was turned. Then I tasted it from curiosity as I had tasted none for years. It tasted good but I drank none beyond that taste as I wanted the full possession of my faculties and knew I couldn’t have it if I drank an appreciable amount, etc. etc. (personal communication, Irving Fisher to Margaret Hazard Fisher, September 11, 1927 [FP]) During the time of Carol Sawyer’s London analysis, Rowland Hazard embarked on an “African expedition,” setting sail on September 21, 1927 (personal communication, M. H. Fisher diary [FP]). In the early months of 1928, several letters were exchanged regarding Hazard’s African trip. Those following all regard an apparent “illness” suffered by Hazard during his time away from home. At this time, this author cannot offer a definitive interpretation of what happened to him during his expedition. However, this author will conjecture, based on several clues within the documentation and an understanding of the family, that this was the time of Hazard’s supposed relapse. It also seems likely that Leonard Bacon was sent to retrieve Hazard and usher him back into Jung’s care. According to the available documentation, the timeline is as follows. On January 20, 1928, Leonard Bacon told Carol Sawyer: “I am not sailing till March 10th, as Roy can’t leave Africa for at least a month. They were to take him to Nairobi today, a hundred and fifty miles in an ambulance. What a world” (personal communication [BP]). Close to this date, Bacon’s aunt sent him a letter containing within it two additional letters. The first was a letter from Margaret Hazard Fisher to Rowland “Roy” Hazard, the second to Leonard from his uncle, Irving Fisher. The initial letter included the following instructions: My dear Leonard, [. . .] Will you give the enclosed to Roy when you meet, please? There is nothing in it but a message of love. Read it if you like. I agree with Uncle Irving that probably his letter to you should not be shown to Roy. But do stiffen him up in the principals involved, in which Susan (Reference here: Possibly Susan Bacon Keith [1889 –1980], Leonard Bacon’s younger sister [HFP]) agrees with us very heartily. (personal communication, Margaret Hazard Fisher to Leonard Bacon, March 9, 1928 [LBC]) The letters to “Roy,” and about him, follow: My dear Roy, There is much rejoicing in our hearts that you are so much better and able to heal after the long hard illness. I know from my London experience in 1889 what an awful thing an illness away from home can be—but I had dear Aunt Caroline to watch over me—and you, you dear, were entirely alone! I hope you got some of the wire-less messages of love and affection which we sent you in the hardest days of your illness? With dear love from us both, and every good wish that the new strength of body and soul is coming back in full measure. I am, Always yours affectionately, Aunt Margie. (personal communication, Margaret Hazard Fisher to Rowland Hazard, March 8, 1928 [LBC]) Dear Leonard, Like everybody else I’m delighted to know that Roy has come to himself. I much hope he will stay put. From twenty years’ study of hygiene I believe one of the most essential conditions to prevent backsliding is total abstinence (Reference here: Irving Fisher was a vocal and written proponent of prohibition, penning, in particular Prohibition at Its Worst [Fisher, 1926]. According to his biographer, Fisher’s “feelings about alcohol were very strong. Whenever the subject came up, he was pat to repeat what he regarded as a truism: A man who has had one beer is one beer drunk” [Allen, 1993, p. 193]. His writing was criticized because, although factually correct, he failed to contain his strong bias in his interpretation of the facts [Allen, ibid]). I suspect that Roy’s change of heart is largely due to the gradual elimination from his brain of alcoholic poison. If he puts it back it will again corrode his moral fiber. Of course there are many other conditions for keeping well physically, mentally, and morally; but if I have the right picture of Roy this one is the most important, certainly among the physical ones. He already knows perhaps more than I do about the mental ones. I have often felt the impulse to write Roy, but, rightly or wrongly I generally avoid preaching to an individual unless specially invited. If you think best and can get Roy to ask me to talk with him I am sure I could be of very great help not only in convincing him re: alcohol but in a dozen other ways, which, taken together may be just as important. But I am now writing on this one theme which I fear may be overlooked by Roy and his friends. I hope that you agree with me, and will, as occasion offers, do your best to induce Roy, if he needs inducing, to keep, or get, on the water wagon. Please give him my love with Aunt Margie’s. But I fear this letter might, if shown him, reach him the wrong way. As ever, Uncle Irving. (personal communication, Irving Fisher to Leonard Bacon, March 9, 1928 [LBC]) It is important to note that these three letters are still together in the Leonard Bacon Collection at Yale’s Beinecke Library. Given this, it is most likely that the letter from Margaret Hazard Fisher never made it into Rowland Hazard’s hands. Curiously, Leonard Bacon, in his autobiography (1939), remarked “Troubles not my own took me to Europe again in the spring of 1928” (p. 193). At that time, Bacon reportedly visited Jung at his summer home at Bollingen, this time meeting the great doctor as a friend rather than as a patient. This lends credence to the theory that Bacon met Hazard and brought him back to Jung. On March 10, 1928, “Leonard Bacon sails today to meet Roy and Pierre [Thomas P. “Pierre” Hazard, Rowland Hazard’s younger brother]” (personal communication, M. H. Fisher diary [FP]). Given this timeline, Rowland Hazard’s previously noted divorce from and remarriage to his wife, Helen, in 1929 and 1931, respectively, falls after his final visit to Jung, rather than prior to it. Future Work Historical Conflation of Jung’s Conceptions Perhaps the most important piece of Jung’s role in the history of AA, from a Jungian perspective, is correctly assessing the interaction of Jung’s theory with the history of AA. Rowland Hazard came into analysis at a particular point in Jung’s emerging theory. For example, many of Jung’s now well-known conceptions, such as the theory of the archetypes and his alchemical forays, to name but two, were as yet inchoate. However, in 1926, Jung was, theoretically, very interested in the recognition of psychic opposites and the balancing of these opposites, in particular using the tool of active imagination (See, for example, Jung, 1928, and Jung, 1989). In order to truly assess the historical context for Jung’s interaction with Rowland Hazard and his subsequent effect on the founding of AA, Jung’s conceptions need to be addressed as they emerged historically, rather than in a way that conflates his theory historically. In several of the accounts of his role as benefactor of AA, Jung’s works are used to examine his position on alcoholism and its treatment. The challenge called forth by such an exposition, however, and one which has not been adequately answered to date, is to reconstruct Jung’s theory as it emerged historically. For example, in his 1998 account, Kurtz bookends the tale of Rowland Hazard, Jung, and Alcoholics Anonymous with Hazard’s obituary from the New York Times and Jung’s letter to Bill Wilson in 1961. The latter was written some 35 years after the time at which Rowland Hazard was first analyzed by Jung, during which time Jung’s conceptions evolved significantly. Therefore, it is important to look at Jung’s theory in 1926, the time at which Rowland Hazard entered analysis for the first time, as distinct from Jung’s theory in 1961, shortly before he died. That is, Jung’s interactions, more than three decades apart, would have been grounded in significantly different iterations of his theory. Recalibrating to 1926 Now that the year of Rowland Hazard’s initial analysis has been clarified through primary source material, there is a fresh opportunity to draw out Jung’s historical effect on Alcoholics Anonymous. Given that the year is significantly earlier than once thought, any supposition that had previously been wrought from the alleged early 1930s analysis needs readjustment. Future work could approach the material by constructing an exposition of Jung’s theory as it emerged historically including the point at which Rowland Hazard stepped into the analytical hour and began an interface with Jung’s emerging theory. In addition, further development of the story of the three Hazard cousins—Rowland Hazard, Leonard Bacon, and Carol Sawyer Baumann—would be a meaningful addition to both the Jungian and the AA historical docket. Manuscript Collections Frequently Cited BP: Baumann Papers, Carol Fisher Sawyer, located in the home of Peter and Ann Sawyer Williams, Cleveland Heights, OH. Indexed by Amy Colwell Bluhm, 2002-2003 (Bluhm, 2003). CSD: Included in the Baumann Papers is the Carol Sawyer Diary. This diary documents Sawyer’s time in England from July 10, 1927 until October 15, 1927. FP: Fisher Papers, Sterling Memorial Library, Yale University, New Haven, CT. LBC: Leonard Bacon Collection, Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library, Yale University, New Haven, CT. HFP: Hazard Family Papers, Rhode Island Historical Society, Providence, RI. References Allen, R. L. (1993). Irving Fisher: A biography. Cambridge, MA: Blackwell. Anonymous (1998). The Akron genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous. Kihei, Maui, Hawaii: Paradise Research Publications. Bacon, L. (1939). Semi-centennial: Some of the life and part of the opinions of Leonard Bacon. New York: Harper. Bair, D. (2003). Jung: A biography. NY: Little, Brown and Company. Bluhm, A. C. (2005). Turning toward individuation: Carol Sawyer Baumann’s interpretation of Jung, 1927–1932. Unpublished doctoral dissertation, Saybrook Graduate School and Research Center, San Francisco, CA. Cheever, S. (2004). Bill Wilson—His life and the creation of Alcoholics Anonymous. NY: Simon & Schuster. Dick, B. (1999). New Light on Alcoholism: God, Sam Shoemaker, and A. A. Kihei, Maui, Hawaii: Paradise Research Publications. Dubiel, R. M. (2004). The road to fellowship: The role of the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club in the development of Alcoholics Anonymous. NY: IUniverse. Finlay, S. W. (2000). Influence of Carl Jung and William James on the origin of Alcoholics Anonymous. Review of General Psychology, 4, 3–12. Fisher, I. (1926). Prohibition at its worst. NY: Macmillan and Company. Hannah, B. (1976). Jung: His life and work. New York: G. P. Putnam and Sons. Hartigan, F. (2000). Bill W.: A biography of Alcoholics Anonymous cofounder Bill Wilson. NY: St. Martin’s Press. Jung, C. G. (1928). (H. G. and C. Baynes, Trans.), Two essays on analytical psychology. NY: Dodd, Mead. Jung, C. G. (1989). Analytical psychology: Notes of the seminar given in 1925. (W. McGuire, Ed.). Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press. (Original work published 1925) Kirsch, T. B. (2000). The Jungians: A comparative and historical perspective. London: Routledge. Kurtz, E. (1988). AA: The story. San Francisco: Harper & Row. O’Neil, M. (1998). Rowland Hazard. Retrieved June 11, 2004, from http://www.aabibliography.com/rowlandhazzard.htm Pittman, B. (1988). AA: The way it began. Seattle, WA: Glen Abbey Books. Raphael, M. J. (2000). Bill W. and Mr. Wilson: The legend and life of A. A.’s cofounder. Amherst, MA: University of Massachusetts Press. Sikorsky, I. I. (1990). A. A.’s godparents: Three early influences on Alcoholics Anonymous and its foundation, Carl Jung, Emmett Fox, Jack Alexander. Minneapolis, MN: CompCare Publishers. Von Drehle, David. (2004, May 3). One page at a time; Susan Cheever’s chilling glimpse of AA’s tormented “Saint.” The Washington Post, C01. White, W. L. (1998). Slaying the dragon: The history of addiction treatment and recovery in America. Bloomington, IL: Chestnut Health Systems. Wilson, B. (2000). Bill W.: My first 40 years. Center City, MN: Hazelden. (Originally recorded 1935) Received October 13, 2005 Revision received December 4, 2005 Accepted June 9, 2006 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7437. . . . . . . . . . . . Winfred Rhoades, The Self You Have to Live With From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/21/2011 4:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII An early review of "The Self You Have to Live With" - by Winfred Rhoades. Philadelphia: Lippincott, 1938. 182 pp. Price, $1.75. (Rhoades' book was one of the titles on the early Akron recommended reading list which was handed out to new AA members. Note some of the common factors among the things talked about in these books, such as a positive appreciation of modern psychology and Rhoades' definition of true religion and spirituality as "conscious association with the divine Spirit and Life," rather than a demand for uncritical acceptance of numbers of complicated doctrines and dogmas.) American Journal of Public Health: Books and Reports, Vol. 29 (April, 1939), pp. 397-398. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1529477/pdf/amjphnation00993-009 3b.p\ df [20] This is essentially an inspirational book, a modern version of those treatises on life, of long and honorable literary history, that have drawn on the common sense and wisdom of the ages, back to the inspired scriptural writers and the ancient Greek philosophers from whom we have inherited treasures of knowledge held valid to this day. To the precept "Know Thyself " the present author adds the injunction " Live With Thyself," positing under this concept a rule of life that draws liberally on the findings and teachings of modern psychology and psychiatry adapted to his personal philosophic predilections. Reflecting the lessons of his own life and a desire " to pass along to other suffering and struggling people some of the things I had learned in the hard and long school of personal sickness," his essay may be said to derive from a " variety of religious experience " that gave him motive power and insight making for healthy personal adjustment of a quality and degree he confidently considers attainable by others likeminded in their grasp and acceptance of certain underlying principles and attitudes. It is a combination of spiritual and mental hygiene that we are offered in this treatise on " how to live," which is based also on the author's psychological work in the Boston Dispensary unit of the New England Medical Center, where he has conducted classes in " thought control " and helped and advised individuals with adjustment problems. While tenuous in its psychological material, it has great value, in the opinion of this reviewer, in the attention it gives to volitional factors and in its appreciation of the role of " will " in human behavior, which modern psychology tends to neglect in its preoccupation with thought and emotion. Hence the relevance of religion, as well as psychology, in human motivation and conduct, as emphasized by this writer and as other psychological writers are coming vaguely to recognize. But the " return to religion" must be rooted in sterner stuff and in solider concepts of the nature and meaning of religion than some psychologists are offering us at this time, if the mechanists, determinists, and materialists of mental science are to be convincingly gainsaid. The present author, for example, defines religion as " intrinsically not a belief, not a doctrine . . . but conscious association with the divine Spirit and Life." This is a pale formula to oppose to the negative convictions of the psychoanalyst who regards religion as an " illusion." PAUL O. KOMORA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7438. . . . . . . . . . . . This Saturday, June 25, 2011: Grapevine Play in Santa Monica From: jaxena77 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/20/2011 5:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In Our Own Words, the hit Grapevine play of the 13th International Convention last summer, is performing one night only in Santa Monica this Saturday, June 25, 2011. Please help us pass it on to anyone you know in recovery in Southern California. We had an amazing show and a packed audience this weekend in Sonoma County. I think the Los Angeles event will be very special and very moving. There is a whole section in the play about the founding of AA in Los Angeles, and two of my favorite "characters" in the play, Sybil C and June G, are from LA. Saturday, June 25, 2011 Dinner @ 6:00 pm, Speaker Meeting @ 7:00 pm, Play @ 8:30 pm. Lincoln Middle School Auditorium, 1501 California Ave., Santa Monica $15 suggested donation - presale tickets available at http://icypaahost.org/page7.php. Youtube preview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfv5dVNoTV0 Facebook event page: http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=177665952285931 Thank you very much to Glenn C. and everyone at this AAHistoryLovers group for the indispensable help in researching the play, especially the lesser known stories of the pioneering members of the special composition groups in the fellowship. I hope to meet some of you in LA! Thank you, Jackie B San Francisco, California IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7439. . . . . . . . . . . . A second summer play about AA: Cincinnati, Aug. 19-21, 2011 From: hjfree2001 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2011 6:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In addition to the play "In Our Own Words" on the West Coast, the play "Bill W and Dr. Bob" about AA's founders, will be performed in Park Hills, Kentucky (5 miles south of Cincinnati) August 19-21, with a free performance(ticket needed) for those in our local rehabs August 18. This show was also performed in San Antonio, and sold out with an extended run at the Cleveland Playhouse last spring. See the moment all our recovery began! http://thegratefullifefoundation.org/BillW_and_DrBob_Play.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7440. . . . . . . . . . . . Photo of Ray Campbell From: Aalogsdon . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2011 1:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Looking for a photograph of Ray Campbell, the author of AN ARTIST'S CONCEPT story in the 1st Edition. Need for archive display. Thanks. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7441. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: King School cowbell From: ROGER WHEATLEY . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/18/2011 10:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was just at Akron Intergroup archives where the bell is on display with a similar Oxford Group bell. the bells, as our guide explained, were used to open the meeting and was a custom that AA borrowed from Oxford Group meetings. - - - - See message 7417, also messages 7420, 7426, and 7427 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7442. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Biographies of the authors of the Big Book stories From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/20/2011 6:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn It would appear that there is no book and your best suggestion is to read the stories from AAHL correct? In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst - - - - Chuck, The earliest written version of these stories that I have ever seen is the version contained in AAHistoryLovers Messages 63 through 137. But I wasn't involved in putting them together, so my knowledge (or lack thereof) of whether there was an earlier version, or whether anybody back at the beginning ever tried to write it up in a book, doesn't count for much.* When Nancy Olson died, we tried to find her books and papers to put them in a suitable archives. One person made a personal trip to her apartment in Virginia. It was totally bare. There was nothing there -- literally nothing at all. No one would admit to knowing what had happened to all of her books and papers. So the next question would be to ask the surviving members of the group which assembled those biographies if they have saved any early drafts, or notes indicating where particular information came from, or anything else of that sort. This would include people like Barefoot Bill Lash (barefootbill at optonline.net) and Jim Blair in Canada (jblair at videotron.ca) and any others who were involved back then. Al Welch was very close to Nancy, and may also have some useful information here about what the most accurate and authoritative copy of these biographies would be. See his excellent version of the biographies at http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm But anyway, as I said, I wasn't involved in researching or writing the biographies, so we need to hear from some of our group who actually know something about this. And we need to do this before everybody who was involved in this is dead and gone. Glenn _____________________________________ *Strictly speaking, these first appeared in the AAHistoryBuffs in 2001, see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/message/700 and following, but were transferred verbatim to the AAHistoryLovers when Nancy changed her email address without realizing that this would bar her from any further access to the Buffs, and the Lovers had to be started as a replacement group -- Fiona Dodd played a key role in getting our group through that tricky period, and has continued moderating the group in every case of need all the way down to the present day -- but I don't know whether she was involved in the original research which was done when those biographies were first written up. -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Parkhurst Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 10:53 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Biographies of the authors of the Big Book stories Is there an actual book, hardcopy or online, on the authors of the personal stories in the original first edition? I have seen the short biographies at: http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html but would like to see more of the information on these AA pioneers, including original sobriety dates (as best they are) and whether or not they stayed sober. Thank you for any help In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7443. . . . . . . . . . . . More Than Words / Big Book Seminar 1991 From: Joseph Adams . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2011 1:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a PDF of a handout from a "Big Book Seminar 1991" and would like to find the group or author(s) who put it together for a future issue of Sponsor Magazine. Does anyone know the source? My usual web searches have not provided anything reliable. Joe A, Editor Sponsor Magazine and Anonymous Review Podcast e-mail address: (bigbookjoe at yahoo.com) ============================================== The document is fourteen pages long, beginning as follows: ============================================== Big Book Seminar 1991 MORE THAN WORDS 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous: Are you sure you know what those words mean? Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery: here adv. in this place / at this or at that moment in time, action, thought the adj. the definite article used to denote a thing. step n. one of a series of stages in a process, activity, step by step gradually to keep step to stay in step/to take steps/to begin to do what is necessary in order to achieve a certain purpose we pron. oneself and others, as named by oneself. take v. pres. part. took past part, to put the hand on or in so as to give or receive guidance, take my hand while we cross the street, to guide (somebody) in this way, to expose oneself to the benefit of, to make use of. which pron. what one or ones of several things, etc. pointed out, denoted, described etc. suggested v.t. to put forward as a consideration / to propose something as a possibility. program n. a plan or sequence of things to be done / to work out a plan of the operations to be executed by. recovery v.t. to get back possession of / to regain the balance of oneself / to return to a normal condition ofprosperity / to regain one’s composure, balance etc. ============================================== And the last page ends as follows: ============================================== Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs. spiritual adj. of, relating to, or concerned with the soul or spirit / the intelligent or immaterial part of man as distinguished from the body/the moral nature of a man I a supernatural being, usually regarded as invisible but as having the power to become visible at will/a specified mental or emotional attitude characterizing words, actions, opinions, etc. awakening n. a realization of circumstances / an arousal of interest or activity. try v. to attempt to do / to test experimentally. message n. inspired revelation / ethical or spiritual teaching. practice v. repeated performance or systematic exercise for the purpose of learning or acquiring proficiency. principle n. a law of nature as formulated and accepted by the mind / the acceptance of moral law as a guide to behavior. affair n. daily concerns. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7444. . . . . . . . . . . . Trudging From: meggyplunk . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/24/2011 5:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Did the word "Trudging" have a different definition in the dictionary from 1938? I have heard it meant almost exactly opposite of what the definition is today. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7445. . . . . . . . . . . . Archive Effort for New Jersey From: mrpetesplace . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2011 6:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello everyone, I received this email of a person who wants to help with the Archive Effort in New Jersey. I kept out their personal information so as not want to be posted in this group. What I need is someone to contact me so I can forward it to the right person. I believe Lester was involved with one in NJ but don't know if there are more than one. If this sounds what you are looking for, then let me know. My number is 980-522-6138 or you can email me at peter then "@" then aastuff.com. Following email info: To whom it may concern, I am interested in donating to the Archive effort for New Jersey. I am interested in donating ..(edited)..for the software necessary to purchase Proficio Elements. Can I donate ..(edited).. directly to the Archives? Please call me at ..(edited) or responding by the e-mail address above. Then they have their name and info. Thank you in advance... Peter IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7446. . . . . . . . . . . . the businessman who quit for a time From: rul6t2 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/18/2011 10:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a question about the character described on pg. 32 of the BB in More About Alcoholism. This is the businessman who stopped drinking for twenty-five years, retired, started drinking again, and drank himself to death within four years. I remember reading somewhere that this is a conflation of a story that was being told around the Oxford groups at the time of the BB's writing, and another entirely different story that is contained in Peabody's "Common Sense of Drinking." Neither of those stories really matches the one Bill wrote, I recall learning. He was taking a fair bit of artistic license to make a point, it seems. Unfortunately I failed to bookmark the source for all this, and now I can't seem to find it again, no matter what search parameters I try. Can anyone help me out here? This is a darned peculiar story, even when you take away the possibility that it isn't exactly true. It's brought up to prove the point that some alcoholics can stop on willpower, if they stop soon enough. The further point is made that these people, and all real alcoholics, will get worse if they pick up the bottle again. I have to wonder how important it was to make that first point anyway--that you may be able to stop on willpower if you stop soon enough. Who exactly was that supposed to help? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7447. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the businessman who quit for a time From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2011 4:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Page 32 of the Big Book: "A man of thirty" was a story based loosely on an anecdote given in Richard Peabody, "The Common Sense of Drinking," page 123. Peabody briefly mentions an unknown man who gave up drinking until he had made his fortune five years later. Resuming "moderate" drinking, he was soon back in his alcoholic difficulties, losing his money in two or three years and dying of alcoholism a few years after that. AA has never claimed that going to AA was the only way to get sober. In the period before an AA group was started in Boston, when alcoholics from Boston wrote the New York AA office, they would send them to the Jacoby Club and Emmanuel Movement, which had as high a success rate as AA. [See Richard M. Dubiel, The Road to Fellowship: The Role of the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club in the Development of Alcoholics Anonymous.] For centuries, some alcoholics had gotten sober by going to church (and some alcoholics still get sober that way today, about 1% or so of the alcoholics who get long term sobriety, by my estimate). The Oxford Group and the Salvation Army provide good examples of people getting sober by coming to Jesus. John Wesley and his Methodists had a good success rate in getting alcoholics sober in the urban slums and coal mining camps of eighteenth century England, and were also successful in Ireland and the North American colonies during that century (but not Scotland). The Salvation Army, which was founded by a Methodist minister, was an offspring of the Methodist movement. Carl Jung had seen a Methodist evangelist getting some alcoholics sober where he lived in Europe, which was probably where he first learned that this was possible. From 1935 to 1948, a Methodist publication called The Upper Room was the commonest meditational book used in early AA -- Dr. Bob and Anne Smith read and discussed it every morning in their home, with the AA people who had dropped by for morning coffee before work. Likewise, a small percentage of alcoholics can get sober simply by using their will power. The early AA people were well aware of this, and there's ample modern data from the psychologists documenting this. Modern psychologists sometimes claim that the success rate that way can sometimes be as high as two or three percent, but by my own reckoning, it's not quite that high, more like one percent or so at most. But in the modern United States, 98% of the alcoholics whom I know who gained long term sobriety, did so by going to AA meetings and following the twelve steps. If you like to go to horse racing tracks, and betting in every race on the one horse who has only won one race out of every hundred it has run (as opposed to the horse which has won 98% of the races it has entered) then by all means, go spend years trying to get sober on your own! And in addition, really working the twelve steps will give you a quality of serenity and peace of mind which is as high or higher than any other spiritual discipline which I am aware of, from this century or any other period of history. And it works for a greater percentage of people and far more quickly, than any other spiritual discipline I am aware of. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7448. . . . . . . . . . . . Question about the Third Step and Seventh Step Prayers From: Lisa B . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/24/2011 12:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've heard but never really questioned the story that the Seventh Step prayer is the completion of the Third Step prayer -- and that the evidence is based on the fact that Bill W. put an Amen after the Seventh Step prayer but not after the Third Step prayer. What's the truth about this? Thank you! Lisa B. Dallas, Texas IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7449. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Trudging From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2011 7:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From James Bliss, Bill , Bill Lash, Charles Knapp, Chuck Parkhurst, Sherry Hartsell, Baileygc, Archives Histories, Lynn Sawyer, John Jones, plus a translation into Yiddish by GC the moderator - - - - From: James Bliss (james.bliss at comcast.net) From *The Winston Simplified Dictionary*, copyright 1928 trudge v.i [p.t and p.p. trudged, p.pr. trudging], to travel on foot, esp. with labor or fatigue; as, he trudged along through the woods. Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2011: VERB (used without object) 1.to walk, especially laboriously or wearily: to trudge up a long flight of steps. VERB (used with object) 2.to walk laboriously or wearily along or over: He trudged the deserted road for hours. NOUN 3.a laborious or tiring walk; tramp. Word Origin & History: trudge "to walk laboriously," 1547, of unknown origin. The noun meaning "an act of trudging" is attested from 1835. - - - - From: Bill (lambchopp at gmail.com) I have The Modern Webster dictionary, copyright 1934: Trudge -- to travel on foot, especially with labor or fatigue - - - - From: Bill Lash (barefootbill at optonline.net) The 1938 dictionary I have defines "trudge" as: To travel on foot; to walk with purpose and effort. Just Love, Barefoot Bill - - - - From: Charles Knapp (cpknapp at yahoo.com) 22 years ago when I came in, I would share with my sponsor what I read in the Big Book, only to be told "That is not what that means." My first sponsor made me look up words in the dictionary because I had no idea what they meant or that most words had more than one meaning. I had this big stack of 3 X 5 cards with words and their definitions. I do not know the edition or publisher of dictionary I used but I remember how shocked I was when I looked up the word trudge. Images of a hard nearly impossible, uphill climb was what formed in my head. The dictionary I used had "walk with purpose" as a second or third definition. Trudging became a positive action, to me, instead of a negative one. I thank my sponsor of making me do this because the Big Book became a totally different book the more I read it. Hope this helps Charles from Wisconsin - - - - From: "Chuck Parkhurst" (ineedpage63 at cox.net) My Funk and Wagnall's dictionary, copyright 1939, defines trudge as: "walk laboriously; plod" (where plod is defined in this dictionary as "walk over heavily; proceed with toil"). In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst - - - - From: "Sherry C. Hartsell" (hartsell at etex.net) You asked: "Did the word 'Trudging' have a different definition in the dictionary from 1938? I have heard it meant almost exactly opposite of what the definition is today." Not that a search has so far revealed. sherry - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) Dictionary does not indicate any change. - - - - From: Archives Historie (firsthings1st at yahoo.com) Not according to Websters Dictionary of 1939. Same meaning as today. - - - - From: Lynn Sawyer (sawyer7952 at yahoo.com) Hello, all, 'Trudging' at www.dictionary.com is: verb (used without object) <1. to walk, especially laboriously or wearily: to trudge up a long flight of steps.> with these words listed as synonyms: stumble, traipse, march, tramp, tread, step, trek Don't know if this'd be different in a 1938 dictionary but thought this might be helpful. Lynn S. grateful alcoholic Sacramento, California - - - - From: "John Jones" (john.jones14 at ntlworld.com) "Did the word 'Trudging' have a different definition in the dictionary from 1938? I have heard it meant almost exactly opposite of what the definition is today." Yes the definition was "slow deliberate steps. Slow march." John - - - - From GC the moderator: A good Jewish friend of mine in the AA program argues that one usage of the Yiddish word schlep could be used to translate the English word trudge quite accurately. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/schlep 1. to carry; lug: to schlep an umbrella on a sunny day. 2. to move slowly, awkwardly, or tediously: We schlepped from store to store all day. World English Dictionary 1. to drag or lug (oneself or an object) with difficulty 2. a stupid or clumsy person 3. an arduous journey or procedure Slang Dictionary 1. to drag or carry someone or something. : Am I supposed to schlep this whole thing all the way back to the store? 2. a journey; a distance to travel or carry something. : It takes about twenty minutes to make the schlep from here to there. 3. a stupid person; a bothersome person. (Literally, a drag.) : Ask that shlep to wait in the hall until I am free. I'll sneak out the back way. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7450. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Trudging From: Frank in LA . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/28/2011 3:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Frank in LA and Charlie C. - - - - I've often heard it explained that "trudge" can mean "to walk with determination." And it can, in its plain denotation. But even in 1938 the word had overwhelmingly negative connotations. Consider the first stanza of the famous WWI poem Dulce et Decorum est by Wilfred Owen, written around 1917: Bent double, like old beggars under sacks, Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge, Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs And towards our distant rest began to trudge. Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind; Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots Of disappointed shells that dropped behind. In painting this gloomy picture, the poet obviously chose his words and their flavor with care. "Trudge," like so many other words in this stanza, is being employed for its darkness and negativity. The simplest explanation for the presence of "trudge" on pg 164 of the Big Book is that Bill Wilson, at best, didn't consider its connotation particularly well. But that it was just a poor word choice is something many are reluctant to consider, perhaps because it seems to undermine the authority of the writing. - - - - From: Charlie C (route20guy at yahoo.com) The modern Oxford English Dictionary has to trudge as to "...walk laboriously, wearily, but steadily and persistantly..." Also simply to "... go away, depart ..." The examples given usage of the word over time do not show it to have changed much in definition or usage. I've always thought it a little bit of an odd choice, given it does have this long standing connotation of walking in a "laborious" fashion etc., but then I wonder if the second part, the "steadily and persistently," is the key part. One is to hold fast when on the road of happy destiny ... There may be some slang usage from the '30s I am unaware of, but as dictionary definitions go this is pretty definitive. I don't know if you really need a 1930s dictionary, as any bigger, unabridged dictionary will give examples of the history of a word's use and show where it has changed. Charlie Cowling Clarkson, NY IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7451. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Reading in early AA From: Paul . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2011 12:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ernie, when I'd read your post I took note of: "advisability/utility ... OR possible dangers of such reading?" which I think is well posed, but I took note of a segment of your reference to Glenn's 2004 post: "There is no way that a historian who is not deeply familiar with the principles of the Enlightenment can understand A.A. at all." When I go to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment, I find that there may be a *radical enlightenment* as opposed (or in addition) to a *moderate enlightenment,* in the view of historian Jonathan Israel. All of which begs the question: "*Which* AA?" In other words, "*Which* Enlightenment?" Of course, the answer(s) might be as obvious as "formative AA" and "all of the Enlightenment." Kurtz posits (variably, in his Appendix B to *N-G*): "Akron-styled AA," "Akron-Cleveland AA," and/or "fundamentalist AA," (VS?) New York AA" and possibly another variant. Prof Travis introduces "Traditionalist AA," (VS?) "GSO AA," - and perhaps more notably her section called "The Triumph of the Therapeutic" - which makes one wonder about a (possible) "therapeutic AA." It's *fair* to ask when/if we're asking about "early, middle, or late" AA, but those terms don't appear (on face value) to be adequately defined. Of course, "late AA" might be relegated to purely ethnographic study, or broader cultural concerns, but I'm not the only person asking about the in/f/lux/luence and diffusion of AA vernacular, as recent posts could seem to indicate. EXAMPLE: "Newcomer is the most important person in the room," might fall under the "therapeutic" rubric. Both Roizen's ("Mysterious Marty Mann" &tc. here & elsewhere) and the recent entry (Kurtz 2006) attest to "operational" vernacular (the disease concept); yet vernacular it is, nonetheless. Point being, some AA oldtimers will refer to the DIS-EASE (clearly enunciating the syllables) and thereby articulate the difference, i.e., indicating that they do indeed appreciate the difference between a concept, definition, and a connotative value, whether or no someone else "in the room" perceives that there is one. It may be for their own benefit. Therefore the question I'd asked earlier - of the title of Kurtz's book - was not at all plaintive, and completely value neutral, having nothing whatsoever to do with its derivation: Mr. Kurtz, were you aware (in 1979 or at the appendix in 1992) of the common AA parlance, "There is a God, and you're not Him?" And if so, why did you choose to exclude it? Possibly for practical reasons: the same way Trysh Travis has chosen print culture to the exclusion of other sources? In other words, I was asking a philosophical question, like, "What is the matrix, or the set of multipliers, or the dimension of that set, or domain, that helps determine the present/past/future trajectory of the (various) wings of AA?" Ernie answered that question, in the last paragraph of his "response" to me (and others), very much in the abstract, which was kindhearted, because he probably knew I wouldn't fully comprehend it, which I didn't, but thereby gave me another nut to crack, like the small handful of nuts some people (like me) sometimes carry around in their pockets, sometimes for very long periods, until the opportunity for cracking presents. There is a very unique state of affairs here: suppose only *one* comprehensive Civil War textbook had been written (from a scholarly perspective). And suppose that the *one* author were open for commentary? In another reference below, another one that Ernie has made to Glenn's 2004 series, we read that New Age is intrinsically hostile to Christianity, at least as compared to New Thought, which could be the case. On the other hand, New Age is more sympathetic to psychology, or at least "fourth force," which isn't to say neo-Freudian. Obviously, the(se) question(s) might be better posed: "How many Traditionalist AA's would be...?" and "How many GSO AA's would be thus disposed?" &tc. Best, Paul PS: I also found the following comments from Glenn (again, referenced by Ernie below) to be extremely informative, and believe they may be found in amplified, modified, or similar form in Trysh Travis' *Loh*: "By 1939 the A.A. leaders were increasingly recommending that newcomers only read a small selection of biblical passages deliberately chosen because they did not speak about the divinity of Christ or contain any notion that people had to pray to Jesus or rely upon his death and resurrection to save them. In the Sermon on the Mount, prayer is to God the Father, and in the Letter of James, it is to God the Father of Lights. In chapter 13 of First Corinthians (unlike the chapters that come before it and after it), the higher power is spoken of only as the one who already knows us fully, whom we shall at last see face to face ..." "When Richmond Walker published his Twenty-Four Hours a Day in 1948, it swept the country rapidly, and put an end to A.A. use of the classical Protestant liberal meditational book called The Upper Room. *This means that by that point, the center of gravity in American A.A. had clearly moved from the classical Protestant liberal position to something much more radical, that is a desire among many members for a kind of spirituality which made little or no mention of Christianity at all.* Individual members were free to be Fundamentalists or conservative Baltimore Catechism Roman Catholics or anything else they wanted in their private prayers, but in most parts of the United States, it was made clear that Christian references were to be kept out of A.A. meetings, with very few exceptions to that rule." [*Italics* added.] I think that this means that circa 1948 should mark the beginning of a defined period (possible "middle" period) of AA. Prof Travis has not been as clear about this, I believe, as Glenn. Nor was Kurtz in *N-G,* if memory serves. But I still need to ask, Glenn, in the sentence above that reads "By 1939 the A.A. leaders..." which does that mean? Surely that excludes Cleveland, but does it include Akron? Could you please be more specific? Thanks Kindly. ______________________________ RESPONSE TO THIS LAST QUESTION FROM GLENN C: when I said "By 1939 the A.A. leaders were increasingly recommending that newcomers only read a small selection of biblical passages deliberately chosen because they did not speak about the divinity of Christ or contain any notion that people had to pray to Jesus or rely upon his death and resurrection to save them," I was definitely including Akron AA, see the old Akron Manual called "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous," which was handed out to newcomers when they were checked into the hospital for detoxing. The Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7, the letter of James, 1 Corinthians 13, and Psalms 23 and 91 were the specific parts of the Bible which they were told to read in the original version of the pamphlet. See http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html (about the middle of the page). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7452. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the businessman who quit for a time From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2011 6:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A couple of things come to mind with our friend of thirty. He is doing a great deal of "spree" drinking and is drinking in the morning to quiet his nerves. He "loses control" every time he drinks. It would seem our friend has clearly crossed the line and is the "gamma type" of alcoholic as Jellinek described. He suddenly finds a new object for his devotion (money and success) makes a decision (surrender) and he plugs the jug. He is now a workaholic instead of an alcoholic with money as his higher power. As Bill said he was an "exceptional" man.....i.e more than just one rocking dude he was the rare bird.....the exception.....the one in a hundred! Most alcoholics probably couldn't pull this one off. Carl Jung hit the nail on the head when he said the thing that cures a "neurosis" must be as powerful or an even more powerful neurosis. If one can "religiously" pursue a new "object" of affection or devotion and all their thoughts and motives crystallize around it (c.f. William James and Religiomania) you can replace one obsession for another. But of course the fundamental "spriritual" and perhaps the physiological thirst will continue to progress and look out if our man so much as takes one drink because the train wreck will be inevitable if he indeed was a true alcoholic. There are many ways to become abstinent and this example is but one, fewer ways to become sober and serene outside of "A Solution" such as a spiritual path or fellowship, and probably none to go back to moderate drinking (with long term success) if you were in fact a "real alcoholic" The story of course is a powerful example of what happens if we drink after a long period of abstinence, one which I can testify to myself. Thank God I was able to stop again before the reaper called! God Bless John B IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7453. . . . . . . . . . . . 1947 red vinyl recordings of Bill W From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/27/2011 4:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Purchased on ebay. Wonder if anyone has any historical information about these records. This auction is for a very rare set of records. These records contain a speech by Bill W. , founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. It is thought that these records represent the first recording of a Bill W. speech. Bill is reported to have been very reluctant to allow any recording of his talks. However, a persuasive gentleman in the recording business finally persuaded Bill to make a record after this man heard Bill give a series of talks in Los Angeles in April of 1947. Bill made an early record that was 16 inches wide, but because many people had no equipment to handle this format, he authorized the talks to be transcribed to two 12-inch vinyl records. The label Rockhill was selected because this small outfit agreed to make small lots of pressings as demanded and sell and distribute the records for the price of $3.30 including shipping. Bill was determined to make these talks as widely available, affordable and convenient to listen to as possible. however, it was never in mass release, and few copies survive. I do not have any sleeves nor jackets. The records themselves are in pretty rough shape. I took several photos at various angles to give an idea of their condition. I see no cracks no warping and no deep scratches. I have no turntable, so I have no idea of their sound quality. John Wikelius (justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7454. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Reading in early AA From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/29/2011 8:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Paul, Thanks for your challenging note, though I doubt my reply will be very satisfying. Yes, there are several "Enlightenment"s and several A.A.s. I recently came across another interesting disjunction of the latter. I cannot post it to the AAHL list because of copyright restrictions, but if you will send me your postal address, I will get a copy off to you as "interested student," okay? The distinctions I made in *Not-God* were intended to be descriptive, not substantive. I assumed that by the time a reader got through the history in the main section of the book, those short-hand terms in Apx B would suggest already-established distinctions -- descriptive distinctions, not substantive ones. I do regret using the term "fundamentalist," which since has accrued intolerable baggage. Trysh Travis's distinction is interesting, though I fear it reflects one particular view within AA. I do, however, stand with the strong distinction of "Akron and Akron-derived AA" from "New York and NY-derived AA," still very evident at the 1955 ACOA convention. And it perdures: our esteemed moderator comes intellectually from Akron, perhaps because of his excellent training in theology. I have not visited GSO in over a decade -- health reasons -- but I vividly recall staff comments after groups of Akron-oriented visitors toured. In my view, there has long been a fissure, but never a fracture, in AA, and I think that reality is healthy for all concerned. One reason there will never be a "Mr. or Ms. AA" is that a significant portion of the fellowship's members will disagree with that individual's "take" on spirituality. If I were to periodize AA, I would divide it like Gaul -- into three parts. 1935-1955 (ACOA convention), 1955-1971 (Bill W's death), and post-1971. Someone with a greater knowledge of AA's more recent history, and of such matters as the various Office Managers, will have to make the distinctions within that final period, if any. This is, I hope, a good opportunity to beg for the authoritative history of AA that will replace *Not-God*: it is positively embarrassing to have that one telling of the story be "authoritative" for so long. 1). So much has been discovered since; 2). N-G is an intellectual history -- a history of the ideas in and about AA: we need more pulling together of the economic history, the social and political history, etc.; and 3). There are imperfections in my initial research; e.g. it is now clear that Roland Hazard visited Dr. Jung in 1926, not 1931. A Colorado historian has also delved deeply into how Bill's New Hampshire years. The amount of material may be unmanageable for one person, one book, but I hope and pray that someone will undertake to bite off a good-sized chunk. It will be a lot of work, but I am sure I can promise that such a book will have many more initial sales than N-G did over its first decades. "There is a God and you're not Him"? Paul, N-G began as a Harvard doctoral dissertation: I had to justify with hard evidence just about every fact I adduced. Oral comments, relatively rarely heard, did not pass muster. I justified the title on the basis of "First of all, we had to quit playing God." Also, I found that some AA members whom I interviewed objected to "There is a God, and you're not Him!" because they wanted to keep the AA door open for non-believers and unbelievers. I don't know how young you are, but if of a certain age, you may recall that Hazelden back then put out a pamphlet titled something like "AA for the Atheist." Surprisingly (to me), that thought did seem strongest in Minnesota, though I guess Swedes are noted for tolerance. What kind of nuts do you carry around? ernie On Jun 26, 2011, at 12:48 AM, Paul wrote: > Ernie, when I'd read your post I took note of: "advisability/utility ... OR possible dangers of such reading?" which I think is well posed, but I took note of a segment of your reference to Glenn's 2004 post: "There is no way that a historian who is not deeply familiar with the principles of the Enlightenment can understand A.A. at all." > > When I go to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment, I find that there may be a *radical enlightenment* as opposed (or in addition) to a *moderate enlightenment,* in the view of historian Jonathan Israel. > > All of which begs the question: "*Which* AA?" In other words, "*Which* Enlightenment?" Of course, the answer(s) might be as obvious as "formative AA" and "all of the Enlightenment." > > Kurtz posits (variably, in his Appendix B to *N-G*): "Akron-styled AA," "Akron-Cleveland AA," and/or "fundamentalist AA," (VS?) New York AA" and possibly another variant. Prof Travis introduces "Traditionalist AA," (VS?) "GSO AA," - and perhaps more notably her section called "The Triumph of the Therapeutic" - which makes one wonder about a (possible) "therapeutic AA." > > It's *fair* to ask when/if we're asking about "early, middle, or late" AA, but those terms don't appear (on face value) to be adequately defined. Of course, "late AA" might be relegated to purely ethnographic study, or broader cultural concerns, but I'm not the only person asking about the in/f/lux/luence and diffusion of AA vernacular, as recent posts could seem to indicate. > > EXAMPLE: "Newcomer is the most important person in the room," might fall under the "therapeutic" rubric. Both Roizen's ("Mysterious Marty Mann" &tc. here & elsewhere) and the recent entry (Kurtz 2006) attest to "operational" vernacular (the disease concept); yet vernacular it is, nonetheless. Point being, some AA oldtimers will refer to the DIS-EASE (clearly enunciating the syllables) and thereby articulate the difference, i.e., indicating that they do indeed appreciate the difference between a concept, definition, and a connotative value, whether or no someone else "in the room" perceives that there is one. It may be for their own benefit. > > Therefore the question I'd asked earlier - of the title of Kurtz's book - was not at all plaintive, and completely value neutral, having nothing whatsoever to do with its derivation: Mr. Kurtz, were you aware (in 1979 or at the appendix in 1992) of the common AA parlance, "There is a God, and you're not Him?" And if so, why did you choose to exclude it? Possibly for practical reasons: the same way Trysh Travis has chosen print culture to the exclusion of other sources? In other words, I was asking a philosophical question, like, "What is the matrix, or the set of multipliers, or the dimension of that set, or domain, that helps determine the present/past/future trajectory of the (various) wings of AA?" Ernie answered that question, in the last paragraph of his "response" to me (and others), very much in the abstract, which was kindhearted, because he probably knew I wouldn't fully comprehend it, which I didn't, but thereby gave me another nut to crack, like the small handful of nuts some people (like me) sometimes carry around in their pockets, sometimes for very long periods, until the opportunity for cracking presents. > > There is a very unique state of affairs here: suppose only *one* comprehensive Civil War textbook had been written (from a scholarly perspective). And suppose that the *one* author were open for commentary? > > In another reference below, another one that Ernie has made to Glenn's 2004 series, we read that New Age is intrinsically hostile to Christianity, at least as compared to New Thought, which could be the case. On the other hand, New Age is more sympathetic to psychology, or at least "fourth force," which isn't to say neo-Freudian. > > Obviously, the(se) question(s) might be better posed: "How many Traditionalist AA's would be...?" and "How many GSO AA's would be thus disposed?" &tc. > > Best, > Paul > > PS: I also found the following comments from Glenn (again, referenced by Ernie below) to be extremely informative, and believe they may be found in amplified, modified, or similar form in Trysh Travis' *Loh*: > > "By 1939 the A.A. leaders were increasingly recommending that newcomers only read a small selection of biblical passages deliberately chosen because they did not speak about the divinity of Christ or contain any notion that people had to pray to Jesus or rely upon his death and resurrection to save them. In the Sermon on the Mount, prayer is to God the Father, and in the Letter of James, it is to God the Father of Lights. In chapter 13 of First Corinthians (unlike the chapters that come before it and after it), the higher power is spoken of only as the one who already knows us fully, whom we shall at last see face to face ..." > > "When Richmond Walker published his Twenty-Four Hours a Day in 1948, it swept the country rapidly, and put an end to A.A. use of the classical Protestant liberal meditational book called The Upper Room. *This means that by that point, the center of gravity in American A.A. had clearly moved from the classical Protestant liberal position to something much more radical, that is a desire among many members for a kind of spirituality which made little or no mention of Christianity at all.* Individual members were free to be Fundamentalists or conservative Baltimore Catechism Roman Catholics or anything else they wanted in their private prayers, but in most parts of the United States, it was made clear that Christian references were to be kept out of A.A. meetings, with very few exceptions to that rule." > > [*Italics* added.] > > I think that this means that circa 1948 should mark the beginning of a defined period (possible "middle" period) of AA. Prof Travis has not been as clear about this, I believe, as Glenn. Nor was Kurtz in *N-G,* if memory serves. But I still need to ask, Glenn, in the sentence above that reads "By 1939 the A.A. leaders..." which does that mean? Surely that excludes Cleveland, but does it include Akron? Could you please be more specific? > > Thanks Kindly. > ______________________________ > > > RESPONSE TO THIS LAST QUESTION FROM GLENN C: > > when I said "By 1939 the A.A. leaders were increasingly recommending that newcomers only read a small selection of biblical passages deliberately chosen because they did not speak about the divinity of Christ or contain any notion that people had to pray to Jesus or rely upon his death and resurrection to save them," > > I was definitely including Akron AA, see the old Akron Manual called "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous," which was handed out to newcomers when they were checked into the hospital for detoxing. The Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7, the letter of James, 1 Corinthians 13, and Psalms 23 and 91 were the specific parts of the Bible which they were told to read in the original version of the pamphlet. See http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html (about the middle of the page). > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7455. . . . . . . . . . . . 2011 National AA Archives Workshop From: gerrynmt . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/30/2011 9:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings from Area 40 (Montana) This is a short reminder about the upcoming 15th National AA Archives Workshop that will be held in Helena, Montana on September 22nd – 25th. If you have ever been involved in organizing any type of AA event, we're sure you can appreciate the need and benefit of early registrations. We are no different. We have been busy making preparations for everyone's arrival, and feel that we have put together a very educational and entertaining program for this year's event. If you haven't registered already, please feel free to visit the workshop website at aanationalarchivesworkshop.com where you can download a registration flyer, and also check out the program for the event. There's also a lot of other information on the workshop there. Keep checking back, even after you've registered, as we will be adding more as we go along. In Grateful Service, Gerry R. Area 40 Archivist XV-NAAAW Chair IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7456. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Archive Effort for New Jersey From: mrpetesplace . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2011 5:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From mrpetesplace, Lou M., john wikelius, and David Brown - - - - From: "mrpetesplace" (peter at aastuff.com) Hey everyone, Lester was involved and he is the Archivist now :) I just got off the phone with him and sent him the information. Peteraastuff.com) - - - - From: Lou M (unity@aaonline.org) Here are some links with History and Archives Info from the Northern New Jersey web site: http://nnjaa.org/contacts.htm http://nnjaa.org/area44/getting-involved.htm#A44-H&A2 The Southern NJ website may have some additional info, but i am not really familiar with the site: http://snjaa.org Lou M - - - - From: john wikelius (justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com) What can i do to help? - - - - From: David Brown (copperas44 at yahoo.com) Are we going to be self supporting here? David ===================================== Original message #7445 from "mrpetesplace" (peter at aastuff.com) Hello everyone, I received this email of a person who wants to help with the Archive Effort in New Jersey. I kept out their personal information so as not want to be posted in this group. What I need is someone to contact me so I can forward it to the right person. I believe Lester was involved with one in NJ but don't know if there are more than one. If this sounds what you are looking for, then let me know. My number is 980-522-6138 or you can email me at peter then "@" then aastuff.com. Following email info: To whom it may concern, I am interested in donating to the Archive effort for New Jersey. I am interested in donating ..(edited)..for the software necessary to purchase Proficio Elements. Can I donate ..(edited).. directly to the Archives? Please call me at ..(edited) or responding by the e-mail address above. Then they have their name and info. Thank you in advance... Peter ===================================== IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7457. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 2011 National AA Archives Workshop From: Shakey Mike . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2011 2:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Any registration by e mail? Shakey Mike Gwirtz Sent from my iPhone On Jun 30, 2011, at 9:53 AM, "gerrynmt" wrote: > Greetings from Area 40 (Montana) > > This is a short reminder about the upcoming 15th National AA Archives Workshop that will be held in Helena, Montana on September 22nd â“ 25th. If you have ever been involved in organizing any type of AA event, we're sure you can appreciate the need and benefit of early registrations. We are no different. We have been busy making preparations for everyone's arrival, and feel that we have put together a very educational and entertaining program for this year's event. > > If you haven't registered already, please feel free to visit the workshop website at aanationalarchivesworkshop.com where you can download a registration flyer, and also check out the program for the event. There's also a lot of other information on the workshop there. Keep checking back, even after you've registered, as we will be adding more as we go along. > > In Grateful Service, > Gerry R. > Area 40 Archivist > XV-NAAAW Chair IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7458. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1947 red vinyl recordings of Bill W From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/29/2011 6:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Alcoholic Foundation sold these records from 1947 to 1951. I am not sure exactly how many copies were made and the GSO Archives could not determine this amount either. The following is a copy of an article I wrote for the May 2007 Area 09 Newsletter while I was the Area Archivist: ========================================= A Southern California Connection Little over a year ago, I purchased an audio CD of what was being titled "Bill W.'s 1st Recorded Talk." It said the talk was made in 1947, but gave no other information. When I listen to it heard a quote that I recognized. The quote was: "Perhaps this is not the place to talk at length of my own recovery, of our A.A. program in detail, or of our astounding growth. This room is filled with fellow alcoholics who know and practice the A.A. way of life as well as I. The accomplishments of Alcoholics Anonymous are headlined in the press of the world. So I shall be content if I can remind myself, and any who would hear that Alcoholics Anonymous is not, after all, a personal success story. It is instead, the story of our colossal human failures now converted into the happiest kind of usefulness by that divine alchemy -- the living grace of God." I remember this from the 2005 International Convention in Toronto because I saw this quote on one of the GSO Archives displays. Also from that CD I recognized the talk Bill was giving was copied from a phonograph record. In October 2006 while in New York doing some research at the GSO Archives I was able to piece together some history of this recording and found that it has a Southern California connection other than just its location. On Wednesday April 9, 1947, Bill came to Los Angeles and gave a talk at a big open meeting. After the meeting a member from Los Angeles, who was in the recording business, suggested to Bill he should record his talks. This member offered to provide Bill and AA his recording services, for a small fee, of course. That weekend, Bill shortened his talk and he made a wire recording and this recording was pressed into a 16 inch record. Bill took the recording back to New York and found a record company there that would press records as needed. The member in Los Angeles wanted to press a couple hundred records at one time, but Bill thought this would put an un-necessary financial burden of the New York Office. Beside Bill did not think they would sale that many records. Bill found a company in New York, without ties to AA, called Rockhill Radio that was willing to press one record at a time or as many at one time as need. This way the New York office would not have to fork out a lot of money all at one time or keep track of any inventory. Bill even negotiated a deal where the New York office would take all the orders and handle the money from sales and this reduced the selling price of the records even more. We do not know the member's name from Los Angeles or the company we worked for. However, in the file in New York where I found this information was a yellowed business card from Specialty Records, 2719 W 7th Street Los Angeles with the name "Art" handwritten on the back. After some searching I found Art Rupe started Specialty Records in 1946, but it is not clear if Art was the member that made the suggestion or just someone the member put Bill in touch with. In a letter to the group secretaries from the New York office dated May 6, 1947 it offers these records for sale for $3.30 including shipping. Not everyone had a phonograph that could play 16 inch records so the talk was made on two12 inch records, having a playing time of 15 minutes and were only recorded on one side. (15 minutes is a very short talk for Bill) In this letter it stated that Bill was very reluctant on make any kind of records, but finally gave in. Order informationfor the records appeared in the June 1947 Grapevine and the following message was printed in the October 1951 Grapevine:"An earlier recording known simply as "A Talk by Bill' has become a "collector's item." It is no longer possible to make copies from the master record and the existing supply has been exhausted." By: Charles K. Area 9 Archivist ========================================= Hope this helps Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7459. . . . . . . . . . . . Can groups pay for signers for the hearing impaired? From: Aalogsdon . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/5/2011 1:17:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I attend a meeting that has a signer for the hearing impaired. Lately the 7th tradition has been coming up, with insufficient funds to pay the signer. What is the practice in other areas that have this problem? - - - - FROM THE MODERATOR: And we need to keep this historically based, as much as we can. There are already dozens of AA chat groups and discussion groups on the internet, but only one AAHistoryLovers group, and folks only have enough time to read a certain number of messages -- then they quit and don't read any more. So did this issue ever come up in early AA history? Or did something similar to this problem come up in previous AA history, which raised a similar kind of issue? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7460. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Question about the Third Step and Seventh Step Prayers From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/30/2011 3:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 12:44 6/24/2011, Lisa B wrote: >I've heard but never really questioned the story that the Seventh >Step prayer is the completion of the Third Step prayer -- and that >the evidence is based on the fact that Bill W. put an Amen after the >Seventh Step prayer but not after the Third Step prayer. > >What's the truth about this? > The truth is that is the way the book was written. Why do you think it is significant? They were trying to tell the world what they did and didn't scrutinize every word to insure it was the best possible word to use in that exact place. Self-appointed Big Book scholars like to go on and on about things like this as, in their minds at least, it makes them appear important and knowledgeable. A lot of them can't find their tush with both hands outside our rooms. What's important is what is said, now how it's said. IMHO, since they used thees and thous in the Third Step Prayer and didn't in the Seventh, it is obvious to me that there is no intentional connection, but that is my two cents. That's my story and I am sticking to it. Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7461. . . . . . . . . . . . Rowland Hazard''s La Luz Property From: Ted . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/8/2011 1:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have just learned that the property which Rowland Hazard owned and used for his Pottery manufacturing adventure in La Luz, New Mexico has been donated by the family that has owned it. It is to be donated to the Tularosa Basin Historical Society and plans are being formulated to stabilize the structures and prepare them for preservation. There is some 200 acres involved. The property is located just east of La Luz, New Mexico about 2 miles into the Canyon known as Fresnel and La Luz Canyons. History buffs of AA and Rowland Hazard may be interested in the future development of this venture. Ted IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7462. . . . . . . . . . . . Where is Hank Parkhurst buried? From: B . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/8/2011 9:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am trying to find out if Hank P, last of Pennington, New Jerseu, has a memorial stone in a cemetery anywhere, or if his ashes were scattered, or whatever? I contacted Blackwell Funeral Home who told me he was cremated by Pennington Crematorium. From there the trail ends. Any help would be appreciated. Brian Koch - - - - FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR: According to the biographies of the Big Book authors put together by Nancy Olson et al., see: http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm#The%20Unbeli ever Henry Parkhurst "died after a long illness at Glenwood Sanitarium in Trenton, New Jersey, on January 18, 1954, at the age of fifty-seven. Lois Wilson ascribed his death to drinking. Funeral services were held Thursday, January 22 at Blackwell Memorial Home. Rev. A. Kenneth Magner of the First Presbyterian Church performed the service. At the time of his death he and his wife, Kathleen Nixon Parkhurst (whom he had remarried after two failed marriages) were living at Washington-Crossing Road, Pennington, New Jersey. One son, Henry G. Parkhurst, Jr., was living in Madeira Beach, Florida. A second son Robert S. Parkhurst, was living in Pennington." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7463. . . . . . . . . . . . Font used? From: ben42day . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2011 10:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What was the name of the font which was used for the words "Alcoholics Anonymous" as they were printed in the title on the dust jacket of the THIRD EDITION of the Big Book? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7464. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1947 red vinyl recordings of Bill W: transcript of 1st record From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/3/2011 2:20:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Transcript of first record (1947 red vinyl recordings of Bill W) P)side 1 #1 Yet the sum total of these resources does not explain to me the results I have witnessed. In days and weeks I have seen unbelievable changes in their behavior and motivation. Changes in alcoholics which formerly if at all possible should have only taken years at best. I can only say this, there is a power at work among these people for which I can not account. I have to call it the X factor most AA's call it God. I have no scientific explanation for this one. Like our friend the doctor, any A.A. will also admit he can not fully explain the inner mysteries of his own transformation. He can only tell the story, as best he can, so that other may if they wish and their own freedom Mine is a simple tale to tell as with countless other thousands who had gone before me down the left hand path to alcoholic living. I came finally to the jumping off point and could not turn back. It was mid-summer, 1934, at a New York hospital for alcoholics, I was lying on one of those grim beds of physical and mental anguish we AA's had known so well. I had been there before, but this time it was different. this time I had no hope this was the finish, the curtain it seemed to me. What a devastating blow to my pride, I who had thought so well of myself and my ability of my capacity to surmount obstacles, was cornered at last. So I was soon to plunge out into the dark donning that endless procession who had gone on before me I thought of my poor wife, there had been much happiness after all. What would I not give to make amends, but that was over now. No words can tell of the loneliness and bitter despair I found in that morass of self pity. Quicksand stretched around me in all directions I had met my match alcohol was my match. Hence, and anxious, my wife Lois sat downstairs with a staff physician that kindly man, Dr. William Silkworth, a medical saint, if ever there was one, was trying in his gentle way to explain my alcoholic dilemma to her but doctor she said tell me don't try to spare my feelings, tell me truly "Just why can't bill stop, he has desperately wanted to for at least several years about other things he had great willpower and perseverance. He well knows that alcohol means ruin. Oh tell me the truth, why can't he stop? As considerately as he could, the good man explained how my drinking once but a habit had now become a veritable obsession. How my body which could once tolerate alcohol had not become sensitized, allergic they called it So my dilemma was two fold an obsession as powerful as a kleptomaniac for stealing =========================================== Tape 1 pt 2 There are two ways of looking at Alcoholics Anonymous. To our friends seated here among us Alcoholics Anonymous doubtlessly seems a huge and spectacular success . They may be thinking of us as people who have won brilliant personal victory by fighting great odds. But every A.A. in this audience knows his friends give him too much credit that in actuality his recovery did not happen that way at all. each in his heart knows that /// he because too weak to fight alone that he had confess that his life had become unmanageable and therefore unbearable. He remembers how his power of will to conquer alcohol was crushed How he finally saw that he could not win through under his own strength . Never the less he will tell you that this bitter admission , the hardest a human being can make was .The beginning of his new life that new life by which this meeting is such a glowing and grateful testament Hence no A.A. meeting can ever be a boast of personal victory it is instead our humble demonstration of that saving grace which all of us have found in a simple reliance in a power greater than ourselves. But our friends may object, isn't this contrary to most human experience now a days. Each of you quit the fight, you help each other. We admit it worked we have seen the proof. Still your philosophy doesn't entirely make sense. Now-a-days when everybody feels they must fight , here is s society of Alcoholics Anonymous Only by first admitting that they could not personally control the old one let alone managing anything or anybody else. By what stranger paradox has this new strength arisen out of your bi gone weakness, whence out of complete defeat comes your astounding transformation Explain if you can the seeming contradiction this divine paradox These are the very natural questions of those who first observe us. Intuitively our friends sense a mystery. Most of them feel they have seen a miracle. for so powerful has been the alcoholic obsession that all through out the ages few victims have ever survived it. Now comes this wholesale liberation thousands every month Is this miracle of recovery due only to fact that we alcoholics have gotten together telling each other that we are sick advising each other to take in more sufferers and exhorting each other to be more honest and tolerant. Is that all there is to it? Have we only constructed one psychological gadget this time operated by Satan rather than the doctors? Few people who have taken a look at AA believe this to be the full explanation Some years ago, a prominent physician was asked to explain alcoholics anonymous to a group of his colleagues . Said he, when declining the invitation "these AA's have assembled many powerful psychological ??? =========================================== P tape 1 pt 3 And a physical tolerance to alcohol as grim as that of a diabetic to sugar. The obsession condemned me to drink in spite myself . My bodily intolerance ensured that I would die or go mad if I kept it up. My only hope therefore, was the expulsion of my self-destructive obsession, a rare occurrence once it had taken firm hold. At first the doctor had felt that I might be one of those rare exceptions. But now seemingly I was too far gone. I would, he thought, have to be confined somewhere if I were to live very long. Such was my sentence, though not told me in so many words. I well knew what it was. I had tried too many times and had failed too often. I had no more strength to resist I was through. But it was darkest before dawn. For then came a friend with a message He was an alcoholic who had been relieved of his obsession. He stool before me as living proof of what he had to say. One alcoholic talking to another. He could convince where others could not. Despite my reluctance for I was an agnostic, I knew I must heed his message or die. Though not easy to take, his message was simple and direct in the extreme. But within its seeming simplicity it did carry the miraculous power to expel my alcohol obsession and catapult me into a new world. In my case this occurred the very moment I was willing to lay aside my prejudice, admit my personal helplessness and try with out reservation what he offered me. Perhaps this is not the time or place to talk at length of my own recovery of our A.A. program in detail or of our astounding growth. This room is filled with fellow alcoholics who know and practice the A.A. way of life as well as I. The accomplishments of alcoholics anonymous are headlined in presses of the world. So I shall be content, if I can remind myself and any who would hear, that alcoholics anonymous is not after all a personal success story it is instead the story of our colossal human failure now converted into the happiest kind of usefulness by that divine outcome, the living grace of God. For all those who would know us better or who perchance might wish to try our simple message for themselves. I can do no better than leave with them the last seven lines of our book of experience, Alcoholics Anonymous. These lines read as follows: "Abandon yourself to God, as you understand God. Admit your faults to him and your fellows. clear away the wreckage of the past. Give freely of what you find and join us. we shall be with you in the fellowship of the spirit. And you will surely meet more of us as you trudge our road of happy destiny. May God bless you and keep you until then." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7465. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1947 red vinyl recordings of Bill W From: Bryan Reid . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/29/2011 5:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Carl V. Kirsch and Bryan Reid - - - - From: "Carl V. Kirsch" (carlkirsch at yahoo.com) It would be interesting to get the records re-mastered to CDs, if possible. A re-mastered CD of Bill's talk on Nov. 16, 1950, the date Dr. Bob died, is widely available and is great. Bill is only speaking because Father Ed Dowling, S.J. (Appx. V to BB) and Lois suggested he do so. Bill's talk was booked in advance, and it is being made on the one year anniversary of some group's founding. Carl Kirsch Atlanta, GA - - - - From: Bryan Reid (humblephoenix at gmail.com) John I don't have a clue as to what these are. I do, however, have a turntable that connects to my PC and the software to rip the LPs and convert to digital. If that's of any interest, let me know. If you opt to go a different route, I'd love to be able to get a copy somehow. Regards (one day at a time), Bryan IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7466. . . . . . . . . . . . Comments From: Paul . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2011 5:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII See http://hindsfoot.org/aahl001.doc IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7467. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: register by email for 2011 National AA Archives Workshop? From: Jonathan Rose . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2011 5:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Jonathan Rose (jbuckrose1 at mac.com) Nope - - - - From: "gerrynmt" (traditionsway at yahoo.com) Unfortunately there is not. No doubt something future events might do well to consider. - - - - On Jul 6, 2011, at 2:36 PM, Shakey Mike (shakey1aa at yahoo.com) wrote: Any registration by e mail? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7468. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Can groups pay for signers for the hearing impaired? From: Shakey Mike . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/7/2011 8:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Shakey Mike and Brewster Bird - - - - From: Shakey Mike (shakey1aa@yahoo.com) I think GSO and the special needs trustee would be the best source of information on a question of this sort. They could probably answer the question of where signing first happened at an AA meeting or convention. My wife Anne Marie, Mike M. (the Captain), and myself will present a 2 hour history presentation on How AA went to Europe (Dublin) via Conor F (of Philadelphia) at EURYPAA 2 in Dublin, Ireland. Shakey Mike Gwirtz - - - - From: Brewster Bird "mec569" (mec569 at yahoo.com) Historically .... and based on the Traditions .... the group decides to have a business meeting .... inform the group during normal meetings about the importance of 'an informed group conscience' - details read by the group secretary at the end of any regularly scheduled meeting. The group decides which way to go. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7469. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1947 red vinyl recordings of Bill W: transcript of 1st record From: rriley9945@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/8/2011 6:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We have a copy of one of these records on the Suffolk County Intergroup Association Archives page. Here is the link http://suffolkaaarchives.com/ShowAudio.aspx IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7470. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob''s 4th step From: hphopeandjoy . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/7/2011 11:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is there any reference indicating that Dr. Bob wrote a 4th step in the way that is illustrated in the chapter on How it works (Big Book pages 64-71)? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7472. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the businessman who quit for a time From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/27/2011 3:27:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Laurie Andrews and Steve Wells - - - - From: Laurie Andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) When I was a Pentecostal teenager in the 1950s it was common to hear men stand up in church services in London's dockland and testify how they had been drunkards and wife-beaters until Jesus saved them. Wm James quotes various similar examples in The Varieties of Religious Experience. PS: We shouldn't be too triumphalist about this - don't forget, Bill W did not get sober in AA! Also, Silkworth notes in The Doctor's Opinion in the Big Book that, "... the aggregate of recoveries resulting from psychiatric effort is considerable ..." Webster's defines considerable as "large enough to reckon with", so maybe more the one per cent? - - - - From: Steve Wells (swjhawk at yahoo.com) The familiar phrase is that "an obsession is an idea that excludes all others." I replaced drinking with marathoning for 23 months until my knee gave out. It took another 18 months of drinking before I surrendered to AA. - - - - From: glennccc@sbcglobal.net Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 AA has never claimed that going to AA was the only way to get sober. For centuries, some alcoholics had gotten sober by going to church (and some alcoholics still get sober that way today, about 1% or so of the alcoholics who get long term sobriety, by my estimate). The Oxford Group and the Salvation Army provide good examples of people getting sober by coming to Jesus. Likewise, a small percentage of alcoholics can get sober simply by using their will power. The early AA people were well aware of this, and there's ample modern data from the psychologists documenting this. Modern psychologists sometimes claim that the success rate that way can sometimes be as high as two or three percent, but by my own reckoning, it's not quite that high, more like one percent or so at most. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7473. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: We Agnostics From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/8/2011 7:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A quotation from another AA listserve (these are not my words): "One of the things I was thinking about regarding this chapter is the name "We Agnostics," not "The Agnostics" -- I mean, it's almost if they assumed that everyone was an agnostic. Anyone care to explore why they named this chapter the way they did?" - - - - FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR: Note Big Book page 44: "You may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer. To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience seems impossible .... But it isn't so difficult. About half our original fellowship were of exactly that type .... But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life -- or else. Perhaps it is going to be that way with you. But cheer up, something like half of us thought we were atheists or agnostics." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7474. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the businessman who quit for a time From: Richard Ellis . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/8/2011 8:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Richard Ellis (r.ellispe at sbcglobal.net) Interview: A Doctor Speaks ============================= George E. Vaillant, M.D., joined AA's General Service Board as a Class A (nonalcoholic) trustee in 1998. He is professor of psychiatry, Harvard Medical School, director of the Study of Adult Development, Harvard University Health Services, and director of research in the Division of Psychiatry, Brigham and Women's Hospital. The author of The Natural History of Alcoholism Revisited, a comprehensive study of alcoholism, George lectures widely on alcoholism and addiction and is one of the foremost researchers in the field. This article appeared originally on the AA Grapevine Magazine on May, 2001, Vol. 57, No. 12. Available on: http://www.aagrapevine.org Reprinted with permission. ============================= Grapevine: In an article about alcoholism in Harvard Magazine, you were quoted as saying that 50 percent of the people brought into emergency rooms with fractures are there as a result of alcohol, but that bloodalcohol levels are never checked. It made me curious about the way medical professionals view alcoholism today. Can you tell us something about that? George Vaillant: What happens in emergency rooms is actually much more dramatic than that. Probably 50 percent of all the people brought into emergency rooms had blood-alcohol levels over .25 - which is enough to make any nondependent person comatose, not just prone to accidents. And even though this is a clear biochemical fact staring doctors in the face, no referral is made - nothing is done about it - because when it comes to treating alcoholism, the medical profession feels so helpless, so without hope. And for a doctor, feeling powerless is reason enough to put his head in the sand. Grapevine: Why do you think that feeling persists? George Vaillant: You have to remember that very few doctors have ever seen a recovered alcoholic. If you're recovered, you don't have any reason to tell your doctor you're an alcoholic. And if you're not recovered, you go back to see him a hundred times, so you're forever etched in his memory. Consequently, doctors overcount the failures and have no knowledge of the successes. They don't understand that 40 percent of all recovery has probably occurred through Alcoholics Anonymous. Grapevine: What could be done to change that? George Vaillant: The two simplest ways that I know are both within the power of the Fellowship. One is to take your doctor to open meetings so he or she can see for themselves these well-dressed people in nice suits who look like anybody else and have been in recovery for years. It was terribly important for me to get inside of open meetings and see sober alcoholics for myself because they're terribly inspiring. The second is to twelfth-step your doctor - not to teach him about alcohol or Alcoholics Anonymous, but to give him a list of names that motivated patients could call. Doctors aren't experienced enough in their practices to find recovering alcoholics, so recovering alcoholics must either say "I will talk with patients," or give doctors referrals. What medical professionals need is a list of referral sources, clearly typed, and some success using those referrals, so they have hope rather than hopelessness. Grapevine: How did you, a nonalcoholic, get to know AA? George Vaillant: I was working for an alcohol clinic where it was a condition of employment. I had to go to a meeting a month. In addition, half the staff were recovering alcoholics, and they were the first people whom I'd met at Harvard in ten years who knew anything about the disease. Grapevine: Is there any movement afoot to establish that kind of requirement for medical students today? George Vaillant: For the last ten years, medical students in many medical schools have been required to go to one or two AA meetings, due in large part to the activity of AA's CPC (Cooperation with the Professional Community) committee. But the problem is that in your first two meetings, there's so much going on that you don't always get the feeling of, "My God, these people are recovering." It's more about learning what a terrible disease alcoholism is and not about realizing that the people in the meeting are the same people you see in your emergency room with the fractures. that people are only slowly learning is that you can teach medical students anything that's noble and good about people and they get it right on the exam. But where medical students learn how to be doctors is on the hospital wards and in the emergency rooms, where they're working with residents. And interns, for very good reasons, hate active alcoholics with a passion. Therefore, the educational program has to begin again after residency. And that really is something patients can do for their doctors - not by teaching them about AA, but by telling their stories and offering whatever suits them of the Twelve Steps. And, as I said, by giving them a number to call when the roof is falling in. Grapevine: You said about 40 percent of the people who remain abstinent do it through AA. What about the other 60 percent? Could we in AA be more open, more supportive of these? George Vaillant: Yes. You know, if you're batting 400, it's all right to miss a few. I think the fact that AA knows the answer to an extremely complicated problem is probably all right. But it doesn't hurt at the level of GSO for AA to have humility and understand that 60 percent do it without AA. It's also true that most of those 60 percent do it with the AA toolbox: their spirituality doesn't come from AA; their support group doesn't come from AA; and what I call "substitute dependency" doesn't come from AA. But they still use the same ingredients that AA uses. And I don't think there's anything that the other 60 percent are doing that AA needs to learn from, except: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." If you meet someone who has stayed sober for more than three years and they're pleased and boasting that they did it without AA, thank your Higher Power for another recovery. You know, there's "little" sobriety, being dry, and there's sobriety with a big S, which includes humility and not thinking that you're the center of the earth. So if someone is doing something without your help, good enough. Grapevine: What have you discovered about AA since becoming a trustee? Or as you put it, what if anything has made you say, "Aha!" George Vaillant: I'd never seen the General Service Manual before, and to me as a nonalcoholic, it is a great piece of world literature, like the American Constitution. It is a great contribution to human thought. I've also learned something about spirituality. Every time there is a board weekend, I arrive thinking, "Oh my God, this is another weekend I'm not with my family." Then I spend the next two days bathed in love and acceptance that is not from my being anyone special. So I've learned another definition of spirituality: we are each like the beautiful wave that's about to crash on the beach, saying, "This is it. This is forever." Then a voice from behind says, "Don't worry, son. You're not a wave; you're part of the ocean." Grapevine: There is still a great deal of debate about the role of addicts in AA. What are your views on that? George Vaillant: This is a terribly important question. AAs should focus on alcoholism. They're right. They've got enough to do, and there are enough alcoholics to go around in the world that they should never fear for their primary purpose. But because there are a lot of people with mixed addictions, it's important for individual groups that can tolerate them to be tolerant and inclusive. There are some groups that welcome white, middle-aged Protestant males. And that's okay; they should be there, even though the rest of AA may regard them as hopeless dinosaurs and politically incorrect. And there are other groups that tolerate people who spend a little bit too much time talking about their $5-million cocaine habit and not enough time talking about alcoholism. And that's the wave of the future. There are increasingly fewer alcoholics. So some groups are going to have to change. Grapevine: What are some of the other challenges that AA faces? George Vaillant: I think there are two, really. One is to come to some meaningful terms with the individuals who are frightened that AA is a religion. This will involve some work and growth in AA to incorporate its diversity without losing its traditions. This is in keeping with the question of keeping the first 164 pages that Bill W. wrote in the Big Book and at the same time including contemporary stories about things some groups might be horrified by. The second challenge (and this may be more important to me as a class A trustee) is to convey to the world what an extraordinary organization Alcoholics Anonymous is - not only in its ability to cure alcoholism but in its ability to conceptualize the fact that we're all one planet. Just as an example, groups that are supposed to know about human beings and to be peaceful - the Christian church, the psychoanalytic movement, and the peace movement - are constantly splintering and fighting with each other. And somehow for sixty years, AA has kept two million very diverse individuals, who in their past lives were often a lot less peaceful than the Christians, the psychoanalysts, and the advocates of peace, working together for a common good. I'm not sure that's a challenge to the Fellowship, or necessary to keep people sober. It's simply to me a challenge that people appreciate the depth of this message, which is expressed more in the Twelve Traditions and Twelve Concepts that in the Twelve Steps. Grapevine: When you spoke of religious skeptics or of those fearful that AA might have a religious agenda, were you thinking of professionals in the field of alcoholism, or alcoholics themselves? George Vaillant: Oh, both. Alcoholics, because of the shame, are enormously sensitive to exclusion. So to say, "If you want what we have, you have to believe in a Higher Power; you have to be spiritual, or you have to fake it till you make it" is enormously threatening to some people. They're still at a point of self-absorption; the idea of depending on a power greater than themselves is something they're going to have to learn. Think of it this way: there are a lot of things parents believe, like the value of working hard and completing an education, that make no sense to an eighteen-year-old. And for some alcoholics, spirituality is like one of those things that you learn when you get older. AA has to constantly remind itself that it needs to meet people where they are and that it can only make loving suggestions. Bill W. spells out very clearly that Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religion. And he makes it clear that there should be nothing about AA that excludes anyone who's a suffering alcoholic. But how you get people who've grown up in one tradition to understand how the world looks to people who've grown up in another takes ongoing discussion. Universality is very hard to achieve. And AA, in its effort of world unity, is constantly having to evolve. It's not a question of changing. It's a process of growth. Copyright 2001, AA Grapevine Magazine, Inc., All Rights Reserved Interview: A Doctor Speaks - George Vaillant Page 3 of 3 http://www.divisiononaddictions.org/html/reprints/vaillant.htm 6/26/2011 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7475. . . . . . . . . . . . Betty Ford Dies: Former First Lady Dead At Age 93 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/9/2011 11:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 9 July 2011, 12:44 AM ET, Associated Press, by Connie Cass and Linda Deutsche, see the Huffington Post at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/08/betty-ford-dies-former-dead_n_89366 4.ht\ ml [21] LOS ANGELES -- Betty Ford, the former first lady whose triumph over drug and alcohol addiction became a beacon of hope for addicts and the inspiration for her Betty Ford Center in California, died at age 93, a family friend said late Friday. Her death Friday was confirmed to The Associated Press by Marty Allen, chairman emeritus of the Ford Foundation. Family spokeswoman Barbara Lewandrowski said later that the former first lady died at the Eisenhower Medical Center in Rancho Mirage. Other details of her death were not immediately available. "She was a wonderful wife and mother; a great friend; and a courageous First Lady," former President George H.W. Bush said in a statement on Friday. "No one confronted life's struggles with more fortitude or honesty, and as a result, we all learned from the challenges she faced." While her husband served as president, Ford's comments weren't the kind of genteel, innocuous talk expected from a first lady, and a Republican one no less. Her unscripted comments sparked tempests in the press and dismayed President Gerald Ford's advisers, who were trying to soothe the national psyche after Watergate. But to the scandal-scarred, Vietnam-wearied, hippie-rattled nation, Mrs. Ford's openness was refreshing. And 1970s America loved her for it. According to Mrs. Ford, her young adult children probably had smoked marijuana -- and if she were their age, she'd try it, too. She told "60 Minutes" she wouldn't be surprised to learn that her youngest, 18-year-old Susan, was in a sexual relationship (an embarrassed Susan issued a denial). She mused that living together before marriage might be wise, thought women should be drafted into the military if men were, and spoke up unapologetically for abortion rights, taking a position contrary to the president's. "Having babies is a blessing, not a duty," Mrs. Ford said. "Mother's love, candor, devotion, and laughter enriched our lives and the lives of the millions she touched throughout this great nation," her family said in a statement released late Friday. "To be in her presence was to know the warmth of a truly great lady." Candor worked for Betty Ford, again and again. She would build an enduring legacy by opening up the toughest times of her life as public example. In an era when cancer was discussed in hushed tones and mastectomy was still a taboo subject, the first lady shared the specifics of her breast cancer surgery. The publicity helped bring the disease into the open and inspired countless women to seek breast examinations. Her most painful revelation came 15 months after leaving the White House, when Mrs. Ford announced that she was entering treatment for a longtime addiction to painkillers and alcohol. It turned out the famously forthcoming first lady had been keeping a secret, even from herself. She used the unvarnished story of her own descent and recovery to crusade for better addiction treatment, especially for women. She co-founded the nonprofit Betty Ford Center near the Fords' home in Rancho Mirage, Calif., in 1982. Mrs. Ford raised millions of dollars for the center, kept close watch over its operations, and regularly welcomed groups of new patients with a speech that started, "Hello, my name's Betty Ford, and I'm an alcoholic and drug addict." Although most famous for a string of celebrity patients over the years -- from Elizabeth Taylor and Johnny Cash to Lindsay Lohan -- the center keeps its rates relatively affordable and has served more than 90,000 people. In a statement Friday, President Barack Obama said the Betty Ford Center would honor Mrs. Ford's legacy "by giving countless Americans a new lease on life." "As our nation's First Lady, she was a powerful advocate for women's health and women's rights," the president said. "After leaving the White House, Mrs. Ford helped reduce the social stigma surrounding addiction and inspired thousands to seek much-needed treatment." Mrs. Ford was a free spirit from the start. Elizabeth Bloomer, born April 8, 1918, fell in love with dance as a girl in Grand Rapids, Mich., and decided it would be her life. At 20, despite her mother's misgivings, she moved to New York to learn from her idol Martha Graham. She lived in Greenwich Village, worked as a model, and performed at Carnegie Hall in Graham's modern dance ensemble. "I thought I had arrived," she later recalled. But her mother coaxed her back to Grand Rapids, where Betty worked as a dance teacher and store fashion coordinator and married William Warren, a friend from school days. He was a salesman who traveled frequently; she was unhappy. They lasted five years. While waiting for her divorce to become final, she met and began dating, as she put it in her memoir, "probably the most eligible bachelor in Grand Rapids" -- former college football star, Navy veteran and lawyer Jerry Ford. They would be married for 58 years, until his death in December 2006. Two weeks after their October 1948 wedding, her husband was elected to his first term in the House. He would serve 25 years, rising to minority leader. While her husband campaigned for weeks at a time or worked late on Capitol Hill, she raised their four children: Michael, Jack, Steven and Susan. She arranged luncheons for congressional wives, helped with her husband's campaigns, became a Cub Scout den mother, taught Sunday school. A pinched nerve in her neck in 1964, followed by the onset of severe osteoarthritis, led her to an assortment of prescription drugs that never fully relieved the pain. For years she had been what she later called "a controlled drinker, no binges." Now she began mixing pills and alcohol. Feeling overwhelmed and underappreciated, she suffered an emotional breakdown that led to weekly visits with a psychiatrist. The psychiatrist didn't take note of her drinking but instead tried to build her self-esteem: "He said I had to start thinking I was valuable, not just as a wife and mother, but as myself." The White House would give her that gift. In 1973, as Mrs. Ford was happily anticipating her husband's retirement from politics, Vice President Spiro Agnew was forced out of office over bribery charges. President Richard Nixon turned to Gerald Ford to fill the office. Less than a year later, his presidency consumed by the Watergate scandal, Nixon resigned. On Aug. 9, 1974, Gerald Ford was sworn in as the only chief executive in American history who hadn't been elected either president or vice president. Mrs. Ford wrote of her sudden ascent to first lady: "It was like going to a party you're terrified of, and finding out to your amazement that you're having a good time." She was 56 when she moved into the White House, and looked more matronly than mod. Ever gracious, her chestnut hair carefully coifed into a soft bouffant, she tended to speak softly and slowly, even when taking a feminist stand. Her breast cancer diagnosis, coming less than two months after President Ford was whisked into office, may have helped disarm the clergymen, conservative activists and Southern politicians who were most inflamed by her loose comments. She was photographed recovering at Bethesda Naval Hospital, looking frail in her robe, and won praise for grace and courage. "She seems to have just what it takes to make people feel at home in the world again," media critic Marshall McLuhan observed at the time. "Something about her makes us feel rooted and secure -- a feeling we haven't had in a while. And her cancer has been a catharsis for everybody." The public outpouring of support helped her embrace the power of her position. "I was somebody, the first lady," she wrote later. "When I spoke, people listened." She used her newfound influence to lobby aggressively for the Equal Rights Amendment, which failed nonetheless, and to speak against child abuse, raise money for handicapped children, and champion the performing arts. It's debatable whether Mrs. Ford's frank nature helped or hurt her husband's 1976 campaign to win a full term as president. Polls showed she was widely admired. By taking positions more liberal than the president's, she helped broaden his appeal beyond traditional Republican voters. But she also outraged some conservatives, leaving the president more vulnerable to a strong GOP primary challenge by Ronald Reagan. That battle weakened Ford going into the general election against Democrat Jimmy Carter. Carter won by a slim margin. The president had lost his voice in the campaign's final days, and it was Mrs. Ford who read his concession speech to the nation. The Fords retired to a Rancho Mirage golf community, but he spent much of his time away, giving speeches and playing in golf tournaments. Home alone, deprived of her exciting and purposeful life in the White House, Mrs. Ford drank. By 1978 her secret was obvious to those closest to her. "As I got sicker," she recalled, "I gradually stopped going to lunch. I wouldn't see friends. I was putting everyone out of my life." Her children recalled her living in a stupor, shuffling around in her bathrobe, refusing meals in favor of a drink. Her family finally confronted her and insisted she seek treatment. "I was stunned at what they were trying to tell me about how I disappointed them and let them down," she said in a 1994 Associated Press interview. "I was terribly hurt -- after I had spent all those years trying to be the best mother, wife I could be. ... Luckily, I was able to hear them saying that I needed help and they cared too much about me to let it go on." She credited their "intervention" with saving her life. Mrs. Ford entered Long Beach Naval Hospital and, alongside alcoholic young sailors and officers, underwent a grim detoxification that became the model for therapy at the Betty Ford Center. In her book "A Glad Awakening," she described her recovery as a second chance at life. And in that second chance, she found a new purpose. "There is joy in recovery," she wrote, "and in helping others discover that joy." Family spokeswoman Lewandrowski the family expects to organize a service in Palm Springs over the next couple days. Ford's body will be sent to Michigan for burial alongside former President Gerald Ford, who is buried at his namesake museum in Grand Rapids. ___ Associated Press writers Shaya Tayefe Mohajer in Los Angeles and Mike Householder in Detroit contributed to this report. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7476. . . . . . . . . . . . Psychological studies in the Armed Services From: joe . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/10/2011 10:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "You get drunk sooner in a crowded, poorly ventilated room than you would in fresh air. You feel the effects sooner if you are sitting down than if you are standing up—and you are less aware of the effects when standing. If you want to stay sober, the best position is to stand on one foot and put the other up on the traditional brass rail, and the best activity is to walk briskly outdoors in the fresh air. If you want to get the greatest effect from the smallest drink, lie down." This is one quote from a 1947 book called "Psychology for the Armed Services". This is a 533 page volume written by a committee of The National Research Council, commissioned by the War Department. It helps puts into perspective the challenges faced by early AA members like Sgt Bill S. in these pioneering days of our AA history. For perspective, Sgt Bill S. wrote about his experiences trying to get help in the VA system in 1945. Following World War II, Sgt Bill S. needed help, but the Veterans hospital refused him on the grounds of his alcoholism, "the V.A. Hospital would have been willing to treat the malaria, but the fact that I was also a drunk meant that I was barred from all medical aid." What a long way AA has come, through work with professionals and good examples. Here are a few more quotes. I would love to know if anyone has knowledge of research this committee might have used to draw the conclusions about drinking on one foot, lying down, and room ventilation to change the effect of alcohol. "Alcohol is a poor overcoat. If it is taken for its warming effect, it should be drunk after the exposure to cold, not before or during the exposure." "You get more kick out of a drink on an empty stomach than after you have had a square meal. Fats in the stomach—milk, cream, butter, cheese, olive oil—are especially helpful in keeping you sober." Perhaps why someone once thought putting whiskey in milk made any sense. The section does end with a reference to what might be the phenomenon of craving, certainly influenced by that school of thought. Although, it would leave a reader needing help with little hope or guidance on where to get it. Here is the last paragraph. "There is one unusual kind of person who must never drink at all. He is the man who cannot take the smallest amount of alcohol without immediately going to excess and getting stupidly drunk. He is quite unable to take "just one glass of beer" and has to leave the whole business alone. The first glass sets up a craving for a second, and so it goes. When these men have formed the habit of not drinking, they get along very well. It is moderation that is difficult for them." _____________________________________ Sgt. Bill S., "On the Military Firing Line in the Alcoholism Treatment Program," second printing to be released this autumn as William E. Swegan, "The Psychology of Alcoholism." Sgt. Bill was a Pearl Harbor survivor who got sober on Long Island in 1948. He worked closely with Mrs. Marty Mann, Yev Gardner, Searcy W., and Dr. Jellinek; also spent a year observing Sister Ignatia in action at Akron (one chapter of his book describes in detail how her alcoholic ward was run). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7477. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: register by email for 2011 National AA Archives Workshop? From: J Barry Murtaugh . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/8/2011 7:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have for a long time lobbied for an AA subscription type secure online event registration resource available to all registered groups, areas etc. Could be a Grapevine or similar offering. Might cover some costs and provide margin to support the mission. Tried it at Regional Forums and even at San Antonio. Could be inexpensive and provide current technology to events that may not have access to people or technology on their own. bear IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7478. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Question about the Third Step and Seventh Step Prayers From: Larry Tooley . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/7/2011 4:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Larry Tooley and Barry Murtaugh - - - - "Larry Tooley" (wa9guu at charter.net) Great wisdom, Tommy!!!! Thank you Larry - - - - From: J Barry Murtaugh (murtaughjbarry1 at gmail.com) Well put Tommy. bear - - - - ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Hickcox Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 2:47 PM Subject: Re: Question about the Third Step and Seventh Step Prayers At 12:44 6/24/2011, Lisa B wrote: >I've heard but never really questioned the story that the Seventh >Step prayer is the completion of the Third Step prayer -- and that >the evidence is based on the fact that Bill W. put an Amen after the >Seventh Step prayer but not after the Third Step prayer. > >What's the truth about this? > The truth is that is the way the book was written. Why do you think it is significant? They were trying to tell the world what they did and didn't scrutinize every word to insure it was the best possible word to use in that exact place. Self-appointed Big Book scholars like to go on and on about things like this as, in their minds at least, it makes them appear important and knowledgeable. A lot of them can't find their tush with both hands outside our rooms. What's important is what is said, now how it's said. IMHO, since they used thees and thous in the Third Step Prayer and didn't in the Seventh, it is obvious to me that there is no intentional connection, but that is my two cents. That's my story and I am sticking to it. Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7479. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Where is Hank Parkhurst buried? From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/9/2011 4:20:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hank's obit can be found in the Jan 27, 1954 edition of The Hopewell Herald. This is a weekly newspaper. He died on Jan 18, 1954 and buried on Jan 21, 1954. Oddly enough on page one of this same edition is an article about a fire on the farm of Hank's son, Henry Jr. The fire cased $40,000 in damage including the killing of 2,500 chickens. A quick search on the Find A Grave website states Hank is buried in First Presbyterian Church of Ewing Cemetery, Ewing, Mercer County, NJ. I have requested a photo of his tombstone, but you might want to contact the office at the cemetery to make sure this is his final resting place. Will let the group know when a photo is available. Here is a transcript of his obit: hope this helps Charles from Wisconsin ======================================== Henry G. Parkhurst, Sr. Dies Private funeral services for Henry G. Parkhurst, Sr, 57 years of age, were held on Thursday afternoon from the Blackwell Memorial Home. Mr. Parkhurst died on Monday in Mercer Hospital, Trenton, after a lengthy illness. The Rev. A. Kenneth Magner, pastor of the First Presbyterian Church, officiated. Interment was at the convenience of the family. He is survived by his wife, Mrs Kathleen Nixon Parkhurst; two sons, Henry G. Jr., of St Petersburg, Fla, and Robert S., and one grandson. He and his wife lived on the Pennington-Washington Crossing Road. They formerly lived on North Main Street in the borough. The Hopewell Herald, Wednesday January 27, 1954, Vol 79 No 17 Page 3 ======================================== Orig. message from: B >Sent: Friday, July 8, 2011 8:03 AM >Subject: Where is Hank Parkhurst buried? > >I am trying to find out if Hank P, last of Pennington, New Jerseu, has a memorial stone in a cemetery anywhere, or if his ashes were scattered, or whatever? I contacted Blackwell Funeral Home who told me he was cremated by Pennington Crematorium. From there the trail ends. Any help would be appreciated. > >Brian Koch IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7480. . . . . . . . . . . . No genuine recording of Bill W. on the night Dr. Bob died From: Jim Hoffman . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/12/2011 2:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Jim Hoffmann, Bill Lash, and Jared Lobdell - - - - From: "Jim Hoffman" (jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com) I'm sorry to be a wet blanket but the CD in question is a play written and performed by a person from NY and not a recording of Bill W. If you have a CD of Bill and compare the voice versus your recording you can tell they are not the same. My company produced a newsletter in January, 2008 where we discussed the tape/CD that has been going around. It references a newspaper article about a performance that occurred in July of the previous year. Since I don't think that this forum should have anything that could remotely be mistaken for advertisement, I will not attach the newsletter to this response. However, anyone wishing to have a copy may contact me at either email address listed below. The gentleman who wrote and performed this play also wrote and performed a play based on Dr. Bob's writings entitled "Dreamscape". Jim H. Office: (visionaudio at verizon.net) Personal: (jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com) - - - - From: Bill Lash (barefootbill AT optonline.net) I would hope that everyone would know this by now but the recording of Bill W. speaking on the night that Dr. Bob died is NOT Bill W. It is a play by Bill McN. from Lancaster PA acting as Bill W. at a speaking commitment. The real Bill W. did not speak on the night that Dr. Bob died. Just Love, Barefoot Bill - - - - From: "J. Lobdell" (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) So far as I know, "Bill's talk on Nov. 16, 1950, the date Dr. Bob died" is an historical "reconstruction" of a talk that might have been given by Bill that night if he had given a talk that night, which, so far as I know, he didn't. The talk was created by Bill M. of Lancaster, Pennsylvania, who has appeared around the country giving it in a presentation called MOMENTS, to help AAs who don't read or read much envision the relationship between AA's co-founder, and how Dr. Bob's death did in fact affect Bill, and to give them a sense of the history of AA. There was a brief note on the talk in MARKINGS a couple of years ago. All the words, so far as I know, are Bill W's, but not in a talk on Nov. 16, 1950. =============================================== THE FIRST QUESTION THAT HAD BEEN ASKED -- IS THIS RECORDING GENUINELY BILL W. SPEAKING? From: "Carl V. Kirsch" (carlkirsch at yahoo.com) A re-mastered CD of Bill's talk on Nov. 16, 1950, the date Dr. Bob died, is widely available and is great. Bill is only speaking because Father Ed Dowling, S.J. (Appx. V to BB) and Lois suggested he do so. Bill's talk was booked in advance, and it is being made on the one year anniversary of some group's founding. Carl Kirsch Atlanta, GA =============================================== A SECOND QUESTION ON A SIMILAR TOPIC -- IS THIS YOU TUBE VIDEO AN ACCURATE RE-ENACTMENT? From: (Egojames007 at aol.com) Sun, June 12, 2011 Last spoken words from Dr Bob to Bill W... The YouTube video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVJZHTZHffg claims to be an acurate re-enactment of the last spoken words from Dr Bob to Bill W. Is it accurate? =============================================== IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7481. . . . . . . . . . . . Is this Ohio A.A. Approved Literature Statement from the G.S.O.? From: Gary Neidhardt . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/10/2011 4:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I visited Akron and Cleveland in May, and in one of the two Inter-group offices, I picked up a type written sheet that said the following. Taken from the G.S.O. Service Manual "Conference-approved" -- What it means to you The term "Conference-approved" describes written or audiovisual material approved by the Conference for publication by G.S.O. This process assures that everything in such literature is in accord with A.A. principles. Conference-approved material always deals with the recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous or with information about the A.A. Fellowship. The term has no relation to material not published by G.S.O. It does not imply Conference disapproval of other material about A.A. A great deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and A.A. does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or may not read. Central Offices and inter-groups do write and distribute pamphlets or booklets that are not Conference-approved. If such pieces meet the needs of the local membership, they may be legitimately classified as "A.A. literature". There is no conflict between A.A. World Service, Inc. (publishers of Conference-approved literature), and central offices or inter-groups -- rather they complement each other. The Conference does not disapprove of such material. I collected a lot of literature that is not conference approved in both offices and am delighted with their contents. Before presenting this information to my District, I thought I'd go to my A.A. Service Manual, which is a 2005-2006 version, to see on what page the above three paragraphs appear. I couldn't find them. So I Googled G.S.O. Service Manual, and came up with a PDF of the 2010-2011 version of the A.A.Service Manual, and used the Adobe Search facility of the document. I still could not find these three paragraphs. My question is very simple. Does anybody have a copy of the G.S.O. Service Manual that contains these three paragraphs? A followup question: If they ever were in the G.S.O. Service Manual, what year were they removed? Or is there a G.S.O. Service Manual that exists that is not the "A.A. Service Manual Combined With Twelve Concepts for World Services"? Gary Neidhardt Lilburn, Georgia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7482. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: We Agnostics From: johnlawlee . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/9/2011 1:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From johnlawlee, Dougbert, steven.calderbank, Steve Wells, Baileygc23@aol.com, and edcasey74 - - - - From: "johnlawlee" (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) An agnostic is someone who believes the existence of God can neither be proven NOR disproven, or that's at least the definition that you'd get from a good theology reference book. The second part is usually missed. If you can prove the existence of God, please post the link. Since Bill didn't style the Chapter "To The Agnostic", it seems fair to assume that he considered ALL of us to be agnostic to an extent. You can be an agnostic AND a Believer at the same time. No contradiction. John Lee Pittsburgh - - - - From: Dougbert (dougbert8 at yahoo.com) The "We Agnostics" title was 1939 politically correct. To use the word atheist was the equivalent of being a sinner, evil-doer, and was just too much to swallow. Deists were acceptable, but the common man did not know what a deist was. It is the same rationale for Freethinkers, although we did have Freethinkers in the '30s. It would have been more honest to identify as Alcoholic Non-Christians, since that was the real problem for the majority of newcomers who would reject A.A.'s Faith-Based Healing Model. If Freethinkers had spoken of themselves as a "Church" back then, people would be taking a new look at the religious nature of A.A. In Fellowship. Doug - - - - From: "Steven" (steven.calderbank at verizon.net) They called it We Agnostics because we have all doubted that God could work in our lives: Page 44- IN THE PRECEDING chapters you have learned something of alcoholism. We hope we have made clear the distinction between the alcoholic and the nonalcoholic. If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking, you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic. If that be the case, you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer. To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience seems impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster, especially if he is an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face. - - - - From: Steve Wells (swjhawk at yahoo.com) Because the chapter is addressed to agnostics. I don't read the implication that all drunks are agnostics (however, whether attached to a religion or not, many have given up on "God'). - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) The idea is there through the 1955 convention. AA comes of age, pg. 254 Father Dowling said, "First of all, to look at us we are three things, I think--alcoholics, Alcoholics Anonymous,and agnostic." - - - - From: "edcasey74" (personaminor at gmail.com) The ancient term, "gnosis," means "knowledge," but it refers to a particular kind of knowledge of the divine that can only be gained through experience, specifically through experience with of the self. As we learn in the Big Book, any alcoholic who is unable to control his/her drinking lacks the power to do so, and is unable to create a connection with a power greater than him/herself. Therefore, any active alcoholic, regardless of whether he/she "believes" in God is agnostic (literally, "without knowledge," or "without gnosis"). To take this a step further, if we are to stay sober, we must continually grow spiritually. We must continue to attain more knowledge/gnosis. So every alcoholic (recovered or not) is, to a certain extent, agnostic. The title of the chapter is not, "We Were Once Agnostic But Aren't any Longer." It is "We Agnostics," present tense. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7483. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob''s fourth step From: Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/9/2011 4:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII See Message #5102: Re: Fifth steps in early AA http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5102 from Laurie Andrews, Terry Walton, and Tommy Hickcox - - - - From Laurie Andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) Is it recorded anywhere when, where and with whom Dr Bob took the fifth step? "Pass It On" recounts that the morning of his last drink, after Bill gave him "one 'goofball' and a single bottle of beer, to curb the shakes" Bob set off to perform a surgical procedure. Hours later he returned home, having driven around to his creditors and others to make amends. So it seems he did not take the fifth step after his last drink; did he take the first five steps with Bill in the previous few weeks, while Bill was lodging with him? Also, how many fifth steps did Bill take? AA literature relates two occasions: in his story in the Big Book Bill wrote, "(After leaving hospital) my schoolmate (Ebby) visited me, and I fully acquainted him with my problems and deficiencies. We made a list of people I had hurt or toward whom I felt resentment. I expressed my entire willingness to approach these individuals, admitting my wrong (steps four through nine)." Then, "Pass It On" records of Bill's first meeting with Fr Ed Dowling, "That evening, Father Ed began sharing with Bill an understanding of the spiritual life that then and ever after seemed to speak to Bill's condition. [interesting Quaker phrase! - see George Fox, "There is one, even Christ Jesus, who can speak to thy condition"] Bill, author of the Fifth Step, would later characterize that evening as the night he took his Fifth Step... he unburdened himself of his commissions and omissions, all of which had lain heavily on his mind, and of which he had found, until then, no way to speak...." (Surely that was a Step Ten?) - - - - From: "terry walton" (twalton at 3gcinc.com) We have many examples in the Big Book of people outside of AA "hearing our story" or 5th steps. The first is Bill in his own words: BB pg 13:3 "My schoolmate visited me, and I fully acquainted him with my problems and deficiencies." We also know this done again in AA Comes of Age when Bill meets Father Ed Dowling. Both men outside of AA. In the book Alcoholics Anonymous it suggests using the properly appointed people. The list of "proper people" suggested is: page 74:0 1. Those of us belonging to a religious denomination which requires confession must, and of course, will want to go to the properly appointed authority whose duty it is to receive it. 2. Though we have no religious connection, we may still do well to talk with someone ordained by an established religion. 3. Perhaps our doctor or 4. or psychologist will be the person. 5. It may be one of our own family 6. we cannot disclose anything to our wives or our parents which will hurt them and make them unhappy. (this is saying a family member or wife is a good candidate as long as what is shared is not at their expense) The directions for "whom" is to hear this pretty clear: Notwithstanding the great necessity for discussing ourselves with someone, it may be one is so situated that there is no suitable person available. If that is so, this step may be postponed, only, however, if we hold ourselves in complete readiness to go through with it at the first opportunity. We say this because we are very anxious that we talk to the right person. It is important that he be able to keep a confidence; that he fully understand and approve what we are driving at; A priest, minister, rabbi, which their duty is to receive this, under the protection of the right of confession these conversations are protected by Church law. A doctor or psychologist or attorney all are good suggestions for the same reason, client confidentiality. I find it petty convincing the men that wrote this, expected a man or woman to use a religious person "whose duty it is to receive it. since it is suggested not once, but twice. And backed up again shortly with the 11th step suggestion of "make use of what they offer". Terry Walton - - - - From: Tommy Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) We have Earl Treat's story of doing the early steps in his story "He Sold Himself Short."The specific passage is on p. 292 in the Third Edition and p. 263 in the current edition.Technically, though, this wasn't a Fifth Step as the program had only six steps at the time.He did it with Dr. Bob. No mention is made of going through the steps with someone outside the program. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7484. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Can groups pay for signers for the hearing impaired? From: rsmith77379 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/9/2011 6:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In my area, the local Intergroup (Central Office) has taken on the burden of paying for signers. They have a "chair", who receives the request, and then tries to coordinate some central meeting spot for two or more hearing impared AA's. The "pay" comes out of the donations made to Intergroup by the various Groups. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7485. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is this Ohio A.A. Approved Literature Statement from the G.S.O.? From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/13/2011 2:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Actually it is from a 'Service Material Flyer' from the GSO. It can be found at: http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/smf-29_en.pdf Also, in the aa fact file http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/m-24_aafactfile.pdf there is a definition of conference approved literature and other literature: A substantial body of literature describing and interpreting the A.A. program has developed. This material may be classified under three headings: A.A. Literature Reflecting Worldwide Experience: Material in this classification, prepared at the General Service Office under the supervision of representative committees, carry the words "This is A.A. General Service Conference-approved literature." A.A. Literature Prepared by Local Groups or Regional Committees: A number of local groups have produced pamphlets, books and other material which, although excellent in many respects, are not considered representative of A.A. as a whole. Non-A.A. Literature About A.A. Material in this category includes articles in mass circulation media and technical journals and books in which the recovery program is described by non-A.A.s. Then, on the AA.org website at: http://www.aa.org/subpage.cfm?page=98 Service Material from the G.S.O. Service material is available to A.A. members upon request. This material differs from Conference-approved literature in that it has not come about through Conference Advisory Action. It is produced when there is a need for readily available information on a specific subject. Service material reflects A.A. group experience as well as specific and timely information that is subject to change. There is a long list of material which falls into the 'Service Material' which is not conference approved apparently. This list includes: A.A. Fact Sheet A.A. Guidelines A.A. Preamble The A.A. Preamble: Background Information Concepts Checklist Estimates of A.A. Groups and Members How to Conduct Sharing Session Is Your Group Linked to A.A. As a Whole? The Twelve Concepts for World Service (Short Form) The Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous (short form) The Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous Traditions Checklist - from the A.A. Grapevine Sponsorship a Vital Stepping-Stone to Service & Sobriety Suggested Topics for Discussion Meetings Suggested Workshop Format Loners-Internationalists Correspondence Service Conference-Approved Literature Sharing from Local Committiees Working With the Elder Community Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7486. . . . . . . . . . . . Pennsylvania History and Archives Gathering From: Jared Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/17/2011 5:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: (jaredlobdell at comcast.net) The 2011 Multi-District History and Archives Gathering will be held on Saturday, October 8th, location to be announced shortly (in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania). The Gathering has been held (except in International Convention years) annually beginning in 2003. Further details available shortly. Questions may be directed to histandarch@comcast.net (histandarch at comcast.net) Thanks -- Jared IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7487. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Where is Hank Parkhurst buried? From: brian koch . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2011 6:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thanks for the help, and the snippet about the chicken farm. I think someone posted the find-a-grave info as a result of my inquiry, as just the most likely location of his burial place. I don't believe he is buried there but will follow up on that thread. He was cremated, that much is known, as Blackwell Funeral Home handled the services and they still have records showing his body was taken to Pennington Crematorium. Hoping to find family members who may have more info. Much thanks and God bless. Poor Hank, really consumed by big shotism, and also very bitter about his perceived treatment and neglect when it came to "credit" for his role in the writing and publishing of the big book. From what I understand the family carried some resentment about lack of royalties, but haven't confirmed that personally yet.... Brian IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7488. . . . . . . . . . . . Did Bill Wilson ever call himself a recovered alcoholic? From: bikergaryg@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/23/2011 10:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hey Gary: I was wondering if you knew if Bill Wilson ever introduced himself as a "recovered" alcoholic at meetings or when speaking, or did he just "my name is Bill, I am an alcoholic"? thanks, marlene IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7489. . . . . . . . . . . . Pamphlet entitled Partners in A.A. From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/22/2011 1:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a pamphlet here dated 4-58 entitled "Partners In A.A." Does anyone know what pamphlet replaced it? I would rather not guess at the conversion. John Wikelius justjohn1431946@yahoo.com (justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7490. . . . . . . . . . . . What and where is Dr Bob''s tattoo? From: Joseph A. . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/23/2011 1:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What and where is Dr Bob's tattoo? - - - - From Glenn C. the moderator -- see the article on "Doctor Bob's Nightmare" in http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm or http://www.silkworth.net/aabiography/roberthsmith.html <> <> IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7491. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Helen Wynn From: B . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/20/2011 6:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII According to my information, [Helen Wynn's son] Mr Strudwick is alive and living in France. However, he is NOT receiving big book royalties. GSO provided me with a copy of the 1963 Royalty Agreement between Bill Wilson and AA, including amendments made after his death. "With the exception of any life interest he might leave Lois Wilson, any such bequest to others would lapse and revert to AAWS upon the death of the beneficiary." note at bottom: Bill left 10% royalties to a beneficiary who subsequently died. Upon her death, that person's share, i.e. 1.5% of the retail price on all sales of Covered Works, then reverted to AAWS. We know, and can find from copies of Bill's will, that this person was Helen Wynn. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "beachsufi" wrote: > > Presumably if Helen Wynn's son Shepperd Strudwick III is still alive he would still be receiving royalties from the Big Book as Helen's only heir, and could be traced that way. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7492. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Chuck Chamberlain (and Mercedes McCambridge) From: Dolores . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/20/2011 9:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, is there a record of the hearing of Mercedes McCambridge before Congress about the Senator Hughes act of Congress, which brought the treatment centers to the US Military in the then Western Germany? Dolores ----- Original Message ----- From: Susan Banker To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 12:37 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Chuck Chamberlain From Susan Banker and Jared Lobdell - - - - From: Susan Banker in New York City (sbanker914 at aol.com) Hello Ryan, This is one interesting item that I found online: Chuck C.'s Testimony Before a U.S. Senate Subcommittee http://silkworth.net/aahistory/chuckc1969.html ************************************ Re-printed with permission by Nancy Olson, moderator of The AA History Lovers e-group. Nancy's book "With a Lot of Help from Our Friends" is the major study of the passing of the Hughes Act -- it was the Hughes Act, NOT Prohibition, which was the most important piece of alcoholism legislation in 20th century U.S. history. The Hughes Act still provides the basis for modern U.S. alcoholism treatment centers. ************************************ Nancy Olson says: Chuck C., a well-known early AA member in California, testified before the Alcoholism and Drug Abuse Subcommittee in Los Angeles on Saturday, September 27, 1969. This is his testimony which I have copied from the official hearing records: Present: Senators Hughes, (presiding), Dominick, and Saxbe [members of the Subcommittee]. Also present: Senators Cranston and Murphy [both Senators from California]. THEN NANCY GAVE THE TEXT OF CHUCK'S SPEECH TO THE SENATE SUBCOMMITTEE Nancy concluded by noting that others have sent the following information on Chuck C.: He was born in 1902, and got sober in A.A. in January 1946. He wrote a book called "A New Pair Of Glasses" which is a transcript of a retreat he gave for alcoholics in 1975. The Preface is written by Clancy I. of California. It can be purchased through New-Look Publishing Co., 1960 Fairchild, Irvine, CA 92715. His son [Richard] became a famous actor. Chuck died in 1984. - - - - From: "J. Lobdell" (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) His son, the actor [George] Richard Chamberlain, is still alive and active at 77 -- perhaps you could talk to him. I don't recall if his autobiography Shattered Love (2009) has anything on his father. The well-known AA speaker Johnnie H (Long Beach) has pretty detailed recollections of Chuck (who indeed came up several times in a conversation we had at breakfast last month). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7493. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Chuck Chamberlain (and Mercedes McCambridge) From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/24/2011 10:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Nancy Olson mentions Mercedes McCambridge's testimony on page 43 of her book, but doesn't give the actual text of McCambridge's speech. See Nancy Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of Alcoholism, page 43. http://hindsfoot.org/nomem1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html Nancy says however that the full text of all the testimony can be found at: Hearings before the Senate Special Subcommittee on Alcoholism and Narcotics, of the Committee on Labor and Public Welfare, _Examination of the Impact of Alcoholism_, 91st Congress, 1st session, 1969, and it looks like it's going to be located in pages 27-35 or shortly thereafter. I'm not sure where these volumes will be archived in Washington D.C. -- probably the Library of Congress -- and if not there, their reference librarians will know where they are stored. Glenn Chesnut South Bend, Indiana - - - - Original message from: "Dolores" Hi, is there a record of the hearing of Mercedes McCambridge before Congress about the Senator Hughes act of Congress, which brought the treatment centers to the US Military in the then Western Germany? Dolores IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7494. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the term recovered alcoholic From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/24/2011 10:25:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Did Bill W ever call himself a recovered alcoholic? "Marty (Mann) ... felt strongly that AAs should refer to themselves as recovered, not recovering. Bill Wilson firmly advocated the use of recovered, too. For these two pioneers, recovered meant ' I'm well today'- recovering meant 'I'm still sick'." (The biography of Marty Mann: The first lady of Alcoholics Anonymous; Sally and David Brown; Hazellden; 2001) I read that Bill would introduce himself, "Hi, I'm Bill - I'm a drunk." (He also used the expression "rumhound"). - - - - From Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) Marty Mann was Nancy Olson's sponsor when Nancy was serving as an aide in the U.S. Senate (this is the Nancy Olson who founded the AAHistoryLovers), and Nancy told me that Marty told her that "recovered alcoholic" was the preferred term back in the early days of AA. Nancy's own research, she told me, convinced her that this was correct. So Nancy Olson supported Sally and David Brown's account of Marty's position on this issue. On the other hand, Marty Mann was the one who backed and supported Bill Swegan when Bill was starting the first officially sanctioned AA-based alcoholism treatment programs in the U.S. military. Bill was trained by Marty, Dr. Jellinek, and Sister Ignatia. And when I asked Bill Swegan about "recovered" vs. "recovering" alcoholic, Bill basically felt that this was a silly and useless dispute about something that never in fact got anybody sober or drunk (either one), and that which term you used depended on the particular point you were trying to make. He didn't want to get involved in a dispute over what term you used. Either one was all right IF you understood what it meant about your situation and what you ought to be doing. Bill, who obtained a fully documented 50% success rate in his treatment program at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas, felt that arguing about the words you used to introduce yourself at meetings and that kind of thing was simply silly. That wasn't what enabled people to quit drinking and start learning how to find some real happiness in life. So perhaps we should remember Bill Swegan's warning, as well as remembering what Marty Mann's own personal preference was. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7495. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Reading in early AA From: Paul . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/29/2011 9:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn, I see at http://hindsfoot.org/AkrMan2.html the following: "The following literature has helped many members of Alcoholics Anonymous. Alcoholics Anonymous (Works Publishing Company). The Holy Bible. The Greatest Thing in the World, Henry Drummond. The Unchanging Friend, a series (Bruce Publishing Co., Milwaukee). As a Man Thinketh, James Allen. The Sermon on the Mount, Emmet Fox (Harper Bros.). The Self You Have to Live With, Winfred Rhoades. Psychology of Christian Personality, Ernest M. Ligon (Macmillan Co.). Abundant Living, E. Stanley Jones. The Man Nobody Knows, Bruce Barron." And then I also see the (editorial) parenthetical: ("The Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7, the letter of James, 1 Corinthians 13, and Psalms 23 and 91 were all mentioned earlier in the pamphlet...") However, I don't "get" *from* the editorial (the fact that a commentator observes that such-and-such were "all mentioned earlier") *to* "the A.A. leaders were increasingly recommending that newcomers only read a small selection of biblical passages deliberately chosen because they did not speak about the divinity of Christ..." w/o other historical context. My apologies, but based solely on AkrMan2, I just don't have enough information. Surely there are other historical indicators, besides? Furthermore, were A.A. leaders increasingly recommending that newcomers only *read* a bowdlerized version of the Bible? I suppose a more pleasant expression would be: reading a select portion of scripture? Or was their desire that they *learn* and *know* this (portion)? I suppose that begs the question: what about "more experienced" members? Were they "encouraged" (at all) to read the "unabridged?" It seems at least somewhat likely - beings "The Holy Bible" is mentioned (backseat of) "Alcoholics Anonymous (Works Publishing Company)" in AkrMan2. These questions may seem naive, or even blunt, so my apologies in advance, but I think they're fair questions, to which I honestly don't know the answer(s). I'm almost "afraid" to ask about the Clarence Snyder's "Going Through the Steps." Of course that document explicitly mentions Jesus as "our new manager," amongst other things...a bit tangled, because, well, a) if Clarence isn't regarded as an "AA leader" (in historical terms [at the time of that document]), then no problem, but b) if Snyder was a bonafide AA leader, then it's a bit difficult to fathom someone embracing a Christ figure, *lacking* in divinity as a very likely "manager." The other thing that strikes me about the document is that it's author is, in his STEP EIGHT, preoccupied with "person[s] involved with the occult." Huh? ========================================== "Going Through The Steps" by Clarence Snyder AAHistoryBuffs Message #1031 May 2, 2002 "Lash, William (Bill)" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/message/1031?source=1&var=1 Going Through The Steps By Clarence Snyder Before beginning the steps the sponsor must first qualify the person who has requested to follow the path. Find out if they really are alcoholic and, just as important, if YOU feel that they willing and ready to go to any lengths to change their lives and not drink forever. (Page 142, Big Book: "Will he take every necessary step, submit to anything to get well, to stop drinking forever?") Ask your prospect 3 qualifying questions: (1) Do you think you have a drinking problem? (2) Do you want to do anything about the problem? (3) What are you willing to do about it? If you get the answers: (1) yes, (2) yes, and (3) anything, and you feel that the person is ready to follow directions without question, you both are ready to continue all the way. If you feel that they are not ready, tell them so and go on to the next person. (Page 96, Big Book: "To spend too much time on any one situation is to deny some other alcoholic an opportunity to live and be happy.") The program and your own recovery are not dependent upon winning friends and influencing people. If you feel that they are ready, then you start. There are five phases to the Steps: 1. STEP 1: ADMISSION, 2. STEPS 2 and 3: SUBMISSION, 3. STEPS 4, 5, 6, and 7: CONFESSION, 4. STEPS 8 and 9: RESTITUTION, 5. STEPS 10, 11 and 12: THE LIVING STEPS, CONSTRUCTION AND MAINTENANCE STEP ONE: Who's boss -- them or the alcohol? (The above qualification should pretty much answer the first half of the step)…That our lives had become unmanageable, not only our drinking -- all phases of our existence were and are unmanageable. It stands to reason that if we can't manage our lives and we are acting in a manner that is not very sane (unmanageability is not sane living) then we have to take… STEP TWO: Come to believe that a power GREATER than ourselves, something other than us can manage our lives. A power that can bring sanity back to the way we live. Who are we to believe that WE are the greatest? When we did Step 1, we admitted that we couldn't manage our own lives. When we took Step 2, we said that someone greater than us could manage us and restore us. We needed new to have a new manager, a living, loving God. STEP THREE: We made the decision that we needed to come under new management since our own management got us nowhere. So we turn our wills and lives over to the care of our new manager -- Jesus. He will take care of us and manage our lives since we admitted in Step 1 that our lives were unmanageable, and in Step 2, that He could restore us to a manageable state and sanity. At this point both of you get down on your knees… Both on knees, the sponsor says: "Jesus, this is ___(name)____, he is coming to You in all humility to ask You to guide and direct him. ______(name)_____realizes that his life is messed up and unmanageable. _____(name)_____ is coming to You Lord in all humility to ask to be one of your children -- to work for you, to serve and dedicate his life to You and to turn his will and life over that he may be an instrument of Your love. Person repeats after sponsor: "Lord, I ask that You guide and direct me, and that I have decided to turn my will and life over to You. To serve You and dedicate my life to You. I ask all this in the name of Jesus Christ. I thank you Lord; I believe that if I ask this in prayer, I shall receive what I have asked for. Thank you Jesus. Amen." Now that we have gone under new management, we believe what it says in the Big Book at the end of the Steps in How It Works: A: We were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives, B: No human power could RELIEVE our alcoholism, C: GOD COULD AND WOULD IF HE WERE SOUGHT!!!!! Then we have to take an inventory. STEP FOUR: Take a searching and fearless moral inventory. We must find out what we've got, what we need to get rid of, and what we need to acquire. There are 20 character defects to ask about -- the individual wrongs are not necessary to go over, just the defects that caused them. Going over the questions, you ask that the person be honest and admit his defects to himself, to you, and to God (where two or more are gathered in His name, there shall He be.) By admitting, the person also takes. STEP FIVE: The inventory is of our defects, not our incidents. Here are the defects: 1 Resentment, Anger 2 Fear, Cowardice 3 Self pity 4 Self justification 5 Self importance, Egotism 6 Self condemnation, Guilt 7 Lying, Evasiveness, Dishonesty 8 Impatience 9 Hate 10 False pride, Phoniness, Denial 11 Jealousy 12 Envy 13 Laziness 14 Procrastination 15 Insincerity 16 Negative Thinking 17 Immoral thinking 18 Perfectionism, Intolerance 19 Criticizing, Loose Talk, Gossip 20 Greed Now that you've admitted these defects, ask, "Don't you want to get rid of them?" These same defects caused your life to be unmanageable. How can you ask God to get rid of the THINGS you did in your past? YOU CAN'T!! You can ask to get rid of the defects, which caused you to act in the manner you did by taking… STEP SIX: You were ENTIRELY ready (not almost, not just about, not partially) to have God remove ALL (not some) of these defects. He cannot remove things that have already happened. You are ready to get rid of ALL of them, even the ones that are fun. REMEMBER, YOU TURNED YOUR WILL AND LIFE OVER TO GOD IN STEP THREE. Now comes… STEP SEVEN: On your knees you ask that these defects be removed, these shortcomings listed in your inventory… Both on knees, the sponsor says: "Lord, here is your child, ____(name)___. He is coming to you in all humility to humbly ask your forgiveness, believing that anything he asks in prayer, he humbly shall receive. Person repeats after sponsor: "I, ___(name)___, humbly ask you oh Lord, to remove my shortcomings and forgive me, my sins and trespasses, and ask in all humility that you will remove my defects and shortcomings because I am one of your children and I truly believe. Thank you Jesus, Amen." Sponsor: "Your sins are removed in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." Both: "Thank you Jesus, Amen." STEP EIGHT: You make a list of all persons you have harmed, starting with yourself, family, friends, employers, employees, etc. If the person was involved in the occult, God's forgiveness must be asked. We discuss briefly this list, and ask if they are willing to make restitution and amends. (Since the sponsor is boss - you really don't ask… it is assumed.) Then restitution is made to all as soon as possible, except in certain instances where it is turned over to God. They will have done STEP NINE: by making restitution. After doing these 9 steps, your slate is wiped clean. You are reborn as it says in the Big Book on page 63, "We were reborn." II Corinthians 5:17 says, "Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, all things are made new! STEP TEN: We continued to take personal inventory every night: did you harm anyone, have you done something wrong? Do you deserve a gold star or a black mark? You ask forgiveness honestly, and all is forgiven by the Lord -- clean slate. When you are wrong, promptly admit it. When you don't, use the inventory at night to do so. Deal with your life by the four absolutes: ABSOLUTE LOVE, ABSOLUTE HONESTY, ABSOLUTE UNSELFISHNESS, and ABSOLUTE PURITY. Did you act out of Love? Were you honest? Were you unselfish? Were your motives pure? All things must be based on these four things… STEP ELEVEN: Prayer is talking to God -- meditation is listening to Him. Pray, go to church, read the bible, read the Big Book. Get to know the Word of God so that you will understand it when you meditate. Thy will, not mine, be done!!!! STEP TWELVE: A spiritual awakening is THE RESULT of working, doing, and LIVING, ALL of the 12 Steps! Then you have this message to carry to others. There is no message unless you have done the first 9 Steps and are living the last three. You can't give what you don't have. You must practice these principles in ALL your affairs. Now it is your responsibility to give this message to others as you have received it. Not changed, watered down, or how others may want it in their lives. If they want what you have, they must do what you did. It is now your legacy to hand down, AS IT WAS GIVEN TO YOU -- NO OTHER WAY!!!! It is recommended that two people work with the newcomer through the steps whenever possible, so that both may learn as well as give. There is no easier, softer way -- this is it. This is the PROGRAM OF RECOVERY as it was in the 1930's in Ohio, as Dr. Bob gave it. You can and DO recover, you don't have to stay sick -- you can and do get WELL!!! This is the solution; this is HOW IT WORKS. Don't trudge the Happy Road to Recovery; walk with your head high, knowing that through you, God will help others to RECOVER as you have. May God bless and be with you. ========================================== So what did I just *do*? Naturally, looked up references to Snyder/Cleveland in Kurtz' *N-G*. Kurtz says: "The early Cleveland experience of AA was different, at times weirdly so..." Forgive the indulgence, but I think Ernie may have hit the nail on the head. ~~~ Aside: could that/those "person[s] involved with the occult" be none other than Robert Holbrook Smith and William Griffith Wilson? Is it possible, that in the conception of this document, the author was making a (veiled or otherwise) jab at a person or persons aggrieved, i.e., making an "*actual* list of all persons" [occultists]? Buchmanism could be regarded as "cult" but not "occult." And didn't Snyder "believe" in the Oxford Group tenements more than anything? We're familiar with Wilson's (and to some extent Dr. Bob's) Ouija board sessions, seances, spook room, clairvoyance, &tc &tc, so there's no point kicking up dust. But it seems, although I'd read it elsewhere - several places - that Clarence S. really did have it in deep for Bill W., if not Dr. Bob - it's in Snyder's letters - but for his "resentment" to get so far as "even into his pamphlet" surprises... ~~~ Can someone answer this? Was the reference to "person[s] involved with the occult" in the Cleveland pamphlet aimed directly at Bill W.? And is this (part of) the reason why Snyder may not be regarded (historically - by historians) as an "[early] AA leader?" Perhaps "rogue leader" is more apropos? And so how "rogue" exactly *is* "traditionalist AA" a la Travis? For instance, it seems, to me, that "Quiet Time" types of AA, for instance, are still, to this day, active in virtually all geographic quarters, all over the United States. There is AA "literature" (typewritten and photocopied) in Kansas City, for instance, pertaining to "listening to what God says to you and writing it down [I'm paraphrasing]" in limited distribution. I wish I still had one of these so-called pamphlets. I could track one down, for sure...Ernie, we're still curious about early reading in AA, seriously, what they were asked to read, and why they were asked to do so. Hopefully, none of this has strayed too far. Best, Paul PS, (working from memory), Glenn is talking about (new AA members) detoxing at St. Thomas (w/r/t Dr. Bob's patients). Just to be clear, "By 1939 the A.A. leaders were increasingly recommending that newcomers only read a small selection of biblical passages..." refers to "recommending to *those patients.*" I guess I'm also asking about the broader scope of eventual influence on early AA en toto - because the implication, one can presume, is that the specific Akron practices started to set an overall trend - that roughly culminated circa Twenty-Four Hours a Day in 1948. And by that time, I'm assuming, Clarence Snyder had lost most "legitimacy" as an AA leader, enough so, that posterity regards him as "rogue," at least to some degree and w/o any significant "negative" connotation. Sorry about all that, but in retrospect, realizing all that, it's why (motivates why) I'm semi-habitually "thinking out loud," which may seem like blathering. Hopefully not. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7496. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Reading early AA, Clarence Snyder, Going Through Steps From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/24/2011 11:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Responding to Message No. 7495 from "Paul" (spectrumptg at yahoo.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7495 My question here is, did Clarence Snyder himself actually write "Going Through the Steps," and if so, WHEN did he write this piece? It is well documented that Clarence was talking this way by the end of his life -- Mitchell K., for example, spoke at Jared Lobdell's AA history and archives conference in Pennsylvania one year and told how Clarence had sponsored him this way, requiring him to pray to Jesus. But I have heard speculation (from Mitchell too, if I remember correctly) that Clarence did not turn into a conservative evangelical Christian of this sort until he married his last wife, whom Dick B. and others have described as a woman with very conservative Pentecostal leanings. So if Clarence did write this little piece fairly late in his life, were the references to Jesus a retrospective distortion? Or at least misleading, in the sense of giving the impression that prayers to Jesus of this sort were standard and required practice in Akron throughout the early AA period? Clarence (or whoever wrote this) does say in this little piece that <> But the first problem is, do we have any other corroborative evidence showing that this was in fact the case? I can remember one place in Dr. Bob and the Good Oldimers where one early Akron AA member (during the 1930's) was telling another early Akron AA member that "Jesus was sitting right there on the arm of his chair." In the Upper Room, the prayers were addressed to Jesus (instead of God the Father) around half the time, and to the best of our knowledge, nobody in Akron objected to Anne Smith reading (and praying) from the Upper Room. The second problem I see is that this little piece says that people in AA were praying to Jesus on many occasions during the 1930's. It does NOT say that they were still frequently praying to Jesus AFTER 1939, when the great negotiation took place, resulting in "God as we understood Him" replacing not only the word "Jesus" but any other extremely explicit Christian language. But once AA people start writing AA literature and prayers for other AA people, the references to Jesus seem to me to drop out very quickly, beginning with the Big Book itself in 1939, and continuing with the Akron pamphlets, the Tablemate, the Little Red Book, the 24 Hour book, and so on. (The only place I can see where frequent use of fairly explicitly Christian language continues -- that is, in AA literature written by AA members for other AA members -- is in the writings of the Catholic priest Ralph Pfau -- "Father John Doe" -- i.e. the Golden Books and his other writings.) - - - - But at any rate, here is what the pamphlet ascribed to Clarence Snyder (date unknown) says about Jesus and the Trinity. How many other references can people find to Jesus in early AA literature written by AA members for other AA members? In his description of how to work Step Three, he says that in this step <> And then in Step Seven, Clarence invokes not only Jesus but also the doctrine of the Trinity: <> In Step Nine, Clarence says we become Born Again Christians after completing this step: <> IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7497. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the term recovered alcoholic From: Toto24522@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/24/2011 7:27:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a message dated 7/24/2011 10:53:46 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jennylaurie1@hotmail.com writes: Did Bill W ever call himself a recovered alcoholic? Read the Big Book. Starting with the title page. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7498. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What and where is Dr Bob''s tattoo? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/24/2011 12:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have seen a photo of said tattoo, but I can't remember where. IIRC, it was taken at one of the famous Minnesota fishing expeditions that Ed Webster organized. He is shirtless or just has an undershirt. The tattoo was very elaborate for the time. Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7499. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Reading in early AA From: caligari . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/3/2011 8:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The early "Akron reading list" most certainly gives an indication of the direction that this segment of the fellowship thought would be most beneficial to the newcomer. I think Paul raises an interesting question when asking, in response to your post "What ….helps determine the …. trajectory of the (various) wings of AA?" I believe a sensitivity to initial conditions is quite important in understanding what shapes the forces that propel them. The question then becomes "How far back do we go?" Bill Wilson stated that "the first link in the chain of events that led to the founding of Alcoholics Anonymous" was the (last?) conversation between Carl Jung and Roland Hazard. This conversation involved an alcoholic and the founder of Analytical psychology. Jung told Roland that there was nothing more he could do for his patients alcoholism. He then pointed Roland in the direction of a "spiritual or religious experience" in order to provide the needed change. This physician was a man that explored the area between science and spirituality his entire life . Jung stated "What appealed to me in science were the concrete facts and their historical background, and in comparative religion the spiritual problems, into which philosophy also entered. In science I missed the factor of meaning; and in religion, that of empiricism." To my mind, this is, and has always been, the focus of the various schools of thought in AA i.e., how to BEST light a path to the spiritual. I could not agree more with Glenn's comment that "There is no way that a historian who is not deeply familiar with the principles of the Enlightenment can understand A.A. at all." I also agree with Jonathan Israel that the enlightenment involved ideas that themselves caused change. Individual liberty, freedom of thought and expression with the resultant freedom from dogma and ignorance are themselves things that cause change. These are ideas that AA has embraced full force e.g.s the suggestive language of the big book and the third tradition. At the same time it has also embraced, to an equal degree, the need for "a higher understanding" i.e. spiritually. The former being in service of the latter. In my mind it places AA squarely in that middle ground between to two. It is perhaps the first "organization" to do so, and these are the two forces that TOGATHER determine the trajectory of the various schools of thought within it and that did so from the very beginning …. or even before. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7500. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Reading in early AA From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/1/2011 11:42:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Moderator had posted and clarified an earlier post as follows: RESPONSE TO THIS LAST QUESTION FROM GLENN C: > > when I said "By 1939 the A.A. leaders were increasingly recommending that newcomers only read a small selection of biblical passages deliberately chosen because they did not speak about the divinity of Christ or contain any notion that people had to pray to Jesus or rely upon his death and resurrection to save them," > > I was definitely including Akron AA, see the old Akron Manual called "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous," which was handed out to newcomers when they were checked into the hospital for detoxing. The Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7, the letter of James, 1 Corinthians 13, and Psalms 23 and 91 were the specific parts of the Bible which they were told to read in the original version of the pamphlet. See http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html (about the middle of the page). The Akron Manual Pamphlet that I have does not seem to limit at all the reading of the Bible to a "small selection" of passages and instead on page 8 suggests the reading of these passages specifically because they were written "with you in mind". To the contrary the pamphlet says several time words to the effect of "Read the Bible" and describes it, along with the big book, this pamphlet and other pamphlets as "proper literature" that should be read and re-read! The last paragraph interestingly enough seems to suggest that the Big Book is second to the bible. In the suggested reading at the end of the pamphlet is the book Abundant Living by E. Stanley Jones. If not mistaken, this book was first published in 1942 which seems to cast doubt on the Akron Manual pamphlet being produced in 1939, 1940 or even 1941 as many seem to think. The suggested book by Ernest Ligon appears to have been first published in 1946 adding a little more confusion to the actual pamphlet date. So perhaps these "early" pamphlets are not so early. FYI The page numbers below refer to my .pdf copy and may not correspond with the actual pamphlet numbers as currently reproduced. This pamphlet is available from Akron Intergroup along with the other three "early" Akron pamphlets. God Bless John B From The Akron Manual - (date unknown) The booklet should be read in conjunction with the large book, Alcoholics Anonymous, the Bible, the daily lesson, any other pamphlets that are published by the group, and other constructive literature. A list of suggestions will be found in the back pages of this pamphlet. – p.2 You should make it a point to supply your patient with the proper literature -- the big Alcoholics Anonymous book, this pamphlet, other available pamphlets, a Bible, and anything else that has helped you. Impress upon him the wisdom and necessity of reading and re-reading this literature. The more he learns about A.A. the easier the road to recovery. – p.5 Shortly after you leave the hospital you will be on your own. The Bible tells us to put "first things first." Alcohol is obviously the first thing in your life. So concentrate on conquering it. – p.7 (C.f. "First Things First" origin in Matthew 6:33) There is the Bible that you haven't opened for years. Get acquainted with it. Read it with an open mind. You will find things that will amaze you. You will be convinced that certain passages were written with you in mind. Read the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew V, VI, and VII). Read St. Paul's inspired essay on love (I Corinthians XIII). Read the Book of James. Read the Twenty-third and Ninety-first Psalms. These readings are brief but so important. – p.8 Read Alcoholics Anonymous and then read it again. You may find that it contains your own story. It will become your second Bible. Ask your callers to suggest other readings. – p.8 SUGGESTED READING The following literature has helped many members of Alcoholics Anonymous. Alcoholics Anonymous (Works Publishing Company). The Holy Bible. The Greatest Thing in the World, Henry Drummond. The Unchanging Friend, a series (Bruce Publishing Co., Milwaukee). As a Man Thinketh, James Allen. The Sermon on the Mount, Emmet Fox (Harper Bros.). The Self You Have to Live With, Winfred Rhoades. Psychology of Christian Personality, Ernest M. Ligon (Macmillan Co.). Abundant Living, E. Stanley Jones. The Man Nobody Knows, Bruce Barron. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7501. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Reading in early AA, dates of Akron suggested books From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/24/2011 2:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In Message 7500, John B. (jax760 at yahoo.com) says <> ========================================= John, The LONG FORM of the pamphlet, which I put on the internet on the Hindsfoot site -- http://hindsfoot.org/AkrMan1.html -- was taken from the site set up by Barefoot Bob (Post Falls, Idaho) and I basically just gave Bob's dating of the pamphlet. What Bob said -- http://www.barefootsworld.net/aamanual.html -- was as follows: ========================================= Editors Note, 1997: "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous", written and distributed in 1940 by Dr. Bob's Home Group, AA Group No. 1, Akron, Ohio. Dr. Bob probably wrote or heavily influenced the writing and distribution of this pamphlet. Dr. Bob was the Prince of 12 Steppers, from the day he achieved permanent sobriety, June 10, 1935, the founding date of Alcoholics Anonymous, until his death, November 16, 1950, carrying the message of A.A. to well over 5000 men and women alcoholics, and to all these he gave his medical services and time without thought of charge .... This pamphlet was written and being distributed within one year of the publication of the Big Book, and the longest sobriety of the "Old Timers" (Bill W.) was only a little over 5 years. A.A. was only 4 1/2 years from its inception and the day of Dr. Bob's last drink. There were only about 800 members of A.A. at the beginning of 1940, nationwide, and almost none in other countries. By the end of 1940 membership had blossomed to about 2000 and by the end of 1941 the membership had skyrocketed to 8000. Today we number in the millions and groups of Sober Alcoholics can be found everywhere in every country throughout the world. Untold millions have found, lived and are living a sober life in the 62 1/2 years since Ebby first carried a message of hope to Bill W., a desperate, incomprehensibly demoralized drunk .... With Love and Peace and Gratitude for those early "Newcomers" and all Newcomers since. Barefoot, May 15, 1997 Barefoot Bob 18446 W Holland Road Post Falls, Idaho ========================================= An additional note to John B. -- since that time, I have done more work on the pamphlet and the reading list, and it is clear, as you point out, that the date of 1940 is too early. As you note, the book "Abundant Living" by E. Stanley Jones was not published until 1942, so the pamphlet could not have been printed by the Akron group until 1942 at the earliest. On the other hand, you went on to say that Ernest Ligon's book was first published in 1946, but that does not match what I dug up when I checked on it. ERNEST M. LIGON, The Psychology of Christian Personality, was originally copyrighted 1935. For corroboration see for example http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/abn/31/1/126/ where it was reviewed by Linus W. Kline in The Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology, Vol 31(1), Apr 1936, 126-129. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7502. . . . . . . . . . . . Dates of publication of books on Akron reading list From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/24/2011 2:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Original dates of publication of the books on the Suggested Reading List at the end of the Akron Manual: EMMET FOX, The Sermon on the Mount (copyright 1934, 1935, 1938) JAMES ALLEN, As a Man Thinketh. He published his book in 1908 or a little before. HENRY DRUMMOND, The Greatest Thing in the World. A talk given in 1887, and published immediately afterward. E. STANLEY JONES, Abundant Living (first came out in 1942) BRUCE BARTON, The Man Nobody Knows: A Discovery of the Real Jesus (copyright 1924, 1925). ERNEST M. LIGON, The Psychology of Christian Personality (copyright 1935). > > Reviewed by Linus W. Kline in The Journal of Abnormal > > and Social Psychology, Vol 31(1), Apr 1936, 126-129, see > > http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/abn/31/1/126/ WINFRED RHOADES, The Self You Have to Live With (Philadelphia: Lippincott, 1938) So far, no one has been come up with much information on the series called The Unchanging Friend which was published by the Bruce Publishing Co. in Milwaukee. Mel B. says "Bruce now seems to be out of business, although there are a couple of smaller publishing firms listed under that name. They published considerable Catholic-related material and some of it can still be found in libraries." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7503. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Source of quote: newcomers are the lifeblood of the program From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2011 2:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Message 7401 from (royslev at yahoo.com) said <> - - - - Roy, This isn't exactly it, but could have suggested the statement you are interested in tracking down. What Bill W. said here was that us reaching out to help newcomers is the lifeblood of the program. William G. Wilson, "BASIC CONCEPTS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS," N.Y. STATE JOURNAL OF MEDICINE Vol. 44, Aug.,1944. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/166 <> IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7504. . . . . . . . . . . . Date of publication of Abundant Living: 1942 or 1935? From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2011 3:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From John S., _________ Bookseller I noticed that World Cat has a First Publication date for E. Stanley Jones, Abundant Living as 1935. Cokesbury press. - - - - John, I got onto World Cat and then some other sources, and then phoned one of the reference librarians at the Indiana University campus where I taught until my retirement in 2003. After a lot of checking around, she told me that out of hundreds of copies of E. Stanley Jones, Abundant Living, in libraries all over the world, the date of first publication was given as 1942 (with Cokesbury Press) except for three university libraries, which did give the 1935 date: University of Southern California Southern California State College and one library in Japan The number of pages in the book, and the book's dimensions, were the same in those three libraries, as in the better authenticated 1942 date. I'm going to put a post in the AAHistoryLovers and see if anyone else has any information. Is there anyone in southern California who could check the actual book in the library? If a 1935 edition existed, then the Akron Manual could have been put together as early as late 1939. Otherwise, the earliest version we have of the Akron Manual must date to no earlier than 1942. Glenn IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7505. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Reading in early AA, dates of Akron suggested books From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2011 11:51:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Several years [and at least 2 computer crashes] ago, I had three distinct versions of this pamphlet. To the best of my memory, none had publication/revision dates. So the simple explication may be that the "newer" books mentioned in the reading list were added in one of the revisions after the original date of the pamphlet [39/40?], after the later published books were written [46]. In another message by Glen, he lists copyright dates for most of the books listed in the pamphlet. I don't know about anyone else, but I was struck by how 'recent' most all in the list were in respect to the guesstimated date of when the Akron Manual pamphlet was published. - - - - Glenn Chesnut wrote: > In Message 7500, John B. (jax760 at yahoo.com) says<> > ========================================= IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7506. . . . . . . . . . . . Selden Bacon From: Michael Gwirtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2011 10:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I searched AAHL past posts and a few deal with Prof. Selden Bacon. My question is, and Jared L. probably knows, "Is the Selden Bacon of the Rutgers Center of Alcohol Studies, the same Selden Bacon as the one who was the much younger cousin of RH3 (Roland Hazard III) ? Shakey Mike Gwirtz (See you at National AA Archives Workshop (NAAAW) in Helena, Montana. Also at Eurypaa II in Dublin -- Sat afternoon archives session on How AA came to Europe with Anne Marie S-G, Mike M and a video tape of Conor F and Dr. Moore recorded on the 20th anniversary of AA in Europe at a closed AA meeting.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7507. . . . . . . . . . . . Who wrote the Akron pamphlets? Evan W., Ed W., or Irvin Whiteman? From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2011 4:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 1. EVAN W ? AAHistoryLovers Message 7434, dated 20 Jun 2011, from Gary Neidhardt (morningmael at yahoo.com) Reading in early AA: the Evan W. pamphlets at Akron I'm sure you already have the folder provided by the Akron Intergroup that is provided when one buys the five standard Evan W. pamphlets. But just in case some folks here don't have that information, here's how it reads: "This historical Literature was written by Evan W. at the request of Dr. Bob. He felt that the newly written Big Book was too difficult for the blue-collar worker to read. Evan was a former writer for the newspaper and wrote "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous" in 1941, followed by "A Second Reader for Alcoholics Anonymous". These pamphlets were completed by 1950 and reflected the early mindset of Akron's earliest members. This literature is preconference and is still serving members of A.A. around the world." ========================================== 2. ED W ? AAHistoryLovers Message 6348, dated 21 Feb 2010, from Glenn Chesnut (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) EARLY AA BEGINNERS LESSONS History of the Beginners Classes: a Speech by Wally P. Then sometime prior to 1946 in Akron, Ohio the Akron Group started publishing four pamphlets on the AA Program. They were written by Ed W. [**see note at the end] at the direction of Dr. Bob, one of the co-founders of AA. Dr. Bob wanted some "blue-collar" pamphlets for the Fellowship. In one of the pamphlets, "A Guide to the Twelve Steps", it reads: "A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous is intended to be a simple, short and concise Interpretation of the rules for sober living as compiled by the earliest members of the organization. The writers and editors are members of the Akron, Ohio Group where Alcoholics Anonymous was founded in 1935. Most of the ideas and explanations were brought out in a series of instruction classes conducted by veteran members of the group." ========================================== 3. IRVIN WHITEMAN? **THE AUTHOR OF THE AKRON PAMPHLETS: perhaps Irvin Whiteman See Message #2469 from jayaa82@aol.com http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2469 "The Akron Pamphlets were commissioned by Dr. Bob but written by Evan W. an Akron member who had been a newspaper writer. Dr. Bob believed that the Big Book might be too complicated for the "blue collar" member or others with little education. The pamphlets are still printed and distributed by the Akron Intergroup. Jay M." But see First 226 Members Akron, OH AA Group http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226.doc There is no "Ed W." on that list, but there is no "Evan W." mentioned either. Could "Evan W." be the man referred to as Irvin Whiteman in that list? The names Irvin, Irwin, and so on, were regularly confused in the AA oral tradition -- see for example all the different spellings of Irwin Meyerson's name. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7508. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Chuck Chamberlain (and Mercedes McCambridge) From: James R . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2011 2:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The hearings of the Hughes subcommittee is now available online, Ms McCambridge's testimony begins on page 123: http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.%24b644206;page=root;view=image;si ze=1\ 00;seq=7;num=i [22] Jim C. - - - - Original message from: "Dolores" Hi, is there a record of the hearing of Mercedes McCambridge before Congress about the Senator Hughes act of Congress, which brought the treatment centers to the US Military in the then Western Germany? Dolores IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7509. . . . . . . . . . . . Abundant Living From: victoria callaway . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2011 5:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII by E. Stanley Jones --I have a copy of that book. Inside it says ABUNDANT LIVING Copyright MCMXLII By WHITMORE & STONE It has Preface, Table Of Contents and 371 pages containing biblical references for each reading of the day and prayers at the bottom of each page for the day and then after going thru the year with 52 weeks, a reading each day of the week it has a section called "Special Meditations" which follows the year's readings. I use it from time to time. Hope this helps with information. Blessings vicki callaway IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7510. . . . . . . . . . . . How AA came to Europe From: Dolores . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2011 4:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, I sure would like to hear about how AA came to Europe. I have been doing some research and am very interested in this subject. Is it possible to get a copy of the information being used at the Eurypaa II Saturday afternoon archives session in Dublin? I live on the continent. I am always looking for more material on this subject. Dolores ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Gwirtz Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 4:03 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Selden Bacon Shakey Mike Gwirtz said there: <> IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7511. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Who wrote the Akron pamphlets? Evan W., Ed W., or Irvin Whiteman? From: jayaa82@earthlink.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2011 9:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Evan Williams, a newspaper writer and one of the early members in Akron ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn Chesnut Sent: 7/25/2011 4:38:33 PM Subject: Who wrote the Akron pamphlets? Evan W., Ed W., or Irvin Whiteman? ========================================== 1. EVAN W ? AAHistoryLovers Message 7434, dated 20 Jun 2011, from Gary Neidhardt (morningmael at yahoo.com) Reading in early AA: the Evan W. pamphlets at Akron I'm sure you already have the folder provided by the Akron Intergroup that is provided when one buys the five standard Evan W. pamphlets. But just in case some folks here don't have that information, here's how it reads: "This historical Literature was written by Evan W. at the request of Dr. Bob. He felt that the newly written Big Book was too difficult for the blue-collar worker to read. Evan was a former writer for the newspaper and wrote "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous" in 1941, followed by "A Second Reader for Alcoholics Anonymous". These pamphlets were completed by 1950 and reflected the early mindset of Akron's earliest members. This literature is preconference and is still serving members of A.A. around the world." ========================================== 2. ED W ? AAHistoryLovers Message 6348, dated 21 Feb 2010, from Glenn Chesnut (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) EARLY AA BEGINNERS LESSONS History of the Beginners Classes: a Speech by Wally P. Then sometime prior to 1946 in Akron, Ohio the Akron Group started publishing four pamphlets on the AA Program. They were written by Ed W. [**see note at the end] at the direction of Dr. Bob, one of the co-founders of AA. Dr. Bob wanted some "blue-collar" pamphlets for the Fellowship. In one of the pamphlets, "A Guide to the Twelve Steps", it reads: "A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous is intended to be a simple, short and concise Interpretation of the rules for sober living as compiled by the earliest members of the organization. The writers and editors are members of the Akron, Ohio Group where Alcoholics Anonymous was founded in 1935. Most of the ideas and explanations were brought out in a series of instruction classes conducted by veteran members of the group." ========================================== 3. IRVIN WHITEMAN? **THE AUTHOR OF THE AKRON PAMPHLETS: perhaps Irvin Whiteman See Message #2469 from jayaa82@aol.com http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2469 "The Akron Pamphlets were commissioned by Dr. Bob but written by Evan W. an Akron member who had been a newspaper writer. Dr. Bob believed that the Big Book might be too complicated for the "blue collar" member or others with little education. The pamphlets are still printed and distributed by the Akron Intergroup. Jay M." But see First 226 Members Akron, OH AA Group http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226.doc There is no "Ed W." on that list, but there is no "Evan W." mentioned either. Could "Evan W." be the man referred to as Irvin Whiteman in that list? The names Irvin, Irwin, and so on, were regularly confused in the AA oral tradition -- see for example all the different spellings of Irwin Meyerson's name. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7512. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: What and where is Dr Bob''s tattoo? From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2011 8:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dr. Bob had two tattoos. He had a big 32-point compass on one of his arms, along with a large dragon. - Children of the Healer. ********** We invited Bob and his wife to go down to the beach with us, and when Bob appeared in his bathing suit, we saw he was gloriously tattooed on his chest and both arms, with rather intriguing figures and snakes and so forth. My wife asked him what condition he was in when he got that last tattoo on his arm. And he said, "It was a blazer." - Dr. Bob & the Good Oldtimers page 298. ********** A tattoo he wore the rest of his life was probably from those days at Dartmouth: a dragon and a compass tattoo. The dragon wound around his left arm from the shoulder to the wrist. It was blue with red fire. His son thinks "he had to have been drunk to have it put there, and you didn't do something that complicated in a day. When I asked him how he got it, he said, 'Boy, that was a dandy!' And it must have been, too." Just Love, Barefoot Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7513. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Selden Bacon From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2011 8:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Jared Lobdell and Cora Finch - - - - Shakey Mike Gwirtz asked "Is the Selden Bacon of the Rutgers Center of Alcohol Studies, the same Selden Bacon as the one who was the much younger cousin of RH3 (Roland Hazard III)?" - - - - From "J. Lobdell" (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) Yes. Selden D Bacon was the cousin of Rowland III and of Leonard Bacon who brought Rowland to Carl Jung. Full material on this is set out in Culture Alcohol and Society Quarterly (Newsletter of the Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown), Vol. III, no. 5 (October-December 2007), "Rowland H: A Summary Sketch" pp. 7-16, on p. 11. CASQ is available on-line (enter Brown Library CASQ in Google search). - - - - From: "corafinch" (corafinch at yahoo.com) You are probably correct that Jared could explain that better. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7514. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: source of quote: newcomers are the lifeblood of the program From: gcdavid1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2011 9:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The dedication page in the front of the book "Our Devilish Alcoholic Personalities" by Ed. W., author of the "Little Red Book" has this quote. "This book is dedicated to A.A. members worldwide. To the newcomers who our the lifeblood of our fellowship and to the oldtimers who are its backbone. Ed W." - - - - NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR: Ed W. was the author of The Little Red Book (1st edit. 1946), Stools and Bottles (1955), Our Devilish Alcoholic Personalities (1970), and Bar Room Reveries (1958). He was one of the four most published early AA authors (along with Bill W., Richmond Walker, and Father Ralph Pfau). See http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7515. . . . . . . . . . . . More than one edition of the Akron Manual? From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/4/2011 1:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Further to my last post I pulled out my pamphlet copy (The Akron Manual) purchased in Akron a few years back. The cover of the pamphlet talks about men with five, six and seven years of sobriety and on page 15 states that the Akron Group has been in existence for seven years. This certainly dates this version of the pamphlet to 1946-1947 so I am wondering and questioning if there are multiple versions of the pamphlet or if it was being updated and re-released on some time basis. Certainly the copy posted on Hindsfoot (original version??? - 1939 or 1940???) can not be before 1946/47 due to its mention of a 1946 book. There are also some differences in the text of these two pamphlets. My copy lists the Four Absolutes along with the 12 Steps, the PDF copy does not. Just a clarification to my previous post; I do not dispute Glenn's suggestion that AA was increasingly steering the new comers away from the necessity of First Century Christianity and Jesus as "The Solution" (Principles before Personalities) that is a fact, but I don't believe the new comers were told to read "only" certain passages of the Bible. The Bible, New Thought Books and other helpful literature (often Christian) continued to be suggested to newcomers and members of the fellowship for many years. God Bless John B IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7516. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: More than one edition of the Akron Manual? From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2011 1:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII John, Ernest M. Ligon, The Psychology of Christian Personality, was first published in 1935, not 1946. So there is no reference in the Akron Manual to anything as late as 1946. The overwhelming majority of libraries around the world say that E. Stanley Jones' Abundant Living was first published in 1942 (although three library catalogs mention an earlier 1935 edition, which we are checking out). But for now, let's go with the 1942 date. You say that <> Dr. Bob and Bill Dotson both got sober in June 1935, which meant that they would have had seven years of sobriety in June of 1942, not 1946 or 1947. Likewise, the Akron Group would have been in existence for seven years in June 1942, not 1946 or 1947. ______________________________ There are at least two editions of the pamphlet currently available. TO COMPARE THE TWO DIFFERENT VERSIONS, word by word, go to: http://hindsfoot.org/akrman3.pdf SHORTER VERSION: The version presently being sold by the Akron intergroup is labeled the "sixth revised edition" according to Bent Christensen (bent_christensen5 at yahoo.com), who has been working at making it available to the AA's in Denmark. LONGER VERSION: A longer version was posted on the internet by Barefoot Bob (Post Falls, Idaho) in 1997: http://www.barefootsworld.net/aamanual.html In 2002, Glenn Chesnut posted a reformatted copy of Barefoot Bob's version: http://hindsfoot.org/AkrMan1.html ______________________________ Bent and Glenn are both agreed that the Longer Version was clearly an EARLIER edition of the Akron Manual, based on form critical grounds and on internal historical references to detox procedures and so on. But there is no way of telling whether it is the first edition, the second edition, or whatever. That is, there could have been an even earlier version than this one. ______________________________ I should say, by the way, that we have the same problem with the Tablemate (the Detroit or Washington D.C. pamphlet) -- the original version used in Detroit, which must have been a typed (mimeographed or multilithed) handout, has not survived. But it is far too valuable, both for its historical significance and for its present day usefulness in teaching beginners, to let it go by the way simply because we do not have an original typed version. And let's also remember that the first full copies of the entire New Testament which we possess date from the fourth century A.D., three hundred years after Jesus' death. Just because we do not have a copy of the Sermon on the Mount in Jesus' own handwriting, does not mean that we need to throw out all our copies of the New Testament, and refuse to use that book in church anymore. Nor do we have the original handwritten manuscripts of Shakespeare's plays, and there is in fact a lot of controversy about the details of what words were contained in the original productions of some of his plays. But the plays are still worth watching! ______________________________ Here is what Bent Christensen wrote me: ====================================== <> ====================================== THE TEXT WHICH BENT PREPARED, COMPARING THE TWO DIFFERENT EDITIONS OF THE AKRON MANUAL, CAN BE SEEN AT: http://hindsfoot.org/akrman3.pdf The words from the LONGER VERSION (the earlier edition) are put in curly brackets and yellow highlighting { } IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7517. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: No genuine recording of Bill W. on the night Dr. Bob died From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/13/2011 5:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Charles Knapp, Byron Bateman, and Bill M (Lancaster, Pennsylvania) - - - - From: Charles Knapp (cpknapp at yahoo.com) Unfortunately, I continue to find taping companies that are selling this tape/CD as an authentic recording. I do my best to provide information that it isn't an original by Bill and I am surprised how many keep selling it. I met Bill McN in 1990 at the International Convention in San Diego and found out then is wasn't real. I have been getting the word out for 21 years. So I am afraid there are so many copies of this recording floating around, we may never get the word out to everyone and this I am sure will continue to come up from time to time. The best we can do is continue providing information to the contrary and hope for the best. Charles from Wisconsin - - - - From: "Byron Bateman" (byronbateman at hotmail.com) Please see message 743 on our AAHL site. Bill McN. posted a massage explaining the recording. It will/should put to rest any misunderstandings that somehow, any member can mistake that production as actually being Bill W. himself. There was no speech that night by Bill W., there was no valid group named "Kipps Bay Group," etc, etc. It was not meant to be misleading ... It's our own ignorance that keeps it alive. Byron B. - - - - MESSAGE NO. 743 "Bill McNiff" (securitypro at usinternet.com) "Moments" - An Evening with Bill W. I've been informed that the piece of work I wrote, and have performed a number of times, has been a source of some controversy to the Lovers of AA History. I truly regret any bad feelings that it may have caused. My intention in bringing the work forward was to help others, mostly those less fortunate, in coming to understand the genesis and the genius of AA and its two founders. Very early in my own recovery I was given the opportunity to carry AA's message into prisons, mental institutions and hospitals. I have been engaged in that activity for over 33 years, and it has been source of tremendous joy and privilege. Not long after I was involved in this work I discovered that most of the people I met with could neither read, nor write. For the most part this could be overcome by sticking to the basic framework of AA . All I needed to do was tell my story, what it was like, what happened and what it is like now, and of course, let them tell theirs. But after years of doing this I realized that they were still not getting the full impact of AA and how it developed. Especially of the principals involved. I could read to them from the Big Book, the Twelve and Twelve and all the other approved literature. Invariably, when I did this, I would see their eyes roll to the back of their heads. It just didn't do it! One day, I came upon a photograph of Bill W. at a podium, telling his story. I believe it is in AA Comes of Age. I can't check it out right now as I gave someone my copy. The caption under the photo stated that wherever Bill went he "told his story to an eager and attentive audience". I was in recovery while Bill was still alive and missed the chance to hear him speak. I've always regretted that lost opportunity. But the picture gave me the idea that Bill's story should be told, not read, and it would have a greater impact than anything I would ever say ... I wasn't much of a drunk. I told my story once to an audience in Weston State Hospital in Massachusetts and after the meeting one of the attendees let me know that "my drinking wouldn't have raised a pimple on his ass." But, I could tell Bill's. And then my Higher Power, God, gave me the break I would need to carry this off... a heart attack that necessitated a long recovery and a change in occupations. From a world traveler, I became a night counselor at our local detox. I took the job because they said I could write all I wanted ... it would keep me awake. In the next two years I researched and then wrote "Moments". The first performance was here in Lancaster, PA, Christmas Eve, 1988. The play was a gigantic flop. I had put together an assemblage of dates, facts and quotes that towards the end was incomprehensible. It wasn't Bill's story at all. Just a bunch of stuff that needed a road map if you wanted to follow along. It was AA Comes of Age in verse form... an historian's delight. But I stuck at it and got away with it because my audience, inmates, couldn't walk out. Little by little I began to realize that I only held their attention when I spoke about the two main characters and their inner actions. The audience liked them... not the facts about them... just them, two drunks that were helping each other and staying sober. That's when I decided to dramatize the events and personalities thus giving them a wider appeal. Shakespeare did it to great effect so why not yours truly? I invented a fictitious AA group, Kips Bay, that was celebrating their first anniversary. Bill W. was the featured speaker and because of his friends death, that day, he decides to tell Bob's story with his own. Everything that goes after that is the truth of AA as it was told to me or that I read at the Archives in New York during the two years I took to write the presentation. Over the years I have been given additional anecdotes that I have incorporated into the monologue. At the conclusion of the presentation I did invent a device in order to encapsulate the essential truth of AA. Passing it on! I used a hat, a hat passed from one man to another. It worked. I have performed this piece of work all over the United States, Canada, Mexico and Europe. Everyone remembers the hat. I doubt anyone remembered a date. I do not impersonate Bill W. The only thing we had in common was a few crooked teeth, our skin color and our addiction. I was born and raised in New York City, Bill was from Vermont. I'm 80 pounds overweight, Bill was a bag of bones. His speech patterns were likened to Jimmy Stewart, mine sound like one of the Dead End Kids. The play has been presented to an audience of 7,000 in Cleveland, (1992) and to four men, all illiterate, in a locked cell at the Owens Sound Prison, Ontario Canada (1996). The latter brought the most joy. It has never received a bad comment so you can imagine my distress when I was told that it was a cause of some concern to members of your group. I am very sorry that this is the case and I hope that it can be worked through. But, to borrow from the master, the play must go on. As long as I have breath I will see to it. By God's Good Grace, Mrs. Betty Ford supported the production of a video that is currently being distributed through Hazelden. Maybe you can view it and then let me know what information I present is in error, besides those previously mentioned. Not that anything can be changed, but I would like to know. Peace, Bill M Lancaster, Pennsylvania IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7518. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Can groups pay for signers for the hearing impaired? From: planternva2000 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2011 7:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From planternva2000 and John Moore - - - - From: "planternva2000" (planternva2000 at yahoo.com) I don't know what other localities, but in this area groups pay for meeting space,coffee cookies, books and pamphlets, and any other materials helpful in carrying the message to alcoholics. They also pay for cakes and medallions when members have sobriety birthdays, and chips to denote length of sobriety. Why shouldn't groups be willing (and permitted) to pay for signers when necessary? - - - - From: John Moore (contact.johnmoore at gmail.com) Local Districts, Areas or Intergroups are best equipped to handle this type of special need, and to meet the corresponding financial commitment that it entails. Few groups are big enough and have a treasury sufficient to employ a professional signer with any frequency. Any AA group is free to do so but little is accomplished unless the service is offered on a regular, ongoing basis so that the hearing impaired community at large will begin to take advantage of the service. In my home group in the 1990's we wanted to offer signing. We learned that trained signers are part of a guild or a union that requires them to charge regular fees that are commensurate with the service being provided. We had hoped to get a signer who attended our meeting to donate her services but it could never be worked out. We passed the need up the line to Intergroup and they took the project on. I have seen signing since the 1970's, mostly at conventions and workshops, and I assume it has been going on for a very long time. Would be interesting to learn about any early efforts at filling this special need. John M Burlington, Vermont 12-7-1971 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7519. . . . . . . . . . . . English translations of other language Big Book stories? From: Charlie C . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/18/2011 1:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A while back a woman I knew in local meetings, who was from Germany, mentioned that she had a German language Big Book, and that while it had Dr Bob and (I think) the other pioneer stories, she said the rest of the stories were from various German AA's and a totally different set from the set of stories in the English-language Big Book. Initially I was surprised, but then of course it does make sense. My question is, does anyone know of any place where other language Big Book stories are available in English translation? Charlie Cowling Clarkson, New York "Age is a case of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it don't matter." Satchel Paige IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7520. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Comments From: Gess . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/22/2011 3:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Re-reading this I see a confusing emphasis on method rather than goal. If the goal of the steps is to establish a relationship with a higher power which then heals us, then all the other stuff you speak of is either a way to get there or a statement of results having achieved it. Either way there is nothing to dispute or quarrel over because both the methods and results are personal. What is right action or right thinking? Are you called to Buddhism, New Age or whatever? Did you achieve the goal by thinking into it or acting into it? Are you called to a philosophical life or a practical rule oriented life? All are acceptable in AA as long as the goal is not to heal yourself but to establish a relationship with a higher power which will heal you. From that perspective your naming various ways of thinking and doing in AA isn't a problem, it is a sort of glorious statement of how open to possibilities the 12 step way is. Gess - - - - In response to Paul's comments in http://hindsfoot.org/aahl001.doc As referenced in Message #7466 from "Paul" (spectrumptg at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7521. . . . . . . . . . . . Agnostic, atheist, non-believing AA groups From: kurtzern . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2011 6:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Help, please, all? I have been unable to find any solid evidence concerning agnostic, atheist, or other such non-conventional AA groups in the fellowship's early history -- or its middle history, for that matter. Might anyone be able to help, please? The lack of this knowledge seems a strange lacuna in our awareness of AA's own story. I promise to follow up all leads as possible, and I trust that quite a few other regulars on this list will do the same. As always, thanks for your generosity with your knowledge of and love for AA. ernie kurtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7522. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: We Agnostics From: Dougbert . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/13/2011 6:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Dougbert and caligari (awuh1) - - - - From: Dougbert (dougbert8 at yahoo.com) Thank you John for the enlightenment! Do you have the definition for a deist? As a Master Mason, we believe in a Supreme Architect of the Universe. I comply with that belief as a Buddhist, deist, and Mason. Thomas Jefferson was a deist and he rewrote The Jefferson Bible, which I have read. It has a lot of common sense, that I don't think I would have caught if I had to read about all the miracles. Do we have any deist history in A.A. that is worthy of study? In Fellowship, Doug - - - - From: "caligari" (awuh1 at yahoo.com) I think John makes quite an important point about agnosticism and belief in God not being contradictory. I only wish I could post the link for the proof of God's existence. If I find it I will post. In the mean time I did find one apparent exception to the notion that all believers are agnostics. You can find it in the YouTube video "Face to face with Carl Jung - Part 1 of 4" at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLJsiQ4h3fY At the eight minute mark pay close attention to the look on his face when he gives his answer to the question "Do you now believe in God?" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7523. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: English translations of other language Big Book stories? From: Lee Carroll CPA . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2011 6:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Not quite an exact reply, but along this thread, the Australian Big Book, though written in English (with color spelled "colour" etc), has Australian stories in the back. Lee Lee Carroll, CPA (805) 938-1981 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7524. . . . . . . . . . . . No genuine recording of Bill W. on the night Dr. Bob died From: Doug B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2011 8:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Actually .... back in the day ... there WAS a group named the Kipps Bay Group in New York. Doug B. www.aahistory.com - - - - > > MESSAGE NO. 743 > > "Bill McNiff" > (securitypro at usinternet.com) > That's when I decided to dramatize the events and personalities thus giving > them a wider appeal. Shakespeare did it to great effect so why not yours > truly? I invented a fictitious AA group, Kips Bay, that was celebrating > their first anniversary. Bill W. was the featured speaker and because of his > friends death, that day, he decides to tell Bob's story with his own. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7525. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Reading in early AA From: Dougbert . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/24/2011 4:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear AA History Lovers, I see the reading list omits one of the key figures in early alcoholism treatment. We read the phrase: "Half measures avail us nothing." But Bill W. did not give recognition for that quote or the other contributions of Richard R. Peabody, The Common Sense of Drinking. This pioneer was getting the wealthy sober in New York before Bill W. ever thought of Bella Dona or a Big Book. You can google a free download, and I recomment it to anybody with a year sober. And if you want to support somebody who republishes works that have lost copywrite, you can pay about $20 for a copy of the same titled: To Drink or Not to Drink - The Common Sense of Drinking, republished by Tuchy Palmieri. What makes this work so facinating is his approach to powerlessness (contrary to A.A. doctrine). Unfortunately, he died drunk. But his work was an important breakthrough in 1930. But, as we all know, science has come a long way in addiction treatment since the early days of A.A. Metta, Deep Bows, Doug - - - - I see at http://hindsfoot.org/AkrMan2.html the following reading list given at the end of the AKRON MANUAL ("A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous"): "The following literature has helped many members of Alcoholics Anonymous. Alcoholics Anonymous (Works Publishing Company). The Holy Bible. The Greatest Thing in the World, Henry Drummond. The Unchanging Friend, a series (Bruce Publishing Co., Milwaukee). As a Man Thinketh, James Allen. The Sermon on the Mount, Emmet Fox (Harper Bros.). The Self You Have to Live With, Winfred Rhoades. Psychology of Christian Personality, Ernest M. Ligon (Macmillan Co.). Abundant Living, E. Stanley Jones. The Man Nobody Knows, Bruce Barron." ============================================= POSTSCRIPT FROM G.C. -- AND FOR MANY OTHER BOOKS WHICH COULD HAVE BEEN MENTIONED, SEE The Bishop of Books, Fifty Books Tracing AA's History AT http://hindsfoot.org/fiftybk.html ============================================= IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7526. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Comments From: Dougbert . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2011 8:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Gess, I think Bill W. benchmarked his 12 Step ideas from the Declaration of Independance and the 12 Traditions as the A.A. Bill of Rights. If you think about it, the 12 x 12 does exactly what our founding fathers wanted for our nation, just as Bill wanted freedoms and rights for sober alcoholics! Doug - - - - From: Gess To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 12:09 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Comments Re-reading this I see a confusing emphasis on method rather than goal. If the goal of the steps is to establish a relationship with a higher power which then heals us, then all the other stuff you speak of is either a way to get there or a statement of results having achieved it. Either way there is nothing to dispute or quarrel over because both the methods and results are personal. What is right action or right thinking? Are you called to Buddhism, New Age or whatever? Did you achieve the goal by thinking into it or acting into it? Are you called to a philosophical life or a practical rule oriented life? All are acceptable in AA as long as the goal is not to heal yourself but to establish a relationship with a higher power which will heal you. From that perspective your naming various ways of thinking and doing in AA isn't a problem, it is a sort of glorious statement of how open to possibilities the 12 step way is. Gess - - - - In response to Paul's comments in http://hindsfoot.org/aahl001.doc As referenced in Message #7466 from "Paul" (spectrumptg at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7527. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: More than one edition of the Akron Manual? From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2011 9:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I think my brain must have been stuck in 1939 when I wrote this post. <> Sorry kids! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7528. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: More than one edition of the Akron Manual? From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2011 10:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Interesting that Wally Paton seems to think Ed Webster was the author of the pamphlets. Can anyone reach out to Wally and find out why he said it was Ed .... which by the way would make sense as Ed W was the author of many Akron works. Likewise can someone from Akron ask Gail for more info on who Evan was? Someone correctly mentioned he was not on the Akron226/Cleveland220 list(s). The Akron 226 list was transcribed by Tommy H., at that time from Baton Rouge, Louisiana (recently moved to Danville, Kentucky): http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226b.html and http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226.doc To me... this is quite "telling" as I have found this list(s) to be very accurate as well as "revealing" for certain names missing i.e. Phil Smith, Walter Bray, Harold Grisinger and perhaps others whose names are not in front of me at the moment who were on the 1938 Amos List. Seem to remember Tommy once posted on the fact that several pioneer names were missing from 226? BTW, don't remember if I posted this previously, 226 list dated to March of 1941 at the earliest (why? - Larry Jewell with a Houston Address - cf. Feb 1941 Larry goes to Houston and publishes series of six articles). John - - - - FROM GLENN C. (South Bend, Indiana) Message 7511 from (Jayaa82 at earthlink.net) says: "Evan Williams, a newspaper writer and one of the early members in Akron" wrote the Akron pamphlets. I would like to second John B's request for more information on who Evan Williams was, and what early source names him as the author of the Akron pamphlets. He did a really good job, and deserves to have his memory preserved a bit better than it is at present. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7529. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Comments From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/27/2011 12:27:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Where does it say that, "the goal of the steps is to establish a relationship with a higher power which then heals us . . . "? I thought the only, single purpose of AA was sobriety . . . Jon Markle Raleigh, NC 9.9.82 On Jul 22, 2011, at 3:09 PM, Gess wrote: > Re-reading this I see a confusing emphasis on method rather than goal. > If the goal of the steps is to establish a relationship with a higher > power which then heals us, then all the other stuff you speak of is > either a way to get there or a statement of results having achieved > it. > Either way there is nothing to dispute or quarrel over because both > the > methods and results are personal. > > What is right action or right thinking? Are you called to Buddhism, > New > Age or whatever? Did you achieve the goal by thinking into it or > acting > into it? Are you called to a philosophical life or a practical rule > oriented life? All are acceptable in AA as long as the goal is not to > heal yourself but to establish a relationship with a higher power > which > will heal you. > > From that perspective your naming various ways of thinking and doing > in > AA isn't a problem, it is a sort of glorious statement of how open to > possibilities the 12 step way is. > > Gess > > - - - - > > In response to Paul's comments in http://hindsfoot.org/aahl001.doc > > As referenced in Message #7466 from "Paul" > (spectrumptg at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7530. . . . . . . . . . . . Central Atlantic Regional Assembly: Dr. Bob and Bill W. From: planternva2000 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/27/2011 8:15:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've recently received a CD of "Dr. Bob S. & Bill W., Central Atlantic Regional Assembly, Washington, DC January 31, 1948." Can anyone tell me if this an authentic recording or another "Historical Dramatization"? Jim S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7531. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: No genuine recording of Bill W. on the night Dr. Bob died From: Mike Barns . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/27/2011 9:09:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In Message 7517 the first paragraph says: "I met Bill McN in 1990 at the International Convention in San Diego and found out then is wasn't real." The International in San Diego was in 1995. Mike Barns ____________________________________ From GC the moderator: THE A.A. INTERNATIONALS 1950 Cleveland 1955 St. Louis 1960 Long Beach 1965 Toronto 1970 Miami 1975 Denver 1980 New Orleans 1985 Montreal 1990 Seattle 1995 San Diego 2000 Minneapolis 2005 Toronto 2010 San Antonio IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7532. . . . . . . . . . . . Clarence Snyder memory From: J.BARRY MURTAUGH . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/27/2011 8:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I shared the recent Clarence Snyder posts with someone in another online AA group I belong to. Bill remembered Clarence in San Antonio TX, Jack Boland and Search for Serenity. Offered no dates. Best Regards, J.Barry Murtaugh Court Maroon, Ltd. 773-851-2100 - - - - In GratefulDeadAA@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Norsworthy" wrote: Hi everyone, The topic of Clarence Snyder brought back a lot of memories of some of my early AA experiences. I came back from Korea in 77 and was assigned to the same job I left a year before. I met my first real sponsor in Korea when I arrived there in 1976, A guy named Ken with initials KKK from Hawaii (the big island). He came back 8 months or so before I did and was assigned to San Antonio, TX. Of course our families met and got along well together and we visited each other often. Prior to that my sponsor was from Ft Hood area and attended a lot of weekends at a small place called Lake Whitney. Lake Whitney had a sign in their club house as the AA capital of the World. Between these 2 places and the people there I learned a lot of AA history as well as how to stay sober. Seems in Texas in lots of places the book "The Sermon on the Mount" by Emmet Fox was used as one of the main texts of the meetings in the early days of AA there. "Search for Serenity" was passed around between members for each to read and for newcomers.** Jack Boland was an early member there too. Later he became a Unity Minister and I spent many hours listening to him talk about AA. Me and the family was visiting with Ken one weekend and on Saturday afternoon I found myself listening to Clarence Snyder give a talk at the opening of a Treatment center in San Antonio. Had no idea that he had a story in the second edition of the AA BB. I am grateful to a Higher Power today for meeting the people that I met in early AA and establishing a good understanding of AA and how it works. Peace and Love to you, Love and Hugs, too ... _______________________________________ **SEARCH FOR SERENITY http://www.aabibliography.com/aaphotohtml/wlskd8.html says that "Search for Serenity" by Lewis F Presnall was widely read by early alcoholics members in the 1960s, copyright and published by Presnall himself 1959 UAF (Utah Alcohol Foundation) Publishing Salt Lake City, Utah, 151 pages. Presnall was the National Council on Alcoholism's first head of the Office of Industrial Services. Most Employee Assistance Program historians agree that the concept of referring employees to the EAP based on ongoing performance problems, not personal problems, originated in the late 1950s with occupational alcoholism program pioneer, Lewis Presnall. Operating a company alcoholism program at a copper mine, he was able to identify many more alcoholic employees when he trained supervisors to refer employees to his program based strictly upon performance and attendance problems. This concept took hold quickly and advanced the popularity of occupational alcoholism programs (OAPs). This led to federal funding of such programs. Later broad-brush EAPs emerged in the early 70s to respond to the wide range of personal problems employees face. Today, performance-based referrals to EAPs by supervisors remain a cornerstone of their successful operation. This principle is particularly important when performance problems unknowingly are caused by personal problems rooted in denial, or the inability of the troubled employee to identify symptoms. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7533. . . . . . . . . . . . Federal Writers Project guides to AA-era American history From: Charlie C . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2011 7:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A long time fan of this series, I happened to think of it just now in connection with this AA history group and realized I don't think I've seen it mentioned here before. The Federal Writers Project (also referred to as the American Guide Series,) was a federal government project in the 1930s, work relief for writers, newspapermen and so on. The series included a book length guide to each state, as well as for many larger cities. The guides are a rather unique snapshot of the time, capturing that pre WWII America that early AA developed in. Each guide has a general history section, then surveys the geography, economy, literature etc. of the state, and then has a fascinating section of "armchair" tours, several page tours along the then major highways. There is an Ohio state guide (Ohio Guide, 1940), a New York state guide (New York: a guide to the Empire State, 1940,) as well as a guide specific to New York City (New York City Guide: a comprehensive ... 1939.) The books are widely held in libraries, and pretty easily obtainable in used book stores, or to buy online thru sites like abebooks.com. Charlie Cowling Clarkson, NY "Age is a case of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it don't matter." -- Satchel Paige IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7534. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Agnostic, atheist, non-believing AA groups From: Thomas . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2011 8:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ernie, Hopefully this might help -- the current Worldwide List of Agnostic A.A. Meetings at: http://www.agnosticaanyc.org/worldwide.html Love, your fan, Thomas IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7535. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pamphlet entitled Partners in A.A. From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/24/2011 12:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the booklet, Advisory Actions of the General Service Conference 1951 - 2009 (M-39), page 58, the working title for the pamphlet was "You and Your 199,999 Partners in A.A." and was approved at the 1957 conference. [Apparently the title to the pamphlet was shortened before it went to press] Then on page 59, 1963 it was recommended when revised "Partners In AA" be retitled "The Group Handbook" with the subtitle, "How the AA Group Starts and Grows." In 1965 , page 60, the draft of the pamphlet "The AA Group" (P-16) was approved. Hope this helps Charles from Wisconsin - - - - Original message from: john wikelius Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 12:59 AM Subject: Pamphlet entitled Partners in A.A. I have a pamphlet here dated 4-58 entitled "Partners In A.A." Does anyone know what pamphlet replaced it? I would rather not guess at the conversion. John Wikelius justjohn1431946@yahoo.com (justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7536. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Evan Williams as author of the Akron Manual etc. From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/28/2011 9:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII EVAN WILLIAMS as author of the Akron pamphlets Henry Evan Williams Jr (b. March 1899 d. October 1954) was a son of the great Ohio (and Welsh) tenor [Henry] Evan Williams (1867-1918), who, it is said, sang his way "from the coal mines to the top of the world." Evan Jr. was a reporter for one of the Akron daily papers in the 1930s and at the time his mother died in 1944 was described as being with the Akron Chamber of Commerce. He married Fredda Slater and their only son Evan III (b. 1925) died in Akron in 2003. Evan III's son Evan IV is a lawyer in Illinois -- I'm writing him to see of he has any information on his grandfather. Evan Jr's brother Edgar Morgan Williams had (as of 2010) a surviving son Edgar Jr, in Cambridge MD, who might have known his uncle Evan, and to whom I will also be writing (if I can find that he's still alive). I think it was Edgar Sr. who married a daughter of Senator Dick of Ohio -- in which case both politically and culturally our Evan had good connections -- father a great tenor (more than 75 recordings for Victor Red Label and HMV -- including his rendition of "When You and I Were Young, Maggie" -- but better known for singing Handel. Of course this doesn't answer any questions about Evan's alcoholism (or not), but it can be a start. ************************************************* > From: jax760@yahoo.com > Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 19:21:06 -0700 > Subject: Re: More than one edition of the Akron Manual? > > Interesting that Wally Paton seems to think Ed Webster was the author of the pamphlets. Can anyone reach out to Wally and find out why he said it was Ed .... which by the way would make sense as Ed W was the author of many Akron works. > > Likewise can someone from Akron ask Gail for more info on who Evan was? > > Someone correctly mentioned he was not on the Akron226/Cleveland220 list(s). > > The Akron 226 list was transcribed by Tommy H., at that time from Baton Rouge, Louisiana (recently moved to Danville, Kentucky): > http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226b.html and > http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226.doc > > To me... this is quite "telling" as I have found this list(s) to be very accurate as well as "revealing" for certain names missing i.e. Phil Smith, Walter Bray, Harold Grisinger and perhaps others whose names are not in front of me at the moment who were on the 1938 Amos List. > > Seem to remember Tommy once posted on the fact that several pioneer names were missing from 226? > > BTW, don't remember if I posted this previously, 226 list dated to March of 1941 at the earliest (why? - Larry Jewell with a Houston Address - cf. Feb 1941 Larry goes to Houston and publishes series of six articles). > > John > > - - - - > > FROM GLENN C. (South Bend, Indiana) > > Message 7511 from > (Jayaa82 at earthlink.net) says: > > "Evan Williams, a newspaper writer and one of the early members in Akron" wrote the Akron pamphlets. > > I would like to second John B's request for more information on who Evan Williams was, and what early source names him as the author of the Akron pamphlets. He did a really good job, and deserves to have his memory preserved a bit better than it is at present. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7537. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA History tourism locations From: joe . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/27/2011 9:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Brent, thank you, very comprehensive. I just received a list from GSO that includes historic sites in the New York area. >>> It lists the 4th office as 141 East 44th (not 4th) >>> and address for 5th office as 305 East 45th (not 315). Other additions on this list not mentioned in this post or others are: >>> 30 Rockefeller Plaza - where Bill W met Willard Richardson, a friend and brother-in-law, and conduit to John D. Rockefeller Jr. >>> 334 1/2 West 24th St - the first clubhouse rented in 1940. >>> High Watch Farm, 62 Carter Rd Kent, Connecticut - an independent retreat for recovery from alcoholism visited by Bill W and Marty Mann in 1939. >>> Crowne Plaza Times Square - location of current General Service Conference from 1992 to present. *********************************************** --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Bent Christensen wrote: > > BENT CHRISTENSEN'S LIST > > Hi, I was working on it a while ago. I don't think the list is complete, maybe we can finish it together? > > Place Special note Open for public Location/ State New York > > NEW YORK CITY: > > 2nd office 1938-40, 30 Vesey Street > 3rd office1940-44, 415 Lexington > 6 years missing > 4th office 1950-60, 141 East 4th Street > 5th office 1960-70, 315 East 45th Street > 6th office 1970-92, 468 Park Avenue South > 7th office 1992-present, General Services Office & AA Grapevine (Physical Location) > 475 Riverside Drive > New York, NY 10115 > 212-870-3400 > http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org Meeting Friday at 11:00 YES New York City > > Towns Hospital, 293 Central Park West > CalvaryChurch, 21st Street & Park Avenue South Yes > 30 Rockefeller Plaza. Where Bill met "Uncle Dick" Richardson, conduit to John D. Rockefeller. Yes > > 1335 Avenue of the Americas, New York Hilton, Site of the Bill W. dinner, put on every year by the New York Intergroup since 1945. Yes > > Madison Avenue & 44th Street, Roosevelt Hotel, Site of over 35 General Service Conferences. Yes > Seventh Avenue& 56th Street, Park Omni, Site of General Service Conferences. Yes > > 38 Livingston Street, Brooklyn, Lois & Bill's home when they were financially rich. No > 182 Clinton Street, Brooklyn, Lois & Bills home where Ebby carried the message to Bill No > > CLOSE TO NEW YORK CITY: > > Stepping Stones Foundation > P.O. Box 452 > Bedford Hills, NY 10507 > 914-232-4822 > http://www.steppingstones.org *YES > > 1st office, 17 Williams Street, Newark, (ask Merton if it still exist) 22 kilometers East of Manhattan 22 mins drive > > NEAR NEW YORK: > > Ebby's grave, Albany Rural Cemetery, > Cemetery Avenue > Menands, NY 12204, 249.45 kilometers north of New York > 2 hours 49 mins drive Yes > > Silkworth's grave, Glenwood Cemetery, Monmouth Pkwy. > West Long Branch, NJ84.65 km south of New York, > 1 hour 4 mins drive Yes > > BOSTON: > > 115 Newbury St.,at the Jacoby Club quarters where the first AA meetings in Boston were held and by whom the early AA in Boston where was strongly influenced, 333.30 kmnorth of Manhattan 3 hours 52 mins drive > Richmond Walker who wrote "Twenty-Four Hours a Day" which was the second most read book in early AA lived and got sober in Boston in 1942 > > VERMONT: > > The Wilson House > P.O. Box 46 > East Dorset, 05253 > 802-362-5524 > http://www.wilsonhouse.org *YES > > Dr. Bob's Birth House in St Johnsbury, Vermont > > Bill & Lois grave > > MINNESOTA: > > 2218 First Avenue South, the worlds oldest Alano Club that's in operation today and the place where Ed Webster in May 1942 started the earliest known example of formal A.A. beginners classes. Yes > > 6301 Penn Ave S, the Nicollet Group founded by Barry C. the first sober AA member in Minneapolis and Ed Webster the author of "The Little Red Book". > > The group was based mostly on Dr. Bob's views and is still operating much like the way they did in the 40ties. > > AKRON: > > 1. Akron A.A. Archives. Yes > 2. St. Thomas Hospital (Yes) > 3. Dr. Bob's Office - Society Bank Bldg. No > 4. Mayflower Hotel (Yes) > 5. Kistler's Donuts (now S.K.) Doesn't exist anymore > 6. Dr. Bob's Grave (across from 230 Aqueduct) Yes > 7. King School - former site of first A.A. group No > 8. Rev. Tunk's Rectory - at Casterton & Edgerton Rds No > 9. T. Henry & Clarace Williams' Home - 676 Palisades No > 10. Seiberling Gatehouse - Garman Rd. & Portage Path Yes > 11. Portage Country Club > 12. Dr. Bob's House, 855 Ardmore Avenue, Akron, Ohio 44302, phone 330-864-1935, email http://www.drbobshome.org Yes > 13. King School Group - AA group #1, now meeting at First United Church of Christ - Wed., 8 PM closed speaker meeting Yes > > CLEVELAND: > > Cleveland central Office YES > 2345 Stillman Road, Cleveland Heights -- Albert "Abby" Golricks home where the first meeting was held. (Maybe it doesn't exist anymore.) > > PHILADELPHIA: > > Intergroup Office - Good but not great archive YES > > NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE: > > The Upper Room headquarters, > 1908 Grand Avenue, Nashville, Tennessee 37212 > > ____________________________________ > > *YES = Open by appointment > X = ved ikke om huset eksisterer endnu. Don't know if the place still exist. > > Bil fra Akron til New York en dag. > Fra New York til East Dorset, Vermont ca. 6 timer i følge Mel > > http://www.akronaa.org/Archives/map/map.html > > Afstande > Akron New York Vermont San Antonio > Akron 715 km > 6 timer 49 min 932 km > 8 timer 54 min 2372 km > 22 timer 40 min > New York 444,28 miles > 6 timer 49 min 344 km > 4 timer 41 min 2950 km > 28 timer 12 min > Vermont 579,12 miles > 8 timer 54 min 213,75 miles > 4 timer 41 min 3247 km > 31 timer 2 min > San Antonio 1.473,89 miles > 22 timer 40 min 1 833,05 miles > 28 timer 12 min 2.017,59 miles > 31 timer 2 min > > Lokale afstande > Manhattan Stepping Stone Silkworths Grave > Manhattan 61.80 km > 1 timer 4 min 84.65 km > 1 timer 4 min > Stepping Stone 38.40 miles > 1 hour 4 mins > Silkworths Grave 52.6 miles > 1 hour 4 mins > > 1 amerikansk mil = 1.609 km > > AAs 1st meetings > 1. Akron > 2. New York > 3. Cleveland > 4. Philadelphia > > Bent Christensen > Valmuevej 17 > 6000 Kolding > Tlf. +45 50 12 17 43 > www.synlighjemmeside.dk > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7538. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Where is Hank Parkhurst buried? From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2011 5:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The info I have is a little different. If anyone can provide definitive information that corrects this piece I would be grateful. My understanding is the chicken farm belonged to Hank, not his son. Please provide specific citations of articles you have personally seen or copies of articles that you have in your possession that state otherwise. Note that the several published works that speak of Hank relapsing in 1940, are incorrect, based on the actual entries in Lois Wilson's diary. "In the early summer of 1939 there was a falling out between Bill and Hank. Hank wanted to leave his wife and marry Ruth Hock, the secretary from Honor Dealers. She refused his proposal and Hank felt that Bill had interfered. In late June Hank and Kathleen would split up. Hank moved to East Orange, New Jersey and began to show signs of paranoia according to Dr. Silkworth. "In early September, Hank Parkhurst had returned to drinking. Bill's first sponsee, the great promoter of the Big Book and the founder of A.A. in New Jersey would never again enjoy long term sobriety. Hank would nurse resentment against Bill for the rest of his life and cause great division within the A.A. ranks in the months to come. "In March of 1940 Bill and Ruth moved the office of the Alcoholic Foundation to Vesey Street in Manhattan. Not long after, Hank showed up dirty, drunk and in a bad way. He complained that the furniture in the office was still his and Bill offered him $200 for the furniture provided he signed over his 200 shares of Works Publishing Co. to the Alcoholic Foundation. Hank, in desperation, complied. "Hank did have periods of sobriety over the next 14 years despite lengthy episodes of drinking. At one point he married the sister of Clarence Snyder's wife, Dorothy, and had Clarence working for him as a salesman for a company called Henry Giffen, Fine Porcelains. "Hank's third marriage was to a Houston oil heiress. She reportedly was the love of his life. She died leaving Hank an inheritance which he later used to remarry Kathleen and purchase a chicken farm in Pennington, New Jersey.The chicken coup caught fire and was destroyed in January 1954. The story was reported in the Pennington Post, which also carried Hank's obituary on the very same day. Hank died January 18, 1954, at Mercer Hospital in Pennington, New Jersey. Lois Wilson said his death was due to drinking. Others claimed it was pills. Some thought it was both. His obituary says only that he died after a lengthy illness." __________________________ On Sat, 7/9/11, Charles Knapp wrote: Hank's obit can be found in the Jan 27, 1954 edition of The Hopewell Herald. This is a weekly newspaper. He died on Jan 18, 1954 and buried on Jan 21, 1954. Oddly enough on page one of this same edition is an article about a fire on the farm of Hank's son, Henry Jr. The fire cased $40,000 in damage including the killing of 2,500 chickens. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7539. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pamphlet entitled Partners in A.A. From: George Bailey . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/24/2011 10:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII George Bailey wanted to share the following page with you: http://silkworth.net/aa/conference_actions.html Partners and its replacement is mentioned here, and conference approved is mentioned, plus as part of the action, conference approved was not to reflect on other literature. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7540. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: recovered vs. recovering alcoholic From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2011 2:31:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Laurie Andrews, Sherry C. Hartsell, Baileygc23, steven calderbank - - - - From: Laurie Andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) It wasn't just Marty Mann's preference to employ the term recovered for alcoholics who stopped drinking; as the Browns point out, our co-founder advocated that usage too. I can find only one reference to the term recovering in the non-story section of the Big Book; recovered is the overwhelming usage. AA's critics say, "You will never recover in Alcoholics Anonymous and AA's will tell you so themselves; they describe themselves as always recovering - never recovered." I don't believe in posthumous recovery. Chapter Five in the Big Book says, "Those who do not recover ..." Which implies that some of us do! What sort of messsage is, you will never recover, to the newcomer? I know I have recovered from "a seemingly hopeless condition of mind and body". I have been"granted a perfect release from alcoholism" (12+12, Step Six). But I'm with Bill Swegan on this - why make a federal case of it? I introduce myself at meetings as an alcoholic, plain and simple. Let's leave the nit-picking to the anally retentive. - - - - From: "Sherry C. Hartsell" (hartsell at etex.net) "We are more than 100 Men and Women who have RECOVERED from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body." The RECOVERED State comes about "as THE result of these steps" (Step 12) If/when one applies the principles to all ones affairs, those actions on our part result in an "altered state of being" , in my experience, it is only THEN, that one can honestly speak of themselves as "recovered"; which certainly does not imply that one is CURED.. Respectfully, Sherry C.H., dos 12-28-67, by God's grace and because AA works - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) It seems like they referred to themselves as recovering alcoholics or recovered alcoholics when talking to those not in AA. Bill is quoted as calling himself as a drunk at times. In the first chapter Bill W made the statement that if an alcoholic did not continued to grow spiritually through self sacrifice and working for others he would drink again. So recovery could be looked at from that angle. - - - - From: "Steven" (steven.calderbank at verizon.net) Ok, let us re-phrase the question - When speaking at an AA function did Bill call himself a recovered alcoholic? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7541. . . . . . . . . . . . Associate AA members? From: John Moore . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/27/2011 4:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Has anyone ever heard of "Associate AA's"? If I understand correctly, Associates, as they were called at a meeting I attended long ago, were non-alcoholics, spouses mainly, who were attending the AA meeting. I got sober in So California in 1971. On a road trip to San Diego with my sponsor, we attended a meeting in town. It was anniversary night and lots of couples were there, and it was an old, and large, San Diego AA group. As the celebrants were given their birthday cakes and chips, the wives and husbands were introduced too. "And here is Mary, an Associate." "Jean brought her husband Jim, he is an Associate." They were not Alanons I am pretty sure. There was much spirited discussion on the way home about this strange custom. I have not heard of this practice since, so maybe it was just that one group ... but I still am wondering. Has anyone heard of Associate AA's and know more about the subject? John M Burlington, Vermont US IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7542. . . . . . . . . . . . Alcoholics vs Addicts From: Dougbert . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/24/2011 6:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill W's story in the Big Book (pp. 6-7) Somehow I managed to drag my mattress to a lower floor, lest I suddenly leap. A doctor came with a heavy sedative. next day found me drinking both gin and sedative. This combination soon landed me on the rocks. People feared for my sanity. - - - - Big Book p. 22 As matters grow worse, he be- gins to use a combination of high-powered sedative and liquor to quiet his nerves so he can go to work. Then comes the day when he simply cannot make it and gets drunk all over again. Perhaps he goes to a doctor who gives him morphine or some sedative with which to taper off. Then he begins to appear at hos- pitals and sanitariums. - - - - http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1614 Dr. Bob's Last Drink In the video Bill's Own Story, Bill says he gave Dr Bob a beer and a "goofball" [a barbiturate] on the morning of the surgery. The same information is repeated in Pass It On, pgs 147-149. - - - - AAHistoryLovers Message 1973 In the year 1945: Bill W was called by Barry L (who would later author Living Sober) from the 41st St clubhouse. Bill persuaded the group to take in a black man who was an ex-convict with bleach-blond hair, wearing women's clothing and makeup. The man also admitted to being a "dope fiend." When asked what to do about it, Bill posed the question, "did you say he was a drunk?" When answered, "yes" Bill replied, "well I think that's all we can ask." - - - - Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe), the author of the Golden Books, was one of the four most-published AA authors during the early AA period. He was both an alcoholic and a drug addict. See his autobiography: Ralph Pfau and Al Hirshberg. Prodigal Shepherd. Indianapolis, Indiana: SMT Guild, orig. pub. 1958, now available from Hazelden. - - - - Also read the classic work, which has to be read before anything else: William L. White, Slaying the Dragon: The History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery in America (Bloomington, Illinois: Chestnut Health Systems and Lighthouse Institute, 1998). - - - - When early AA members talked about using "sedatives," this meant opium compounds like laudanum, paregoric, morphine, codeine, etc. Also barbiturates and bromides (some of the more powerful bromides could produce LSD like hallucinations). Cocaine dissolved in wine was also widely sold in the U.S. as a patent medicine. ********************************************* What kind of history do we have on Dr. Bob and Bill W. and their opinion on addicts in A.A.? What is the difference between an alcoholic vs and addict from the keepers of truth ? I saw a article on the news this week that California has recognized that they don't have a illegal limit for pot smokers on prescriptions?  So the alcoholic has always been the victim of Madison avenue advertising and marketing. New bottles, new flavors, new generations of drinkers. Status symbol for drinking the "good" stuff, etc. We also romance a drink, like the way a good Martini is presented at the table. But the law has an extremely accurate metric to generate revenue and get "drunks" off the street. I know it is an arbitrary number (.08), but the state is now struggling with how do you measure pot consumed? And what metric legally defines you as stoned? But the dopers have no romance. There is nothing sexy, provacitive, sensual, or classy about a needle in the arm of poping pills.  I ask all this because I see that people who voluntarily come into A.A. and are not addicts, tend to get and stay sober. Where as the addict really has nothing to contribute to our Experience, Strength, and Hope if the addict only talks about "outside issues," everybody is so PC today that nobody (but me) would tell them to go to N.A. Please tell me we are not allowing this for a buck in the basket?  I would love to see a history time line of events that made A.A. Letting druggies into the program would certainly be a key milestone!  Metta,  Deep Bows,  Doug IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7543. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA History tourism locations in San Francisco From: Bruce Kennedy . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/28/2011 2:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A further piece of Touristy information: THE CLIFT HOTEL IN SAN FRANCISCO On November 21, 1939, a room at the Clift Hotel in San Francisco was the site of the first gathering of AA prospects on the West Coast. They were brought together by a traveling AA member, Ray, who was visiting the city from New York on business. MRS. GORDON ORAM'S FLAT AT 51 POTOMAC STREET IN SAN FRANCISCO I might add that the first AA group on the West Coast held its meetings in the kitchen of the top floor flat at 51 Potomac Street in San Francisco beginning in early December of 1939. It was the home of Mrs. Gordon Oram (a non-alcoholic friend of AA). There is a plaque on the door post outside the building, commemorating that event. Bruce K. San Francisco IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7544. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA History tourism locations in San Francisco From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2011 5:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII BTW, this was Ray Wood. He wasn't really from New York but was from New Jersey and was a member of AA Group # 4 the New Jersey Group. Ray's picture appeared in the Saturday Evening Post article. From: Bruce Kennedy Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 2:03 PM Subject: Re: AA History tourism locations in San Francisco A further piece of Touristy information: THE CLIFT HOTEL IN SAN FRANCISCO On November 21, 1939, a room at the Clift Hotel in San Francisco was the site of the first gathering of AA prospects on the West Coast. They were brought together by a traveling AA member, Ray, who was visiting the city from New York on business. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7545. . . . . . . . . . . . Lasker Award From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2011 11:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Are there replicas of this award? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7546. . . . . . . . . . . . VOIP (Voice Over Internet Protocol) at EURYPAA conference From: Stockholm Fellowship . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/28/2011 7:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN programme highlight: The Chair of the First164YP Intergroup - the first known online/voip intergroup to be included in the AA service structure with voice & vote (as part of the Continental European Region of GSO York) - will be sharing her experience, strength and hope with online/voip AA meetings. See also http://www.aa-europe.net/meetingsonline.htm to connect with the online/voip meetings of the Continental European Region. VoIP = Voice over Internet Protocal (i.e. Skype, GoogleTalk, WebEx, Google+, Viber); an online conference call, if you will. -Jay G. Stockholm, Sweden EURYPAA is the All-Europe Young People in Alcoholics Anonymous conference, that began in Stockholm, Sweden and is hosted by a different European city each year. EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN will be held 12-14 August, details at http://www.eurypaa2011.com/ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7547. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How AA came to Europe From: Wendi Turner . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2011 6:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'll be at EURYPAA, I can do my best to scan in some of the archives for you. I'm doing the H&I Workshop, hope you can all join if you're in Ireland. Wendi http://www.eurypaa2011.com/ Dublin, Ireland August 12-14 - - - - On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 1:44 PM, Dolores wrote: > Hi, I sure would like to hear about how AA came to Europe. I have been doing some research and am very interested in this subject. > > Is it possible to get a copy of the information being used at the Eurypaa II Saturday afternoon archives session in Dublin? > > I live on the continent. I am always looking for more material on this subject. Dolores IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7548. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: English translations of other language Big Book stories? From: Jay G. . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/27/2011 9:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Jay G. and David Jones - - - - From: "Jay G." (stockholmfellowship at gmail.com) The ArenA newsletter for the Continental European Region published English translations of several foreign stories. You can download past copies from the CER website at www.aa-europe.net. -Jay G. Stockholm - - - - From: david Jones (jonesd926 at aol.com) Lee Carroll CPA wrote: "the Australian Big Book ... has Australian stories in the back." Should that read Australian stories in the Outback!? God bless, Dave IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7549. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Comments From: Gess . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/28/2011 9:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Jon Markle, Gess, Charles Knapp, Dov W, Eric, Kimball ROWE, Charlie Parker, and (again) Jon Markle - - - - Original message from: Jon Markle >To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 11:27 PM >Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Comments > >Where does it say that, "the goal of the steps is to establish a >relationship with a higher power which then heals us . . . "? > >I thought the only, single purpose of AA was sobriety . . . > >Jon Markle >Raleigh, NC >9.9.82 - - - - From: Gess (john6528 at comcast.net) In step 12. "Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps..." - - - - From: Charles Knapp (cpknapp at yahoo.com) It is not the exact quote but on page 45 it clearly states the purpose for the Big Book: "Well, that's exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem. That means we have written a book which we believe to be spiritual as well as moral." Joe and Charlie would always point out from this point on, the Big Book talks about a solution rather than the problem. Hope this helps Charles from Wisconsin - - - - From: Dov W (dovwcom at gmail.com) AA, as a fellowship, has a primary purpose. "Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety" AA Preamble AA groups have a primary purpose. "Each group has but one primary purpose—to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers". AA Tradition Six But what about individual AA members? Is AA's primary purpose necessarily the single and sole goal of AAs? The Twelve and Twelve suggests that it is not. "Only Step One, where we made the 100 percent admission we were powerless over alcohol, can be practiced with absolute perfection. The remaining eleven Steps state perfect ideals. They are ***goals toward which we look***, and the measuring sticks by which we estimate our progress". Twelve and Twelve, Step Six. According to Bill, individual AAs have at least 11 goals in addition to the First Step, 10 of which are not directly referred to in AA's primary purpose. At least 2 of these goals can reasonably be interpreted as "establishing a relationship with a higher power": *3.* Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God *as we understood Him*. *11.* Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God *as we understood Him*, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. and the last of these goals can reasonably be interpreted as stating in the context of the rest of the Big Book text that this relationship with a higher power will be therapeutic, *12.* Having had a ***spiritual awakening*** as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. On an individual level AA's Big Book has this to say of the AA who, on an individual level, has a single goal, "We feel a man is unthinking when he says that sobriety is enough". Big Book p.82 - - - - From: Eric (lessspamplease at yahoo.com) "Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps ......" - - - - From: Kimball ROWE (roweke at msn.com) I've never seen it written that AA has a single purpose. Primary, but not singular. The group has a single (sole) purpose. The Big Book has several stated purposes, however, one of them is considered the main purpose. AA has a primary purpose (not sole purpose) staying sober and helping others to achieve sobriety. (preamble) AA group has a primary purpose, to carry the message to the alcoholic who still suffers. (traditions) AA group also has a sole purpose, to stay sober through the practice and teaching of the 12 steps (Bill W, Grapevine and the pamphlet "Problems Other than Alcohol") The Big Book purposes: # To show other alcoholics precisely how we have recovered (xiii) # To provide detailed and specific answers to questions about recovery (20) # To enable the reader to find a Power greater than themselves which will solve their problem (45) # To provide clear cut directions on how to recover (29) "the goal of the steps is to establish a relationship with a higher power which then heals us" is a fair statement when you review the four purposes of the Big Book. I suppose it could have also been written as follows: # clear cut directions (steps, 29) # enable you to find a Power greater than yourself (relationship, 45) # which will solve your problem (heal, 45) - - - - From: "Charlie Parker" (charlieparker at prodigy.net) Let's not confuse our Primary Purpose as our Sole Purpose. The big book is clear that physical sobriety is not our goal. Page 19 contains a shocking statement to one who thinks that sobriety is enough when it states that "We feel that the elimination of our drinking is but a beginning. A much more important demonstration of our principles lies before us in our respective homes, occupations, and affairs." This quote from pages 49 and 50 speaks pretty clearly to the topic as well "Here are thousands of men and women, worldly indeed. They flatly declare that since they have come to believe in a Power greater than themselves, to take a certain attitude toward that Power, and to do certain simple things, there has been a revolutionary change in their way of living and thinking. In the face of collapse and despair, in the face of the total failure of their human resources, they found that a new power, peace, happiness, and sense of direction flowed into them. This happened soon after they wholeheartedly met a few simple requirements. Once confused and baffled by the seeming futility of existence, they show the underlying reasons why they were making heavy going of life.Leaving aside the drink question, they tell why living was so unsatisfactory. They show how the change came over them. When many hundreds of people are able to say that the consciousness of the Presence of God is today the most important fact of their lives, they present a powerful reason why one should have faith. Notice that the emphasis is on the "Consciousness" of the presence of God. Much different than a simple belief. It is part of our daily thinking and decision making. Beyond human aid, Charlie P 3-22-1985 - - - - Directed to Charlie Parker from: Jon Markle (jon.markle at mac.com) This is not the place to carry on the argument. But, I will say that your answer does NOT in any way set aside my question. It simply pulls out some passages to *imply* your goal. I still maintain that in all our literature, the one fact of our existence, of AA, is that we can get sober. Without that we are nothing more than some other religious organization with no more help for the alcoholic than before AA came into the basement rooms of those same churches. In this matter, our "primary purpose" is the same as what our sole purpose is. When subverted to any other, there is no AA. Jon Markle -- Raleigh, NC -- 9.9.82 "Ever since happiness heard your name, it has been running through the streets trying to find you." ~ Hafiz of Persia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7550. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Lasker Award From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/30/2011 9:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Charles Knapp, Kimball ROWE, Rick Tompkins, and rsmith77379 - - - - From: Charles Knapp (cpknapp at yahoo.com) Hey group In the booklet, Avisory Actions of the General Service Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous 1951-2009 (M-39) on page 56, in 1952 it reads "Facsimile reproduction of the Lasker Award be made available to all A.A. Groups in suitable form for framing where desire." The copy the MSCA Area 09 Archives has is a light gray parchment approximated 16' X 24 done in very nice calligraphy. It reads as follows: ================================== The American Public Health Association presents a Lasker Award for 1951 to Alcoholics Anonymous in recognition of its unique and highly successful approach to the age old public health and social problem, alcoholism. Since its founding sixteen years ago, Alcoholics Anonymous has brought recovery to more than 120.000 chronic drinkers formerly thought hopeless. Today this world fellowship of 4,000 groups, resident in 38 countries, is rehabilitating 25,000 additional persons yearly. In emphasizing alcoholism as an illness, the social stigma associated with this condition is being blotted out. Alcoholics Anonymous works upon the novel principle that a recovered alcoholic can reach and treat a fellow sufferer as no one else can. In so doing, the recovered alcoholic maintains his own sobriety; the man he treats soon becomes a physician to the next new applicant, thus creating an ever-expanding chain reaction of liberation, with patients welded together by the bonds of common suffering, common understanding and stimulating action in a greater cause. This is not a reform movement, nor is it operated by professionals who are concerned with the problem. it is financed by voluntary contributions of its members, all of whom remain anonymous. There are no dues, no paid therapists, no paid professional workers. It enjoys the goodwill and often the warm endorsement of many medical and scientific groups -- no mean achievement in itself for any organization run entirely by layman. Historians may one day point to Alcoholics Anonymous as a society which did far more than a considerable measure of success with alcoholism and its stigma; they may recognize Alcoholics Anonymous to have been a great venture in social pioneering which forged a new instrument for social action; a new therapy based on the kinship of common suffering, one having a vast potential for the myriad other ills of mankind. Signed: __W.S. Shepard ___President The American Public Health Association Signed: Ernest L Stebbins ____ Chairman The Lasker Awards Committee of the American Public Health Association ================================== The same text can be found in the program from this event. I have photos of this parchment and the actual program if any one is interested email me and I will be glad to send you photos. Please put "LASKER" in the subject field Thanks Charles from Wisconsin E-MAIL ME AT: (cpknapp at yahoo.com) - - - - From: Kimball ROWE (roweke at msn.com) For a photo of it see: http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_laskeraward_high.cfm - - - - From: "ricktompkins" (ricktompkins at comcast.net) The "Winged Victory at Samothrace" miniature is the form of the Lasker Award, and it's given out every year as the same statuette you'll see in the AA Archives at GSO. Check out the Foundation website to see the 'replicas,' they are still very beautiful. I believe that the original (2500 years old?) 8 foot tall statue is in Paris at the Louvre Museum. My question to the Group, does anyone have the full text of the 1951 Lasker Award to Alcoholics Anonymous? The Seattle Intergroup Archives does have a press proof of the scroll and the Big Book has only excerpts from the text. It was my misfortune not to have copied it word-for-word the last time I read it years ago. Rick, Illinois - - - - From: "rsmith77379" (kk500 at comcast.net) Yes there are. At least until recently we had one hanging in the AA Intergroup office in Houston. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7551. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Clarence Snyder, Going Through Steps From: Michael Gwirtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/28/2011 3:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My sponsor is Mitchell K. I sent him a copy of the recent post about Clarence. We have talked many times on this subject. I asked him and got the true facts. I have handed out reprints of "How Clarence Worked the Steps." For those of you new to AA History, remember that Clarence's sponsor was Dr. Bob. Please read Clarence's story "The Home Brewmeister" and Mitchell's excellent work "How it Worked - The Story of Clarence Snyder and How AA Came to Cleveland." The following is a copy of an e-mail that Mitchell K sent to me on the recent post on AAHL. It is First Hand information. It should answer the question posted and perhaps spawn some new ones. Shakey Mike Gwirtz ================================================ MITCHELL K's e-mail which he sent to Shakey Mike: ================================================ The origins of the "Going Through The Steps Pamphlet." The authorship of this pamphlet has been attributed to Clarence Snyder for many years. Clarence's devotees swear, as God fearing Christians that Clarence wrote it despite knowing the truth and ignoring the truth. When Clarence took me through the Steps during the weekend of April 4, 1981 it happened so fast that I really didn't think I remembered much. Clarence directed me to work with others as he had worked with me. Soon after he and Grace went home, I began jotting down notes about what the process was. I called him, we spoke and he reviewed my notes over the phone. After several days I was finished writing it all down and adding my comments to enhance and explain the process so as not to have it watered down in any way. Clarence agreed with my comments and the finished text. He asked me to send him a copy of my typewritten format for him to have. The format was a reminder for me to remember what had transpired while going through the steps as I had remembered it. It was to be passed on to those I took through the steps so that the process wouldn't be watered down. It was a helpful hint for those doing the work with others. It was never meant to be a pamphlet, published and never meant to be used to mislead people into thinking Clarence actually authored it. When the pamphlet came out I called Clarence's devotees and explained the history of the typewritten pages. I told them how and why they were written. Yet, they told me that Clarence had written it and that I lied and that they were going to continue to publish it as is. There are several people, still sober today who were recipients of the original typewritten document given to them by me after I took them through the steps. Several people who also helped me with the original typing from my notes. That being said, I feel as if I have to clear the air in a short format here. Prior to meeting Grace in 1969 and marrying her in 1971, Clarence, though a Christian was not as fervent an evangelical Christian as he became under Grace's influence. Over the past several years I have been comparing notes, documents, recordings pre- and post-Grace. I have spoken to many people who were sponsored by Clarence before he met Grace. I have compared the retreats I put on with him, the Camp Monroe Retreats and other early retreats and their formats and content with those which began transforming into Christian Evangelical Retreats rather than AA Retreats post-Grace. After Clarence passed on, Grace's influence completely took over and the entire format, intent and content of the retreats changed. What once was an Alcoholics Anonymous focus became something totally different. Individual sponsorship in taking people through the steps became mass group experiences. What Clarence believed in and practiced was irreparably changed and despite knowing it had changed, it is advertised as being done the way Clarence did it. I am working on writing the true story of the different Clarence Snyder personalities. The real AA pioneer who loved and believed in the 12 Steps and what AA stood for and the one who was influenced in later years into something totally different. I am using original documents, interviews, recordings of entire actual retreats wherever available pre and post 1970 and recollections of those who knew Clarence before he changed from AA Pioneer into Christian Evangelist. I am certainly not anti-Christian. What I am against is people trying to pass off something that is a lie in the name of Christianity. Trying to depict the accomplishments of the man from 1938 until 1970 as being with the same intent as from 1970 on. It will be shown that there was indeed a transformation after he met Grace and her influence changed the course of how Clarence presented things. As the years went on, the intent and content changed even more radically. When we did the retreats in New York together, the so-called "Prayer and Praise" section was announced by Clarence after the retreat was officially closed. That was to keep the religious part separate from the AA part. Eventually, the entire retreats put on in Florida, New Jersey and other parts of the country became totally Prayer and Praise and AA became secondary to saving souls. Grace even said that the main purpose of the retreats was to save souls. Clarence always told me that saving souls was important but we have to get them sober first ." ================================================ Again, What is posted above was written by my sponsor Mitchell K. It is first hand information and that is what we look for when discussing history. History needs to be factual. If anyone has tapes of Clarence before 1970 please let me know so that I can get a copy of it if we don't already have it. Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila PA USA See you in Helena, Montana ================================================ THE FULL TEXT OF THE so-called "Going Through the Steps by Clarence Snyder" pamphlet is as follows: ================================================ "Going Through The Steps" by Clarence Snyder AAHistoryBuffs Message #1031 May 2, 2002 "Lash, William (Bill)" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/message/1031?source=1&var=1 Going Through The Steps By Clarence Snyder Before beginning the steps the sponsor must first qualify the person who has requested to follow the path. Find out if they really are alcoholic and, just as important, if YOU feel that they willing and ready to go to any lengths to change their lives and not drink forever. (Page 142, Big Book: "Will he take every necessary step, submit to anything to get well, to stop drinking forever?") Ask your prospect 3 qualifying questions: (1) Do you think you have a drinking problem? (2) Do you want to do anything about the problem? (3) What are you willing to do about it? If you get the answers: (1) yes, (2) yes, and (3) anything, and you feel that the person is ready to follow directions without question, you both are ready to continue all the way. If you feel that they are not ready, tell them so and go on to the next person. (Page 96, Big Book: "To spend too much time on any one situation is to deny some other alcoholic an opportunity to live and be happy.") The program and your own recovery are not dependent upon winning friends and influencing people. If you feel that they are ready, then you start. There are five phases to the Steps: 1. STEP 1: ADMISSION, 2. STEPS 2 and 3: SUBMISSION, 3. STEPS 4, 5, 6, and 7: CONFESSION, 4. STEPS 8 and 9: RESTITUTION, 5. STEPS 10, 11 and 12: THE LIVING STEPS, CONSTRUCTION AND MAINTENANCE STEP ONE: Who's boss -- them or the alcohol? (The above qualification should pretty much answer the first half of the step)…That our lives had become unmanageable, not only our drinking -- all phases of our existence were and are unmanageable. It stands to reason that if we can't manage our lives and we are acting in a manner that is not very sane (unmanageability is not sane living) then we have to take… STEP TWO: Come to believe that a power GREATER than ourselves, something other than us can manage our lives. A power that can bring sanity back to the way we live. Who are we to believe that WE are the greatest? When we did Step 1, we admitted that we couldn't manage our own lives. When we took Step 2, we said that someone greater than us could manage us and restore us. We needed new to have a new manager, a living, loving God. STEP THREE: We made the decision that we needed to come under new management since our own management got us nowhere. So we turn our wills and lives over to the care of our new manager -- Jesus. He will take care of us and manage our lives since we admitted in Step 1 that our lives were unmanageable, and in Step 2, that He could restore us to a manageable state and sanity. At this point both of you get down on your knees… Both on knees, the sponsor says: "Jesus, this is ___(name)____, he is coming to You in all humility to ask You to guide and direct him. ______(name)_____realizes that his life is messed up and unmanageable. _____(name)_____ is coming to You Lord in all humility to ask to be one of your children -- to work for you, to serve and dedicate his life to You and to turn his will and life over that he may be an instrument of Your love. Person repeats after sponsor: "Lord, I ask that You guide and direct me, and that I have decided to turn my will and life over to You. To serve You and dedicate my life to You. I ask all this in the name of Jesus Christ. I thank you Lord; I believe that if I ask this in prayer, I shall receive what I have asked for. Thank you Jesus. Amen." Now that we have gone under new management, we believe what it says in the Big Book at the end of the Steps in How It Works: A: We were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives, B: No human power could RELIEVE our alcoholism, C: GOD COULD AND WOULD IF HE WERE SOUGHT!!!!! Then we have to take an inventory. STEP FOUR: Take a searching and fearless moral inventory. We must find out what we've got, what we need to get rid of, and what we need to acquire. There are 20 character defects to ask about -- the individual wrongs are not necessary to go over, just the defects that caused them. Going over the questions, you ask that the person be honest and admit his defects to himself, to you, and to God (where two or more are gathered in His name, there shall He be.) By admitting, the person also takes. STEP FIVE: The inventory is of our defects, not our incidents. Here are the defects: 1 Resentment, Anger 2 Fear, Cowardice 3 Self pity 4 Self justification 5 Self importance, Egotism 6 Self condemnation, Guilt 7 Lying, Evasiveness, Dishonesty 8 Impatience 9 Hate 10 False pride, Phoniness, Denial 11 Jealousy 12 Envy 13 Laziness 14 Procrastination 15 Insincerity 16 Negative Thinking 17 Immoral thinking 18 Perfectionism, Intolerance 19 Criticizing, Loose Talk, Gossip 20 Greed Now that you've admitted these defects, ask, "Don't you want to get rid of them?" These same defects caused your life to be unmanageable. How can you ask God to get rid of the THINGS you did in your past? YOU CAN'T!! You can ask to get rid of the defects, which caused you to act in the manner you did by taking… STEP SIX: You were ENTIRELY ready (not almost, not just about, not partially) to have God remove ALL (not some) of these defects. He cannot remove things that have already happened. You are ready to get rid of ALL of them, even the ones that are fun. REMEMBER, YOU TURNED YOUR WILL AND LIFE OVER TO GOD IN STEP THREE. Now comes… STEP SEVEN: On your knees you ask that these defects be removed, these shortcomings listed in your inventory… Both on knees, the sponsor says: "Lord, here is your child, ____(name)___. He is coming to you in all humility to humbly ask your forgiveness, believing that anything he asks in prayer, he humbly shall receive. Person repeats after sponsor: "I, ___(name)___, humbly ask you oh Lord, to remove my shortcomings and forgive me, my sins and trespasses, and ask in all humility that you will remove my defects and shortcomings because I am one of your children and I truly believe. Thank you Jesus, Amen." Sponsor: "Your sins are removed in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." Both: "Thank you Jesus, Amen." STEP EIGHT: You make a list of all persons you have harmed, starting with yourself, family, friends, employers, employees, etc. If the person was involved in the occult, God's forgiveness must be asked. We discuss briefly this list, and ask if they are willing to make restitution and amends. (Since the sponsor is boss - you really don't ask… it is assumed.) Then restitution is made to all as soon as possible, except in certain instances where it is turned over to God. They will have done STEP NINE: by making restitution. After doing these 9 steps, your slate is wiped clean. You are reborn as it says in the Big Book on page 63, "We were reborn." II Corinthians 5:17 says, "Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, all things are made new! STEP TEN: We continued to take personal inventory every night: did you harm anyone, have you done something wrong? Do you deserve a gold star or a black mark? You ask forgiveness honestly, and all is forgiven by the Lord -- clean slate. When you are wrong, promptly admit it. When you don't, use the inventory at night to do so. Deal with your life by the four absolutes: ABSOLUTE LOVE, ABSOLUTE HONESTY, ABSOLUTE UNSELFISHNESS, and ABSOLUTE PURITY. Did you act out of Love? Were you honest? Were you unselfish? Were your motives pure? All things must be based on these four things… STEP ELEVEN: Prayer is talking to God -- meditation is listening to Him. Pray, go to church, read the bible, read the Big Book. Get to know the Word of God so that you will understand it when you meditate. Thy will, not mine, be done!!!! STEP TWELVE: A spiritual awakening is THE RESULT of working, doing, and LIVING, ALL of the 12 Steps! Then you have this message to carry to others. There is no message unless you have done the first 9 Steps and are living the last three. You can't give what you don't have. You must practice these principles in ALL your affairs. Now it is your responsibility to give this message to others as you have received it. Not changed, watered down, or how others may want it in their lives. If they want what you have, they must do what you did. It is now your legacy to hand down, AS IT WAS GIVEN TO YOU -- NO OTHER WAY!!!! It is recommended that two people work with the newcomer through the steps whenever possible, so that both may learn as well as give. There is no easier, softer way -- this is it. This is the PROGRAM OF RECOVERY as it was in the 1930's in Ohio, as Dr. Bob gave it. You can and DO recover, you don't have to stay sick -- you can and do get WELL!!! This is the solution; this is HOW IT WORKS. Don't trudge the Happy Road to Recovery; walk with your head high, knowing that through you, God will help others to RECOVER as you have. May God bless and be with you. ================================================ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7552. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Alcoholics vs addicts -- article by William White et al. From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/28/2011 9:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill White, Boyd and myself explored some of these themes in William White, Chris Budnick, and Boyd Pickard, "Narcotics Anonymous: Its History and Culture" The article can be viewed at the following website: http://www.williamwhitepapers.com/pr/2011%20Narcotics%20Anonymous%20History% 20an\ d%20Culture.pdf [23] Chris - - - - FROM THE MODERATOR: this site to which Chris is referring contains the very important collection called the Selected Papers of William L. White http://www.williamwhitepapers.com/ "This site contains the full text of more than 200 articles, 6 monographs, 30+ recovery tools, 9 book chapters, 3 books, and links to an additional 13 books written by William White and co-authors over the past four decades." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7553. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alcoholics vs addicts -- the Victorian enthusiasm for experimenting with narcotics From: L . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/28/2011 2:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is an interesting review of a new book in the WSJ, 'An Anatomy of Addiction', that discusses 19th century attitudes (largely positive) towards narcotics. The writer leads the review with this compelling quote: "It was William James, really, who introduced me to the Victorian enthusiasm for experimenting with narcotics." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303812104576440421156784588.ht ml - - - - FROM THE MODERATOR: On the topic of alcoholics vs. addicts, read this book review in light of the changing attitudes towards drugs in the U.S. over the course of the 19th and 20th century, including the appearance of increasingly harsher anti-drug laws over the course of the 20th century, as a reaction to the almost total lack of any attempt to regulate the sale of many drugs in the 19th century. One question to ask in this regard is, how effective was either century in dealing with the social and health problems created by the misuse of mood-altering drugs? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7554. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alcoholics vs Addicts From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/28/2011 1:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From James Bliss, Jim S. (planternva), Dov W., Jim L. (Sober186), and Dick S. (kk500) - - - - From: James Bliss (james.bliss at comcast.net) The pamphlet 'Problems other than Alcohol' reflects Bill's opinions on this matter, if you have not seen it. The shorter pamphlet can be seen at: http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-35_ProOtherThanAlcohol1.pdf There was a longer one which existed but I cannot find it right now. I believe that a portion of it is reflected at: http://www.blackburn.edu/currentstudents/CounselingServicesDocuments/EPProbl emso\ \ therthanAlcohol.html [24] Hopefully this provides some answers for you. Jim - - - - From: "planternva2000" (planternva2000 at yahoo.com) First off, there is a difference in occasional use of a drug and addiction, just like there is a difference in social drinking and alcoholism. Read the anecdote that begins, "On the AA calendar it was Year Two" on page 141 of the 12&12. Then read the pamphlet, "Problems other than Alcohol" or the grapevine article reprinted on page 222, "Language of the Heart." Jim S. - - - - From: "Dov" (dovwcom at gmail.com) "Where as the addict really has nothing to contribute to our Experience, Strength, and Hope if the addict only talks about "outside issues," everybody is so PC today that nobody (but me) would tell them to go to N.A. Please tell me we are not allowing this for a buck in the basket?" I assume, firstly, that you mean the non-alcoholic addict and secondly, your complaint is about dilution of AA. Bill addressed the issue of drug addiction, and drug addicts attending AA in a Grapevine article reprinted in AA pamphlet (P-35) "Problems other than Alcohol", drawing a clear distinction between the alcoholic addict and the non-alcoholic addict. Here is an excerpt of what he wrote of the latter, "I see no way of making nonalcoholic addicts into AA members. Experience says loudly that we can admit no exceptions, even though drug users and alcoholics happen to be first cousins of a sort. If we persist in trying this, I'm afraid it will be hard on the drug user himself, as well as on AA" In practice real life is more complex than the theory as the ESH of one NA member in March 1986 in the Grapevine suggests as quoted in this Group http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7223 "I am a drug addict who came to AA in 1978 looking for help. When the suggestion that I go to AA to address my drug problem was first put to me I was puzzled. "My problem is this other drug. Why would I go to AA?" It was explained to me that AA is what works, and no one could kick me out. No one has the authority to do that. "Just substitute alcohol for your drug," I was told, "and it will work." I did that. I went to AA for a period of about four years. I learned the "passwords" that would not offend the oldtimers, and I made a place for myself in your Fellowship. I was also introduced to Narcotics Anonymous from the very beginning, but in 1978 NA had very little literature, no old-timers locally to serve as sponsors, no network of services for its groups. I went to that NA meeting to identify more fully and share more fully, and I went to AA for the substance of recovery. Those were the realities of being a recovering drug addict in the upper Midwest in the late seventies. As I stayed around and observed both Fellowships closely, I could not miss the great dilemma that was brewing about us addicts in AA. I did not take this problem personally, because I read the words of Bill W. and they made sense. The primary purpose of every AA group is to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers. As AA groups try to carry their message to anyone else, that atmosphere of identification for the alcoholic is weakened. If an alcoholic walks into an AA meeting and encounters a discussion among junkies, gamblers, overeaters, or whatever, that alcoholic may just miss his shot at the miracle. I slowly became more and more aware that I was the outsider in AA; that old-timer who got irritated when I shared about my drug use was on his home ground, and I was straining his Traditions. It has been a tough issue for us all. But what were the AA people to do in 1978? Throw us out? Even if that were possible in AA, who had the heart? "What would the Master do?" it says in the "Twelve and Twelve." Where would we go? Most of our NA groups were not part of a worldwide structure that could sustain us in recovery. In many places, the compromise measure seems to have been to just overlook the issue as best as we could and go on about our recovery. And the wisdom of the co-founder has been borne out again. Many AA groups have become a mix of alcoholics and people addicted to other drugs, and many of those NA groups' growth has been stunted. They were not seriously regarded as part of a separate Fellowship capable of sustaining recovery. The service of recovering addicts went into AA services. As addicts got some time in recovery, they became AA sponsors. The texture of the AA community was slowly drifting from a clear atmosphere of identification for the alcoholic, and the texture of those isolated NA groups was remaining pretty static. With the eighties came a vast change in that scenario. More and more recovering addicts began to turn our attention to the developing Fellowship of NA. We got busy writing literature, developing our services at every level, refining our own thinking and language for our own principles of recovery. We had learned so much from our forerunners in AA, and now we were breaking some new ground. It has been an exciting period of new hope for the addict who still suffers. And ironically, maybe it is an exciting period of renewed hope for the alcoholic who still suffers too. By going exclusively to NA, doing my service in NA, growing in my understanding of the NA message, I have left the AA groups just a little freer to focus on their own primary purpose. That is not personal. It's sound principle. Today NA is thriving. We have our own basic text, and we're in the later stages of producing a book on our Steps and Traditions. We are experiencing the kind of booming growth that AA experienced in the forties. Our world services are coming together in a way that can only be attributed to a loving God, expressing himself in our group conscience. It has been a time of the joy and pain of rapid growth for us, and we expect this growth rate to continue for some time to come. I guess I'm really saying a number of things. First, thank you AA, for your wisdom in taking the stand that you can best help the addict not by allowing us to become members, but by offering us the model of your program and inspiring us to build our own. Even though the realities of life have sometimes forced us all to compromise, your Conference and your written word never lost perspective. That vision is now bearing fruit. I also want to assure you that strong, stable, long-term recovery is available today in NA, so the days of worrying that addicts are just being kicked out into the street are over. Many addicts are pointed in our direction by AA groups adhering to their own primary purpose. A fast friendship, based on "cooperation, not affiliation," is cropping up between us everywhere. It goes without saying that these words are one member's views -- I do not speak for my Fellowship any more than these other articles speak for yours. But let's all look at these issues now from the vantage point of our best spiritual vision of the future. The time for coming to rest on this issue is finally at hand". - - - - From: Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com) Dougbert, Addicts Versis Alcoholics? Where is that from? Please cite the source for such a division in anything printed by world service. Anyone is welcome to attend open AA meetings. anyone with a desire to stop drinking may call themselves a member of AA. members of AA may attend any AA meeting. There are no rules in AA. There is no AA police force. Each group may conduct its affairs anyway it wants. There is nothing to stop an AA group from not using the 12 steps and traditions --except perhaps folly. Love and serve Jim L. in central Ohio - - - - From: "rsmith77379" (kk500 at comcast.net) An issue almost as old as AA. If I remember correctly, and someone here will probably provide the details, one or more of the early groups (I beleive in the Carolina's) started off as somewhat a joint alcohol/drug group. Obviously, today, I dare say many if not most people coming into AA have done or also do drugs of various types. That doesn't necessarily make them an addict. The BB descriptions on page 20 (moderate, heavy, real alcoholic) that apply to the alcoholic also can be used to qualify drug users. Can you be both an alcoholic AND a drug addict? Of course. But you can also be an alcoholic who abused drugs and vice versa. People need to find their own truth. One must ALWAYS remember singleness of purpose. Our program only addresses alcoholism and it must remain that way.. Since drug addiction is different in its "experiences" we must leave that to NA or other fellowships. I like the way that Mickey B (London/LA) explains it. He says that when he's in an AA meeting, he introduces himself as an Alcoholic. When he's in a NA meeting, he introduces himself as an addict. Clancy explains that when someone introduces themself as an alcholic and an addict, they, in essence, are saying that they're "different". As for the issues of drugs becoming major topics or references in AA meetings.... well, a good Group Conscience, good sponsorship, and strong meeting leaders can and should handle the problem. Dick S IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7555. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alcoholics vs Addicts From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/28/2011 1:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sorry, I believe this is the basic contents of the other pamphlet: http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa-problemsother.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7556. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: recovered vs. recovering alcoholic From: Sherry C. Hartsell . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/28/2011 12:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Sherry Hartsell, David Jones, Michael Oates, Dougbert, Mark Landis, and Larry Tooley - - - - From: "Sherry C. Hartsell" (hartsell at etex.net) As a general rule, I introduce myself as "A Member of Alcoholics Anonymous named Sherry, and as I was taught and as we do in much of Texas, FOR MY benefit/reference -point, give my sobriety date. I had not heard/thought of that classification since working for MHMR, "Anal Retentive". Thanks for the grin. Sherry c.h. - - - - From: david Jones (jonesd926 at aol.com) Page 29, para 1 says it all!!! "Further on, clear cut directions are given showing how we recovered." P.S. Do not forget to read the forward to the book, the first paragraph clearly states the books intentions. God bless Dave - recovered alcoholic - - - - From: Michael Oates (mso2941 at yahoo.com) We are not cured of alcoholism -- recovered leads one to believe that there is a cure -- my diabetes is under control I am not a recovered diabetic. I agree with those who said this is a waste of time. I am an Alcoholic that puts no other status or designations and I am comfortable here. - - - - From: Dougbert (dougbert8 at yahoo.com) Laurie, In the Forward of the Big Book it describes how hundreds have RECOVERED! The concept of powerlessness keeps us all coming back and gives purpose to the old timers who never found a life after A.A. In Fellowship, A recovered alcoholic Doug - - - - From: Mark Landis (doclandis at live.com) I for one, introduce myself as a recovered alcoholic. Because I am. Because the Big Book tells me that if I follow a few simple rules, that I will be. No Federal case, but no shame in telling the truth of my experience. There are those who under the alleged curtain of humility refer to themselves as "always recovering" alcoholics. They often continue bad behavior and use the handy crutch of "my alcoholic brain causes me to act that way". But I have found a way out. A way on which we can agree in brotherly harmony. Being rocketed into another dimension leaves no room for continuing to act in sickness when I know exactly what to do to change my behavior. The Big Book tells me to introduce myself as someone who has recovered from this fatal malady, and I do. As for what others may think, or do..... its none of my business. - - - - From: "Larry Tooley" (wa9guu at charter.net) Had an old sponsor that agreed with the early AA's. He said recovered meant we were back in the mainstream of life like normal people. We keep coming to AA to work the program and not become a dry drunk. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7557. . . . . . . . . . . . Seventh Tradition From: Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2011 12:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mahatma Gandhi argued that the voluntary organisations he founded should not even own the buildings where they were based. He argued that the best forms of non-government organisations, or what he called 'public institutions', should live in a state of financial crisis so that they be continually required to adapt to the demands of the members they served. In his autobiography he wrote: 'A public institution means an institution conducted with the approval, and from the funds, of the public. When such an institution ceases to have public suppport, it forfeits its right to exist. Institutions maintained on permanent funds are often found to ignore public opinion, and are frequently responsible for acts contrary to it. I have no doubt that the ideal is for public institutions to live, like nature, from day to day. The institution that fails to win public support has no right to exist as such.' (Source unknown). AA's Seventh Tradition (long form): The AA groups themselves ought to be fully supported by the voluntary contributions of their own members. We think that each group should soon achieve this ideal; that any public solicitation of funds using the name of Alcoholics Anonymous is highly dangerous, whether by groups, clubs, hospitals, or outside agencies; that acceptance of large gifts from any source, or of contributions carrying any obligation whatever, is unwise. Then, too, we view with much concern those AA treasuries which continue, beyond prudent reserves, to accumulate funds for no stated AA purpose. Experience has often warned us that nothing can so surely destroy our spiritual heritage as futile disputes over property, money and authority. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7558. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Associate AA members? From: Michael Gwirtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/28/2011 3:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Associate Members of the Philadelphia Mother Group included spouses, doctors, ministers and anyone else that supported AA. This included the wives of the doctors. (1940) The Grandparents of AA, T. Henry and Clarece Williams and other Oxford Group Members in Akron and NY (Silkworth and Shoemaker) would most likely be considered Associate Members of AA. As I have previously commented on AAHL, the spouses of AA Members before AlAnon were called non-AA's. Cliff Walker's wife formed the 12 steps of Non-AA before Al anon. YIS, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Going to NAAAW - Helena MT Our registrations out today And Eurypaa2 Dublin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7559. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Selden Bacon From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/28/2011 5:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here are the full paragraphs on Rowland and his Bacon cousins (from the article noted): An interesting Yale (and family) connection concerns some of the sons of the Reverend Leonard Woolsey Bacon (1830-1907) of New Haven, the eldest being Nathaniel Terry Bacon (1858-1926), who married Helen H----- of Peace Dale, R I, (b. 1861), the daughter of Rowland Gibson H-----, who had a son Rowland, Jr. (1855-1918), whose son was our Rowland. The Rev. Leonard also had a son Leonard Woolsey Bacon Jr., and a son Selden Bacon. Nathaniel Terry Bacon and Helen H---- Bacon had a son Leonard (1887-1954), Pulitzer-Prize-winning Yale poet, friend of the Benéts, whose papers are at Yale. Selden Bacon had a son Selden Daskam Bacon (1909-1992), who was thus Leonard Bacon the poet’s first cousin. Leonard Woolsey Bacon Jr. had a son Leonard Woolsey Bacon III (1894-1975), nicknamed “Breakfast” in his time at Phillips Andover (Class of 1913), who was thus Leonard the poet’s and Selden’s first cousin. And Rowland Gibson H-----, Helen H. Bacon’s brother, had a son Rowland H----- III (1881-1945), our Rowland, who was Leonard the poet’s first cousin (and Selden B=D. Bacon’s and “Breakfast” Bacon’s) on his mother’s side. From the Leonard Bacon Papers at Yale we have learned that Leonard Bacon and Helen H Bacon were involved in the decision of Rowland-III to seek help from Dr Carl Jung for his alcoholism. A look at a family biographical note on “Breakfast” Bacon suggests possible run-ins with alcohol, though that may be imagination. “During World War I he was called the ‘singing captain.’ He was charming. He chased after women. He was tricked into marrying Eileen when she falsely told him she was pregnant. She had a nine-year old son. He was a promoter, at one point selling Rubbermaid. . He never really did very much. He was always resentful that he hadn't been taken to Switzerland with the family; that he had been sent to Uncle Ned in Montana. It had been suspected that he had TB, but he hadn't understood. He died at the age of 83.” But besides the Singing Captain and the man who brought the message to Ebby T. (and thus to Bill W.), there was Selden D. Bacon, for years the head of the Yale (and then the Rutgers) School of Alcohol Studies, and the man who employed Bunky Jellinek. I have found no papers directly connecting our Rowland and Selden Bacon, but I believe the cousins of Leonard Bacon (1887-1954) are worth investigating in this context. ______________________________ > To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com > From: jlobdell54@hotmail.com > Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 08:54:47 -0400 > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Selden Bacon > > From Jared Lobdell and Cora Finch > > - - - - > > Shakey Mike Gwirtz asked "Is the Selden Bacon of the Rutgers Center of Alcohol Studies, the same Selden Bacon as the one who was the much younger cousin of RH3 (Roland Hazard III)?" > > - - - - > > From "J. Lobdell" > (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) > > Yes. Selden D Bacon was the cousin of Rowland III and of Leonard Bacon who brought Rowland to Carl Jung. Full material on this is set out in Culture Alcohol and Society Quarterly (Newsletter of the Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown), Vol. III, no. 5 (October-December 2007), "Rowland H: A Summary Sketch" pp. 7-16, on p. 11. CASQ is available on-line (enter Brown Library CASQ in Google search). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7560. . . . . . . . . . . . The chicken caught on fire -- the Hank Parkhurst farm From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/28/2011 5:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello again, I assume at the time of Henry Sr.'s death the chicken farm passed to Henry Jr. This is probably why the newspaper report the fire as being on Henry Parkhurst Jr's farm. The source for article is The Hopewell Herald, Wednesday January 27, 1954, Vol 79 No 17 Page 1. Henry Sr's obit is on page 3 in the same edition. You might be correct that Henry Sr owned the chicken farm before his death, but I just reported what I found in the newspaper. If anyone wants a copy of the newspaper email me as cpknapp@yahoo.com Charles from Wisconsin *****************************************  $40,000 FIRE ON PARKHURST FARM LEVELS BUILDINGS AND EQUIPMENT PARKHURST, SR. HAD DIED DAY BEFORE CHICKEN TOO CLOSE TO STOVE MAY HAVE CAUSED BLAZE An estimated $40,000 fire Friday night killed 2,500 chickens, leveled a two-story chicken and brooder house and destroyed a large amount of equipment on Henry Parkhurst, Jr. farm at Jacobs Creek. Firemen from the Union Fire Com- pany in Titusville, the Pennington Fire Company, and the Ewing Town- ship Second Alarmers, fought the blaze for almost two hours before the holocaust was quenched. They theor- ized that one of the chickens may have caught fire from huddling too close to one of the many kerosene brooder stoves and ignited the entire building. A passing motorist Henry Kirch- ner, Titusville, who was driving on the Pennington-Washington Crossing Road toward Pennington with his wife, spotted the crackling building and informed Parkhurst who called the firefighter. Just 10 minutes before the $30,000 edifice went up in flames, Parkhurst had been inside making a routine check. His father, Henry Parkhurst, Sr., who died last week and was bur- ied Thursday, had planned to install gas brooders to replace the kerosene type. The structure was about one and a half years old, according to Malcolm Joiner, Hopewell Township police chief, who investigated. Some $10, 000 was tied up in poultry and equip- ment, police said. High winds hampered the firemen from their task and aided the spread of the fire. At one point, the volun- teers had to chop holes through the ice on a nearby pond to draw water for their hoses. The raging flames were visible two miles from the scene of the fire. Smoke poured across the main high- way at intervals causing motorist to slow down. A silo near the building escaped damage ********************************** Obit Henry G. Parkhurst, Sr. Dies Private funeral services for Henry G. Parkhurst, Sr, 57 years of age, were held on Thursday afternoon from the Blackwell Memorial Home. Mr. Parkhurst died on Monday in Mercer Hospital, Trenton, after a lengthy illness. The Rev. A. Kenneth Magner, pastor of the First Presbyterian Church, officiated. Interment was at the convenience of the family. He is survived by his wife, Mrs Kathleen Nixon Parkhurst; two sons, Henry G. Jr., of St Petersburg, Fla, and Robert S., and one grandson. He and his wife lived on the Pennington-Washington Crossing Road. They formerly lived on North Main Street in the borough. The Hopewell Herald, Wednesday January 27, 1954, Vol 79 No 17 Page 3 ***************************************** IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7561. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Comments -- THE result of these steps From: Stephen Gentile . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/1/2011 3:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, I hate to spell out the obvious here but the Step as Gess quoted it here "Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps..." is incorrect. Changing that word from THE to A changes the meaning. The correct Step 12: "Having had a spiritual awakening as THE result of these steps..." The word "A" (meaning there could be many results) is false. The word "The" meaning single, so this means the result of working the steps is a spiritual awakening. Steve G New Jersey - - - - "THE" NOT "A" ALSO FROM: "Sherry C. Hartsell" (hartsell AT etex.net) Mike Barns (mikeb384 at verizon.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7562. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob and Bill W. Memorial Grapevines -- original or repro? From: gadgetsdad . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/8/2011 4:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII How do you tell if a memorial issue of the Grapevine is an original printing or a reproduction? Some are a giveaway by the copyright date or the events pages, but some appear to be very close replicas. Can any Grapevine experts help me out? Brad iverson IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7563. . . . . . . . . . . . Is this a genuine recording of Bill and Dr. Bob? From: planternva2000 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/8/2011 10:29:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was recently given a CD, "Dr. Bob S. & Bill W. Central Atlantic Regional Assembly Washington, DC January 31, 1948" The voices don't sound like Bill and/or Dr. Bob on any of the other recordings I have. Is this one genuine or another 'historical dramatization'? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7564. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Comments -- THE result of these steps From: pmds@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/11/2011 2:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As an aside, when NA "borrowed" our steps they changed "the" to "a" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7565. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA History tourism locations From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/5/2011 3:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII While mentioning the graves of Bill & Lois being in the East Dorset cemetery ... I would add that other important people are right beside Bill & Lois, i.e. both grandparents; his uncle; his mother; his sister and her husband in another location; and his father and second wife in another location. Les C. Colorado Springs, Colorado IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7566. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Comments -- history not theory From: Michael Oates . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/1/2011 6:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The primary purpose of this group I thought was about AA history not AA theory. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7567. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alcoholics vs Addicts -- historical facts vs. endless debates From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/3/2011 2:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ah . . . the Merry-Go-Round of "Alcoholics Anonymous” and the ”drug addict.” Hey folks, this is not the place to argue this. And it won’t get us anywhere to do so. If AA’s want to change things, then there is a way to try to do that . . . by taking it to the groups. But . . . *OUR* focus, here, is clear: this is a place for methodical discovery of historical facts about Alcoholics Anonymous. Not a debating arena between "alcoholics" and ”addicts.” I would suggest, with the moderators' indulgence, that if such a debate is worth its salt, then debating members start another group for that debate. It might bear fruit. Or it might die as a result of redundancy and boredom. Jon Markle IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7568. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: recovered vs. recovering alcoholic From: Mike Portz . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/9/2011 3:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Howdy. Here are the pages in the "Big Book" up to page "164' that include the word recovered: "RECOVERED" xiii, xxiii, xxix, 17, 20, 29, 44, 90, 96, 113, 132, 133, 146. "CURED" I think that it's important to note that prior to the Big Book's being written and printed, about 1935 until April 1939, one is hard pressed to see the word "recovered" used in written A.A. correspondence. The word most often used to one who was in recovery was "cured." Bill, Dr. Bob, Dr. Silkworth, Bill Dobson, Hank Parkhurst, Ruth Hock, members of the Rockefeller Foundation, etc., etc. all used the word cured on a regular basis when referring to our members abstinence. THE WORD 'CURED" REJECTED Probably due to the relapsing of several of our early members, it was discovered by 1939 that we are never "cured" of alcoholism, as Bill noted on page 85 of our beloved "Big Book." THE WORD 'RECOVERED" REPLACED IT For whatever reasons, Bill evolved and used the word "recovered" in the "Big Book." Grammatically correct or not, that's what Bill Wilson used as a compromise to the words cure or cured. Nevertheless, many of our "pioneering" A.A.'s and Dr. Silkworth used the word cured in written correspondence long past the release of the "Big Book." Being that, at least my limited knowledge, Bill never commented in a "written record" or a verbal reply, why this compromise was reached. So it doesn't matter what any current-day old timer attributes the usage to, it has no validity. Unfortunately, and with all due respect to recovered/recovering old timers, just because an old timer says something, it doesn't make it true. It also doesn't mean they are knowingly lying. Sometimes it is important to keep in mind that there are at least some old timers who have stayed sober but have never recovered and are still not really recovering. It is unlikely these type adhere to the three "essential, indispensables of recovery" referred to on page 568 of the "Big Book." Kind regards in fellowship, Mike Portz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7569. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: recovered vs. recovering -- Bill W''s self-description? From: Mike . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/2/2011 1:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Did Bill W ever call himself a recovered alcoholic? I read that Bill would introduce himself, "Hi, I'm Bill - I'm a drunk." (He also used the expression "rumhound"). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7570. . . . . . . . . . . . What dictionary did Bill W. use? From: royslev . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/12/2011 3:24:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Anybody familiar with details of Bill's writing of the Big Book manuscript have any idea which 1930s vintage dictionary was used by Bill? Or was in his office with his secretary or in his home with Lois at the time of the book's writing? I have a 1934 Funk & Wagnall's but someone asked what dictionary was Bill's. This is AA history esoterica at its most rarified, but I still wanted to post the question. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7571. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob and Bill W. Memorial Grapevines -- original or repro? From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/12/2011 3:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Brad! Not sure this is what you're looking for but here are both, Bill W.'s and Dr. Bob's obit straight from and Copyrighted by the A.A. Grapevine (they are in pfd format): http://www.silkworth.net/pdfhistory/Bill-W-1895-1971-Mar-1971.pdf http://www.silkworth.net/pdfDrBob/Dr-Bob-Dec-1950.pdf I am not an expert, but both of the above are from the AA Grapevine and are Copyrighted by the AA Grapevine, Inc. I assure you they are authentic. Jim M. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7572. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Is this a genuine recording of Bill and Dr. Bob? From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/12/2011 8:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Good morning all. I've listened to that recording (I got it at the International in San Antonio TX) & that's definitely Dr. Bob & Bill. Just Love, Barefoot Bill - - - - From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of planternva2000 Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 10:29 AM Subject: Is this a genuine recording of Bill and Dr. Bob? I was recently given a CD, "Dr. Bob S. & Bill W. Central Atlantic Regional Assembly Washington, DC January 31, 1948" The voices don't sound like Bill and/or Dr. Bob on any of the other recordings I have. Is this one genuine or another 'historical dramatization'? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7573. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Clarence Snyder, Going Through Steps From: Dov . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/12/2011 5:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII One very striking way to demonstrate just how much Clarence S. changed in nine years is to compare the description in "Going through the Steps" that Michael quotes Mitchell as dating in 1981 with the "THE STEPS OF A.A. - AN INTERPRETATION - Written by Clarence H. Snyder, January 1972" (written a year AFTER he remarried in 1971) printed in an Appendix of Mitchell K's Clarence "How it Worked" http://silkworth.net/chs/appendixe.html THE TEXT OF BOTH THE 1981 VERSION (with Jesus) AND THE 1972 VERSION (without Jesus) ARE GIVEN AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS PAGE. They are remarkably different in religious tone and interestingly there are other differences in Step interpretation such as the change from four phases to five phases. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Michael Gwirtz wrote: > > My sponsor is Mitchell K. I sent him a copy of the recent post about Clarence. We have talked many times on this subject. I asked him and got the true facts. I have handed out reprints of "How Clarence Worked the Steps." For those of you new to AA History, remember that Clarence's sponsor was Dr. Bob. Please read Clarence's story "The Home Brewmeister" and Mitchell's excellent work "How it Worked - The Story of Clarence Snyder and How AA Came to Cleveland." > > The following is a copy of an e-mail that Mitchell K sent to me on the recent post on AAHL. It is First Hand information. It should answer the question posted and perhaps spawn some new ones. > > Shakey Mike Gwirtz > > ================================================ > MITCHELL K's e-mail which he sent to Shakey Mike: > ================================================ > The origins of the "Going Through The Steps Pamphlet." The authorship of > this pamphlet has been attributed to Clarence Snyder for many years. Clarence's > devotees swear, as God fearing Christians that Clarence wrote it > despite knowing the truth and ignoring the truth. > > When Clarence took me through the Steps during the weekend of April 4, > 1981 it happened so fast that I really didn't think I remembered much. > Clarence directed me to work with others as he had worked with me. Soon after he > and Grace went home, I began jotting down notes about what the process was. > I called him, we spoke and he reviewed my notes over the phone. After > several days I was finished writing it all down and adding my comments to > enhance and explain the process so as not to have it watered down in any way. > Clarence agreed with my comments and the finished text. He asked me to send > him a copy of my typewritten format for him to have. > > The format was a reminder for me to remember what had transpired while > going through the steps as I had remembered it. It was to be passed on to > those I took through the steps so that the process wouldn't be watered down. It > was a helpful hint for those doing the work with others. It was never > meant to be a pamphlet, published and never meant to be used to mislead people > into thinking Clarence actually authored it. > > When the pamphlet came out I called Clarence's devotees and explained the > history of the typewritten pages. I told them how and why they were > written. Yet, they told me that Clarence had written it and that I lied and that > they were going to continue to publish it as is. There are several people, > still sober today who were recipients of the original typewritten document > given to them by me after I took them through the steps. Several people who > also helped me with the original typing from my notes. > > That being said, I feel as if I have to clear the air in a short format > here. Prior to meeting Grace in 1969 and marrying her in 1971, Clarence, > though a Christian was not as fervent an evangelical Christian as he became > under Grace's influence. Over the past several years I have been comparing > notes, documents, recordings pre- and post-Grace. I have spoken to many people > who were sponsored by Clarence before he met Grace. I have compared the > retreats I put on with him, the Camp Monroe Retreats and other early retreats > and their formats and content with those which began transforming into > Christian Evangelical Retreats rather than AA Retreats post-Grace. After > Clarence passed on, Grace's influence completely took over and the entire format, > intent and content of the retreats changed. What once was an Alcoholics > Anonymous focus became something totally different. > > Individual sponsorship in taking people through the steps became mass > group experiences. What Clarence believed in and practiced was irreparably > changed and despite knowing it had changed, it is advertised as being done the > way Clarence did it. > > I am working on writing the true story of the different Clarence Snyder > personalities. The real AA pioneer who loved and believed in the 12 Steps and > what AA stood for and the one who was influenced in later years into > something totally different. I am using original documents, interviews, > recordings of entire actual retreats wherever available pre and post 1970 and > recollections of those who knew Clarence before he changed from AA Pioneer into > Christian Evangelist. > > I am certainly not anti-Christian. What I am against is people trying to > pass off something that is a lie in the name of Christianity. Trying to > depict the accomplishments of the man from 1938 until 1970 as being with the > same intent as from 1970 on. It will be shown that there was indeed a > transformation after he met Grace and her influence changed the course of how > Clarence presented things. As the years went on, the intent and content changed > even more radically. > > When we did the retreats in New York together, the so-called "Prayer and > Praise" section was announced by Clarence after the retreat was officially > closed. That was to keep the religious part separate from the AA part. > Eventually, the entire retreats put on in Florida, New Jersey and other parts of > the country became totally Prayer and Praise and AA became secondary to > saving souls. Grace even said that the main purpose of the retreats was to > save souls. Clarence always told me that saving souls was important but we > have to get them sober first ." > ================================================ > > Again, What is posted above was written by my sponsor Mitchell K. It > is first hand information and that is what we look for when discussing > history. History needs to be factual. If anyone has tapes of Clarence before > 1970 please let me know so that I can get a copy of it if we don't already > have it. > > Yours in Service, > Shakey Mike Gwirtz > Phila PA USA > See you in Helena, Montana > > ================================================ > 1981 VERSION -- THE FULL TEXT OF THE so-called > "Going Through the Steps by Clarence Snyder" pamphlet > WITH PRAYERS TO JESUS > ================================================ > "Going Through The Steps" by Clarence Snyder > AAHistoryBuffs Message #1031 > May 2, 2002 > "Lash, William (Bill)" > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/message/1031?source=1&var=1 > > Going Through The Steps > By Clarence Snyder > > Before beginning the steps the sponsor must first qualify the person who has > requested to follow the path. Find out if they really are alcoholic and, just as > important, if YOU feel that they willing and ready to go to any lengths to > change their lives and not drink forever. (Page 142, Big Book: "Will he take > every necessary step, submit to anything to get well, to stop drinking > forever?") > > Ask your prospect 3 qualifying questions: > (1) Do you think you have a drinking problem? > (2) Do you want to do anything about the problem? > (3) What are you willing to do about it? > > If you get the answers: (1) yes, (2) yes, and (3) anything, and you feel that > the person is ready to follow directions without question, you both are ready to > continue all the way. > > If you feel that they are not ready, tell them so and go on to the next person. > (Page 96, Big Book: "To spend too much time on any one situation is to deny some > other alcoholic an opportunity to live and be happy.") The program and your own > recovery are not dependent upon winning friends and influencing people. > > If you feel that they are ready, then you start. There are five phases to the > Steps: > 1. STEP 1: ADMISSION, > 2. STEPS 2 and 3: SUBMISSION, > 3. STEPS 4, 5, 6, and 7: CONFESSION, > 4. STEPS 8 and 9: RESTITUTION, > 5. STEPS 10, 11 and 12: THE LIVING STEPS, CONSTRUCTION AND MAINTENANCE > > > STEP ONE: Who's boss -- them or the alcohol? (The above qualification should > pretty much answer the first half of the step)…That our lives had become > unmanageable, not only our drinking -- all phases of our existence were and are > unmanageable. It stands to reason that if we can't manage our lives and we are > acting in a manner that is not very sane (unmanageability is not sane living) > then we have to take… > > STEP TWO: Come to believe that a power GREATER than ourselves, something other > than us can manage our lives. A power that can bring sanity back to the way we > live. Who are we to believe that WE are the greatest? When we did Step 1, we > admitted that we couldn't manage our own lives. When we took Step 2, we said > that someone greater than us could manage us and restore us. We needed new to > have a new manager, a living, loving God. > > STEP THREE: We made the decision that we needed to come under new management > since our own management got us nowhere. So we turn our wills and lives over to > the care of our new manager -- Jesus. He will take care of us and manage our > lives since we admitted in Step 1 that our lives were unmanageable, and in Step > 2, that He could restore us to a manageable state and sanity. At this point both > of you get down on your knees… Both on knees, the sponsor says: "Jesus, this is > ___(name)____, he is coming to You in all humility to ask You to guide and > direct him. ______(name)_____realizes that his life is messed up and > unmanageable. _____(name)_____ is coming to You Lord in all humility to ask to > be one of your children -- to work for you, to serve and dedicate his life to > You and to turn his will and life over that he may be an instrument of Your > love. Person repeats after sponsor: "Lord, I ask that You guide and direct me, > and that I have decided to turn my will and life over to You. To serve You and > dedicate my life to You. I ask all this in the name of Jesus Christ. I thank you > Lord; I believe that if I ask this in prayer, I shall receive what I have asked > for. Thank you Jesus. Amen." > > Now that we have gone under new management, we believe what it says in the Big > Book at the end of the Steps in How It Works: > A: We were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives, > B: No human power could RELIEVE our alcoholism, > C: GOD COULD AND WOULD IF HE WERE SOUGHT!!!!! > Then we have to take an inventory. > > STEP FOUR: Take a searching and fearless moral inventory. We must find out what > we've got, what we need to get rid of, and what we need to acquire. There are 20 > character defects to ask about -- the individual wrongs are not necessary to go > over, just the defects that caused them. Going over the questions, you ask that > the person be honest and admit his defects to himself, to you, and to God (where > two or more are gathered in His name, there shall He be.) By admitting, the > person also takes. > > STEP FIVE: The inventory is of our defects, not our incidents. Here are the > defects: > 1 Resentment, Anger > 2 Fear, Cowardice > 3 Self pity > 4 Self justification > 5 Self importance, Egotism > 6 Self condemnation, Guilt > 7 Lying, Evasiveness, Dishonesty > 8 Impatience > 9 Hate > 10 False pride, Phoniness, Denial > 11 Jealousy > 12 Envy > 13 Laziness > 14 Procrastination > 15 Insincerity > 16 Negative Thinking > 17 Immoral thinking > 18 Perfectionism, Intolerance > 19 Criticizing, Loose Talk, Gossip > 20 Greed > > Now that you've admitted these defects, ask, "Don't you want to get rid of > them?" These same defects caused your life to be unmanageable. How can you ask > God to get rid of the THINGS you did in your past? YOU CAN'T!! You can ask to > get rid of the defects, which caused you to act in the manner you did by taking… > > STEP SIX: You were ENTIRELY ready (not almost, not just about, not partially) to > have God remove ALL (not some) of these defects. He cannot remove things that > have already happened. You are ready to get rid of ALL of them, even the ones > that are fun. REMEMBER, YOU TURNED YOUR WILL AND LIFE OVER TO GOD IN STEP THREE. > Now comes… > > STEP SEVEN: On your knees you ask that these defects be removed, these > shortcomings listed in your inventory… Both on knees, the sponsor says: "Lord, > here is your child, ____(name)___. He is coming to you in all humility to humbly > ask your forgiveness, believing that anything he asks in prayer, he humbly shall > receive. Person repeats after sponsor: "I, ___(name)___, humbly ask you oh Lord, > to remove my shortcomings and forgive me, my sins and trespasses, and ask in all > humility that you will remove my defects and shortcomings because I am one of > your children and I truly believe. Thank you Jesus, Amen." Sponsor: "Your sins > are removed in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." Both: > "Thank you Jesus, Amen." > > STEP EIGHT: You make a list of all persons you have harmed, starting with > yourself, family, friends, employers, employees, etc. If the person was involved > in the occult, God's forgiveness must be asked. We discuss briefly this list, > and ask if they are willing to make restitution and amends. (Since the sponsor > is boss - you really don't ask… it is assumed.) Then restitution is made to all > as soon as possible, except in certain instances where it is turned over to God. > They will have done STEP NINE: by making restitution. After doing these 9 steps, > your slate is wiped clean. You are reborn as it says in the Big Book on page 63, > "We were reborn." II Corinthians 5:17 says, "Therefore if any man is in Christ, > he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, all things are > made new! > > STEP TEN: We continued to take personal inventory every night: did you harm > anyone, have you done something wrong? Do you deserve a gold star or a black > mark? You ask forgiveness honestly, and all is forgiven by the Lord -- clean > slate. When you are wrong, promptly admit it. When you don't, use the inventory > at night to do so. Deal with your life by the four absolutes: ABSOLUTE LOVE, > ABSOLUTE HONESTY, ABSOLUTE UNSELFISHNESS, and ABSOLUTE PURITY. Did you act out > of Love? Were you honest? Were you unselfish? Were your motives pure? All things > must be based on these four things… > > STEP ELEVEN: Prayer is talking to God -- meditation is listening to Him. Pray, > go to church, read the bible, read the Big Book. Get to know the Word of God so > that you will understand it when you meditate. Thy will, not mine, be done!!!! > > STEP TWELVE: A spiritual awakening is THE RESULT of working, doing, and LIVING, > ALL of the 12 Steps! Then you have this message to carry to others. There is no > message unless you have done the first 9 Steps and are living the last three. > You can't give what you don't have. You must practice these principles in ALL > your affairs. > > Now it is your responsibility to give this message to others as you have > received it. Not changed, watered down, or how others may want it in their > lives. If they want what you have, they must do what you did. It is now your > legacy to hand down, AS IT WAS GIVEN TO YOU -- NO OTHER WAY!!!! It is > recommended that two people work with the newcomer through the steps whenever > possible, so that both may learn as well as give. > > There is no easier, softer way -- this is it. This is the PROGRAM OF RECOVERY as > it was in the 1930's in Ohio, as Dr. Bob gave it. You can and DO recover, you > don't have to stay sick -- you can and do get WELL!!! This is the solution; this > is HOW IT WORKS. > > Don't trudge the Happy Road to Recovery; walk with your head high, knowing that > through you, God will help others to RECOVER as you have. May God bless and be > with you. > ================================================ ================================================ 1972 VERSION -- FULL TEXT OF THE CLARENCE SNYDER interpretation of the Twelve Steps of A.A. WITHOUT prayers to Jesus ================================================ THE STEPS OF A.A. - AN INTERPRETATION Written by Clarence H. Snyder, January 1972 http://silkworth.net/chs/appendixe.html Appendix E Alcoholics Anonymous is not a "booze cure" or a psychological means of controlling one's excessive or obsessive drinking. A.A. is a program, a life changing program, and, in a great part, we owe our inception as a fellowship to our origin in the Oxford Group movement during the mid 1930's. The Oxford Group was designed as a Life Changing program- and we in A.A. have for our own uses and affiliation, modified their program, chiefly by designing our twelve step program in a manner that the alcoholic who feels he needs and wants a change from what they are experiencing, can comfortably accept and apply the program and thereby change their life. To do so, requires certain attitudes, willingness, and acts on our parts. We have simplified the program, in the feeling that any alcoholic with an alcohol problem, can live a life free of the obsession to drink. Our program of the twelve steps is really accepted in four distinct phases, as follows: 1) Need (admission) 2) Surrender (submission) 3) Restitution 4) Construction and Maintenance Phase #1 - Is covered in Step 1- "We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable" - this step points out phase 1- or our own need - there is a need for a change! Phase #2 - Includes the 2nd through the 7th steps which constitutes the phase of submission. Step#2 - "We came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity." Since we could not manage our own lives, of ourselves, we found ourselves to be powerless over alcohol, we were encouraged by the power of example of someone or some others to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. In this step, we have the "proof of the pudding" before we are asked to eat it!! Others tell us of their experiences and share their deepest feelings with us and those members are alcoholics such as we are, and there they stand, sober, clean-eyed, useful, confident and with a certain radiance we envy and really want for ourselves. So, we WANT to believe it! Of course, some persons could conceivably be a bit more startled at first by the reference to "being restored to sanity," but most of us finally conclude that in hearing of some of the experiences our new friends had during their drinking careers were anything but the actions of a rational person, and when we reflect upon our own actions and deeds prior to our own introduction to A.A., it is not difficult to recognize that we too, were pretty well out in left field also! In fact, most of us are happy in the feeling that we were not really responsible for many of our past unpleasant and embarrassing situations and frankly, this step does much to relieve our feelings of guilt and self-condemnation. Step #3 - "We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God..." Now here is the step which separates the men from the boys (or the women from the girls) - this is the step which tells the story as to whether we are going to be in A.A., or around A.A. Yes, we can attend meetings, visit the clubs, attend the social functions, but, unless we really take step #3, we are continuing to make up our own program. Since our entire program is based upon dependence upon God and our lives are to be directed by Him! So, here we are, making a decision which in itself is quite an accomplishment for the alcoholic, since they are one of the most indecisive creatures in society, due to their incapacity to manage their own life due to their obsession- But- to make a decision to turn our life and our will over to the care of God- this creature in the far blue yonder, whom we have little acquaintance with and probably much fear of, this is really asking very, very much of an alcoholic! Rest assured, that if they are not ready, if they have not reached their "bottom" or extremity, and if they are not really "hurting more than they ever have," they are not about to take step #3. So - they go pretty much on their own as usual, except that they do have the advantage of better company than they had been associating with and this in time, could really foul up any type of drinking life they may have in the future! Another important feature enters here, in that they know now that there is a way out of their dilemma and this is bound to "work" on them as time goes on, if they have any pride at all in themselves! At this point - their biggest problem is to overcome FEAR and "Let go and let God." Step #4 - "Made a searching and fearless Moral inventory of ourselves." This is a step which should be taken with the assistance of a sponsor, or counselor who is well experienced in this changed life - due to the capacity of the alcoholic to find justification for about anything - a sponsor can bring up through sharing - many various moral weaknesses which need attention in their life and can smooth the way for the alcoholic to examine them in a frank fashion. The next step suggests that someone is helping with step #4 - since it reads as follows: Step #5 - "Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being, the exact NATURE of our wrongs." We put ourselves on record and leave no options nor reservations! Note that it states, NATURE of our wrongs- not the wrongs themselves! We are not required to narrate details of our many indiscretions. Many of them we don't even remember, nor are conscious of. This is not a laundry for dirty linen, this is recognition of character defects which need elimination or adjustments! Step #6 - "Were entirely ready to have God remove ALL these defects of character." This step allows for no reservations. The alcoholic, being an extremist must go the whole route. We are not a bit ready, or about to be ready, but entirely ready to have God, not us, remove ALL these defects of character, (the interesting ones as well as the more damnable ones!). Step #7 - "Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings." We tried to make no deal, as we did in the past when situations would overwhelm us. It was common to say- "Dear God, get me out of this mess and I will be a good boy (or girl), I will not do thus and such, etc., etc., etc.,... " NONE OF THAT! We humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. The Good Book assures us that anything we ask believing, we shall receive! Step #8 - Begins our phase #3- that of restitution. So now we have admission in Step #1, Submission, Steps #2 through #7. Now for the Restitution in Steps #8 and #9. Step #8 - "Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all. Steps 8 and 9 should also be taken with the assistance of a knowledgeable sponsor or a counselor, since in our present state of impatience with almost complete lack of judgement, we could conceivably cause much harm in executing this phase of the program. Most of us probably have persons on that list whom we just do not want to have any contact with. The step states plainly - ALL persons we had harmed! Obviously some of these persons are not available, having passed on, or disappeared etc., so we must ask God to handle those details. But step #9 states - "Made direct amends Whenever Possible except when to do so would injure them or others." We cannot and should not try to clear our slate or conscience at the expense of any others. This phase is very important and it eliminates the possibility of carrying over some details into our new life that could consciously come back to haunt or harm us in our new life. We are going into a new life, and we should "Let the dead bury the dead." Now that we have taken 9 steps !!! We have concluded 3 phases of our program. These 9 steps we have accomplished - so - FORGET THEM!!! They have required action and you have taken the action, so there is no need of repeating it! There are only two occasions when one must refer back to the first nine steps, #1- is in the event that the person "resigns and resumes," obviously they must start all over again! The other occasion when we may refer to the first nine steps is when we are trying to explain them to a new member and helping them with them. So, now we have our last phase, that of Construction - Steps 10-11- and 12. With these steps, we construct our life, these are our living steps. We no longer must be concerned with 12 steps- ONLY 3 STEPS!! How simple, how wonderful!! Step #10 - "Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it." This step has absolutely no connection with step #4. Note, in step #4, it calls for a searching and fearless Moral inventory. This step calls for a personal inventory. This step is our daily check on ourselves. This is our check on the small and large and otherwise details of my life TODAY. My simple way of handling step 10 may help someone, since I find that it is most adequate for me, and I prefer to keep things simple and uncomplicated. At night, after I am in bed, my day is over, I find this is one of my most important prayer times. I think about my day, what have I done, whom I have been with, what has transpired. Sometimes I find that I am not proud of something I have done today, and I owe someone an apology, I do not permit these things to go unattended. I have found that it is not the so-called "big" things which seriously affect the alcoholic in their new life, but the "little" things. They can go on and on and add up and become a real burden and eventually have drastic effects upon our new life. This is the reason for step 10, keep things "cleaned up," keep the walk swept! Maintain a good healthy attitude. Step #11 - "Sought through Prayer and Meditation, to improve our conscious contact with God, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out." This is a great step, first, because it brings us into a prayer life. Back in step #3, we made a decision to turn our life and will over to the care of God. In step #11, we receive our orders!! Let us break this step down and discover how it is both simple and profound. We are seeking something, seeking to improve our conscious contact with God. What does that mean? To me it means He is not in the far blue yonder, beyond reach, but right here, close where I can talk to Him and listen to Him (the Bible states that He is closer than hands and feet, and that is most close!). So, I am seeking to make this contact through Prayer and Meditation. What does this mean? To me, Prayer is talking to God, and Meditation is listening to Him! The good Lord endowed us with one mouth and two ears, which should suggest something to us!! We are enjoined- "Be Still" - and that is how we should be while listening! The answers surely will come if we but listen. Now, the step tells us what to pray for. "Only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out." Since we submitted ourselves and turned our will and life over to the care of God in phase #2- now we ask for His orders and strength to carry them out. We are promised that He will never expect anything from us that He won't give us the power to execute. Now then, do you see any place in the step thus far to suggest we pray for sobriety? Of course not, and it is absolutely unnecessary - you HAVE sobriety. Thank Him for it - but it is pointless to pray for what you already have The 11th step states very plainly how to pray and what to pray for!! Step #12 - We have experienced 11 steps and something has happened to us. In fact, something happened at the end of step 9! Step 12 states very plainly - "Having had a Spiritual Experience as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other Alcoholics and to practice these principles in ALL of our affairs." What is a Spiritual Experience? That is the changed life we have been referring to. That is the change that comes to a person who has turned their will over to the care of God and continues to try and improve themselves, mentally, morally and spiritually. It states that we try to carry this message (not the alcoholic) to alcoholics. We practice these principles of love and service in all our affairs. Not just in A.A. meetings and associations, at home, at business, everywhere! What a blessing this fellowship is. What a great opportunity to love and be loved. Why cheat yourself? We have the prescription, the means of getting well, staying well, growing and best of all, SERVING. Come on in, the water's fine!! Friends are wonderful, the fellowship is distinct and GOD IS GREAT!! [This was transcribed from Clarence's handwritten copy.] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7574. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How Did a Sponsee get to Be Called a Pigeon? From: hdmozart . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/16/2011 2:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I heard someone say that "Lois was the one who used the word pigeon for carrying the message -- read archives of AA." I pretty thoroughly searched the web and couldn't find any support at all for such a statement - anyone know if there's any archival support for this statement, or is it just more drunk junk? Larry H IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7575. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How Did a Sponsee get to Be Called a Pigeon? From: Dov . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2011 2:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII An earlier post on this thread, Message 742 at http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/742 claims that Dr. Bob got it from Ben Franklin. A fuller description in Area 36's May 2008 newsletter "The Pigeon" (I kid you not) sources Benjamin Franklin's Pensylvania Gazette January 13,1737 (1736 Old style) publication of a list of 200 plus slang words for drunk entitled "The Drinkers Dictionary" which included the slang "pidgeon-eyed". The article, written by Father G. claims that the word pigeon came to AA via H. L. Mencken who was read by Dr. Bob. Interestingly, that is not the end of that story. Recent scholarship published two years earlier than the Area 36 article had shown that Benjamin Franklin was likely not the creator of the list because a very similar list was printed 6 months earlier than the PG article by the New England Weekly Journal of July 6, 1736 http://americanspeech.dukejournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/81/2/164 _____________________________________________ Message #742 On a visit to GSO some years ago, I asked Frank Mauser about this. He explained to me that Dr. Bob had a fascination with all the different nicknames there are for drunks - i.e. rummie, sot, lush, boozer, etc. Apparently Benjamin Franklin had described drunks as appearing pigeon- eyed. So, it follows that one who is pigeon-eyed is a "pigeon". This certainly fits with the citation Warren gave from Dr. Bob & the Good Oldtimers (p. 146). It had NOTHING to do with "flying around #$%&ing all over everyone" or "if you give a message to a pigeon it may deliver it someplace but never gets the message itself" or the other derogatory connotations it's been given. Its initial use was meant endearingly. Tom M. Boynton Beach, Florida IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7576. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How Did a Sponsee get to Be Called a Pigeon? From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2011 1:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The word "pigeon"--as applied to an A.A. newcomer or prospect--was probably coined by Dr. Bob himself. "He used that word," said Smitty, and one A.A. recalled that Doc would often announce at a meeting: "There's a pigeon in Room so-and-so who needs some attention.'" Or he might refer to the patient as "a cookie." - DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers, p.146 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7577. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How Did a Sponsee get to Be Called a Pigeon? From: gerrynmt . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2011 10:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Larry, If you type the word pigeon into the search box on this page you'll find a wealth of information in 10 pages of past posts. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7578. . . . . . . . . . . . Pigeons From: Mike Portz . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/18/2011 4:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Howdy Mr. Larry, Hope things are going well for you. For the kind of historical question you have posted, I have found that the best and most accurate information will often come from A.A. GSO New York's "Archives" department. They really do a good job of this and are as about as nice as people as you can find. They always have answered my questions in a very timely manner (except during Conference Week). Almost always within 2 days or sooner. You might give it a try. Their a wealth of information and our (generally A.A. members') questions are a part of the reason that department exists. Kind regards in fellowship, Mike Portz - Las Vegas Cell (702) 501-9551 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7579. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How Did a Sponsee get to Be Called a Pigeon? From: Ernie Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2011 11:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I respectfully disagree with the claim that it was Lois Wilson who first started using the word pigeon. I interviewed Lois four times in person in the 1970s, and I raised with her the topic of how newcomers were referred to. She told me she "did not like 'pigeon' because they are dirty birds." She said that she preferred "babies" as reflecting the tender vulnerability of newcomers and the caring affection of others for them, although she could understand why some objected to that. Memory is of course often unreliable, but I am as certain of the above as one can be. ernie kurtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7580. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How Did a Sponsee get to Be Called a Pigeon? From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/24/2011 10:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ernest Kurtz, Not-God: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous, p. 39 note: <<"Pigeon" was the term used among members of A.A., especially in New York, to refer to prospects for their program. Its origin is lost in obscurity, but according to Lois Wilson, its use derived from A.A.'s earliest days and it was consistently understood as connoting affectionate care rather than as in any way derogatory. In Akron and Cleveland, it early became customary to refer to new prospects as "babies," understood with the same connotation.>> - - - - AS AN EXAMPLE OF ITS USE IN EARLY NEW YORK A.A., we can see it being used regularly by the circle of people who edited and put out the Grapevine in its earliest years (Felicia Gizycka, Priscilla Peck, and Marty Mann): AAHistoryLovers Message #1442 More of Felicia Gizycka's Writings for the Grapevine, June 1989 Grapevine, June 1989 Finally I went down to Vesey Street, in the Wall Street section of New York, where Bill and his staff had a small office called The Alcoholic Foundation. Bill said, "Do you think you are one of us?" The greatest thing anyone had ever said to me. Drinking alone in bars in Greenwich Village, I had been cast out by most of my friends. I hadn't been part of any group for a long time. I nodded my head and said "yes" to Bill .... Bill ... sent me to see Marty, who became my wonderful sponsor. Priscilla was a sort of second sponsor. Both of them are gone now, but the three of us became lifelong friends. After two years, I think it was, the Grapevine was taken over by Chase and his pigeon and friend, Tom Y. They agreed to run it for a couple of years. - - - - AAHistoryLovers Message #1443 More of Felicia Gizycka's Writings for the Grapevine, Dec 1980 Grapevine, Dec 1980 A pigeon of Marty's knew Sister Frances and took Bill W. and Marty up to High Watch to see her. Bill started talking about AA. Of course, there was nobody to beat him at that, unless it was Marty. When Sister Frances heard their story, she said, "I'm giving you this place." They explained that AA couldn't own any property, so a board was set up with some AA members on it, and AAs and new people started going up there. Never be discouraged if your pigeons or would-be pigeons don't seem to make it. Sometimes, you'll see them years later at a meeting, and they'll come up and tell you that something you said to them long ago really helped to get them sober. Once, on Thanksgiving Day, I invited a brand-new woman to dinner with a couple of older members. I never heard from her again until years later. She sent word that she was sober in AA and living in Baltimore. She was so grateful for that long-ago dinner that she always invited some new person to her house on Thanksgiving. - - - - AAHistoryLovers Message #1532 More from the Grapevine by Felicia, February 1969 A.A. Grapevine, February 1969 There I was, above it and out of it, going to meetings to speak more than to listen, when what should come into my life but an infant pigeon, a man two years younger than I was when I joined! He says he likes me as a sponsor because I clearly don't have any of the answers and my confusion at this late date is most encouraging to him. - - - - AAHistoryLovers Message #1536 More from the Grapevine by Felicia, September 1971 A.A. Grapevine, September 1971 "Dear Sponsor," says one of my pigeons in a recent letter. "You have been such a help to me in my life, my sobriety, and in everything, that I do not know how to thank you. Whenever you feel low, just count up the people who are alive and sober today because you took the time to give of your love and help." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7581. . . . . . . . . . . . Why was the end of Fitz Mayo''s story removed? From: mykeblanch . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/22/2011 8:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, I was curious if anyone knew why the the last 3 paragraphs of Fitz Mayo's story (Our Southern Friend) were removed after the 1st edition? They seem so inspiring, so I thought I would ask the question. - - - - For the paragraphs which were removed, see http://silkworth.net/bbstories/226.html <> IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7582. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Clarence Snyder, Going Through Steps, the occult From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/20/2011 10:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A question has been asked about Clarence's inclusion of the occult in step 9. First, he was a sponcee of Dr. Bob. Both Bob and Bill and their families all experimented in the parlor games of the time such as Ouija boards and seances etc. Both had experiences that were negative. I feel its inclusion is relevant both then and now. The lower power seeks us in many ways. Bill's spook room at Stepping Stones (Pass It On pg 278) and Dr Bob's experiences with Roland J. (DB&GOT pgs 311-314) explain it in detail. Clarence also participated. I hope this helps and does not bring on a rash of voodoo and LSD questions on AAHL, but it did happen and it is part of AA's co-founders experience. Many others of us did some outrageous things when we drank that led us to the dark side. Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz weeks away from NAAAW in beautiful Montana IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7583. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Clarence Snyder, Going Through Steps, the occult From: Paul . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/20/2011 4:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A virtually identical version called "Going Through The Steps With A Sponsee: As it was done in the beginning" at www.barefootsworld.net does not contain the line (in STEP EIGHT) about the occult. That's the only discernable difference between it and the 1981 VERSION (with Jesus), i.e.: "If the person was involved in the occult, God's forgiveness must be asked..." Coincidentally, "WHY is the individual who wrote 'Going Through the Steps' preoccupied with persons involved in the occult?" was one of the questions that had more or less prompted Glenn's. For whatever reason, it remains ... I'd suggested something may have been aimed at Bill W. etc. but was ignorant of the composition date. Now it can be rephrased: was it Mitchell K. or rather Clarence S. who was concerned with "person[s] involved in the occult?" I, for one, am still intrigued. Not having completely read a Clarence S. biography (working on it) and lacking an urgent reckoning, I'm at a loss regarding antagonism towards so-called occultists. One might bet dollars to donuts that on the weekend of April 4, 1981, in an average room full of one hundred AA's you could expect to count on approximately one finger - or less - the number whom would confess to have significantly aggrieved "person[s] involved in the occult." So Shakey, or anybody else, if you don't mind my ardent curiosity about factual AA history, for lack of a better expression, have you asked God's forgiveness of a person or persons involved in the occult? Were you ever prompted by Mitchell K. to do so? Why, or why not? Best, Paul IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7584. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: obit - John G. Ackerlind (1921-2011) From: aa061035 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/21/2011 3:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Grabbed a couple of cassette tapes from the Archives today to convert to MP3 format. The first one was John A., Laguna Beach, California, recorded at the 1978 Colorado State Convention. Full name disclosure. Sounds like the same speaker in the 2007 and 2009 recordings. My e-mail address is: "aa061035" (aa061035 at gmail.com) - - - - John A's obit is given in message #7396 from "aadavidi" (aadavidi at yahoo.com) obit - John G. Ackerlind (1921-2011) A man of great character and love, born September 25, 1921 in Malmo, Sweden, died May 6, 2011 at 6:20 PM surrounded by family and friends. Served in Swedish Royal Airforce during WWII. He met Karin on June 6, 1944. Married 64 years. They emigrated to America in 1948 eventually settling in Laguna Beach and finally in Laguna Woods. He is survived by wife Karin; brother Carl (Britta,) their son Mike; sister Margareta her children Anita and Robert, and grand daughters Alison and Natalie. Children: Carolyn, daughter Kaisa (Brian); Claudia (Craig); Katrina(Ken) son Michael, daughter Amy(Cody), and two great grand children, Trey and Harper; son John-Eric (Jayne). For the last 48 years of his life John evolved to become a highly loved and respected member and a much loved speaker in the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous. He epitomized the finest ideal of AA - making sure that everyone, especially the befuddled newcomer, knew that they were loved. Memorial Service to be held May 14 at 10 AM Laguna Presbyterian Church, 415 Forest Avenue, Laguna Beach. http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/latimes/obituary.aspx?page=lifestory&pid=15 1166\ 418 [18] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7585. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Reading early AA, Clarence Snyder, Going Through Steps From: Dov . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2011 5:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn, I gave this post some thought and I wonder whether you have not perhaps unintentionally answered your own question. "this little piece says that people in AA were praying to Jesus on many occasions during the 1930's. It does NOT say that they were still frequently praying to Jesus AFTER 1939, when the great negotiation took place, resulting in "God as we understood Him" replacing not only the word "Jesus" but any other extremely explicit Christian language. But once AA people start writing AA literature and prayers for other AA people, the references to Jesus seem to me to drop out very quickly, beginning with the Big Book itself in 1939, and continuing with the Akron pamphlets, the Tablemate, the Little Red Book, the 24 Hour book, and so on". Clarence, was for most of his recovery in post Big Book AA and his 1972 pamphlet on the Steps referenced in an earlier message http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7573 very much follows the post Big Book AA line of no mention of Jesus, focus on suggestions, make the Highway broad by including suggestions to help the newcomer through his steps so that he sees how he has come to believe and how he was insane etc. His later focus on a Christian program may not be a distortion but rather a return to the program of 1930s pre-Big Book Mid-West AA that could well be attributed to his marriage to an Evangelical Christian. You wrote, "So if Clarence did write this little piece fairly late in his life, were the references to Jesus a retrospective distortion? Or at least misleading, in the sense of giving the impression that prayers to Jesus of this sort were standard and required practice in Akron throughout the early AA period?" Clarence's late-in-life position on early AA goes far beyond one short sentence. His position is well-documented in Mitchell K's Clarence S bio, "How it Worked" in which Clarence described in great detail how Dr Bob had made him do his own surrender to Jesus. It's interesting to compare the shorter description of Clarence's surrender in "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers" with the longer description of the same event in "How it Worked" and in that light reference a piece in Mitchell's Preface that states that Clarence wanted Mitchell's book to fill in what "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" left out. First the "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers" description in Chapter 11 (no Jesus): "Doc Smith came in later and took over. He sat on the edge of my bed and said, 'Well, what do you think of all this?' Then he paused and looked at me doubtfully. 'I don't know if you're ready yet. You're kind of young.' I was down to 135 pounds, no job, no clothes, no money. I didn't know how much more ready I could be," recalled Clarence. "Still, I had to convince them I was ready. "Then he asked, 'Do you believe in God, young fella?' (He always called me 'young fella.' When he called me Clarence, I knew I was in trouble.) "'What does that have to do with it?' "'Everything,' he said. "'I guess I do.' "'Guess nothing! Either you do or you don't.' "'Yes, I do.' "'That's fine.' Dr. Bob replied. 'Now we're getting someplace. All right, get out of bed and on your knees. We're going to pray.' "'I don't know how to pray.' "'I guess you don't, but that's all right. Just follow what I say, and that will do for now.' "I did what I was ordered to do," Clarence said. "There was no suggestion."" Compare with this parallel excerpt in the at times similar but far more detailed description (with Jesus) in Chapter 3.6 of Mitchell's "How it Worked": "After many minutes of strained silence, Doc finally spoke. "Well young feller, what do you think of all this by now?" Clarence replied, "Well Doc, I think that this is wonderful. All these fellows coming in to see me. They don't know me from a load of hay, and they tell me the story of their lives. They tell me what booze did to them, but I'm puzzled about something." Doc asked, "What are you puzzled about?" Clarence replied, "Every one of these men tells me the same thing. They tell me that they have the answer to my drinking problem; and on that note, they leave. They don't tell me anything. Now, I'm laying around here for about a week, I'm ready to get out of here. What are you going to do to me? What's next? What's the answer? What are these fellows holding from me? What is this?" He was not at all ready for the reply that Doc gave him. Doc looked at Clarence seriously, pondering his next few words. He folded his massive arms in his lap and said, "Well young feller, we don't know about you. You're pretty young, and we haven't had any luck with these young fellows. They're all screwballs." Clarence was not about to comment that he wasn't a screwball. All of the men who had spoken to him were much older. All seemed pretty responsible and sane. He looked at Doc imploringly and said, "What do I have to do to be ready? I weigh one hundred and thirty pounds, I've been on the bum for several years, and I'm unemployable. I have no more home than a rabbit, I have no clothes, I have no money, and I have no prospects. I have nothing. It's the middle of winter, and I'm in a strange town and you people say that I'm not ready yet? What more do I have to go through? How many more years of living hell?" Doc looked at Clarence and shook his head up and down. "Okay young feller," he said, "I'll give you the answer to this." Doc turned his body on the bed to get closer to Clarence, pointed a long bony finger at him, and asked, "Young feller, do you believe in God? Not a God, but God!" Clarence was ready for a medical cure. He was ready for surgery, any kind of surgery. Even rectal. After all, he was in a hospital, wasn't he? He was ready to sign a pledge, swear off booze, sing for his supper, and stand on his head if need be. He was, however, definitely not ready for God! He had already been to the missions when he needed clothing or shelter. He even sang a little bit. He had listened to all they had to say about God. He had "agreed" with them and they gave him what he had needed. How many times had he turned his life over to Jesus Christ for just a pair of pants, on old and worn overcoat, a pair of shoes? Most of these items he had sold for alcohol anyway. He sold them when the need arose, as it always did. Doc repeated himself. Louder this time and with a trace of annoyance: "Do you believe in God?" Clarence tried as hard as he could to evade this question, but one did not evade Doc. Especially when Doc believed in something this strongly. Clarence asked, "Well, what does that have to do with it?" Doc answered, "Young feller, this has everything to do with it. Do you or do you not believe in God?" By this time, Doc appeared to Clarence to be getting ready to get up off of the bed and leave the room. Clarence was afraid that Doc wouldn't "fix" him unless he went along with this line of questioning. Yet there were still the vestiges of resistance. Clarence tried to evade the question once more. He tried to answer on a more positive, but non-committal note. He said, "Well, I guess I do." Doc abruptly stood up, pointed his finger at Clarence, and yelled. "There's no guessing about it. Either you do or you don't!" Clarence became increasingly frightened. He thought that Doc was about to walk out and never tell him the answer to his problem. The answer that Doc had already given to him, but which Clarence was unable or unwilling to hear. "Yeah," Clarence replied, resigned to the fact that he really wanted to get well and that Doc wouldn't help him unless he responded in the affirmative. "I do believe in God," he said. Doc didn't sit right back down as Clarence had expected him to do. Instead he just stood there and stared at him. This time he really was frightened. This time Clarence thought that he had "blown my opportunity," as he put it, to rid himself of his drinking problem; and he began to think that he was relegated to a life of misery and despair. Both the fear and the desire must have shown all over his face because Doc eventually said, "That's fine. Now we can get someplace." Clarence breathed a sigh of relief. Once again, however, he was not at all prepared for what was to happen next. Doc said, "Get down out of that bed." Clarence was shocked. He asked, "For what?" Doc replied, "You're gonna pray." Clarence pleaded with him, for enough was enough, "I don't know anything about praying," Clarence said. Doc, still as stern as before and not willing to compromise his beliefs, said, "I don't suppose that you do; but you get down there, and I will pray. You can repeat it after me, and that will do for this time." Doc then took Clarence by the hand and "hauled" him off of that "nice warm nest," as Clarence put it, and down to the cold, hard, concrete floor. Clarence, in his shorty hospital nightshirt, tied together in the back by a couple of strings. Doc, in a suit with a loud colored tie, argyle socks and a diamond stick pin with a lion's head. What a sight to behold. Both men, on their knees, by the side of the hospital bed, in an attitude of prayer. Doc uttered some sort of a prayer, pausing every few words so that Clarence had the time to repeat them. Clarence didn't quite remember the words of the prayer exactly; but he did remember its being something like this: "Jesus! This is Clarence Snyder. He's a drunk. Clarence! This is Jesus. Ask Him to come into your life. Ask Him to remove your drinking problem, and pray that He manage your life because you are unable to manage it yourself." After they had concluded this simple prayer, they rose from the side of the bed. Doc shook Clarence's hand and said to him, "Young feller, you're gonna be all right." Clarence sat back down on the side of the bed. He was sweating profusely. But he was feeling something strange. Something he had probably never felt before in his entire life. He felt absolutely clean. He also felt relieved of a great burden that had weighed heavily upon him for what had seemed, forever. He had just prayed that prayer, not like he had done so many times in the past. Not like he had prayed in Sunday School, in churches and in the missions. He had prayed this particular prayer like he really meant it - meant every word that had come out of his mouth. He prayed the prayer directly from the center of his heart and not from a brain befogged from alcohol. He had prayed that way because he had felt his very life had depended upon each and every word that came out of his mouth. In all actuality - it did!" Here's what seems to be a very relevant piece in the Preface to Mitchell's "How It Worked": "In 1983, Clarence asked me if I would write his biography and the history of A.A. in Cleveland, Ohio. The book, Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers had been out for three years but Clarence felt that there was more to the story that needed to be told. He instructed me as to how he wanted the book to be written. He wanted a book that could be read by the average A.A. member, not a tedious scholarly work. He wanted to impart the flavor of the Big Book. He told me that this was to be a book written about an A.A. member, for A.A. members. He told me never to apologize for God, the personal God we both had shared together - the God he had introduced me to that evening at the retreat. The God Dr. Bob had introduced him to that day in February 1938 in Akron City Hospital". Are there any reasonable grounds to suspect that Clarence was engaged in a very elaborate and pre-meditated attempt to re-write and distort AA history? --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Chesnut wrote: > > Responding to Message No. 7495 from "Paul" > (spectrumptg at yahoo.com) > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7495 > > My question here is, did Clarence Snyder himself actually write "Going Through the Steps," and if so, WHEN did he write this piece? > > It is well documented that Clarence was talking this way by the end of his life -- Mitchell K., for example, spoke at Jared Lobdell's AA history and archives conference in Pennsylvania one year and told how Clarence had sponsored him this way, requiring him to pray to Jesus. > > But I have heard speculation (from Mitchell too, if I remember correctly) that Clarence did not turn into a conservative evangelical Christian of this sort until he married his last wife, whom Dick B. and others have described as a woman with very conservative Pentecostal leanings. > > So if Clarence did write this little piece fairly late in his life, were the references to Jesus a retrospective distortion? Or at least misleading, in the sense of giving the impression that prayers to Jesus of this sort were standard and required practice in Akron throughout the early AA period? > > Clarence (or whoever wrote this) does say in this little piece that <> But the first problem is, do we have any other corroborative evidence showing that this was in fact the case? I can remember one place in Dr. Bob and the Good Oldimers where one early Akron AA member (during the 1930's) was telling another early Akron AA member that "Jesus was sitting right there on the arm of his chair." In the Upper Room, the prayers were addressed to Jesus (instead of God the Father) around half the time, and to the best of our knowledge, nobody in Akron objected to Anne Smith reading (and praying) from the Upper Room. > > The second problem I see is that this little piece says that people in AA were praying to Jesus on many occasions during the 1930's. It does NOT say that they were still frequently praying to Jesus AFTER 1939, when the great negotiation took place, resulting in "God as we understood Him" replacing not only the word "Jesus" but any other extremely explicit Christian language. > > But once AA people start writing AA literature and prayers for other AA people, the references to Jesus seem to me to drop out very quickly, beginning with the Big Book itself in 1939, and continuing with the Akron pamphlets, the Tablemate, the Little Red Book, the 24 Hour book, and so on. > > (The only place I can see where frequent use of fairly explicitly Christian language continues -- that is, in AA literature written by AA members for other AA members -- is in the writings of the Catholic priest Ralph Pfau -- "Father John Doe" -- i.e. the Golden Books and his other writings.) > > - - - - > > But at any rate, here is what the pamphlet ascribed to Clarence Snyder (date unknown) says about Jesus and the Trinity. How many other references can people find to Jesus in early AA literature written by AA members for other AA members? > > In his description of how to work Step Three, he says that in this step <> > > And then in Step Seven, Clarence invokes not only Jesus but also the doctrine of the Trinity: < here is your child, ____(name)___. He is coming to you in all humility to humbly ask your forgiveness, believing that anything he asks in prayer, he humbly shall receive. Person repeats after sponsor: "I, ___(name)___, humbly ask you oh Lord, to remove my shortcomings and forgive me, my sins and trespasses, and ask in all > humility that you will remove my defects and shortcomings because I am one of your children and I truly believe. Thank you Jesus, Amen." Sponsor: "Your sins are removed in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." Both: "Thank you Jesus, Amen.">> > > In Step Nine, Clarence says we become Born Again Christians after completing this step: <> > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7586. . . . . . . . . . . . Florence R''s sobriety date From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/25/2011 9:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can anyone cite a verifiable (or even "reasonably" verifiable) sobriety date for Florence R? Commonly known as one of the early female members of AA, various online "sources" seem to all cite 9/13/1937 but all seem to come from the same unreferenced location. Many Thanks In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7587. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Clarence Snyder, Going Through Steps, the occult From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/25/2011 11:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Please re-read the posts. They answer those questions. I did my 5th step according to the book and you are neither my sponsor or my Higher Power so what I did is not up for discussion on AAHL. I think this is inappropriate for discussion on this group and am surprised that the moderator would allow such a question to be asked . This is not a closed AA web site. I will be at the NAAAW in Helena, MT. If you are there I will tell you privately. Shakey Mike Gwirtz - - - - In a message dated 8/25/2011 12:04:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, spectrumptg@yahoo.com writes: A virtually identical version called "Going Through The Steps With A Sponsee: As it was done in the beginning" at www.barefootsworld.net does not contain the line (in STEP EIGHT) about the occult. That's the only discernable difference between it and the 1981 VERSION (with Jesus), i.e.: "If the person was involved in the occult, God's forgiveness must be asked..." Coincidentally, "WHY is the individual who wrote 'Going Through the Steps' preoccupied with persons involved in the occult?" was one of the questions that had more or less prompted Glenn's. For whatever reason, it remains ... I'd suggested something may have been aimed at Bill W. etc. but was ignorant of the composition date. Now it can be rephrased: was it Mitchell K. or rather Clarence S. who was concerned with "person[s] involved in the occult?" I, for one, am still intrigued. Not having completely read a Clarence S. biography (working on it) and lacking an urgent reckoning, I'm at a loss regarding antagonism towards so-called occultists. One might bet dollars to donuts that on the weekend of April 4, 1981, in an average room full of one hundred AA's you could expect to count on approximately one finger - or less - the number whom would confess to have significantly aggrieved "person[s] involved in the occult." So Shakey, or anybody else, if you don't mind my ardent curiosity about factual AA history, for lack of a better expression, have you asked God's forgiveness of a person or persons involved in the occult? Were you ever prompted by Mitchell K. to do so? Why, or why not? Best, Paul IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7588. . . . . . . . . . . . New Bill W. pix, two of them with Bertha Bamford From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/29/2011 12:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Just to let everyone know, as part of their 175th Anniversary, Burr & Burton Academy in Manchester, Vermont, put out a new book in 2005 called "The Castle in the Pasture: Portrait of Burr & Burton Academy". In this hardcover book (which they are selling for $35) on pages 78 & 79 there is a wonderful tribute to their best-known student Bill Wilson & it includes three pictures of Bill I have never seen before, two of these show Bill with his first girlfriend Bertha Bamford. Just Love, Barefoot Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7589. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: recovered vs. recovering -- Bill W''s self-description? From: Sherry C. Hartsell . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/11/2011 3:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "Sherry C. Hartsell" (hartsell@etex.net) In the Forward to the First Edition appears the phrase, "We, Of Alcoholics Anonymous, are more than 100 men and women who have recovered----" and obviously, Bill W was amongst that number so describing themselves. sherry ============================================= Responding to message #7569 from "Mike" (heat_cool2004 at yahoo.com) Did Bill W ever call himself a recovered alcoholic? I read that Bill would introduce himself, "Hi, I'm Bill - I'm a drunk." (He also used the expression "rumhound"). ============================================= From: "MattD" )mdingle76 at yahoo.com) I always thought that the following explanation from the book "Answer to Addiction" made a lot of sense. (This book was written by Tom P., and 3 other members of AA — great read.) "The question has long been debated whether the freedom from alcohol addiction which occurs for example in Alcoholics Anonymous is really a cure, since the person must abstain from alcohol in order to maintain his recovery, and whether such an event had not better be called an "arrest" of the disease. The view of your present authors is that cure is a perfectly good word for what happens to anyone who is successful in AA. If a man who once had stomach ulcers is now totally free of them, and free from all signs and symptoms of them, but has to abstain from pepper and vinegar in order to stay well, we say that that man has been cured of his stomach ulcers, and that the recovered alcohol addict is in exactly the same case." - - - - From: "Jim" (mdhardcrab at yahoo.com) Forward to first edition addresses what the first 100 recovered from ..."a hopless state of mind and body". To me thats the definition of alcoholism as described in the book..."a hopless state of mind and body". My experience has confirmed I don't suffer from this anymore.. at this moment..I don't think........... IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7590. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Comments -- history not theory From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/11/2011 5:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It is my view ... "history" is itself, worthy of argument. During my research I have have found several things that have been quoted ... even by Bill ... and which authors have repeated in their writings as being "gospel" just because Bill said so! Yet, other documentation proves that the prior acceptance of a "fact" was inaccurate. There are a lot of things which influence what a person says ... even puts in writing ... which should be open to challenge. In some respects, Bill was a complex person throughout his life. We historians are justified in debating the cause and effect concerning history and draw reasonable "theory" from those. Let's not get hung up on finding "evidence" to prove others, or documents, are wrong. AAHL is a good place to discuss a variety of issues concerning AA. "History" is not limited to the "old timers" who invented AA. Les C. Colorado Springs, Colorado IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7591. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Comments -- THE result of these steps From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/11/2011 4:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From #1: Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) The sentence immediately preceding the Steps goes "Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as _A_ program of recovery." Emphasis mine. Not our, the, or the A.A. program of recovery, but _A_. My two cents. Tommy H in Danville ========================================== Responding to Message #7561 from Stephen Gentile (sagentile at hotmail.com) I hate to spell out the obvious here but the Step as Gess quoted it here "Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps ..." is incorrect. Changing that word from THE to A changes the meaning. The correct Step 12: "Having had a spiritual awakening as THE result of these steps ..." The word "A" (meaning there could be many results) is false. The word "The" meaning single, so this means the result of working the steps is a spiritual awakening. ========================================== From #2: stalban2001 (stalban2001 at yahoo.com) Why the quotation marks around "borrowed"? You make it seem like NA purloined them or something. NA always acknowledges that the Steps are "adapted with permission from Alcoholics Anonymous." ========================================== Responding to Message #7564 from (pmds at aol.com) As an aside, when NA "borrowed" our steps they changed "the" to "a" ========================================== IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7592. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Comments -- The Goal From: Mike Portz . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/11/2011 6:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Mr. Jon, With reference to your below question, I am going to submit below information found on page 45, line 5 of the Big Book which seems it could be construed to be the source of what Mr. Gess paraphrased. I think it could be easily translated to end up with what Mr. Gess wrote. What Mr. Gess wrote is not verbatim, but when innocently paraphrased, it does make sense. Maybe I should say, at least to me it does. I think that, when the Big Book says "that's exactly what this book is about -- its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem" that an open mind could easily interpret / shorten it to what Mr. Gess wrote. It seems to be the bottom line of what he is trying to communicate. "Lack of power, that was our dilemma. We had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a Power greater than ourselves. Obviously. But where and how were we to find this Power? Well, that's exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem. That means we have written a book which we believe to be spiritual as well as moral. And it means, of course, that we are going to talk about God." I reckon that there's no doubt that "the only, single purpose of AA ..." is certainly one of the "purposes of the book." I think it is a group's and individual A.A.'s "primary purpose." However it says in the Big Book on page xiii, line 5, that "To show other alcoholics PRECISELY HOW WE RECOVERED is the MAIN PURPOSE OF THIS BOOK." I think that if we don't find a "POWER GREATER THEN YOURSELF" we're most likely gonna find ourselves up that infamous "creek without a paddle" and probably won't ever be able to do our "PRIMARY PURPOSE." Remember on page 164 the Big Book also tells us that "obviously you cannot transmit something you haven't got. See to it that your relationship with Him is right, and great events will come to pass for you and countless others. This is the Great Fact for us." Maybe Mr. Doug was thinking about this quote also when he wrote what he did. It sure seems applicable to what he has called "the goal." The Book also states another "purpose" on page 20, line 11. What it says is that: "You may already have asked yourself why it is that all of us became so very ill from drinking. Doubtless you are curious to discover how and why, in the face of expert opinion to the contrary, we have recovered from a hopeless condition of mind and body. If you are an alcoholic who wants to get over it, you may already be asking -"What do I have to do?" It is THE PURPOSE OF THIS BOOK to answer such questions SPECIFICALLY. We shall tell you what we have done. Before going into a detailed discussion, it may be well to summarize some points as we see them." To the best of my knowledge, here are the pages you will find the word "purpose" used in the "first 164." Purpose pages xiii, 10, 20, 50, 77, 92, 130. I hope this information helps you. So Mr. Jon, I think you will find that what both you and Mr. Doug stated in your messages is not found verbatim anywhere in the Big Book. I also believe you are both correct in what you have said, and I think I get the intent both of you are trying to project. My point in writing this message is that I believe it might be prudent for all of us in A.A. to take a little more time to research the statements we make and the pictures we paint prior to making them. We all owe to A.A. and its members to try to be accurate in what we say and do. To me, its a very important part of everyone's recovery. It seems like the best place to get misinformation about A.A.'s 12 steps of recovery or A.A.History is in most A.A. meetings. I think we all need to work hard to change this situation. Kind regards in fellowship, Mike Portz ============================================ See message #7529 from Jon Markle (jon.markle at mac.com) Where does it say that, "the goal of the steps is to establish a relationship with a higher power which then heals us . . . "? I thought the only, single purpose of AA was sobriety . . . ============================================ ============================================ See message #7520 from Gess (john6528 at comcast.net) Re-reading this I see a confusing emphasis on method rather than goal. If the goal of the steps is to establish a relationship with a higher power which then heals us, then all the other stuff you speak of is either a way to get there or a statement of results having achieved it. Either way there is nothing to dispute or quarrel over because both the methods and results are personal. What is right action or right ? Are you called to Buddhism, New Age or whatever? Did you achieve the goal by thinking into it or acting into it? Are you called to a philosophical life or a practical rule oriented life? All are acceptable in AA as long as the goal is not to heal yourself but to establish a relationship with a higher power which will heal you. From that perspective your naming various ways of thinking and doing in AA isn't a problem, it is a sort of glorious statement of how open to possibilities the 12 step way is. Gess Posted by Gess in response to Paul's comments in http://hindsfoot.org/aahl001.doc as referenced in Message #7466 from "Paul" (spectrumptg at yahoo.com) ============================================ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7593. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alcoholics vs Addicts -- historical facts vs. endless debates From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/11/2011 11:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A useful source of facts and history on the matter are the two versions of the pamphlet "Problems Other Than Alcohol" (full version and extract version). The extract version is quite straightforward on the matter. The pamphlets derive from a 1958 Grapevine article of the same title, written by Bill W, which can be found in the book "The Language of the Heart." Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7594. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How Did a Sponsee get to Be Called a Pigeon? From: hdmozart . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/25/2011 2:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Laurence Holbrook and Gregory Merkel - - - - From: gregory merkel (dudleyjms at gmail.com) A pigeon is also 20's slang for an easy mark or a sucker,someone who can be taken advantage for easy money,in other words a defenseless newcomer. I think the word is both insulting and degrading used in this context. - - - - From Laurence Holbrook (email at LaurenceHolbrook.com) Thanks all for the replies - I am well convinced that the term pigeon was used frequently by Dr. Bob and propagated from him to many others and meant endearingly to be one of the flock - where Dr. Bob got it from, I leave to those better qualified - My question was did Lois have anything to do with the meaning of the word pigeon, specifically carrying the message - I found 7 posts in yahoo AA history lovers that included the word pigeon and Lois and read them - 3 of them came from this thread- the other 4 had nothing to do with Lois and a pigeon carrying the message - I read the silkworth.net references [(B 293) (D 146) (N 39)] for pigeon, although I couldn't find the usage of pigeon in Thomsen's book on page 293 - I renewed my subscription to the AA Grapevine, searched for Lois and pigeon and found four articles - (The Little Book (by Richard K.) New York -- June 1989, A Very Satisfactory Life (by Felicia M.) Connecticut -- June 1989, The Kid With the Strawberry Hair (by E. S.) New York -- June 1983 and Rendezvous in Buxton (by M. B.) New York -- October 1961 - those articles mearly used the word pigeon - I also checked the 22 AAGV articles that included the word pigeon, carry and message - most only used the word pigeon - this one offered a definition ================ September 1986 Vol. 43 No. 4PO Box 1980 Last word on pigeons? In response to "Pigeonperson" (April 1986 Grapevine), I have another term to add to the use of the word "pigeon." When I came into the program 971 days ago, I was told to get a sponsor. I got a sponsor, and my sponsor told me that I was now his pigeon. I didn't like the word pigeon either, because as we all know a pigeon is a dirty, stinking bird. One night at a meeting a fellow with about two years of sobriety told his definition. The pigeon in the old days of king and castle was the message carrier. This made a lot of sense to me. Now I'm the pigeon, so now it's up to me to carry the message to the newcomer. Now I'm able to accept this word without any resentment. I told this term to a lady who has thirty-two years in the program and she told me that in all the meetings she has attended she has never heard the word pigeon used this way. She said it's so nice a term that she's going to use it to her new pigeons, and with all her years it's good to still be teachable. S. M. Millersville, Maryland ================ In the April 1986, Vol. 42 No. 11, Pigeonperson article submitted by W. N., Miami, Florida, the writer was distressed to learn that his/her sponsor referred to him/her as a pigeon - he/she found and liked the second definition in Merriam-Webster's Dictionary, "an object of special concern.", according to MW first used in 1826 - I received an email note from Dave M.: Hi, Mitchell K, gave me some history about the use of Pigeon. Dr. Bob use the word quite often. The word was in reference to carrying the message hence "Carrier Pigeon" --- End of note --- I don't know what Mitchell K's references are - I did write to GSO to see if they had any archival support for the usage of pigeon as carrying the message by Lois - If & when GSO responds, I will share their response with y'all - Thanks especially to Ernie K - his comment pretty much squelches the idea that Lois used the word pigeon for carrying the message - Frankly, I was aware of Dr. Bob's frequent usage and thought that the attribution to Lois was wrong - I politely challenged the individual and she stuck to her guns, so I thought I'd query the experts just to 'double check' - Not everything is definitively provable in AA's history, in a lot of respects AA just grew, 'folk lore' and all - and to be honest, those that believe a sponsee is a carrier pigeon aren't necessarily wrong - if the concept is useful to them, so be it - it may be useful to others - the only issue I have is adding Lois's name to the idea to attempt to make the thought more substantial or an integral part of the program - Again, thanks to all - I appreciate the effort to separate fact from fiction - Larry PS: I thought the following two early AAGV articles were particularly interesting, but had nothing to do with a pigeon carrying the message - ================ February 1948 Vol. 4 No. 9 Reference Library --A.A. GOES ON THE AIR-- (Editor's Note: On New Year's morning, a member of the Manhattan A.A. Group appeared as the guest star on "Hi, Jinx," morning program of Jinx Falkenburg and Tex McCrary, over WNBC, New York City. Because the script was admirably handled in deference to A.A. principles of anonymity, and with great care to bring out the ideals of A.A., it is reproduced with the permission of the principals.) ---------- Excerpt ------ JINX: "And are there people. . .specific people whom you are helping now?" VOICE: "You mean our pigeons?" JINX: "What?" VOICE: "Pigeons." JINX: "Pigeons! What are they?" VOICE: "Well, if we are fortunate enough to be able to help another alcoholic, we call him or her our pigeon while they are in the process of being cured." JINX: "How many pigeons do you have at the moment?" VOICE: "I have three now. Two male and one female pigeon." JINX: "Are they good pupils or do you call them pupils?" TEX: "Are they homing pigeons, in other words?" VOICE: "Homing pigeons is very well said. To date, these three have been very good. One I've stood beside for about four months and is doing very well. I don't think we have any more worries concerning him. The other fellow is doing very nicely. He wrote me only yesterday that he had a slip but he is out of it and he is going to try again with both feet on the ground. My female pigeon isn't doing so well. She's in the hospital now but I'm going to get her out soon." TEX: "Have you told your pigeons that the old master is on the air this morning?" VOICE: "No, I haven't." JINX: "That's sort of a secret we kept from everyone but isn't it much easier since you were an alcoholic for you to teach your pigeons the right way, the way that you profited by all the things that you did wrong?" VOICE: "You mean that I'm a pretty good example?" JINX: "Yes, I do." TEX: "And that you speak their language?" VOICE: "Yes. All the way through, I've told you that that's the strength of Alcoholics Anonymous, the fact that the habits of all alcoholics are so similar. We know before they say a thing what they're going to say. We know before they slip that they are going to slip almost. We can tell by the feel exactly what's going through their mind because it went through ours so often." ---------- End of Excerpt ------ ================ May 1950 Vol. 6 No. 12 Sponsorship The Chairman tackles a tough question ---------- Excerpt ------ "How does one become a sponsor?" "He answers a Twelfth Step call and his prospect looks to him for guidance and help in working the Program. Or, you may be asked to take over some newcomer who is not getting along too well with his present sponsor, or some member of AA may say, 'I'd like you to be my sponsor.' " "Can a man sponsor a woman, and vica versa?" "Yes. Many successful recoveries have been recorded with man and woman sponsorships. Usually the initial call is made by a man-and-woman team, for the obvious sake of propriety." "How soon after a person has come on the AA Program can they become a sponsor?" "I've heard of persons being dry one day and going on a Twelfth Step call, with excellent and enduring results for both parties." "What are some of the important things to find out about a prospect?" "As soon as possible learn if he has a drinking problem. Does he know he has a problem. Does he want to do something about this drinking. Does he honestly want help--for himself, not because of the pleadings of family and boss." "Should you dig into his personal life?" "Absolutely. Get to the root of his marital, financial and employment situations, his age, domestic relationships and drinking habits. Assure him you're not prying, but you want to help straighten out his problems, and talking them over with someone who understands how he collected them, will release him from his alcoholic loneliness." "Does a person's education, intelligence, background, age or quantity of liquor consumed, have any bearing on whether or not he is an alcoholic?" "Experience has taught us--no." ---------- End of Excerpt ------ R.G.M. Grand Rapids, Michigan IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7595. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Florence R''s sobriety date From: schaberg@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/27/2011 10:20:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Old Bill Schaberg and John B (jax760) - - - - From Old Bill Schaberg (schaberg at aol.com) The first piece of hard evidence I have encountered on Florence Rankin is a letter she wrote to Bill Wilson on September 24, 1937 (Stepping Stones Archive, WGW 102.7, Box 25, Folder 29). Hank and Bill had suggested to Ruth Hock that it would solve both of their problems if Ruth hired Florence as her housekeeper and live-in babysitter and, on September 24, 1937, Florence wrote to Bill, profusely thanking him for finding her this job as a housekeeper with the Hocks. Under this arrangement, Florence moved in with Ruth and her husband – they were not yet divorced although Florence claimed in her letter that she hadn't "seen a great deal" of Mr. Hock in the three days that she had been there so far – along with their son, Gene, who was about to start kindergarten. Ruth was delighted with the arrangement: "She came to live with us and she was a marvelous cook [and] she took wonderful care of my child, she was very good to him." Unfortunately, this social experiment ended abruptly three weeks later when Florence rather spectacularly slipped back into drinking. According to Ruth: "Everything went fine until it was my birthday and Florence was going to cook me a dinner beyond all dinners with a birthday cake and all the rest of it. And when I got home, Florence was celebrating my birthday – but in a big way!" (Ruth's quotes from "A Discussion of the Big Book," a talk by Ruth Hock at Glendale, CA, March 12, 1978; transcript copy in the Akron Archives). Exactly where the September 13th initial sobriety date might come from, I have no idea, but it does correlate well with all of the above details. Old Bill - - - - From: John B (jax760 at yahoo.com) September of 1937 is correct. There is a completed "pioneers" questionnaire in the GSO archives from 1938 that lists this information. Jane Sturdevant from Cleveland was the first woman to achieve any significant sobriety (SOB February of 1937) and she is listed on the Amos Roster (Dr. Bob's hand written list of Feb 1938). Of course the Story of "Victor" and "Lil" (DBGO) is amusing but I don't know that "Lil" could be considered as anything more than a transient. Jane, Florence, Edith Scott (January 1938 - Akron) and Helen Penhale (March 1939 - NJ) are the ladies I have as being a part of the First 100. Marty Mann came after the publication of the Big Book (SOB April 16, 1939) so she would not be included in the First 100. FYI, I have compiled a list of more than 100 verifiable names (full names) of pioneers who were "in the program" or had been "a part of the program" as of April 1, 1939. All had achieved or were maintaining periods of sobriety or so it would seem. The many stories circulating that have suggested that there were only 60 to 70 people "attending meetings" or "in the program" when the big book was published appear to be a myth and that Bill "rounded up" to 100 recovered alcoholics, incorrect. The well documented writings of Bill, Silkworth, Tom Lucas and Joe Doppler which suggest 100 members at the time the Big Book was published (with two out of three being from Akron) can be substantiated. I won't get into what constitutes "recovered" but there were 100 members easily as of March 1939.I will publish this list some time in the future along with the necessary citations that support each name on the list. God Bless John B - - - - Original question from "Chuck Parkhurst" Can anyone cite a verifiable (or even "reasonably" verifiable) sobriety date for Florence R? Commonly known as one of the early female members of AA, various online sources seem to all cite 9/13/1937 but all seem to come from the same unreferenced location. Many Thanks In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7596. . . . . . . . . . . . Doctor''s Opinion -- what printing did his name first appear? From: Wendi Turner . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/29/2011 2:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the first few printings of the 1st Edition of the Big Book, Silky didn't give permission to include his name. When and in what printing did his name first appear in the Big Book after the letter from the doctor? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7597. . . . . . . . . . . . Richmond Walker''s sources From: bernadette macleod . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/29/2011 3:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Did Richmond Walker author all of the writings in The Twenty Four Hour A Day book? I understand the quotes would have been taken from other sources but were all the other writings his? Bernadette M., King City Group, King City, Ontario, Canada IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7598. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Richmond Walker''s sources From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/2/2011 3:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII See the Foreword at the beginning of Richmond Walker's Twenty-Four Hours a Day (1st edit. published 1948 by the AA group in Daytona Beach, Florida). The Meditations for the Day (the small print sections at the bottom of each page) are nearly all of them Rich's adaptation of a book of daily readings entitled "God Calling, by Two Listeners," edited by Arthur James Russell. Rich removed the references to Jesus speaking, most of the obvious biblical or Christian references, and rephrased the ideas in terms of "universal spiritual thoughts" which could be used by people of any religious background (or none at all). As he explains in the Foreword, the large print sections at the top of each page contains "most of the material used in" the book called "For Drunks Only," which he had written three years earlier, in 1945. This would be the completely original part of the book. He also incorporated some material in the large print sections which he copied verbatim from the Big Book, which I think you will recognize without any problem. He also says in his Foreword that he has included some material in the large print sections which he had taken from "other A.A. literature." Has anybody in the AAHistoryLovers done any research to see which sections those are, and where he got that material from? In 1948, there wasn't that much AA literature around to borrow from. The Little Red Book. The Tablemate. Also the Akron manual (Mel Barger remembers seeing a copy of that in 1948, with the reading list at the end, so it was in existence by that point). Or are there phrases borrowed from what is called the Old Preamble or Old Preface (or "Texas Preamble") in the Twenty-Four Hour book? Glenn Chesnut IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7599. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why was the end of Fitz Mayo''s story removed? From: Doris . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/26/2011 4:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Doris and Shakey Mike - - - - From: Doris (doris.ringbloom at gmail.com) They don't seem to have the same style as the rest of the narrative. In the original manuscript they are separated from the narrative by a dashed line. I wonder if they are a quote from something else. Doris - - - - From: Shakey Mike (shakey1aa at yahoo.com) It was because the stories from the 1st Ed were edited before inclusion in the 2nd Ed -- MORE THAN JUST the last 3 paragraphs. Part of the story of his childhood was taken out. I do agree that the last 3 paragraphs were a beautiful explanation by J H F M (known as Hugh to his family) of the spiritual side that can be realized in AA if you want it. At the workshops where I have spoken on "Fitz and Jimmy B", I always read those three paragraphs and comment of the rest of the deletions. See my prior posts on AAHl on "Fitz and Jimmy." I have my suspicions that it may have been deleted to diminish a spiritual approach to AA. But have no proof. Perhaps someone who has an answer to this can reply. Concrete proof please no conjecture. YiS, Shakey Mike Gwirtz P.S. NAAAW in 3 weeks and Elisabethtown Archives Spectacular on Sat 10/8/11 in Pennsylvania. More info to follow. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7600. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. and Niacin -- how many subjects? what numerical results? From: Dougbert . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/29/2011 5:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill W. conducted a study of the value of Niacin (B3) to overcome the cravings of alcohol. I was told that Bill W. had great success by giving alcoholics 3000 mg. of Niacin (B3), and witnessed diminished cravings by every alcoholic who took Niacin (B3). Can you tell me how many alcoholics participated in Bill W's study? Can you share the results? In Fellowship Doug IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7601. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W., The Strange Obsession From: schaberg@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/30/2011 9:29:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There are a number of internet sites listing the text of a story handwritten by Bill Wilson entitled "The Strange Obsession" (see, for instance, AAHistoryLovers message 34492) and a color scan of the first page can be found at http://www.barefootsworld.net/images/aa_strange_obsession.jpg. This is surely authentic, but I have been unable to discover the location of the original of this 7+ page manuscript. It is not in the GSO Archive in NYC nor at Stepping Stones. Has anyone actually seen this manuscript? And, if so, where? Thanks, Old Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7602. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Doctor''s Opinion -- what printing did his name first appear? From: schaberg@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/30/2011 9:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Old Bill Schaberg, Arthur S., and Byron Bateman - - - - From (schaberg at aol.com) Silkworth's full name does not appear in any of the sixteen first edition printings of "The Doctor's Opinion." It appears for the first time in the first printing of the second edition in 1955. Old Bill - - - - From: Arthur S (arthur.s at live.com) Dr Silkworth's name was added to the "The Doctor's Opinion" with publication of the second edition Big Book in 1955 (four years after his death). Cheers, Arthur - - - - From (byronbateman at hotmail.com) In a reply to an inquiry from me to Michelle M., GSO Archives, Dr. Silkworth's name first appeared in the first printing of the second edition, 1955. Byron IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7603. . . . . . . . . . . . Date and place of first AA meeting in California From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/31/2011 12:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you always in advance for your help. Can anyone verify, WITH ADDITIONAL REFERENCE SOURCES, the date and place of the first AA meeting in California? Was it the Kaye M meeting (12/19/1939) in Los Angeles cited in a June 1990 Grapevine article or was it a San Francisco group (11/21/1939) at the Clift Hotel that I cannot find a source for other than "significant dates in AA History?" Perhaps there was another earlier one. In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7604. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Clarence Snyder, Going Through Steps, the occult From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/27/2011 5:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Paul! Aside from the rest of your post, you mentioning not having completely read a Clarence S. biography. There has been a book written about Clarence S. by Mitchell K. Clarence convinced Mitchell to write a book about him and the early days of Alcoholics Anonymous in Cleveland, Ohio. Mitchell's book is an interesting read in which, not only do you learn more about Clarence, but you also learn more about the early days of Alcoholics Anonymous in Cleveland, Ohio, at least from Clarence's viewpoint. Mitchell's book also has a foreword by Ernest Kurtz, Ph.D. For you Paul and any other AAHL's members who would be interested in reading this book - learning more about Clarence - I recommend you go here http://www.silkworth.net/chs/index.html to read Mitchell's book in its entirety - photo's included. Yours in service, Jim M. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7605. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How Did a Sponsee get to Be Called a Pigeon? From: wil . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/29/2011 7:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Oxford English Dictionary pidgin, pigeon c. Phr. (to be) someone's pigeon: to be (that person's) concern, affair, etc. 1904 Kipling Traffics & Discov. 293 `What about their musketry average?' I went on. `Not my pidgin,' said Bayley. 1919 B. Ruck Disturbing Charm ii. x. 248 It was not Jack's pidgin to do anything until then. 1924 G. L. Mallory Let. 11 May in E. F. Norton Fight for Everest: 1924 (1925) ii. 233 Geoffrey Bruce whose `pigeon' it is to deal with the porters. 1929 C. Mackenzie Gallipoli Memories xiii. 237 `Nothing known of this man here.' `Pass to N.T.O. K beach.' `From M.L.O. Lancashire Landing to A.P.M. K beach. This is your pigeon, I think.' 1929 J. Masefield Hawbucks 164 This is my pidgin; none of yours at all. 1935 Punch 30 Jan. 136/1 `There's trouble in Paraguay,' said the man from Geneva. `Then leave it there,' said I. `It's not my pigeon.' 1957 `J. Wyndham' Midwich Cuckoos iii. 26 `Not our kind of job,' he said, with the air of one recalling a useful Union decision. `More like the fire chaps' pigeon, I'd say.' 1959 Times 6 Mar. 11/7 If it is the fur (not our pigeon) that makes Mr. Page furious, maybe the answer is mothballs. 1961 L. P. Hartley Two for River 45 Well, you do something, Thomas Henry, it's your pigeon. 1977 B. Pym Quartet in Autumn xviii. 160 Janice wondered whether anyone else had been to see Marcia.... She was Janice's special pigeon, if you could put it like that. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7606. . . . . . . . . . . . Oldtimer meetings From: Bent . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/2/2011 5:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Someone here in Denmark suggested to me that we should have an oldtimer meeting. Do you have any knowledge to share regarding this? When did these kind of meetings begin? What is/was the purpose? What is the common meeting format? What and who is an "oldtimer"? Any input will be highly appreciated :-) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7607. . . . . . . . . . . . Seeking guidance -- summer 1935 -- Dr. Bob''s house From: intuited . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/5/2011 12:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, I recently went onto http://www.self-centerednessanonymous.org/meeting-formats and noticed this statement in their meeting format: Good Morning; welcome to the 11th Step guidance meeting offered by Self Centeredness Anonymous as a service to the entire 12 step community. This format is inspired by the Guidance Meetings run by Dr. Bob, Ann Smith and Bill W during the summer of 1935. Does anyone know where to find references to guidance meetings in the summer of 1935? I would love to have any and all references on this topic. Thanks, Amelia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7608. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Seeking guidance -- summer 1935 -- Dr. Bob''s house From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/5/2011 5:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Amelia, "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers" p. 71 says the three of them would sometimes have a quiet time in the morning in which they sought guidance, but does not say whether or not they used pencil and paper. Past that point, all I could suggest would be to read the standard Oxford Group literature on the subject: I suspect that the SCA people are simply assuming that Dr. Bob, Anne, and Bill W. were following the common Oxford Group methods for obtaining guidance. I don't know for a fact, however, that all three of them were taking out pencil and paper in their morning prayer sessions, nor do I know in fact whether anybody at all in early AA meetings ever employed pencil and paper -- Oxford Group people knew how to obtain guidance without using the pencil and paper "automatic writing" method. For more on the Oxford Group methods of seeking guidance (including references to other books which talk about this) see Glenn F. Chesnut, Changed by Grace pp. 38, 43, 52-54, 58, page 149 notes 57-58, page 152 notes 62-63, and pages 157-8 note 76. And especially see the long discussions on pages 60-66 and 68-72. http://hindsfoot.org/kchange1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kchange2.html http://hindsfoot.org/kchange3.html I hope there are others who can flesh this out with a bit more detail and perhaps a few more references. Glenn IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7609. . . . . . . . . . . . First Roman Catholics in Alcoholics Anonymous From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/5/2011 6:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "The First Roman Catholics in Alcoholics Anonymous" by Glenn F. Chesnut Article available online at http://hindsfoot.org/aacaths.doc I would appreciate it if you could point out any errors or mistakes, or add any additional information to the story. BRIEF SUMMARY: The story of Joe Doppler, Morgan Ryan, the Cleveland Catholics (and Clarence Snyder). How Sister Ignatia devised a formula in January 1940 (AA, like St. Thomas Hospital, should be nonsectarian, extending help and healing to people of all religious backgrounds), which resulted in AA becoming 25% Catholic by Fall 1940. Also includes accounts of the liberal vs. fundamentalist controversy in early twentieth-century Protestantism, the problems raised by the Oxford Group, and the way the Roman Catholics broadened and deepened the AA understanding of the fourth step. The Golden Age of AA expansion after Roman Catholics began flooding into AA -- between 1939 and 1949 the AA membership grew over 750 times larger, the biggest growth in all of AA history. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7610. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Seeking guidance -- summer 1935 -- Dr. Bob''s house From: Robt Woodson . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/5/2011 8:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Woody in Akron, John Barton, and also Glenn Chesnut, who has copied out a long section on guidance from Anne Smith's Journal. - - - - From Woody in Akron Robt Woodson (wdywdsn at sbcglobal.net) Dear Glenn, and Amelia, Of note are references to Anne Smith's journal, a spiritual diary of sorts, it recording guidance. A copy of Anne Smith's Journal is reproduced at: http://hindsfoot.org/annesmth.html http://hindsfoot.org/annetype.pdf http://hindsfoot.org/annewrit.pdf (See the beginning of P.2 of the typewritten text...RW) (See typewritten P.18...contains reference to "Quiet time" and willingness to write down guidance received.) (See typewritten P. 25... "What to do with a person who is muddle-headed? Help them to make a list of things." (See typewritten P.29 cont... The above is quoted again.) (See 42nd Page typewritten re: "Quiet Time" repeated again.) I have more difficulty in trying to interpret the notes on the handwritten pages (which are typed too) I'll gladly leave that task for someone of greater expertise than myself. However, it would seem to me, at least, that we can be fairly certain that from this source alone that Anne actively advocated that notes and written guidance be taken and recorded from their daily "Quiet times" and other sources as well. Best regards, Woody in Akron - - - - From: "jax760" (jax760 at yahoo.com) Hi Amelia, I will send you a copy of Anne Smith's journal in an e-mail. You'll see she does mention this several times. You may also find some of the best info on how to have a quiet time in Wally P.'s book "How To Listen To God." I recall reading, but can't put my finger on from where, that Dr. Bob admitted he rarely wrote down his guidance - I recall he said he wasn't very good at this (pencil and paper). If it comes back to me where I read this I'll let you know. All the best, John Barton - - - - A LONG DISCUSSION OF GUIDANCE -- FROM ANNE SMITH'S JOURNAL Copied by Glenn Chesnut from the 8th and 9th typewritten pages of Anne Smith's Journal, see http://hindsfoot.org/annetype.pdf ============================================== GUIDANCE. (a) What are the conditions of receiving God’s guidance? (b) How does it come? (c) How can we proceed? Guidance is the principle of the Bible, its very structure. “God spoke” to Moses, to the prophets, to the Apostles. Paul was constantly guided by the Holy Spirit. Jesus was in constant touch with the Father. The Acts of the Apostles is called the Book of the Holy Spirit. The Bible is GUIDANCE WRITTEN DOWN. Modern theologians rule these things out of the Bible, because they don’t realize that they still happen, (Ps. 73 and 139). These things are in the background of the human race. The constitution was written under Guidance. Hymn writers throughout the ages have realized guidance. The Holy Spirit is the teacher “He will guide you into all the truth.” (a) What are the conditions of receiving God’s guidance? We must be in such relationship with God that He can guide us; He will not force Himself on us. The Son of God are those who are guided by the Spirit of God. If we are wholly surrendered we can absolutely count on guidance. Constant renewal of consecration is necessary. Surrender is not an attitude attained; it is an attitude maintained. The major condition is being absolutely willing and looking for God’s direction in all things. We cannot receive guidance if we hold back an area, a habit, a plan. We must be alert to His direction in Everything; little things, as well as big ones such as career and marriage. (b) How does guidance come? Granted we are living so we can receive guidance, it comes to us in all the ways of human understanding. It could come in no other way. If God spoke in any other way we wouldn’t understand it at all. Don’t expect guidance in abnormal ways. Guidance is normal. Specifically, guidance comes through intelligent knowledge of the Bible, through CONSCIENCE, through CIRCUMSTANCE. But some of us must surrender our conscience, because we are over conscientious; we always feel we must do the difficult or uncomfortable thing. God speaks through circumstance, but He may guide us to overcome circumstance. Guidance comes through reason, and through common sense. Guidance is not a substitute for what you should do yourself. GUIDANCE IS THINKING PLUS GOD. God will guide us in many ways: through church; through Fellowship. The clearest guidance comes through a group, although we are not always willing to have another help us decide. Guidance comes through direct intuitive thought. Just as we learn sometimes know what a close friend is thinking, so we can really learn to think Christ’s thoughts. Normal thoughts. The important thing is that they come with a sense of urgency enough for action. Guidance is not all black and white. But the more you give out to others, the more you will seek it. (c) How can we proceed on guidance? A. Get the Facts. B. EXPECT to be guided. The there are no barriers between you and God, you do expect guidance, and you act on the highest thought you have. God covers our mistakes in a marvelous way. We must not feel that there must be an overwhelming emotion. The basis of guidance is faith, not feeling, not analysis. Act on the simple thoughts, and more will come. So long as you keep on moving on the guidance you do get, you will get more. (Example of natives in a forest walking with lights on their feet: as long as they move forward, the lights shine on ahead; when they stop the light stops.) C. Test your thoughts. It is possible to receive suggestions from your subconscious mind. Check your thoughts by the four standards of Christ; and by other guided persons. Each will have a part of the truth and thus make up the whole. Move forward as a phalanx. Act on the highest conviction that you have. It is well that we do not know what will happen a year ahead. Christ told His disciples He had many things to tell them - “But you cannot hear it now.” Our course is guided by lighthouses. You may think you have been sent to a place for one reason, but when you are there you may find it is for another reason. D. Trust God fully for results. Walk by faith, not by sight. The Cross looked like a failure. Your guidance may look like failure, and you may never know its consequences. ============================================== IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7611. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Comments From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/29/2011 5:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Les Cole, Jon Markle, and Clyde G. - - - - THE RESULT OF THESE STEPS: From: LES COLE (elsietwo at msn.com) Tommy & others: I'm often troubled when we start to define situations which focus on the word "spirituality". It is my view that this does NOT imply something akin to religion...especially any specific "kind" of religion such as Christianity, Judaism, etc. The very earliest pronouncements by Bill emphasized that everyone who wanted to escape their alcoholism, regardless of their otherwise orientations, was welcome to utilize the AA Fellowship and its program...even atheists! The 12th Step has a broader significance if the word "spirituality" is considered to mean "insight". The previous Steps...especially 4&5 are when change begins. Those activities, themselves, can develop insight, and our character defects can be resolved by such new insights...not just passed on to God. Ergo ... when one gets to Step 12 (if the full range is actually practiced) sobriety can be achieved whether or not a "higher power" has been involved. That idea is pretty controversial, isn't it? Bill was a pragmatist. Let's remember that. Les C Colorado Springs, Colorado - - - - From: Jon Markle (jon.markle at mac.com) I find this argument silly and inappropriate to this forum. Depending upon where you are, the words are different. I believe that in many groups in the Cleveland/Akron area, the literature they use has one version, while we on the East Coast have the more NYC version. It’s not a big enough difference to argue about. It all means the same thing. - - - - HISTORY NOT THEORY: From: "CloydG" I am curious to know what Les C. meant by, "History", is not limited to the, "old timers", who invented A.A.? If he means or refers to the, "old timers", as men and women who flew on a wire or better said, were experimenting as they went along. I'd suggest the reference could care some validity as not all ideas or information contained in the A.A. Big Book were considered original thoughts. However, if he means to say A.A. History is not limited to those that wrote the BB, then who is Les talking about. Oh, I forgot, it's not for me to ask questions or to have a brain to think with is it? I mean if it didn't come from a footnote or if it wasn't written in a margin on the original transcript or through word of mouth between the original 100. If it didn't come from either an interview or in a Biography or Auto-Biography. Then how do we know if the facts are true or......if the information; directions, were as they openly wrote. Then again, how do we know for sure if anything we think, is of a Historical importance? I mean, if we begin to think we can change AA History through our own analyzing. Then what's the point of even discussing it? We might as well call this group a Wikipedia AA History group. The reason I say that is because it seems that some of us seem to put more validity behind a repeat of information from a second or third party. As opposed to the original statement or facts by the originating source. Frank P., Ebby and a few others has axes to grind with Bill in one way or another. I'm sure there were others who also had differences as well, perhaps some of them are in this group, I don't know. The point being is this, the disclaimer on page 164, the part we refer to as, "A Vision For You", did say that they admitted that their book, Alcoholics Anonymous, we meant to be suggestive only. They realized they knew only a little, that God would disclose more to us and to them. That if we ask HIM(God) in our morning meditation what we could do for the man who was still sick. That we'd obtain our own answers as long as our own house was in order. Now non AAHistoryLover alcoholics seem to have reasons of their own as to why they wish to argue, disprove or analyze AA History. I'm just wondering why their ideas are of any significance than anyone one else's? Clyde G. Bakersfield, California IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7612. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and Niacin -- how many subjects? what numerical results? From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/4/2011 12:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IMPORTANT MEDICAL WARNING: Some 30 years ago, a fellow AA from Los Angeles told me about the wonders of niacin. Sounded like a good idea to me. After all, Bill W himself had recommended it. My friend said to start with 100 mg/day and gradually increase to 900 mg/day. So I did. At the max dose, I suddenly started vomiting every morning while on a week-long business trip. Bummer! I'd never even had that affliction when I was drinking. But not until the end of the week did I finally begin to wonder if the niacin was responsible. As soon as I got home, I checked with my doctor, who promptly ordered a liver blood panel. She knew all about niacin's poisonous potential. Fortunately, my liver was ok. Needless to say, I immediately stopped the niacin. Caveat emptor!!!!! Shalom - Sally Brown IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7613. . . . . . . . . . . . Code of Ethics for Archivists and Historians From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/2/2011 10:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII History should be supported by fact but conjecture should be accepted under certain conditions. History of AA is not just about Bill. What the old timers said and did is our past and that is worth preserving. If history is proven through documentation it is "fact." Fact, and by that I mean documented fact, disputes any inaccuracies. The truth is out there and as an AA historian or archivist/ conservator it is my duty to make sure that the man or woman coming into AA for the 1st 2nd or 3rd time gets the truth. There are a lot of mistakes and inaccuracies in AA history which need to be changed. We verify or change them by getting the facts to prove them right or wrong. May I refer you to the front page of Akron Archives which I copy below: Why an Alcoholics Anonymous Archives? There is both a need and an obligation to save the history of our Fellowship. The existing correspondence, records, photographs, newspaper and magazine articles must be collected and preserved for present and future generations. The Mission of the Akron A.A. Archives: * To preserve the A.A. message and carry it to other alcoholics. * To preserve the history of our fellowship to prevent distortion. * To cooperate with and support other A.A. archives and archivists working within A.A.'s service structure and the 12 Traditions." The idea of preventing distortion is for what we strive. There is a code of ethics for archivists which I am also enclosing belowfrom the Society of American Archivists, Please read section V. Of course, this is an "AAHistory Lovers Group. We are mixed and varied. Historians also have a Code of Ethics for Historians and I include it to make a point. Historians also have to document their point of view and leave a clear trail for others to follow. "Critical Dialog" is acceptable, I believe,at AAHL. Under History Code of Ethics section 2 states, "All historians believe in honoring the integrity of the historical record. They do not fabricate evidence. I read this as meaning that they prove through evidence their postion on which they are discussing. ============================================= Preamble The Code of Ethics for Archivists establishes standards for the archival profession. It introduces new members of the profession to those standards, reminds experienced archivists of their professional responsibilities, and serves as a model for institutional policies. It also is intended to inspire public confidence in the profession. This code provides an ethical framework to guide members of the profession. It does not provide the solution to specific problems. The term "archivist" as used in this code encompasses all those concerned with the selection, control, care, preservation, and administration of historical and documentary records of enduring value. I. Purpose The Society of American Archivists recognizes the importance of educating the profession and general public about archival ethics by codifying ethical principles to guide the work of archivists. This code provides a set of principles to which archivists aspire. II. Professional Relationships Archivists select, preserve, and make available historical and documentary records of enduring value. Archivists cooperate, collaborate, and respect each institution and its mission and collecting policy. Respect and cooperation form the basis of all professional relationships with colleagues and users. III. Judgment Archivists should exercise professional judgment in acquiring, appraising, and processing historical materials. They should not allow personal beliefs or perspectives to affect their decisions. IV. Trust Archivists should not profit or otherwise benefit from their privileged access to and control of historical records and documentary materials. V. Authenticity and Integrity Archivists strive to preserve and protect the authenticity of records in their holdings by documenting their creation and use in hard copy and electronic formats. They have a fundamental obligation to preserve the intellectual and physical integrity of those records. Archivists may not alter, manipulate, or destroy data or records to conceal facts or distort evidence. VI. Access Archivists strive to promote open and equitable access to their services and the records in their care without discrimination or preferential treatment, and in accordance with legal requirements, cultural sensitivities, and institutional policies. Archivists recognize their responsibility to promote the use of records as a fundamental purpose of the keeping of archives. Archivists may place restrictions on access for the protection of privacy or confidentiality of information in the records. VII. Privacy Archivists protect the privacy rights of donors and individuals or groups who are the subject of records. They respect all users' right to privacy by maintaining the confidentiality of their research and protecting any personal information collected about them in accordance with the institution's security procedures. VIII. Security/Protection Archivists protect all documentary materials for which they are responsible and guard them against defacement, physical damage, deterioration, and theft. Archivists should cooperate with colleagues and law enforcement agencies to apprehend and prosecute thieves and vandals. IX. Law Archivists must uphold all federal, state, and local laws. ============================================= ============================================= This Statement on Standards of Professional Conduct addresses dilemmas and concerns about the practice of history that historians have regularly brought to the American Historical Association seeking guidance and counsel. Some of the most important sections of this Statement address questions about employment that vary according to the different institutional settings in which historians perform their work. Others address forms of professional misconduct that are especially troubling to historians. And some seek to identify a core set of shared values that professional historians strive to honor in the course of their work. 1. The Profession of History History is the never-ending process whereby people seek to understand the past and its many meanings. The institutional and intellectual forms of history's dialogue with the past have changed enormously over time, but the dialogue itself has been part of the human experience for millennia. We all interpret and narrate the past, which is to say that we all participate in making history. It is among our most fundamental tools for understanding ourselves and the world around us. Professional historians benefit enormously from this shared human fascination for the past. Few fields are more accessible or engaging to members of the public. Individuals from all backgrounds have a stake in how the past is interpreted, for it cuts to the very heart of their identities and world views. This is why history can evoke such passion and controversy in the public realm. All manner of people can and do produce good history. Professional historians are wise to remember that they will never have a monopoly on their own discipline, and that this is much more a strength than a weakness. The openness of the discipline is among its most attractive features, perennially renewing it and making it relevant to new constituencies. What, then, distinguishes a professional historian from everyone else? Membership in this profession is defined by self-conscious identification with a community of historians who are collectively engaged in investigating and interpreting the past as a matter of disciplined learned practice. Historians work in an extraordinary range of settings: in museums and libraries and government agencies, in schools and academic institutions, in corporations and non-profit organizations. Some earn their living primarily from employment related to the past; some practice history while supporting themselves in other ways. Whatever the venue in which they work, though, professional historians share certain core values that guide their activities and inform their judgments as they seek to enrich our collective understanding of the past. These shared values for conducting and assessing research, developing and evaluating interpretations, communicating new knowledge, navigating ethical dilemmas, and, not least, telling stories about the past, define the professional practice of history. 2. Shared Values of Historians Historians strive constantly to improve our collective understanding of the past through a complex process of critical dialogue -- with each other, with the wider public, and with the historical record -- in which we explore former lives and worlds in search of answers to the most compelling questions of our own time and place. Historians cannot successfully do this work without mutual trust and respect. By practicing their craft with integrity, historians acquire a reputation for trustworthiness that is arguably their single most precious professional asset. The trust and respect both of one's peers and of the public at large are among the greatest and most hard-won achievements that any historian can attain. It is foolish indeed to put them at risk. Although historians disagree with each other about many things, they do know what they trust and respect in each other's work. All historians believe in honoring the integrity of the historical record. They do not fabricate evidence. Forgery and fraud violate the most basic foundations on which historians construct their interpretations of the past. An undetected counterfeit undermines not just the historical arguments of the forger, but all subsequent scholarship that relies on the forger's work. Those who invent, alter, remove, or destroy evidence make it difficult for any serious historian ever wholly to trust their work again. We honor the historical record, but understand that its interpretation constantly evolves as historians analyze primary documents in light of the ever-expanding body of secondary literature that places those documents in a larger context. By "documents," historians typically mean all forms of evidence -- not just written texts, but artifacts, images, statistics, oral recollections, the built and natural environment, and many other things -- that have survived as records of former times. By "secondary literature," we typically mean all subsequent interpretations of those former times based on the evidence contained in primary documents. This distinction between primary and secondary sources is among the most fundamental that historians make. Drawing the boundary between them is a good deal more complicated than it might seem, since determining whether a document is primary or secondary largely depends on the questions one asks of it. At the most basic level, though, the professional practice of history means respecting the integrity of primary and secondary sources while subjecting them to critical scrutiny and contributing in a fair-minded way to ongoing scholarly and public debates over what those sources tell us about the past. Honoring the historical record also means leaving a clear trail for subsequent historians to follow. This is why scholarly apparatus in the form of bibliographies and annotations (and associated institutional repositories like libraries, archives, and museums) is so essential to the professional practice of history. Such apparatus is valuable for many reasons. It enables other historians to retrace the steps in an argument to make sure those steps are justified by the sources. Apparatus often evaluates evidence to indicate gaps in the historical record that might cast doubt on a given interpretation. Knowing that trust is ultimately more important than winning a debate for the wrong reasons, professional historians are as interested in defining the limits and uncertainties of their own arguments as they are in persuading others that those arguments are correct. Finally, the trail of evidence left by any single work of history becomes a key starting point for subsequent investigations of the same subject, and thus makes a critical contribution to our collective capacity to ask and answer new questions about the past. For all these reasons, historians pride themselves on the accuracy with which they use and document sources. The sloppier their apparatus, the harder it is for other historians to trust their work. The trail of evidence in bibliographies, notes, museum catalogs, databases, and other forms of scholarly apparatus is crucial not just for documenting the primary sources on which a work of history depends, but the secondary sources as well. Practicing history with integrity means acknowledging one's debts to the work of other historians. To copy the work of another and claim it for one's own is plagiarism -- an act historians abhor. Plagiarism violates the historical record by failing to reveal the secondary sources that have contributed to a given line of argument. It is a form of fraud, and betrays the trust on which the historical profession depends. Much more will be said about it later in this Statement on Standards. Among the core principles of the historical profession that can seem counter-intuitive to non-historians is the conviction, very widely if not universally shared among historians since the nineteenth century, that practicing history with integrity does not mean being neutral or having no point of view. Every work of history articulates a particular, limited perspective on the past. Historians hold this view not because they believe that all interpretations are equally valid, or that nothing can ever be known about the past, or that facts do not matter. Quite the contrary. History would be pointless if such claims were true, since its most basic premise is that within certain limits we can indeed know and make sense of past worlds and former times that now exist only as remembered traces in the present. But the very nature of our discipline means that historians also understand that all knowledge is situated in time and place, that all interpretations express a point of view, and that no mortal mind can ever aspire to omniscience. Because the record of the past is so fragmentary, absolute historical knowledge is denied us. Furthermore, the different peoples whose past lives we seek to understand held views of their lives that were often very different from each other -- and from our own. Doing justice to those views means to some extent trying (never wholly successfully) to see their worlds through their eyes. This is especially true when people in the past disagreed or came into conflict with each other, since any adequate understanding of their world must somehow encompass their disagreements and competing points of view within a broader context. Multiple, conflicting perspectives are among the truths of history. No single objective or universal account could ever put an end to this endless creative dialogue within and between the past and the present. What is true of history is also true of historians. Everyone who comes to the study of history brings with them a host of identities, experiences, and interests that cannot help but affect the questions they ask of the past and the answers they wish to know. When applied with integrity and self-critical fair-mindedness, the political, social, and religious beliefs of historians can appropriately inform their historical practice. Because the questions we ask profoundly shape everything we do -- the topics we investigate, the evidence we gather, the arguments we construct, the stories we tell -- it is inevitable that different historians will produce different histories. For this reason, historians often disagree and argue with each other. That historians can sometimes differ quite vehemently not just about interpretations but even about the basic facts of what happened in the past is sometimes troubling to non-historians, especially if they imagine that history consists of a universally agreed-upon accounting of stable facts and known certainties. But universal agreement is not a condition to which historians typically aspire. Instead, we understand that interpretive disagreements are vital to the creative ferment of our profession, and can in fact contribute to some of our most original and valuable insights. Frustrating as these disagreements and uncertainties may be even for historians, they are an irreducible feature of the discipline. In contesting each other's interpretations, professional historians recognize that the resulting disagreements can deepen and enrich historical understanding by generating new questions, new arguments, and new lines of investigation. This crucial insight underpins some of the most important shared values that define the professional conduct of historians. They believe in vigorous debate, but they also believe in civility. They rely on their own perspectives as they probe the past for meaning, but they also subject those perspectives to critical scrutiny by testing them against the views of others. Historians celebrate intellectual communities governed by mutual respect and constructive criticism. The preeminent value of such communities is reasoned discourse -- the continuous colloquy among historians holding diverse points of view who learn from each other as they pursue topics of mutual interest. A commitment to such discourse -- balancing fair and honest criticism with tolerance and openness to different ideas -- makes possible the fruitful exchange of views, opinions, and knowledge. This being the case, it is worth repeating that a great many dilemmas associated with the professional practice of history can be resolved by returning to the core values that the preceding paragraphs have sought to sketch. Historians should practice their craft with integrity. They should honor the historical record. They should document their sources. They should acknowledge their debts to the work of other scholars. They should respect and welcome divergent points of view even as they argue and subject those views to critical scrutiny. They should remember that our collective enterprise depends on mutual trust. And they should never betray that trust. 3. Scholarship Scholarship -- the discovery, exchange, interpretation, and presentation of information about the past -- is basic to the professional practice of history. It depends on the collection and preservation of historical documents, artifacts, and other source materials in a variety of institutional settings ranging from libraries to archives to museums to government agencies to private organizations. Historians are committed to protecting significant historical evidence wherever it resides. Scholarship likewise depends on the open dissemination of historical knowledge via many different channels of communication: books, articles, classrooms, exhibits, films, historic sites, museums, legal memoranda, testimony, and many other ways. The free exchange of information about the past is dear to historians. Professional integrity in the practice of history requires awareness of one's own biases and a readiness to follow sound method and analysis wherever they may lead. Historians should document their findings and be prepared to make available their sources, evidence, and data, including any documentation they develop through interviews. Historians should not misrepresent their sources. They should report their findings as accurately as possible and not omit evidence that runs counter to their own interpretation. They should not commit plagiarism. They should oppose false or erroneous use of evidence, along with any efforts to ignore or conceal such false or erroneous use. Historians should acknowledge the receipt of any financial support, sponsorship, or unique privileges (including special access to research material) related to their research, especially when such privileges could bias their research findings. They should always acknowledge assistance received from colleagues, students, research assistants, and others, and give due credit to collaborators. Historians should work to preserve the historical record, and support institutions that perform this crucial service. Historians favor free, open, equal, and nondiscriminatory access to archival, library, and museum collections wherever possible. They should be careful to avoid any actions that might prejudice access for future historians. Although they recognize the legitimacy of restricting access to some sources for national security, proprietary, and privacy reasons, they have a professional interest in opposing unnecessary restrictions whenever appropriate. Historians sometimes appropriately agree to restrictive conditions about the use of particular sources. Certain kinds of research, certain forms of employment, and certain techniques (for instance, in conducting oral history interviews) sometimes entail promises about what a historian will and will not do with the resulting knowledge. Historians should honor all such promises. They should respect the confidentiality of clients, students, employers, and others with whom they have a professional relationship. At much as possible, though, they should also strive to serve the historical profession's preference for open access to, and public discussion of, the historical record. They should define any confidentiality requirements before their research begins, and give public notice of any conditions or rules that may affect the content of their work. 4. Plagiarism The word plagiarism derives from Latin roots: plagiarius, an abductor, and plagiare, to steal. The expropriation of another author's work, and the presentation of it as one's own, constitutes plagiarism and is a serious violation of the ethics of scholarship. It seriously undermines the credibility of the plagiarist, and can do irreparable harm to a historian's career. In addition to the harm that plagiarism does to the pursuit of truth, it can also be an offense against the literary rights of the original author and the property rights of the copyright owner. Detection can therefore result not only in sanctions (such as dismissal from a graduate program, denial of promotion, or termination of employment) but in legal action as well. As a practical matter, plagiarism between scholars rarely goes to court, in part because legal concepts, such as infringement of copyright, are narrower than ethical standards that guide professional conduct. The real penalty for plagiarism is the abhorrence of the community of scholars. Plagiarism includes more subtle abuses than simply expropriating the exact wording of another author without attribution. Plagiarism can also include the limited borrowing, without sufficient attribution, of another person's distinctive and significant research findings or interpretations. Of course, historical knowledge is cumulative, and thus in some contexts -- such as textbooks, encyclopedia articles, broad syntheses, and certain forms of public presentation -- the form of attribution, and the permissible extent of dependence on prior scholarship, citation, and other forms of attribution will differ from what is expected in more limited monographs. As knowledge is disseminated to a wide public, it loses some of its personal reference. What belongs to whom becomes less distinct. But even in textbooks a historian should acknowledge the sources of recent or distinctive findings and interpretations, those not yet a part of the common understanding of the profession. Similarly, while some forms of historical work do not lend themselves to explicit attribution (e.g., films and exhibitions), every effort should be made to give due credit to scholarship informing such work. Plagiarism, then, takes many forms. The clearest abuse is the use of another's language without quotation marks and citation. More subtle abuses include the appropriation of concepts, data, or notes all disguised in newly crafted sentences, or reference to a borrowed work in an early note and then extensive further use without subsequent attribution. Borrowing unexamined primary source references from a secondary work without citing that work is likewise inappropriate. All such tactics reflect an unworthy disregard for the contributions of others. No matter what the context, the best professional practice for avoiding a charge of plagiarism is always to be explicit, thorough, and generous in acknowledging one's intellectual debts. All who participate in the community of inquiry, as amateurs or as professionals, as students or as established historians, have an obligation to oppose deception. This obligation bears with special weight on teachers of graduate seminars. They are critical in shaping a young historian's perception of the ethics of scholarship. It is therefore incumbent on graduate teachers to seek opportunities for making the seminar also a workshop in scholarly integrity. After leaving graduate school, every historian will have to depend primarily on vigilant self-criticism. Throughout our lives none of us can cease to question the claims to originality that our work makes and the sort of credit it grants to others. The first line of defense against plagiarism is the formation of work habits that protect a scholar from plagiarism. The plagiarist's standard defense -- that he or she was misled by hastily taken and imperfect notes -- is plausible only in the context of a wider tolerance of shoddy work. A basic rule of good note-taking requires every researcher to distinguish scrupulously between exact quotation and paraphrase. The second line of defense against plagiarism is organized and punitive. Every institution that includes or represents a body of scholars has an obligation to establish procedures designed to clarify and uphold their ethical standards. Every institution that employs historians bears an especially critical responsibility to maintain the integrity and reputation of its staff. This applies to government agencies, corporations, publishing firms, and public service organizations such as museums and libraries, as surely as it does to educational facilities. Usually, it is the employing institution that is expected to investigate charges of plagiarism promptly and impartially and to invoke appropriate sanctions when the charges are sustained. Penalties for scholarly misconduct should vary according to the seriousness of the offense, and the protections of due process should always apply. A persistent pattern of deception may justify public disclosure or even termination of a career; some scattered misappropriations may warrant a formal reprimand. All historians share responsibility for defending high standards of intellectual integrity. When appraising manuscripts for publication, reviewing books, or evaluating peers for placement, promotion, and tenure, scholars must evaluate the honesty and reliability with which the historian uses primary and secondary source materials. Scholarship flourishes in an atmosphere of openness and candor, which should include the scrutiny and public discussion of academic deception. 5. Teaching Teaching is basic to the practice of history. It occurs in many venues: not just classrooms, but museums and historic sites, documentaries and textbooks, newspaper articles, web sites, and popular histories. In its broadest definition, teaching involves the transmission of historical knowledge to people who do not yet have such knowledge. Whether it occurs in the classroom or the public realm, it performs the essential work of assuring that the past remains a part of living memory in the present. Good teaching entails accuracy and rigor in communicating factual information, and strives always to place such information in context to convey its larger significance. Integrity in teaching means presenting competing interpretations with fairness and intellectual honesty. Doing so can support one of the most important goals of teaching: exciting the interest of those who are encountering a new historical topic for the first time, leading them toward the insight that history is a process of living inquiry, not an inert collection of accepted facts. The political, social, and religious beliefs of history teachers necessarily inform their work, but the right of the teacher to hold and express such convictions can never justify falsification, misrepresentation, or concealment, or the persistent intrusion of material unrelated to the subject of the course. Furthermore, teachers should be mindful that students and other audience members have the right to disagree with a given interpretation or point of view. Students should be made aware of multiple causes and varying interpretations. Within the bounds of the historical topic being studied, the free expression of legitimate differences of opinion should always be a goal. Teachers should judge students' work on merit alone. Course offerings, textbooks, and public history presentations should address the diversity of human experience, recognizing that historical accuracy requires attention both to individual and cultural similarities and differences and to the larger global and historical context within which societies have evolved. The American Historical Association is on record as encouraging educational and public history activities to counter harassment and discrimination on campuses and in the public realm. It encourages administrators to speak out vigorously against such incidents. At the same time, the Association disapproves of efforts to limit or punish free speech. We condemn the violation of First Amendment rights to free speech, as well as the harassment and vilification to which individuals have sometimes been subjected for exercising these rights. 6. History in the Public Realm Because interpreting the past is so vital to democratic debate and civic life in the public realm, historians regularly have the opportunity to discuss the implications of their knowledge for concerns and controversies in the present -- including present controversies about past events. It is one of the privileges of our profession to share historical insights and interpretations with a wider public, wherever the locus of our employment. We should welcome the chance to do so, and the institutions that employ historians should recognize the importance of this aspect of our work. Historians should not be subject to institutional or professional penalties for their beliefs and activities, provided they do not misrepresent themselves as speaking for their institutions or their professional organizations when they are not authorized to do so. Practicing history in the public realm presents important challenges, for when historians communicate with a wider public, they must represent not just a particular interpretation or body of facts, but the best practices of the discipline of history itself. This means they must inevitably walk a tightrope in balancing their desire to present a particular point of view with their responsibility to uphold the standards and values that underpin their professional authority as historians. This challenge can be especially complex for public historians, whose daily working lives frequently require multiple levels of accountability, and for historians working in advocacy roles. Public discussions of complex historical questions inevitably translate and simplify many technical details associated with those questions, while at the same time suggesting at least some of the associated complexities and divergent points of view. While it is perfectly acceptable for historians to share their own perspectives with the public, they should also strive to demonstrate how the historical profession links evidence with arguments to build fair-minded, nuanced, and responsible interpretations of the past. The desire to score points as an advocate should never tempt a historian to misrepresent the historical record or the critical methods that the profession uses to interpret that record. Historians who work in government, corporate, and nonprofit institutions, as well as those occasionally entering public arenas as political advisers, expert witnesses, public intellectuals, consultants, legislative witnesses, journalists, or commentators, may face a choice of priorities between professionalism and partisanship. They may want to prepare themselves by seeking advice from other experienced professionals. As historians, they must be sensitive to the complexities of history, the diversity of historical interpretations, and the limits as well as the strengths of their own points of view and experiences and of the discipline itself. In such situations, historians must use sources, including the work of other scholars, with great care and should always be prepared to explain the methods and assumptions in their research; the relations between evidence and interpretation; and alternative interpretations of the subjects they address. 7. Employment The American Historical Association firmly supports fairness and due process in all decisions involving the appointment, promotion, and working conditions of historians. Institutions should develop published rules governing their employment practices, and it should go without saying that they should follow these rules. Although some historians are self-employed, most work for academic institutions, corporations, government agencies, law firms, archives, historical societies, museums, parks, historic preservation programs, or other institutions. To the extent they can influence the policies and practices of their workplace, the AHA encourages historians to do whatever they can to persuade their institutions to accept and enforce rules to ensure equity in conditions of employment. If they work in an academic institution, they should urge it to accept the 1966 Statement on Government of Colleges and Universities, jointly formulated by the American Association of University Professors (AAUP), the American Council on Education, and the Association of Governing Boards of Universities and Colleges. Fairness begins with recruitment. Historians have an obligation to do all possible to ensure that employment opportunities in the field are widely publicized and that all professionally qualified persons have an equal opportunity to compete for those positions. This means not only the placement of job notices in appropriate publications (for example, the AHA's _Perspectives on History_ (http://www.historians.org/Perspectives/index.cfm) ) but also the inclusion in such notices of a completely accurate description of the position and of any contingencies, budgetary or otherwise, that might affect the continued availability of the position. An institution should not deceive possible candidates by omitting qualifications or characteristics that favor certain candidates over others (for example, a preference for unspecified minor fields). If an employer decides to alter a job description or selection criteria, the institution should re-advertise. The AHA strongly discourages institutions from charging application fees for post-doctoral fellowships and other positions, since these discriminate against candidates whose financial resources are limited. Fairness also involves equal treatment of all qualified applicants and procedures that are considerate to all applicants. For example, an employing institution should promptly acknowledge all applications and, as soon as practicable, inform applicants who do not meet the selection criteria. Likewise, it should keep competitive applicants informed of the progress of the search and promptly notify those who are no longer under consideration. It should do everything possible to accommodate finalists in arranging interviews, including the payment of expenses, where appropriate. Finally, it should ensure that those who conduct interviews adhere to professional standards by respecting the dignity of candidates, focusing their questions on the qualifications needed for the position, and avoiding questions that violate federal or state anti-discrimination laws. Employment decisions always involve judgments. But, except in those cases in which federal law allows a specific preference, institutions should base hiring decisions as well as all decisions relating to reappointment, promotion, tenure, apprenticeship, graduate student assistantships, awards, and fellowships solely on professional qualifications without regard to sex, race, color, national origin, sexual orientation, religion, political affiliation, veteran status, age, disability, or marital status. A written contract should follow a verbal offer in a timely manner, and institutions have an obligation to explain as clearly as possible the terms of such contracts. Once signed, a contract should be honored by all parties as both a legal and ethical obligation. Employers have an obligation to clarify all rules and conditions governing employment and promotion. Once employed, any person deserves the professional respect and support necessary for professional growth and advancement. Such respect precludes unequal treatment based on any nonprofessional criteria. In particular, it precludes any harassment or discrimination, which is unethical, unprofessional, and threatening to intellectual freedom. Harassment includes all behavior that prevents or impairs an individual's full enjoyment of educational or workplace rights, benefits, environment, or opportunities, such as generalized pejorative remarks or behavior or the use of professional authority to emphasize inappropriately the personal identity of an individual. Sexual harassment, which includes inappropriate requests for sexual favors, unwanted sexual advances, and sexual assaults, is illegal and violates professional standards. Historians should receive promotions and merit salary increases exclusively on the basis of professional qualifications and achievements. The best way to ensure that such criteria are used is to establish clear standards and procedures known to all members of the institution. An institution should have an established review process, should offer candidates for promotion or merit raises opportunities to substantiate their achievements, should provide early and specific notification of adverse promotion or salary decisions, and should provide an appeal mechanism. Of particularly grave concern to historians are those institutional decisions that lead to disciplinary action -- most important, questions of suspension and dismissal, because they may involve issues of intellectual freedom. All institutions employing historians should develop and follow clearly written procedures governing disciplinary action. These procedures should embody the principles of due process, including adequate mechanisms for fact-finding and avenues for appeal. Academic institutions should adhere to the AAUP's 1940 Statement of Principles on Academic Freedom and Tenure. Other institutions that employ professional historians should provide a comparable standard of due process. Historians who work part time or off the tenure track should receive compensation in proportion to the share of a full-time work load they carry, including a proportionate share of fringe benefits available to their full-time colleagues; they also should have access to institutional facilities and support systems, and appropriate involvement in institutional governance. 8. Reputation and Trust Historians are obligated to present their credentials accurately and honestly in all contexts. They should take care not to misrepresent their qualifications in resumes, applications, or the public record. They should apply the same rigor and integrity in describing their own accomplishments as their profession applies to the historical record itself. The status of a book, article, or other publication that is still in the production pipeline is often an important piece of information for search committees, tenure/promotion review committees, and fellowship committees. Yet the profession has no standardized terminology for works in progress, often rendering their status unclear. The AHA suggests the following lexicon. * "In Press": the manuscript is fully copyedited and out of the author's hands. It is in the final stages of the production process. * "Forthcoming": a completed manuscript has been accepted by a press or journal. * "Under contract to . . .": a press and an author have signed a contract for a book in progress, but the final manuscript has not yet been submitted. * "Submitted" or "under consideration": the book or article has been submitted to a press or journal, but there is as yet no contract or agreement to publish. Historians should not list among the completed achievements on their resumes degrees or honors they have never earned, jobs they have never held, articles or books they have never written or published, or any comparable misrepresentations of their creative or professional work. Historians should be mindful of any conflicts of interest that may arise in the course of their professional duties. A conflict of interest arises when an individual's personal interest or bias could compromise (or appear to compromise) his or her ability to act in accordance with professional obligations. Historians frequently encounter such situations as participants in some form of peer review -- for example, reviewing grant applications, vetting manuscripts for publication, evaluating annual meeting program proposals, or selecting prize or award recipients. Historians should identify and, where appropriate, recuse themselves from any decisions or other actions in which a conflict of interest or the appearance thereof arises; they should avoid situations in which they may benefit or appear to benefit financially at the expense of their professional obligations. An individual should normally refuse to participate in the formal review of work by anyone for whom he or she feels a sense of personal obligation, competition, or enmity. 9. Additional Guidance This Statement on Standards of Professional Conduct offers general guidance about core values and practices of the historical profession. Because no document of this sort could ever be comprehensive, the AHA typically amends this Statement only when some new issue arises that is of such general concern that a formal policy declaration seems warranted. For additional advice about ethics and best practices among professional historians, readers are urged to consult other declarations and publications of the American Historical Association, including best practice statements and wise counsel documents readily available on the _AHA web site_ (http://www.historians.org/governance/pd/index.htm) . Valuable insights can also be gleaned from the publications of several other historical associations, for instance, the Ethics Guidelines of the National Council on Public History; the Statement of Professional Standards and Ethics of the American Association for State and Local History; the Evaluation Guidelines of the Oral History Association; and the Principles and Standards for Federal Historical Programs of the Society for History in the Federal Government, among others. We encourage all historians to uphold and defend their professional responsibilities with the utmost seriousness, and to advocate for integrity and fairness and high standards throughout the historical profession.' ============================================= The documentation makes this a long post . Basically, Let us all do the right thing here on AAHL.If we are unbiased and fair this site can continue to grow. It is ok to disagree in the right way. There need not be harsh words spoken to make a point. Documented facts allow for a factual history. Thank You Glen for doing what you do. It is mostly a thankless job that you inherited from Nancy O. Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila, PA. and soon in Helena,MT NAAAW IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7614. . . . . . . . . . . . Early AA rules From: jaxena77 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/2/2011 4:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Did we ever find any examples of the kind of rules that early AA groups used before the Traditions. I would love to get my hands on the list of 108 rules mentioned in this post, but even a handful of examples would be useful in my research. Thank you! Jackie --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, The Wilsons wrote: > > In the book The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, Tradition 4 talks > about the setup of an AA service complex: a treatment center that would provide financial aid, medical care, recovery help etc. > > It also talks about 61 rules that were drawn up. A fellow at a meeting the other night said that he recalled that at one time he thought he saw a list of 108 different rules that came from various groups. > > Was the AA treatment center really started somewhere? Where was it at? > > So we have the list of 61 rules? > > Bob Wilson > Port Orchard, Washington > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7615. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early AA rules From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/9/2011 2:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII One of the most famous sets of rules is the 1947 list from Little Rock, Arkansas: http://www.silkworth.net/pdfhistory/Little-Rock-Plan-Gives-Prospects-Sep-194 7.pd\ f [25] Also see http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5447 Also see complaints about the Little Rock rules from other AA groups of that time: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1084 But there are other early sets of rules which have survived, rules drawn up by AA groups in various American cities -- probationary periods, interviews by the group, things the beginning had to do, etc., etc. I have read some of them -- I think here in the AAHistoryLovers -- but I can't find any of them now, except for the ones from Little Rock. Can anybody help us here? Glenn Chesnut IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7616. . . . . . . . . . . . Did the Washingtonians -use the Circle and Triangle logo? From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/8/2011 9:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I recently saw an AA history presentation done by Wally Paton and released as a recorded video. At one point in the presentation when Wally is talking about the Washingtonians, memorabilia images flash across the screen. I spotted briefly a medallion or graphic showing a circle and triangle with labels (but not the three legacies) very similar to AA's long cherished image. In fact it looked like a dead ringer! Anyone know anything of this? John IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7617. . . . . . . . . . . . Sufi Muslim meditation and the loving God of the 12 steps From: Fahad Sarfaraz . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/3/2011 12:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ESOTERIC, mystic, and gnostic varieties of AA The twelve step program and the SUFI MUSLIM mystical tradition: connecting with God, entering the divine Love by learning to see the Light (Noor) of God. It does not matter what name you use to address God: Allah, God, Jesus, Bhagwan (Hindu supreme God), or Ram (Hindu avatar of Vishnu). THE LOVE OF GOD is superior to all particular religions, and forms their essence, and the Light of God is the illuminating guide on your path to the love of God. GOD IS LOVE AND LOVE IS PRECIOUS Different Religions - Different Methodologies - Destination is same Learn Spirituality to recognize and approach GOD, whatever religion you belong to. All religions agree upon this that through meditation, it is possible to connect to GOD. There are different ways in different religions but the aim is same. It is respectable to call GOD, no matter you call HIM by any name viz GOD, JESUS, RAM, BHAGWAN or ALLAH. Superior to religions is the "LOVE OF GOD", which is the essence of all religions whereas the Light of God is an illuminating guide in the way. According to the saying of Hazrat Imam Jafar Bin Sadiq a.s. "KNOWLEDGE IS POINT WHICH HAS BEEN SPREAD BY SCHOLARS". And the point is LOVE. The methods of Meditation is given below which is simple and shortest and is the practice of JUST 7 DAYS. The people belonging to all religions can exercise it by the name of their GODs, keeping in mind "THE CREATOR" the one and only ONE, who created the whole universe and us. Dear friends, Try your luck by exercising the methods outlined in the Message just for 7 days and this will awaken your "LATIF-E-QALB" (a spiritual entity), and it start chanting out "Creators" name (ALLAH HU) which will produce Divine energy (NOOR) in your heart. This is not only for Muslims, people of other religion can exercise, keeping in mind "THE CREATOR" the one and only "ONE" who created the universe and us. This message is also available in URDU. If you feel to know further please visit http://www.asiinternationals.com THE METHODS OF PRODUCING LIGHT (NOOR) NO MATTER ANY RELIGION - ALLAH (GOD) IS FOR EVERY ONE In prehistoric times stones would be rubbed together to make fire. Whereas a spark can also be produced by rubbing two metals together. In a similar way electricity is made from water. Similarly by the friction of the blood inside the human body, in other words electric energy is produced by the vibrating heartbeat. In every human being there is present, approximately one and a half volts of electricity due to which the body is energetic. As the heartbeat slows in old age, this reduces the electricity in the body and this in turn also causes a reduction of the energy level in the body. Firstly, the heartbeat has to be made vibrant and pronounced. Some do this by dancing, some by sports and exercise and some people try to do this by meditating and chanting the Name of God Allah. When the heartbeat becomes vibrant and pronounced then by chanting the name of "Allah" try to synchronize it with every heartbeat. Alternatively try to synchronize "Allah" with one heartbeat and Hu with the other. Some time by placing your hand on the heart and when you feel your heartbeat, again try to synchronize the Name "Allah" by chanting it with the rhythm of the heartbeat and imagine that the Name "Allah" is entering the heart. The chanting of" Allah Hu" is better and more effective but if anyone has an objection, or a fear of chanting Hu, then instead of being deprived one should solely use the name Allah, repetitively in the chanting. It is beneficial for people who chant and practice this discipline and who read mantras to physically remain as clean as possible as the: "disrespectful are unfulfilled and the respectful and fulfilled." THE FIRST METHOD OF PRODUCING LIGHT: Write "Allah" on a paper in black ink 66 times and do this exercise for as long as you wish on a daily basis. Soon thereafter, the Word Allah will be transported from the paper and hover over the eyes. Then with one-pointed concentration, attempt to transport the word from the eyes to the heart. THE SECOND METHOD OF PRODUCING LIGHT: Write "Allah" on a zero watt bulb, in yellow. Whilst you are awake or just before sleep, concentrate and try to absorb it into the eyes. When it appears on the eyes then try to transport it to the heart. THE THIRD METHOD OF PRODUCING LIGHT: This method is for those people who have perfect spiritual guides and teachers and who due to their spiritual connection are spiritually assisted by them. Sit alone and imagine that your index finger is a pen. Using your finger and with your concentration, attempt to write Allah on your heart. Call upon your spiritual teacher (spiritually), so that he too may, hold your finger, and write "Allah" on your heart. Continue to do this exercise everyday, until you see Allah written on your heart. "If you are succeeded and your Qalb starts chanting Allah Hu it will chant 24 hours a day, even if you are sleeping, working and will convert your prayers (Namaz) into Namaz-e-Haqiqi and you will enter into Divine Love." Best of Luck. Sarfaraz Ahmed. ahmedsarfaraz82@yahoo.com (ahmedsarfaraz82 at yahoo.com) __________________________________________ FROM THE MODERATOR -- SEE ALSO: http://11thstepmeditation.org/meditation_styles/sufi_muraqaba.php http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noor_%28Sufism%29 Noor is the link which binds being to knowledge in Sufism. The word itself means light. Each particle of light that is reflected of the "mirror of the heart" projects spiritual knowledge according to distinctive types of colors. Noor is the spiritual light of a person. It is considered positive energy, or energy from God, which is supposed to clean a person's inner spiritual being. It emanates primarily from the heart, but can bloom to the whole body. A person's spirituality can be judged by the Noor emanating from him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism Sufism is defined by its adherents as the inner, mystical dimension of Islam ... Classical Sufi scholars have defined Sufism as "a science whose objective is the reparation of the heart and turning it away from all else but God." Alternatively, in the words of the Darqawi Sufi teacher Ahmad ibn Ajiba, "a science through which one can know how to travel into the presence of the Divine, purify one's inner self from filth, and beautify it with a variety of praiseworthy traits." Classical Sufis were characterised by their attachment to dhikr (a practice of repeating the names of God) and asceticism. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7618. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Date and place of first AA meeting in California From: Bruce Kennedy . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/2/2011 6:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In response to Chuck P.s letter asking about the first AA meeting on the West Coast. There is a letter in the GSO Archives in New York by a Ray W. from New Jersey. He convened a gathering on Nov. 21, 1939, at the Clift hotel in San Francisco, of some alcoholics who had written New York for help. In that letter, written to Ruth Hock at GSO after that meeting, Ray describes what happened and who was in attendance: ____________________________________________ The Clift SAN FRANCISCO Nov. 23, ’39 Works Publishing Co. 17 Williams St. Newark, N.J. Miss R. Hock, Sec’y - Dear Miss Hock - You probably think I am an awful piker for not having acknowledged your letters sooner. As a matter of fact I have seen quite a number of individuals whose names you sent - some of them several times. I wont go into detail here except to say that I had three (3) of the best "bets" - Ted C, Dave L, and Don B for several hours with the result that they are going to start a group here and start in by taking care of all the others who wrote you. Dave had his secretary make carbons of the lists you sent and I started them in by having them make some "dates" with some of our prospects over the phone from my room. I talked to them first then turned the phone over to the boys here. Things look better than I would have hoped for. You know, I had the misguided idea that I had been busy at other times in my life, but until I made this trip I didn’t know what it was to be busy. They have been “on my neck” day and night. You will hear from some of them and I will give you all the dope when I get back. (At this point Ray spent two paragraphs on other matters) Will be back Tuesday and give you a ring. Best regards to everyone Ray W ____________________________________________ *That meeting was followed up, in early December 1939, by the first meeting of an offical AA group on the West Coast at 51 Potomac St. in San Francisco. That site is marked with a plaque.* *If more information is desired, I may be able to provide it at the email address below.* *Sincerely* *Bruce K.* *new email address: bruceken1@gmail.com (bruceken1 at gmail.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7619. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Date and place of first AA meeting in California From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/2/2011 9:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello, I served as archivist Mid-Southern California Area 9 for 12 years. Area 9 covers San Bernadino, Riverside, Orange and a small part of L.A. counties. I can say I have never heard even the slightest hint that AA was around So Cal before Kaye Miller's meeting Dec 19, 1939. Members in So Cal have always bowed to the fact that San Francisco held the 1st meeting on the West Coast and we held the 2nd one. The history of AA in So Cal after Kaye Miller's meeting is a little clouded and there are a couple versions of what happen next. If you read the history of AA's start in L.A. in AA Comes of Age and the events in the article from the February 1952 Grapevine you will see two different versions. I am inclining to believe the Grapevine article over AA Comes of Age. Having researched the GSO Archives, I found a number of letters from Kaye to Bill on this subject. Kaye received an advance copy of AA Comes of Age, and in these letters she disputed some of the facts and pleads with Bill to change the version in the new book, but it went to press without any of her changes. It is like a lot of conflicting facts we have found in studding AA's history, this is just one more. The story that's in AA Comes of Age has been the accepted version for 70 plus years, I doubt anyone would be willing to change to a new version. I am sure this example is why we will never have a new history book. L.A is just one of a hundred cities that perhaps has more than one version of how AA started there or who started it. The February 1952 Grapevine has some great info and the entire magazine is dedicated to two cities, Los Angeles and San Francisco. I am not sure what the article says about events in San Francisco, but it might be worth checking out. Hope this helps, Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7620. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldtimer meetings From: Steve Wells . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/3/2011 2:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Steve Wells and Edgar C - - - - Steve Wells (swjhawk at yahoo.com) I attend such a meeting weekly. I don't know where or how they began. The topic is always steps 10-12. The format is the same as a "real" AA meeting and the requirement (established before I first attended) was/is 25 years of continuous sobriety. My opinion only, is that we share things that might "scare" newer members and that it has a selfish purpose of supporting each other rather than helping the newcomer. If I convey mixed feelings about it, your perception is accurate. - - - - From: edgarc@aol.com (edgarc at aol.com) Answering your questions for us here in Sarasota/Bradenton, Florida, USA: 1. We started honoring old-timers in 1979 2. Showing newcomers what could be done by paying attention to the program. 3. Dinner, followed by a speaker, once a year. From 500 to 700 attend. 4. 25 consecutive years. They get a free dinner at the dinner noted in point 3. About 150 old-timers attended that. Edgar C, Sarasota, Florida IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7621. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early AA rules From: Dov W . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/9/2011 6:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Dov W (dovwcom at gmail.com) There is a claim of a xerox copy of requirements available from GSO http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4723 Then there are the beginners meetings which were a membership requirement described in Box 459: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1070 and 1945 GV articles on groups other than Little Rock with their own requirements: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1074 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1071 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1078 and another thread on beginner's groups: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2839 and Wally P's talk which seems based on the Box 459 but adds more: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1627 It strikes me that these were doing for the fellowship what Dr. Bob and Clarence S. used to do when they would decide if the new prospect is serious, whether he can come in without hospitalization and the indoctrination the newcomer would get in the hospital. _______________________________________________ Orig. message from Glenn Chesnut (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) One of the most famous sets of rules is the 1947 list from Little Rock, Arkansas: http://www.silkworth.net/pdfhistory/Little-Rock-Plan-Gives-Prospects-Sep-194 7.pd\ f [25] Also see http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5447 Also see complaints about the Little Rock rules from other AA groups of that time: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1084 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7622. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why was the end of Fitz Mayo''s story removed? From: Dov . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/5/2011 11:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have not seen anything specific to the editing of these last paragraphs and it is theoretically possible that the editing notes used in preparation for the second edition Big Book in AAWS archives may just shed a clue. That said there is general information on the editing process for the Second Edition stories - mostly done by Bill W himself - detailed in a report prepared by AAWS on Big Book history in advance of the Fourth Edition which drew on the Archive collection of Bill's letters on the Second Edition changes and his notes in a Big Book for that purpose. The report is quoted in this message http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/430 Reading through the material in that message, it seems to me that two of the points Bill made may be relevant to these last paragraphs of Fitz M's story. First here's a piece that gives an overview of Bill's editing vision: "In June 14, 1954, letter... Bill wrote: "The story section of the Big Book is far more important than most of us think. It is our principle means of identifying with the reader outside of A. A.. it is the written equivalent of hearing speakers at an A. A. meeting; it is our show window of results. To increase the power and variety of this display to the utmost should be, therefore, no routine or hurried job. The best will be none too good. The difference between 'good' and 'excellent' can be the difference between prolonged misery and recovery, between life and death, for the reader outside A. A."" To me, two possible reasons for the edits on Fitz M's story are: 1) Sensitive material "There were some cautions enumerated by Bill in considering the revision of the Big Book: "The main purpose of the revision is to bring the story section up to date, to portray more adequately a cross section of those who have found help -- the audience for the book is people who are coming to Alcoholics Anonymous now. Those who are here have already heard our stories. Since the audience for the book is likely to be newcomers, anything from the point of view of content or style that might offend or alienate those who are not familiar with the program should be carefully eliminated." Another letter from Bill accompanied all the changes planned for the Second Edition of the A. A. book and enumerates these suggested changes with the caveat "Do any of the stories or titles contain material that might repel any considerable number of sensitive alcoholic readers? And if so, what changes are suggested?" In another letter... "AA experience shows that we have to identify with the people on the basis on where they think they are -- not where we think they ought to be."" It seems to me that phrases in each of these paragraphs may have been considered too religious for some 1955 newcomers: "God produces harmony in those who receive His Spirit and follow Its dictates" "a host of other things tell me of the glory of God" "a greater love for Our Father in heaven" It may also be worth remembering that at the time of the Big Book writing Fitz had insisted that the book name Jesus as God and back then, when AA's message as a whole was just being established those last paragraphs may have seemed very mild in comparison and a good compromise. By 1955, by which time, AA's doctrine-free Broad Highway was well-established, it's very likely that they seemed much more doctrinal than they had back in 1939. 2) Too advanced "In one letter to an individual who was interested in sending his story to him, Bill writes, "As you are probably aware the stories we need will be of the straight AA variety; the kind which would be most effective with the beginner on our program. We are looking for straight personal narratives which describes the drinking history, how the newcomer arrived in Alcoholics Anonymous, how AA, affected him, and what A. A. has since accomplished for him. For this purpose, we are not, of course, interested in the more advanced or specialized talks, the lecture or spread-eagle oratory type of talk, we can't very well use for this particular purpose."" It's just possible that even if those last paragraphs were not considered potentially religiously triggering for newcomers, or at least in addition to such considerations, those last paragraphs may just have been considered to be too advanced in their description of spirituality for the newcomer and too specialised to be useful. Of course this is just my speculation based on general information we have from the AAWS report. It is possible that notes in the Archives could shed specific light on the removal of those paragraphs and resolve your question with certainty. So why not contact AAWS? --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "mykeblanch" wrote: > > Hi, I was curious if anyone knew why the the last 3 paragraphs of Fitz Mayo's story (Our Southern Friend) were removed after the 1st edition? They seem so inspiring, so I thought I would ask the question. > > - - - - > > For the paragraphs which were removed, see > http://silkworth.net/bbstories/226.html > > < > Today as I become more harmonized within, I become more in tune with all of God's wonderful creation. The singing of the birds, the sighing of the wind, the patter of raindrops, the roll of thunder, the laughter of happy children, add to the symphony with which I am in tune. The heaving ocean, the driving rain, autumn leaves, the stars of heaven, the perfume of flowers, music, a smile, and a host of other things tell me of the glory of God. > > There are periods of darkness, but the stars are shining, no matter how black the night. There are disturbances, but I have learned that if I seek patience and open-mindedness, understanding will come. And with it, direction by the Spirit of God. The dawn comes and with it more understanding, the peace that passes understanding, and the joy of living that is not disturbed by the wildness of circumstances or people around me. Fears, resentments, pride, worldly desires, worry, and self-pity no longer possess me. Ever-increasing are the number of true friends, ever-growing is the capacity for love, ever-widening is the horizon of understanding. And above all else comes a greater thankfulness to, and a greater love for Our Father in heaven.>> > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7623. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Date and place of first AA meeting in California From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/6/2011 1:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Chuck, From the list of the first 25 AA groups. The first meeting was in San Francisco - brought to California courtesy of a member of the New Jersey Group (AA Group #4) later know as the South Orange Group. A.A Group # 10 San Francisco, California So it happened, that when an AA member from New York, Ray W., came to San Francisco for a sales training course in November of that year he brought with him a list of those who had made inquiries. Among them was Mrs. Oram's boarder, Ted. From his room in the Clift Hotel on Geary Street, Ray called those on his list. He finally arranged for some of them to meet with him in his room on Tuesday, November 21, 1939. It was there that the first meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous on the West Coast was held. Aside from Ray and Ted, there were two others present, Don B. and Dave L. and the meeting lasted about two hours. As Ray mentioned, it had become clear that they would need to form an AA group in San Francisco, where they all could meet regularly. Mrs. Oram offered her kitchen as a meeting place. So shortly before Christmas, 1939, the first AA group, the "San Francisco Group" began meeting in Mrs. Oram's kitchen, and later in various members' homes. In October of 1940 they found a more or less permanent site for their meetings in the Telegraph Hill Community House at 1736 Stockton Street in North Beach. (www.aasf.org) AA's First Meeting on the West Coast (Adapted from C.N.C.A History, prepared by the CNCA Archives Committee, September 1984) Authors note: Ray W. is Ray Wood from the New Jersey Group of A.A. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7624. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sufi Muslim meditation and the loving God of the 12 steps From: intuited . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/9/2011 5:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you so much for this! It is very valuable information. I would love to know your thoughts about the steps and the Sufi practice. Has there been a history of application to the steps/meetings? The 11th step is obvious but I'm thinking of the 1st-3rd steps and the levels of surrender. Love to hear more. Amelia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7625. . . . . . . . . . . . Story of businessman who quit for 25 years in Big Book From: Roy Levin . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/7/2011 2:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In one of Jimmy Burwell's tapes that I have, he mentions that original draft-writer Bill and the ensuing group conscience put into the book a theme from Peabody's "Common Sense of Drinking" that once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. They did this because they "intuitively" thought they should make that statement. Burwell then goes on to state that he and other early members including Parkhurst and Bill and Mayhew went around to local doctors in New York and neighboring states just to make sure, and verify that what they went out on a limb to state in the book was in fact true. All the local doctors who ran dry-out wards and clinics backed them up. The medical men who, like Silkworth, dealt especially with alcoholics maintained that they never saw one who was of the "real alcoholic" type mentioned in our book, do an about face and resume some controlled or normal drinking. I did read in "Common Sense" Peabody's story of the businessman who quit drinking to "make his million dollars" and succeeded, and then resumed drinking to die a few years later. Peabody's exemplar-drunk quit for about five years, not the twenty-five stated in the story about the businessman in our basic text. If Bill lifted the story from Peabody, as some believe, then he exaggerated the story's timeline for dramatic effect; as Burwell maintains Bill did in saying "We are a hundred men and women who have recovered" in our Big Book. Burwell in a 1951 recording states emphatically that at the time of the publication of our book, he believes there were about forty alkies sober between New York and Akron. ____________________________________________ FROM THE MODERATOR: FIVE YEARS SOBER: Peabody, Common Sense of Drinking, PDF page 69 http://www.aabibliography.com/pdffiles/CommonSenseDrinkPeabody.pdf "Some years ago there lived a man who decided to give up drinking until he could make a million dollars, at which time he intended to drink in moderation. It took him five years -- of sobriety -- to make the million; then he began his 'moderate' drinking. In two or three years he lost all his money, and in another three he died of alcoholism." TWENTY-FIVE YEARS SOBER: Big Book pages 32-33 A man of thirty was doing a great deal of spree drinking. He was very nervous in the morning after these bouts and quieted himself with more liquor. He was ambitious to succeed in business, but saw that he would get nowhere if he drank at all. Once he started, he had no control whatever. He made up his mind that until he had been successful in business and had retired, he would not touch another drop. An excep- tional man, he remained bone dry for twenty-five years and retired at the age of fifty-five, after a suc- cessful and happy business career. Then he fell vic- tim to a belief which practically every alcoholic has --that his long period of sobriety and self-discipline had qualified him to drink as other men. Out came his carpet slippers and a bottle. In two months he was in a hospital, puzzled and humiliated. He tried to regulate his drinking for a little while, making several trips to the hospital meantime. Then, gathering all his forces, he attempted to stop altogether and found he could not. Every means of solving his problem which money could buy was at his disposal. Every attempt failed. Though a robust man at retirement, he went to pieces quickly and was dead within four years. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7626. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early AA rules From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/9/2011 10:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is the application for the Montreal Group that is in the book Beware the First Drink! The Washington Temperance Movement and Alcoholics Anonymous by Leonard U. Blumberg and William L. Pittman IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7627. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Story of businessman who quit for 25 years in Big Book From: Shakey Mike . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/9/2011 11:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am not familiar with Mayhew. Do you mean John Henry Fitzhugh Mayo, Jimmy's childhood friend who sent Jackie Williams to 12 step Jimmy? YIS Shakey Mike Gwirtz Going to Helena MT for NAAAW15 - - - - On Sep 7, 2011, at 2:30 AM, Roy Levin wrote: > In one of Jimmy Burwell's tapes that I have, he mentions that original draft-writer Bill and the ensuing group conscience put into the book a theme from Peabody's "Common Sense of Drinking" that once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic .... Burwell then goes on to state that he and other early members including Parkhurst and Bill and Mayhew went around to local doctors in New York and neighboring states just to make sure, and verify that what they went out on a limb to state in the book was in fact true. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7628. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and Niacin -- how many subjects? what numerical results? From: David Merritt . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2011 9:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Important Medical Warning My cardiologist gave me niacin for high cholesterol. After several days, my blood felt like it was on fire, my face was burning up. My doctor stated I was having an allergic reaction to the niacin. Also do not drink coffee after taking niacin, you may also have a burning, flushing reaction. Dave M > > > > > ________________________________ From: Sally Brown Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2011 11:40 PM Subject: Re: Bill W. and Niacin -- how many subjects? what numerical results? IMPORTANT MEDICAL WARNING: Some 30 years ago, a fellow AA from Los Angeles told me about the wonders of niacin. Sounded like a good idea to me. After all, Bill W himself had recommended it. My friend said to start with 100 mg/day and gradually increase to 900 mg/day. So I did. At the max dose, I suddenly started vomiting every morning while on a week-long business trip. Bummer! I'd never even had that affliction when I was drinking. But not until the end of the week did I finally begin to wonder if the niacin was responsible. As soon as I got home, I checked with my doctor, who promptly ordered a liver blood panel. She knew all about niacin's poisonous potential. Fortunately, my liver was ok. Needless to say, I immediately stopped the niacin. Caveat emptor!!!!! Shalom - Sally Brown ________________________________ Original message #7600 from Dougbert http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7600 Bill W. and Niacin -- how many subjects? what numerical results? Bill W. conducted a study of the value of Niacin (B3) to overcome the cravings of alcohol. I was told that Bill W. had great success by giving alcoholics 3000 mg. of Niacin (B3), and witnessed diminished cravings by every alcoholic who took Niacin (B3). Can you tell me how many alcoholics participated in Bill W's study? Can you share the results? In Fellowship Doug IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7629. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and Niacin -- how many subjects? what numerical results? From: edcasey74 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2011 1:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Unless your friend (who told you about niacin) was a doctor, caveat emptor, indeed! "This does not mean that we disregard human health measures." We take them to those who know what they're talking about. "God has abundantly supplied this world with fine doctors, psychologists, and practitioners of various kinds." This is where the book directs me to take my "human health" issues. In other words, not just anyone in the fellowship, or anyone in this forum. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7630. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early AA rules From: Dov W . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/11/2011 2:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dov W (dovwcom at gmail.com) sent in a note reminding us of the great piece in the Grapevine on an early California attempt to set up an AA organization with complex rules. That Grapevine article was reprinted in the AAHistoryLovers in Message #1353 from t (tcumming at airmail.net) Grapevine, July 1969, from 'Around AA' column: In 1940, we organized AA in California (not knowing any better). We had a president, a vice-president, a membership committee, membership rules. We also incorporated AA for the whole of the state. We were going to give out charters for starting groups. We even put in Roberts' Rules of Order for a while (talks limited to three minutes, etc.). Well, all hell broke loose. Mort, the president, couldn't be at a meeting, so he asked someone other than the VP to run the meeting. This made the VP mad, and he got drunk (haven't seen him since). The secretary's husband got drunk because he wasn't given a title (he rejoined five years later). The membership committee got mad because the people they screened out came anyway (we wanted only "pure alkies"). We had a "goon squad" for the slippers. When someone slipped, the goon squad would find him, take him home, and get him sober (whether he wanted to get sober or not). One night, Mort got a call from two members who had slipped. He sent two of the goon squad to save them. An hour later, he got a call from one of the squad. They were drunk also. He sent four more goons. Another call. Now there were eight drunks, and so on. It damn near wiped out the group! Finally, we took stock and figured out we were all chiefs and no Indians. So we threw out all the titles and committees. For a membership committee, we figured we had the best in the world: John Barleycorn and Mama Fate. They worked 24 hours a day, double time on the weekends, and triple time on holidays. Given enough days, they would send us all the drunks we needed. As for titles, we figured the "big man" had no place in AA. As for the proper use of money and where its misuse began, we found that out in 1941, the hard way. When the local pastors began to help us, we became affluent; the mother group had four or five hundred members, and we accumulated about $500 in the bank. Mort announced this to the group and asked them what to do with it. All hell broke loose again! Every member had an opinion and fought to get his way. For three Friday nights in a row, all a newcomer heard about was what to do with $500. Then our treasurer (wiser than his AA years) drew the money out of the bank and sent it to AA headquarters in New York. The next Friday night, when the fight started, he got up and said we had no money, therefore no problem. -- C.W., Whittier, California IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7631. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sufi Muslim meditation and the loving God of the 12 steps From: Bryan S. Reid . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/9/2011 7:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you. I'd love to learn more as well. Bryan ==================================== FROM THE MODERATOR: Sufi Muslim dance can be used to strengthen the heartbeat so that we can write the name of God our Creator on our hearts, enter the realm of God's all-encompassing love, and synchronize the repetition of God's name with the beating of our hearts. sufi dance meditation vidhi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEdCXRGJuM8 Rumi - Turning Esctatic: Scene http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjSig4DxU_M&feature=related The Sufi Whirling Dervishes of Istanbul http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_Cf-ZxDfZA&feature=related Sufi Dance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jsSdelV7Qg The Mevlana Rumi derwishes of Damascus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFIQMM8bZQk&feature=related ==================================== ORIGINAL MESSAGE: On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 9:37 AM, Fahad Sarfaraz wrote: ESOTERIC, mystic, and gnostic varieties of AA The twelve step program and the SUFI MUSLIM mystical tradition: connecting with God, entering the divine Love by learning to see the Light (Noor) of God. It does not matter what name you use to address God: Allah, God, Jesus, Bhagwan (Hindu supreme God), or Ram (Hindu avatar of Vishnu). THE LOVE OF GOD is superior to all particular religions, and forms their essence, and the Light of God is the illuminating guide on your path to the love of God. GOD IS LOVE AND LOVE IS PRECIOUS The methods of Meditation is given below which is simple and shortest and is the practice of JUST 7 DAYS. The people belonging to all religions can exercise it by the name of their GODs, keeping in mind "THE CREATOR" the one and only ONE, who created the whole universe and us. This will awaken your "LATIF-E-QALB" (a spiritual entity), and it start chanting out "Creators" name (ALLAH HU) which will produce Divine energy (NOOR) in your heart. This is not only for Muslims, people of other religion can exercise, keeping in mind "THE CREATOR" the one and only "ONE" who created the universe and us. Electric energy is produced by the vibrating heartbeat. In every human being there is present, approximately one and a half volts of electricity due to which the body is energetic. As the heartbeat slows in old age, this reduces the electricity in the body and this in turn also causes a reduction of the energy level in the body. Firstly, the heartbeat has to be made vibrant and pronounced. Some do this by dancing, some by sports and exercise and some people try to do this by meditating and chanting the Name of God Allah. When the heartbeat becomes vibrant and pronounced then by chanting the name of "Allah" try to synchronize it with every heartbeat. Alternatively try to synchronize "Allah" with one heartbeat and Hu with the other. Some time by placing your hand on the heart and when you feel your heartbeat, again try to synchronize the Name "Allah" by chanting it with the rhythm of the heartbeat and imagine that the Name "Allah" is entering the heart. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7632. . . . . . . . . . . . When did Towns Hospital Close? From: bill@athenararebooks.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/12/2011 5:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can anyone tell me when Towns Hospital closed? I see that in message 6019, Bill White asked if anyone had documentation to support a closing date, but there don't seem to have been any responses to his request. Does anyone know the closing date? And, if so, can they tell us how they know that? Thanks, Old Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7633. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Herbert Wallace From: Dov . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/13/2011 2:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII History Detectives Episode 7, 2006: Alcoholics Anonymous Letter Laurel, Maryland Gwen: Our next story investigates a strange letter that takes us to the early days of one of the 20th century's most significant social movements. From colonial times to the present day, drinking has often been an accepted and even celebrated part of American culture. But the social and economic toll from compulsive or so-called alcoholic drinking has always been a painful reality, too. In the mid-1930s, a new approach to alcoholism was advanced by a small band of recovering drunks. Led by a failed Wall Street broker, Bill Wilson, Alcoholics Anonymous made the controversial claim that compulsive drinking was a medical and spiritual disease, not a moral failing. Today, with an estimated 2 million members in 150 countries, A.A. is the most well-known recovery program in the world. Almost 60 years after the birth of A.A., a man from Laurel, Maryland, has a letter that might shed light on a moment when the very existence of the organization hung in the balance. Guy Miler: my mother had told us as young kids my grandfather had some involvement in the beginnings of A.A., but being young kids, we really thought that was -- okay, that's kind of neat, but didn't think too much about it. Gwendolyn Wright: I'm Gwendolyn Wright, and I'm meeting Guy Miler to get the story behind this mysterious letter. Okay, "The Alcoholic Foundation, 1942. Dear Mrs. Wallace, we of the A.A. group have never had a better friend, nor a stauncher one, than Herb when the going was hard." Guy tells me that Herb Wallace was a well-to-do customs attorney in New York City. Guy: You'll see it's a very nice letter of condolence to my grandmother upon my grandfather's death, Herbert Wallace. It's signed by Bill Wilson, one of the co-founders of A.A., and the language there suggests he's just very grateful for whatever my grandfather's support was. Gwen: Tell me exactly what you'd like for me to find out. Guy: Well, I'd love for you to find out what my grandfather's involvement was with A.A. that would prompt such a nice letter from Bill Wilson. Gwen: well, I have to ask the question: do you think he was an alcoholic? Was he a member of A.A.? Guy: I don't think so. My mother never mentioned that to us, and it's not something that I think she would have kept secret. She did say that his connection may have been through a group called the Oxford Group. My grandmother, I think, at the time, thought it was some weird religious cult. Gwen: Hmm, well, I'm curious. Your grandfather may tell us something about the beginnings of this organization that is now so powerful. The letter's authenticity doesn't seem to be an issue. This stationery looks period, and it's been in Guy's family since 1942. But why would a supposedly sober well-to-do customs lawyer have been involved with down-and-out alcoholics and the beginnings of A.A.? Okay, thanks very much. Bye. Researching an anonymous organization is going to be quite a challenge. I just got off the phone with the A.A. offices, and they couldn't give me anything on Wallace, but they did have the names of a few experts on the early history of the organization. I'm at Rutgers University's Center of Alcohol Studies. Hi, you're Barbara? Clinical psychologist Dr. Barbara McCrady tells me that before Alcoholics Anonymous came along, so-called problem drinkers were often viewed as weak-willed or as sinners. Some zealots saw banning alcohol as the only solution. Barbara MccCrady: In the Temperance Movement, people talk about demon rum. So the -- you know, the push really became, more and more over time, to get rid of the substance rather than trying to help the individuals, and that's when the 18th amendment, which was prohibition, came into effect. Gwen: In 1935, a failed Wall Street stockbroker Bill Wilson, and an Ohio physician, Dr. Bob Smith, started what would eventually become known as Alcoholics Anonymous. Both had been fall-down drunks who couldn't get sober no matter how hard they tried. Talking with each other, the two men came to believe that alcoholics weren't sinners of weak will, but had an illness that could be controlled if they supported each other. Barbara: The big shift in terms of what A.A. does is shift from saying it's the substance, the evil drug to saying people who are alcoholic have problems within themselves. Gwen: Wilson and Smith stayed sober for the rest of their lives. Wilson wrote A.A.'s famous 12 steps, which are outlined in the organization's main text, known as the Big Book. The steps start with admitting one is powerless over alcohol and asking God or some higher power for help. Barbara: But the program itself is very clear that your higher power can be anything. It can be Buddha. It can be – Gwen: It can be the A.A. Barbara: Yeah, it can be the power of the group. It can be the photograph on your mantle. But the core is to say, "I couldn't do it on my own. I need to rely on more than myself in order to recover." Gwen: Barbara's description of A.A.'s spiritual approach reminds me that Guy said his grandfather may have belonged to a religious organization called the Oxford Group. Was there a religious orientation at the very beginning of A.A.? Barbara: Well, Bill Wilson, as I understand it, got sober through the Oxford Groups, a nondenominational but Christian evangelical organization. Gwen: That's fascinating, because the person I'm trying to find the link into the A.A. about is a man named Herbert Wallace, who was a member of the Oxford Group. I want to find out more about this Oxford Group and its possible links to A.A. Mel Barger is the author of several books on A.A. history. He tells me the Oxford Group had begun at Oxford University in the 1910s and became popular in England and the United States between the world wars. Mel Barger: They had four absolutes that they believed in: absolute love, purity, honesty, and unselfishness, but they prided themselves on not being tied to any denomination or any political party or anything like that. Gwen: But the group became controversial after its founder, Frank Buckman, praised Adolf Hitler in 1936, and Mel says that the group was also criticized as a social club for the upper classes. Meetings often held In posh hotels or country estates were sometimes called "dinner-jacket revivals." Mel: Frank Buckman had a reputation of being drawn to wealthy people. When he was accused of not reaching the down-and-outers, we would say that there were up-and-outers that he had to reach. Gwen: It sounds as if guy's grandfather, Herbert Wallace, who was a successful lawyer, would have been a typical Oxford Group member. But by the end of his drinking days, Bill Wilson was a different story. Mel: By the early 1930s, Bill Wilson had become a hopeless drunk, mainly supported by his wife, who had a job in a department store, and the turning point came when an old friend called on him in late 1934. Gwen: That friend, a former drinking buddy, had finally gotten sober by finding religion with the Oxford Group. Looking down the barrel of an almost certain alcoholic death, Bill Wilson drank up the story of his friend's salvation. Mel: And this made a profound impression upon Wilson and he had this illumination, spiritual experience, whatever you want to call it. But whatever it was, it changed his life. He never drank again. Gwen: Mel says Bill Wilson and his wife, Lois, joined the Oxford Group and embraced its spiritual ideals. Mel: Their principles were what became the 12 steps of A.A.: seeking guidance from a higher power, helping others, admitting your faults. It all came from the Oxford Group. I'd like to show you something that's pretty important in A.A. history. Gwen: OK. Mel: This is 182 Clinton Street here in Brooklyn, and this is where Bill and Lois lived for nine years from 1930 to 1939. Gwen: In the fall of 1935, Bill laid the unlikely foundations for a modern medical success story. He discovered that by inviting helpless alcoholics home, while occasionally he could help them, most importantly his selfless effort somehow kept him sober, too. Mel: So in this house, they had some of their first meetings, the meetings that eventually became A.A. Gwen: But how does Guy's grandfather fit into the story? Let me show you that letter that I told you about. I'd like you to take a look. It's a letter of condolence from Bill Wilson to the wife of Herbert Wallace written in 1942. Mel: Well, this is a very warm letter, and Bill was pretty good at this sort of thing. Gwen: So have you ever heard of Herbert Wallace? Mel: No, I never heard of him. I recognize two of the names here as early A.A. members. Gwen: So you know all the other names? Mel: Yes. Gwen: But you don't know Herbert Wallace. Mel: No. Gwen: I'm researching some early histories of A.A. and the Oxford Group, but I'm not finding any mention of Wallace. Ha! Here's one: page 173. It simply mentions that Wallace caused Bill Wilson to take some public-speaking classes at the downtown athletic club. I'm not sure what to make of that. Let me see if Wilson's wife, Lois, has any clues in her memoir. Huh! She mentions having taken a Dale Carnegie course on public speaking. She only refers to a Herbert W. In A.A. parlance, but that's likely the same person, especially since it's also in reference to a public-speaking class. I'll see what I can find out. I show Guy's letter to William Borchert, author of the Lois Wilson story. You ever heard of Wallace? He's never heard of Wallace either, but he's intrigued by the references to A.A.'s founder taking Dale Carnegie classes. William Borchet: It wouldn't surprise me. I guess he thought this could help him win friends and influence people, which is what he really wanted to do. Gwen: Bill also tells me something that makes Wilson's friendship with Wallace even more of a mystery. As Wilson reached into the gutter to help fellow alcoholics, the snobbish Oxford Group turned its nose up at Wilson and his lowbrow mission. William: After a while, the Oxford Group didn't like Bill bringing his drunks along with him to Oxford Group meetings. Gwen: Bill and Lois soon felt unwelcome. Would it be fair, then, to say, that the Oxford Group froze Bill and Lois out? William: Oh, absolutely, people weren't talking to them anymore, you know. Gwen: Wilson left the Oxford Group in 1937. The fledgling A.A. was barely surviving, and Wilson was courting the poorhouse. William: Well, he didn't have a job. He was trying to build this organization of, you know, ragtag drunks. They couldn't exactly go to the Bank of America for a loan, and they were living hand-to-mouth. Gwen: Bill and Lois were no longer able to pay the mortgage on their Brooklyn home. William: They lost the house in 1939, and for the next two years, they moved 52 times living on the largess of their friends in A.A. it was a terrible situation. Gwen: It's fascinating to see how -- how fragile it was in those early years. It could have not happened. William: Absolutely, it could have fallen apart anytime. Gwen: WasBill trying to approach people who had wealth because this Wallace did have money? William: Absolutely, Bill, in the beginning, felt that they -- they needed money to grow. Gwen: Bill tells me that in these early years, A.A. got a small amount of financial support from some influential people, including John D. Rockefeller. But Wallace was an Oxford Group man and Wilson had been kicked out of that organization. So I'm not sure what to make of it all. William: Well, Bill Wilson's papers are all in the archives at stepping stones, which is the home where they lived from 1941 on. So you might find something there. Gwen: After years of hardship, the Wilsons finally found stability at the stepping stones farm outside New York. A wealthy benefactor helped them buy the property in the early 1940s. It's now a museum and houses Wilson's personal papers. At first, I don't find anything connecting Wallace to A.A. then I make a discovery that may explain Guy's mystery letter. Well, Guy, this has been a fascinating journey for me through this early history. And I can tell you that, that hunch you had that there may be some connection between the Oxford Group and the A.A. is absolutely correct. I have a letter to show you. It's from your grandfather to Bill Wilson. This letter, it's short, but it tells us a lot. It's from Wallace -- "cordially yours, Herbert Wallace" -- toBill. He's lending him some money, but the most important thing is the date, February 3, 1938. He's continuing his support of Wilson and of what Wilson is doing at a point after the break with the Oxford Group. Herb Wallace is indeed being the staunchest of friends at a very hard time. Guy: Well, this is fabulous. Gwen: I tell Guy that just as many believe A.A. offers hope to alcoholics when they are at their lowest ebb, his grandfather had provided support to Wilson at a critical time. What I really want to underline is it's not just that he's giving him the money, which is critical at that time, but he's giving him the friendship that Wilson then talks about in his letter of condolence to your grandmother. We could say that without your grandfather and other people like him, the A.A. might never have existed. Guy: Oh, wow. Now that's going some. [ laughs ] That's tremendous. Gwen: That make you feel proud? Guy: Yeah, and I'm not even sure if my mother knows that he had that much influence. It also makes me think about that condolence letter a little differently. Actually, much differently know knowing what it was based on. I'm going to treasure it even more than I have and not just keep it in a drawer somewhere. I think I'm going to frame it and hang it on the wall. I'm proud. [ chuckles ] Gwen: That's good. In keeping with A.A.'s tenet of anonymity, Wilson would not allow his full name or image to appear in the media, but upon his death in 1971, the New York Times published his obituary on the front page. Many believe Bill Wilson influenced modern perceptions of alcoholism more than any other individual http://www-tc.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/static/media/transcripts/201\ 1-05-11/407_aaletter.pdf [26] _______________________________________________ --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Hart" wrote: > > The History Detectives episode described is on at 9 p.m. Monday night in Tampa also, repeating on Aug 1 and 3, so the 9 p.m. time on Monday may be fairly universal, at least for the Eastern time zone. Doug _______________________________________________ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mel Barger > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 5:19 AM > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Wallace > > > Hi Mitch, > Herb Wallace was an export lawyer in New York. The letter in question was actually a letter of condolence to Herb's wife, as Herb had just passed on. > He appears to have been an Oxford Grouper who remained on good terms with Bill and the other alcoholics who had left that fellowship. I believe Herb's grandson found the letter and must have submitted it to History Detectives. > The show is scheduled to appear here in Toledo at 9 p.m. Monday, July 31st. It may be on different times in other places. I was interviewed for the program, though not as an AA member. (I checked with GSO prior to accepting the assignment.) The interviewer was Gwen Wright, who appears regularly on this show. Much of the interview is in front of Bill's former home at 182 Clinton Street in Brooklyn. It will probably be obvious to AA members that I'm in the fellowship, but I was told that this was okay if I wasn't identified as a member. > I didn't know anything about History Detectives until this came up and I've seen only two programs. But it is an interesting show and brings in a lot of good history with it. They do three segments during the hour, and this one is titled "Alcoholics Anonymous Letter." I hope our History Lovers will watch it and send me their comments. > Mel Barger _______________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mitchell K." mitchell_k_archivist@... > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 12:18 AM > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Wallace > > >I recently heard that there was a PBS television show called History Detectives airing a show about a letter from Bill Wilson to a Herbert Wallace of Maryland thanking him for his staunch support of AA. It was written in 1942 and is on Alcoholic Foundation letterhead. I haven't seen the show but they are repeated now and again. > > > > Anyone have any information on Mr Wallace? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7634. . . . . . . . . . . . Towns Hospital closing From: Charlie C . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/14/2011 7:26:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I just looked this up in the NY Times Historical database I have access to, and there is an article from June 6, 1965 titled "Drying out hospital for problem drinkers closes." The hospital had, according to the article, closed the week before. Apparently the closing was largely due to financial reasons, the hospital being unable to work with insurance companies like Blue Cross, new hospital department regulations, etc. I don't know much about this sort of thing, but it sounds like a family business unable to keep up with changing business conditions, including the emergence of more and more competition - lots of hospitals were beginning to open detox units in the later 1960s for example, something they hadn't had before. (Personal note: my father-in-law was a doctor who started one of the first detox units in the Albany, New York, area at the hospital he was then director of in the late '60s. The irony was that he died in that same unit 20 years later of alcoholism ... ) The hospital began in 1909 at 119 West 81st Street, and in 1914 moved to Central Park West. They had a special rate for AA's: $125 for a 5 day stay! Some interesting bio on Charles Towns, the founder, who died 2/21/1947. He apparently resided in China for some years at the turn of the last century and became interested in the problem of narcotics addiction, specifically opium. When he came back to the US he worked in Bellevue Hospital and then opened his own private hospital. His son ran the hospital after his death until it closed. Charlie Cowling Clarkson, New York ************************************* "Age is a case of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it don't matter." -- Satchel Paige ************************************* IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7635. . . . . . . . . . . . Henrietta Sieberling''s grave location From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/13/2011 3:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I moved to Central Kentucky a couple of months ago and one of my "quests" was to find Henrietta Sieberling's grave site. She was from Lawrenceburg, Kentucky, a small city just west of Lexington and south of Frankfort. Thanks to some good directions from fellow A.A.s, I found the site today and am writing this so, at least, it will be in the group archives. She is buried in the Lawrenceburg Cemetery. The street address my Garmin gave me is 599 South Main, Lawrenceburg. There are cemeteries on each side of the road. She is in the one to the west of US-127(business). Enter the more northern of the two entrances. There will be two street signs that have SEC 1. When the path splits, go right. At the second path to the right, there is a sign 2A. Go right and immediately stop. The grave site is on the right just to the left of a largish stone with "Marrs" engraved on it. Her headstone is low to the ground and next to a similar stone for her parents. My Garmin gives coordinates 38° 01.428"N 84° 53.517"E For the trivia buffs: What snippet is engraved on her headstone? "Let go and let God." The cemetery is located about five miles north of Exit 59 on the Bluegrass Parkway. Tommy H in Danville, Kentucky IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7636. . . . . . . . . . . . 1951 Lasker Award From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/16/2011 1:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Who nominated AA for this award? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7637. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Towns Hospital closing From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/16/2011 10:29:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Charlie Towns (1862-1947) wasn't a doctor -- he was a financial speculator and insurance salesman who picked up a line on curing addictions during a blank period in his life around the year 1900, sold his line to Teddy Roosevelt's personal physician (who was connected with Bellevue), went off to Shanghai ca 1908 (that's from memory -- I think it was to an international convention on opium), claimed huge successes in dealing with opium, and came back a kind of U.S. hero. His method was basically purging and exercise, and like earlier supersalesmen he claimed he could cure any addiction -- but his methods had largely fallen out of favor by the time Dr. Silkworth and Bill Wilson came along, which was why he let Silky do what he wanted and was so anxious to hire Bill as a lay therapist. His son Col. Ed Towns (Edward Barbour Towns b. Aug 9 1895 d. May 1979) ran the hospital until he retired in 1965. It was a family business, but there was no one in the family who wanted to carry it on. I can't say about hospital detoxes or insurance, but the new model was Hazelden (and its Caron derivative), and I believe our Clarkson correspondent is right that Towns Hospital was outmoded, whatever the details may have been, though the timing of the closing may have had to do largely with Col. Ed's age. (I think btw he spoke at Long Beach in 1960, did he not?) _________________________________________ > From: route20guy@yahoo.com > Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 04:26:34 -0700 > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Towns Hospital closing > > I just looked this up in the NY Times Historical database I have access to, and there is an article from June 6, 1965 titled "Drying out hospital for problem drinkers closes." The hospital had, according to the article, closed the week before. > > Apparently the closing was largely due to financial reasons, the hospital being unable to work with insurance companies like Blue Cross, new hospital department regulations, etc. I don't know much about this sort of thing, but it sounds like a family business unable to keep up with changing business conditions, including the emergence of more and more competition - lots of hospitals were beginning to open detox units in the later 1960s for example, something they hadn't had before. > > (Personal note: my father-in-law was a doctor who started one of the first detox units in the Albany, New York, area at the hospital he was then director of in the late '60s. The irony was that he died in that same unit 20 years later of alcoholism ... ) > > The hospital began in 1909 at 119 West 81st Street, and in 1914 moved to Central Park West. They had a special rate for AA's: $125 for a 5 day stay! > > Some interesting bio on Charles Towns, the founder, who died 2/21/1947. He apparently resided in China for some years at the turn of the last century and became interested in the problem of narcotics addiction, specifically opium. When he came back to the US he worked in Bellevue Hospital and then opened his own private hospital. His son ran the hospital after his death until it closed. > > Charlie Cowling > Clarkson, New York IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7638. . . . . . . . . . . . How tall were Bill W. and Dr. Bob? From: bernadette macleod . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/16/2011 3:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can someone tell me how tall Bill W. and Dr. Bob were? bernadette mking city group richmond hill, ontario, canada IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7639. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How Did a Sponsee get to Be Called a Pigeon? From: hdmozart . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/16/2011 2:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ARTICLE IN "MARKINGS" FROM 1988: I did hear back from an aa.org archivist - "I have attached an old issue of Markings, the Archives newsletter, that contains a bit of information and history about the term." She included pp 1 from the 1988 Markings, Vol VI, no. 1, which had the article "PIGEON" by Father G - There is a copy of the complete article here: http://www.aa-semi.org/committees/archives/pigeon.htm "It may very well be that Lois used the term, so did many other A.A. members but Dr. Bob is credited with its origin in A.A." Also, as pointed out by wilant73, several dictionaries have a second definition of pigeon: Merriam-Webster Pigeon: an object of special concern : accepted business or interest Larry IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7640. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why was the end of Fitz Mayo''s story removed? From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2011 6:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Members: It is my understanding that though Bill wrote a large percentage of the basic text, that it was "filtered" and debated by many of the pioneers until the "final version" was decided upon. The portion of one of Bill's letters below -- (2) too advanced) -- seems to, at the very least, be a watered down version of what our book states on page 29, if not contradictory: "Each individual, in the personal stories, describes in his own language and from his own point of view the way he established his relationship with God. These give a fair cross section of our membership and a clear-cut idea of what has actually happened in their lives." Though the expression "what it was like, what happened and what it is like now," may have as many definitions as our number of members, the editing of Fitz's story could easily be interpreted as the minimizing of God's role in his story or life, as recovered. In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst _________________________________________ 2) Too advanced "In one letter to an individual who was interested in sending his story to him, Bill writes, "As you are probably aware the stories we need will be of the straight AA variety; the kind which would be most effective with the beginner on our program. We are looking for straight personal narratives which describes the drinking history, how the newcomer arrived in Alcoholics Anonymous, how AA, affected him, and what A. A. has since accomplished for him. For this purpose, we are not, of course, interested in the more advanced or specialized talks, the lecture or spread-eagle oratory type of talk, we can't very well use for this particular purpose."" I have not seen anything specific to the editing of these last paragraphs and it is theoretically possible that the editing notes used in preparation for the second edition Big Book in AAWS archives may just shed a clue. That said there is general information on the editing process for the Second Edition stories - mostly done by Bill W himself - detailed in a report prepared by AAWS on Big Book history in advance of the Fourth Edition which drew on the Archive collection of Bill's letters on the Second Edition changes and his notes in a Big Book for that purpose. The report is quoted in this message http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/430 Reading through the material in that message, it seems to me that two of the points Bill made may be relevant to these last paragraphs of Fitz M's story. First here's a piece that gives an overview of Bill's editing vision: "In June 14, 1954, letter ... Bill wrote: "The story section of the Big Book is far more important than most of us think. It is our principle means of identifying with the reader outside of A. A.. it is the written equivalent of hearing speakers at an A. A. meeting; it is our show window of results. To increase the power and variety of this display to the utmost should be, therefore, no routine or hurried job. The best will be none too good. The difference between 'good' and 'excellent' can be the difference between prolonged misery and recovery, between life and death, for the reader outside A. A."" To me, two possible reasons for the edits on Fitz M's story are: 1) Sensitive material "There were some cautions enumerated by Bill in considering the revision of the Big Book: "The main purpose of the revision is to bring the story section up to date, to portray more adequately a cross section of those who have found help -- the audience for the book is people who are coming to Alcoholics Anonymous now. Those who are here have already heard our stories. Since the audience for the book is likely to be newcomers, anything from the point of view of content or style that might offend or alienate those who are not familiar with the program should be carefully eliminated." Another letter from Bill accompanied all the changes planned for the Second Edition of the A. A. book and enumerates these suggested changes with the caveat "Do any of the stories or titles contain material that might repel any considerable number of sensitive alcoholic readers? And if so, what changes are suggested?" In another letter... "AA experience shows that we have to identify with the people on the basis on where they think they are -- not where we think they ought to be."" It seems to me that phrases in each of these paragraphs may have been considered too religious for some 1955 newcomers: "God produces harmony in those who receive His Spirit and follow Its dictates" "a host of other things tell me of the glory of God" "a greater love for Our Father in heaven" It may also be worth remembering that at the time of the Big Book writing Fitz had insisted that the book name Jesus as God and back then, when AA's message as a whole was just being established those last paragraphs may have seemed very mild in comparison and a good compromise. By 1955, by which time, AA's doctrine-free Broad Highway was well-established, it's very likely that they seemed much more doctrinal than they had back in 1939. 2) Too advanced Of course this is just my speculation based on general information we have from the AAWS report. It is possible that notes in the Archives could shed specific light on the removal of those paragraphs and resolve your question with certainty. So why not contact AAWS? --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "mykeblanch" wrote: > Hi, I was curious if anyone knew why the the last 3 paragraphs of Fitz Mayo's story (Our Southern Friend) were removed after the 1st edition? They seem so inspiring, so I thought I would ask the question. > - - - - > For the paragraphs which were removed, see > http://silkworth.net/bbstories/226.html > < Today as I become more harmonized within, I become more in tune with all of God's wonderful creation. The singing of the birds, the sighing of the wind, the patter of raindrops, the roll of thunder, the laughter of happy children, add to the symphony with which I am in tune. The heaving ocean, the driving rain, autumn leaves, the stars of heaven, the perfume of flowers, music, a smile, and a host of other things tell me of the glory of God. > There are periods of darkness, but the stars are shining, no matter how black the night. There are disturbances, but I have learned that if I seek patience and open-mindedness, understanding will come. And with it, direction by the Spirit of God. The dawn comes and with it more understanding, the peace that passes understanding, and the joy of living that is not disturbed by the wildness of circumstances or people around me. Fears, resentments, pride, worldly desires, worry, and self-pity no longer possess me. Ever-increasing are the number of true friends, ever-growing is the capacity for love, ever-widening is the horizon of understanding. And above all else comes a greater thankfulness to, and a greater love for Our Father in heaven.>> IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7641. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early AA rules From: Shakey Mike . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/18/2011 5:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a letter dated May 18, 1942 to Mgt Burger,from the Philadelphia Mother Group Operating Committee for May,1942,("from the first we felt that there was inherent danger in having a head man to govern our organization") in reply to her request in a recent mimeograph sent to her the following plan and procedure. "All requests for financial assistance are referred to the operating committee, who, if the cause is worthy, advance credit in the clubhouse restaurant for meals and cash to the extent of a place to sleep in one of the local missions. We then place the man in some employment such as Hospital Orderly or the like. On his first payday he is expected to repay us for what we have spent. If on this pay day he is still sober, our small investment is returned and we have a man well advanced in the program. If he is a 'phony' or has not the desire to stop drinking, or is not an alcoholic, he is gone and we have lost very little and none of the individual members have lost. This plan may seem very cold and ungenerous on first reading, but bear in mind the following: 1.If the man wants to stop drinking he is willing to do anything to achieve that goal and the man that is too good for that plan does not want real help -- merely financial. 2. The man who wants to regain his place in society wants to do it himself under his own power, without too many obligations to others. 3. He is probably tremendously in debt already and we do not want to put him in any more than is really necessary. 4. He is taking a job that is not going to be too great a strain on him mentally or nervously but will still keep him occupied enough to keep his mind away from himself and make him tired enough to sleep at night and allow himself to fall into a set of decent habits and regular routine. 5. He will not have enough money in his pockets to get drunk on. 6. He is prevented from pan-handling members. This is not necessarily to protect the members, but to protect the man. We find that it is too easy to spoil a good prospect with kindness. We have used this method in Philadelphia for two years with the most satisfactory results. We have applied it regardless of former social standing or financial rating. We have even used it on some former members of other groups who have come to us. The fellows who have come up this way are themselves very proud of it and the Group is most proud of them and they are held in very high esteem. The financial report on these loans is most interesting. In the last year we loaned $588.98 and of that sum only $146.41 remains unpaid to date. Contrast this with your own "loans" to drunks. While the policy is not ironclad ( we have had two exceptions) we do not encourage ministers and priests to address our gatherings. We are afraid that it might lead new people to thinking we are interested in some particular type of worship. On the other hand, our members have addressed bible classes and other church bodies and will carry our message to any interested associations. Source material for a handbook should include a few experiments that went sour so that they will not be repeated in the new Fellowships that are forming. One such comes to mind. We held a theory that men having difficulty with the A.A. Program might fare better if we imposed some responsibility upon them. So the January 1941 Operating Committee was composed of entirely of such fellows. Charged with the duty of running our Group. One member of this Committee "slipped" two days after it assumed office. Before the end of the month every last one of them had gone off the deep end, finally the chairman. We see dangers also in having men too recently out of drink addressing our meetings. From the showmanship standpoint they are usually effective, but it frequently does something to their emotional organization which is not helpful. Getting too holy too fast has also been observed as a possible warning sign. The gutter ... To sainthood ... And back to the gutter is fast traveling but hardly the trip we planned for our fellow alcoholic." "Please tell Bill Wilson for our membership that the Philly boys and girls look forward to publication of the handbook. It will furnish us with some of the answers that heretofore we had to find by a costlier method of trial and error." "Regards to Bill and Lois and to all of you of the Foundation,from our gang in Philadelphia." Cordially, The Philadelphia A.A. Fellowship By its May Operating Committee ___________________________________________ Respectfully submitted, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Will be in Helena, Montana next week for the 15th NAAAW. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7642. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: How tall were Bill W. and Dr. Bob? From: Mark Landis . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/18/2011 3:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII With or without the pedestal? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7643. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why was the end of Fitz Mayo''s story removed? From: Ernie Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/17/2011 8:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does all this take into account the role of Tom Powers in editing the 2nd edition stories? ernie kurtz - - - - On Sep 10, 2011, at 6:56 PM, in http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7640 Chuck Parkhurst wrote: > It is my understanding that though Bill wrote a large percentage of the basic text, that it was "filtered" and debated by many of the pioneers until the "final version" was decided upon. The portion of one of Bill's letters below -- 2) too advanced -- seems to, at the very least, be a watered down version of what our book states on page 29, if not contradictory . . . . > 2) Too advanced . . . "In one letter to an individual who was interested in sending his story to him, Bill writes, "As you are probably aware the stories we need will be of the straight AA variety; the kind which would be most effective with the beginner on our program. We are looking for straight personal narratives which describes the drinking history, how the newcomer arrived in Alcoholics Anonymous, how AA, affected him, and what A. A. has since accomplished for him. For this purpose, we are not, of course, interested in the more advanced or specialized talks, the lecture or spread-eagle oratory type of talk, we can't very well use for this particular purpose."" . . . . etc., etc. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7644. . . . . . . . . . . . Article on AA Archives Workshop From: trysh travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/19/2011 10:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is a new post today on Points: The Blog of the Alcohol and Drugs History Society (http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/), which talks about the upcoming AA Archives Workshop. Trysh Travis Associate Professor, Center for Women's Studies and Gender Research University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611-7352 The Language of the Heart: the Recovery Movement from AA to Oprah ___________________________________________ "History at Work and Play: Thoughts on the AA Archives Workshop" Posted on September 19, 2011 by ttravis Points readers interested in the history of Alcoholics Anonymous will be interested to know that this weekend (22-25 Sept.) is the 15th Annual National AA Archives Workshopâ“ a get-together dedicated to collecting and preserving the history of that fellowship at the local, regional, and national levels. Points readers who are not interested in AA history should still take note of this event: the National Archives Workshops are part of a robust movement within AA to create âcitizen historiansâ (for lack of a better term) actively engaged in the process of doing historyâ“an example of what Rob MacDougall (late of Old is the New New) a few years back called âhistory at play.â MacDougallâs interests like predominately in the use of online history gaming as a form of historical thinking, but he is interested in larger questions as well. In a post called âPlayful Historical Thinking,âhe challenged academic historians to drop their preconceptions and consider âHow do we think about history? What are we doing in our heads, what cognitive moves are we making, when we think historically? Once you read people like [Sam] Wineburg (other good examples include Peter Seixas, Denis Shemilt, Keith Barton and Linda Levstik), you start to realize how sterile many of our debates over history standards and curricula and âwhat history is forâ are.â This isâ“ or should beâ“ a vital issue for anyone who teaches or writes history professionally, since how we think about what we are doing shapes the way we structure our classes and our writing, and thus how we invite students and readers to join us in the pursuit of history. The profoundly depressing insight that drives MacDougallâs hopeful fulminations comes from Roy Rosenzweig and David Thelenâs 1998 book, The Presence of the Past: Popular Uses of History in American Life. In a word, âwhile the majority of survey respondents cared deeply about the past, and engaged with it daily in a variety of informal ways, apathy or even hostility to formal history as taught in school was almost universal.â Oops. What would a class, or the curriculum for a major, look like if its goal was not to train students to be like professional historians, but to instill in them the will to be playful historical thinkers? This juxtapositioning of the âformalâ and the âinformalâ realms of practice are a useful thought experiment, I think, but they also suggest that in the informal arena all is pleasure, play, and counter-hegemony. Thatâs a mistake, and one of the things that is really interesting to observe is the ways in which certain forms, codes, and hierarchies come to structure the realms of vernacular or amateur history just as they do academic or professional history. Doing history in AA, for example, may be âplayful,â but it is also seriousâ“ even teleological. As the National Archives Workshopâs Statement of Purpose notes, archival work is a form of service to the fellowship, and aims to âhelp the still suffering alcoholic by preserving the integrity of both the AA message and the history of the Fellowship for current and future members.â Workshop participants will have the opportunity to learn about conservation, preservation techniques, using meta-data for digital preservation, etc. (full schedule here). These âneutralâ tools can, obviously, be deployed to any ends. But the notion of âpreserving integrityâ has powerful connotations; the preservationist impulse in AA that led to the annual Archives Workshops sprang up around the same time as the âBack to Basics movement,â which (though inflected in different ways in different parts of the world) is generally anti-therapeutic and pro-theistic. The âplayfulâ amateur can be as doctrinaire as the âformalâ professional, and the contest for meaning is as alive in AA as it is in any academic journal or conference. Next week in this space, Points will welcome historian Ernest Kurtz, who will discuss some of the varieties of AA history that have developed over the past decadesâ“ and anticipate those still to come. Until then, folks interested in AA history who canât make it to Montana this weekend can get their fill at several of the online portals that offer an entry into that world: the Archives of the General Service Office in New York City; the complete run of âMarkings: Your Archives Interchange,â the GSOâs newsletter for AA archivists; the museum at the former home of AA co-founder Dr. Bob Smith; and the historic site Stepping Stones, former home of AA co-founder Bill and Al-Anon co-founder Lois Wilson. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7645. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why was the end of Fitz Mayo''s story removed? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/19/2011 11:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 20:52 9/17/2011, Ernie Kurtz wrote: >Does all this take into account the role of Tom Powers in editing >the 2nd edition stories? > It would be interesting and informative to know the details of how our books were put together, specifically the Second Edition Big Book, the 12&12, and A.A. Way of Life/As Bill Sees It. It is said that Wilson wanted to revise the Big Book but the notion was vetoed. I would be particularly interested in what he would like to have changed and what he would have changed it to. Was the 12&12 a reaction to that? I have found A.A.W.L./A.B.S.I. particularly valuable to my recovery over the years. The vetting process there would be interesting. The stories in the First Edition were polished by professional writers. I wonder how much of what remained reflect what happened or were polished to make a point or points? Tommy H in Danville, Kentucky IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7646. . . . . . . . . . . . When Stars Don''t Fall From: regina_tierney . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/23/2011 4:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Just read a book - Newspaper Titan- The Infamous Life and Monumental Times of Cissy Patterson. Fascinating story about Felicia G - and the earliest women of AA in NY. DOes anyone know when The Mustard Seed in Murray Hill was opened? Felicia G hung out there and I was wondering if it is still the same place IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7647. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Article on AA Archives Workshop From: J.BARRY MURTAUGH . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/19/2011 7:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thanks Trish! Gleefully and Gratefully - Playing in the Fields of the Lord (oops HP). bear (J.Barry Murtaugh Court Maroon, Ltd. 773-851-2100) - - - - Message #7644 from trysh travis (trysh.travis at gmail.com) There is a new post today on Points: The Blog of the Alcohol and Drugs History Society (http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/), which talks about the upcoming AA Archives Workshop. Trysh Travis Associate Professor Center for Women's Studies and Gender Research University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611-7352 The Language of the Heart: the Recovery Movement from AA to Oprah ___________________________________________ "History at Work and Play: Thoughts on the AA Archives Workshop" Posted on September 19, 2011 by ttravis Points readers interested in the history of Alcoholics Anonymous will be interested to know that this weekend (22-25 Sept.) is the 15th Annual National AA Archives Workshop -- a get-together dedicated to collecting and preserving the history of that fellowship at the local, regional, and national levels. Points readers who are not interested in AA history should still take note of this event: the National Archives Workshops are part of a robust movement within AA to create "citizen historians" (for lack of a better term) actively engaged in the process of doing history -- an example of what Rob MacDougall (late of Old is the New New) a few years back called "history at play." MacDougall's interests like predominately in the use of online history gaming as a form of historical thinking, but he is interested in larger questions as well. In a post called "Playful Historical Thinking,"he challenged academic historians to drop their preconceptions and consider "How do we think about history? What are we doing in our heads, what cognitive moves are we making, when we think historically? Once you read people like [Sam] Wineburg (other good examples include Peter Seixas, Denis Shemilt, Keith Barton and Linda Levstik), you start to realize how sterile many of our debates over history standards and curricula and 'what history is for' are." This is -- or should be -- a vital issue for anyone who teaches or writes history professionally, since how we think about what we are doing shapes the way we structure our classes and our writing, and thus how we invite students and readers to join us in the pursuit of history. The profoundly depressing insight that drives MacDougall's hopeful fulminations comes from Roy Rosenzweig and David Thelen's 1998 book, The Presence of the Past: Popular Uses of History in American Life. In a word, "while the majority of survey respondents cared deeply about the past, and engaged with it daily in a variety of informal ways, apathy or even hostility to formal history as taught in school was almost universal." Oops. What would a class, or the curriculum for a major, look like if its goal was not to train students to be like professional historians, but to instill in them the will to be playful historical thinkers? This juxtapositioning of the "formal" and the "informal" realms of practice are a useful thought experiment, I think, but they also suggest that in the informal arena all is pleasure, play, and counter-hegemony. That's a mistake, and one of the things that is really interesting to observe is the ways in which certain forms, codes, and hierarchies come to structure the realms of vernacular or amateur history just as they do academic or professional history. Doing history in AA, for example, may be "playful," but it is also serious -- even teleological. As the National Archives Workshop's Statement of Purpose notes, archival work is a form of service to the fellowship, and aims to "help the still suffering alcoholic by preserving the integrity of both the AA message and the history of the Fellowship for current and future members." Workshop participants will have the opportunity to learn about conservation, preservation techniques, using meta-data for digital preservation, etc. (full schedule here). These "neutral" tools can, obviously, be deployed to any ends. But the notion of "preserving integrity" has powerful connotations; the preservationist impulse in AA that led to the annual Archives Workshops sprang up around the same time as the "Back to Basics movement," which (though inflected in different ways in different parts of the world) is generally anti-therapeutic and pro-theistic. The "playful" amateur can be as doctrinaire as the "formal" professional, and the contest for meaning is as alive in AA as it is in any academic journal or conference. Next week in this space, Points will welcome historian Ernest Kurtz, who will discuss some of the varieties of AA history that have developed over the past decades -- and anticipate those still to come. Until then, folks interested in AA history who can't make it to Montana this weekend can get their fill at several of the online portals that offer an entry into that world: the Archives of the General Service Office in New York City; the complete run of "Markings: Your Archives Interchange," the GSO's newsletter for AA archivists; the museum at the former home of AA co-founder Dr. Bob Smith; and the historic site Stepping Stones, former home of AA co-founder Bill and Al-Anon co-founder Lois Wilson. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7648. . . . . . . . . . . . Is Bill W''s correspondence with doctors about B3 online? From: ewmichels77 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/22/2011 1:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would like to find of an online copy of Bill W's communications to doctors on Vitamin B3 (Niacin). Do copies of these letters exist? Does anyone know where to find them? - - - - Message #6152 from: (Baileygc23 at aol.com) Even as Alcoholics Anonymous slowly grew, many of Bill's financial and personal problems endured, most notably depression. Abram Hoffer writes: "I met Bill in New York in 1960. Humphry Osmond and I introduced him to the concept of megavitamin therapy. Bill was very curious about it and began to take niacin, 3,000 mg daily. Within a few weeks fatigue and depression which had plagued him for years were gone. He gave it to 30 of his close friends in AA. Of the thirty, 10 were free of anxiety, tension and depression in one month. Another 10 were well in two months. Bill then wrote "The Vitamin B 3 Therapy." and thousands of copies of this extraordinary pamphlet were distributed. Bill became unpopular with the members of the board of AA International. The medical members, who had been appointed by Bill, "knew" vitamin B 3 could not be therapeutic as Bill had found it to be. I found it very useful in treating patients who were both alcoholic and schizophrenic. --From Vitamin B3: Niacin and Its Amide, by A. Hoffer, M.D., Ph.D.; Wilson B: The vitamin B3 therapy: The first communication to AA's physicians (1967); A second communication to AA's physicians (1968). http://orthomolecularvitamincentre.com/disorders.php IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7649. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: When Stars Don''t Fall From: Susan Banker . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/23/2011 8:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I think the Mustard Seed has always been on 37th Street in Murray Hill. It had been Ruthie's apartment, and she started the Lunch Bunch there. She moved out and Mustard Seed moved in. Don't remember the year it started, but Ruthie was still alive and sharing when I got sober in 1988. Susan - - - - On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 4:31 PM, regina_tierney wrote: Just read a book - Newspaper Titan- The Infamous Life and Monumental Times of Cissy Patterson. Fascinating story about Felicia G - and the earliest women of AA in NY. Does anyone know when The Mustard Seed in Murray Hill was opened? Felicia G hung out there and I was wondering if it is still the same place. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7650. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How tall were Bill W. and Dr. Bob? From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/19/2011 7:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII does this person need to know the heights in order to say she looks up to these gentleman? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7652. . . . . . . . . . . . Ernie Kurtz on AA History From: trysh travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/26/2011 8:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Today at *Points: The Blog of the Alcohol and Drugs History Society,* Ernie Kurtz has a post on the topic of "What is 'AA History'?" http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/ Trysh Travis ==================================== ERNIE KURTZ, WHAT IS "AA HISTORY"? Points: The Blog of the Alcohol and Drugs History Society Posted on September 26, 2011 by ttravis http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/ Editor's Note: Following up on last week's post about the Alcoholics Anonymous National Archives Workshop, Points this week welcomes the comments of Guest Blogger Ernie Kurtz, the author of Not-God: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous (1979) and the pre-eminent historian of AA -- a title that, as he notes below, he is eager to shed. ==================================== "What is AA history?" It is (at least) two things: (1) the story of the AA fellowship and its program from its founding in 1935 to the present, as researched, examined, and studied according to the canons of historical investigation; and (2) the equally ongoing research into and investigation of AA antiquities -- details apparently only marginally related to the continuing story but of interest to hobbyists and antiquarians. To its credit, the "AA History Lovers" listserv, founded by Glenn Chesnut of the Hindsfoot Foundation in 1993, generously serves both. Both kinds of AA history are valuable to understanding the fellowship -- perhaps more so than is the case with many other phenomena that have similarly enthusiastic followers. For one never knows when an apparently context-less antiquity -- a stray newspaper article, an amateur publication -- will shed sudden new light on a previously ignored aspect of AA's continuing story, something that may even have resonance for how some practice its program today. Let me illustrate with examples of each of the three phenomena mentioned: the strictly historical, the pretty solidly antiquarian, and items that straddle those categories. First, we have strict historical investigation: what actually happened when the struggling fellowship met in Akron in October of 1937 to decide whether to act on co-founder Bill Wilson's plans for hospitals, paid "missionaries," and a book? The answer has implications for how we understand AA's commitment to "forever non-professional" mutual aid. Available evidence suggests that the pages covering those key days in 1937 have been removed from the diary of Wilson's wife Lois. What can we piece together from what we know of Lois's diarying habits and other comments on that meeting, then and later? Can more information be found about either of these? In the second, antiquarian, category there is the precise location of the grave of Henrietta Seiberling, the Akron matron who introduced co-founders Wilson and Dr. Bob Smith. Thanks to recent geo-spacing technology, we now have its precise latitudinal and longitudinal coordinates. Fascinating information, to some, but not strictly "history." And yet . . . .Similarly, what about the arrangement of the furniture in the great room at Stepping Stones, Bill and Lois Wilson's Westchester home, and the tid-bit that Bill Wilson often lay on the floor near the heating register during conversations with guests. Was Bill chilled? Or is this another example of what Henrietta Seiberling acerbically described as Bill's habit of "never standing when he could sit, never sitting when he could lie down?" And if either of those, so what? Finally, those details that sit between the historical and the antiquarian. Now that we have a pretty good idea exactly what books were in the library of co-founder Dr. Bob Smith, can we locate any evidence as to which he read, which he read more than once, and which he particularly loved? "Petty" details like this offer valuable insights into the intellectual traditions that informed AA. Or what about the travel itineraries of the early AA members who were in sales. Can we find more of those, or get more detail about the few that we do have? How AA came to some locations, and how the fellowship spread within them and the surrounding area is still a blank for many places. Establishing with some certainty the migratory habits of early AAs might help to explain commonalities in the way AA is practiced across the nation and around the globe. For this historian, aged and disabled beyond the requirements of strictly historical research, thinking about that third category arouses the greatest interest: how to harvest the work of the cadre of diligent AA antiquarians in ways that will illuminate our growing knowledge of AA history? When does an apparently miscellaneous fact become the key missing piece in some yet unfinished picture of the early fellowship? Finally, a confession: I find it almost embarrassing that Not-God remains regarded as "the authoritative" history of Alcoholics Anonymous. That book is now 32 years old! A significant number of the members of at least one AA group here in Ann Arbor are younger than that. And so much has been learned in the interim -- some from smaller histories, more from the ceaseless digging by committed antiquarian researchers. I have large hopes that a person who recently completed a film on AA history will now turn to writing a totally new history of the fellowship and its program. We really need one. For history flows: it never stands still. Given the realities of human nature, there is always more to learn. "The whole truth," about anything, is never available as we trudge this earthly path. And that is not a sadness, but a joy -- an ever-present invitation and urging to study that which we love, on any level, from any perspective. The only requirement for how this works is, unsurprisingly, honesty. ==================================== 5 Responses to What is âAA Historyâ? ronroizen9 says: September 26, 2011 at 10:38 am Good stuff, Ernie! Please do more Points blogs. Iâve often marvelled â” even with a touch of envy â” at the great interest shown in esp. the second brand of inquiry on the aa-history-lovers listserv group. I say âenvyâ because the history of alcohol science in the U.S. and its relation to the modern alcoholism movement garners â” as Iâve noted before â” much less interest in the alcohol science community. Iâve sometimes mused about what it means about A.A. that so much seeming ephemera, isolated detail, and personal particulars attracts so much sustained interest on the history-lovers list. I suggest two hypotheses on this, the first I stumbled upon some time ago, the second occurred to me only this morning, after reading your piece. Hyp. (1): A.A. is an historical institution in the sense that it endeavors, day in and day out, to keep alive and intact some early body of inspiration and key organizational principles â” not unlike Christianity and other religions, or, for that matter, the U.S. Supreme Court! (I would add under this broad heading that a prevailing sense of personal gratitude and appreciation for the institution also lies just behind this historical preoccupation among in A.A.âs membership.) Hyp. (2) It struck me this morning that much of the aa-history-lovers fare is not entirely unlike family conversation about close relatives and ancestorys. Did Uncle Fred actually father a child in South America when he worked on the oil rigs? Did Aunt Ellen move to Ann Arbor before or after she married Uncle Pete? What made great grandma Bettyâs rhubarb pie so very unforgetable? There is something irreducibly familial, Iâm suggesting, in the aa-history-loversâ listâs affection for seemingly random particulars. I wonder if others in the Points community or on the aa-history-lovers list might have other hypotheses to offer. Thanks again, buddy. Ron - - - - Joe Gabriel says: September 26, 2011 at 12:20 pm This is a wonderful post. The distinction between the historical and the antiquarian â“ and the fuzzy, permeable, ever-changing, boundary between the two is a fascinating issue and one that we all need to think about more seriously. I think Ron is onto something important about antiquarianism being âirreducibly familialâ in nature â“ Iâve noticed a similar dynamic about the interest physicians frequently have in the history of their own discipline, though I havenât put it in these terms until reading this post. Itâs often a very antiquarian type of interest, and also one that seems similar to what Ron describes. Its like they all want to be related to William Osler or something, or at least talk about him as if they somehow were â“ who, not coincidentally, is sometimes referred to as the âfatherâ of modern medicine. Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts â“ and yes, please write more! I especially appreciated this last part: âFor history flows: it never stands still. Given the realities of human nature, there is always more to learn. 'The whole truth,' about anything, is never available as we trudge this earthly path. And that is not a sadness, but a joy â“ an ever-present invitation and urging to study that which we love, on any level, from any perspective. The only requirement for how this works is, unsurprisingly, honesty.â Thatâs going on my Facebook page. - - - - Charley Bill says: September 27, 2011 at 2:15 pm I believe the founder of AAHL would have to be Nancy Olsen, not Glenn. Nancy set up History Lovers with a slightly different name several years before Glenn took over as the âchiefâ unofficial historian of AA. I betcha someone has the exact dates that the group was started by Nancy and when Glenn took over as the âchief.â - - - - ttravis says: September 27, 2011 at 2:48 pm Charleyâ“ you are so right, and that is my error in editing Ernieâs piece. Nancy Olson founded the group that became AA History Lovers in 2000â“ the information is here in the lovely tribute page on the Hindsfoot site: http://hindsfoot.org/nomem1.html. I will correct the text of the post now. Thanks! tt - - - - Glenn Chesnut says: September 27, 2011 at 4:27 pm I donât want to claim credit for something I didnât do. Charley Bill is exactly right. It was originally Nancyâs idea. And Fiona Dodd from County Mayo in Ireland also did a lot of the hard work during those early days. The AAHistoryLovers was started as the âAAHistoryBuffsâ in March 2000 with Nancy Olson as the organizer and moderator. When the name was changed to âAAHistoryLoversâ in March 2002, Fiona Dodd carried out a lot of the laborious task of transferring the most important files to the new group. Fiona continues to this day as the backup moderator of the group. But it is probably better to think of the group as an assembly of extraordinarily competent and extremely dedicated researchers who discovered that the website could provide them a way to share their research findings with one another. I hate to give a list of the names, because Iâm afraid Iâm leaving key people out. But I do remember how everybody, including especially Nancy, turned to Ernie Kurtz for advice, encouragement, and moral support at all times. Bill White, Arthur S. (Arlington, Texas), Bill Lash, and Jim Blair were also deeply involved. A lot of the research projects were actually group efforts, such as the little biographies of the authors of the stories in the first edition of the Big Book, with one person writing up the results but many people contributing the information. Going through the names of the people posting messages during the first two years (2000-2002), a number of other names appear frequently: Charles Knapp, Doug B., Mitchell K., Rick Tompkins, Robert Stonebraker, Hank Groat (remcuster), tcumming, Alex H., M. Lee Carroll, Art Boudreault, Tom Enger, Sally Brown, and J. Lobdell. When I looked for my own name, I found that my own first contribution to the AAHistoryBuffs was not posted until Message #972 on March 10, 2002. When Nancy Olsonâs health began failing in the Spring of 2005, things got pretty disorganized and chaotic, but I eventually ended up assuming the responsibility of moderator. In keeping with the spirit in which the group has always been run, I have looked at all times to our best AA historians and archivists for their good advice, wisdom, and judgement. I feel pleased that we have not only grown from a few hundred members (mostly from the U.S. and Canada) to 2,394 historians and archivists today from all over the world, but that almost 100% of the people who originally made the group so strong at its beginning â” those who remain alive and in good health â” are still active and contributing to the group today. They are still the true strength and foundation of the group. Without them, we would not have anything useful. St. Isidore of Seville said in a famous phrase, âany man who claims to have read all the works of St. Augustine is a liar.â To an even greater degree it can surely be said, any one single person who claims to know everything about AA history is a fool. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7653. . . . . . . . . . . . D. F. Miller, pamphlet, Are You Becoming an Alcoholic? From: zulie55 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/28/2011 4:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We found an 2nd edition big book and we found a little pamphlet inside of it. "Are you becoming an Alcoholic" by D.F Miller, C.SS.R. First printing 1957. Does anyone have any information of this person and if they helped alcoholics? or did they help them get into AA? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7654. . . . . . . . . . . . Who nominated Bill W. for the Lasker Award? From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/27/2011 6:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 2d request: Does anyone know who nominated AA for the 1951 Lasker Award? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7656. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place and Marty Mann From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/27/2011 6:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From message 5285 The below is still later than the founding of the Cleveland meetings. Re: Oldest AA meeting place and Marty Mann Question for Sally Brown: Marty Mann's discharge date and the hotel meeting which she says was held in Greenwich, Connecticut, in late 1939. - - - - The Cleveland Meeting was on May 11, 1939 and was the 3rd AA group. [?? From the moderator: Arthur Sheehan in Message 5284 gives the date as May 10, 1939 ??]*** In June of 39 there was indeed a single meeting held at Blythewood. My info has Marty Mann attending the meetings in Montclair (May and early June) and in South Orange (June and July) after that. Sally, do you have Marty's discharge date? There is no info available that I know of a meeting in a hotel in Connecticut in 1939. Thanks John B ________________________________________ ***UPDATED COMMENT FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR: On May 10, 1939, Clarence Snyder and the Cleveland AA members went to the regular weekly Oxford Group meeting IN AKRON which was held at the home of T. Henry and Clarace Williams, and announced that they were going to start their own nonsectarian meeting in Cleveland, so the Catholics in their group would not get in trouble with their church. Most of the Cleveland AA people went along with this ultimatum. Then the next evening, on May 11, 1939, they actually held their first Cleveland meeting in Cleveland, and called it a meeting of "Alcoholics Anonymous." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7657. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: D. F. Miller, pamphlet, Are You Becoming an Alcoholic? From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/28/2011 5:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The letters C.Ss.R are a clue. That is an abbeviation for Congregatio Sanctissimi Redemptoris, and indicates that D.F. Miller was probably a member. So this would point you to the Redemptorist website, which has a link where you can contact them--hopefully, someone with their archives would have some information for you. Good Luck! Cindy Miller ________________________________________ On Sep 28, 2011, at 4:05 PM, zulie55 wrote: > We found an 2nd edition big book and we found a little pamphlet > inside of it. > "Are you becoming an Alcoholic" by D.F Miller, C.SS.R. First > printing 1957. > Does anyone have any information of this person and if they helped > alcoholics? or did they help them get into AA? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7658. . . . . . . . . . . . Who was Rip, described as a devoted servant of our cause? From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/28/2011 7:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My father has obtained a first edition, 7th printing of the book Alcoholics Anonymous, inscribed by Bill Wilson as follows: "My friend Rip: Devoted servant of our cause - Congratulations & best luck! Mar 1 /48 Bill Wilson" Can anyone offer information about the person "Rip" or what Bill might have meant when he referred to "Rip" as a "Devoted servant of our cause." I think "Rip" may have been related to Dr. Bob. Many thanks In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7659. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who nominated Bill W. for the Lasker Award? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/28/2011 6:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Perhaps you could contact the Lasker Foundation? Tommy H in Danville - - - - At 18:34 9/27/2011, john wikelius wrote: 2nd request: Does anyone know who nominated AA for the 1951 Lasker Award? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7660. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Ernie Kurtz on AA History From: J.BARRY MURTAUGH . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/27/2011 5:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Really good stuff. Thanks Ernie and Trish and Glenn, et al. Fiona and Nancy... We are graced by you and all who went before and now follow. Barry ==================================================== SOME EARLY LEADERS & FREQUENT CONTRIBUTORS TO THE AA HISTORY BUFFS (later the AA History Lovers): Ernie Kurtz, Fiona Dodd, Nancy Olson, Bill White, Arthur S. (Arlington, Texas), Bill Lash, Jim Blair, Charles Knapp, Doug B., Mitchell K., Rick Tompkins, Robert Stonebraker, Hank Groat (remcuster), tcumming, Alex H., M. Lee Carroll, Art Boudreault, Tom Enger, Sally Brown, J. Lobdell, and Glenn Chesnut. ==================================================== IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7661. . . . . . . . . . . . Felicia G (When Stars Fall) and other early women in AA From: Regina Tierney . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/28/2011 5:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone where I could find information about the first women in the program and in particular Felicia G author of When Stars Fall in original Big Book? Thanks! Regina T rtierney@earthlink.net 203-874-4937 646-675-1491 www.rtierneydigital.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7662. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Felicia G (When Stars Fall) and other early women in AA From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/29/2011 2:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Regina, go to our Message Board at: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages and use the little Search Box to search for: Felicia That will give you all the information we have on the AAHistoryLovers. Then go to: http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm and also to: http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html and look at the sections on Felicia there. You can also look on both of those websites and find the names of numerous other important women in early AA history. For more on Countess Felicia Gizycka and her AA friends (who were all important early female figures in AA history), read Sally Brown and David R. Brown, A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous, see http://www.amazon.com/Biography-Mrs-Marty-Mann-Alcoholics/dp/1568386265 Searching Google for Felicia Gizycka's name will get you some interesting things like the Life Magazine photo of her at http://www.life.com/image/50516523 and her New York Times obituary at http://www.nytimes.com/1999/04/04/us/felicia-g-magruder-ex-countess-dies-at- 93.h\ tml [27] ____________________________________ Yours in the fellowship, Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7663. . . . . . . . . . . . List of women in early AA history From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/29/2011 2:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I think we need a comprehensive list -- all of them in one place -- of all the women's names from early AA history. Or do we already have such a list? To be useful, the list needs to give at least enough information about each woman to be able to figure out basically who she was, and how one could find out more about her life and contributions. If the woman is talked about in other places in the AAHistoryLovers, the list could give the message numbers. That would help people who wanted to learn more about any particular figure. Glenn C., Moderator AAHistoryLovers IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7664. . . . . . . . . . . . Letter to Bill W. from his Higher Power From: trysh travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/28/2011 8:27:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Points blog (http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/) today features a piece cross-posted from the online project "Frequencies: a Collaborative Genealogy of Spirituality" (http://freq.uenci.es/), that should be of interest to AA History Lovers-- a letter to Bill W. from his Higher Power, ca. 1939. Trysh Travis ___________________________________________ Alcoholics Anonymous (1939), i.e. The Big Book Posted on September 28, 2011 by ttravis An essay on the AA "Big Book" written by Nicholas Montemarano and accompanied by images from David Michalek's Fourteen Stations (to see these photos go to http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/ ) ___________________________________________ BILL W. TO HIS HIGHER POWER: "I'll do anything! Anything at all! If there be a God, let Him show Himself!" --"Pass It On": The Story of Bill Wilson and How the A.A. Message Reached the World BILL'S HIGHER POWER WRITING BACK TO HIM: Actually, Bill, there is one thing you can do. It'll be good for both of us -- a win-win proposition. Okay, maybe a bit better for me, but what's good for me is good for everyone. Bill, I need you to write a book, a big book, an important one, a kind of Bible for the hopeless. Don't worry; I'll tell you what to write. As for the alcohol, just leave that up to me. You see, something more than human power is needed. Write that down and make sure to put it in the book. Intelligence isn't enough. Self-knowledge isn't enough. Will power isn't enough. The misery of hitting rock bottom isn't enough. The love of friends and family -- important, but not nearly enough. Nothing human, nothing of this world, will ever be enough. Alcoholism is a terminal disease, and the only thing that can cure a terminal disease is a miracle. I am that miracle. I am the mighty purpose of the universe. Allow me, a Higher Power, to do for you what you can't do for yourself. An alcoholic in his cups is an unlovely creature. But I love even the unlovely. I've watched you all these years, Bill. I was with you when you had your first Bronx cocktails. I've seen you shaking violently how many mornings, a tumbler of gin and six beers before breakfast. I've seen you brawl with taxi drivers. I've seen you steal from your wife's purse. I know you've considered jumping out the window. Listen to me: There's no need to drag your mattress to a lower floor. Haven't you already fallen enough? It's time for me to catch you. If you allow me to help you, and if you in return help me, then alcohol will no longer be your master. Here's the difficult truth: Everyone has an earthly master. Everyone, to varying degrees, is addicted to something. Drugs, alcohol, sex, love, gambling, food, success, failure, drama. Even I'm an addict: I need the devotion of human beings -- as many as possible. Even were I loved and worshiped by all, I'd still need to make more humans. And they would still need to suffer, I'm afraid, so that they'd have nowhere else to turn but to me. I've brought you to your knees, Bill, for one reason: so that you would return to me. And with your help -- the book I'm asking you to write -- many others will return to me as well. The Big Book should be small, a simple cover, red and yellow. Authorship, at least on the cover, should be anonymous. Of course, everyone will know it was you. All twelve steps will be important, but steps two and three -- a belief in me and a decision to turn one's life over to me -- will be most important. Without these two, the other ten mean nothing. Once you believe in me and ask for my help, I will remove all your shortcomings. And then you will spread the good news that there is a Higher Power. The bad news, Bill, is that you will receive the deity treatment. People will travel many miles and wait hours just to be in your presence. You'll feel under a microscope. You'll feel, rightly so, that you can't mess up. You will lose your anonymity -- you won't even be able to attend a meeting. You will become depressed. Everywhere you go people will want your attention. They will want to tell you all their problems. They will want you to see their suffering as special. That's when you'll have an idea -- just the slightest -- of what it's like to be me. Bill, you'll never quit cigarettes, not even when you can't breathe on your own. You'll cheat on your wife; you won't give up your mistress; you'll even write her into your will, leaving her ten percent of the proceeds from our book. Years from now you'll go spooking: you'll hold s�ances and play with Ouija boards; you'll listen for voices from beyond the grave when mine is the only voice you'll ever need to hear. You will forsake me on your deathbed, Bill, crying like a baby time and again not for me but for whiskey, but I will forgive you. -- H.P. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7665. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How tall were Bill W. and Dr. Bob? From: bernadette macleod . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/27/2011 2:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I know that Dr. Bob was raised in St Johnsbury, Vt and Bill W. was born and raised in East Dorset, Vt., both Vermonters who were said to be tall gentlemen. Does anyone know how tall they were on this 'archival' website? bernadette m. king city group richmond hill, ontario, canada - - - - Bernadette, We've posted your question, but nobody in the group seems to know the answer. You could look at all the photos on the internet where you can see Bill W. or Dr. Bob standing beside someone else, and get a rough idea of their comparative height. E.g. the second photo down at http://hindsfoot.org/mnfound1.html and you could do things like measure Dr. Bob's comparative leg length in the third photo down at http://hindsfoot.org/mnfound2.html and look at comparative heights in the photos in places like this http://www.texasdistrict5.com/history-in-photos.htm As you say, both Bill W. and Dr. Bob seem to have been taller than average. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7666. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who was Rip, described as a devoted servant of our cause? From: Corey Franks . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/29/2011 6:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Corey Franks, Mel Barger, and Glenn Chesnut AUSTIN RIPLEY, one of the great Catholic figures from early AA, founder of Guest House, one of the founders of Hazelden, inspirer of Father Joseph Martin. - - - - From: Corey Franks (erb2b at yahoo.com) Austin Ripley perhaps? Ive heard him described as Rip by many an oldtimer in Area 74 of Northern Wisconsin and the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. He was from Colfax, Wisconsin. Maybe him. ============================================ From: Mel B. I speculate that "Rip" might be Austin Ripley, the founder of Guest House, a treatment center for priests located in Lake Orion, Mich. Rip was a well-known radio crime-show writer in the 1930s until alcoholism pretty much wrecked his career. Once safely in AA, he decided that Catholic priests needed a special facility, so he started Guest House, which is still operating. Bill Wilson approved of the idea and even came out to speak there. Another enthusiastic backer was Father Edward Flanagan, the founder of Boystown, though he died [1948] before he could help Rip [get the treatment center running]. Rip died on April 11, 1974. Mel Barger ============================================ From Glenn Chesnut (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) Guest House first opened in Chippewa Falls, Wisconsin in 1951, and eventually moved into the former home of newspaper magnate William Edmund Scripps at Lake Orion, Michigan, in 1956. - - - - http://www.recovery-world.com/FATHERJOSEPHMARTIN.html While drinking ... Austin Ripley came across a copy of the Saturday Evening Post and discovered an article featuring Alcoholics Anonymous. The article described how this new five-year-old organization was having success helping alcoholics get and stay sober. It also talked about their “Big Book” which had only been in print for 1 year. As a result of this article, Austin Ripley began his journey of recovery through Alcoholics Anonymous. During a year's period of time, Austin Ripley spent as much time as he could with the founders of A. A. -- Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob Smith. He gained valuable knowledge and information about them and the program they founded. - - - - Father Joseph Martin [of the CHALK TALK movie] began his road to recovery in 1958 at The Guest House, which was founded and operated by Austin Ripley. Father Martin met Austin Ripley on the first day of his stay at The Guest House. He also was introduced to a Dr. Walter Green, himself a recovering alcoholic. Dr. Green was the first to talk about the intellect and the emotion and how drugs and alcohol cause the emotions to over-rule the intellect. Father deeply admired Austin Ripley and was so impressed with Dr. Green's lectures, that he saved his notes and 14 years later would use them to give his famous “Chalk Talks”. These lectures have been heard by hundreds of thousands of people around the world. Father has always given credit to both men for teaching him everything he knows about Alcoholism. There have been many advances in the field of alcoholism and drug addictions. However, there is one thing that has remained the same and that is the original message of Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob Smith given to Father Martin from Austin Ripley. - - - - http://guesthouse.org/testimonials.html Father Martin, a Sulpician priest and a popular teacher in Baltimore, had been in serious trouble with his superiors and himself when he arrived at Guest House in 1958 .... A seven-month stay at Guest House would be the beginning of sobriety and a new chapter in his life. He would not only be restored to his teaching position and parish duties; he would also become a teacher about alcoholism and one of the most influential persons in the recovery field. He would also become Austin Ripley’s close friend for the rest of Rip’s life. Within five minutes of meeting Rip, he said, “I want to be just like that man.” And within the next few minutes, Rip explained to him what he needed to know about his alcoholic condition and what was needed for recovery. He also offered this advice: “Leave your brains right outside the door. You do not need brains to get well, you need desire.” And Father Martin had that desire. “Whatever it was inside this man’s soul that he had, I wanted,” he recalls. “And I knew when our brief interview was over that he knew and understood me.” He never drank again. - - - - Damian McElrath, Patrick Butler: a biography, p. 65: The roots of Hazelden lay not with Pat Butler but rather with two disciples of Pat Cronin** -- Austin Ripley, a prominent newspaper writer and the famous author of Minute Mysteries and Photo Crimes, and Lynn Carroll, a lawyer and recovering alcoholic who would become Pat Butler's sponsor. Ripley and Carroll, along with Robert McGarvey, owner of McGarvey's Coffee, were drive by a vision of a secluded place in the country where alcoholics could stay while the fog lifted and where they could absorb a little education about the illness from which they were suffering and about a way of recovering from it. About fifty miles north of the Twin Cities they found an isolated spot that was ideal for their purposes -- a gentleman's farm, in a wooded lake area, far removed from urban distractions. They converted the manor into a treatment center affectionately known as the Old Lodge. The grounds then consisted of 217 acres of rolling land, some cultivated, some woodland, with about a mile of lakeshore on South Center Lake. - - - - **PAT CRONIN Message #5853 from Jean F. (jeanfid at gmail.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5853 First AA group in Minnesota Patrick Cronin's dry date was November 11, 1940; he was visited by Chan Forman (a former Minnesotan) and Bill Long from Chicago AA. The Armistice Day blizzard kept them here in Minneapolis long enough to help Cronin stay sober and hear the message. In April of 1941 Pat got two rooms (which quickly spread to five rooms) and a telephone at 200 East Franklin so as to organize a group. Bill Wilson made his first visit here to Minneapolis on October 26, 1941. Eventually the club was moved to the Washburn House at 2218 1st Ave So, now lovingly known as the Cronin house. ============================================ Original question from Chuck Parkhurst (ineedpage63 at cox.net) My father has obtained a first edition, 7th printing of the book Alcoholics Anonymous, inscribed by Bill Wilson as follows: "My friend Rip: Devoted servant of our cause - Congratulations & best luck! Mar 1 /48 Bill Wilson" Can anyone offer information about the person "Rip" or what Bill might have meant when he referred to "Rip" as a "Devoted servant of our cause." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7667. . . . . . . . . . . . Austin Ripley and the history of Hazelden treatment center From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/1/2011 4:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "The idea for Hazelden was born in 1947 when Austin Ripley, a recovering alcoholic, set out to create a treatment center in Minnesota specifically for alcoholic priests." "After Lynn Carroll and other key supporters got involved, the priest-only concept was rejected for a broader patient base. Hazelden was incorporated on January 10, 1949, as 'a sanatorium for curable alcoholics of the professional class.'" Hazelden began as just a big farmhouse on a large farm outside the tiny town of Center City, Minnesota (population 628). "Lynn Carroll .... LED A SIMPLE RECOVERY PROGRAM BASED ON ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS PRINCIPLES." There were only a small handful of alcoholics living in the farmhouse at one time -- 156 in all were treated in the first year and a half. IN THE 1960's, HAZELDEN TURNED INTO A TREATMENT CENTER RUN BY PSYCHOLOGISTS AND OTHER PROFESSIONALS and lost its tight identification with the AA program and AA principles. Hazelden quit putting its primary reliance on alcoholics who had themselves recovered in the AA program to teach the incoming patients. What some AA people call "the treatment center mentality" came to dominate Hazelden practice and method more and more. "The decade of the 1960s was" the period when what has been called the MINNESOTA MODEL of alcoholism treatment was developed. "Under the direction of Daniel Anderson, Dia Linn served as the laboratory for the Minnesota Model experiment. By the mid-1960s, psychologists, full-time chaplains, family services, and a comprehensive medical unit became part of the treatment approach. Treatment beds increased from 26 to 157 in the mid-1960s .... Addiction training of counselors, clergy, and other professionals also began in the 1960s." http://www.hazelden.org/web/public/hazelden_history.page - - - - A WARNING NOTE FROM GLENN C. In 1954, Hazelden began printing Richmond Walker's Twenty-Four Hours a Day. But Hazelden had not been taken over by the psychologists at that time. And Richmond Walker was an AA member who wrote that book and first began publishing it himself in Daytona Beach, Florida, in 1948. He was not a psychiatrist or psychologist, he had nothing to do with Hazelden or anybody who worked there, and in fact Hazelden was not even incorporated until 1949, the year after Rich wrote the 24 Hour book. Rich had been a wealthy businessman in Boston until he drank it all away, and was the son of one of America's most famous atheists, a man who had been one of the co-signatories of the infamous "Humanist Manifesto" and had also written a book defending atheism. The most important message of Rich's Twenty-Four Hour book was that, in spite of his father's teaching, he had finally found God in AA in 1942, and in the process had found a permanent sobriety (he died peacefully in his sleep in 1965 with 22 years of sobriety). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7668. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Felicia G (When Stars Fall) From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/29/2011 4:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sally Brown had access to Felicia's diary (from 1952 I think) and of course Felicia had several articles in the Grapevine as the sources Glenn mentioned will tell you. She was I believe the original "poor little rich girl" -- I think it was President William Howard Taft who had to threaten Poland ca 1913 to get her back from her father who had kidnapped her. When I met her (she was an exact contemporary of my mother when they were growing up in DC -- when Felicia was in DC -- and used to come to meetings at our house in Ho-Ho-Kus, New Jersey, back around 1948-51 with Marty and [rarely] Priscilla), I remember my father telling me she was "Cissy Patterson's girl," and while my mother's other girlhood (women) friends were identified to me when I was introduced to them as Miss Alice or Miss Muriel (as with, by extension, her AA friends who were not immediately local), she was sometimes "the Countess Felicia" and sometimes Miss -- my father told me she was the Countess Felicia Magruder. I recall that she liked blue but dressed in a lighter blue than Marty -- also saw her occasionally at Chase's Washington Square Book Shop. I think it was because of the way Drew Pearson treated Felicia that my parents would never listen to him on the radio -- which went back before my mother got sober in 1947 and I believe before Felicia got sober in 1944[?] Doubtless some of this repeats information already on the history lovers -- but possibly the personal note will be of interest. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7669. . . . . . . . . . . . Lasker Award, Marty Mann and our co-founders From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/29/2011 11:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Lasker Foundation is available at http://www.laskerfoundation.org The site shows Alcoholics Anonymous received the award "in recognition of its unique and highly successful approach to that age-old public health and social problem." "The Albert and Mary Lasker Foundation and its programs are dedicated to the support of biomedical research toward conquering disease, improving human health and extending life." "The Foundation mission is to foster the prevention and treatment of disease and disabilities by showing excellence in basic and clinical science, by educating the public and by advocating for support of medical research." Mary Woodward Lasker and Albert D Lasker funded and started the foundation. He made his money in advertising. When the AA co-founders Dr Robert Smith, M.D. and William Wilson were on the advisory board of The National Committee for Education on alcoholism (NCEA)chaired by Marty Mann, their full names were put on the literature. But then the members of A.A. made them take their names off (see PIO pg 320). I recently discovered 5 pamphlets by NCEA. In addition to Bill and Bob, the advisory board also included > 1. Dwight Anderson > 2. Russell S. Boles, M.D. > 3. Mrs. LaFell Dickinson > 4. Rev. Harry Emerson Fosdick > 5. Howard W Haggard, M.D > 6. Arthur Garfield Hays > 7. Arthur Hopkins > 8. Marcus Heiman > 9. E. M. Jelinek > 10. Lawrence Kolb, M.D. > 11. Austin H MacCormick > 12. Rev. Francis W. McPeek > 13.Hon. William M. Maltbie > 14 Harriet Mowrer > 15. Fulton Oursler > 16. Dorothy Parker > 17. Mary Pickford > 18. Channing Pollock > 19. Rev. Otis R Rice > 20. Harry M. Tiebout, M.D. > 21. Edwin G Zabriskie, M.D. The Women's Organizing Committee of NCEA included the following: > 1. Mrs. Grace Allen Bangs, Chairman > 2. Mrs. Julius Ochs Adler > 3. Mrs. Ann Barnard > 4. Mrs. Sydney Borf > 5. Ruth Collins > 6. Mrs. Kathleen Devine > 7. Mrs Ethyl Hendriksen > 8. Judge Anna Kross > 9. Mrs. Albert D. Lasker > 10. Pauline Mandingo > 11. Mrs. Leopold K. Simon > 12. Mrs. Sara Sparks > 13. Jane Tiffany Wagner Obviously Mrs Lasker knew Marty Mann and possibly may have met with one or both co-founders of A.A. Marty was available to address groups as were the members of the Women's Organizing Committee on the subject of Alcoholism, Public Health Problem #4. The Committee put out 14 lay supplements. Also available were abridged lectures of the first (1943) Summer Course on Alcoholic Studies at Yale University. Fifty cents for the 96 page publication. Technical books listed were > 1. Quarterly Journal of Studies of Alcoholism > 2. Alcohol Addiction and Chronic Alcoholism, edited by Dr. Jellnek > 3. A Survey of Alcohol Education in Elementary and High School > 4. Sociology and the Problems of Alcohol; Foundations for a Sociological Study of Drinking Behavior (memoirs of the Section on Alcoholic Studies Yale University; (no 1.) by Selden D. Bacon I can't say that this is or is not the reason that Alcoholics Anonymous received the Lasker award, but it is proof of a connection between Marty Mann, Mrs. Albert D Lasker and Dr. Bob and Bill W. The Advisory Board of NCEA included many early non-alcoholic friends of A.A. such as Fosdick, Jelenek, Kolb, Oursler and Tiebout. They may also have pushed for our receiving the Lasker. Does anyone know if the reprints are still available? Yours In Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila, PA USA 3rd EURYPAA in Copenhagen (2012) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7670. . . . . . . . . . . . The name Alcoholics Anonymous From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2011 12:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Glenn C. and Shakey Mike. MIKE SAYS: Cleve was the 1 st AA Group. AA literature says so quite clearly. Recovery from the disease started with membership in the OG alcoholic squad. The first AA group was Cleve on the 11th at Al G's home. Clarence should be given that credit no matter how unpopular the view might be. This may be splitting hairs but it is correct AA history and to not post the correct history is not what AAHL is about. ========================================= GLENN RESPONDS: (Bill Wilson's Talk to the Manhattan Group, NYC, 1955 Message #848 from ) Late Spring 1937 -- the leaders of the Oxford Group at Calvary Mission began attacking Bill and Lois's work with alcoholics, and in August, the two of them stopped attending Oxford Group meetings. The New York AA's were now separate from the Oxford Group. As Bill described it: <> http://silkworth.net/timelines/timelines_public/timelines_public.html Message #4269 from "Arthur S" May 20, 1938 -- the writing of the Big Book began. June 15 1938 --Lois' recollection of the first time the term Alcoholics Anonymous was used (in "Lois Remembers" p. 197). June 1938 -- Bill W wrote Dr. Bob: "By the way, you might all be thinking up a good title. Nearly everyone agrees that we should sign the volume Alcoholics Anonymous. Titles such as Haven, One Hundred Men, Comes the Dawn, etc. have been suggested." (This meant that the name "Alcoholics Anonymous" at that point was intended to be, not the title, NOT the official name of their group, but how the authorship would be given on the title page.) Jul 15, 1938 -- "Pass It On" (p. 202) quotes from a July 15, 1938 letter from Bill W to "Messrs Richardson, Chipman and Scott of the Rockefeller Foundation" inviting them to attend a meeting at Bill's home on Clinton Street and said that in their case they would "gladly waive the [requirement of] heavy drinking that has qualified us for Alcoholics Anonymous," and consider them as "honorary members." Jul 18, 1938 -- "Pass It On" (p. 202) Dr. Esther L. Richards (of Johns Hopkins) stated in a letter on that date that Bill W was using the name Alcoholics Anonymous at that time both as the working title of the book and as the name of the Fellowship. Also in Harry Brick's story in the Big Book, "A Different Slant," Harry says, "The doctor at this hospital told me vaguely of the work of men who called themselves Alcoholics Anonymous and asked if I wanted one of them to call upon me." Since Harry probably got sober in June 1938, this also seems to indicate that the members of the AA group he contacted were calling themselves an "Alcoholics Anonymous" group, even if only at a casual and unofficial level. Two early sources give a slightly later date for the title of the book -- October or November 1938: Pass It On p. 202 -- most of the early AA people thought that it was Joe Worden, a writer for the New Yorker magazine, who first came up with the idea of using "Alcoholics Anonymous" for the actual title of the book, and Bill Wilson later on believed that the name "Alcoholics Anonymous" first became coming up in their discussions in October 1938. Joe was never able to remain continuously sober for very long, and ended up as a wet brain. AAHL Message #1705 -- And Jim Burwell wrote in a memoir later on that Hank Parkhurst and Bill Wilson finally decided on the name "Alcoholics Anonymous" in the latter part of November 1938. But in somewhat puzzling fashion, in the Foreword to the Second Edition of the Big Book (p. xvii), after describing how the first edition was published in April 1939, it then goes on to say: "the fledgling society, which had been nameless, now began to be called Alcoholics Anonymous, from the title of its own book." May 10, 1939 -- about a month after the Big Book was published, the Cleveland AA group announced that it was splitting from the Oxford Group, and on May 11 held a meeting called a meeting of "Alcoholics Anonymous." Late October 1939 -- Dr. Bob and the rest of the Akron group quit meeting with the Oxford Group, and began meeting separately, first at Dr. Bob's house and then, beginning in January, at King School in Akron. MY SUGGESTION OF A ROUGH TIME TABLE: ##June-July 1938: The phrase "Alcoholics Anonymous" was going to be used where the author's name would normally go on the front page of the Big Book, and many people had begun casually and unofficially referring to the group itself as "Alcoholics Anonymous." ##October-November 1938: the decision to use the phrase Alcoholics Anonymous as the title of the book. ##May 1939: the Cleveland AA group began calling itself an "Alcoholics Anonymous" group to declare its break from the Oxford Group. The Roman Catholic Church in Cleveland began allowing Catholics to belong to AA. ##October 1939: the Akron group quit its once-a-week meeting with non-alcoholics in the Oxford Group, and after this point there were no other groups practicing the program described in the book Alcoholics Anonymous which were attending Oxford Group meetings. ##January 1940: now that AA had remaining official ties whatsoever with the Oxford Group -- which was one of Sister Ignatia's preconditions -- she was able to negotiate an agreement between Dr. Bob and her ecclesiastical superior, allowing AA to maintain an alcoholic ward at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron. As far as Sister Ignatia seems to have been concerned, the birth of Alcoholics Anonymous as a fully separate organization (with no links to the Oxford Group), does not seem to have occurred until October 1939, when the Akron group finally quit its once-a-week meeting with non-alcoholic Oxford Groupers. ========================================= http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7609 citing this article: http://hindsfoot.org/aacaths.doc Article by Glenn C. on the first Catholics in AA, already posted, and already telling the story (in detail) of the break between Cleveland and Akron. By April 1939, there were fourteen alcoholics in Cleveland, Ohio, a major American manufacturing city on Lake Erie, just south of the Canadian border; they were led by a man named Clarence Snyder, who had gotten sober on February 11, 1938. The Cleveland people were traveling every week to the Wednesday night Oxford Group meeting at T. Henry and Clarace Williams’s home in Akron, forty miles to the south. The problem was that a majority of the Cleveland contingent were Roman Catholics, and they told Clarence that their parish priest had told them they would be excommunicated if they continued attending Oxford Group meetings. One of the issues, according to later memories, arose because Oxford Group members were taught to confess their worst and most secret sins to one another. A good Catholic would only find that advisable or appropriate when done with a trained and competent priest, who knew how to distinguish between serious sins and imaginary issues, and who had the power of the keys and would be able to forgive the person’s sins and restore that person to a state of grace. Clarence repeatedly tried to get Dr. Bob to stop holding the main weekly meeting for alcoholics at T. Henry and Clarace Williams’s home in Akron, where an additional issue for the alcoholics was that they were being bunched in with the non-alcoholic Oxford Group members, but Dr. Bob’s loyalty to T. Henry, Clarace, Henrietta Seiberling and the other non-alcoholic Oxford Groupers remained unbreakable. Finally, in April 1939, Clarence was working on a Cleveland alcoholic named Albert (Abby or Al) Golrick (Abby’s story made it into the second and third editions of the Big Book under the title “He Thought He Could Drink like a Gentleman”). When Clarence began discussing the Catholic problem with Abby’s wife Grace, he told her that he believed they needed to stop attending the Akron meeting and start their own meeting right there in Cleveland, but that he had been unable to find any place they could meet. Grace told him that she and Abby would be glad to welcome them into their home at 2345 Stillman Road in Cleveland Heights. (AA historian Nancy Olson believed that Abby himself was Catholic, but I have been unable to produce independent confirmation of this. ) Armed with this new possibility, Clarence nevertheless made one final attempt to convince Dr. Bob to break the Oxford Group connection: I says, “Doc you know these fellows can’t come.” I says, “They can’t belong to the Oxford Group.” I says, “We don’t need all this folderol of the Oxford Group. We can eliminate a lot of this stuff. We have a book now with these Twelve Steps, and we have the Four Absolutes, and anyone can live with that.” He says, “Well you can’t do that,” he says, “you can’t break this thing up.” I says, “We’re not breaking anything up. All I’m interested in is something with more universality so that anybody can belong whether they have a religion or believe in anything or not. They can come.” He says, “Well you can’t do that.” I says “We’re gonna do something.” And he says, “Like what?” And I says, “Well we’ll see like what!” At the very end of his life, at the time he married his third wife Grace (this was in 1971, the year he turned sixty-nine), Clarence had had a long and turbulent life, filled with many disappointments and failures. He turned into a Protestant fundamentalist and began teaching an Assemblies of God Pentecostal-style recovery program in which he demanded that AA newcomers pray to Jesus, and fall down on their knees and turn their lives over to Jesus as their personal savior. Some AA historians focus primarily on that final phase of his life when they think about Clarence’s style of AA teaching. But back here in 1939 he was a very different person. Only thirty-six years old, and still filled with hope and overflowing confidence in God’s redeeming power, he instead emphasized a kind of AA based on universalism, where “anybody can belong whether they have a religion or believe in anything or not.” So on Wednesday, May 10, 1939, the recovering alcoholics from Cleveland went for one last time to the Oxford Group meeting at T. Henry and Clarace Williams’s house in Akron. At the close of the meeting, Clarence announced that this was “the last time the Cleveland contingent would be down to the Oxford Group as a whole.” He told Dr. Bob that “We’re gonna start our own group in Cleveland …. This is not gonna be an Oxford Group. It’s gonna be known as Alcoholics Anonymous. We’re taking the name from the book; and only alcoholics and their families are welcome. Nobody else …. We’re gonna meet at 2345 Stillman Road, Cleveland Heights at Al and Grace G.’s home.” Doc stood up and said, “You can’t do this.” Clarence replied, “There’s nothing to talk about.” The meeting broke up in a near riot as the Cleveland protestors stood up and walked out. Three or four of the Cleveland alcoholics refused to join this rebellion, but nine of them (the majority) remained united, and held their first Cleveland meeting the next evening (May 11, 1939). Everyone from Akron also came up and barged into the Golrick’s home. As Clarence described it: “The whole group descended upon us and tried to break up our meeting. One guy was gonna whip me. I want you to know that this was all done in pure Christian love. A.A. started in riots. It rose in riots.” In a letter to Hank P. on June 4, 1939, Clarence told him that in the new Cleveland group there was “not too much stress on spiritual business at meetings.” It was conducted, in other words, in a way very different from the Oxford Group’s strongly religious style. According to Mitchell K., “Clarence always felt that overt spirituality belong between a ‘baby’ and his sponsor,” and should not be introduced into AA meetings. “Prayer and Bible reading was a prerequisite, Clarence felt, but only at home.” To conclude the story, in late October 1939, the Akron alcoholics also quit going to T. Henry and Clarace Williams’s home, and began holding their big weekly meeting at Dr. Bob’s house. Then in January 1940 they moved the meeting to King School. AA’s break with the Oxford Group was now complete. ========================================= From: Michael Gwirtz (shakey1aa at aol.com) He was responding to Baileygc23@aol.com who had written: Third group met in Cleveland in May of 1939. MIKE'S RESPONSE The Cleveland group wasn't the THIRD AA group but the FIRST AA group: The first A.A.(Alcoholics Anonymous) Group was Cleveland, Ohio started by Clarence Snyder on May 11 1939. It was at the home of Al(Abby) G. The night before he told the Akron Oxford Group Alcoholic Squad that he and the Cleveland contingent were leaving the Oxford Group (O.G.). He had a fight with his sponsor, Dr.Bob, who did not wish to leave the O.G. It was perhaps the first time Clarence disobeyed his sponsor. It did not make him the most popular fellow in the Fellowship.All meetings prior to that date were O.G. Alcoholic fellowship meetings.It was done so that the Catholic membership of the Cleveland squad could continue A.A. with the approval of their church. Clarence said, " we're gonna start our own Group in Cleveland ... It's gonna be known as Alcoholics Anonymous." See How It Worked CH 5.1 by Mitchell K. Those more interested can read PIO pg 203,AACOA pg 21 and N-G pg's 78-80. Akron is the birthplace of A.A. and Cleveland is the birthplace of the 1st A.A. Group. GLENN ANSWERED MIKE: On Oct 1, 2011, at 5:43 PM, "glennccc" wrote: Mike, what would be the point of this? Look at all the past messages we have devoted to beating this over the head, over and over again. If we post this, we'll just start up that old dispute all over again! One person will jump in on one side, and then another person will jump in on the other side, and then everybody else will jump in, on one side or the other. And there's no way that the people on one side will EVER convince the people on the other side. MIKE RESPONDED BACK: That is not it's purpose. Cleve was the 1 st AA Group. AA literature says so quite clearly. Recovery from the disease started with membership in the OG alcoholic squad. The first AA group was Cleve on the 11th at Al G's home. Clarence should be given that credit no matter how unpopular the view might be. This may be splitting hairs but it is correct AA history and to not post the correct history is not what AAHL is about. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7672. . . . . . . . . . . . 15th NAAAW a Success From: gerrynmt . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2011 10:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The 15th National AA Archives Workshop took place in Helena, Montana, on September 22-25. With 144 total registrants, the event was a success and a great experience for everyone involved. We on the event planning committee would like to extend our sincere thanks to all the presenters, and attendees, especially those who traveled such long distances to be there. This was a truly unique and special event for us all to be involved in. Montana hospitality, along with archival information, both practical and historical, was enjoyed by all. For those of you didn't attend this year, or, who have never attend an NAAAW, The bad news is, you missed a good one this year. COCOA BEACH IN 2012 The good news, however, is next October 4-7, you will have an opportunity to attend the 16th NAAAW, in Cocoa Beach, Florida, which, by all indications, is going to be a remarkable experience. The official theme for next year's workshop is "Passing It On," but, those who attended this year's event understand the unofficial theme to be "It's going down Don!" Don't miss this one folks! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7673. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob and going through the steps more than once From: Roy Levin . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2011 4:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was listening to a "Book Thumper" guru who mentioned that Dr. Tiebout had a big influence on Dr. Bob (not Bill, but rather Bob). He claimed that Dr. Bob believed in going through the steps more than once, as Dr. Tiebout believed that the Alcholic Ego would grow back, therefore continued re-doing of the steps was advisable. Any information on the veracity of this statement? I didn't see anything that verifies it in Comes of Age or Dr. Bob and The Good Oldtimers. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7674. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: eomen in early AA From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2011 2:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From "J. Lobdell" (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) How early? "early" meaning 193_ to 19__? And does this have anything to do with the book on women in early AA being discussed at the New York office? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7675. . . . . . . . . . . . Was Greystone Asylum the 1st asylum Twelfth Step call? From: robertc . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/30/2011 2:29:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Man on the Bed, Bill D , AA #3, was the first Treatment or Hospital Twelfth Step Call, (sober June 28, 1935 -- 18 days after Founders Day). San Quentin Prison (California) was the first Correctional or institutional Twelfth Step call that I know of. Was Greystone Asylum in New York State the first asylum Twelfth Step call? Thanks, Bob C Vista, California IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7676. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How was Bill W nominated for the Lasker Award? From: robertc . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/30/2011 2:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Robert C., Charles Knapp, and Patricia - - - - From: "robertc" (fallsoffmotorcycle at gmail.com) "â¦on the recommendation of twelve thousand physicians of the National Public Health Service Associationâ¦." from p. 312 of Robert Thomsen, Bill W.: The absorbing and deeply moving life story of Bill Wilson, co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous (Hazelden, 1999). (Google is your friend, at least when you need information quickly) - - - - From: Charles Knapp (cpknapp at yahoo.com) It is hard to tell who nominated AA for the award without knowing what the nominating process was back in 1951. I am sure it has changed several times over the years as the award has become more prestigious. Today, according to the Lasker Foundation web site, it looks like any one can nominate candidates. From my research the Lasker Award for 1951 was given out by the Albert and Mary Lasker Foundation and presented at the annual meeting of the American Public Health Association. According to the APHA's publication, The American Journal of Public Health and The Nation's Health, The Lasker Award was given out at their annual meeting from 1946 until about 1960. Starting in 1962 the Albert and Mary Lasker Foundation started having a luncheon where the award was presented. I have found twice in its history when the award was not given. That was in 1961 and 1990. I would suggest getting in touch with the Lasker Foundation and perhaps they have an archivist or historian that could answer your question. Here is their contact information: Albert and Mary Lasker Foundation 110 E. 42nd Street, Suite 1300 New York, NY 10017 Phone: 212-286-0222 Charles from Wisconsin - - - - From: Patricia (pdixonrae at yahoo.com) This Grapevine publication might help. http://www.aamuncie.org/files/Lasker_Award_Health-Group-Honors-AA-Dec-1951.p df IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7679. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Was Greystone Asylum the 1st asylum Twelfth Step call? From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2011 5:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Rockland State Hospital (Rockland County, New York) was the first -- and btw Greystone is in New Jersey. - - - - > From: fallsoffmotorcycle@gmail.com > Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 > > The Man on the Bed, Bill D , AA #3, was the first Treatment or Hospital Twelfth Step Call, (sober June 28, 1935 -- 18 days after Founders Day). > > San Quentin Prison (California) was the first Correctional or institutional Twelfth Step call that I know of. > > Was Greystone Asylum in New York State the first asylum Twelfth Step call? > > Thanks, > Bob C > Vista, California IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7680. . . . . . . . . . . . Source of quote: profanity is not a sign of spiritual progress From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2011 4:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What is the source of the quote "Profanity is not a sign of spiritual progress"? A google search wasn't very productive. Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7681. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob and Dr. Tiebout From: bigbookjoe . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2011 10:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is a recording from Dr. Tiebout from the 1960 Long Beach International where he talks about the topic of the self-repairing ego in some detail, but not in reference to Dr. Bob. This thread is the first time I've known direct link between Tiebout and Dr. Bob, but it would make sense. The MP3 wound up in my personal collection, but I have no note as to the actual source. It may be xa-speakers.org or justloveaudio.com. By the way, on of his asides that struck me was "It is not by accident that my profession is known as 'headshrinkers'." :o) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7682. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob and going through the steps more than once From: aa061035 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2011 10:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is "The Tiebout Papers Collection" published by Hazelden. The pamphlet that most closely matches is "The Ego Factors in Surrender in Alcoholism," see: http://thejaywalker.com/pages/tiebout And there is Tiebout's opinion at the end of the webpage on "The 12 Steps as Ego Deflating Devices": http://thejaywalker.com/pages/tiebout/tibout_ego.def.html Of course, Jung has a different view. Previously posted: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1054 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7683. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 15th NAAAW a Success From: Archives Historie . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2011 10:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 15th National AA Archives Workshop I am so pleased it was a success! I'm sure Don will be as pleased when he attends next year's in Cocoa Beach, Florida, as he was this year. (Going down Don LOL) FOR INFORMATION ABOUT COCOA BEACH IN 2012 our email address is NAW2012@yahoo.com Hope to see you all there. Learning IS fun! Dave W IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7684. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: first prison meeting -- Philadelphia not San Quentin From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2011 6:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The first prison meeting was by the Philadelphia Mother Group in 1940 at the House of Correction. Jimmy B went to find alkies at prisons and institutions. This was two years before San Quentin. - - - - From: fallsoffmotorcycle@gmail.com Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 > > San Quentin Prison (California) was the first Correctional or institutional Twelfth Step call that I know of. > > Thanks, > Bob C > Vista, California IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7685. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Blythewood From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2011 1:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, folks - Wish we could provide a firm date for Marty and Grennie's establishment of the AA meeting at Blythewood (Greenwich, Connecticut) but it would have been in the summer of 1939. Dave and I sent all our research to Brown a couple of years ago, however, so I can't tell you the source of the info. I see, however, that we qualify our statement with a "probably," so presumably we couldn't be exact about the date for some reason. See p. 121 of the Marty Mann bio. Shalom - Sally Rev Sally Brown, MS, MDiv Board Certified Clinical Chaplain, United Church of Christ Coauthor with David R Brown: A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann, The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous 1470 Sand Hill Rd #310, Palo Alto, California 94304 www.sallyanddavidbrown.com Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7687. . . . . . . . . . . . What was the Matt Talbot Club circa December 1939? From: bigbookjoe . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/4/2011 3:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I first found it on Barefoot Bob's timeline, but a google search shows three pages that all have the same information - "December 1939 - Matt Talbot Club has 88 Members uses AA literature to collect used furniture..." etc. What in the world was the Matt Talbot Club back at that period of history, and does anyone have more information? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7688. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Source of quote: profanity is not a sign of spiritual progress From: Sherry C. Hartsell . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/4/2011 3:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Profanity is not a sign of spiritual progress." I'm not at all certain one can rightly attribute this sentiment to anyone, but I'll claim it as truth! Sherry c.h. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7689. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Clarence -- Barefoot Bob''s timeline From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/5/2011 4:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To bigbookjoe: I have searched online and cannot find the datelist which you refer to as "Barefoot Bob's timeline." In particular, I have searched through Barefootsworld at http://www.barefootsworld.net/aahistory.html for that title, and also for notable words and phrases from the timeline you posted, and cannot find anything there that seems to match up with it. Can you tell us more about that document and where you found it? Thanks, Glenn Chesnut South Bend, Indiana ___________________________________________ Message No. 7686 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7686 "bigbookjoe" (bigbookjoe at yahoo.com) says: The dates of the recognized MEETINGS, drawn primarily from Barefoot Bob's timeline, are given as: 1935 June 10 - Bill W. and Dr. Bob first meet at home of Henrietta Seiberling - Oxford Group connection July 4 - Bill W., Dr. Bob and Bill D. - Oxford Group Nov - Bill W., Hank P. and Fitz M - Oxford Group 1937 Jan 15 - Fitz M goes to Washington DC and starts a group - Oxford Group Feb 11 - Hank P starts a group in NJ - Oxford Group December 13 - First institutional meeting at Rockland State Mental hospital - Oxford Group 1938 February 11 - Clarence Sobriety date - Akron - Dr. Bob's Oxford Group March or May - Bill W. starts writing book (no title) - Oxford Group July 15 - Bill W. first uses name "ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS" in letter to Dr. Richards (Johns Hopkins) as name of book. December - Bill W. writes "The Twelve Steps" in 'you' form 1939 January - 400 Multilith (not mimeograph) copies of "ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS" manuscript distributed January 3 - first "Works, Inc." stock sold January 8 - NYC Group splits from Oxford Group, meeting in Bill's Clinton Street home (AA #1) February - Dr. Harry Tiebout endorses book "ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS" and uses it his clients May 1 - Wilson home foreclosed - Oxford Group "alcoholic squad" home meeting stopped May 11 - Clarence's "ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS" living room meeting in Cleveland- AA July 4 - Flatbush NY AA Group July 14 - Dr Tiebout gives book to Marty Mann, who throws it back at him August 16 - Dr. Bob and Sister Ignatia admit first patient to "Alcoholic care" at Akron City Hospital September 13 - Earl T starts first Chicago AA group - AA September 30 - Liberty Magazine article appears October 1939 - Central Committee formed in Cleveland, OH - AA November - Meeting moved from T Henry & Clarace Williams home to Dr. Bob's Home November 21 - First San Francisco meeting (Clift Hotel) - AA December 1939 - First Los Angeles meeting (home - Kaye M) - AA December - Matt Talbot Club has 88 Members (see separate email) - uses AA literature to collect used furniture and reach drunks outside the AA "middle/upper class" system 1940 January 4 - First Detroit meeting - AA January 10 - First King School Meeting (replaced Dr. Bob's home meeting) - AA December - First Ashtabula, OH meeting - AA 1941 March 1 - Saturday Evening Post Article - Jack Alexander March 7 - First Boston MA meeting - AA March 9 - First Witchta, KS meeting - AA March 15 - First Haven, CT meeting - AA First listing of any CT meeting I have found no documentation for a Connecticut meeting prior to the March 15th New Haven, altho other living room and hotel meetings are documented. This date is prior to Dr. Tiebout's introduction What is the source for the claim of Mann's hotel room meeting in Connecticut (and where). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7690. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Clarence -- Barefoot Bob''s timeline From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/4/2011 5:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From John B (jax760), Mike Barns, and Dov - - - - From: John B. (jax760 atyahoo.com) I have not seen this timeline (copied below at the bottom of this page) but I would toss it out and not use it. It's the worse timeline and reporting of AA history I have ever seen. God Bless John B - - - - From: Mike Barns (mikeb384 at verizon.net) BigBookJoe writes: BUT the dates of the recognized MEETINGS, drawn primarily from Barefoot Bob's timeline, are given as: 1935 June 10 - Bill W. and Dr. Bob first meet at home of Henrietta Seiberling -Oxford Group connection But the actual date of that event was nearly a month earlier: Henrietta Seiberling, daughter-in-law of the founder of the Goodyear Rubber Company, invites Bill to the Seiberling estate, where she lives in the gatehouse (right). She tells him of the struggle of Dr. Robert S., and the meeting of the two men takes place the next day - Mother's Day, May 12, 1935. In the privacy of the library, Bill spills out his story, inspiring "Dr. Bob" to share his own. As the meeting ends hours later, Dr. Bob realizes how much spiritual support can come as the result of one alcoholic talking to another alcoholic. Mike Barns - - - - From: "Dov" (dovwcom at gmail.com) > March or May - Bill W. starts writing book (no title) - Oxford Group > July 15 - Bill W. first uses name "ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS" in letter > to Dr. Richards (Johns Hopkins) as name of book. I am puzzled by the insistence that the name "Alcoholics Anonymous" was first used in June despite documentary evidence to the contrary. Although there has been discussion of the significance of an early handwritten document describing the Big Book project and how to describe it on this thread http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4284 the established, agreed and unquestioned facts seem to be: 1) The document has in Bill's handwriting the words "Hanks ideas" 2) Its contents clearly indicate that it was written at the outset of the project which would seem to place it somewhere between March - May of 1938 3) The name "Alcoholics Anonymous" appears on numbered pages 6 and 7 of the document and are used as the name of the book and the fellowship To me it seems that we would do well to separate the discussion of when the name "Alcoholics Anonymous" was first used on which there seems to be little question based on the documentary evidence from the more controversial discussion of how much role Hank P had in the creation of the Big Book program pages? ============================================= BAREFOOT BOB'S TIMELINE Message No. 7686 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7686 "bigbookjoe" (bigbookjoe at yahoo.com) says: BUT the dates of the recognized MEETINGS, drawn primarily from Barefoot Bob's timeline, are given as: 1935 June 10 - Bill W. and Dr. Bob first meet at home of Henrietta Seiberling - Oxford Group connection July 4 - Bill W., Dr. Bob and Bill D. - Oxford Group Nov - Bill W., Hank P. and Fitz M - Oxford Group 1937 Jan 15 - Fitz M goes to Washington DC and starts a group - Oxford Group Feb 11 - Hank P starts a group in NJ - Oxford Group December 13 - First institutional meeting at Rockland State Mental hospital - Oxford Group 1938 February 11 - Clarence Sobriety date - Akron - Dr. Bob's Oxford Group March or May - Bill W. starts writing book (no title) - Oxford Group July 15 - Bill W. first uses name "ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS" in letter to Dr. Richards (Johns Hopkins) as name of book. December - Bill W. writes "The Twelve Steps" in 'you' form 1939 January - 400 Multilith (not mimeograph) copies of "ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS" manuscript distributed January 3 - first "Works, Inc." stock sold January 8 - NYC Group splits from Oxford Group, meeting in Bill's Clinton Street home (AA #1) February - Dr. Harry Tiebout endorses book "ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS" and uses it his clients May 1 - Wilson home foreclosed - Oxford Group "alcoholic squad" home meeting stopped May 11 - Clarence's "ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS" living room meeting in Cleveland- AA July 4 - Flatbush NY AA Group July 14 - Dr Tiebout gives book to Marty Mann, who throws it back at him August 16 - Dr. Bob and Sister Ignatia admit first patient to "Alcoholic care" at Akron City Hospital September 13 - Earl T starts first Chicago AA group - AA September 30 - Liberty Magazine article appears October 1939 - Central Committee formed in Cleveland, OH - AA November - Meeting moved from T Henry & Clarace Williams home to Dr. Bob's Home November 21 - First San Francisco meeting (Clift Hotel) - AA December 1939 - First Los Angeles meeting (home - Kaye M) - AA December - Matt Talbot Club has 88 Members (see separate email) - uses AA literature to collect used furniture and reach drunks outside the AA "middle/upper class" system 1940 January 4 - First Detroit meeting - AA January 10 - First King School Meeting (replaced Dr. Bob's home meeting) - AA December - First Ashtabula, OH meeting - AA 1941 March 1 - Saturday Evening Post Article - Jack Alexander March 7 - First Boston MA meeting - AA March 9 - First Witchta, KS meeting - AA March 15 - First Haven, CT meeting - AA First listing of any CT meeting I have found no documentation for a Connecticut meeting prior to the March 15th New Haven, altho other living room and hotel meetings are documented. This date is prior to Dr. Tiebout's introduction What is the source for the claim of Mann's hotel room meeting in Connecticut (and where). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7692. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What was the Matt Talbot Club circa December 1939? From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/4/2011 5:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Baileygc23@aol.com, Jared Lobdell, Glenn Chesnut, and bigbookjoe - - - - From (Baileygc23 at aol.com) CLARENCE SNYDER WROTE TO RUTH HOCK ABOUT THE MATT TALBOT WAGON CLUB IN DEC. 1939 From DR Bob and the Good Old Timers Chapter XV, "Sudden Growth in Cleveland," pp. 210-211: "There was another significant development, which doesn't seem to have been recorded in earlier A.A. histories." Clarence wrote to Ruth Hock on December 12, 1939, that the "Matt Talbot Wagon Club" now had 88 members and "is doing a wonderful job." The "wagons" were used to collect old furniture, which members reconditioned and sold. As Clarence put it, they "had caught fire from the Liberty article and the Plain Dealer." "We are working closely with them. They have no benefit of hospitalization or home setup. All are transients, stumblebums, and social outcasts. There are nine of them working now. They are using our stuff and following much the same pattern in every way that it can be applied to their needs and setup." (Matt Talbot was a Catholic who was an alcoholic who predated AA.) - - - - MATT TALBOT CLUB IN ST. LOUIS From: "J. Lobdell" (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) So far as I know the Matt Talbot Club was a St Louis operation, possibly in the Florissant section, and possibly related to Father Ed. - - - - SONS OF MATT TALBOT IN INDIANAPOLIS From Glenn Chesnut in http://www.aabibliography.com/ralph_phau_golden_books_john_doe_alcoholics.ht ml The A.A. Central Office in Indianapolis (where Father Ralph made his headquarters at the Convent of the Good Shepherd) has in its archives one of the original souvenir booklets printed and distributed at the A.A. weekend spiritual retreat at St. Joseph College in Rensselaer, Indiana on June 6-8, 1947. That's where the Golden Books got started. All the early printings of the Golden Books which I had seen up to that point said they were published by The SMT Guild, Inc., P.O. Box 313, Indianapolis. The souvenir booklet in the Indianapolis A.A. office however says Copyright 1947, The Sons of Matt Talbot, Indianapolis. I talked for several hours with one of Father Ralph's last surviving close relatives while I was in Indy, and she said that this is what the SMT stood for in The SMT Guild, that is, Sons of Matt Talbot. The Golden Books were actually printed at Abbey Press at St. Meinrad's Archabbey in southern Indiana she said (that was where Ralph went to seminary), but orders were taken and mailed out in Indianapolis from the SMT Guild post office box address. Abbey Press didn't take orders or mail out copies, all they did was the actual printing. The souvenir booklet has a picture of Matt Talbot (1856-1925) at the back, and a short account of his life. He was an Irishman with a bad drinking problem, who got sober in 1884 by turning his life over to God, and starting work with other alcoholics. There has been a movement since 1931 to have Matt Talbot officially canonized as a Roman Catholic saint. What is interesting is that, although Ralph had begun to realize in 1947 that his message was designed to be heard by a much wider audience, and that he could not phrase it in narrowly Roman Catholic language (because for example the majority of people at the previous year's St. Joseph weekend retreat, the first one he held, were actually Protestant), he was still not fully ready to cut the umbilical cord connecting him with his Roman Catholic roots when he put that 1947 souvenir booklet together. He even has a Roman Catholic prayer for the canonization of Matt Talbot at the very end of the booklet! That was going to change pretty quickly though. He rapidly began to realize that he couldn't even keep it confined to Christian circles, because there were Jews and others in A.A. who did not identify themselves as Christians as all. - - - - From: "bigbookjoe" (bigbookjoe at yahoo.com) Thanks to Stephan A., I was able to identify some threads of the Matt Talbot mystery regarding the 88 alcoholics in a "Matt Talbot Club" that used AA literature and gathered used furniture circa December 1939. Talbot was born in Dublin, Ireland on May 2, 1856 and died June 7, 1925. He has a fairly well documented life as a drunk and thief, worked as an unskilled laborer when he could. When three friends refused to help him while begging money for another drink at the age of 34 he took "the Pledge" - which is sometimes still given to Catholics to renounce drinking. He took the first Pledge for three months, then renewed the Pledge for six month and finally took the Pledge for life. He lived simply, tried to make restitution for his petty crimes while drunk (including the return of a fiddle he had stolen and sold for more drink). In 1931, Pope Pius opened investigations to prepare the way for sainthood, starting with Veneration. He is currently the Venerable Matt Talbot and being investigated by the Holy see for Canonization as "Blessed", the step before Sainthood. Talbot is currently the patron Saint for alcoholics, although not yet Canonized. There are currently at least two treatment centers (Washington and Minnesota) and a retreat organization in Connecticut (possibly two separate organizations for retreats) using his name. There was an objection to Catholics participating in the Oxford Group, and the Matt Talbot Group may have been moving in parallel with OG/AA in Catholic circles. The statement that they used "AA Literature" in their effort is odd, since the Cleveland pamphlet, based the facts that the Big Book had been out for about 9 months, and Rev. Dilworth's sermon "Mr. X and Alcoholics Anonymous" had just been published as a pamphlet. - - - - NOTE FROM GLENN C. -- USING AA LITERATURE? NOT CLEAR. Clarence Snyder didn't say that the Matt Talbot Wagon Club was "using AA literature," or not quite. In Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers (pp. 210-211), Clarence is quoted as saying "They are using our stuff and following much the same pattern in every way that it can be applied to their needs and setup." We don't really know what Clarence meant when he said that they were "using our stuff." That doesn't necessarily mean literature. And even if it does, it could have meant no more than the Big Book. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7693. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Blythewood From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/4/2011 5:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Friday, June 16, 1939 Entry in Lois's Diary confirms Bill attended meeting in Greenwich, Connecticut. God Bless John B - - - - In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Sally Brown" wrote: > Hi, folks - Wish we could provide a firm date for Marty and Grennie's establishment of the AA meeting at Blythewood (Greenwich, Connecticut) but it would have been in the summer of 1939. > > Dave and I sent all our research to Brown a couple of years ago, however, so I can't tell you the source of the info. I see, however, that we qualify our statement with a "probably," so presumably we couldn't be exact about the date for some reason. > > See p. 121 of the Marty Mann bio. > > Shalom - Sally > > Rev Sally Brown, MS, MDiv > Board Certified Clinical Chaplain, United Church of Christ > Coauthor with David R Brown: > A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann, The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous > 1470 Sand Hill Rd #310, Palo Alto, California 94304 > www.sallyanddavidbrown.com > Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7694. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Was Greystone Asylum the 1st asylum Twelfth Step call? From: robertc . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/5/2011 5:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you. I stand corrected .... --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "J. Lobdell" wrote: > Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Rockland State Hospital (Rockland County, New York) was the first -- and btw Greystone is in New Jersey. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7695. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Clarence -- on Barefoot Bob''s timeline -- see Arthur S''s timeline From: Jim Myers . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/6/2011 1:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello BigBookJoe, Here is a pretty good A.A. Timeline done by Arthur S. of the Northeast Texas area. This public version, which only shows the first name and last initial of A.A members, is from April 2004 (non A.A. members show, both, first and last names. I am still awaiting an updated public version from Arthur S. which he indicated to me some time back that he was working on. This timeline has much information and you may find what your looking for there, though maybe worded differently. http://www.silkworth.net/timelines/timelines_public/timelines_public.html Arthur also has an updated version for A.A. members only, located in the Members Only area of the above site, dated August 2009. Yours in service, Jim M, http://www.silkworth.net/ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7696. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Women in early AA From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/6/2011 9:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here is a starting contribution from the info I have at my fingertips. Listing below does not indicate that they achieved permanent sobriety. In fact many did not. For additional names as of Feb 1941 (or possibly later) see the Cleveland 220 List. 1. Jane Sturdevant - Feb 1937 - The Amos List 2. Florence Rankin - Sept 1937 - GSO Pioneer Questionaire, Bill W. Correspondence 3. Edith Scott - Jan 1938 - The Amos List 4. Hazel Cloos - March 1939 - The NJ Survey 5. Marty Mann - April 11, 1939 6. Sylvia Kauffman - September 13, 1939 - DBGO 7. Helen Penhale - September 1939-NJ Survey Jan 1, 1940 PS. I may have previously posted the wrong date for Helen whom I had mixed up with Hazel. Helen was in the photo taken at the 24th Street Club House which appeared in the 1941 Post Article. Also worth looking at is a Marty Mann sponsee named Nona - late summer of 1938 - - - - NOTE FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR FIRST 226 MEMBERS -- AKRON Tommy Hickcox has provided us with this list. There are some women's names on it. Sylvia Kauffman is the only one who shows up on both this list of Tommy's and John's list of seven names above. First 226 Members: Akron, OH AA Group see http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226b.html and http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226.doc IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7697. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Women in early AA From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/7/2011 10:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Typo on the note about Nona - Late summer of 1939 - - - - AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, John Barton wrote: > > Also worth looking at is a Marty Mann sponsee named Nona - late summer of 1938 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7698. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Women in early AA From: John Moore . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/6/2011 3:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sybil Doris Adams Statton Hart Maxwell Willis Corwin Joined AA in Los Angeles, the Mother Group. She got sober shortly after the Jack Alexander Article in the Saturday Evening Post (pub date March 1 1941). Said to have been the first woman sober in AA west of the Mississippi ... (and before her death I understand that Sybil became our longest sober AA member ... I wish someone could verify this). One of my AA heroes! John IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7699. . . . . . . . . . . . What is a can opener in regards to AA? From: Mike Batty . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/6/2011 4:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can anyone explain the use of the term "can opener" in regards to AA. I thought I was a fairly astute follower of our history but this is a new term to me. Which only proves there is always something to learn. Yours in Service Mike Batty Waterloo, Ontario ___________________________________________ FROM THE MODERATOR (Glenn C., South Bend IN) The term "can opener" seems to have referred to a locally authored and printed AA pamphlet published by a local AA group, originally for the use of their own group's members. But the really well-done ones were re-printed and used by hundreds and thousands of other AA groups all over the U.S. and Canada. Occasionally (as in the case of The Little Red Book and Twenty-Four Hours a Day) they were actually little books rather than short pamphlets. The term "can opener" was used in this sense in a letter from Bobbie Burger, the secretary at the New York A.A. headquarters (then called the Alcoholic Foundation), dated November 11, 1944, written to Barry Collins in Minneapolis. In this letter, the New York AA office gives its full approval to the idea of Minneapolis publishing and using an A.A. pamphlet or booklet which the Minneapolis A.A. people had written themselves. The Little Red Book mentioned before (1st ed. in 1946) was the result, see http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html The Washington D.C. pamphlet (also known as the Detroit pamphlet or the Tablemate or the Table Leader's Guide) was a well known early A.A. "can opener" which was mentioned in Bobbie Burger's letter) see http://hindsfoot.org/detr0.html http://hindsfoot.org/Detr1.html etc. =========================================== November 11, 1944 Dear Barry: . . . The Washington D.C. pamphlet and the new Cleveland "Sponsorship" pamphlet and a host of others are all local projects. We do not actually approve or disapprove of these local pieces; by that I mean that the Foundation feels each Group is entitled to write up its own "can opener" and let it stand on its own merits. All of them have good points and very few have caused any controversy. But as in all things of a local nature, we keep hands off, either pro or con. I think there must be at least 25 local pamphlets now being used and I've yet to see one that hasn't had some good points. I think it is up to each individual Group whether it wants to use and buy these pamphlets from the Group that puts them out. Sincerely, Bobbie (Margaret R. Burger) =========================================== IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7700. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Barefoot''s AA timeline From: robertc . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/6/2011 6:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What was called "Barefoot's AA timeline" as posted in the AAHistoryLovers states that Founder's Day, June 10, 1935, is the date Bill and Bob met at Henrietta's guest house. Founders Day actually represents the day Dr Bob took his last drink, about a month later. Here is a relevant quote from a timeline found at www.aa.org, (edited for length only): "Henrietta Seiberling, daughter-in-law of the founder of the Goodyear Rubber Company, invites Bill to the Seiberling estate, where she lives in the gatehouse .... She tells him of the struggle of Dr. Robert S., and the meeting of the two men takes place the next day - Mother's Day, May 12, 1935 .... hours later, Dr. Bob realizes how much spiritual support can come as the result of one alcoholic talking to another alcoholic." "Dr. Bob lapses into drinking again but quickly recovers. The day widely known as the date of Dr. Bob's last drink, June 10, 1935, is celebrated as the founding date of Alcoholics Anonymous." In service, Bob C. Vista, California IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7701. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What is a can opener in regards to AA? From: M.J. Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/7/2011 1:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Interesting. Any insight into the historical etymology of such a term's usage in A.A.? - - - - On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:31 PM, Mike Batty wrote: > Can anyone explain the use of the term "can opener" in regards to AA. I > thought I was a fairly astute follower of our history but this is a new term > to me. Which only proves there is always something to learn. > > Yours in Service > Mike Batty > Waterloo, Ontario > ___________________________________________ > > > FROM THE MODERATOR (Glenn C., South Bend IN) > > The term "can opener" seems to have referred to a locally authored and > printed AA pamphlet published by a local AA group, originally for the use of > their own group's members. But the really well-done ones were re-printed and > used by hundreds and thousands of other AA groups all over the U.S. and > Canada. Occasionally (as in the case of The Little Red Book and Twenty-Four > Hours a Day) they were actually little books rather than short pamphlets. > > The term "can opener" was used in this sense in a letter from Bobbie > Burger, the secretary at the New York A.A. headquarters (then called the > Alcoholic Foundation), dated November 11, 1944, written to Barry Collins in > Minneapolis. In this letter, the New York AA office gives its full approval > to the idea of Minneapolis publishing and using an A.A. pamphlet or booklet > which the Minneapolis A.A. people had written themselves. > > The Little Red Book mentioned before (1st ed. in 1946) was the result, see > http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html > > The Washington D.C. pamphlet (also known as the Detroit pamphlet or the > Tablemate or the Table Leader's Guide) was a well known early A.A. "can > opener" which was mentioned in Bobbie Burger's letter) see > http://hindsfoot.org/detr0.html > http://hindsfoot.org/Detr1.html > etc. > > =========================================== > November 11, 1944 > > Dear Barry: > > . . . The Washington D.C. pamphlet and the new Cleveland "Sponsorship" > pamphlet and a host of others are all local projects. We do not actually > approve or disapprove of these local pieces; by that I mean that the > Foundation feels each Group is entitled to write up its own "can opener" and > let it stand on its own merits. All of them have good points and very few > have caused any controversy. But as in all things of a local nature, we keep > hands off, either pro or con. I think there must be at least 25 local > pamphlets now being used and I've yet to see one that hasn't had some good > points. I think it is up to each individual Group whether it wants to use > and buy these pamphlets from the Group that puts them out. > > Sincerely, Bobbie (Margaret R. Burger) > =========================================== IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7703. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What Were A.A.''s Pioneering Groups? From: Mike Portz . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/5/2011 4:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Howdy to all, I innocently started this needless debate by asking "what were the pioneering groups in A.A."? In this topic I also asked about a quote found in our "conference approved book" A.A. COMES OF AGE" http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7651 Mike Portz mportz2000@yahoo.com 7894 Ranch Boss Court Las Vegas, NV. 89113 Home (702) 362-9191 Cell (702) 501-9551 ============================================ From: Michael Gwirtz (shakey1aa at aol.com) The Cleveland group wasn't the THIRD AA group but the FIRST AA group: The first A.A.(Alcoholics Anonymous) Group was Cleveland, Ohio started by Clarence Snyder on May 11 1939. It was at the home of Al(Abby) G. The night before he told the Akron Oxford Group Alcoholic Squad that he and the Cleveland contingent were leaving the Oxford Group (O.G.). He had a fight with his sponsor, Dr.Bob, who did not wish to leave the O.G. It was perhaps the first time Clarence disobeyed his sponsor. It did not make him the most popular fellow in the Fellowship.All meetings prior to that date were O.G. Alcoholic fellowship meetings. It was done so that the Catholic membership of the Cleveland squad could continue A.A. with the approval of their church. Clarence said, "we're gonna start our own Group in Cleveland ... It's gonna be known as Alcoholics Anonymous." See How It Worked CH 5.1 by Mitchell K. Those more interested can read PIO pg 203,AACOA pg 21 and N-G pg's 78-80. Akron is the birthplace of A.A. and Cleveland is the birthplace of the 1st A.A. Group. GLENN ANSWERED MIKE: On Oct 1, 2011, at 5:43 PM, "glennccc" wrote: Mike, what would be the point of this? Look at all the past messages we have devoted to beating this over the head, over and over again. If we post this, we'll just start up that old dispute all over again! One person will jump in on one side, and then another person will jump in on the other side, and then everybody else will jump in, on one side or the other. And there's no way that the people on one side will EVER convince the people on the other side. MIKE RESPONDED BACK: That is not it's purpose. Cleve was the 1 st AA Group. AA literature says so quite clearly. Recovery from the disease started with membership in the OG alcoholic squad. The first AA group was Cleve on the 11th at Al G's home. Clarence should be given that credit no matter how unpopular the view might be. This may be splitting hairs but it is correct AA history and to not post the correct history is not what AAHL is about. ============================================ Original message #7651 from "mikey_portz" (mportz2000 at yahoo.com) I've read in several places that the "third" A.A. Group was the "first group in Cleveland" and it was started by our "rogue" pioneer Mr. Clarence Snyder. In "A.A. Comes of Age," on the bottom of page #18, Bill wrote that he believed that "Marty (Mann) pioneered a group in Greenwich (Connecticut) so early in 1939 that some folks now think this one should carry the rating of A.A.'s Group Number Three." So my questions are; 1) Which group actually was A.A.'s "third group." 2. Does anyone have any kind of list that states what our first 25 groups, or 50, or 100, etc. were? If anyone has any other pertinent and interesting information on our "Pioneering" groups, it would be great to hear about it. Thanks in advance for your time and help!! Mike Portz Las Vegas, NV. (702) 501-9551 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7704. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What Were A.A.''s Pioneering Groups? From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/7/2011 1:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sorry Mike, your question was a very good and useful one: "Does anyone have any kind of list that states what our first 25 groups, or 50, or 100, etc. were? If anyone has any other pertinent and interesting information on our 'Pioneering' groups, it would be great to hear about it." And nobody bothered to answer it. Here's part of the answer which I think you were actually looking for: two early lists sent out by the New York AA office: 1. LIST DATED NOVEMBER 14, 1940: http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html (very bottom) and http://hindsfoot.org/bullno1.pdf November 14, 1940 "A list of communities where A.A. work is well established and weekly meetings are held: New York City, N.Y. South Orange, N.J. Washington, D.C. Richmond, Va. Detroit, Michigan Jackson, Michigan Coldwater, Michigan Chicago, Illinois Houston, Texas Los Angeles, Calif. San Francisco, Calif. Evansville, Indiana Little Rock, Arkansas Philadelphia, Pa. Baltimore, Md. Waunakee, Wisconsin Greenwich, Conn. Cleveland, Ohio Akron, Ohio Toledo, Ohio Dayton, Ohio Youngstown, Ohio "There are several 'working' A.A. members in each of the following cities where meetings are in a get together stage." Pittsburgh, Pa. Boston, Mass. Wallingford, Vermont San Diego, California Indianapolis, Ind. ===================================== 2. LIST DATED DECEMBER 31, 1941 http://hindsfoot.org/dec1941.pdf LIST OF ALL THE CITIES WITH A.A. GROUPS as of Dec. 31, 1941 Very impressive growth, going from established groups in 22 cities in November 1940 to three times that number in only one year: this list shows established groups in 69 cities as of December 1941 (plus two other cities handwritten into the list). Sent to us by A.A. archivist and historian Bruce C. from Muncie, Indiana. ===================================== Original message #7651 from "mikey_portz" (mportz2000 at yahoo.com) I've read in several places that the "third" A.A. Group was the "first group in Cleveland" and it was started by our "rogue" pioneer Mr. Clarence Snyder. In "A.A. Comes of Age," on the bottom of page #18, Bill wrote that he believed that "Marty (Mann) pioneered a group in Greenwich (Connecticut) so early in 1939 that some folks now think this one should carry the rating of A.A.'s Group Number Three." So my questions are; 1) Which group actually was A.A.'s "third group." 2. Does anyone have any kind of list that states what our first 25 groups, or 50, or 100, etc. were? If anyone has any other pertinent and interesting information on our "Pioneering" groups, it would be great to hear about it. Thanks in advance for your time and help!! Mike Portz Las Vegas, NV. (702) 501-9551 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7706. . . . . . . . . . . . Jung: real religious experience and happens to you in reality From: caligari . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/6/2011 6:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII (1) What was meant by Carl Jung's phrases "real religious experience" and "happens to you in reality" in his letter to Bill Wilson? (2) Ernie Kurtz states in his article "Bill W. takes LSD" that Bill reported some of his LSD experiences to Jung in his second letter to the psychiatrist. Where can one find a complete copy of Bill's second letter to Jung dated March 20th 1961? ============================================== (1) CARL JUNG SPEAKING ABOUT HAVING TO HAVE "REAL" SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCES I have long puzzled over Carl Jung's choice of words in his January 1961 letter to Bill Wilson. In that letter Jung is talking about the ways of acquiring the sort of experience necessary for people to overcome alcoholism. He states, "The only right and legitimate way to such an experience is that it happens to you in reality, and it can only happen to you when you walk on a path which leads you to higher understanding." Specifically, my question concerns his choice of the words "happens to you in reality." When I first read it I said to myself "how else could it happen to someone, in non-reality?" Then it occurred to me that perhaps Jung might have wished to exclude the use of drugs to induce a spiritual experience (or, for that matter, even to exclude alcohol-induced mystical experiences, as, for example, described by William James in Varieties of Religious Experience). Bill's use of LSD started in the 50's (predating his letter to Jung by almost 5 years). Is it possible that Jung knew of Bill's LSD use, perhaps via the popular press? If Bill's LSD use was not reported (or at least not widely known) prior to January of 1961, why did Jung choose to use the phrase "happens to you in reality"? He seems to emphasize this point again later in the letter by using the phrase "real religious insight." I would appreciate any input on this question. ============================================== (2) COMPLETE COPY OF BILL W'S SECOND LETTER TO JUNG On a related note can anyone tell me where to find a complete copy of Bill's second letter to Jung dated March 20th 1961? Only part of it is quoted in "Pass it On." Ernie Kurtz states in his article "Bill W. takes LSD" that Bill reported some of his LSD experiences to Jung in that second letter. If someone has the complete contents of that letter, I would sincerely appreciate it if they would post it. I realize that Bill's LSD use is not a popular topic. It is however a part of AA history. It is my belief that the words in the promises "We Will Not Regret The Past Nor Wish To Shut The Door On It " applies as much to AA collectively as it does to each one of us personally. Thanks IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7710. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What is a can opener in regards to AA? From: dillonr9@yahoo.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/7/2011 5:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A can opener refers to the likes of the Detroit Pamphlet: a method of doing the AA steps designed for beginners (not that there's any advanced way of doing the steps). Don't Louse It Up. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7711. . . . . . . . . . . . The little cards -- Serenity Prayer -- first AA printings From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/8/2011 2:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A message phoned in to the moderator: does anyone have one of the original little cards which were the first two AA printings of the Serenity Prayer? FIRST PRINTING: Pass It On p. 252 and AA Comes of Age p. 196 say that when the obituary with the Serenity Prayer on it first arrived at the New York AA office, Horace Chrystal had it printed up on small cards and paid for the printing himself. SECOND PRINTING: The second printing was also done on small cards, but was paid for by the New York office. The telephoner said that he had found in a box of AA memorabilia kept by an AA oldtimer who had gotten sober back during that period: A very small card, smaller than a full-sized calling card, printed on a letter press, the short form of the Serenity Prayer. He called the archivists at the New York AA office, and they were still searching he said, but as of this point, they had not found any of those original cards (first printing or second printing) in their archival files. So the question is, does anybody in the AAHistoryLovers have one of the original cards, from either the first or second printing, which they can confidently certify is in fact one of the original cards. Glenn C., Moderator (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7712. . . . . . . . . . . . Format for A.A. meetings -- history of its development From: Jim . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/8/2011 3:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This was an email sent to me by Benny P via the contact form on silkworth.net. How about it - can anyone here answer Benny's questions? I would think that all that he asks were things that came together over the course of time. I researched it and I came to the conclusion that all that he asked did not happen over night - rather piece by piece over the course of time. I suppose, but could be wrong, that each question he asks are bits and pieces of history that would require research for each question he asks, separate one from the other. Could there be a 1st time, some time in AA history, that an official AA Meeting Format was decided upon? If so, where, when ...etc...etc... Yours in service, Jim M. __________________________________________ The following are form results from your web site: Name: Benny P. Email: ben******@yahoo.com Comments: I would like to know the history of the format to chairing a meeting. Why we read the preamble, pass the basket during the meeting (not before or after), why we identify ourselves before we speak, why we read the 12 traditions in part or whole, why we read the promises at the meeting and so forth. What I want to know when and how did this start. I know that How It Works started in California due to one man and the groups in California picked it up. Any info would be greatly appreciated. __________________________________________ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7713. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Source of quote: profanity is not a sign of spiritual progress From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/5/2011 5:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Rick Tompkins, Baileygc23, Charley Bill, Glenn Chesnut, Mike Blanchard, and John Moore - - - - From: "ricktompkins" (ricktompkins at comcast.net) "KINDNESS IS SPOKEN HERE" The Chicago Area Service Office hosts a noontime closed meeting AA Group, going on now for over fifty years. Before one of the office's moves to different locations in the downtown Loop (over 20 years ago) there was a stand-alone sign on the wall saying this, that always looked like it had a number of years' mileage. That took profanity out of the AA discussions, and if it was heard, the chair of the meeting quickly would remind the person using obscenity. Rick, illinois - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) I looked on foul language as the way new comers tested the boundaries of the group, but it is now in vogue by a number of people with long term sobriety. Bill W said new people are sensitive to aggression in the name of spirituality. I know how to swear, but one should not do it around women and children unless one is married to the parent of the children. To the less offended, it does give a comic slant to one's expounding on the first three steps. - - - - From: Charley Bill (charley92845 at gmail.com) Dr Joe Zuska told us that profanity was a sign of emotional immaturity. He would follow with a question: "Why would you want to advertise that you are emotionally immature?" Joe was the co-founder, with Cdr. Dick Jewell, of the US Navy's alcoholism rehabilitation service. - - - - From: Glenn Chesnut (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) Sgt. Bill Swegan, the AA oldtimer (sober in 1948) who started the U.S. Air Force's alcoholism treatment center at Lackland AFB in San Antonio, told me often that the excessive use of profanity did not come in until the Vietnam War period (in the 1960's), and that he believed that it was tied into the sudden incursion of lots of people in AA who were also drug addicts. Since the drugs they were using were illegal, they were psychologically more antisocial, he said, and determined to flaunt every possible social rule of behavior as blatantly as possible. Their attempt to break all the norms of social behavior and throw it into everyone's faces constantly, was self-destructive in the extreme -- they found it difficult or impossible to hold most jobs, etc. -- and it was a symptom of hatred of the whole world and a massive underlying global resentment, that was going to kill them if they did not figure out ways to start healing that underlying hatred and resentment. It should also be said that television and the cinema in the U.S. began allowing a good deal more profanity and obscenity during the 1960's, and a lot of American night club "humor" nowadays seems to consist of saying m-f as part of every sentence in the comedian's monologue. In this respect, AA meetings in the U.S. simply began reflecting the general culture. But Sgt. Bill's main observation seems to be unquestioned historical fact: AA meetings in the U.S. in the early days (in the 1940's for example) tolerated little or no use of profane or obscene language during meetings. The men also dressed in coats and ties, which was recognized by them as a sign of SELF RESPECT, and a determination to lift their lives out of the gutter where they had been lying. - - - - From: Mike Blanchard (mykeblanch at yahoo.com) The statement "profanity is not a sign of spiritual progress" has been around AA at least 20 years. My first meeting in early 1990 at the 180 club in Hyattstown MD. had one of those old computer printout signs with that exact saying on it. It is about all I remember from that meeting, but it always spoke to me. - - - - From: John Moore (contact.johnmoore at gmail.com) Sign on wall at Wilson House, East Dorset Vermont: "The absence of profanity will offend no one" My home group reads this statement as part of our meeting format. John M Burlington, Vermont IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7714. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Format for A.A. meetings -- history of its development From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/8/2011 6:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As groups get older they become more structured. If is very normal to add more and more rituals to the meetings as time goes by. I do not remember them reading How it works or the promises at most of the meetings. Now we even have meetings where people spend fifteen minuets reading from the big book or from one of the other AA books. New people can come into the rooms and do not know what it is all about. If my memory is correct, people did not hold hands at the end of the meetings or get in circles, so if one did not want to participate in any prayers, it was not so noticeable. Now people chant along with someone reading things during the meetings. Reminds me of kids movies during the thirties. I expect to see someone in a pith helmet snatching the jewel out of the AA statue's third eye during one of the chants. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7715. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob and going through the steps more than once From: chouki fogiel . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/4/2011 10:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII joe hawk us talking about going through the steps again and ... reffering to dr. bob - - - - FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR: I believe that chouki fogiel is referring here to Joe Hawk of Santa Monica, California -- see Messages 6283, 6285, and 6338 The latter message says that Joe Hawks gave a 12 Step Big Book Study, around September of 1992, when he was at a Salvation Army Shelter, and he was 5 years sober. There were 12 tapes in the set. The author of that message also said that he had found one by Joe Hawks with 8 tapes, given when he was 10 years sober. Also see Message 4549: Joe Hawk died May 27, 2007 in a hotel in Brazil of undetermined causes. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7716. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How tall were Bill W. and Dr. Bob? From: robtwoodson . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/7/2011 11:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII THE EXPERTS SPEAK! Ernie Kurtz and Woody in Akron - - - - From: Ernie Kurtz (kurtzern at umich.edu) Bob's height was 6'4" [1.93 meters] according to Sue Smith Windows, p. 22 of _Children of the Healer: The Story of Dr. Bob's Kids_ - - - - From: "robtwoodson" (wdywdsn at sbcglobal.net) Bernadette, Hopefully, this description may help you. The Big Book, Alcoholics Anonymous, Fourth Edition, p. 185: AA Number Three, Bill D., describes first seeing Bill and Dr. Bob, "I looked up and there were two great big fellows over six foot tall, very likeable looking." Yours in Service, Be a good girl, Woody in Akron . . . . In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, bernadette macleod wrote: > > I know that Dr. Bob was raised in St Johnsbury, Vt and Bill W. was born and raised in East Dorset, Vt., both Vermonters who were said to be tall gentlemen. Does anyone know how tall they were on this 'archival' website? > > bernadette m. king city group > richmond hill, ontario, canada IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7717. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The little cards -- Serenity Prayer -- first AA printings From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/8/2011 6:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A little more background (which I accidentally left out) about how the Serenity Prayer was first discovered by AA, and the first two AA printings: - - - - Message #6126 from Glenn Chesnut noted that: AA Bulletin No. 3 (June 20, 1941) announced the discovery of what was later to be called the Serenity Prayer: "One of our New York members clipped the following from the personal column of a New York paper, and since it seems to 'hit the spot', here it is:" "God grant me the serenity to accept things I cannot change, courage to change things I can, and wisdom to know the difference." For a photographic copy of AA Bulletin No. 3, and its version of THE SERENITY PRAYER, see http://hindsfoot.org/bullno3.pdf - - - - Message #1965 from Arthur S. AA Comes of Age from AAWS (pg 196) 1957 Has it occurring in 1942. Wording of prayer is slightly different using the pronouns "us" and "we." In early 1942, nonalcoholic Secretary Ruth Hock left us to be married .... Just before Ruth left, a news clipping whose content was to become famous was called to our attention by a New York member, newsman Jack. It was an obituary notice from a New York paper Underneath a routine account of the one who had died, there appeared these words: "God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change, courage to change the things we can and wisdom to know the difference." .. Howard walked into the office. Confirming our own ideas, he exclaimed, "We ought to print this on cards and drop one into every piece of mail that goes out of here. I'll pay for the first printing." Bill W by Robert Thomsen (pgs 261-262) 1975 Has it occurring in Newark, NJ - which places it in early 1940 One morning Ruth found in the mail a newspaper clipping containing a three-line prayer. It had been torn from an unidentified newspaper and sent in by an anonymous member. She read it and was instantly struck by how much AA thinking could be compressed into three short lines. On her own, Ruth had the prayer printed on cards, and without asking anyone, she began slipping a card into each piece of mail that went out from the Newark office. ... And in this way the Serenity Prayer became part of the AA canon, its phrases part of the alcoholic lingo. Pass It On from AAWS (pg 252) 1984 No date is given for the letter used as a point of reference but the news article is placed in 1941 ... The prayer had found its way into the Vesey Street office shortly before that letter was written ... It was discovered in the "In Memorium" column of an early June 1941 edition of the New York Herald Tribune. The exact wording was "Mother -- God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference. Goodbye." Said Ruth "Jack C appeared at the office one morning, and he showed me the obituary notice with the 'Serenity Prayer.' I was as much impressed with it as he was and asked him to leave it with me so that I could copy and use it in our letters to the groups and loners. Horace C had the idea of printing it on cards and paid for the first printing." Grateful to Have Been There by Nell Wing (pg 167-168) 1992 Seems to be taken from Pass It On -- has Ruth writing to a member in Washington DC on June 12, 1941 The prayer entered unobtrusively in 1941. It was discovered in the "In Memorium" obituary column of an early June edition of the New York Herald Tribune. The exact wording was "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference. Goodbye." Some fifteen years later, reminiscing about this event, Ruth Hock Crecelius, our first non-alcoholic Secretary said: "It is a fact that Jack C appeared at the office [30 Vesey Street, Manhattan] one morning for a chat, during the course of which he showed me the obituary notice with the "Serenity Prayer." I was as much impressed with it as he was and asked him to leave it with me so that I could copy it and use it in our letters to the groups and loners ... At this time, Bobbie B [who became Secretary when Ruth married in February 1942] who was also terrifically impressed with it, undoubtedly used it in her work with the many she contacted daily at the 24th St Clubhouse ... Horace C had the idea of printing it on cards and paid for the first printing. ... On June 12, 1941, Ruth wrote Henry S, a Washington DC member and printer ... [she asked Henry what it would cost to print it on a small card]. Women Pioneers in 12 Step Recovery by C Hunter, B Jones and J Zieger (pgs 79-80) 1999 No mention of dates Ruth played a major part in introducing the serenity Prayer to the Fellowship. Jack C, a New York newspaperman and recovering drunk, brought a newspaper clipping to the office. It was an obituary that closed with the words: "God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change, courage to change the things we can and wisdom to know the difference." Bill and Ruth agreed with Jack that "never had we seen so much AA in so few words." And Ruth began at once to tuck the prayer into the letters she was sending out. Not long afterward, Horace C, an older member and friend of Bill came in with the suggestion to print the prayer on cards that could be included with all the outgoing letters. Everyone thought it was a wonderful idea but they had no money to implement it -- so Horace personally paid to have the cards printed. I think there is a fair chance that the obituary may have been printed prior to June 1941 and it may also be from a newspaper other than the NY Herald Tribune. Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7718. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung: real religious experience and happens to you in reality From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/7/2011 5:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I recently finished reading a fascinating new book, An Anatomy of Addiction, (Howard Markel. Pantheon Books. New York. 2011). It details the cocaine addiction of Freud (11 yrs) and Wm Halsted, the father of modern surgery (he never recovered permanently, his life and career permanently ruined). In the early years of his addiction, Freud actively "pushed" the taking of cocaine on some of his fellow MDs. His experience with the drug must have been well-known among his closest colleagues, certainly by Jung. Dunno if Jung ever did any experimenting himself. But he would have observed, and later after their split, heard about the negative effects of cocaine on Freud and others. Poor Bill Wilson. He was always seeking a way for others to find a shortcut to the spiritual life. I believe Lois called the downstairs study of their home something like "the spook room." No wonder Jung so firmly advised Bill Wilson to watch his step and stick to what's real! PS -- I was intrigued to learn that Freud soon began substituting alcohol binges for cocaine, then dried out -- but apparently lived in a dry drunk the rest of his life. PSS -- I'm reminded of recent research into the use of entheogens to evoke or enhance spiritual experiences. Very dangerous for folks with addictive disease. As my American-East Indian MD colleague at the Palo Alto VA would say, Happy Diwali everyone! Rev Sally Brown, MS, MDiv Board Certified Clinical Chaplain United Church of Christ coauthor with David R Brown: A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7719. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Source of quote: profanity is not a sign of spiritual progress From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/8/2011 7:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII > From Rick Tompkins, Baileygc23, Charley Bill, > Glenn Chesnut, Mike Blanchard, and John Moore Thank you, gentlemen, for the good information. Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7720. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Format for A.A. meetings -- history of its development From: Sherry C. Hartsell . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/8/2011 8:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII HA! I'm for & do practice praying, but I ain't fond of holding hands and shore ain't into chanting ---- wonder how TAMBOREENS would be accepted in East Texas ---- I might even go for sandals and a robe in my old age J Sherry c. h. - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com Subject: Re: Format for A.A. meetings Now people chant along with someone reading things during the meetings. Reminds me of kids movies during the thirties. I expect to see someone in a pith helmet snatching the jewel out of the AA statue's third eye during one of the chants. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7721. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Women in early AA: the story of Lil From: Robt Woodson . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/8/2011 10:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Regarding early women: While she did not remain sober, we would be remiss, when speaking of women pioneers; not to mention the story of Lil (and of course her counterpart Victor [the former Mayor]) who developed the "thirteenth step" in Dr. Bob's office while he was upstairs at the City Club at his Monday night bridge game and who, after a bungled suicide attempt, was later locked (my term) in a room in Dr. Bob's basement for two or three days until her family came to collect her. From pp. 97-98, DBGOT. According to Bill she was the first women they ever worked with, and she left Dr. Bob (for one) unsure as to the feasibility of the idea of working with women in the future. Apparently she later sobered or "straightened out" (according to Sue Smith Windows) without the help of AA. Best, Woody in Akron IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7722. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung: real religious experience and happens to you in reality From: aa061035 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/8/2011 8:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "The only right and legitimate way to such an experience is that it happens to you in reality, and it can only happen to you when you walk on a path which leads you to higher understanding." Jung's theory of synchronicity attempts to establish a relationship between religion and science: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_synchronicity06.htm From "The Myth of Meaning in the Work of C.G. Jung" by Aniela Jaffe, pages 42-43: From the beginning, Jung concentrated on the analysis and interpretation of what presents itself to us as knowledge, as appearance, as a psychic image, knowing quite well that the "transcendental reality" beyond "the world inside and outside ourselves .. is as certain as our own existence" but nevertheless remains an unfathomable mystery. Hence the indistinguishability of God and the unconscious applies merely to the subjective experience and so has to be considered in interpreting the spontaneous religious assertion of individuals and in analysing myths and dogmas. In religious experiences too "man meets himself", or rather, he meets the self. The distinction between appearance (the subjectively experienced psychic image or content) and an "objective" reality hidden behind it calls for deepened insight and heightened consciousness. A new dimension is added to the experience by reflecting upon what has been experienced. Very often, however, this is felt as a loss of its immediacy or as a diminution and actual devaluation of its content, especially when this content pertains to the sphere of religion. The differentiation between the hidden reality and its appearance in consciousness formed for Jung the essential epistemological foundation of his psychological thinking and his work. The relation of the psyche to religious reality does not depend only on the unconscious, the synonym for "God". Equally important is the fact that symbols of the self, the archetype representing the "essence of psychic wholeness", cannot be distinguished from God-symbols. The countless symbolizations of this totality of conscious and unconscious - Anthropos, creator, father. mother, child, light, Word, trinity, paternity, circle, and so on - are also old and venerable God-symbols, and when St Paul speaks of "Christ within me" (Gal. 2:20) God's son must be taken in this sense as a symbol of the self, the innermost core of the personality. Considering the indistinguishability of the concepts "God" and "unconscious" the accent falls on the unknowable operator in the background, on what the biologist calls the "abyss of mystery" and the physicist the "spiritual principle", In the case of the indistinguishability of symbols of the self and God-images the accent falls on the individual's relation to God. _______________________________________ MINORITY OPINION: Carl Gustav Jung: Enemy of the Church by Dr Pravin Thevathasan http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/churpsyc/cgjung.html The danger to the Church represented by Jungian thinking JUNG'S theories have penetrated more deeply inside the Catholic Church than those of any other therapist. There is an apparent mystical aura which surrounds his name as compared to the overt atheism of Freud or humanism of Carl Rogers. His friend, the Dominican father Victor White, wrote that assessing a person's dream sequence seemed like an interior religious pilgrimage. Jungian analysis superficially appears to resemble religious retreats, and religious retreats are often no more than exercises in Jungian therapy. Indeed, the Myers-Biggs Type Indicator - a Jungian based technique that helps one choose the type of prayer that fits one's personality - has been all the rage in retreat centres. Hawkstone Hall - a Catholic pastoral centre - offers "imaginative work inspired by CG Jung". It is one of many. Jung repeatedly stated that he was writing his own personal myth which cast him in a prophetic rather than a merely psychological role. His own brand of psychology thus becomes dogma and every aspect of religious belief is interpreted in its light. The following sections are intended to summarize his findings with regard to religion. JUNG ON RELIGION Jung claimed that he was interested in religion from a psychological perspective. Psychology "opens peoples' eyes to the real meaning of dogmas". For Jung religious experiences and ideas are found in the human psyche and not in the supernatural. He developed a particular interest in gnosticism and claimed that the Gnostics were great psychologists - the highest compliment possible. From 1920 onwards he became fascinated by the I Ching, the Chinese oracle book. While practising it he claimed that all sorts of remarkable phenomena occurred. He explained the "ghosts" he saw during seances as "exteriorizations" of archetypal images within his mind, originating in the collective unconscious of the human race. At the core of Jungian therapy lies the occult. He had an obsession with alchemy, the maternal darkness that compensates for Christianity's paternal light. To become whole, we need light and darkness made one. Jung claimed to have identified Three Stages of religious evolution. The first stage was the archaic age of Shamans. This was followed by the ancient civilization of prophets and priests. Then came the Christian heritage of mystics. At every stage of religious history all human beings share the inner divinity, the "numinous". Within the psyche, the divine and the self merge. It can be seen that for Jung, the archetypes of the collective unconscious are the true sources of the supernatural. He had absolutely no interest in objective truth. What matters for the individual is to create his own personal "myth" in order to gain wholeness. His own psychology developed from contact with his spirit-guide who he named Philemon. In 1916, Jung's house felt haunted, his daughters had seen ghosts and he saw a crowd of spirits bursting into the house. As the ghosts disappeared he went into a three day state of automatic writing, leading to the production of his work "The Seven Sermons". He was already far beyond the realms of psychology. JUNG ON THE TRINITY For Jung the doctrine of the Trinity is replete with psychological meaning. The Father symbolizes the psyche in its original undifferentiated wholeness. The Son represents the human psyche and the Holy spirit the state of self-critical submission to a higher reality. Not surprisingly Jung found similar Trinitarian ideas in the Babylonian, Egyptian and Greek mystical traditions. However, he believed in a quaternity, the fourth person being the principle of evil: without the opposition of Satan, who is one of God's sons, the Trinity would have remained a unity. In Jungian terms, without the opposition of the shadow (the "fourth" person) there would be no psychic development and no actualisation of the self. Jung perceived the dogma of the Assumption as the Church's attempt to create a quaternity without shadow, without evil, for the devil had been excluded. The Gnostic Jung, however, believed that the principle of evil had in fact been introduced into the Trinity by the material presence of the Mother of God. From a Gnostic perspective, Mary becomes a diabolical presence, the maternal darkness, within the Trinity. In his essay on Job, Jung contends that Yahweh desired the love of mankind but behaved like a thoughtless, irritable tyrant who is indifferent to human misery. Like Adam, who is mythically married to both Lilith, daughter of Satan, and to Eve, so is Yahweh married to Israel and to Sophia, who compensates for Yahweh's behaviour by showing human beings the Mercy of God. Her appearance in the visions of Ezekiel and Daniel leads to a fundamental change: God transforms Himself by becoming man. Yahweh has wronged the creatures who have outdone Him and only by becoming man can he atone for His injustice. THE CHRIST FIGURE Maintaining a tradition put forward by Gnostics, Jung believed that Christ is the symbolic representation of the most central archetype, the self. He may be compared to other Mythic Gods who die young and are born again. The sublime goodness of Christ means that from a psychological perspective, He lacks archetypal wholeness. Missing is the dark side of the psyche, the element of evil. Christ receives wholeness in the person of the Antichrist. The Incarnation leads to the Apocalypse and the unleashing of evil by an inexorable psychological law. Christ's death and Resurrection are full of psychic meaning, representing the human drama of following the hard road of individualism, allowing the ego to be put to death in order that the self - the Son of God - may become incarnate within. JUNG ON THE MASS In his essay on the Roman Mass, Jung wrote that the liturgy arose from the psychic process underlying other ancient pagan rituals. Transubstantiation occurs symbolically in the bread and wine but more authentically in the participant who is transformed, exalted and self-enhanced. The Mass is the outcome of a process that began in ancient times with gifted Shamans whose isolated experiences gradually became universalized with the progressive development of consciousness The Church teaches that Christ died in order to save us. For Jung, this is a misleading rationalisation for an otherwise inexplicable cruelty: the angry Yahweh of the Old Testament is full of guilt and in need of atonement. Jesus dies on Calvary to expiate the sins of God the Father. The masculine wine and feminine bread represents the androgynous nature of Christ, signifying the union of opposites within Him. What is sacrificed is nature, Man and God, all combined in the symbolic gift. In Jungian terms, the heart of the Mass lies in the rich, emotional experiences encountered by the participants. A man-centered liturgy enables the mystery of the Eucharist to transform the soul of empirical man into his totality. THE CONSEQUENCES OF JUNGIAN THERAPY It should come as no surprise to learn that Matthew Fox sees Jung along with Teilhard de Chardin and a select few others as founders of the New Age Movement. Barbara Hannah of the CG Jung institute writes that visualization is considered the most powerful tool in Jungian psychology for achieving direct contact with the unconscious. Father John Dourley, a professor of religious studies and a Jungian therapist has written that a religious myth should not be reduced to historical fact and that the Christian mysteries belong to the human psyche. Upholding Dourley's view that the Resurrection should be seen in Jungian symbolic terms is the Episcopalian minister, Wallace Clift, who sees a new age of consciousness brought about by a reinterpretation of the doctrine of the Holy Spirit. The Episcopalian theologians John Sanford and Morton Kelsey - both Jungian therapists - see religious practice as a healing inner-journey towards wholeness and meaning and dreams should be seen as sources of religious insight. Kelsey writes that witchcraft, sorcery and other forms of Shamanism are not evil in themselves but can be used for good. Clairvoyance, telepathy and other forms of ESP are manifestations of the power of God. In typical Jungian fashion, he concludes that spiritual reality is ultimately a construct of the human unconscious. Logically enough, the Jungian who goes to Confession would wish to accept himself as he is and to integrate the good and evil aspects of his personality. Acceptance replaces absolution". (ln this context, it is of interest to note the number of priests who have left the priesthood in order to marry and become psychotherapists). The homosexual who has the courage to "come out", for example, is welcoming and integrating the darker and 'opposite-sex side of the personality. There can be no moral condemnation when wholeness is achieved. CONCLUSION Wholeness for Jung means the union of good and evil. As the notion of good and evil are central to Jungian doctrine, he cannot be assessed purely as a psychologist. Throughout his life, Jung made a number of remarkable predictions which came true. A famous example occurred on 4.4.44 when he predicted the death of the doctor who was treating him. This followed a dream that he had of the doctor's "primal form". On the day of the prediction, the doctor took to his bed and did not leave it again. One wonders whether Jung's interest in the paranormal and his participation in seances had paid off in unexpected ways. In sum the teachings of Jung are wholly at variance with the Church. There is little scope for dialogue and none for a Christian-Jungian synthesis. References 1. David Wulff: Psychology of Religion (John Wiley and Sons). 2. David Hunt: The Seduction of Christianity (Harvest House Publications). 3. CG Jung: Collected Works (Princeton University Press). 4, Victor White: God and the Unconscious (Harvill Press). This article first appeared in the December 1998 edition of Christian Order. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7723. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Format for A.A. meetings -- history of its development From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2011 9:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I offer no proof but this chanting apparently came from treatment centers and halfway houses as a means to get the clients involved in the meetings instead of dozing off. One benefit for these mostly young people is it often aggravates those who have been around for a while. Holding hands for the closing prayer, whether it be the Lord's Prayer, the Third Step Prayer, the I am Responsible, or something else, has been around for a really long time according to OldTimers, going back at least to the 1950s. Here in Danville, "they" chant at different places in our liturgy than in Baton Rouge, so it doesn't seem to be a well-organized conspiracy. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7724. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Source of quote: profanity is not a sign of spiritual progress From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2011 3:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill wrote somewhere about the salty language in AA meetings, probably in a GV article but I can't find it. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7725. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung: real religious experience and happens to you in reality From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2011 8:05:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would be surprised to find members of aahistorylovers particularly interested in either technical discussion of synchronicity or controversies over Jung's possible danger to the [Roman] Catholic Church -- as a matter of fact I'm not sure of their relevance here. We know Rowland went to Jung in 1926, possibly in 1928, probably very briefly in 1931 (when he and Helen left the kids in France to go very briefly to Zurich ostensibly to see "family"), and perhaps at Peace Dale in 1936. We know Jung's letter to Bill (and Bill's two letters to Jung). Jung's similarities to and connection with William James may be of interest. In fact, the importance of Jung in AA history is only, so far as I know, in these connections. Yes, Jung and his views of the interrelationship of religion and science might be interesting to someone studying the interrelationship of religion ("spirituality" if you insist) and science in AA. But so far as I can tell (see my THIS STRANGE ILLNESS: ALCOHOLISM AND BILL W [Aldine 2004]) Bill took very little from Jung except through (Cebra's filtering of) Rowland's experience, representing Rowland's filtering of Jung -- and what they took was from Jung where he was most like James. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7726. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Format for A.A. meetings -- history of its development From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2011 3:31:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Yes, this chanting and hand-holding is cargo cult AA; no wonder our critics view us with scorn and pity. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7727. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Women in early AA From: Dirk . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2011 1:18:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Anyone heard of Dorothea M., a nurse from Chicago? I know she was a nursing student in the early 40s. She was in nursing school with my mom. Thanks, DD IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7730. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung: real religious experience and happens to you in reality From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2011 10:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can you tell me more about the possibility of Jung seeing Rowland Hazard in Peace Dale, Rhode Island, in 1936? Chris B. Raleigh, North Carolina - - - - From: J. Lobdell Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 We know Rowland went to Jung in 1926, possibly in 1928, probably very briefly in 1931 (when he and Helen left the kids in France to go very briefly to Zurich ostensibly to see "family"), and perhaps at Peace Dale in 1936. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7732. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung: real religious experience and happens to you in reality From: Lou M . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/8/2011 5:31:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Lou M. and Baileygc23 - - - - From: Lou M (unity at aaonline.org) I think it's far more likely that Jung was referring to what the Big Book quotes as "vital spiritual experiences" and as "phenomena" with "huge emotional displacements and rearrangements" (Alcoholics Anonymous, pg 27) rather than having religious (or spiritual) convictions or ordinary faith, etc. It's been over 25 years since I've read any Jung, but i doubt he knew enough about Bill's eccentricities to comment on them and was making broad statements about spirituality, not LSD or even Niacin. Lou M P.S. It is my understanding that Jung only replied to Bill's first letter and died before replying to his second. - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) I understand that there are scholars who believe that Jung's secretary probably wrote the reply to Bill W., particularly given the state of Jung's health at that time. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7737. . . . . . . . . . . . Emmet Fox, the Big Book, and Jung From: Craig Keith . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/8/2011 12:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In Emmet Fox's 1932 book "The Sermon on the Mount," he wrote at length about the need for "realization" "and not just a theoretical recognition" in the chapter on "Our Daily Bread" pages 164-167. Of course our 1939 Big Book has the same admonition on page 83: "The spiritual life is not a theory. We have to live it." Could this quote have been influenced by our early members' reading of Fox? And is it possible that Jung had read anything by Fox? Best to all, Craig IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7738. . . . . . . . . . . . Carl Jung on the Oxford Group From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/8/2011 11:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is less there than what meets the eye. "The group confessions of sects like the Oxford [Group] Movement are well known; also the cures at Lourdes, which would be unthinkable without an admiring public. Groups bring about not only astonishing cures but equally astonishing psychic changes and conversions precisely because suggestibility is heightened .... "But in view of the notorious tendencies of people to lean on others and cling to various -isms instead of finding security and independence in themselves, which is the prime requisite, there is danger that the individual will equate the group with father and mother and so remain just as dependent, insecure and infantile as before .... For what we are dealing with is only the passing and morally weakening effects of suggestion (that is why medical psychotherapists, with few exceptions, have long since abandoned the use of suggestion therapy). C. G. Jung, letter to Hans A. Illing, January 26, 1955 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7739. . . . . . . . . . . . Jung: drinking alcohol and the quest for spiritual values From: Bruce Kennedy . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2011 1:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is, in the Jung-Wilson letters, one point which is rarely discussed in AA, but may be one of the central ideas in the alcoholism problem. It is in the exchange which deals with a very common experience of many if not all alcoholics. In Bill's words in his second letter to Jung: "Your observation that drinking motivations often include that of quest for spiritual values caught our special interest. I am sure that, on reflection, thousands of our members could testify that this had been true for them, despite the fact that they often drank for oblivion, for grandiosity, and for other undesirable motives." (Pass It On, p. 385) This, I believe, was in response to Jungs's observation about Rowland's problem: "His craving for alcohol was the equivalent on a low level of the spiritual thirst of our being for wholeness." _________________________________________ Now I am a non-religious man. So I do not interpret Jung's views in a religious context. But I can see that, as a young person, and even through my 40 year drinking career, I was searching. Searching for purpose and meaning, searching for the "right" way to live, even while dissolving in an alcohol-induced moral and ethical decay. In talking to many other AAs about this subject, I have yet to find a single one, with substantial sobriety, who does not affirm that this was also true of them. "Spiritus contra spiritum." Pass It On pp 384 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7740. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung: real religious experience and happens to you in reality From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2011 2:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All: With regard to the recent discourse re: Dr. Jung and his beliefs/orientations, I sort of agree with J. Lobdell’s remarks, while on my other hand I support having entries on the AAHL network dealing with "collateral" issues. After all, this is the place for sensible conversations about many things concerning AA history including about what/who might have affected the origins of AA. It is wholesome for AAHL to reflect on all theoretical, and practical, aspects of alcoholism—including religion. But, for me, it is important to concentrate on the fact that AA became what it is, essentially because of Bill Wilson’s and Bob Smith’s personal interactions back in the 1930s. Of course there were many others who had a role...and there were many well ingrained beliefs among all those early founders...which influenced the BIG BOOK and which survived to date. To Bill’s credit, within his book premise, he emphasized simplicity, respect for individuality, and no binding or absolute rules. By 1934, when he and Ebby sat at the kitchen table at Clinton Street, Bill had acquired a many-faceted personality. He had very mixed emotions as a child when both of his parent physically deserted him around age 11 and he was then raised by his respected grandparent. He was very dissatisfied and very skeptical of the religious teachings in his small town. He had serious bouts with depression. He was greatly benefitted by his young adult mentor Mark Whalon who had an unusually liberal philosophy for that time and place in Vermont. He had slowly developed a sense of self-worth and social awareness through his teen-aged friendship with Rogers Burnham (brother of Lois who later became Bill’s wife). He had been semi-successful in high school and lost a dear friend when Berth Bamford died unexpectedly while being his classmate. He had persevered at a military college becoming a second lieutenant with a short experience in WW1. He married into the Burnham family where the liberal Swedenborgian religion was a way of life. He accomplished all the required classes to become a lawyer but never took the bar exam. He had became a severe alcoholic which contributed to many business and social failures. It is my view that Bill was persistent in questioning/inquiring about everything which might cause alcoholism because he very well knew that his difficulty in controlling his own drinking had not worked. He was concerned about his many friends who were alcoholics, including Rowland Hazard and Ebby Thacher. He was impressed with Ebby’s discussion about his own sobriety which Ebby attributed to "finding religion". Bill very soon, while during his own hospitalization, abandoned his prior agnosticism and reportedly yelled "If there be a God, let him reveal himself", which was followed by his "bright-flash" experience. This condensed review of history---as well as such things as the essence of William James’s, Variety of Religious Emergences. that there have been many "revelations" throughout history which had varying results—which can (and perhaps should) prompt we members within AAHL to remember that Bill’s teaching was that the only requirement to be a member of AA, is the desire to stop drinking. We can value the input from any member and discuss diverse thoughts openly, but sometimes with caution. Its good to study, and not condemn. Les C Colorado Springs, CO elsietwo@msn.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7741. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Source of quote: profanity is not a sign of spiritual progress From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2011 3:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 03:32 10/9/2011, Laurie Andrews wrote: "Bill wrote somewhere about the salty language in AA meetings, probably in a GV article but I can't find it." Laurie, you may be thinking of Bill Wilson's Guidelines for stories in Big Book, 2d Edition: "Since the audience for the book [Big Book] is likely to be newcomers, anything from the point of view of content or style that might offend or alienate those who are not familiar with the program should be carefully eliminated . . . Profanity, even when mild, rarely contributes as much as it detracts. It should be avoided." Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7742. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung: real religious experience and happens to you in reality From: aa061035 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2011 4:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A question was asked and a reply message was posted. I only provided two (2) URL links and two (2) paragraphs that referenced the term "religous reality". I did not post the entire RC article. I do not know how that happened (gremlins in the system?). I prefer just posting URL links to cite my sources. If someone is interested, then they can click on the link. That way clutter is kept to a minimum and there are no copyright issues. In the future, any messages that I post will end as such: --- End of Message (EOM) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7743. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung: real religious experience and happens to you in reality From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2011 9:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "caligari" wrote: > > (1) What was meant by Carl Jung's phrases "real religious experience" and "happens to you in reality" in his letter to Bill Wilson? > > (2) Ernie Kurtz states in his article "Bill W. takes LSD" that Bill reported some of his LSD experiences to Jung in his second letter to the psychiatrist. Where can one find a complete copy of Bill's second letter to Jung dated March 20th 1961? ============================================= I believe that Jung was well aware of two things about Rowland. First, that Rowland had an Oxford Group-style conversion experience while at a low point in 1928. Rowland was convinced that the transformation was real and that his life was forever changed, but then resumed drinking without going to a single OG meeting. Rowland's cousin had a long visit with Jung while still angry at Rowland over that episode, so I think it is safe to assume that Jung heard the whole story. Even after Rowland's active OG involvement began circa 1933, he was sober for 2 years or more, but eventually drank again. I suspect Jung knew this but was assuming that Bill was right about Rowland's ultimate victory over alcohol. That may be the reason Jung stressed that religious experience has to be something that "happens to you in reality." I don't think anyone has published a complete copy of the second letter Bill wrote to Jung. One of the Bill W. books (sorry, I cannot remember which one, but I'm thinking Raphael or Hartigan) actually says the second letter wasn't even mailed. One intriguing detail: when Michael Fordham visited Jung for the last time, a few weeks before Jung's death, he found poor Jung in an agitated state of mind. Jung said that he had always been misunderstood (a common concern he had in his final years) and then went on at some length about the foolishness of trying to induce spiritual insight with LSD. Fordham could not get him off the topic, and finally had to leave without really having the chance for a conversation. I hope it is true that Bill's letter was either never sent, or never read by Jung, because if it was it could have been the cause of Jung's distress. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7744. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung: real religious experience and happens to you in reality From: Norm The Tinman . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2011 5:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm re-reading "Not God" again and there's some interesting info about Jung and drugs I hadn't remembered from before -- I find it good food for thought, when I think about LSD and spiritual experiences, for both him and Bill. --Norm IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7745. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung: drinking alcohol and the quest for spiritual values From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2011 6:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jung had different ideas than what is passed around in and about AA. Here is what his thoughts were on spiritual sensation. "Jung expressed this ambivalence toward the Group in a talk about the relationship of religion to mental health around 1941" "A hysterical alcoholic was cured by this Group movement, and they used him as a sort of model and sent him all round Europe, where he confessed so nicely and said that he had done wrong and how he had got cured through the Group movement. And when he had repeated his story twenty, or it may have been fifty, times, he got sick of it and took to drink again. The spiritual sensation had simply faded away. Now what are they going to do with him? They say, now he is pathological, he must go to a doctor. See, in the first stage he has been cured by Jesus, in the second by a doctor! I should and did refuse such a case. I sent the man back to these people and said, 'If you believe that Jesus has cured this man, he will do it a second time. And if he can't do it, you don't suppose that I can do it better than Jesus?' But that is just exactly what they do expect; when a man is pathological, Jesus won't help him but the doctor will." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Group#cite_note-Carl_Jung_p._272-70) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7746. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung: real religious experience and happens to you in reality From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2011 6:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn, Jared, Group. . . I know I have already replied to two posts on this thread and realize I am pushing it, but I just have to comment on the idea that Jung's secretary may have composed the letter. I'm afraid that, once again, I have pitched an idea into cyberspace only to find out later that it was half-baked. I will absolutely zip my lip after this comment. My source for the fact/speculation that there was "no way to know which of the letters signed by Jung late in his life were composed by him," Jung biographer Ronald Hayman, over-interpreted something Jung's secretary said in an interview. The interview can only be read by people who are willing to go to the library where the original transcript is kept, the Countway library in Boston. Reproduction of that material is not permitted, so checking little things like this one is not easy. I was, of course the one who read Hayman's claim and had the idea that it could explain Jung's apparent agreement with Bill's story which did not, in other ways, correspond very well with what happened. I've since read the secretary's interview, and Hayman exaggerated what she said. Jung probably just didn't want to waste time on specifics from the past. ______________________________________________ > From: Baileygc23@... (Baileygc23 at aol.com) > > I understand that there are scholars who believe that Jung's secretary probably wrote the reply to Bill W., particularly given the state of Jung's health at that time. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7748. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung: real religious experience and happens to you in reality From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2011 1:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the papers of Leonard Bacon, Rowland's cousin, there is a 1937 letter from Dr. Jung, including a belated thank-you to Leonard and his wife for their hospitality. The details are not given, but the implication is that Jung was at their house. Leonard was a Hazard on his mother's side and lived in one of the Hazard family mansions in Peacedale (or Peace Dale), Rhode Island. Correlating this with Jung's known whereabouts, the only plausible time for such a visit would have been early September, 1936. Jung arrived in New York on August 30 for a lecture tour, and no information seems to be available concerning his itinerary prior to his first official engagement, in Providence RI beginning September 12. Peacedale is about 30 miles from Providence. Rowland was discharged from Doctor's Hospital in NYC near the end of August 1936, after almost a month of treatment for a prolonged binge. The only residence Rowland owned at that time was in Narragansett, a few miles from Peacedale. So it certainly seems plausible that Rowland would have shown up at his cousin's house or met up with Jung in some way, although nothing is certain. - - - - "Chris Budnick" wrote: > > Can you tell me more about the possibility of Jung seeing Rowland Hazard in Peace Dale, Rhode Island, in 1936? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7749. . . . . . . . . . . . 1944 ALCOHOLIC FOUNDATION letter to Clarence Snyder From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2011 12:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I much enjoyed reading this 1944 ALCOHOLIC FOUNDATION letter to Clarence Snyder. What an abundance of historical AA information can be gleaned from these five pages! Personally, I have printed this letter for archives display and research. -- Bob S. http://www.soulesolutions.net/7july44sidenotes.pdf IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7750. . . . . . . . . . . . The year Philadelphia started From: Michael Gwirtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2011 9:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The year Philadelphia started: Digital Delivery Markings Fall 2011 -- notice 1939 as the year Philadelphia started. The date was feb 28 1940 until I looked at a calendar for 1940 and found out it was a leap year. AA correctly started Feb 29, 1940 in Philadelphia. We were off by a day and corrected it. AA Archives is off by a year. We have changed the date here to Feb 29 1940. It is on the post card Jimmy sent Clarence. GSO says Dr bobs last drink was 1 week before the AMA convention yet we know he came home drunk after the convention was over. Will New York and their official books and papers correct the date or continue to tell a lie? What makes official the truth? Shakey Mike Gwirtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7753. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung: real religious experience and happens to you in reality From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2011 6:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII thank you for clearing the matter up -- doubtless, as you say, gremlins > A question was asked and a reply message was posted. > > I only provided two (2) URL links and two (2) paragraphs that referenced the term "religous reality". > > I did not post the entire RC article. I do not know how that happened (gremlins in the system?). I prefer just posting URL links to cite my sources. If someone is interested, then they can click on the link. That way clutter is kept to a minimum and there are no copyright issues. > > In the future, any messages that I post will end as such: > > --- > End of Message (EOM) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7754. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Carl Jung on the Oxford Group From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2011 7:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Or perhaps, to put it another way, the cure for dipsomania is religiomania? > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > From: Baileygc23@aol.com > Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 23:28:00 -0400 > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Carl Jung on the Oxford Group > > There is less there than what meets the eye. > > "The group confessions of sects like the Oxford > [Group] Movement are well known; also the cures > at Lourdes, which would be unthinkable without > an admiring public. Groups bring about not only > astonishing cures but equally astonishing > psychic changes and conversions precisely because > suggestibility is heightened .... > > "But in view of the notorious tendencies of > people to lean on others and cling to various > -isms instead of finding security and > independence in themselves, which is the prime > requisite, there is danger that the individual > will equate the group with father and mother > and so remain just as dependent, insecure and > infantile as before .... > > For what we are dealing with is only the passing > and morally weakening effects of suggestion > (that is why medical psychotherapists, with > few exceptions, have long since abandoned the > use of suggestion therapy). > > C. G. Jung, letter to Hans A. Illing, > January 26, 1955 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7761. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung: real religious experience and happens to you in reality From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2011 9:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Cora Finch spoke of this on Saturday past when she gave a talk at the history gathering in PA. I took some notes: 1926, 1931 and 1936 were the likely years of Jung meeting with Rowland. At the meeting in 1936 (thought to be in Peacedale because Jung was there) it is possible that Jung recused himself from further treatment of Rowland as noted in the title "The Symbolic Life" and quoted below. No one can say for sure but how likely is it that Jung was seeing another Oxford Grouper who might fit this description as well as Rowland does. My belief....by a preponderance of the evidence that this was Rowland. "My attitude to these matters is that, as long as a patient is really a member of a church, he ought to be serious. He ought to be really and sincerely a member of that church, and he should not go to a doctor to get his conflicts settled when he believes that he should do it with God. For instance, when a member of the Oxford Group comes to me in order to get treatment, I say, "You are in the Oxford Group; so long as you are there, you settle your affair with the Oxford Group. I can't do it better than Jesus." "I will tell you a story of such a case. A hysterical alcoholic was cured by this Group movement, and they used him as a sort of model and sent him all round Europe, where he confessed so nicely and said that he had done wrong and how he had got cured through the Group movement. And when he had repeated his story twenty, or it may have been fifty, times, he got sick of it and took to drink again. The spiritual sensation had simply faded away. Now what are they going to do with him? They say, now he is pathological, he must go to a doctor. See, in the first stage he has been cured by Jesus, in the second by a doctor! I should and did refuse such a case. I sent the man back to these people and said, "If you believe that Jesus has cured this man, he will do it a second time. And if he can't do it, you don't suppose that I can do it better than Jesus?" But that is just exactly what they do expect; when a man is pathological, Jesus won't help him but the doctor will." Carl Jung, The Symbolic Life, p. 272 A couple of more interesting pieces I picked up was that Rowland had a spiritual experience while in Africa in 1929 (I think I have the year right) while reading Begbie's book "The LIfe Changers" also know as More Twice Born Men, which was the story of Frank Buchman and the Oxford Groupers written in 1923. This is a powerful book which followed up Bebie's first book "Twice Born Men." Both books should be read by any serious AA historian. Another tidbit was that Rowland and Shep Cornell were distant cousins. Best Regards, John B IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7762. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung: real religious experience and happens to you in reality From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2011 9:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I just learned of Jung's visit to Peace Dale from Cora at our 7th History & Archives Gathering at Elizabethtown (PA) this past Saturday. That he was there is certain. His contact with Rowland on that visit is highly probable, I gather, though not certain. She will be able to give you the documentation. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7763. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung: real religious experience and happens to you in reality From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2011 9:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would agree with Jared that Jung seemed to take his original thoughts on this subject from what he learned with James. Excerpts below from "The Men Who Came to Believe" Both men also seem to be saying that the feeling seems to require "a length of time" in order to be validated (walking down a particular path - Jung, i.e. a spiritual journey, Bill Wilson - The Educational Variety). The feeling from a "chemical experience" whether brief or repeated, will not likely stand the test of time or "the dry criticisms of the sober hour." But James knew that the experience was not valid if it was the result of chemical ingestion. What immediately feels most "good" is not always most "true," when measured by the verdict of the rest of experience. The difference between Philip drunk and Philip sober is the classic instance in corroboration. If merely "feeling good" could decide, drunkenness would be the supremely valid human experience. But its revelations, however acutely satisfying at the moment, are inserted into an environment which refuses to bear them out for any length of time. The Varieties of Religious Experience, p. 18 ________________________________ From: J. Lobdell To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 9, 2011 8:05 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Jung: real religious experience and happens to you in reality I would be surprised to find members of aahistorylovers particularly interested in either technical discussion of synchronicity or controversies over Jung's possible danger to the [Roman] Catholic Church -- as a matter of fact I'm not sure of their relevance here. We know Rowland went to Jung in 1926, possibly in 1928, probably very briefly in 1931 (when he and Helen left the kids in France to go very briefly to Zurich ostensibly to see "family"), and perhaps at Peace Dale in 1936. We know Jung's letter to Bill (and Bill's two letters to Jung). Jung's similarities to and connection with William James may be of interest. In fact, the importance of Jung in AA history is only, so far as I know, in these connections. Yes, Jung and his views of the interrelationship of religion and science might be interesting to someone studying the interrelationship of religion ("spirituality" if you insist) and science in AA. But so far as I can tell (see my THIS STRANGE ILLNESS: ALCOHOLISM AND BILL W [Aldine 2004]) Bill took very little from Jung except through (Cebra's filtering of) Rowland's experience, representing Rowland's filtering of Jung -- and what they took was from Jung where he was most like James. The near presence of God's spirit ... may be experienced in its reality--indeed ONLY experienced. And the mark by which the spirit's existence and nearness are made irrefutably clear to those who have ever had the experience is the utterly incomparable FEELING OF HAPPINESS which is connected with the nearness, and which is therefore not only a possible and altogether proper feeling for us to haveâ¦is the best and most indispensable proof of God's reality.The Varieties of Religious Experience, pp. 67-68 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7764. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Women in early AA: the story of Lil From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2011 5:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dr Bob and the old timers say she was the first woman in AA. Could this be Flo? Somewhere it is mentioned that they helped themselves to DR Bob's pills. If my memory is right, the doc was playing cards at the time. - - - - In a message dated 10/8/2011 10:53:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, wdywdsn@sbcglobal.net writes: Regarding early women: While she did not remain sober, we would be remiss, when speaking of women pioneers; not to mention the story of Lil (and of course her counterpart Victor [the former Mayor]) who developed the "thirteenth step" in Dr. Bob's office while he was upstairs at the City Club at his Monday night bridge game and who, after a bungled suicide attempt, was later locked (my term) in a room in Dr. Bob's basement for two or three days until her family came to collect her. From pp. 97-98, DBGOT. According to Bill she was the first women they ever worked with, and she left Dr. Bob (for one) unsure as to the feasibility of the idea of working with women in the future. Apparently she later sobered or "straightened out" (according to Sue Smith Windows) without the help of AA. Best, Woody in Akron IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7765. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill Wilson and law school From: rpeternixon . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2011 6:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It is a VERY minor point, but Bill Wilson never completed his law school courses (although he was close). See Message #2953 from Bill Lash on 14 Dec 2005. Sorry for the nitpicking. Peter. - - - - In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, LES COLE wrote: > He accomplished all the required classes to become a lawyer but never took the bar exam. > > Les C > Colorado Springs, CO > elsietwo@... IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7766. . . . . . . . . . . . Frank Buchman and the Nazi movement From: Gary Neidhardt . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2011 7:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Tom: Frank Buchman invited Nazis Joachim Hossenfelder and Karl Fezer to England in late 1933 in Buchman's efforts to convert Hitler to Christianity. (p. 199) So Buchman was involved trying to influence Hitler before AA was formed. Frank Buchman was in Berlin during the Olympiad of 1936 "hoping to bring the gospel of Christ to Hitler and other Nazi leaders . . . . Later in August Buchman made his tragic remark: 'I thank heaven for a man like Adolf Hitler, who built a front line of defense against the anti-Christ of Communism.' It was a throwaway comment made in an interview with the New York World Telegram from his office in the Calvary Church on Park Avenue and Twenty First Street, and it did not reflect his wider thinking on the subject. Still, it illustrated how easily even the most serious Christians were initially taken in by Hitler's conservatively pseudo-Christian propaganda." (p. 290 from the Dietrich Bonhoeffer biography by Eric Metaxas copyright 2010) I had always heard that Buchman had made remarks about Hitler, but didn't know what the comment was until I read the Bonhoeffer biography. (Bonhoeffer also visited the Riverside Church around 1930 and listened to sermons of Dr. Harry Emerson Fosdick, though his impressions of Fosdick were not terribly flattering. Was interesting to encounter these historical figures in the Bonhoeffer biography that were around at the early days of A.A. in New York.) Thought that History Lovers might enjoy having this information. Gary Neidhardt Lilburn, Georgia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7767. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung: drinking alcohol and the quest for spiritual values From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2011 10:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If I interpret this correctly Jung is actually quite decisive on the course of action the group should take - no ambivalence on his part or the recommended course of action. "I should and did refuse such a case. I sent the man back to these people and said, "If you believe that Jesus has cured this man, he will do it a second time. And if he can't do it, you don't suppose that I can do it better than Jesus?" He does seem to chastise the group for their ambivalence and lack of faith. In everything I've read from Jung he never waivered on the fact that the "spiritual solution" was absolutely essential. God Bless - - - - --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Baileygc23@... wrote: > > Jung had different ideas than what is passed around in and about AA. > Here is what his thoughts were on spiritual sensation. > > "Jung expressed this ambivalence toward the Group in a talk about the relationship of religion to mental health around 1941" > > "A hysterical alcoholic was cured by this Group movement, and they used him as a sort of model and sent him all round Europe, where he confessed so nicely and said that he had done wrong and how he had got cured through the Group movement. And when he had repeated his story twenty, or it may have been fifty, times, he got sick of it and took to drink again. The spiritual sensation had simply faded away. Now what are they going to do with him? They say, now he is pathological, he must go to a doctor. See, in the first stage he has been cured by Jesus, in the second by a doctor! I should and did refuse such a case. I sent the man back to these people and said, 'If you believe that Jesus has cured this man, he will do it a second time. And if he can't do it, you don't suppose that I can do it better than Jesus?' But that is just exactly what they do expect; when a man is pathological, Jesus won't help him but the doctor will." > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Group#cite_note-Carl_Jung_p._272-70) > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7768. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1944 ALCOHOLIC FOUNDATION letter to Clarence Snyder From: Ben Hammond . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2011 11:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thanks for the Harrison letter to Clarence, July 7, 1944...Wonderful insight!! Are the handwritten margin comments Clarence ?? Please Reply and thanks for your service. Old Ben, Tulsa OK - - - - On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Robert Stonebraker < rstonebraker212@comcast.net> wrote: I much enjoyed reading this 1944 ALCOHOLIC FOUNDATION letter to Clarence Snyder. What an abundance of historical AA information can be gleaned from these five pages! Personally, I have printed this letter for archives display and research. -- Bob S. > http://www.soulesolutions.net/7july44sidenotes.pdf IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7769. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung: drinking alcohol and the quest for spiritual values From: aa061035 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2011 11:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I, too, read the Wikipedia article and was intrigued by the source citation found in "The Symbolic Life". Via an inter-library loan, I found the citation. It was from a seminar talk given on 5 April 1939. There was a lot more background information was left out of the Wikipedia article, but as Jung said, "I can't do it better than Jesus". Which I interpret to mean that if science/doctor can't, then religion/spirituality can. "Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity." --- End of Message (EOM) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7770. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung From: aa061035 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2011 11:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thanks for confirming my theory that the story in "Memories, Dreams, Reflections" happened in 1909. --- End of Message (EOM) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7771. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Source of quote: profanity is not a sign of spiritual progress From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2011 2:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII That's the ticket Tommy. You can also find the citation in the book "Experience, Strength and Hope" on page "Part One 3." Cheers Arthur - - - - From: Tom Hickcox Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 Laurie, you may be thinking of Bill Wilson's Guidelines for stories in Big Book, 2d Edition: "Since the audience for the book [Big Book] is likely to be newcomers, anything from the point of view of content or style that might offend or alienate those who are not familiar with the program should be carefully eliminated . . . Profanity, even when mild, rarely contributes as much as it detracts. It should be avoided." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7772. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Felicia G (When Stars Fall) From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2011 1:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Am reading Newspaper Titan "The Infamous Life and Monumental Times of Cissy Patterson" and Felicia was returned to her mother in 1909. _____ From: J. Lobdell Sent: 29 September 2011 Sally Brown had access to Felicia's diary (from 1952 I think) and of course Felicia had several articles in the Grapevine as the sources Glenn mentioned will tell you. She was I believe the original "poor little rich girl" -- I think it was President William Howard Taft who had to threaten Poland ca 1913 to get her back from her father who had kidnapped her. When I met her (she was an exact contemporary of my mother when they were growing up in DC -- when Felicia was in DC -- and used to come to meetings at our house in Ho-Ho-Kus, New Jersey, back around 1948-51 with Marty and [rarely] Priscilla), I remember my father telling me she was "Cissy Patterson's girl," and while my mother's other girlhood (women) friends were identified to me when I was introduced to them as Miss Alice or Miss Muriel (as with, by extension, her AA friends who were not immediately local), she was sometimes "the Countess Felicia" and sometimes Miss -- my father told me she was the Countess Felicia Magruder. I recall that she liked blue but dressed in a lighter blue than Marty -- also saw her occasionally at Chase's Washington Square Book Shop. I think it was because of the way Drew Pearson treated Felicia that my parents would never listen to him on the radio -- which went back before my mother got sober in 1947 and I believe before Felicia got sober in 1944[?] Doubtless some of this repeats information already on the history lovers -- but possibly the personal note will be of interest. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7773. . . . . . . . . . . . Looking for online copy of Bill W''s The Vitamin B 3 Therapy From: ewmichels77 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2011 12:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am looking for an online version of Bill W.'s pamphlet "The Vitamin B 3 Therapy." Does an online version of "The Vitamin B 3 Therapy" exist? - - - - Abram Hoffer writes: "I met Bill in New York in 1960. Humphry Osmond and I introduced him to the concept of megavitamin therapy. Bill was very curious about it and began to take niacin, 3,000 mg daily .... Bill then wrote "The Vitamin B 3 Therapy" and thousands of copies of this extraordinary pamphlet were distributed. Bill became unpopular with the members of the board of AA International. --From Vitamin B3: Niacin and Its Amide, by A. Hoffer, M.D., Ph.D.; Wilson B: The vitamin B3 therapy: The first communication to AA's physicians (1967); A second communication to AA's physicians (1968). http://orthomolecularvitamincentre.com/disorders.php IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7774. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Source of quote: profanity is not a sign of spiritual progress From: hdmozart . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2011 4:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Laurie Andrews, please don't give up your quest - I swear I have read/heard the same thing, but for the life of me can't find it either - From what I can remember it was more like you mentioned in another post, "Let us remember though that Bill also wrote somewhere else that visitors to an AA meeting might be surprised by the salty language that sometimes occurred." I went through all my Conference-approved pamphlets - I have a digital grapevine subscription and found twelve articles that used 'salty' - none were pertinent - I have digital copies of the BB, Dr. Bob and Good Oldtimers and As Bill Sees It - it's in none of those - I was aware of the ES&H piece, that has been discussed in AAHL before - Pass It On, Came to Believe and AA Comes of Age are other possibilities of maybe from a talk? I'm still waiting for a reply from GSO Archives (a month ago) - after I resolve that question, I was going to ask about this one - Larry IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7775. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Felicia G (When Stars Fall) From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/12/2011 1:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 1909 certainly makes better sense of my mother's knowing her at school than 1913 -- but under Taft in any case > From: fionadodd@eircom.net > Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 > > Am reading Newspaper Titan "The Infamous Life and Monumental Times of Cissy Patterson" and Felicia was returned to her mother in 1909. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7776. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First Roman Catholics in Alcoholics Anonymous From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/12/2011 2:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Fiona and the lads on carrying the message to the Irish: Twelve step calls in the immigrant bars of Cleveland bring large numbers of Catholics into AA for the first time in the Spring of 1939? Or something not right about that "received" story? - - - - From: Bill Schaberg (bill at athenararebooks.com) Wed, September 7, 2011 Doesn't it seem strange to you that the first Catholic joined in Ohio in April of '36, the second in New York in January of '39 and then in the next three months they had FOURTEEN successful converts from Cleveland? Sounds to me like there are some serious details missing in that story ... - - - - From: Glenn Chesnut (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) Fri, September 16, 2011 Why so many Catholics in Cleveland all of a sudden? Perhaps because Clarence Snyder was the first person to really reach out to them? [We are told that by April of 1939, "the majority" of the fourteen alcoholics in the Cleveland group were Roman Catholics, so let us say around eight to twelve of them.] - - - - From: Ernie Kurtz (kurtzern at umich.edu) Fri, September 16, 2011 Non-theologically, I know of no evidence that Clarence was Catholic and several reasons to think that he was not. According to his own story (played up for some New England Catholic audiences), he knew that most of the drunks in Cleveland were Catholic and suspected they had high principles -- interesting commentary on the Irish stereotype. Remember that Clarence started his 12th-Step work in bars, and on his telling, bars filled with Paddys. He was carrying the message to the Irish, not to Catholics. It just so happened, . . . . - - - - From: Bill Schaberg But it still seems strange and unlikely to me that the first Catholic joined in Ohio in April of '36, the second in New York in January of '39 and then in the next three months they had FOURTEEN successful converts from Cleveland. I guess that is possible (another "tipping point" perhaps?), but it seems much more likely that SOMETHING is just not right with that "received" story. Do Akron or Cleveland have the names and sobriety dates for those 14? - - - - From: Fiona Dodd Sun, September 18, 2011 You know lads it can't be that surprising that most of the Cleveland converts were Catholic and Oirish and from Mayo to boot and Achill Island in particular if you feel like delving further. They emigrated to work on the Erie canal and if you stand in the graveyard beside the deserted village at Dougort the head stones bear testament to this. Even Ignatia's emigration reflects this as her father came from near Achill and it would have influenced their decision to emigrate to a place where they knew others. People have a romantic notion of Ireland, cobbled streets, etc., but the reality is dirt tracks and an unyielding land. Stand in Attymass where Peyton the Rosary priest came from and look at the village deserted during the famine and then look at the village deserted during the hungry 40's and 50's. Look through the windows of these houses and see the delph still on the dresser, the sacred heart still on the wall, everything as these people left it and wonder why they never came back. The Irish Catholic church was hell fire and brimstone, they missed the loving God bit -- c'mon lads they even missed Vatican 2. - - - - From: Ernie Kurtz Mon, September 19, 2011 Thanks, Fiona. All: combine this with my earlier post on "why Catholics in Cleveland"; I wish I could remember more specifically, but Clarence named three bars where he cruised for prospects. And I know from my earlier research on Cleveland in the 1920s-1930s that immigrant groups such as the Irish (and the Poles, and the Slovenes, and . . . ) clustered in such public places as bars -- pubs. _____________________________________________ Original message #7609 from Glenn Chesnut (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) "The First Roman Catholics in Alcoholics Anonymous" Article available online at http://hindsfoot.org/aacaths.doc IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7790. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Frank Buchman and the Nazi movement From: David Buda . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/12/2011 9:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As the son of a holocaust survivor I am relieved to hear this about Frank Buchman. It always irked me... Thanks, David IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7791. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Carl Jung: many roads to recovery From: aa061035 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2011 11:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII > The "ambivalence" expressed by Jung in relating the story listed below (The Symbolic Life p.272) would seem more aimed at the lack of faith the group members have in their own methods and procedures rather than attitude on his part that religion couldn't do the job. I couldn't agree more and should have searched for this posting earlier. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7792. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Carl Jung on the Oxford Group From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2011 3:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Surprised Jung confused the Oxford Group with the earlier Oxford Movement; or was it just a slip of the pen? To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com From: Baileygc23@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 23:28:00 -0400 Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Carl Jung on the Oxford Group "The group confessions of sects like the Oxford [Group] Movement are well known; also the cures at Lourdes, which would be unthinkable without an admiring public. Groups bring about not only astonishing cures but equally astonishing psychic changes and conversions precisely because suggestibility is heightened .... IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7793. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung: drinking alcohol and the quest for spiritual values From: B . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2011 7:17:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I love this post. Indicates to me how vital it is not just to repeat your message over and over and over...turning it into some kind of folklore, maybe even from podiums all over the country, but to carry the message of hope, and of a spiritual solution to the individual alcoholic, and show him/her, one on one, the path. Nothing will so much ensure immunity from drinking as intensive work with other alcoholics.... --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Baileygc23@... wrote: > > Jung had different ideas than what is passed around in and about AA. > Here is what his thoughts were on spiritual sensation. > > "Jung expressed this ambivalence toward the Group in a talk about the relationship of religion to mental health around 1941" > > "A hysterical alcoholic was cured by this Group movement, and they used him as a sort of model and sent him all round Europe, where he confessed so nicely and said that he had done wrong and how he had got cured through the Group movement. And when he had repeated his story twenty, or it may have been fifty, times, he got sick of it and took to drink again. The spiritual sensation had simply faded away. Now what are they going to do with him? They say, now he is pathological, he must go to a doctor. See, in the first stage he has been cured by Jesus, in the second by a doctor! I should and did refuse such a case. I sent the man back to these people and said, 'If you believe that Jesus has cured this man, he will do it a second time. And if he can't do it, you don't suppose that I can do it better than Jesus?' But that is just exactly what they do expect; when a man is pathological, Jesus won't help him but the doctor will." > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Group#cite_note-Carl_Jung_p._272-70) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7794. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung: real religious experience and happens to you ... From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2011 12:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As to sudden so called feelings,I was born in the late stages of the pre-world-war-two era. It seems James put some emphasis on having this inner feeling of something greater than one's self. Bill W seems to have repeated the idea in his earlier experience in the English Cathedral, and later in Towns hospital. I do not think we put any special emphasis on ouija boards, but would do it when the others did it at home. We had to rough it without TV and computers. For entertainment at night, we had The Shadow, and The lone Ranger, and the shadow .knew what evil lurked in the hearts of man. As an old friend said about the people in the area where he became an adult, they are afraid to go out at night as they think haunts are out there. Being in the dimly lit city in the middle of the night, one could be afraid that an unseen person was about. I have not read any great amount of Jung, but he seems to have thought for himself. He even walked away from his mentor. Freud, and explained that they were still too new and close. We have seen two instances where he commented on the Oxford group, and it might seem to be an attack on the group and one might have seemed to be an attack on the Catholic Church. His comments on the church were minor and more on people's thinking than any comment on the church,and in a private letter. To stay sober one has to not drink when he doesn't have the answers or know the path. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7795. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Carl Jung on the Oxford Group From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2011 1:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The seeming cure may be religiomania, but after the church service it is time to stop off at the bar for a cool one. AA says, "It works". Like Jung said, if Jesus cannot cure them, the doctor cannot. When I got my six months chip an ex priest that had just picked up his nine months chip suggested I give my chip to an ex monk that had about three months sober. We have to the best of my knowledge over thirty years sober each. Since then, the ex priest and I had to live the ups and downs of life. Where the ex monk is I do not know. My experience is that not drinking seems to help one stay sober. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7796. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung: drinking alcohol and the quest for spiritual values From: aa061035 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2011 10:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A major edit has been submitted to remove wording not found in the source document, correct the date, and include the preceding paragraph: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Group#Carl_Jung_on_the_Oxford_Group IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7797. . . . . . . . . . . . Shakey Mike: the year Philadelphia started From: Mike Portz . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2011 7:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Fellow Members; Again and again I am amazed at some posts on this site who seem more interested in that persons personal opinion then what has been suggested by GSO New York. I thing it's great if you find an error in A.A. history to try to make our organizations "internal" history more factual. However I just don't see the point of debating it and trying to change it through egoistical post on this site. Of course this is only my meek opinion. Most of the time I don't have much of a clue of who is right or wrong. But is obvious to me that if a individual thinks he has made a discovery of error by GSO, the proper place to try to correct it is in a "reasonable" approach to our GSO archives department. In my conversations with them, they are very open and on the reasonable side about new information (or anything else), especially if someone has found something wrong. All you have to do is prove it with factual information. If they don't accept it, you might want to go through our A.A. chain of change your G.S.R., District, Area Assembly, Delegate, Conference. It takes quite a while, buy a vast majority of A.A. members think it works. A.A.'s "triangle" and most of it's literature speaks to Unity. It is included in Tradition 1. Granted my post is not really a historical post, but "Unity" has been a prime legacy of A.A. for many years. It becomes tiring and leads to frustration when people want to complain, whine and try to make accepted history through his site. I do not believe it to be the purpose of this site. I know enough about the Washingtonians to ascertain that lack of unity probably best sums up why that organization no longer exists. Please go through GSO archives if you want to change accepted A.A. History. I think accepted A.A. History is why most members participate on AAHL, not people's rants on what they believe to be the truth, sometimes for good reason, sometimes for ego!! And if the person making the claim winds up being wrong, well we just have another false rumor on A.A. history. Anyway, no one is always right. With intended respect, Mike Portz Cell (702) 501-9551 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7798. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung: real religious experience and happens to you in reality From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2011 8:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would agree with Jared that Jung seemed to take his original thoughts on this subject from what he learned with James. Excerpts below from "The Men Who Came to Believe" Both men also seem to be saying that the feeling seems to require "a length of time" in order to be validated (walking down a particular path - Jung, i.e. a spiritual journey, Bill Wilson - The Educational Variety). The feeling from a "chemical experience" whether brief or repeated, will not likely stand the test of time or "the dry criticisms of the sober hour." The near presence of God's spirit ... may be experienced in its reality -- indeed ONLY experienced. And the mark by which the spirit's existence and nearness are made irrefutably clear to those who have ever had the experience is the utterly incomparable FEELING OF HAPPINESS which is connected with the nearness, and which is therefore not only a possible and altogether proper feeling for us to have ... is the best and most indispensable proof of God's reality.The Varieties of Religious Experience, pp. 67-68 But James knew that the experience was not vaild if it was the result of chemical injestion. What immediately feels most "good" is not always most "true," when measured by the verdict of the rest of experience. The difference between Philip drunk and Philip sober is the classic instance in corroboration. If merely "feeling good" could decide, drunkenness would be the supremely valid human experience. But its revelations, however acutely satisfying at the moment, are inserted into an environment which refuses to bear them out for any length of time. The Varieties of Religious Experience, p. 18 From: J. Lobdell To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 9, 2011 8:05 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Jung: real religious experience and happens to you in reality I would be surprised to find members of aahistorylovers particularly interested in either technical discussion of synchronicity or controversies over Jung's possible danger to the [Roman] Catholic Church -- as a matter of fact I'm not sure of their relevance here. We know Rowland went to Jung in 1926, possibly in 1928, probably very briefly in 1931 (when he and Helen left the kids in France to go very briefly to Zurich ostensibly to see "family"), and perhaps at Peace Dale in 1936. We know Jung's letter to Bill (and Bill's two letters to Jung). Jung's similarities to and connection with William James may be of interest. In fact, the importance of Jung in AA history is only, so far as I know, in these connections. Yes, Jung and his views of the interrelationship of religion and science might be interesting to someone studying the interrelationship of religion ("spirituality" if you insist) and science in AA. But so far as I can tell (see my THIS STRANGE ILLNESS: ALCOHOLISM AND BILL W [Aldine 2004]) Bill took very little from Jung except through (Cebra's filtering of) Rowland's experience, representing Rowland's filtering of Jung -- and what they took was from Jung where he was most like James. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7799. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1944 ALCOHOLIC FOUNDATION letter to Clarence Snyder From: John Moore . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/12/2011 1:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A wonderful read Bob! Clarence vs the Foundation LOL We are so lucky that so much was settled long before we showed up. John http://www.soulesolutions.net/7july44sidenotes.pdf IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7800. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Source of quote: profanity is not a sign of spiritual progress From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2011 3:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII No, it was a comment he made about how people might be surprised at the "salty" language heard at some AA meetings. (I seem to recall he used the word "salty". Is it in "As Bill Sees It"?). The British Conference approved a guideline (No 17 - "Personal Conduct Matters" - April 2002) which recommended, inter alia: "Your group may wish to discuss and agree, at a group Conscience meeting, upon a clear statement to display, for example: "This Group does not tolerate bullying, harassment, discriminatory behaviour. PERSONAL CONDUCT MATTERS!"; and, "Bad language often offends ... but its absence never does." Which seems somewhat sanctimonious to me. I heard a man at a meeting say, "AA is not about bourgeois morality - it is about staying sober." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7801. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill Wilson and law school From: Sober186@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2011 7:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Not so minor. Another miracle. Had bill W. completed his law courses, he likely would not have been working on wall street, would not have been sent to akron for the failed hostile takeover, and would never have met Dr. Bob. Jim L. in Central Ohio - - - - In a message dated 10/11/2011 12:22:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rpeternixon@gmail.com writes: It is a VERY minor point, but Bill Wilson never completed his law school courses (although he was close). See Message #2953 from Bill Lash on 14 Dec 2005. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7802. . . . . . . . . . . . New documentary (Hanlon and Carracino) on how AA began From: L . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/27/2011 2:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Points blog also has a follow up from Dr. Kurtz, where he references a documentary (now filming) on the founding of AA. I hadn't seen anything about this before so I thought I would pass along the link: ________________________ http://www.ohio.com/news/movie-crew-shoots-scenes-at-stan-hywet-for-a-a-film -1.2\ 00159 [28] Movie crew shoots scenes at Stan Hywet for A.A. film A.A. co-founder's story inspires filmmakers By Jim Carney Beacon Journal staff writer Bill Wilson and Dr. Robert Smith recently met again for the first time in Akron. The 1935 encounter of the two men, which led to the founding of Alcoholics Anonymous a month later, was re-created as New York actors filmed a scene for a movie to be titled Bill W. Filming was done at the Gate Lodge of Stan Hywet Hall & Gardens, where Henrietta Seiberling, daughter-in-law of Goodyear co-founder F.A. Seiberling, had set up the meeting between the Akron physician known as Dr. Bob and New York stockbroker Wilson, who was in Akron on a business trip. Kevin Hanlon and Dan Carracino, the two men making the movie, have known each other since they were classmates at LaSalle Military Academy in New York. They had vowed that someday they would make a movie together, even though they had no film-making experience before this project. In 2003, the two decided to make a full-length documentary about the life of Wilson, who died in 1971 at the age of 75. Hanlon, the movie's director, is a New York City resident who worked as a project manager and consultant. He said Wilson's life captured his imagination. ''First and foremost, it's a fascinating story,'' he said. Wilson, a Vermont native, was trying to stay sober during his business trip to Akron on Mother's Day weekend in 1935. Henrietta Seiberling, who was involved in a spiritual organization called the Oxford Group, arranged a meeting between Wilson and Smith in a small study in the Gate Lodge at Stan Hywet on Mother's Day. Smith was still drinking at the time. The meeting, which he vowed would go no longer than 15 minutes, lasted more than five hours. About a month later, on June 10, 1935, Alcoholics Anonymous was founded in Akron. The group now has more than 2.1 million members worldwide. At the meeting, Wilson told Smith the story of his alcoholism and his drinking life. Then Smith told Wilson his story. Carracino, the film's producer, lives in Laguna Beach, Calif., and has worked in the electronics business. When Hanlon suggested making a documentary about Wilson, the first thing Carracino wondered was, ''This has never been done?'' Researching the subject, he found there are no full-length documentaries about Wilson. Then he realized why. ''They are anonymous,'' he said, referring to a basic tenet of A.A. Hanlon and Carracino found old film footage and photographs of early A.A. history, but it was sound recordings they found that really helped their research. ''As poor as A.A. is in visual history, it is incredibly rich in audio history,'' Carracino said. The two men have listened to hundreds of hours of recorded talks given by Wilson and other A.A. members. The film will use the voice of Wilson to help tell his story, Carracino said. He said he and Hanlon were moved emotionally when they walked into the Gate Lodge room where the A.A. founders first met. ''This is where it happened,'' he said. Hanlon said he is intrigued by the mystery of the meeting and what came of the hours of talking. ''You had one man [Wilson] who knew if he didn't speak to someone else he was going to drink, and another man [Smith] who was in a desperate condition because he couldn't stop drinking,'' Hanlon said. ''There is no way on earth those two men could have possibly known the consequence of this conversation the day it happened.'' Actors from New York City playing the roles of Wilson, Smith and Smith's wife, Anne, were flown in for the filming. Hanlon said the film, which is being made by their company, Page 124 Productions â” a name that refers to a page in the A.A. Big Book â” will be finished this spring. It is not known how the movie will be released, but Hanlon and Carracino will pitch it to various film festivals this year. The film is expected to be screened in Akron later this year, Hanlon said. _____________________________________________ From Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) Kevin Hanlon and Dan Carracino interviewed me and Amy Colwell Bluhm on camera in Chicago a couple of years ago, about the Oxford Group in my case, and about Rowland Hazard's psychoanalysis with Carl Jung in Amy's case. I was really impressed with how much both men knew about AA history, the insightfulness of their questions, the thoroughness with which they were carrying out the project, and the professionalism of their camera work (they were using cameramen from the big national TV networks). Their film looks like its going to be a really outstanding piece of work, not only visually, but also in terms of its intellectual content. (It was Dr. Bluhm who simultaneously with Cora Finch discovered the May 15, 1926 letter from Rowland Hazard showing that his extensive psychoanalysis with Carl Jung took place in 1926, not 1931. Message #7436 from Bill Lash gives the text of Bluhm's journal article http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7436 ) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7803. . . . . . . . . . . . Roger C. writing a history of Agnostic AA From: Omyword . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/28/2011 11:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Roger C of Toronto is compiling a history of AA Agnostics. Going back to Jim B who is the notorious "Ed" as described by Bill W when talking about AA inclusivity in the 12 and 12, these are people who have gotten sober in AA without any "as we understand Him" in their world-view. This is what Roger has come up with so far: http://aatorontoagnostics.org/2011/09/27/a-history-of-agnostic-groups-in-aa/ #com\ ment-64 [29] He is seeking others who have facts, anecdotes or helpful input. If you are an AA sober nonbeliever or you know one, please pass this link along and feel free to contact Roger if you have more to add: (aatorontoagnostics at gmail.com) Yours in service, Joe C "Omyword" (omyword at yahoo.com) _________________________________________ Also see the earlier message in the AAHistoryLovers: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7413 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7804. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why don''t you choose your own concept of God? From: Dov . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2011 3:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII John Barton concluded that Ebby never suggested that Bill choose his own conception of God. As Bill White put it in his "Confessions of an AA History Buff" http://www.facesandvoicesofrecovery.org/pdf/White/Confession_of_an_AA_Histor y_Bu\ ff.pdf [30] nothing is sacred in AA History. Taking that theme further I am beginning to wonder whether the entire concept of a God of your understanding as presented in Bill's story is anything more than an idealized anachronistic retelling of early AA as a more palatable Big Book introduction of AA to the newcomer. Two pieces from Bill's later writings taken together seem to suggest not only that Ebby never encouraged Bill to choose a God of his understanding but that the whole concept of a "God of your understanding" had not been in any way a shared belief in pre-Big Book AA and was only introduced to AA as a whole by the Big Book. In a 1940 letter in "As Bill Sees It" page 114, Bill clearly identifies Jesus as the God of his understanding: ""At first, the remedy for my personal difficulties seemed so obvious that I could not imagine any alcoholic turning the proposition down were it properly presented to him. Believing so firmly that Christ can do anything, I had the unconscious conceit to suppose that He would do everything through me - right then and in the manner I chose. After six long months, I had to admit that not a soul had surely laid hold of the Master - not excepting myself. "This brought me to the good healthy realization that there were plenty of situations left in the world over which I had no personal power - that if I was so ready to admit that to be the case with alcohol, so I must make the same admission with respect to much else. I would have to be still and know that He, not I, was God." LETTER, 1940" In a 1961 Grapevine article Bill wrote, also in ABSI page 146: "In A.A.'s first years, I all but ruined the whole undertaking with this sort of unconscious arrogance. God as I understood Him had to be for everybody. Sometimes my aggression was subtle and sometimes it was crude. But either way it was damaging - perhaps fatally so - to numbers of nonbelievers". If the "God of your understanding" were an early AA belief, why would Bill have been insisting on "God of his understanding"? This question is especially striking if Bill's own spiritual experience inspired by Ebby was with a God of his own understanding. Another thread http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7585 discussed early AA references to Jesus, all of which were specific to Dr Bob, Ann and Mid-West early AA and that thread makes no mention of the above pieces of Bill's own writing relevant to the subject. How intriguing if in reality Clarence's claims about 1930s early AA considered on that thread would trun out to be a simple, straight, unvarnished factual description of early AA exactly as it was and "mainstream" AA's description of that early period no more than an idealized mythical retelling more palatable to the newcomer but non-factual in its description of AA's pre-Big Book history. There are doubtless some who would be sorely tempted to use this as fodder for discussion of what AA "should be" today, and perhaps many others who might therefore consider this topic too controversial. My own personal take on this is that strictly on a logical basis, it is nothing of the sort. Model T cars and their construction have no bearing on what the automobile "should be" today. Early AA was just that - early AA. Those who feel it is better are probably far more motivated by the similarity between the beliefs of early AA and their own beliefs than by the fact that it was early, "original" and "authentic" AA. If current AA were more in their own image, I suspect that those very same who today refer to "original" and more "authentic" AA would very likely, instead, be extolling the value of current "advanced" and "superior" AA as opposed to early, more "primitive" and "outdated" AA. More importantly, I believe, this Group is dedicated to discussion of AA History and much as there may sometimes be risk of generating more heat than light - nevertheless substantive matters of AA history such as the historicity of the existence of the concept of "God of your understanding" in early AA cannot be ignored just for the sake of expediency. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, John Barton wrote: > > From John Barton and Jeff Bruce > > - - - - > > From: John Barton > (jax760 at yahoo.com) > > Fellow History Lovers, > > My intent is not to bring controversy, but I believe if we carefully review the facts on this question we will conclude that this event never occurred as described in Bill's Story. > > Below is the comparison between the original manuscript and the first printing, first edition big book of that portion of Bill's story that we are discussing. We can easily see that sometime prior to the publication of this first printing on April 10, 1939 but after the printing of the multilith manuscript in early1939 (produced for comments) that the following four paragraphs were added to Bill's Story: > > Despite the living example of my friend there remained in me the vestiges of my old prejudice. The word God still aroused a certain antipathy. When the thought was expressed that there might be a God personal to me this feeling was intensified. I didn't like the idea. I could go for such conceptions as Creative Intelligence, Universal Mind or Spirit of Nature but I resisted the thought of a Czar of the Heavens, however loving His sway might be. I have since talked with scores of men who felt the same way. > > My friend suggested what then seemed a novel idea. He said, "Why don't you choose your own conception of God?" > > That statement hit me hard. It melted the icy intellectual mountain in whose shadow I had lived and shivered many years. I stood in the sunlight at last. > > It was only a matter of being willing to believe in a power greater than myself. Nothing more was required of me to make my beginning. I saw that growth could start from that point. Upon a foundation of complete willingness I might build what I saw in my friend. Would I have it? Of course I would! > > I draw your attention to the use of italics in the second and fourth paragraphs. Bill and or the editors obviously wished to place emphasis on the importance of Ebby's advice as well as the far reaching conclusion he (Bill) reached as the result of his hearing and considering this proposal. In all of Bill's Story the only other occasion of adding emphasis is when he documents his profound reaction to Ebby's phone call and his having stopped drinking: "He was sober" > > The use of italics is obviously meant to indicate the absolute significance of these statements and events. They now become the central theme of Bill's story, the how and why, the coup de grace, the moral of the story, the punch line, the chorus, the crescendo. It would certainly be impossible to tell the story without them would it not? If these things, (icy mountains melting, finally standing in the sunlight i.e. "psychic change") had actually happened to you could you possibly re-tell your story without them? Of course not! > > It seems to me the whole point of telling the story would now be to reveal what Ebby said and its profound effect on Bill, initiating the process, (that was completed in Towns), the "psychic change" (I stood in the Sunlight at last). For my thinking, the reason these paragraphs are not contained in the earlier version of Bill's story is because it probably never happened as written. Had it truly occurred it would have to have been included in the earlier version (original manuscript). You wouldn't report the story without its most profound "truth"! > > Of course Ebby would have come carrying the non-denominational Christian message; (surrender to Jesus Christ) what other message did the Oxford Groupers carry? Lois may have provided us the answer for the "message change" in Lois Remembers p.113 > > In a AAHL post # 4409 Bill Schaberg talks about the four inserted paragraphs that appear written by hand in the printers copy. It seems there were no notations in the manuscript to indicate the source or reason for the revision. Dr. James Wainwright Howard from Montclair, New Jersey (see AAHL post # 6026) may have been the culprit. As you know he suggested dozens of edits to soften the book and make it more suggestive (let him choose his own concept could have been his suggestion). Or it may have been needed to support the change "God as you understand him" as made first to step three and then later again to step eleven. The "committee" (Hank, Bill, Fitz, Ruth, Herb and possibly others) may have thought this change to the story would tie up the "loose ends" into one neat, credible package. By the way, in the tape recordings I have heard of Bill telling "the bed time story" I don't recall him ever saying that Ebby said to him "Why don't you choose your own concept. of God" That's not to say such doesn't exist but this merits a further look. Although Bill wrote it (or approved its inclusion if written by Hank or Ruth) for the big book he may have had trouble repeating that which wasn't true when telling his story. Quite "revealing" in Bill's autobiography (Bill W. My First Forty Years) there is no mention of it. I also seen to remember Mel B. saying Ebby could never recall the conversation in Bill's Kitchen other then they argued a bit over religion. > > God Bless, > John Barton > > P.S. I remember feeling a bit down when this first came to light in my mind but recalled how many have been helped by this statement, so I am not concerned about its historical accuracy. I believe its inclusion in the story was Providence. > > - - - - > > From: Jeff Bruce > (aliasjb at gmail.com) > > Seems to me that I have read about earlier manifestations of choosing a God of your own understanding, but I don't remember where. Certainly it was not Oxford Group orthodoxy. OG was distinctly Christian, and the preacher in New York where Bill attended (Sam Shoemaker) was an Anglican in good standing. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7805. . . . . . . . . . . . Clarence Snyder''s response to the Alcoholic Foundation. From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/13/2011 1:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AAHL Members, I have just received, from Bruce C., Clarence Snyder's July 21, 1944, response letter to Leonard V. Harrison, Chairman of the Alcoholic Foundation. Please click the link. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Indyfourthdimension/files/1944%20Letter%20From %20C\ larence%20Snyder.pdf [31] What fortunate timing! Would Carl Jung call this synchronicity? Bob S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7806. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Source of quote: profanity is not a sign of spiritual progress From: Mike . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/13/2011 10:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Mike heat_cool, Baileygc23@aol.com, and Tommy Hickcox - - - - From: "Mike" (heat_cool2004 at yahoo.com) In the April 1944 Central Bulletin in an article titled "Group Behavior", it says in part: "We believe that obscene or off-color stories as well as foul language are entirely out of place in our meetings which are opened and closed with a prayer. It is scarcely believable that such incidents are customary in any group and we feel sure that abuses will be corrected by the leaders of the offended and offending groups. Co-Founder Bill Wilson addressed the topic when contemplating new stories for the 2nd Edition of the Big Book, he said: "Since the audience for the book [Big Book] is likely to be newcomers, anything from the point of view of content or style that might offend or alienate those who are not familiar with the program should be carefully eliminated . . . Profanity, even when mild, rarely contributes as much as it detracts. It should be avoided." It's impossible to believe that he didn't feel the same about what's said in A.A. meetings. - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) I cringe when I see some old timer swear away with women and children around. It used to be that men expressed themselves in that way when they thought the pious weren't around, but refrained when in the presence of women and children in public. Now the language seems to be common among women and children in public. It may have always been that way, and I may just be getting old. - - - - From: Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) At 03:22 10/11/2011, Laurie Andrews wrote: "No, it was a comment he made about how people might be surprised at the 'salty' language heard at some AA meetings. (I seem to recall he used the word 'salty'. Is it in 'As Bill Sees It'? " No. Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7807. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Frank Buchman and the Nazi movement From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/13/2011 8:51:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Buchman seems to be looking at Hitler's movement as one which seemed to be restoring order to Germany, and not too much at his treatment of the Jews. Knowledge of his later even worse abuse of the Jews did not come to light for some more years after Buchman's statement. He also seems to have thought that the Oxford group principles could turn Hitler into a force for good. If we look at the dictators of Hitler's time, they all were well thought of by their followers. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7808. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung: real religious experience and happens to you ... From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/13/2011 12:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Baileygc23 had said: "I have not read any great amount of Jung, but he seems to have thought for himself." If you read both James and Jung you will find a great deal of overlap when it comes to their thoughts on illness/disease and spirituality. Surely James was influential in steering Jung as he developed his understanding of religion and psychology. The only radical remedy for dipsomania is religiomania (James) and spiritus contra spiritum (Jung) are virtually identical. Please read VRE and Jung's Psychology and Religion and then compare to better understand my point. Here is what Jung had said regarding James: * Letter July 23, 1949 (from Carl Jung to Virginia Payne): "Two personalities I met at the Clark Conference made a profound and lasting impression on me. One was Stanley Hall, the President, and the other was William James whom I met for the first time then. I spent two delightful evenings with James alone and I was tremendously impressed by the clearness of his mind and the complete absence of intellectual prejudices .... my discussions with William James were chiefly about this subject (parapsychology) and about the psychology of religious experience." http://www.des.emory.edu/mfp/jamesjung.html ________________________________ From: (Baileygc23 at aol.com) Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 As to sudden so called feelings,I was born in the late stages of the pre-world-war-two era. It seems James put some emphasis on having this inner feeling of something greater than one's self. Bill W seems to have repeated the idea in his earlier experience in the English Cathedral, and later in Towns hospital. I do not think we put any special emphasis on ouija boards, but would do it when the others did it at home. We had to rough it without TV and computers. For entertainment at night, we had The Shadow, and The lone Ranger, and the shadow .knew what evil lurked in the hearts of man. As an old friend said about the people in the area where he became an adult, they are afraid to go out at night as they think haunts are out there. Being in the dimly lit city in the middle of the night, one could be afraid that an unseen person was about. I have not read any great amount of Jung, but he seems to have thought for himself. He even walked away from his mentor. Freud, and explained that they were still too new and close. We have seen two instances where he commented on the Oxford group, and it might seem to be an attack on the group and one might have seemed to be an attack on the Catholic Church. His comments on the church were minor and more on people's thinking than any comment on the church,and in a private letter. To stay sober one has to not drink when he doesn't have the answers or know the path. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7809. . . . . . . . . . . . Five women in early AA: Lil, Florence, Sylvia, Mary, and Marty From: Kimball ROWE . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/13/2011 7:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I believe that Lil and Flo were two separate people. This is what I have on file: three first, a close second and a nearly first Lady Lil - 1st woman to seek A.A. help. She was involved in the first 13th step with with a man named 'Victor'. She later got sober outside A.A. (Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers 97-98,109,241) Florence Rankin - 1st woman to become sober in A.A. Her story "A Feminine Victory" was in the first edition. She relapsed and reportedly took her own life (can someone confirm the suicide?). Sylvia Kauffman - 1st woman to achieve permanent long term sobriety. DOS: Sep 13, 1939 Remained sober until her death on Oct 31, 1974 Mary C. - A close second. She was sober in early 1939 (before Marty showed up in April and before Sylvia showed up in September). Relapsed in 1944 and then stayed sober until her death in the 1990s Marty Mann - Nearly first. Showed up in April 1939. Relapsed. Became one of the first A.A. women achieve lasting sobriety DOS: Dec 25, 1940 Her story "Women Suffer Too" is in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th editions. Founded National Committee Education Alcoholism (NCEA) October 2 1944. Reportedly relapsed in 1960 (can someone confirm this?). However, she was clearly sober by 1970 when she became involved with the Comprehensive Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism Prevention, Treatment and Rehabilitation Act of 1970 (which allocated Federal dollars for the treatment of alcoholism, treatment centers sprang up everywhere) _____________________________________________ From: Baileygc23@aol.com Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 Subject: [Re: Women in early AA: the story of Lil Dr Bob and the old timers say [Lil] was the first woman in AA. Could this be Flo? Somewhere it is mentioned that they helped themselves to Dr. Bob's pills. If my memory is right, the doc was playing cards at the time. - - - - In a message dated 10/8/2011 10:53:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mailto:wdywdsn%40sbcglobal.net writes: Regarding early women: While she did not remain sober, we would be remiss, when speaking of women pioneers; not to mention the story of Lil (and of course her counterpart Victor [the former Mayor]) who developed the "thirteenth step" in Dr. Bob's office while he was upstairs at the City Club at his Monday night bridge game and who, after a bungled suicide attempt, was later locked (my term) in a room in Dr. Bob's basement for two or three days until her family came to collect her. From pp. 97-98, DBGOT. According to Bill she was the first women they ever worked with, and she left Dr. Bob (for one) unsure as to the feasibility of the idea of working with women in the future. Apparently she later sobered or "straightened out" (according to Sue Smith Windows) without the help of AA. Best, Woody in Akron IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7810. . . . . . . . . . . . Came to Believe printings From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/14/2011 7:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What was the last Came to Believe printing with a white background/black print? I believe the first with the white background was the third printing in 1977. I think it was around the tenth. Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7811. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Came to Believe printings From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2011 12:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII That is correct - - - - From: Tom Hickcox Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 What was the last Came to Believe printing with a white background/black print? I believe the first with the white background was the third printing in 1977. I think it was around the tenth. Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7812. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Ethel Macy...Five women in early AA: Lil, Florence, Sylvia, Mary, and Marty From: Robt Woodson . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/15/2011 7:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Again, speaking of "First" women, I don't think any discussion of early women would be complete without the inclusion of Ethel Macy. Always worthy of note; Ethel was the first of the Akron/Cleveland area women to sober...(see P.7 COA, where Bill describes her as the "longest sober lady of the Akron-Cleveland region" upon seeing her at the 1955 Convention in St. Louis). Her sobriety date is given as May 8th, 1941 in the "Biographies Of the Authors of the Big Book Stories" (p.30). That isn't 1939 by any means, but she was definitely the first lady to achieve permanent sobriety in the midwest, in Akron. She was the author of the story "From Farm to City" which appeared in the 2nd and 3rd Editions of the Big Book. (As the literature chairman from Area 54 NE Ohio I fought to try to keep her story in the 4th Edition throughout the time that it was being put together ... writing a letter to our delegate and forwarding a copy to the Literature Committee...to no avail.) According to the Big Book Authors biography Dr. Bob and Ann Smith spent at least one evening a week at Ethel and her husband Russ's house in Barberton. Russ passed away in 1944. Ethel herself died on April 9th, 1963. Very active, she also started what may have been the first Women's Group. There is a wonderful photograph of Ethel, taken, I believe, with Bill Wilson, in her trademark pillbox hat, that I have seen At Dr. Bob's, in the Akron AA Archives, at Stepping Stones (2nd floor), and also in the New York Archives. Mentioned in "Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timer's" (on p.223) she, along with Dr. Bob and others, had a regular seat in Akron's King School group. Thanks for your terrific work on this project, My best, Woody in Akron IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7813. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Clarence Snyder''s response to the Alcoholic Foundation From: Moderator AAHistoryLovers . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2011 12:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Unfortunately, you have to join the Indyfourthdimension Big Book Step Study Group in order to access the file referred to in Message 7805: Message #7805 from Robert Stonebraker said: I have just received, from Bruce C., Clarence Snyder's July 21, 1944, response letter to Leonard V. Harrison, Chairman of the Alcoholic Foundation. Please click the link. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Indyfourthdimension/files/1944%20Letter%20From %20C\ larence%20Snyder.pdf [31] So nonmembers of that group might possibly email Bob and ask him if he would email them back with the PDF file of Clarence Snyder's letter attached to his email: "Robert Stonebraker" (rstonebraker212 at comcast.net) Or perhaps Bob could post the PDF file on a site like Silkworth where there would be general public access, such as http://silkworth.net/ which says on its home page: "You, the visitor, are strongly encouraged to send in any Alcoholics Anonymous history you may have in your possession to add to silkworth.net so that silkworth.net will be one and/or become the most comprehensive, most informational source of Alcoholics Anonymous history on the World Wide Web - Any A.A. history. Keeping A.A.'s history alive on the web to the general public is very important if we are to survive through-out the years to come." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7814. . . . . . . . . . . . First black woman in AA From: Michael Oates . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2011 12:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A lady at my home group has been credited on the women's international webpage as the first black lady to achieve long term sobriety. Her name was Bertha Clymer. Is there any history on her? - - - - From Glenn Chesnut (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) What is Bertha's sobriety date? Jimmie Miller in South Bend, Indiana, who got sober in 1948, is believed by many to be the first black woman in AA. Jimmie was continuously sober from 1948 down to her death several years ago. http://hindsfoot.org/kfoc1.html http://hindsfoot.org/nblack1.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7815. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Clarence Snyder''s response to the Alcoholic Foundation From: Bryan S. Reid . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2011 1:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII HERE'S WHERE TO FIND IT: A copy of Clarence Snyder's July 21, 1944, letter to Leonard V. Harrison, Chairman of the Alcoholic Foundation can be found as the last item at the end of this web page: http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cleve1944.html Kind regards, Bryan IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7816. . . . . . . . . . . . AA speaker named Alabam Carruthers From: Bryan . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/15/2011 5:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I got of CD of this lady not too long ago (at Waco, Texas on May 4th 1990), which I have enjoyed enormously (she is/was a real character and clearly works/worked a good program). Does anyone know anything about her? Thank you. Kind regards, Bryan IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7817. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Clarence Snyder''s response to the Alcoholic Foundation From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2011 2:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thanks you for the great suggestion to submit a PDF file of the 1944 Alcoholic Foundation/Clarence S. correspondence to the Silkworth website. I have just done and am awaiting their response. -- Bob S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7818. . . . . . . . . . . . 1 Re: Format for A.A. meetings -- history of its development From: Sherry C. Hartsell . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2011 12:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Sherry Hartsell, john6528, John Moore, Ben Hammond, and Mike P. (mportz2000) =========== ORIGINAL QUESTION -- MESSAGE #7712 Benny P: I would like to know the history of the format to chairing a meeting. (1) Why we read the preamble, (2) pass the basket during the meeting (not before or after), (3) why we identify ourselves before we speak, (4) why we read the 12 traditions in part or whole, (5) why we read the promises at the meeting and so forth. (6) I know that How It Works started in California due to one man and the groups in California picked it up. =========== From: "Sherry C. Hartsell" (hartsell at etex.net) Tom, holding hands and hugging, were NOT commonly practiced where and when I came into AA in '67, I see no useful purpose in the practices and I AM known in my family as A HUGGER, just more selective today and aware that not everyone likes the practice. I will say that I am unabashedly OPPOSED to CHANTING as related to Prayer or reading of an opening IN AA Meetings. These practices are best left to the various Religions where they are common, accepted and expected----don't IMPOSE such upon me in an AA Meeting. Sherry C.H. - - - - From: John (john6528 at comcast.net) It seems to me that all that "extra" stuff comes from treatment pollution of aa. Gess - - - - From: John Moore (contact.johnmoore at gmail.com) There is a very long and accepted custom of hand-holding in AA, as well as doing what some critics call "chanting". Beginning at my first meeting in 1971 and at most meetings after that, those who wished, held hands and said the Lords Prayer. At the end we said "it works!" and in later years was added "if you work it". Once in a while I hear criticism of this and my answer is, I am free to say the prayer any way I choose and end it any way I choose. So stop calling it "chanting" and leave me the freedom to pray in my own way. For nearly 40 years I have done what was done before me and I am comfortable that this is not a sign that I have been programmed by a cult. There are very very very few critics of AA. What few we see often have undisclosed vested financial interests behind their criticism. Most who work in the field have nothing like pity or scorn for our fellowship. Like Dr Silkworth suggested, those who came to scoff, may remain to pray. John M Burlington Vermont US (P.S. Some time I guess in the 1980's I began to notice that when the Promises were read, where it asks, are these extravagant promises? some members were answering "we think not". This is also called "chanting" and I suppose it is. I got the impression that the practice may have come out of a treatment center, but who knows where these things start. I don't care for this and I don't do it, and suggest my sponsees not do it, but many AAs seem to like it and I guess I can show a little tolerance.) - - - - From: Ben Hammond (mlb9292 at gmail.com) I am 77 and really enjoy the "chants" at meetings. Seeing the smiles on the faces of new and old members puts a smile on my face. Speaking in unison while holding hands adds power to the spiritual bonds we develop in AA. The "chants" are a part of the "cement" we put into our "sand" to bond together in fellowship. We have a beginner's meeting every day, closing with the "Responsibility Statement", Lords Prayer and "Keep coming back, it works if you work it" This closing takes less than 60 seconds. Those who have not experienced the feeling thus developed should try "chanting" for a change. God Bless, Old Ben - - - - From: Mike P. (mportz2000 at yahoo.com) I would refer the AAHL members who asked the original questions to our A.A. Traditions 2 and 4. Through the last 7 years I have asked my Pacific Region representatives at GSO in NY, NY many questions as to what groups can or cannot do and if there are any regulations other then the Traditions that guide groups about how they conduct their groups affairs, meeting formats, content of subject matter in meetings, what can or cannot be read, quoted, stated, what is allowed and what is not allowed for groups to do in their meetings, business meetings, steering committee or any other committee meetings, etc., etc., add infinitum. I have learned to contact GSO about these type question, first by suggestion from our general manager of GSO when I visited in 2005 and then through experience that nobody (including myself) in any of the above-mentioned type of meetings I attend can usually agree on or a dang thing about what groups can, or cannot do. I've also found out that those questions is exactly one of the purposes our A.A. Traditions (especially numbers 2 and 4) are meant to do. In fact in my correspondences to GSO, for answers to the above-mentioned type of questions, the basis of GSO's answers regarding these same subjects are always the same, refer to Traditions #2 ("For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority -- a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern" and 4 ("Each group should be autonomous Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole. You've probably already figured out I don't have to write them to many questions about these subjects anymore A group can do anything for a meeting format, or how the group functions in or during their meetings that it damn well pleases do to, "except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.) I think Mr. Bill said something about autonomy when applied to groups such as "Every group has the right to be wrong." To me, same thing applies to members. As long as they don't disrupt or harm others. Some groups do not allow profanity in their meetings. Others do. I don't care. I don't care that much about the format, how it (the message) is presented or how someone speaks. I didn't come to A.A. for any of those things. It's the content of what is said and if it helps my alcoholism that matters to me. I'm a recovering alkie who just wants to stay sober, recovering, happy, joyous and free. It's the A.A. process and the God of my understanding that does that. I still haven't had a bad meeting. I think as long as I'm a "recovering alcoholic" instead of just a sober one, that will never change. I feel it will be near impossible to tell the difference between these 2 types of alcoholics of you are not "living" the program of recovery. Kind regards, Mike P. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7819. . . . . . . . . . . . 2 Re: Format for A.A. meetings -- history of its development From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2011 9:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The format for AA meetings in Akron, Ohio during the 1940s: THE AKRON MANUAL: A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous http://hindsfoot.org/AkrMan2.html (This edition was published sometime between 1942 and 1948**) MEETINGS A.A. of Akron gets many inquiries about how to conduct a meeting. Methods differ in many parts of the country. There are discussion groups, study groups, meetings where a leader takes up the entire time himself, etc. Here, briefly, is how meetings are conducted in the dozen or more Akron groups, a method that has been used since the founding of A.A.: The speaker can be selected from the local group, someone from another group or another city, or on occasion, a guest from the ranks of clergymen, doctors, the judiciary, or anyone who may be of help. In the case of such an outsider, he is generally introduced by the secretary or some other member. The leader opens the meeting with a prayer, or asks someone else to pray. The prayer can be original, or it can be taken from a prayer book, or from some publication such as The Upper Room. The topic is entirely up to the leader. He can tell of his drinking experiences, or what he has done to keep sober, or he can advance his own theories on A.A. His talk lasts from 20 to 40 minutes, at which time he asks for comment or testimony from the floor. Just before the meeting closes -- one hour in Akron -- the leader asks for announcements or reports (such as next week's leader, social affairs, new members to be called on, etc.). In closing the entire group stands and repeats the Lord's Prayer. It is courteous to give the speaker enough advance notice so that he may prepare his talk if he so desires. - - - - The physical set-up of groups varies in many cities. Those who are about to start new groups may be interested in the method used by Akron Group No. 1. It is merely a suggestion, however. When there are but very few members it is customary to hold the meetings in private homes of the members, on the same night of each week. When the group becomes larger, however, it is desirable to hold the meeting in a regular place. A school room, a room in a Y.M.C.A. or lodge, or hotel will do. It has been the experience throughout the country that the more fluid the structure of the group the more successful the operation. Akron Group No. 1 has a very simple set-up. There is a permanent secretary, who makes announcements, keeps a list of the membership, and takes care of correspondence. There is also a permanent treasurer, who takes care of the money and pays bills. Then there is a rotating committee of three members to take care of current affairs. Each member serves for three months, but a new one is added and one dropped every month. This committee takes care of providing leaders, supplying refreshments, arranging parties, greeting newcomers, etc. As the group grows older certain qualifications, in terms of length of sobriety, can be made. Akron Group No. 1 requires a full year of continuous sobriety as qualification to hold an office or serve. There are no dues. There is a free-will offering at each meeting to take care of expenses. There is probably an older group in some community within easy traveling distance of yours. Someone from that group will doubtless be happy to help you get started. THIS LAST PART OF THE AKRON MANUAL ALSO SAYS: It has been found advisable to hold meetings at least once a week at a specified time and place. Meetings provide a means for an exchange of ideas, the renewing of friendships, opportunity to review the work being carried on, a sense of security, and an additional reminder that we are alcoholics and must be continuously on the alert against the temptation to slip backward into the old drunken way of life. In larger communities where there are several groups it is recommended that the new member attend as many meetings as possible. He will find that the more he is exposed to A.A. the sooner he will absorb its principles, the easier it will become to remain sober, and the sooner problems will shrink and tend to disappear. As a newcomer you will be somewhat bewildered by your first meeting. It is even possible that it will not make sense to you. Many have this experience. But if you don't find yourself enjoying your first meeting, pause to remember that you probably didn't care for the taste of your first drink of whiskey -- particularly if it was in bootleg days. Again, you may feel like a "country cousin" at your first meeting. Your sponsor should see to it that this is not the case. But even if he neglects his duty, don't feel too badly. Don't be afraid to "horn in." If you are being neglected it is just an oversight, and you are entirely welcome. It is possible that you may not even be recognized because your appearance has changed for the better. In a week or two you will find yourself in the middle of things -- and very likely neglecting other newcomers. So attend your first meeting with an open mind. Even if you aren't impressed try it again. Before long you will genuinely enjoy attending and a little later you will feel that the week has been incomplete if you have not attended at least one A.A. meeting. Remember that attendance at meetings is one of the most important requisites of remaining sober. ======================================= **The edition of the Akron Manual quoted from above, taken from the Hindsfoot website, was published sometime between 1942 and 1948, see: Message #7516 The latest book on the Manual's reading list was E. Stanley Jones' Abundant Living, which was first published in 1942. The cover of the pamphlet talks about alcoholics in Akron with five, six and seven years of sobriety and on page 15 states that the Akron Group has been in existence for seven years. Dr. Bob and Bill Dotson both got sober in June 1935, which meant that they would have had seven years of sobriety in June of 1942. Likewise, the Akron Group would have been in existence for seven years in June 1942. Message #1935 and Message #7598 Mel Barger says "I was given this manual at my first meetings in the Ventura, Calif., area in October, 1948, and I definitely remember the list" of books which were recommended reading. ======================================= ORIGINAL QUESTION -- MESSAGE #7712 Benny P: I would like to know the history of the format to chairing a meeting. (1) Why we read the preamble, (2) pass the basket during the meeting (not before or after), (3) why we identify ourselves before we speak, (4) why we read the 12 traditions in part or whole, (5) why we read the promises at the meeting and so forth. (6) I know that How It Works started in California due to one man and the groups in California picked it up. What I want to know is when and how this started. Any info would be greatly appreciated. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7820. . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Re: Format for A.A. meetings -- history of its development From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2011 9:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Format for AA meetings in California as of 1954. The first section of "How It Works" was being read at the beginning of AA meetings in California from at least as early as 1948. - - - - Message #939 "A Letter to a Woman Alcoholic" by Margaret Lee Runbeck Good Housekeeping magazine, March 1954 Meetings follow a simple pattern. In California, for instance, an A.A. meeting would proceed in much this way: A chapter called "How It Works" is read from the Alcoholics Anonymous "textbook." A member volunteers to act as chairman to conduct the meeting. The chairman may begin by saying, "Good evening, friends. I am an alcoholic." After telling a little of his own history, he introduces speakers he has selected to tell about themselves. Each speaker, man or woman, tells what he was, what he is now, and how he made the trip between the two states of being. They tell their stories with complete frankness and often with much humour. An alcoholic attending for the first time id often shattered with relief at hearing the horrors, which all his life have been mentioned in self-righteous whispers, now being talked about in plain words and with laughter. Inhibitions and self-condemnation too painful to admit collapse like walls of wax under this quite simple therapy. When I ask A.A. how they can laugh and joke about their old sufferings, they say, "Well, you see, all that happened to my worst enemy. Not to me, certainly." It is the most wholesome kind of divorcement from the past that any therapy has ever achieved. The past was a series of hangovers; but when that past departs, it leaves neither hangover nor scar. At the end of the meeting there is a moment of silent prayer; then everyone rises and repeats the Lord's Prayer in unison. I defy anyone to take part in this and remain untouched. Then there is coffee and cake and an hour of friendly companionship. Many alcoholics have become bankrupt in their social live, and A.A. offers them comfortable and easy opportunity to make friends again and to "belong." - - - - Message #416 Jim Burwell -- then living in San Diego, California, -- wrote the following to Bill Wilson on January 16, 1948: "One of the things I do especially like out here in [California is] that they read the Fifth Chapter of the Book before the meetings. This seems to have more meaning to the new fellows than the reading of the Steps alone." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7821. . . . . . . . . . . . 4 Re: Format for A.A. meetings -- history of its development From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2011 10:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Holding hands during an AA prayer in fact came from those wild and crazy Canadians. It started at the AA International in Toronto in 1965, when Bill Wilson was still around. He presumably could have objected to that practice if he had seen anything wrong with it (he lived down to 1971). - - - - Message #6054 From: Glenn C., Moderator, AAHistoryLovers Holding hands during a prayer started at the AA International in Toronto in 1965, when Bill Wilson was still around (he died in 1971), and the practice seems to have been further popularized after it was done at the AA International in Denver in 1975. So fundamentally this practice of holding hands seems to have come straight from AA headquarters, from the New York GSO itself. The oldtimers who have written in, both in this message and in Message #6052, say that they never saw it done in ordinary local AA meetings until the early to mid 1970's, and that it only started to become a common practice over the course of the 1980's. - - - - From Jim Blair (jblair@videotron.ca) in Message #2247 (repeated in Message #6052) The question of holding hands I have looked into and it appears that at the International in Toronto in 1965, the attendees were asked to hold hands and join together as the "Responsibility Declaration" was read for the first time. Older members seen to recollect that "hand holding" grew out of the Toronto experience. - - - - From: "J. Lobdell" (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) I can't say where it originated but there is significant anecdotal evidence that it was brought back to many groups in many areas from the Denver International Convention (1975). - - - - From: "Robert Stonebraker" (rstonebraker212 at comcast.net) The founding group in Richmond, Indiana, began in 1946. They never held hands till the mid-1980s, although some of the other Richmond groups started doing so in the early 1980s. Bob S. - - - - From: "sherry c. hartsell" (hartsell at etex.net) From Gilmer, Texas (a small town in east Texas, pop. 4,799). He is 74 years old, and has been sober since since December 29, 1967. He tells us that "it was not a practice when I sobered up." - - - - From: "Ben Humphreys" (blhump272 at sctv.coop) I can remember when I first came to AA in the middle 70s we all sat at the table for the whole meeting. It was in the later 70s that we started holding hands and saying the Lord's Prayer .... I can still see (in my mind) some of the oldtimers standing with their arms folded in ... protest. - - - - Message #2250 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2250 "Bruce Lallier" (brucelallier at zoominternet.net) I first remember the holding of hands from the early to mid 70's in Connecticut. - - - - Message #2257 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2257 From "Robert Stonebraker" (rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) I was living in Southern California [in] 1975 and the custom of holding hands was then prevalent at most groups. However, in 1978, I moved to a mid-sized town, Richmond, Indiana, and the practice was not yet in vogue. But by the early 1980s most of the groups had begun holding hands. Of course, here I am not talking about the Responsibility Declaration, but the Lord's Prayer. - - - - Message #2589 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2589 From: "Mel Barger" (melb at accesstoledo.com) Mel Barger: I would say that [holding hands while reciting the Lord's Prayer] began in the mid to late 1970s and just seemed to spread throughout AA. But there are still some stalwarts who stand apart [when reciting the prayer] rather than hold hands, and this is their right. [Note from moderator: Mel's personal experience with the AA program goes back to 1948 or before, and he has also done a good deal of research on AA history going back even earlier, to the first beginnings of the movement.] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7822. . . . . . . . . . . . 5 Re: Format for A.A. meetings -- history of its development From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2011 10:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII THE USE IN A.A. OF THE LORD'S PRAYER and other "Christian" prayers - - - - Message #6052 From: "ArtSheehan" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:53pm Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer, Or Not - Part 1 of 2 A Letter From Bill Wilson About The Use Of The Lord's Prayer April 14, 1959 Dear Russ, Am right sorry for my delay in answering. Lois and I were a long time out of the country and this was followed by an attack of the marathon type of flu that has been around here in New York. We are okay now, however, but I did want to explain my delay. Now about the business of adding the Lord's Prayer to each A.A. meeting. This practice probably came from the Oxford Groups who were influential in the early days of AA. You have probably noted in AA Comes of Age what the connection of these people in AA really was. I think saying the Lord's Prayer was a custom of theirs following the close of each meeting. Therefore it quite easily got shifted into a general custom among us. Of course there will always be those who seem to be offended by the introduction of any prayer whatever into an ordinary AA gathering. Also, it is sometimes complained that the Lord's Prayer is a Christian document. Nevertheless this Prayer is of such widespread use and recognition that the arguments of its Christian origin seems to be a little farfetched. It is also true that most AAs believe in some kind of God and that communication and strength is obtainable through His grace. Since this is the general consensus it seems only right that at least the Serenity Prayer and the Lord's Prayer be used in connection with our meetings. It does not seem necessary to defer to the feelings of our agnostic and atheist newcomers to the extent of completely hiding our light under a bushel. However, around here, the leader of the meeting usually asks those to join him in the Lord's Prayer who feel that they would care to do so. The worst that happens to the objectors is that they have to listen to it. This is doubtless a salutary exercise in tolerance at their stage of progress. So that's the sum of the Lord's Prayer business as I recall it. Your letter made me wonder in just what connection you raise the question. Meanwhile, please know just how much Lois and I treasure the friendship of you both. May Providence let our paths presently cross one of these days. Devotedly yours, Bill Wilson - - - - From: "ArtSheehan" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:27pm Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer, Or Not - Part 2 of 2 In regards to "Christian" prayers at AA meetings: As Bill Sees It, pg 293: "He can do this because he now accepts a God who is All - and who loves all. When he says, 'Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name,' he deeply and humbly means it ...." Unfortunately, some members focus on who wrote the Lord's Prayer instead of its content and substance. The Serenity Prayer as a "non-Christian" prayer: If someone thinks the Serenity Prayer is not a "Christian" prayer, they might want to think again or do a bit of research. Compared to the Lord's Prayer, the Serenity Prayer is just as, actually more, "Christian" in its full version (we only say the first part): "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference. Living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time. Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace. Taking, as Jesus did, this sinful world as it is, not as I would have it. Trusting that You will make all things right if I surrender to Your will. So that I may be reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy with You in the next." Some unfortunately alter the wording of the prayer from "as Jesus did" to "as He did". References to so-called "Christian" prayers appear throughout AA literature. The term "Thy will be done" is from the Lord's Prayer (i.e. "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done" from the book of Matthew). The book of James is the source of the term "Faith without works is dead." Big Book references: Pgs 67 and 88: "Thy will be done" Pg 85: "Thy will (not mine) be done" Pgs 14, 76 and 88: "Faith without works is dead" Pg 87: "If not members of religious bodies, we sometimes select and memorize a few set prayers which emphasize the principles we have been discussing. There are many helpful books also. Suggestions about these may be obtained from one's priest, minister, or rabbi. Be quick to see where religious people are right. Make use of what they offer." 12&12 References: Pg 32: "Thy will be done" Pgs 41, 102, 103: "Thy will, not mine, be done" The 12&12 and AA Comes of Age also contain the so-called "11th Step Prayer." Its actual title is the "Peace Prayer of Saint Francis" (a Christian Saint). It was Bill W's favorite prayer. However, St Francis didn't write it (according to Franciscan web site). But it is a beautiful [and in its origins a Christian] prayer. Extracts from Bill W's 1960 talk to the National Clergy Conference on Alcoholism "... Every thoughtful AA realizes that the divine grace, which has always flowed through the Church, is the ultimate foundation on which AA rests. Our spiritual origins are Christian." [Later in the talk] "If these misgivings had real substance, they would be serious indeed. But, as I have already indicated, Alcoholics Anonymous cannot in the least be regarded as a new religion. Our Twelve Steps have no theological content, except that which speaks of "God as we understand Him." This means that each individual AA member may define God according to whatever faith or creed he may have. Therefore there isn't the slightest interference with the religious views of any of our membership. The rest of the Twelve Steps define moral attitudes and helpful practices, all of them precisely Christian in character. Therefore, as far as they go, the Steps are good Christianity; indeed they are good Catholicism, something which Catholic writers have affirmed more than once." General Service Conference Advisory Actions: 1952: "all Conference sessions are to open with the Serenity Prayer and close with the Lord's Prayer" 1954: "the General Service Conference will end with the recitation of the Lord's Prayer" 1975: "convention meetings will open with the Serenity Prayer and close with the Lord's Prayer" The AA Group Pamphlet Pg 16: "whether open or closed, AA group meetings are conducted by AA members, who determine the format of their meetings. [Pg 19] many meetings close with members reciting the Lord's Prayer or the Serenity Prayer." Epilogue All references to so-called "Christian" prayers in Conference-approved literature and meetings do not in any way imply affiliation with, or endorsement of, any religion. Cheers Arthur - - - - From Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) When the AA people met at Dr. Bob and Anne's house, they finished by reciting the Lord's Prayer. See Doctor Bob and the Good Oldtimers pp. 141 and 148, also 261 (Clarence Snyder's AA meetings in Cleveland) and 183. This made good sense, in terms of their emphasis on the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7), since the Lord's Prayer is taken from the middle of that work (Matthew 6:9-13). - - - - Message #2247 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2247 From Jim Blair (jblair@videotron.ca) The question of holding hands I have looked into and it appears that at the International in Toronto in 1965, the attendees were asked to hold hands and join together as the "Responsibility Declaration" was read for the first time. Older members seen to recollect that "hand holding" grew out of the Toronto experience. - - - - Message #2248 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2248 From "Robert Stonebraker" (rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) The "Lord's Prayer" carried over from the Oxford Group and was used at the first AA meeting that Clarence Snyder started at Abby Golrick's home; 2345 Stillman Rd, Cleveland Hts., Ohio, on May 11th, 1939. For verification please read page 261 of "Dr. Bob And The Good old Timers." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7823. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Clarence Snyder''s response to the Alcoholic Foundation From: Jim Myers . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2011 9:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Bob and AAHistoryLovers, I just looked around my site and came up with this: http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/ClarenceS-AAWS.pdf Might this be the same pdf files you wish to send? I believe they are. I know I have the page (pdf) stored in my on-line "aahistory" folder, but I also believe you can find the files through this link on my site as well ( http://silkworth.net/gsowatch/ )- not sure where at the moment though. This 2nd link is actually a mirrored site that permission was given me to mirror on silkworth.net. A warning to you though on this 2nd link. Some AA members believe this mirrored site is a bit controversial. Yours in service, Jim M. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7824. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA speaker named Alabam Carruthers From: John Moore . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2011 11:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Alabam Carruthers was a popular AA speaker in Southern California when I got sober in the 1970's. I heard her speak several times and loved her earthy sense of humor. She had that Southern drawl and I recall her saying that one bartender flattered her by referring to her as a "Tennessee lover". She explained wryly that when she came into the bar, he said "Here comes that f**king Hillbilly." She also was fond of urging action ... "If you pray for potatoes, you better reach for the hoe." We always looked forward to hearing Alabam's pitch. John M Burlington, Vermont US ps. I know little about Alabam but found the following online, and I would love to hear more about her ... ALABAM CARRUTHERS - WACO, TX 5-4-90 Evelyn "Alabam" Carruthers, from Hollywood, California delivered this Alcoholics Anonymous talk at the 6th Heart of Texas Roundup in Waco, Texas on May 4th, 1990. At the time of this recording, Alabam was sober for 37-1/2 years. She began her drinking career at age 16 and over the years, drank a lot of whiskey, did not sleep properly, and did not eat properly. Many times, Alabam woke up in hotel rooms in different cities and had no idea where she was or had she had gotten there. Alabam says she was in a deeply "maniacal" condition when she finally tried to sober up. She shares a few humorous stories about going on twelfth step calls. Alabam finishes her talk by saying, "Every day of sobriety gets better and better and better, and if it keeps getting much better, I don’t know that I can stand it." http://www.sobrietytalks.com/category/AA-TALKS-BY-WOMEN-SPEAKERS-12 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7825. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Format for A.A. meetings -- history of its development From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2011 10:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The AA Grapevine ran a series on the formats of meetings in different areas of the U.S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7826. . . . . . . . . . . . 1944 letters between The Alcoholic Foundation and Clarence Snyder. From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2011 10:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII These pages are on the Silkworth site, with handwritten notes, but lack the later added and more legible typed sidebar notes: http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/ClarenceS-AAWS.pdf Bob S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7827. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Five women in early AA: Lil, Florence, Sylvia, Mary, and Marty From: Michael Margetis . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/15/2011 6:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII RE: Florence Rankin Kimball ROWE wrote > 1st woman to become sober in A.A. Her story > "A Feminine Victory" was in the first edition. > She relapsed and reportedly took her own life > (can someone confirm the suicide?). WAIA (Washington DC Intergroup) has a copy of Florence's death certificate. It does NOT state that her death was a result of suicide. I believe cause of death was stated as some form of meningitis. Here is a link to a document about early AA in the DC area: http://www.aa-dc.org/sites/default/files/Wash-Book-21Oct2008_0.pdf Hope this helps. Mike Margetis Brunswick, Maryland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7828. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why don''t you choose your own concept of God? From: caligari . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/15/2011 6:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Taking that theme further I am beginning to wonder whether the entire concept of a God of your understanding as presented in Bill's story is anything more than an idealized anachronistic retelling of early AA as a more palatable Big Book introduction of AA to the newcomer." I wondered about this myself. Then I listened to a recording of a talk given by Ebby (Jan. 1958?) Ebby remembers the "kitchen table talk" very differently than Bill. However, referring to the Oxford group encounters PRIOR to his talk with Bill he states, "I really figured that these guys must have something. That there must be a higher power because they were the ones that originated the phrase believe in a Higher God or a Higher Power as you understand him". You can find these words at about the 25 minute mark in the tape. You can listen to the audio here: http://aa-meetings.com/audio/speakers/ind.php?id=87 Or here: http://xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1251 It seems to me reasonable to assume that Ebby would use these words in his "pitch" to Bill that night. How the four handwritten paragraphs from the working manuscript came to be written is still a mystery to me. However the idea that the phrase "God of your understanding" is "anachronistic" or an "idealized mythical retelling" does not seem plausible in light of Ebby's own words. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7829. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1944 letters between The Alcoholic Foundation and Clarence Snyder. From: Bryan S. Reid . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/17/2011 10:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi all, What I am very curious to see is the letter that Clarence Snyder sent to the Foundation that Leonard Harrison responded to in his July 7th 1944 letter. Does anyone know if a copy of that exists? Thanks! Bryan IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7830. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the Serenity Prayer as a "non-Christian" prayer From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/17/2011 10:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Serenity Prayer as a non-Christian prayer in Messages #7822 and #2774 Do we know who added the second part to the Serenity Prayer and when? Sources? The original prayer according to several good references - A.A. Grapevine January 1950 and Elisabeth Sifton's book "The Serentiy Prayer" (Sifton is Niebuhr's daughter) - had nothing like it. The original prayer is: God, give us grace to accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed, courage to change the things that should be changed, and the wisdom to distinguish the one from the other. I am not questioning the appropriateness of the changes, altho Sifton did, nor its use in A.A., just who changed it and when. Along these same lines, there is an article in the January 1997 Grapevine tying the phrases from the Christian Lord's Prayer to specific lines from Jewish Scripture. I was fortunate to be exposed to Emmet Fox's take on the LP thru a series of vesper services when I was in prep school, so that aspect wasn't new to me when I saw it in A.A. material. Tommy H in Danville __________________________________________ From Messages #7822 and #2774: >The Serenity Prayer as a "non-Christian" prayer: >If someone thinks the Serenity Prayer is not a "Christian" prayer, >they might want to think again or do a bit of research. Compared to >the Lord's Prayer, the Serenity Prayer is just as, actually more, >"Christian" in its full version (we only say the first part): >"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, >courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference. >Living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time. Accepting >hardship as a pathway to peace. Taking, as Jesus did, this sinful >world as it is, not as I would have it. Trusting that You will make >all things right if I surrender to Your will. So that I may be >reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy with You in the next." >Some unfortunately alter the wording of the prayer from "as Jesus >did" to "as He did". IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7831. . . . . . . . . . . . Chronology of N.A. -- includes some good A.A. material From: ckbudnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/17/2011 4:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I want to make the group aware of a chronology recently posted online by Bill White, Boyd Pickard and myself. The chronology is of Narcotics Anonymous and goes through 1976. What may be of interest to members of AA History Lovers is that the chronology includes a significant amount of information related to Alcoholics Anonymous (members, correspondence, GSH) and its role in helping transmit the AA program to addicts. [Moderator: such as for example long excerpts from the lecture Bill W. gave at the Yale Summer School of Alcohol Studies in 1944.] The chronology can be accessed at the following website.: http://www.williamwhitepapers.com/pr/2011-09-13%20NA%20Chronology%20-%20Volu me%2\ 0One.pdf [32] Please be patient when clicking on the link as the file may take a minute to load due to it's size. Chris B. Raleigh, North Carolina IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7832. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the Serenity Prayer as a ''non-Christian'' prayer From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/17/2011 5:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Elizabeth Sifton says her father (a German Evangelical pastor, I believe) composed the prayer in its present form in 1943, but it was clipped from the NY Herald Tribune and appears in AA possession before 1943. The chronology is confused but either Niebuhr composed an earlier version of the prayer or (possibly) translated and edited an old Pietist prayer, in or before the 1930s (and it may have included some or all of the longer version). In one sense, written by a Christian theologian (from the Calvinist German Evangelical Synod), it is certainly a Christian prayer and might even be considered sectarian. The Lord's Prayer, on the other hand, was given us by a Jewish teacher who is considered by Islam the last and the greatest of the prophets before the Prophet: because Christians consider that teacher to be the Christ, it is therefore a Christian prayer, but the words are no more specifically Christian than those of the Serenity Prayer. As to the form of the Serenity Prayer AA officially uses, it is not the same as used by Hazelden, for example, or even the slightly different form quoted in LIVING SOBER -- and many AAs who recite it use one or the other of those forms. In the form apparently eventually settled on by Bill, it asks -- determined by the presence or absence of "the" -- for "the serenity to accept" (meaning enough serenity for that purpose) but "courage to change" and "wisdom to know" (meaning courage and wisdom generally which will have the desired effect -- presumably among others). Now Bill didn't always follow strict grammatical rules, and this may be a coincidence, but I understand AAs are leary of calling something a coincidence, and I would think one wouldn't want to limit one's requests for courage and wisdom, but one might think unlimited serenity wouldn't be the best thing. Historically it seems a bit odd that two sectarian prayers (the German Evangelical "Serenity Prayer" and the French Catholic "Prayer of St Francis") are Conference-approved (in the 12&12), the "Our Father" is of course not, and at GSO the Serenity Prayer replaces the "Our Father" (Protestant version, but from the Episcopal BCP as used at Calvary) at the end of meetings. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7833. . . . . . . . . . . . St. Cloud, Minnesota: our many formats for A.A. meetings From: gadgetsdad . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2011 3:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My best objective supposition would be that each group developed its format based on what existing groups were doing in that area. In my locality -- St.Cloud, Minnesota -- I attend 4 meetings a week. Each one has a different format. (1) The Call-up meeting does the Preamble, How it Works and the traditions before the start of the meeting and closes with the Lord's Prayer. (2) The step study does the Preamble and How It Works before the meeting and the Promises before the Lord's Prayer. (3) Saturday Night does the closed meeting statement, How it Works and the Traditions and reads the last 2 paragraphs on page 164 before the Lords Prayer. (4) Back to Basics does How it Works and the Traditions and asks if anyone needs special time before the meeting starts and closes with the Lord's Prayer. This question "Does anyone need special time?" seems to be a localism since I have never heard it asked at any of the meetings in Minnesota or the other 13 states where I have attended meetings. Several meetings in the Minneapolis area close with the Seventh Step prayer instead of the Lord's Prayer. The only constant I have seen in 21 years is How it Works. When I have queried the longest timer or even founding member of local groups to how their format was established the response is, "We have always done it this way." What could be the genesis in Los Angeles, I suspect, would not apply to Baltimore, or to beautiful downtown P Minnesota. Brad I. Area 35 Archivist IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7834. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the Serenity Prayer as a ''non-Christian'' prayer From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2011 2:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've yet to be in any AA meeting where that "second" paragraph of the "Serenity Prayer" has been used. I don't understand the debate here. There are many prayers, meditional phrases, and quotes taken or adapted from various forms of historical literature or disciplines, used throughout our books. Nothing is original to us. Every idea in our literature has been distilled from some other discipline. I have never been able to grasp the purpose of these kinds of useless debates. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7835. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Women in early AA From: regina_tierney . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2011 12:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Anything about Felicia G - When Stars Don't Fall- where is she on the list? SO glad people are discussing early women in AA! Fascinating! - - - - John Barton wrote: > > Here is a starting contribution from the info I have at my fingertips. Listing below does not indicate that they achieved permanent sobriety. In fact many did not. For additional names as of Feb 1941 (or possibly later) see the Cleveland 220 List. > > 1. Jane Sturdevant - Feb 1937 - The Amos List > 2. Florence Rankin - Sept 1937 - GSO Pioneer Questionaire, Bill W. Correspondence > 3. Edith Scott - Jan 1938 - The Amos List > 4. Hazel Cloos - March 1939 - The NJ Survey > 5. Marty Mann - April 11, 1939 > 6. Sylvia Kauffman - September 13, 1939 - DBGO > 7. Helen Penhale - September 1939-NJ Survey Jan 1, 1940 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7836. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Women in early AA From: John Moore . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/17/2011 7:26:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII *In her AA talk, Sybil Corwin (DOS March 23, 1941) says that she was the first AA woman in the West .... I am sure there are other notable AA women before her, but Sybil was the first female member west of the Mississippi River. A fascinating look at Sybil and early AA and life with no AA Traditions is laid out in a letter from Anonymous Member who is either "Matt" or "L", whom I suppose was in her group in Southern California. Info about who wrote this letter would be nice to have. Following is the letter (which may have been seen on this group before) which I like to read every once in a while. Sybil was the office manager of Central Office in Los Angeles for years. She was also married to the late Jim Willis, who was founder of Gamblers Anonymous. John M Burlington Vermont US Sybil's share can be downloaded as MP3 from: https://www.4shared.com/audio/taKk7Y8Q/AA_History_-_Sybil_C_of_Los_An.html =============================================== The First Woman Kicked Out of AA and The Reason for Tradition 3 AA pioneer Sybil Corwin discusses AA history… This was passed along to me from a friend. Thought all of you might enjoy this bit of our history about one of the 'whys' we have traditions. Here is the story about Irma Livoni. Each year around this time I try to tell this true story about what happened not just on Dec. 7th, 1941 (Pearl Harbor Day) but what happened to one of the few women who was in AA at that time and about a letter she received in the mail on Monday Dec. 8th, which virtually kicked her out of AA. In Dec. of 1984, I had been sober for 2 1/2 years, and working with my sponsors Bob and Sybil Corwin since Jan. of 84. Sybil had gotten sober in March of 1941 and at the time she was 43 yrs sober. We were driving home from a meeting and she asked me the date ( to her it was just Sunday). I told her it was Dec. 8th, and that yesterday (Dec 7th) was the anniversary of Pearl Harbor Day. She said "Matt, have I ever told you about Irma Livoni?" "Nope, who is she?" She said, "Well, when we get back to the house, come in for coffee and I will tell you a story about AA history and some of the reasons we have tradition 3. Oh, and by the way Matt, did you know that the literature specifically protests 'queers, plain crackpots and fallen women,' and since you and I are at least two out of those three, we should be especially grateful for tradition 3. I'll show you it when we get home." I laughed out loud, as Sybil had a great sense of humor, and she had been a taxi dancer, back before she got sober, you know one of those "10 cents a dance" ladies, and she was divorced twice, and was a single mom, as well as an alcoholic back then, so the term fallen woman" was something that hit close to home. She had told me that it was very different back in the 30's and 40's for a woman to be an alcoholic. Sybil said it was a time when women wore hats and gloves, and "respectable women" were not usually found in a bar or at "whoopee parties." Our Thursday night step study had voted to not cover the traditions after we got to step 12, so I figured they must not be very important and thought I'd probably be bored with the conversation, but she got my attention telling me that "queers, crackpots and fallen women" were mentioned, so I agreed to come in for coffee. Besides Sybil had been sober longer than I had been alive. I didn't argue with her very much. Sybil got down her copy of the big book. She said, I want you to find the traditions in there, and read me tradition 3. It was a 1st edition Big Book. Thicker than mine. I said, "Is this why they call it the Big Book?" She said, "exactly, Bill had it printed on big paper, with big margins around the type, so that people would think they were really getting something for their money." I looked in the back of the book, where I thought the traditions were, but couldn't find them. "I can't find them, Sybil." "Exactly. That's because we didn't have any traditions back in 1941 when I came in, and Matt, AA was in mortal danger of destroying itself, which is why we have traditions now." Then she had me find them in my 3rd edition and in my 12x12. I didn't read it all, just the caption heading, and then she started telling me the story of IRMA LIVONI. Irma was a sponsee of Sybil's. She also became a member in 1941, just after Sybil. Sybil took her into her home. (Sybil told me that many people's bottoms were very low then, no home, no job, no watch, no car, nothing). Sybil said it was different then for a woman to be an alcoholic, That most of them had burned all their bridges with their families, and were looked down upon, even more so than male alcoholics. Sybil said she watched AA help Irma get sober, watched AA help Irma get cleaned up, watched AA help Irma get her first apartment in sobriety. Then she said that on Dec. 5th, 1941 a self appointed group of the members signed a letter to Irma and mailed it 2 days before Pearl Harbor, on that Friday, Dec. 5th. Here is a copy of the letter: ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS Post Office Box 607 Hollywood Station, Hollywood, California December Sixth 1 9 4 1 Irma Livoni 939 S. Gramercy Place Los Angeles, California Dear Mrs. Livoni : At a meeting of the Executive Committee of the Los Angeles Group of Alcoholics Anonymous, held Dec. 4th, 1941, it was decided that your attendance at group meetings was no longer desired until certain expla- nations and plans for the future were made to the satisfaction of this committee. This action has been taken for reasons which should be most apparent to yourself. It was decided that, should you so desire, you may appear before members of this committee and state your attitude. This opportunity will be afforded you between now and December 15th, 1941. You may communicate with us at the above address by that date. In case you do not wish to appear, we shall consider the matter closed and that your membership is terminated. ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, Los Angeles Group Mortimer Joseph Frank Randall Edmund Jussen Jr. Fay D. Loomis Al Marineau I was stunned. "How could they do this Sybil?" Because we didn't have any guidelines, any traditions to protect us from good intentions. AA was very new, and people did all sorts of things, thinking they were protecting the fellowship". Sybil then said to close my eyes and imagine my being in the following setting. Sybil explained that Dec. 7th, 1941 was Pearl Harbor Day (a Sunday). She said that on that Sunday night everyone in LA was afraid that Los Angeles would also be attacked and bombed. There was a citywide blackout, people were so terrified. She said that on Monday Dec.8th President Roosevelt gave the speech that talked about "the date that will live in infamy" and that we were now at war with Japan and Germany. She said, that was the day that Irma received her letter. There was only one meeting in the entire state of California when Sybil came in, in 1941. By December there may have been 2 or 3, but Irma had nowhere else to go, no one else to turn to, no other group in California that she could ask for help. Sybil said, "Imagine only 1 or 2 meetings in your entire state, and being shunned by your family and by society and by the only group of people who were on your side, your AA group. Imagine them shutting the door on you and sending you such a letter." I shivered at the thought of it, It was Christmas time, the stores were decorated and now poor Irma was all alone, I thought about how it was in 1984 with 2000 meetings a week to choose from in Southern California, and then I imagined having no other help for a hopeless alcoholic. Sybil told me that Irma never came back to another meeting, left AA and died of alcoholism. She wrote to Bill about the incident, and I cannot tell you that is the reason that the following is a part of the 3rd Tradition, but it certainly seems to apply. From Tradition 3, 12 & 12, page 141: ...that we would neither punish nor deprive any AA of membership, that we must never compel anyone to pay anything, believe anything, or conform to anything? The answer, now seen in Tradition 3, was simplicity itself. At last experience taught us that to take away any alcoholics full chance was sometimes to pronounce his death sentence, and often to condemn him to endless misery. Who dared to be judge, jury and executioner of his own sick brother?" JUDGE, JURY AND EXECUTIONER I remember looking at those words again and again. They seemed to get larger and larger. JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER I hadn't really noticed Executioner when I had read it the first time at my 12 & 12 study group. Again I felt so bad for this poor lady. Wow, those words really had a different meaning than when I had read the traditions before, So here it is , 23 years later, and each Dec. 7th & 8th I always think about Irma Livoni, and how lucky I am, that we have traditions now, I also think of how lucky I was to have met Sybil and so lucky that she appointed herself my sponsor. Years later I realized how everything she ever taught me was like gold, but in 1984 I had no idea who Sybil really was or how lucky I was to have her as my sponsor. She was like a piece of living history, but I really didn't realize how valuable that was in explaining WHY we do some of the things we do (like the story she told me about how they never said "Hi Sybil" and no one said "Hi my name is Matt and I'm an alcoholic" back then). Besides being one of the first women in AA,. Sybil was the first woman west of the Mississippi. She also became the head of LA's central office for 12 years, and she became close friends with Bill and Lois. She and Bob even used to go on vacation with them. She used to tell me all sorts of stories about Bill Wilson and things he said to her. He was very interested in how AA would work for women, as there were very few women worldwide in AA back in 1941. Marty Mann came in before Sybil did, but very few stayed sober. I learned that night that no one can get kicked out of AA. We can ask a disturbing wet drunk that he needs to settle down or we might have to ask him to step outside for that day, but we don't vote to kick anyone out forever . And we don't shun people because our guidelines, our traditions tell us that no one has to believe in anything (they don't have to like me) and they don't have to conform to anything, they don't have to dress a certain way, or have no facial hair, or pay anything .) Even if I get drunk again, I am still welcome at any AA meeting. So that's the story about Irma Livoni. Feel free to pass this along to anyone you know who might be interested in knowing a bit about how and why the traditions got started. I think it sort of puts a face on Tradition 3: the face of a woman I never knew, who got kicked out of AA. Who got drunk and died. Thank God for Tradition 3 and thank God for all of you. I truly appreciate and cherish all the people in this group. Best AA love to you all. L. =============================================== IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7837. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung: real religious experience and happens to you ... From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/15/2011 4:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I see James placed one feeling -- the presence of a uplifting force -- as a brand of spirituality, as significant. Bill W wrote abut his feeling such in a religious environment in England during the WWI period, and then later in Towns. It seems like one's feeling about mystical powers are more important than mystical powers. Bill W did add the line, "For it is by self forgetting that one finds." That goes back to what was written in the first chapter, Simple but a price had to be paid. It meant the destruction of self centeredness. Dr. Bob said it very simply, when he said, We were inclined to say instead, "Look me over, boys. Pretty good, huh?" We had no humility, no sense of having received anything through the grace of our Heavenly Father. The part of Dr. Bob's statement I like is when he said, "Look me over, pretty good, huh?" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7838. . . . . . . . . . . . Women in early AA: Geraldine D. From: Tom H. . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2011 9:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am trying to find a talk by the late Geraldine Owen Delaney whose sobriety date was April 23, 1947. I always called her Mrs. Delaney and she reminded me often that her initials were G.O.D. I too am blessed to have known a pioneer. The talk I am looking for by Mrs. Delaney is called "Pills and Thrills." any help would be appreciated. Tom H. Atlanta Sent from Tom's Space Ship IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7839. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA speaker named Alabam Carruthers From: Dov . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/19/2011 2:15:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here's Joe P. of Joe and Charlie on his first encounter with Alabam: "And after I got sober, I'd been sober about 3 or 4 months, I went to a little conference in Apache, Oklahoma. And I met a lady there, some of you know, her name was Alabam Carruthers. Some of you all knew Alabam. She become a big influence on my life. And she said a couple of things that night that really struck me. She said she had a soul sickness. And I could identify with that. Cause my last night of drinking I was sitting on a bar stool and I had a real sick feeling in my stomach and it wasn't the throwing up type sick it was sick feeling. And she said, "It was a soul sickness and that's what I had. A soul sickness". And then she said another thing that night. She said, "I have peace of mind today". And boy I mean that really struck me. Cause that's all I've ever wanted was peace of mind. And I loved Alabam. She was always excited about life and what was going to happen next. And after that meeting was over with, we were sitting around the lobby of this hotel and it was about 3:00 in the morning and I was sitting there watching Alabam operate and I wasn't saying anything. Finally it was just Alabam and myself and my little sponsor George, a little black guy laying in her lap. And I began to talk to Alabam. And I said Alabam, you said you had peace of mind tonight, how did you get peace of mind? I want peace of mind. And she said, well Joe, tell me what's going on in your mind. And I told her how I was going to meetings and going to meetings and going to meetings. But then at night I'd go home and lay down and my mind would fly open and I'd begin to think about all those situations that we talked about. And she said, well Joe, you're just full of resentments. And I said what is a resentment? See, I didn't know. She said a resentment was old angers and old hurts that were re-felt over and over and over again. And all that anger that you intended to use up on them you're turning it in on yourself and making yourself sick and blaming it on them. She explained that to me and it took a while for me to understand. Finally I did. And I said, well is there any solutions for these? And she said, well yes there is. There just happens to be. And she referred to page 67 and she showed me this information here. And she said some of those deep-seeded resentments like you have you'll need some additional help. And she said on page 551 of this book is the story of a lady who had those deep-seated resentments. And if you would turn to that page in the book she said we will see what it had to say. Well Alabam had a purse that was about this big and it was about that deep and she began to look in that purse. You know how they are, digging around. And she finally found one of these books. I didn't think she was ever going to ding it. She pulled it out of there and she said well let's look at page 551 and see what this says." http://www.elmoware.com/TextFiles/Joe_and_Charlie.doc --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, John Moore wrote: > > Alabam Carruthers was a popular AA speaker in Southern California when I got sober in the 1970's. I heard her speak several times and loved her earthy sense of humor. She had that Southern drawl and I recall her saying that one bartender flattered her by referring to her as a "Tennessee lover". She explained wryly that when she came into the bar, he said "Here comes that f**king Hillbilly." She also was fond of urging action ... "If you pray for potatoes, you better reach for the hoe." We always looked forward to hearing Alabam's pitch. > > John M > Burlington, Vermont US > > ps. I know little about Alabam but found the following online, and I would love to hear more about her ... > > ALABAM CARRUTHERS - WACO, TX 5-4-90 > Evelyn "Alabam" Carruthers, from Hollywood, California delivered this Alcoholics Anonymous talk at the 6th Heart of Texas Roundup in Waco, Texas on May 4th, 1990. At the time of this recording, Alabam was sober for 37-1/2 years. She began her drinking career at age 16 and over the years, drank a lot of whiskey, did not sleep properly, and did not eat properly. Many times, Alabam woke up in hotel rooms in different cities and had no idea where she was or had she had gotten there. Alabam says she was in a deeply "maniacal" condition when she finally tried to sober up. She shares a few humorous stories about going on twelfth step calls. Alabam finishes her talk by saying, "Every day of sobriety gets better and better and better, and if it keeps getting much better, I don't know that I can stand it." > > http://www.sobrietytalks.com/category/AA-TALKS-BY-WOMEN-SPEAKERS-12 > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7840. . . . . . . . . . . . Where to find article called ''The Alcoholic Brain''? From: bigbookjoe . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/19/2011 12:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Several years ago I was shown an article on "The Alcoholic Brain" and have been trying to find it again. I believe it was written at the University of Hawaii by a "Dr. Ho" - which stuck to my brain and was done sometime in the late 1980s or early 1990s. The study compared young men, 18 to 24. Half of whom were "normal" and half with clear problems with alcohol. They were given PET scans while being given stimuli - paintings, music, etc. The results showed that the non-alcoholic brain was active only as much was needed. For example, if the picture was a farm there was a sequence of increased activity restricted to the nature of the stimuli. With a picture of a farm there was a fairly simple sequence of sky, cloud, tree, grass, barn, cow. They were done. The alcoholic brain began at a low boil, so every activity brought other related responses. Their sequence was sky, cloud - "I saw a cloud like that. Where was that? Oh - the tornado. Where did I see a Tornado? Nebraska. Why was I in Nebraska? Nancy. I must have been drunk - that woman's crazy..." They get lost in a storm of associations and never get to the tree. The article also had two PET images of a normal and a boiling brain. To me this would explain the way my brain works, even in sobriety, and would also explain why most alcoholics report feeling "more in control" after some alcohol. Since alcohol is a depressant, there is some logic to these results. I have been searching PubMed and come up with dozens of studies on PET studies with alcoholic brains, but not the specific study. Does anyone know the article or have a better way to find it? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7841. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA speaker named Alabam Carruthers From: hartsell . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/19/2011 3:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was there at APACHE that year, good memories , thanks for the reminder of a small gathering which had a significant impact upon many folks ---- of course trying to get breakfast was a challenge :-) sherry ---- from ne tx but from ark back then Original Message From: Dov Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 Here's Joe P. of Joe and Charlie on his first encounter with Alabam: "And after I got sober, I'd been sober about 3 or 4 months, I went to a little conference in Apache, Oklahoma. And I met a lady there, some of you know, her name was Alabam Carruthers. Some of you all knew Alabam. She become a big influence on my life. And she said a couple of things that night that really struck me ...." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7842. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Women in early AA From: Robt Woodson . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/20/2011 9:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII O.K., here is a list of those ladies that are mentioned on the early "Cleveland" 220 List that John Barton had mentioned in his post. I count eight women. Assuming, that is, that the "Val" mentioned below is a lady. Roberta Beckwith, of Akron, Ohio Florence Caskey, of Akron, Ohio Lorie M. Everett, of "Next Airport, Darrowville,Ohio" Florence Griffith, of Akron, Ohio Laura Hadvick, of Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio Sadie Irving, of Chicago, Illinois Sylvia Kauffman, of Evanston, Illinois (already noted in our research) Val Lang, of Youngstown, Ohio In the list itself addresses are given along with the city of residence, there are however no sobriety dates, or any other dates on the list itself. Obviously some cross out "editing" was done early on, which might indicate a fall from grace. For what it's worth, I'll note that the "Founders" are indicated with asterisks on the list, and that Clarence S. is thus indicated as being a "Founder." Best, Woody in Akron IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7843. . . . . . . . . . . . The Collected Ernie Kurtz From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2011 12:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ernie Kurtz has very graciously allowed the articles in his book "The Collected Ernie Kurtz" to be made available online for anyone who wishes to download and read them. Ernest Kurtz, THE COLLECTED ERNIE KURTZ contains twelve never-before published articles by the master of AA history, published in 1999 by The Bishop of Books and reprinted in June 2008 by Hindsfoot (ISBN 978-0-595-52099-2). See http://hindsfoot.org/ktcek1.html FOUR OF THESE ESSAYS are now available for downloading (the other eight will be posted as soon as they are formatted for the internet): Drugs and the Spiritual: Bill W. Takes LSD http://hindsfoot.org/tcek03.pdf "Spiritual Rather Than Religious": The Contribution of Alcoholics Anonymous http://hindsfoot.org/tcek04.pdf Research on Alcoholics Anonymous: The Historical Context http://hindsfoot.org/tcek01.pdf Alcoholics Anonymous: A Phenomenon in American Religious History http://hindsfoot.org/tcek02.pdf Ernie is one of the most important figures of the second generation of AA writers and thinkers. In him we see the intersection between (on the one hand) traditional AA thought and the convictions of someone who has always remained at heart a committed Catholic and a deeply conservative religious thinker and (from the other side) the world of twentieth century existentialism and the great American intellectual ferment of the 1960s, 70s, and 80s. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7844. . . . . . . . . . . . Some controversial material from Charlie Bishop From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2011 2:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We are going to be putting up links to some historically controversial material, which Charlie Bishop has posted on the Hindsfoot website, about disputes over AA copyrights and trademarks. These are mostly historical but one of them current: people attempting to sell items on e-Bay being forced to remove these items by officials from the New York AA office because the words "Alcoholics Anonymous" or "AA" appear somewhere in the description of the product -- e.g. Ernie Kurtz's book Not-God being described as "a book on Alcoholics Anonymous history." Please, please let us confine ourselves to posting responses only if we have new historical facts to add to what is discussed in Charlie's postings, or if we want to correct one of the historical facts presented there (correcting a date, a name, the legal principle that was actually invoked in the court filing, or something of that sort). Please let us work to avoid getting ensnared in a ferocious debate over our own personal opinions on these matters. We have already devoted many postings to this dispute in the past -- look at our Message Board and search for the key terms -- and nothing will be accomplished by starting that up again. However, the copyright and trademark issues in and of themselves are a part of AA history, and would have to be described and discussed in any detailed history of AA which attempted to cover the period from 1955 to the present (i.e. from the ending point "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" down to the present). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7845. . . . . . . . . . . . AA archivist Charles Bishop, Jr. and the Kirk Collection From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2011 2:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Charles Bishop, Jr. is the co-author with Bill Pittman of the basic AA history reference work To Be Continued -- The Alcoholics Anonymous World Bibliography 1935-1994. His library of over 15,000 items on alcoholism and A.A. history was the foundation of the world famous Chester Kirk Collection of Alcoholics Anonymous and Alcoholism at Brown University in Providence, Rhode Island (which is one of the great Ivy League universities, along with Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc.). http://hindsfoot.org/essays.html (BOTTOM THIRD OF THE WEBPAGE, with a picture of Charlie at the beginning) THE KIRK COLLECTION In 1995, Chester H. Kirk, in a generous contribution to the Brown University Center for Alcohol and Addiction Studies, established the Chester H. Kirk Collection on Alcoholism and Alcoholics Anonymous. The 15,000 items purchased initially with Chester Kirk's gift were amassed over two decades by Charles Bishop, an antiquarian bookseller and author of several research tools on Alcoholics Anonymous and related groups. Acquisition of this collection, one of the largest of its kind in the country, immediately brought the University attention as a center for the study of addiction to alcohol and other substances and to the history of attempts to treat or prevent such addictions. Chronologically, the collection ranged from a leaf from the 1493 Nuremberg Chronicle depicting a drunken Noah to late 20th century studies. The formats were equally diverse: in addition to printed books, pamphlets there were periodicals, newspapers, dealers' catalogues, posters, audiovisual materials, photographs, 18th century engravings and 19th and 20th century sheet music. American in emphasis, the collection provided rich resources for the study of the temperance and prohibitions movements of the 19th and 20th centuries, hospital-based treatment of addictive behavior, and the 20th century evolution of self-help programs under the leadership of Alcoholics Anonymous. The collection includes a copy of the first book published in British-speaking North America on alcoholism, Anthony Benezet's The Mighty Destroyer Displayed (1774) as well as current issues of The Union Signal, the periodical of the Woman's Christian Temperance Union. Related materials ranged widely, from those bearing on drinking customs (bartenders' guides and drinking vessels) to anti-drunk driving campaigns and studies of other widespread addictions such as tobacco and narcotic drugs. In the years since the acquisition of the Kirk Collection the Library, in collaboration with the Center for Alcohol and Addiction Studies, has continued to acquire, by donation and purchase such important collections as Dr. Bob's papers (the Robert Holbrook Smith Collection), the Rutgers-Anti-Saloon League Collection of Temperance and Addiction Studies Periodicals, the Marty Mann NCADD Archives, the Ernest Kurtz Library of Alcoholics Anonymous Alcoholism Literature, and the Clarence Snyder A.A. Collection. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7846. . . . . . . . . . . . Lawsuits: AA copyrights and trademarks -- Charlie Bishop, Jr. From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2011 2:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Charlie Bishop, Jr. gives a historical account of the controversies produced when Jon S. of Akron published (in 1985) a facsimile copy of the first 1939 edition of the book Alcoholics Anonymous, as well as the Circle and Triangle logo legal disputes of the 1980s, the 1994 Mexican Big Book lawsuit, the German Big Book lawsuits which began in 1996, and the AAWS attempts (beginning around 2002) to keep anything being sold on eBay from being described as pertaining to Alcoholics Anonymous or A.A. in any way. http://hindsfoot.org/essays.html (BOTTOM THIRD OF THE WEBPAGE, with a picture of Charlie at the beginning) ALSO three other items in Charlie's section can be read, all dealing with this same topic: "Litigation: Or, if the Suit Fits, Wear It" "Litigation: Or, the Paradoxical Nature of Rights" "A Proposal Regarding AA's Future" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7847. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Some controversial material from Charlie Bishop From: Sober186@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2011 4:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Jim L. (Sober186) and Jon Markle Are the eBay charges true? Can this be demonstrated to be a fact? Need more details and more information to back up these charges. ==================================== MESSAGE #7844 Charlie Bishop is charging that "people attempting to sell items on e-Bay [are] being forced to remove these items by officials from the New York AA office because the words 'Alcoholics Anonymous' or 'AA' appear somewhere in the description of the product -- e.g. Ernie Kurtz's book Not-God being described as 'a book on Alcoholics Anonymous history.'" ==================================== From: Sober186@aol.com Charlie, are you sure that is a fact? Jim L. in Central Ohio - - - - From: Jon Markle (jon.markle at mac.com) Question: “ . . . being forced to remove these items by officials from the New York AA office . . . “ What exactly does that mean? In what way are these items being forcibly removed from E*Bay? And which “office” exactly, that is, what person or particular “office” of AA is doing this? Legal standing? Or “threats” of legal action? Or just what pressure is being made upon E*Bay to remove such items? Selling things on E*Bay by title of a book or manuscript is not against any law that I know of. It’s done all the time with all sorts of literature with no legal ramifications. So, I’d be very interested in how these items are being “forced” to be removed. Thanks. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7848. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Some controversial material from Charlie Bishop From: Stephen Gentile . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/24/2011 6:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA World Services does not seem to be CURRENTLY removing eBay items which are AA-related (as of October 2011) From Steve Gentile and Bryan Reid - - - - From: Stephen Gentile (sagentile at hotmail.com) History friends, this is absolutely Not true. I just logged into my account and can see dozens of sold books ranging from $5.00 to $595.00 and still more that completed the term but did not sell do to over pricing up to $4995.00 for first edition first print red covers. There are hundreds of used items from both early AA and those of late. Steve G From New Jersey - - - - From: "Bryan S. Reid" (humblephoenix at gmail.com) How could you sell a Big Book without using the words, or a 12+12? I just went on eBay and searched on "alcoholics anonymous." As of 5:01 pm EDT 2011.10.24, there are 4,591 items for sale with the words "alcoholics anonymous" in their subject line and description. Bless the program, Bryan IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7849. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Some controversial material from Charlie Bishop From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/24/2011 6:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA World Services was busy removing AA items from eBay in 2002-2006. From Dudley Dobinson and bikergaryg Dudley Dobinson says the attacks were applied (back then) to non-conference-approved literature only, and that AA World Services MAY no longer be employing this policy at the current time (October 2011) -- or at least, they can no longer keep up with the flood of items and ban everything, since lots of things seem to be getting through now. Charlie Bishop, Jr., says that back then, AAWS was trying to ban the sale of AA trinkets such as cigarette lighters with Dr. Bob's picture on it, but they were ALSO preventing the sale of non-conference-approved literature such as reprints of the famous 1842 book on the Washingtonians which influenced Bill W. so strongly in his writing of the traditions. - - - - From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com (DudleyDobinson at aol.com) As a collector of AA material I can confirm that this policy existed. It was selective in that it related to non-approved literature. From my personal contact with eBay sellers over recent years I know this to be true. However a search today revealed over 3700 items with Alcoholics Anonymous in the title or body of the listing. Many of these are definitely not conference approved, so the policy seems to have been abandoned. Please see link below for more detailed information. Dudley D. Birr, Ireland ========================================= THE AAWS - eBAY CONTROVERSY http://hindsfoot.org/bish1.pdf -- pages 12-14 Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, over the past two years, has removed hundreds, perhaps thousands, of books and other items for sale on eBay auctions because A.A.W.S. says the listings offer "counterfeit or unauthorized items that violate a trademark," namely the name "Alcoholics Anonymous" .... Thousands of A.A. members, archivists and collectors as well as scholars searched and found and bought thousands of books, articles, and other material by and about A.A. They all love A.A. history and these eBay auctions were one of their primary sources for finding it. Yes, trinkets were sold on the site. Everyone knows a lighter or a candle with a picture of Dr. Bob is not A.A.-Approved, what great harm is done? As an Antiquarian Bookseller-Appraiser specializing in the literature of Alcoholism and Alcoholics Anonymous for the past 30 years full time, I recently had several "Alcoholics Anonymous" literature items removed from my eBay auctions for the first time in my career. Over the past two years, I have received emails from others complaining about their advertised "AA" items for sale on eBay auctions also being removed. One gentleman had 50 items removed. A current GSO research report I requested revealed that from December, 2002, to September, 2005, a total of 735 items advertised as "Alcoholics Anonymous" auctions have been removed by AAWS under the eBay VeRO program. Here is the eBay email others and I have received: ------------------------------------------ "Dear Charles Bishop, **PLEASE READ THIS IMPORTANT EMAIL REGARDING YOUR LISTING(S)** We would like to let you know that we removed your listings: 4573581620 Alcoholics Anonymous: Washingtonians! 4573583256 Alcoholics Anonymous: Road Back history because an intellectual property rights owner notified us, under penalty of perjury, that your listing offers a counterfeit or unauthorized item that violates a trademark. If you relist this or any other similar items on eBay, your account likely will be suspended. For more information on the VeRO Program, please visit: http://pages.ebay.com/help/confidence/vero-removed-listing.html and http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/vero-aboutme.html (signed) eBay Inc." ------------------------------------------ Since "eBay is generally unable to determine whether a particular item on eBay is authorized or not, eBay established the VeRO Program in 1997 to enable intellectual property rights owners to easily report and request removal of listings offering items or containing materials that infringe their rights." The words "Alcoholics Anonymous, A.A.," are federally registered trademarks owned by A.A.W.S. They are intellectual property of Alcoholics Anonymous. In a letter from the law firm representing AAWS to a person who objected to having her eBay auction listing removed, it stated ------------------------------------------ "We represent A.A.W.S. with respect to trademark and copyright matters. We requested that your particular listing be removed because of the use of either, or both, ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS or AA in the title of the item. We requested removal because the use of those marks in the title suggests that AAWS sponsors, approves, etc., the item you listed. The item listed is not approved AAWS material." ------------------------------------------ Clearly, AAWS removes the items; not eBay. My first item removed was: "The Road Back: A Report on Alcoholics Anonymous by Joseph Kessel. First American Edition. 1962. 244pp. French journalist explores AA." It is not A.A.-Approved literature but the entire book is about AA and the title includes "Alcoholics Anonymous." For many years the easiest search category for literature by or about AA on eBay auctions was "Alcoholics Anonymous." Now the only items legally permitted in that category by AAWS are "A.A.-Approved publications." If I relist that item under the eBay category "Alcoholics Anonymous," I risk having my eBay account suspended. That's certainly a punitive action. When AAWS removed it and 3 other items, my description of the items disappeared entirely from eBay. My work was gone. That's punitive. I reprinted the The Washingtonian book of 1842 in 1992 and reprinted that twice more and have sold several hundred copies over the years to AA archivists and others. Milton Maxwell, a non-alcoholic A.A. Trustee, who wrote about the Washingtonians, read the book. Bill W., AA Co-founder, obviously talked with Maxwell about it and Bill took to heart the mistakes of the Washingtonians when he was writing the 12 Traditions. The Washingtonians were the subject of several AA Grapevine articles. Legally the book is not A.A.-Approved literature but it certainly is A.A. literature in the spiritual and practical realm. Bibliographies of AA include it and the book by Kessel mentioned above .... AAWS is using a very narrow, legal definition of what constitutes A.A. literature that excludes literally hundreds, indeed many thousands, of books and other works from being advertised in eBay auctions under the category "Alcoholics Anonymous." Consider: the number two best-selling book for AA members for many, many years was Twenty-Four Hours a Day, outsold only by the Big Book. AAWS could remove it from eBay auctions since it is not A.A.-Approved Literature. A signed 1941 letter about anonymity from Bill W. on his AA letterhead would not qualify for sale on eBay under "Alcoholics Anonymous." Nor would Ernest Kurtz's Not-God: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous. Nor would the 1941 Saturday Evening Post magazine article on A.A. that resulted in our membership jumping from 2,000 to 8,000 in a year or so. Nor would thousands of other items. In the extreme, AAWS could remove Alcoholics Anonymous, the facsimile 1985 reprint of the first edition of the Big Book, since it is not A.A.-Approved Literature (and would certainly risk a lawsuit!) .... Here is just one email from an A.A. member who was banned: ------------------------------------------ "A few years ago I was converting AA Talks from cassette to CD and listing them on eBay, using the "Alcoholics Anonymous" name because they were Alcoholics Anonymous talks. eBay, at the request of AAWS, banned me. Several people are doing exactly what I did and eBay (and AAWS) does nothing about it. The "crime" I committed is no longer against eBay rules. How many others have been banned from eBay by AAWS?" ------------------------------------------ (This article is also published online as http://alcoholicsanonymous.9f.com/spirituality.htm ) ========================================= From: bikergaryg@aol.com (bikergaryg at aol.com) How many thousands of dollars AA paid to lawyers to have the wording alcoholics anonymous remove from people reselling AA items on E-BAY! Right now there are over 4000 items on E-BAY. most of my collection was purchased on E-bay. Pete from palmer -- one of the best to purchase ole-books and pamphlets on E-bay -- he would put in a disclaimer on his items. Sadly Pete passed on but spent many hours on the phone with me explaining many of the old books, pamphlets and AA history. I am in the process of donating books to the Wilson House signed by Searcy, Mel-B, Bill-Swegen and a few others greats, all purchased on E-bay. I would never purchase new books and or pamphlets from E-bay, but where else does one find 1st editions? if you are coming to north jersey contact me, I enjoy going to stepping stones and AA office. Bikergaryg IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7850. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Some controversial material from Charlie Bishop From: Charles Bishop . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2011 11:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Down to late 2006/early 2007, many eBay sellers were having AA items removed from their eBay listings, with the threat that they would be permanently banned from eBay if AAWS (or AAWS's lawyers) ever felt moved to complain about their listings again. Hi to Jim L. (Sober186) and Jon Markle: Actually this article, "Spirituality versus Legalism in A.A.," was prompted by a number of AA members emailing me about the outrageous conduct of AAWS and their law firm kicking them off eBay (and banning some from further eBay membership to sell ) for listing and selling A.A. literature. Prior to 2006 when my article appeared I probably received a dozen or so complaints about this. I didn't save them all but my own experience is in the article on pages 12 through 14 and following. Here is one email I dug out of the literally hundreds of emails concerning the whole mess. ============================================== From: 'Russell Page' To: Lindquist, Leigh Ann Mon 2/23/2004 12:28 AM Dear Ms. Lindquist, Thank you for your prompt response. The particular item which your office had pulled was #3587702281. The description certainly does not state that AA endorses Dr. Fox's book. Only that early members read and profited by it. The title indicates Alcoholics Anonymous, simply so those seeking an AA related item can find it, not to erroneously imply affiliation. Perhaps a disclaimer in the description would satisfy our trusted servants. I would appreciate it if you could clarify for me just what is objectionable, and on what grounds. Constructive, workable guidelines would be welcomed by the community of AA members who list memorabilia relating to recovery from alcoholism as to specifically what runs afoul of your guidelines and what does not. For example, books written by Oxford Group authors are obviously not AAWS approved literature ... however it's safe to say that the fellowship, and AAWS for that matter would not exist as they do today without the precepts learned therefrom, and transmitted by Bill W. and Dr. Bob. We members of Alcoholics Anonymous are to have no opinion or position on them, however some have a problem when the two are mentioned in the same sentence. I certainly would not have known to search for the words "Oxford Group" in my first few years of recovery, but followed the trail blazed by Alcoholics Anonymous members who came before, that brought me to an awareness. Please remember the 10th tradition works both ways. Is it not a bit of a stretch for AAWS to become involved in censure on the aftermarket of the history of the fellowship? We history buffs are the folks doing the real 12th step service of passing on the history of the fellowship; and yes, Virginia, there is a price tag attached ... cause it has tremendous value. There are those in our number, who after years in the fellowship, still have a pathological need to control everything in sight. It's no surprise to me that such have the political acumen to rise to the top and get more and more removed from true sobriety. Ouch! I'm getting of my soap box now. Sorry, not quite yet. It is ultimately people like myself who ultimately pay your fee, and were certainly not advised of this seeming frivolous waste of time, funds and energy. (If you are doing this pro bono, both you and AAWS are in clear violation of the 7th Tradition). Unless and until I know more, I remain disappointed, but not surprised at the same people who have espoused that a meeting in cyberspace is the same as a face to face meeting. Must we continually lower our expectations to continue? Have you banned the bobble-head dolls as well? I'm cut to the quick. What's next ... medallions? Have a nice day, Russell J. Page ============================================== ============================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: Lindquist, Leigh Ann To: 'Russell Page' Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 11:05 AM Subject: RE: Gestapo tactics from AAWS Mr. Page, We represent Alcoholics Anonymous World Services with respect to trademark and copyright matters. We requested that your particular listing be removed because of the use of either, or both, ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS or AA in the title of the item. Both ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS and AA are federally registered trademarks owned by AAWS. We requested removal because the use of those marks in the title suggests that AAWS sponsors, approves, etc. the item you listed. The item listed is not approved AAWS material. However, I do not know the specific item you are referring to. Please provide the item no. if you want. Please contact me if you have any questions. Leigh Ann Lindquist Sughrue Mion, PLLC 2100 Pennsylvania Avenue NW Washington, DC 20037 202-663-7409 ============================================== CHARLIE CONTINUING: Hundreds of items were removed by this legal firm employed by AAWS or Michael Alexander and the Board of Trustees to "protect" the "property" of AA by kicking these items off eBay using the VeRO program eBay set up in 1997 to protect copyrights and trademarks, etc. My response to all this was my article. In 2006 the 18-page article was finished and I printed up over 150 copies and mailed them to EVERY DELEGATE to the General Service Conference of AA and to EVERY TRUSTEE, as well as the GSO Gen Mgr., the Grapevine editor, and other key AA personnel and my West Va. Area trusted servants. The printing and postage cost me several hundred dollars. I NEVER RECEIVED ONE SINGLE REPLY FROM ANY OF THOSE "TRUSTED SERVANTS." But, guess what, AAWS, the Trustees and that legal firm STOPPED kicking AA members off eBay ! Since late 2006, early 2007, I have not received any emails from AA members about being removed from eBay. You might talk to your Delegate to the GSConfrc. about all these issues. I'll email the article to any Delegate or AA member who wants it. Send an email to Charlie at bishopbk@comcast.net (bishopbk at comcast.net) Thanks, servus, keep trudging, Charlie B. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7851. . . . . . . . . . . . Marty Mann, Twice I Sought Death From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2011 2:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mrs. Marty Mann, c. 1952, speaking about God and the role of suffering in the spiritual life. A recording of her speaking can be listened to at http://thisibelieve.org/essay/16782/ (plus a transcript of her words). Marty Mann "Twice I Sought Death" I am an alcoholic -- one of the fortunate ones who found the road to recovery. That was thirteen years ago, but I haven't forgotten. I remember what it was like to be hopelessly in the grip of the vicious disease of alcoholism, not knowing what was wrong with me. I remember my desperate search for help. Failing to find it, I remember my inner despair -- my outer defiance. I remember the arrogance and pride with which I faced the non-understanding world, in spite of my terrible hidden fears -- my fear of life and my fear of death. At times I feared life so much more than death that twice I sought death. Suicide seemed a welcome release from a terror and agony past bearing. How grateful I am now that I didn't succeed. But I believed in nothing, then. Not in myself, nor in anything outside myself. I was walled in with my suffering -- alone and, I thought, forsaken. But I wasn't forsaken, of course. No one is, really. I seemed to suffer alone, but I believe now that I was never alone -- that none of us are. I believe, too, that I was never given more to bear than I could endure, but rather that my suffering was necessary, for me. I believe it may well have taken that much suffering, in my case, to break down my wall of self, to crush my arrogance and pride, to let me seek and accept the help that was there. For in the depths of my suffering I came to believe. To believe that there was a Power greater than myself that could help me. To believe that because of that Power -- God -- there was hope and help for me. I found my help through people -- doctors whose vocation it is to deal with suffering, and other human beings who had suffered like myself. In the depths of my personal abyss I received understanding and kindness and help from many individuals. People, I learned, can be very kind. I came to believe deeply in this -- in people and the good that is in them. I came to realize that suffering is universal. It lies behind much apparent harshness and irritability, many of the careless, even cruel, words and acts which make our daily lives difficult so much of the time. I learned that if I could understand this, I might not react so often with anger or hurt. And if I learned to react to difficult behavior with understanding and sympathy, I might help to bring about a change in that behavior. My suffering helped me to know things. I do not believe that everyone should suffer. But I do believe that suffering can be good, and even necessary, if -- and only if -- one learns to accept that suffering as part of one's essential learning process, and then to use it to help oneself and one's fellow sufferers. Don't we all endure suffering, one way or another? This fact gives me a deep sense of kinship with other people and a consequent desire to help others in any and every way I can. It is this belief that underlies my work, for alcoholism is the area in which I feel best fitted, through my own experience, to help others. And I believe that trying to help my fellow men is one of the straightest roads to spiritual growth. It is a road everyone can take. One doesn't have to be beautiful or gifted, or rich or powerful, in order to offer a helping hand to one's fellow sufferers. And I believe that one can walk with God by doing just that. Marty Mann was the first woman to join Alcoholics Anonymous. She founded the National Committee on Alcoholism in 1944, now known as the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence (NCADD). Born into a wealthy Chicago family, Mann worked as a magazine editor, art critic and photographer. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7852. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Some controversial material from Charlie Bishop From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2011 2:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is from Pete Lowery, a noted dealer in A.A. stuff. I started doing business with him in early 2005 and he had this disclaimer, or one very similar to it, then. It seems to me he is making a good point when he says that material not produced by the G.S.O. shouldn't be represented as being from A.A. That, to me at least, is different from A.A. literature, e.g., literature in use by A.A.s and A.A. groups. I have called Walker's 24 Hour Book and Webster's Little Red Book and Stools and Bottles "A.A. material" as they were written for A.A.s. ========================================== eBay Warning - Pete Lowery ***PLEASE NOTE ..if you are seeking ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS related memorabilia "not" actually published / printed / distributed / etc. by ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS it might be necessary to either search only under the word "alcoholics" or "check" search "titles and descriptions" box in order to get a larger selection of associated / related items / memorabilia / etc. to choose from as a law firm representing A.A. WORLD SERVICES at the request of AAWS has taken actions toward the infringement of the misuse of the Alcoholics Anonymous "words" used in the "Title" portion of items up for bid on e-bay by notifying e-bay of the violation of the misuse. Thus e-bay has had to take action against violators "reported" by having items / auction cancelled. This has been done along with a notification of "permanent suspension" by e-bay if further incidents / violations occur. Thus many have had to change their listings so they would "not" infringe on copyright / trademark / etc. laws. They have done this by "not" using the words Alcoholics Anonymous in the "title" portion of items which "are not" actually printed / published / distributed / etc by Alcoholics Anonymous. ***I CONCUR that many items currently and previously on e-bay should not have the name Alcoholics Anonymous associated with them as it does give appearance that Alcoholics Anonymous is affiliated with that item or endorsed by Alcoholics Anonymous (which they are not or have been). Example is that most members are aware that Alcoholics Anonymous "is not" in the belly button or tongue ring / token / bobblehead doll / teeshirt / baseball cap / etc. business nor is it "associated" with the "washingtonian temperance movement" or "The oxford group," a movement started by Frank Buchman (although early aa does have some historical ties to these outfits). Alcoholics Anonymous is not currently affiliated with any other "organization / etc." PLEASE read Tradition Six! So please use search "title and description" using keywords or just the word "alcoholics" for a larger selection of available items if you are interested in this type of memorabilia. ========================================== IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7853. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Marty Mann, Twice I Sought Death From: Norm The Tinman . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2011 5:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does everyone on here agree that Marty Mann was the first woman to join A A? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7854. . . . . . . . . . . . AA pioneers now on Wikipedia? From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2011 9:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Found this recently when doing some research on Jimmy Burwell: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Burwell Concerned not so much by anonymity break but the possibility that bad info and bad history gets posted as you can see no or few citations in the article. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7855. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Some controversial material from Charlie Bishop From: bigbookjoe . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/26/2011 2:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was also subject to the threat of permanent banishment from eBay for posting themed MP3 collections of AA speakers, and the posting had the statement that it was not approved, authorized or required by AAWS. I had four postings and all four were pulled with the threat. This was 2006. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7856. . . . . . . . . . . . John Zug and why the Washingtonian movement failed From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/26/2011 8:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Summary: Jared Lobdell argues here that one of the principal reasons for the decline of the Washingtonians was the premature death of the evangelist for the Washingtonians, John Zug (1818-1843), from tuberculosis. He was only around 25 years old at the time of his death. ============ Responding to a statement from Charlie Bishop: "I reprinted The Washingtonian book of 1842 in 1992 and reprinted that twice more and have sold several hundred copies over the years to AA archivists and others. Milton Maxwell, a non-alcoholic A.A. Trustee, who wrote about the Washingtonians, read the book. Bill W., AA Co-founder, obviously talked with Maxwell about it and Bill took to heart the mistakes of the Washingtonians when he was writing the 12 Traditions." (From AAHL Message #7849, quoting from Charlie on THE AAWS - eBAY CONTROVERSY, http://hindsfoot.org/bish1.pdf -- pages 12-14) ============ There is a connection between the 1842 book and Bill, but the proposed "obviously talked with Maxwell about it" linkage isn't strong. First of all, there's pretty good evidence Bill told Milton Maxwell about the Washingtonians, not the other way around. Secondly, Bill's knowledge came so far as we know from the first Grapevine article (1945) from a newsman out in Michigan, who got his information not from John Zug's little book but from a 1920s history of the Temperance Movement concentrating on the ATU. I'm glad Charlie reprinted Zug (I have a copy, and so should everyone interested in the Washingtonians -- and it's on Silkworth), and there's no doubt Bill used the Washingtonian experience as he reconstructed it as a warning for AA -- but I know of no evidence that Bill was directly and personally acquainted with Zug's book at the time the Traditions were written, (nor, of course, does Charlie directly say he was, though he implies a closer connection than I think exists) -- and indeed some of Bill's reconstruction isn't in accord with the book. Btw, my own conviction, as an historian, is that one of the principal reasons for the decline of the Washingtonians was the premature death of the evangelist for the Washingtonians, John Zug (1818-1843), from tuberculosis, and the accession of John H W Hawkins (1797-1858) as an evangelist for Temperance (albeit under the Washingtonian name) -- so much so that Hawkins was sometimes considered one of the six founders (replacing actual founder George Steers who had died in 1842). Being located in Central Pennsylvania, I'm taking advantage of my location and working on a book on Zug (a graduate of Dickinson College and the Dickinson Law School -- some of his papers are at Dickinson -- in Carlisle across the river from me in Cumberland County) and have been trying to direct local scholarly attention to Hawkins and find and mark his grave (supposedly in the Episcopal cemetery at Pequea Church, near Gap, in Lancaster County, though the other end from where I live). I think as historians those of us working in the field of what used to be called alcohol and temperance history may be overlooking a lot of the actual history of the Washingtonians. But it's a fair question to ask, whether as aahistorylovers we pretty much should be overlooking this actual history because as far as AA is concerned it's a side issue at best. Whether Bill ever read Zug I can't say: I think in the end he may have. In any case, when the Chaplain at High Watch Farm moved on in the late 1960s (when Bill was still around there), he was presented with a copy of Jerome Murray's Reminiscences of an Ex-Inebriate (Toledo 1879), of which Chapter II quotes long passages from Zug and talks about the failure of the Washingtonians. Bill's hand might have been in this choice of present, though I can't say for sure. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7857. . . . . . . . . . . . Posts on Felicia G. and other early AA women From: trysh travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/26/2011 3:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At Points: the Blog of the Alcohol and Drugs History Society today, Amanda Smith, author of *Newspaper Titan* has a post about Felicia G. and how she came into the program. This will be followed by additional posts on women in early AA on Friday of this week, and Tuesday next. Trysh Travis http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/ - - - - "Stars Don't Fall": Felicia G., Marty Mann, and Other Women of the Early Alcoholics Anonymous Movement, Part I by Amanda Smith October 26, 2011 Editor's Note: We're pleased to bring Points readers a short series of posts from Amanda Smith, author of the recently-released Newspaper Titan: The Infamous Life and Monumental Times of Cissy Patterson (Knopf, 2011). This historical exploration of the life of famed newspaper editor Cissy Patterson has earned Amanda plenty of positive press of her own (see, for example, Richard Norton Smith's review in the Weekly Standard, here). Newspaper Titan touches upon the drinking life of Patterson's daughter Felicia, who then encountered Alcoholics Anonymous in 1943. In this three-part series, Amanda focuses more directly on Felicia's story; Part I, below, follows the road to her initial encounter with Bill W. In 1943, at the age of thirty-eight, Countess Felicia Gizycka "divorced" her mother, the notorious Washington, DC, newspaper publisher and Chicago Tribune heiress, Cissy Patterson. Falling into old habits on that decisive wartime evening during one of Felicia's rare visits home, mother and daughter left the dinner table "in the middle of the night, both of us drunk as skunks," to continue drinking and bickering in the living room. When Cissy began toying with Felicia by proposing to favor others in her will, and taunting her daughter for her personal failings as she had done many times over the years, Felicia finally exploded. "God damn you and may you roast in Hell. If there is a Hell. You've already made my life one long Hell from the time I was a baby, you stupid bitch! . . . And you can take all your Goddamn fucking money and stuff it!" Felicia had lived in luxury up to that point, but in other regards her life had not been an easy one. As a toddler, she had become a pawn in the sensational international custody battle that followed the violent end of her parents' marriage in 1908. Her father, a volatile, hard-drinking Polish aristocrat, kidnapped her and held her for ransom when she was two; only after President Taft and Tsar Nicholas II of Russia intervened did Count Gizycki finally return Felicia, then almost four, to her mother. Although Cissy had fought hard to bring her child safely home to the United States, she was a critical, unpredictable mother. One particularly nasty mother-daughter "knock-down drag-out fight, which included hair pulling and clothing tearing" persuaded Felicia to run away from home in 1924, at the age of eighteen. To outward appearances, Felicia and Cissy reconciled six months later, but only after Felicia allowed herself to be corralled into a loveless marriage she hoped would end her mother's authority over her. But marriage and motherhood held little interest for her, particularly after she began to realize her dreams of becoming a writer — and discovered, at the height of Prohibition, that "if I had a drink or two, I could relax and dance, laugh, joke. And feel popular. Feel accepted." Following her first divorce, a failed love affair prompted Felicia to "get dead drunk that very night, and stay drunk for a month." Instead, the binge would last a decade. "I think I had the physical allergy right away," she reflected later of the growing reliance on alcohol she developed over the course of the 1920s and ‘30s. "A drink never gave me a normal, pleasant glow. Instead it was like a tap on the head with a small mallet. I was a little bit knocked out. Just what I wanted. I lost my shyness. Five or six drinks and I was terrific. Men danced with me at parties. I was full of careless chatter. I was so amusing! I had friends." The opulent, heedless way of life Felicia led throughout the Depression (along with the substantial, tax-free allowance from Cissy that supported it) came to a tumultuous end when she and her mother had that "one last drunken row" in 1943. When Felicia staggered out of Cissy's home for the last time that night, she was conscious only that a strange, white patch of welts had arisen on her left arm ("the stigmata of the Devil?") and that she was reliving "the same feelings I had had when I'd run away when I was eighteen." After a lifetime's experience of maternal volatility and spite, any regret at what she had done or fear of what might result evaporated in elation and relief: "Now I was 38 years old, and free! Free!" Felicia's growing alcohol consumption soon made a hollow victory of her newfound freedom, however. She lost partial custody of her daughter. Most of her friends fell away, alienated and confused by her immoderation, her unreliability, her raucous "naughtiness" and hilarity on inappropriate occasions, and her general disregard for those around her. Her "drunken and abusive rows" with fellow volunteers cut short her work for the war effort. Eventually, drinking consumed even her productive, daytime writing hours. "Now came the black and endless dismal night," as Felicia remembered it. But in spite of everything, she had managed to retain one source of support. "My dearest friend, whom I'd grown up with, stuck by me when nobody else did. Louise Ireland almost helped to save my life, because she got me to a psychiatrist…." In the course of Louise Ireland's studies in child psychology and education she had come into contact with Dr. Florence Powdermaker, with whom she co-authored The Intelligent Parents' Manual, "a practical guide to the care and understanding of children from infancy to adolescence," in 1944. A former Rockefeller Fellow and medical professor, who was currently serving as a Lieutenant-Commander in charge of merchant seamen suffering from post-traumatic stress (or, in the contemporary phraseology, "war neuroses") for the United States Public Health Service, Dr. Powdermaker continued to take private patients as well. "At first nothing happened," Felicia remembered. "I went to her once a week, and I was either terribly hungover or a little tight." Although Felicia would never be certain, she believed she must have dissipated the small nest egg she had set aside on drink. "Fat, bloated, dirty and unkempt," Felicia passed out routinely, awakening the following morning to discover that her pockets had been picked by the cab drivers who (she presumed) had delivered her home. In this state, her work with Dr. Powdermaker proceeded haltingly at best; "the more we found out about why I drank, the more I drank." After a burly Irish barkeep caught Felicia trying to steal a bottle from behind his bar, knocked her to the sawdust with an elbow to the face, and threatened to call the police, Felicia began to contemplate suicide. "I felt abysmally ashamed—as far as humiliation goes, I think I hit bottom. How could I behave like this? I was crazy and Florence didn't want to tell me so." In 1943, after hearing William Griffith Wilson, or "Bill W.," speak from personal experience on the almost entirely medically uncharted subjects of alcoholism and recovery, Dr. Powdermaker had been "instantly sold" on the course he suggested. She urged Felicia to read the unobtrusive navy blue volume that Bill Wilson's burgeoning fellowship had published in 1939 as Alcoholics Anonymous. The compendium of unsigned personal accounts, both harrowing and moving, was intended to "show other alcoholics precisely how we have recovered." Although Felicia balked at the "Big Book's" exhortation to surrender to a higher power as a critical step along the path to recovery (or "all the God stuff," as she put it), almost to humor Dr. Powdermaker she agreed to attend one of the group's meetings. Mortified, she ventured down to Hell's Kitchen where the organization's offices were located at the time. "Bill was tall, grey haired, with the kind of asymmetrical good looks and pleasant easy manner that inspire confidence in the shaken and afraid," Felicia was relieved to discover. "He was well dressed; he was easy going. I could see he wasn't a quack or a fanatic. He did not take out a folder or a questionnaire and say, 'What is the nature of your problem?' he said to me, gently and simply, 'Do you think that you are one of us?' Never in my entire life had anyone asked me 'are you one of us?' Never had I felt a sense of belonging. I found myself nodding my head. He now said that we had a physical allergy combined with a mental obsession, and he explained this so that I saw for the first time how this could be. He asked me if I had any spiritual belief, and when I said No, he suggested that I keep an open mind." "I've got a dame here with a name I can't pronounce," he told someone whose number he dialed on Felicia's behalf at the end of the meeting. When he hung up, he told her he had arranged for her to meet someone named Marty. "Aha, he's passing the buck," Felicia suspected inwardly. "Now comes the questionnaire." Editor's Note: Amanda Smith's next post, on Felicia's friendship with Marty Mann, will appear on Friday, 28 Oct. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7858. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Some controversial material from Charlie Bishop From: Sober186@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2011 10:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have e-mailed AAWS asking exactly what actions were taken on these matters, and specifically who gave any individual or law firm authority to act on behalf of AAWS or world services. I believe the membership should be able to see any such documentation and that conference action would be necessary to authorize such activity before A.A. actually did anything except what might be called routine procedures to protect or control material owned by AAWS. We live in a world where copyrights are often ignored. Copyright laws are unknown to the general population. Therefore people duplicate copyrighted material, sell it at a profit and think it is their right to do so. Or they sell the material as if it were theirs. Again no one doing that kind of selling believes it is wrong. In all honesty, I "have a dog in the fight" because I am researching a book and plan to use a revised version of the 12 Steps as part of a system to help people recover from a different malady .... As one who gets paid to write for news wire services, it is somewhat infuriating when I have worked weeks to develop a story, publish it, and then see some other person or service copy some of what I have written and sell it to the public or clients for a profit as if they had done the work themselves. That is not fair and not legal .... By the way, it is my belief that "leads" such as those given by people at AA meetings, are the property of the person who prepares or delivers them. That means such leads should not be recorded and sold for a profit without the written permission of the individual giving the lead. That is often violated. I have seen leads of a number of celebrates for sale. That is not only a violation of their anonymity, but also a copyright infringement .... IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7859. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA pioneers now on Wikipedia? From: Bryan S. Reid . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/26/2011 4:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am a very regular user and subscriber to Wikipedia. If someone would establish their bona fides with Wikipedia as a AA historian, they could easily move to an editorial role on AA and AA-related subjects. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:About#Editorial_quality_review http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Cleanup_Taskforce http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Cleanup_Taskforce/Members I think that given the historical problems that we have had, as well as cult accusations and the like, that this would be a very good idea. The last link shows how to get started in the process. The one thing that I can say with absolute certainty is that I am probably the least qualified here to be in such a role. Serene love, Bryan IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7860. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Marty Mann, Twice I Sought Death From: Jay Pees . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/26/2011 3:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On Tue, Oct 25, 2011, Norm The Tinman (normtinman at yahoo.com) wrote: Does everyone on here agree that Marty Mann was the first woman to join AA? - - - - From Jay Pees (racewayjay at gmail.com) No, she was not the first. - - - - From GC the moderator: our two most recent attempts to put together a list of the earliest women in AA can be found in the two following messages. There has never, to the best of my memory, been any complete agreement among our top AA historians about who belongs on this list in exactly what order. The two lists below give us a good example. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7696 1. Jane Sturdevant - Feb 1937 - The Amos List 2. Florence Rankin - Sept 1937 - GSO Pioneer Questionnaire, Bill W. Correspondence 3. Edith Scott - Jan 1938 - The Amos List 4. Hazel Cloos - March 1939 - The NJ Survey 5. Marty Mann - April 11, 1939 6. Sylvia Kauffman - September 13, 1939 - DBGO 7. Helen Penhale - September 1939-NJ Survey Jan 1, 1940 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7809 1. Lil 1st woman to seek A.A. help. She was involved in the first 13th step with with a man named 'Victor'. She later got sober outside A.A. (Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers 97-98,109,241) 2. Florence Rankin 1st woman to become sober in A.A. Her story "A Feminine Victory" was in the first edition. She relapsed and reportedly took her own life (can someone confirm the suicide?). [Message #7827: Washington DC Intergroup has a copy of Florence's death certificate. It does NOT state that her death was a result of suicide. I believe cause of death was stated as some form of meningitis.] 3. Sylvia Kauffman 1st woman to achieve permanent long term sobriety. DOS: Sep 13, 1939 Remained sober until her death on Oct 31, 1974 4. Mary C. A close second. She was sober in early 1939 (before Marty showed up in April and before Sylvia showed up in September). Relapsed in 1944 and then stayed sober until her death in the 1990s 5. Marty Mann Nearly first. Showed up in April 1939. Relapsed. Became one of the first A.A. women achieve lasting sobriety DOS: Dec 25, 1940 Her story "Women Suffer Too" is in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th editions. Founded National Committee Education Alcoholism (NCEA) October 2 1944. Reportedly relapsed in 1960 (can someone confirm this?). However, she was clearly sober by 1970 when she became involved with the Comprehensive Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism Prevention, Treatment and Rehabilitation Act of 1970 (which allocated Federal dollars for the treatment of alcoholism, treatment centers sprang up everywhere) [Known as the Hughes Act, see http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html ] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7861. . . . . . . . . . . . The 1938 Amos List -- Dr. Bob''s list of early AA members From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/29/2011 6:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII THE 1938 AMOS LIST -- from John Barton (jax760 at yahoo.com) John Barton has recently discovered a copy of this important document, which contains the names and sobriety dates of the earliest A.A. members. It is Dr. Bob's handwritten list of current members, drawn up by him in February of 1938 and provided to Frank Amos. http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html -- two thirds of the way down This roster was referenced and attached to the February 23, 1938 "Notes on Akron, Ohio, Survey" by Frank Amos and was provided under cover letter by Willard Richardson to John D. Rockefeller dated February 23, 1938. John B. has sent us (and we have posted here): (1) a photocopy of the original handwritten manuscript http://hindsfoot.org/amoslist.html (2) and also his own typewritten transcript of the document. http://hindsfoot.org/amostype.pdf _____________________________________ THE AKRON 226 LIST: First 226 Members of the Akron Ohio AA Group -- Another important early AA list list of early members, this one made during the 1940's -- the first 226 members of the A.A. group in Akron, Ohio, including people who later went on to found A.A. groups in other places, like Chicago, Detroit, and Indiana -- contributed by Tommy H. of Danville, Kentucky -- http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226b.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7862. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First woman to join AA From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/28/2011 1:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Norm (normtinman at yahoo.com) said: "Does everyone on here agree that Marty Mann was the first woman to join A A?" - - - - Hi Norm, I do not agree. Referring to Dr. Bob's handwritten list of members given to Frank Amos in February of 1938 http://hindsfoot.org/amoslist.html http://hindsfoot.org/amostype.pdf we have the first recorded instance of any woman to achieve sobriety. Her name was Jane Sturdevant and she is listed by Dr. Bob with 12 months of sobriety dating her entrance into AA in February of 37. You can read about her in DBGO. The second woman was Florence Rankin. She came into AA in September of 1937. There are letters and questionnaires located in the GSO archives that attest to this. In her Big Book Story she indicates she has not been tempted for the past year which might suggest she had at least one year of continuous sobriety at that time. The amusing story of Victor and Lil is just that. DBGO indicates "Lil" never even attended a meeting so I don't see how she could ever be considered a member or first woman to join. Whether or not she sobered up later by some other means is not relevant for our task. I would be happy if anyone can produce any documentation that was recorded before April 10, 1939 to support anything other than these conclusions. Marty was a wonderful woman and I leave it to all of you to decide whether she or Sylvia had the most continuous sobriety as it appears that neither Jane or Florence stayed sober in the end. We know the details of Florence's death and Jane's name is conspicuously absent from the Cleveland 220 List. - - - - NOTE FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR: The Washington D.C. AA history debunks the later legend that Florence committed suicide. She died after a two-day stay at Gallenger Municipal Hospital (DC General Hospital); the death certificate they issued says that she died on April 19, 1943 at the age of 47 of pneumococcal meningitis. Florence was in some sort of contact with the AA program in 1939 and 1940, but there is no way of telling whether she was or was not staying sober after the Fall of 1939, and from what little we know, her life seems likely to have gone on the skids there at the end. Nevertheless, we cannot tell for sure whether she was or was not sober during the very last part of her life. For details, see pages 18-20 of the history of AA in Washington, D.C. at http://www.aa-dc.org/sites/default/files/Wash-Book-21Oct2008_0.pdf Also see http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7827 from "Michael Margetis" (mfmargetis at yahoo.com) Washington DC Intergroup has a copy of Florence's death certificate. It does NOT state that her death was a result of suicide. I believe cause of death was stated as some form of meningitis. Here is a link to a document about early AA in the DC area: http://www.aa-dc.org/sites/default/files/Wash-Book-21Oct2008_0.pdf (see pages 18-20) Hope this helps. Mike Margetis Brunswick, Maryland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7863. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob''s address in the Akron 226 List From: Joseph Nugent . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/29/2011 6:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the Akron 226 List at http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226.doc it gives Dr. Bob's address as: "Smith, Dr. R.H. 855 Ardmere, Akron, O." Shouldn't this be Ardmore with an O instead of an E? Joe IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7864. . . . . . . . . . . . Marty Mann''s sobriety date From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/29/2011 11:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sally Brown and David R. Brown, A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous (Center City, Minnesota: Hazelden, 2001) -- http://www.sallyanddavidbrown.com/ Page 136 "Because of her three early relapses, Marty preferred not to set a specific date for the beginning of her long-term sobriety. The closest she would say was the general time frame -- Christmas 1940. In fact, though Marty openly described her three early relapses, she apparently much preferred to emphasize what she considered the date of her beginning recovery from alcoholism -- April 11, 1939 -- the day of her first AA meeting." Pages 261-262 On one of her many visits to Texas, Marty "should have heard the stories about Sam Houston, the revered liberator of Texas, and especially about his alcoholism .... for the last twenty-three years of his life, this hero of Texas history said he controlled his excesses by sipping only Angostura Bitters." But in fact "bitters contain 45 percent alcohol, approximately the same as 90-proof whiskey." "Marty ... relapsed briefly on alcohol sometime between 1959 and 1964, probably closer to 1960 than later. It began with her drinking bitters. Marty, of all well-informed alcoholics, conned herself into thinking she could get away with a small amount of alcohol without having it constitute that dangerous first drink." "At that time, a young AA woman with about a year of sobriety [who] lived in Bronxville .... had heard a great deal about Marty and longed to meet her idol .... When she arrived unannounced at Marty and Priscilla's apartment, she was shocked to find Marty drunk, the place a mess, the dogs needing attention. Not knowing what else to do, the AA visitor cleaned up the apartment as best she could, loaded Marty and the dogs into her station wagon, and took them all back home with her." "Confused and upset, the young woman phoned Bonnie R., a Bronxville AA friend with nearly ten years of sobriety, and tearfully asked her advice. Bonnie assured her she'd done the right thing and advised her to keep Marty there until she'd detoxed. So Marty and the dogs stayed with their rescuer for several days. Marty ... finally was able to return to the New York apartment." "By October 13, 1964, Dr. Ruth Fox had written Marty a prescription for Antabuse ...." Others who knew of Marty's relapse: Lila Rosenblum and Ernest Kurtz. ________________________________________ THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF GOOD HISTORICAL METHODOLOGY Sally and David Brown provide us with a really fine model of good historical writing here. When I was a young man, I worked for a while as a newspaper reporter. Good newspapers in those days were well aware that, with any famous person, you would have characters regularly crawling out of the woodwork, claiming to have information about something really scandalous that this famous person had done. If you tried to check out their stories -- "I was Mother Teresa's love child," or "the Dalai Lama and I were great buddies and used to get drunk together on chhaang beer at one of the bars in Lhasa and get in snowball fights with the yetis outside," or whatever the tall tale was -- they nearly always, close to one hundred percent of the time, turned out on careful investigation to be nonsense. So the rule on good newspapers (back in those days) was that you absolutely did not print scandalous claims about public figures unless you could obtain double corroboration at the very least. Washington Post reporters Woodward and Bernstein began printing their expose of the Watergate scandal as soon as they obtained a second witness (in addition to their first witness whom they called "Deep Throat") to give them double corroboration. Extremely careful reporters would often try for quadruple or sextuple corroboration before printing a story. Under the law in some English speaking countries, double hearsay can sometimes be enough to convict someone of a crime (hearsay evidence, but given more serious attention because doubly corroborated), but even then if and only if there is also, for example, further "corroboration of innocent details" to back those two witnesses up. ________________________________________ So before writing about Marty Mann's relapse c. 1960, Sally and David Brown painstakingly turned up two direct witnesses, plus a third supporting witness in the form of Ernie Kurtz's observation that Marty refused to deny that charge, plus a dated prescription for Antabuse which did not prove that Marty had been drinking, but did prove that she had at the very least been extremely worried about relapsing. ________________________________________ When I was researching both Father Ralph Pfau and Richmond Walker, I was fed malicious rumors about both men, all of which I investigated and was able to totally refute. But it certainly left me feeling a little nauseated that AA people whose lives had been saved by the program would resort to this kind of truly malicious rumor mongering. There is one extremely major figure in AA history who has been victimized by a series of rumors, all of them (except one) based only upon the claim of one single self-claimed witness apiece, where no one has ever come up with even one corroborating voice to support any of these claims (except that one instance). And this stuff is passed off as genuine history writing nowadays. As a cynical old newspaper reporter (and an even more cynical old professional historian), you can't write real "history" based upon collecting and publishing the fantasies and malicious gossip of cranks and nuts. That was what happened in the sixteenth century histories where Protestant historians claimed that there was once a woman pope named Pope Joan, and that this was why the cardinals had to strip naked when they voted on a new pope, so everyone could make sure that none of them were women. And then the Catholic historians responded by claiming that Martin Luther only started the Protestant Reformation because he was a glutton and a pervert who wanted to eat like a pig and have sex with nuns. As AA historians we are called instead to practice a historiography based upon the highest ideals of modern scientific history writing, including the highest and most rigorous standards of proof. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7865. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The first woman to join AA From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/27/2011 5:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII SOME PROBLEMS WITH JANE S's CLAIM Marty may have been the first woman to join something called Alcoholics Anonymous, though Florence R was a member of the fellowship earlier than Marty. Jane S and Edith S were "members" in Akron even earlier, but not of Alcoholics Anonymous (though it became A.A.). It is possible that the first woman to join something called A.A. was Hazel Glidden C., on the Jersey list, but I'll need to do more research on Hazel before I could say she "joined" in any real sense. Jane S (from Cleveland) came regularly to the OG meetings in Akron but there is no indication she ever attended A.A. meetings in Cleveland. - - - - Message 3169 from "Mitchell K." (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3169 The name Jane S. does not appear in any of the early Cleveland archival materials or dozens of meeting rosters or histories of all the original groups compiled by Norm E., the recording statistician from the Cleveland Central Committee in the early 1940's. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7866. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: who was the first woman to join AA? From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/29/2011 11:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The question asked was "who was the first woman to join AA?" Why does it matter? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7867. . . . . . . . . . . . The A.A. historian''s F word equals the most posts ever on the AAHL site From: robtwoodson . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2011 1:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Fellow AAHistoryLovers, Upon recently visiting the site I found the following piece of information. I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed the fact that, apparently as with AA itself, controversy has never hurt us. There are a total of 147 messages so far posted for the month of October 2011. That is by far the most ever posted for any month on the site, and only half way into the month. I made a grab from the pdf included in Dov's post of William White's "Confessions of an AA History Buff" http://www.facesandvoicesofrecovery.org/pdf/White/Confession_of_an_AA_Histor y_Bu\ ff.pdf [30] It contained what I considered to be a very apropo quote. On pages 1 and 2, an axiomatic quote from Former GSO Archivist Frank Mauser appears; it concerns the "AA Historian's version of the F. Word." "Are there individuals who have guided you through the promises and pitfalls of your historical investigations? There have been many. Frank M., then archivist at A.A.'s General Service Office in New York, was my first contact. His encouragement was decisive in my continuation to explore. He provided redirection and focus to my work when I was consumed with 'who did it first.' I wanted to know if the first A.A. meeting was between Bill and Bob, or Ebby and Bill, or Rowland and Ebby." "Noting my disturbance Frank asked if I knew what the 'F' word was among A.A. historians. I said 'NO.' He said, "It is First." Congratulations AAHL...and thank you Glenn for a yeoman's bit of work! If applicable, keep your powder dry and be good guys and girls all, Woody in Akron IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7868. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob''s address in the Akron 226 List From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/29/2011 11:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 18:34 10/29/2011, Joseph Nugent wrote: >In the Akron 226 List at >http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226.doc >it gives Dr. Bob's address as: > >"Smith, Dr. R.H. 855 Ardmere, Akron, O." > >Shouldn't this be Ardmore with an O instead of an E? ________________________________________ It was a typo in the original and transcribed as written. Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7869. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First woman to join AA From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/30/2011 12:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Everybody - As far as Dave and I know from our extensive research into Marty's life and career, her first 18 months in AA are recounted in Ch 14 "The Learning Curve Steepens" of A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann -- the First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous. Sylvia got sober in 1939, about 6 months after Marty. However, in Ch 14 we report on Marty's 3 relapses between Xmas 1939 and Xmas 1940. And in Ch 25 "Leo Redux," we report our carefully-documented account of Marty's very little-known 4th relapse around 1960. So unless contrary evidence ever turns up, Sylvia should certainly be credited as the first woman to achieve permanent sobriety in AA. This means 2 lists for women, as it does for men: (1) Arrival in AA, (2) Current/Continuous Alcohol/Drug Sobriety Date. Sometimes, as we know, some people manage to stay clean and sober for one or more years before they come to AA. And sadly, as we also know, arrival in AA does not guarantee instant, or even permanent sobriety. What becomes centrally important in sobriety, is what we do with it. And in my opinion, that is truly Marty's legacy. Her founding and leadership of NCADD for 40 years, and her participation in AA, critically transformed not only AA's gendership and numbers, but the whole country's attitudes toward addiction. Thank you all for identifying the AA pioneers who so bravely showed succeeding generations the way to a new life. I thank them with all my heart. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7870. . . . . . . . . . . . Typo in White''s Confessions of an AA History Buff From: aa061035 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/30/2011 1:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Gotta be a typo: "So the date was actually June 17, 1939." On page 4 of White's "Confessions of an AA History Buff," which was cited in Message #7867: http://www.facesandvoicesofrecovery.org/pdf/White/Confession_of_an_AA_Histor y_Bu\ ff.pdf [30] it says: "So the date was actually June 17, 1939." Giving the year as "1939" must be a typographical error. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7871. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob''s address in the Akron 226 List From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/30/2011 7:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There are lots of "typos" on this list - both names and addresses. ========== From: Joseph Nugent In the Akron 226 List it gives Dr. Bob's address as "855 Ardmere" with an E instead of an O. ========== FROM THE MODERATOR: John means TYPOS ON THE ORIGINAL LIST. Tommy Hickcox, in his typed copy at http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226.doc has faithfully copied the list exactly as it was originally written, typographical errors and all, which is what is needed for research purposes. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7872. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Properly identifying Jim who put whiskey into milk From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/30/2011 12:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would like to suggest that "Jim" (Big Book pages 35-37) was quite likely Harlan Spencer. Harlan was an automobile salesman age 45 with 10 years of drinking experience according to Dr Bob's handwritten list. Fits the profile that Jim did no drinking until age 35. See Dr. Bob's list = the Amos List = http://hindsfoot.org/amostype.pdf and http://hindsfoot.org/amoslist.html Many have tried to identify "Jim" on pages 35-37 of the Big Book with the author of the story "Another Prodigal Story" in the first edition of the Big Book See http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm This person was a stationary store owner in Springfield Mass. named ROBERT Furlong. One may find his first name given as "Ralph" (Ginnie McL) or "Roy" (Jimmy B.), but both of these are incorrect. Robert Furlong was a shareholder in Works Publishing, and he exchanged letters with Bill W and Ruth Hock in Feb 1941 which are in the GSO archives. In the letters he is identified as Bob F. I believe Western Mass archives also has these letters. Jared is currently trying to track down Harlan's "commendable war record" but it is proving to be elusive. God Bless John B ______________________________________ From: royslev Sent: Sat, January 16, 2010 Subject: Properly identifying Jim who put whiskey into milk It seems standard to identify "a friend we shall call Jim" in pages 35-37 of the Big Book (in Chapter 3 "More About Alcoholism") with Ralph Furlong, whose story "Another Prodigal Story" appeared in the first edition of the Big Book. But the only link I can see between those two figures is that in "Another Prodigal Story" the protagonist drinks an ice cream soda AFTER drinking heavily simply in order to cover up the smell of the booze on his breath, while Jim in "More About Alcoholism" thinks that if he mixes whiskey in milk, he can drink that mixture without getting drunk. That is not the same thing at all. That certainly does not mean that these two are the same person. Chapter 3 "More About Alcoholism" says that Jim had "inherited a lucrative automobile agency," lost it through his drinking, but then got sober for a while, and "began to work as a salesman for the business he had lost through drinking" (Big Book p. 35). "Another Prodigal Story" http://silkworth. net/bbstories/ 357.html says nothing about the author ever owning an automobile agency, losing it, having to go back to work there as a salesman, getting sober in AA, or having a slip and being committed back to the asylum once again. How could this be the same person? I have checked with several good AA historians -- Lee C., Mel B., Dick B., Ray G. -- and none of them know of any other evidence which could be cited which would link "Jim" in Chapter 3 of the Big Book with the person who wrote the story "Another Prodigal Story." And while we are at it, why is the author of "Another Prodigal Story" identified as Ralph Furlong? What is the evidence for that identification? Both in my own research, and in talking with some good AA historians and archivists, I have not yet discovered any reasons for identifying "Jim" on pp. 35-37 of the Big Book with the author of "Another Prodigal Story," nor have I discovered any reasons why either of these people should be identified as a man named Ralph Furlong. Can anybody come up with any evidence in support of any of these identifications? Thanks for your responses. Roy L. ( class of '78 ) - - - - From G.C. the moderator: This same question has been asked before, although not nearly as clearly as you have done it, see Message 2187, date: Sat Feb 12, 2005, from (lghforum at earthlink.net) http://health. groups.yahoo. com/group/ AAHistoryLovers/ message/2187 "But how can you tell that Ralph F. is the 'Jim' who thinks 'he could take whiskey if only he mixed it with milk!' on page 37 of the BB 3rd Edition?" Nobody answered the question when it was asked back there in 2005, and now Roy L. has asked it again, so this question is still crying out for an answer. The answer may be simple, but what is it? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7873. . . . . . . . . . . . Catholic''s problem with O.G. and Cleveland leaving Alcoholic Squad of O.G. From: shakey . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/31/2011 10:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The best description I have read on the Catholic members of the O.G.problems with O.G. begins on page 33 of Sister Ignatia: Angel of Alcoholics Anonymous. There may have been an isolated Catholic, here or there at that time. The majority of Cleveland members were Catholic and when they sobered up with the Alcoholic Squad of the Oxford Group their parish priest found out and they were told that their "faith did not permit active participation in religious denominations outside the Catholic tradition." The priest "forbade the men to return because of the group's suspected Protestant overtones." Dr.Bob finally "acknowledged that although religion was often the by-product of surrendered alcoholism, it could not be the primary inducement to AA membership. Sobriety, not religion, was the Alcoholics Squadron's long term goal." pg35 S.I. The Clevelander's and Clarence S and Bill's New York AA's had left the O.G. and finally Doc Smith and Akron left T.Henry's and met at Dr. Bob's home. The Akron squad soon after traveled to Cleveland and made meetings there as a "show of Unity." Thus Traditions one, five and ten: We had Unity, no religion,but a lot of spirituality, and eliminated religious controversy at the public level. Hospitals could accept us without religious segregation. We did not have the fallout over Buchman's comments to the press.We grew up. We made up after a long nasty fight and many sleepless nights for Dr. Bob. We became AA. We walked on our own feet. Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Hardcore AA Group Eddystone, PA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7874. . . . . . . . . . . . History of AA cooperation with Corrections and Treatment From: Jim . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/31/2011 1:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What is the AA history on the development of cooperation with the correctional and treatment institutions? Who started it, where did it originate from, what was the early guidelines???? Thanks Jim M 10111998 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7875. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Properly identifying Jim who put whiskey into milk From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/31/2011 8:09:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Not ROBERT F[------] but ROLAND ARTHUR F[------] 1882-1946, called BOB, from Springfield MA (about 150 miles from NYC). RALPH F[------] 1891-1966 of Pittsfield MA (also about 150 miles from NYC) was presumably also a member, but as the author of the story had a daughter whose birthday was in June and while I don't know in what month Bob's daughters Alice and Ethel were born, I do know Ralph's daughter Eloise was b. in February 1911. So apparently Ginny had the wrong person and Jimmy had the wrong first name (for either person) -- but it's interesting he had "Roy" for "Roland" since one of Rowland H's nicknames was Roy. There's a brief note on the Ralph/Roland business (but without the crucial information on Ralph's daughter's birth month) in CULTURE ALCOHOL & SOCIETY QUARTERLY (Vol 4 no. 3), pp. 3-7, online at Brown University Library, Kirk Collection, CASQ. > From: jax760@yahoo.com > Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 > Subject: Re: Properly identifying Jim who put whiskey into milk I would like to suggest that "Jim" (Big Book pages 35-37) was quite likely Harlan Spencer. Harlan was an automobile salesman age 45 with 10 years of drinking experience according to Dr Bob's handwritten list. Fits the profile that Jim did no drinking until age 35. See Dr. Bob's list = the Amos List http://hindsfoot.org/amostype.pdf and http://hindsfoot.org/amoslist.html Many have tried to identify "Jim" on pages 35-37 of the Big Book with the author of the story "Another Prodigal Story" in the first edition of the Big Book See http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm This person was a stationary store owner in Springfield Mass. named ROBERT Furlong. One may find his first name given as "Ralph" (Ginnie McL) or "Roy" (Jimmy B.), but both of these are incorrect. Robert Furlong was a shareholder in Works Publishing, and he exchanged letters with Bill W and Ruth Hock in Feb 1941 which are in the GSO archives. In the letters he is identified as Bob F. I believe Western Mass archives also has these letters. Jared is currently trying to track down Harlan's "commendable war record" but it is proving to be elusive. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7876. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Women in early AA From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/19/2011 3:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Group There was at least one earlier sober female in California before Sybil, but she gets no credit. On page 92 of AA Comes of Age, it states that Lee T. was present at Kaye Miller's meeting on December 19, 1939. Kaye Miller, non-alcoholic, had learned about AA just after the Big Book was published. On a visit to New York, she received a copy of our book for Bill himself. Upon her return to LA she promised to do what she could to spread the word about AA. She kept in touch with the New York office, giving progress reports. Towards the end of 1939, Kaye was reporting that with the help of Johnny Howe, LA's Psychopathic Probation Officer, LA was going have its first AA meeting. Around the first of December 1939, Ruth Hock writes Kaye to let her know that Lee and Chuck Thorndyke were moving to LA and she should wait on the meeting until their arrival. When Lee and Chuck arrived they stayed with Kaye for several days until they got settled in. According to Kaye, the first meeting in LA was on December 19, 1939. The meeting consisted of Lee telling her story, Johnny Howe read something about Psychiatry, closed with the Lord's Prayer, and had coffee and donuts after the meeting. Lee relapses in early January 1940 and Johnny Howe was able to get her dried out quickly in the psycho ward of the hospital where he worked. For some reason, after her release from the hospital, Lee insisted the AA meeting should be a closed meeting. She was so persistent that she started a closed meeting that became the Pasadena Home Group in February 1940. In March or April 1940 Lee and Chuck moved to San Francisco. There was only one meeting and again Lee was insisting the meeting be changed to a closed meeting. All of her arguing about being a closed meeting caused the group to split in May 1940. It was said the two groups became bitter rivals. There was a fact I could not prove that she was somehow involved with the San Francisco central office. After this I lose track of Lee and Chuck. Not sure if Lee stayed sober or what happen to either of them. Sybil might have been the first woman west of the Mississippi to obtain long term sobriety, but she wasn't really the first sober female west of the Mississippi. Hope this helps Charles from Wisconsin ________________________________ From: John Moore wrote: > > Not ROBERT F[------] but ROLAND ARTHUR F[------] 1882-1946, called BOB, from Springfield MA (about 150 miles from NYC). > > RALPH F[------] 1891-1966 of Pittsfield MA (also about 150 miles from NYC) was presumably also a member, but as the author of the story had a daughter whose birthday was in June and while I don't know in what month Bob's daughters Alice and Ethel were born, I do know Ralph's daughter Eloise was b. in February 1911. > > So apparently Ginny had the wrong person and Jimmy had the wrong first name (for either person) -- but it's interesting he had "Roy" for "Roland" since one of Rowland H's nicknames was Roy. > > There's a brief note on the Ralph/Roland business (but without the crucial information on Ralph's daughter's birth month) in CULTURE ALCOHOL & SOCIETY QUARTERLY (Vol 4 no. 3), pp. 3-7, online at Brown University Library, Kirk Collection, CASQ. > > > > From: jax760@... > > Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 > > Subject: Re: Properly identifying Jim who put whiskey into milk > > I would like to suggest that "Jim" (Big Book pages 35-37) was quite > likely Harlan Spencer. Harlan was an automobile salesman age 45 with 10 years of drinking experience according to Dr Bob's handwritten list. Fits the profile that Jim did no drinking until age 35. > > See Dr. Bob's list = the Amos List > http://hindsfoot.org/amostype.pdf > and http://hindsfoot.org/amoslist.html > > Many have tried to identify "Jim" on pages 35-37 of the Big Book with the author of the story "Another Prodigal Story" in the first edition of the Big Book > > See http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm > > This person was a stationary store owner in Springfield Mass. named ROBERT Furlong. One may find his first name given as "Ralph" (Ginnie McL) or "Roy" (Jimmy B.), but both of these are incorrect. > > Robert Furlong was a shareholder in Works Publishing, and he exchanged letters with Bill W and Ruth Hock in Feb 1941 which are in the GSO archives. In the letters he is identified as Bob F. I believe Western Mass archives also has these letters. > > Jared is currently trying to track down Harlan's "commendable war record" but it is proving to be elusive. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7878. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: History of AA cooperation with Corrections and Treatment From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/31/2011 8:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Off the top of my head, I would say that the first Hospital meetings were with Dr. Bob and Sister Ignatia at St. Thomas (Woody in Akron may have the details). There the Alcoholic Squad members of the Akron Oxford Group had meetings with one or two sober alcoholics carrying the message to another alcoholic. I spoke with my sponsor today and we discussed Rockland State in Monsey, NY as being the first hospital (institution) meeting in the east. He also mentioned Bob Valentine and his old house/barn where Bill and Lois stayed in the "upper Siberian" room. Graduates of Dr. Blaisdell's Rockland State also stayed there. I read that members of that Hospital were also bussed to meetings in NY City and South Orange, NJ. I don't think there were early guidelines except common sense. The guidelines came later as we gained experience. Because we were invited guests we had to abide by the rules of the Hospitals, Institutions and Prisons we visited. In Philadelphia, Jimmy Burwell (The Vicious Cycle) and the members of the Philadelphia Mother Group took the example of what was being done in Akron, Cleveland and NY. As soon as Jimmy arrived in Philadelphia he got several Oxford Group members from Dr Saul and Dr Hammer and they went to where Jimmy knew he could find drunks. That is in jails and prisons. (See Memoirs of Jimmy; possibly the 1st AA history piece written outside the forward to the first edition.) Immediately, He got members from PGH (Philadelphia General Hospital) and the House of Corrections. That was March of 1940. Jimmy was the salesman from the 3rd tradition of the 12 and 12 where he is called Ed. Jimmy carried the message to Philadelphia, Wilmington DE, Baltimore MD, and Harrisburg, PA. Jimmy and his wife Mary arrived in Philadelphia on Feb 13,1940 and with several names given to him by Ruth Hock (Bill Wilson's secretary) and with Charlie B ,whom he had met in NY at a meeting, they arranged for an organizational meeting. George S contacted AA in NY in 1939 after reading Morris Markey's article in Liberty magazine (Fulton Oursler publisher). That article was "Alcoholics and God," produced by the efforts of Clarence Snyder and the Cleveland Groups of AA. George had Jimmy introduced to McCready H. of the O.G who brought in Bayard B and Edmond P., also O.G.ers. I presume Jimmy had asked Clarence( Home Brewmeister) "How to start a group" and wrote to him on Feb 29, 1940 that Philadelphia had their first group meeting. Seven ex drunks including Fitz Mayo from NY (Our Southern Friend) who told Bill about the meeting when he returned to NY. I find it interesting that he went to Clarence rather than to Bill or Dr. Bob. but then Clarence had more experience than they did in starting groups outside the O.G. At the first open meeting of AA in Philadelphia Bill and Lois and New York AA members again including Fitz M., Mr and Mrs Herb D.,Mr and Mrs Gordon McD of NJ AA attended (he came up with the recovery figures given at the Rockefeller dinner) along with non-alcoholics Helen and Dr A Wiese Hammer. On April 3, 1940 a meeting open to all at St Luke's Hospital had members of the Medical community talking to the Press about the disease of Alcoholism to the 35 plus in attendance. This was a Public Information meeting and continued for many years as an open AA Meeting. Jack D of Upper Darby PA. came out of the House of Corrections in Philadelphia by way of PGH and stayed active and sober until he died. The H of C meeting still continues to this day and outdates San Quentin's meeting by 2 years, having been started in 1940. The Head Municipal Court Judge, Curtis Bok (owner of Saturday Evening Post, Curtis Publications) court ordered alcoholics to AA meetings. The doctors and the Judge and the efforts of these Philadelphia Mother group members were responsible for the Jack Alexander SEP (Saturday Evening Post) Article. ___________________________________________ In a message dated 10/31/2011, mdhardcrab@yahoo.com writes: What is the AA history on the development of cooperation with the correctional and treatment institutions? Who started it, where did it originate from, what was the early guidelines???? Thanks Jim M 10111998 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7879. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Women in early AA From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/31/2011 9:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On the Kaye Miller transcript of tape 1, she does mentions on page 4 that "a member of the NY group who was coming out to LA with her husband and perhaps she'd sort of help us. So she came and she and --(tape interruption) that was Lee Thorndike,and she and Chuck stayed with me for several days,nd on that famous day in December, we had our first meeting." A couple paragraphs later, she mentions Jean Levine who starts the group in the LA Prisons for women. That is also in late 40 or early 41 apparently. Charlie, Is any more known about her? Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Hardcore AA Group Eddystone, PA. USA _______________________________________ In a message dated 10/31/2011, cpknapp@yahoo.com writes: There was at least one earlier sober female in California before Sybil, but she gets no credit. On page 92 of AA Comes of Age, it states that Lee T. was present at Kaye Miller's meeting on December 19, 1939. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7880. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why don''t you choose your own concept of God? From: Dov . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2011 12:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "the idea that the phrase "God of your understanding" is "anachronistic" or an "idealized mythical retelling" does not seem plausible in light of Ebby's own words." Extensive studies show that memory is far from a videotape and is susceptible to interference from outside sources. "The Seven Sins of Memory: How the Mind Forgets and Remembers" and the more popular "The Invisible Gorilla: And Other Ways Our Intuitions Deceive Us" are two books that deal with misattribution of memory. Ebby's speech in '58 was very likely to have been influenced by both the Big Book account and by AA conventional wisdom and to me at least it's far less conclusive than the documentary evidence of the added paragraphs and Bill's own statements about his attitudes in early AA. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "caligari" wrote: > > "Taking that theme further I am beginning to wonder whether the entire concept of a God of your understanding as presented in Bill's story is anything more than an idealized anachronistic retelling of early AA as a more palatable Big Book introduction of AA to the newcomer." > > I wondered about this myself. Then I listened to a recording of a talk given by Ebby (Jan. 1958?) Ebby remembers the "kitchen table talk" very differently than Bill. However, referring to the Oxford group encounters PRIOR to his talk with Bill he states, "I really figured that these guys must have something. That there must be a higher power because they were the ones that originated the phrase believe in a Higher God or a Higher Power as you understand him". > > You can find these words at about the 25 minute mark in the tape. You can listen to the audio here: > > http://aa-meetings.com/audio/speakers/ind.php?id=87 > > Or here: > > http://xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1251 > > It seems to me reasonable to assume that Ebby would use these words in his "pitch" to Bill that night. How the four handwritten paragraphs from the working manuscript came to be written is still a mystery to me. However the idea that the phrase "God of your understanding" is "anachronistic" or an "idealized mythical retelling" does not seem plausible in light of Ebby's own words. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7881. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: who was the first woman to join AA? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/30/2011 9:25:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 23:43 10/29/2011, Cindy Miller wrote: >The question asked was "who was the first woman to join AA?" Cindy's response was: >Why does it matter? It matters to those of us who think of ourselves, wistfully perhaps, as historians. Recovery is one thing and history is another, but ofttimes it is a bit difficult to keep them separate. For many of us A.A. history reinforces our recovery. Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7882. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Properly identifying Jim who put whiskey into milk From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/31/2011 8:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In Message #7872, John Barton wrote >I would like to suggest that "Jim" (Big Book pages 35-37) was quite likely Harlan Spencer .... Jared is currently trying to track down Harlan's "commendable war record" but it is proving to be elusive. A former serviceman's descendents can get the records fairly easily. I don't know about researchers. I can put them in touch with the proper people. It may take a couple of tries. Have John and Jared write me at (cometkazie1@cox.net) Tommy IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7883. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Properly identifying Jim who put whiskey into milk From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/1/2011 5:26:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Yes -- that is, "Bob" is Roland Arthur. There is no "Robert." ==================== > From: jax760@yahoo.com > Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 > Subject: Re: Properly identifying Jim who put whiskey into milk > > Jared, > > I remember we talked about this a year or so ago. I just want to make sure I have it right. Roland is Bob F (Robert Furlong)owner of Empire Stationary at 305 Bridge Street, Springfield Mass? All one in the same? Yes? ==================== > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "J. Lobdell" wrote: > > > > Not ROBERT F[------] but ROLAND ARTHUR F[------] 1882-1946, called BOB, from Springfield MA (about 150 miles from NYC). > > > > RALPH F[------] 1891-1966 of Pittsfield MA (also about 150 miles from NYC) was presumably also a member, but as the author of the story had a daughter whose birthday was in June and while I don't know in what month Bob's daughters Alice and Ethel were born, I do know Ralph's daughter Eloise was b. in February 1911. > > > > So apparently Ginny had the wrong person and Jimmy had the wrong first name (for either person) -- but it's interesting he had "Roy" for "Roland" since one of Rowland H's nicknames was Roy. > > > > There's a brief note on the Ralph/Roland business (but without the crucial information on Ralph's daughter's birth month) in CULTURE ALCOHOL & SOCIETY QUARTERLY (Vol 4 no. 3), pp. 3-7, online at Brown University Library, Kirk Collection, CASQ. ==================== > > > From: jax760@... > > > Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 > > > Re: Properly identifying Jim who put whiskey into milk > > > > Many have tried to identify "Jim" on pages 35-37 of the Big Book with the author of the story "Another Prodigal Story" in the first edition of the Big Book > > > > This person was a stationary store owner in Springfield Mass. named ROBERT Furlong. One may find his first name given as "Ralph" (Ginnie McL) or "Roy" (Jimmy B.), but both of these are incorrect. > > > > Robert Furlong was a shareholder in Works Publishing, and he exchanged letters with Bill W and Ruth Hock in Feb 1941 which are in the GSO archives. In the letters he is identified as Bob F. I believe Western Mass archives also has these letters. ==================== IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7884. . . . . . . . . . . . A story about one of our friends, page 80 in the Big Book From: jrobbins1123 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/1/2011 8:26:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Has anyone been able to identify the man who "accepted a large sum of money from a bitterly hated business rival" and who the rival was? See page 80 in the book "Alcoholics Anonymous". I understand this was an Oxford Group story and the names of the participants are unknown. Is this still the case? in service, Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7885. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: History of AA cooperation with Corrections and Treatment From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/1/2011 10:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Shakey -- A minor point: check the spelling of Bob V's last name. On Rockland State Hospital I can recall my mother taking a bus from where we lived in Ho-Ho-Kus NJ (actually a Public Service bus to Ridgewood and then an Inter-City Lines bus to 167th St) into the old 167th St Bus Terminal in NYC and then a Red and Tan Lines bus from 167th St to Rockland State Hospital to be part of carrying a meeting into Rockland State Hospital -- this must have been between 1948 and 1951. She met another (or other) alcoholic(s) there -- I believe women. We didn't have a car, and I think one of them drove her home to NJ. (It was at that 167th St terminal a little later where she introduced me to her friend Annie, who was older than she and spoke with a burr in her voice, and whose story I think my mother, working as a volunteer, typed for the 2nd edition. For all I know Annie was one of the women who spoke at Rockland.) > From: Shakey1aa@aol.com > Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 > Subject: Re: History of AA cooperation with Corrections and Treatment > > I spoke with my sponsor today and we discussed Rockland State in Monsey, NY as being the first hospital (institution) meeting in the east. He also mentioned Bob Valentine and his old house/barn where Bill and Lois stayed in the "upper Siberian" room. Graduates of Dr. Blaisdell's Rockland State also stayed there. > > I read that members of that Hospital were also bussed to meetings in NY City and South Orange, NJ. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7886. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: History of AA cooperation with Corrections and Treatment From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/1/2011 10:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Don't forget the early contact with Tiebout and the meeting at Blythewood in June of 1939. Marty Mann and Grenville Curtis were both in residence. Meeting did continue in Ct. after that and then High Watch came into play. Rockland County was December 1939 and yes Bob Volentine (correct spelling) was instrumental in working with Dr. Blaisdell in bringing the Rockland County "inmates" down to the South Orange Meeting on Sunday Evenings at the Community House. God Bless John B IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7887. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: History of AA cooperation with Corrections and Treatment From: Michael Gwirtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/1/2011 12:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Was that Annie the cop killer? Shakey Mike Gwirtz - - - - On Nov 1, 2011, "J. Lobdell" wrote: > On Rockland State Hospital I can recall my mother taking a bus from where we lived in Ho-Ho-Kus NJ ... to Rockland State Hospital to be part of carrying a meeting into Rockland State Hospital -- this must have been between 1948 and 1951 .... > (It was at that 167th St terminal a little later where she introduced me to her friend Annie, who was older than she and spoke with a burr in her voice, and whose story I think my mother, working as a volunteer, typed for the 2nd edition. For all I know Annie was one of the women who spoke at Rockland.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7888. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Properly identifying Jim who put whiskey into milk From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/1/2011 12:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Works Publishing Co. lists shareholder as Robert A. Furlong c/o Empire Stationers, 305 Bridge Street Springfield, Mass. Robert was the proud owner of one share; report dated May 15, 1940 so perhaps aka? Curious though how Bob can ever be a nickname for Roland? > "J. Lobdell" wrote: > > Yes -- that is, "Bob" is Roland Arthur. There is no "Robert." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7889. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Where to find article called ''The Alcoholic Brain''? From: aa061035 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/21/2011 12:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII > The article also had two PET images of a normal and a boiling brain. No images, just the abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6573696 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7890. . . . . . . . . . . . AA pamphlet on Why AA is Anonymous From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/1/2011 5:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a pamphlet entitled Why Alcoholics Anonymous is Anonymous by Bill W, reprint from Grapevine January 1955. This printing is dated Dec 1973, and numbered Pamphlet Number PG-2. I do not understand if this pamphlet is part of the AA literature series because it is not numbered like regular pamphlets. Is this a Grapevine pamphlet number? John Wikelius Enterprise, Alabama (justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7891. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: AA pamphlet on Why AA is Anonymous From: Laurence Holbrook . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2011 1:42:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The same content is in Language of the Heart, pp 209 and the Grapevine Digital Archive listed as "Why Alcoholics Anonymous Is Anonymous", January 1955, Vol. 11 No. 8 http://da.aagrapevine.org/article.php?id=93231 &tb=3ZGE9cSUzQWphbnVhcnkrMTk1NSZwZz0z [subscription required] Larry Holbrook ----------------------- Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com (410) 802-3099 8223 Quarterfield Road Severn, Maryland 21144-2710 Anne Arundel County Eastern Daylight Time L N 039° 07' 01" Lo W 076° 40' 25" Elevation ca 135' Permanent Address (Mail/Parcels) Laurence Holbrook 161 Rainbow Drive #6183 Livingston, Texas 77399-1061 _____ From: john wikelius Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 Subject: AA pamphlet on Why AA is Anonymous I have a pamphlet entitled Why Alcoholics Anonymous is Anonymous by Bill W, reprint from Grapevine January 1955. This printing is dated Dec 1973, and numbered Pamphlet Number PG-2. I do not understand if this pamphlet is part of the AA literature series because it is not numbered like regular pamphlets. Is this a Grapevine pamphlet number? John Wikelius Enterprise, Alabama (justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7892. . . . . . . . . . . . 1950 Anonymity Letter From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2011 8:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill W refers to a letter sent to major media outlets in a January 1955 Grapevine article: "Editor's note: delegates to AA's General Service Conference are at present considering the advisability of once more briefing publishers on AA's Tradition of anonymity at the public level. (A letter on this subject was mailed to all major newspapers, wire services and radio stations in 1950.)" Can someone point me to a copy of this letter? I notice he doesn't mention TV. As an aside, I notice two paragraphs from this article are the p. 97 content in As Bill Sees It, but the source is given as A.A. Comes of Age. I would think the Grapevine would have priority here. Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7893. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Some controversial material from Charlie Bishop From: Jim Myers . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/27/2011 3:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Sober186, I am totally in agreement with you. One thing is for sure. Alcoholics Anonymous is NOT for sale. And you are right in what you say. There are many out there who sell A.A. material that was never theirs. This should become a priority for Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. bringing an end to it - AA members making a profit from the A.A. material they have on their web sites for sale. I don't mean bring Law suits, rather asking them to remove such material from their web site that they are profiting from - explaining further why they should remove it. Being a webmaster myself on the subject of Alcoholics Anonymous and related information, I sell nothing on silkworth.net. Why? I am merely giving away what has so freely been given me. That in some way, the information there in will help someone (a likely candidate for our fellowship or strengthen a current members sobriety). It is my intention to create the largest Data base of Alcoholics Anonymous History and related information on the World Wide Web. So far, I believe I have reached that goal, but wish to see it continue to grow.I still have much to add and it will be posted in time. And no one in the fellowship should hold back. Send what you have to add to silkworth.net, helping to achieve such a goal - making silkworth.net the largest, most comprehensive, informational site about Alcoholics Anonymous History and related information. So, what say ye? How can you help? By sending any AA history and related information to silkworth.net. I was told by a hardcore AA member who used to be my Sponsor (Marshall L of Columbia, SC -- now deceased -- whose primary purpose was to help other alcoholics achieve sobriety) who at first was skeptical of silkworth.net, said to me one day that silkworth.net will go down in the history books as the best AA history site on the world wide web. With your help, this can become a reality. So, I leave it up to you. Should there be such a site online? I think yes. From within AA's history lies our future. And is why the title on all my pages state: "Welcome to Silkworth.net . . . . experience the history . . . lest we forget! To all, have a blessed day! Yours in service, Jim M. http://www.silkworth.net/ ------------------------------------------------ "Let us also remember to guard that erring member - the tongue, and if we must use it, let's use it with kindness and consideration and tolerance." -Dr. Bob, Sunday, July 30, 1950 http://silkworth.net/aahistory/drbob_farewell.html ------------------------------------------------ >________________________________ >From: "Sober186@aol.com" >To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 10:16 PM >Subject: Re: Some controversial material from Charlie Bishop > >I have e-mailed AAWS asking exactly what actions were taken on these matters, and specifically who gave any individual or law firm authority to act on behalf of AAWS or world services. > >I believe the membership should be able to see any such documentation and that conference action would be necessary to authorize such activity before A.A. actually did anything except what might be called routine procedures to protect or control material owned by AAWS. > >We live in a world where copyrights are often ignored. Copyright laws are unknown to the general population. Therefore people duplicate copyrighted material, sell it at a profit and think it is their right to do so. Or they sell the material as if it were theirs. Again no one doing that kind of selling believes it is wrong. > >In all honesty, I "have a dog in the fight" because I am researching a book and plan to use a revised version of the 12 Steps as part of a system to help people recover from a different malady .... > >As one who gets paid to write for news wire services, it is somewhat >infuriating when I have worked weeks to develop a story, publish it, and then see some other person or service copy some of what I have written and sell it to the public or clients for a profit as if they had done the work themselves. That is not fair and not legal .... > >By the way, it is my belief that "leads" such as those given by people at AA meetings, are the property of the person who prepares or delivers them. That means such leads should not be recorded and sold for a profit without the written permission of the individual giving the lead. That is often violated. I have seen leads of a number of celebrates for sale. That is not only a violation of their anonymity, but also a copyright infringement .... IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7894. . . . . . . . . . . . Is there a public list of the AA Trustees? From: CloydG . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2011 1:51:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Are the Trustees past and present ever listed or are they anonymous? In love and service, Clyde G. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7895. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: New documentary (Hanlon and Carracino) on how AA began From: bill@athenararebooks.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2011 2:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I thought people might appreciate an update on this article (written this past March) about the forthcoming documentary on Bill Wilsons life. I talked with Kevin Hanlon recently and he told me that after many years of work by him and Dan (and a host of others) the film is finally nearing completion. Kevin said that they have finished the major editing and are currently doing all the necessary post-production work to get it ready for release. They are committed to having a final, finished product by Thanksgiving. However, the release date and the way the film will be distributed are still being negotiated. Just to clarify what it says in this article, the actors mentioned as being in Akron do not speak any lines in this film. They are used for silent recreations of what is being spoken in the voiceover most usually in Bill Wilsons own words. I was privileged to see a rough cut of this film last April (full disclosure I was interviewed and appear as one of the talking heads in the film) and I was truly impressed with the deep knowledge of AA history (neither Kevin nor Dan is a member of AA) and the sensitivity to Bill Wilsons personality, character and life that the movie presents. It is a truly remarkable achievement. I am sure that this film will prove to be an outstanding way for AA members (and others) to learn more about our founder and our Fellowship. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, L wrote: > > The Points blog also has a follow up from Dr. Kurtz, where he references a documentary (now filming) on the founding of AA. > > I hadn't seen anything about this before so I thought I would pass along the link: > ________________________ > > http://www.ohio.com/news/movie-crew-shoots-scenes-at-stan-hywet-for-a-a-film -1.2\ 00159 [28] > > Movie crew shoots scenes at Stan Hywet for A.A. film > > A.A. co-founder's story inspires filmmakers > > By Jim Carney > Beacon Journal staff writer > > Bill Wilson and Dr. Robert Smith recently met again for the first time in Akron. > > The 1935 encounter of the two men, which led to the founding of Alcoholics Anonymous a month later, was re-created as New York actors filmed a scene for a movie to be titled Bill W. > > Filming was done at the Gate Lodge of Stan Hywet Hall & Gardens, where Henrietta Seiberling, daughter-in-law of Goodyear co-founder F.A. Seiberling, had set up the meeting between the Akron physician known as Dr. Bob and New York stockbroker Wilson, who was in Akron on a business trip. > > Kevin Hanlon and Dan Carracino, the two men making the movie, have known each other since they were classmates at LaSalle Military Academy in New York. They had vowed that someday they would make a movie together, even though they had no film-making experience before this project. > > In 2003, the two decided to make a full-length documentary about the life of Wilson, who died in 1971 at the age of 75. > > Hanlon, the movie's director, is a New York City resident who worked as a project manager and consultant. He said Wilson's life captured his imagination. > > ''First and foremost, it's a fascinating story,'' he said. > > Wilson, a Vermont native, was trying to stay sober during his business trip to Akron on Mother's Day weekend in 1935. > > Henrietta Seiberling, who was involved in a spiritual organization called the Oxford Group, arranged a meeting between Wilson and Smith in a small study in the Gate Lodge at Stan Hywet on Mother's Day. > > Smith was still drinking at the time. The meeting, which he vowed would go no longer than 15 minutes, lasted more than five hours. > > About a month later, on June 10, 1935, Alcoholics Anonymous was founded in Akron. The group now has more than 2.1 million members worldwide. > > At the meeting, Wilson told Smith the story of his alcoholism and his drinking life. Then Smith told Wilson his story. > > Carracino, the film's producer, lives in Laguna Beach, Calif., and has worked in the electronics business. When Hanlon suggested making a documentary about Wilson, the first thing Carracino wondered was, ''This has never been done?'' > > Researching the subject, he found there are no full-length documentaries about Wilson. Then he realized why. > > ''They are anonymous,'' he said, referring to a basic tenet of A.A. > > Hanlon and Carracino found old film footage and photographs of early A.A. history, but it was sound recordings they found that really helped their research. > > ''As poor as A.A. is in visual history, it is incredibly rich in audio history,'' Carracino said. > > The two men have listened to hundreds of hours of recorded talks given by Wilson and other A.A. members. > > The film will use the voice of Wilson to help tell his story, Carracino said. > > He said he and Hanlon were moved emotionally when they walked into the Gate Lodge room where the A.A. founders first met. > > ''This is where it happened,'' he said. > > Hanlon said he is intrigued by the mystery of the meeting and what came of the hours of talking. > > ''You had one man [Wilson] who knew if he didn't speak to someone else he was going to drink, and another man [Smith] who was in a desperate condition because he couldn't stop drinking,'' Hanlon said. > > ''There is no way on earth those two men could have possibly known the consequence of this conversation the day it happened.'' > > Actors from New York City playing the roles of Wilson, Smith and Smith's wife, Anne, were flown in for the filming. > > Hanlon said the film, which is being made by their company, Page 124 Productions â" a name that refers to a page in the A.A. Big Book â" will be finished this spring. > > It is not known how the movie will be released, but Hanlon and Carracino will pitch it to various film festivals this year. > > The film is expected to be screened in Akron later this year, Hanlon said. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7896. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: New documentary (Hanlon and Carracino) on how AA began From: David . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/6/2011 2:18:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was fortunate to see a filming of the documentary at a meeting of the Association of Intervention specialists this evening in Indian Wells, CA. As a member of AA (and Board Registered Interventionist) and sober since August 1982 I felt a great sense of gratitude to be able to see the film. It is beautifully made and lovingly presented. It deals with the the LSD, Niacin and Helen Wynn debate very sensitively and adds to the reality that Bill was human. There is interesting input from tapes of Nell Wing and Helen's son Shepperd S. I hope that the Producers find an avenue for this documentary to find a market as I believe it is a very important historical document. Ernie Kurtz's input is wonderful. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7897. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the Jim Myers - Shakey Mike site From: Al Welch . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/6/2011 10:29:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jim, this is a blatant advertisement for your site! I too have an AA related site that has been online since 1994. You will not find its name or web addy anywhere on AAHistorylovers. (Unless it was requested from someone.) And I have never begged for contributions, either. Nor do I accept donations. So, in keeping with the purpose of the list, let's keep it honest. ===================================== Copies of this posting sent to: (jim.myers56 at yahoo.com) "Shakey Michael Gwirtz" (Shakey1aa at aol.com) ===================================== -----Original Message #7893 from Jim Myers----- http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7893 Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 3:01 AM Subject: Re: Some controversial material from Charlie Bishop Hello Sober186, I am totally in agreement with you. One thing is for sure. Alcoholics Anonymous is NOT for sale. And you are right in what you say. There are many out there who sell A.A. material that was never theirs. This should become a priority for Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. bringing an end to it - AA members making a profit from the A.A. material they have on their web sites for sale. I don't mean bring Law suits, rather asking them to remove such material from their web site that they are profiting from - explaining further why they should remove it. Being a webmaster myself on the subject of Alcoholics Anonymous and related information, I sell nothing on silkworth.net. Why? I am merely giving away what has so freely been given me. That in some way, the information there in will help someone (a likely candidate for our fellowship or strengthen a current members sobriety). It is my intention to create the largest Data base of Alcoholics Anonymous History and related information on the World Wide Web. So far, I believe I have reached that goal, but wish to see it continue to grow.I still have much to add and it will be posted in time. And no one in the fellowship should hold back. Send what you have to add to silkworth.net, helping to achieve such a goal - making silkworth.net the largest, most comprehensive, informational site about Alcoholics Anonymous History and related information. So, what say ye? How can you help? By sending any AA history and related information to silkworth.net. I was told by a hardcore AA member who used to be my Sponsor (Marshall L of Columbia, SC -- now deceased -- whose primary purpose was to help other alcoholics achieve sobriety) who at first was skeptical of silkworth.net, said to me one day that silkworth.net will go down in the history books as the best AA history site on the world wide web. With your help, this can become a reality. So, I leave it up to you. Should there be such a site online? I think yes. From within AA's history lies our future. And is why the title on all my pages state: "Welcome to Silkworth.net . . . . experience the history . . . lest we forget! To all, have a blessed day! Yours in service, Jim M. http://www.silkworth.net/ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7898. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA pioneers now on Wikipedia? From: A from near Maldon, England, . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/28/2011 4:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Bryan S. Reid" wrote: I am a very regular user and subscriber to Wikipedia. If someone would establish their bona fides with Wikipedia as a AA historian, they could easily move to an editorial role on AA and AA-related subjects. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ There have been postings here about Wikipedia before and I got the impression that at least some thought strongly, that for a myriad of reasons it is best not to get involved with it. I have some experience with Wikipedia but am not well versed in its procedures nor particularly knowledgeable about AA history. However, I have the impression that Wikipedia is very serious about making itself a reliable accurate and unbiased source of researched information. It seems that very many people use it as almost their first source to resolve any query, therefore as it is impossible to prevent AA information being there. Maybe it is a form of service to 'the still suffering alcoholic' and those who support them and turn to AA as the source of recovery information for other addictions (admittedly they are not a direct concern for AA), it is a worthwhile activity to correct what is on Wikipedia that is wrong and to provide additional information where there are gaps. I suspect others will think differently, but I do agree with Bryan Here follows a link to a search of messages that mention Wikipedia in the subject line of the message in these discussions:- http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/msearch?date=any&DM=--- ----\ -----&DD=----&DY=----&DM2=------------&DD2=----&DY2=----&AM=contains&AT=&SM= cont\ ains&ST=wikipedia&MM=contains&MT=&charset=UTF-8 [33] Here follows a link to a search of messages that mention Wikipedia in the body of the message in these discussions:- http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/msearch?date=any&DM=--- ----\ -----&DD=----&DY=----&DM2=------------&DD2=----&DY2=----&AM=contains&AT=&SM= cont\ ains&ST=&MM=contains&MT=wikipedia&charset=UTF-8 [34] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7899. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Properly identifying Jim who put whiskey into milk From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/1/2011 5:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Springfield directories and his grave (in St Louis) show him as Roland Arthur. Since he was known to Bill as "Bob" the Works list error can be understood. As to why the nickname "Bob" -- I've speculated on that in the CASQ note referred to earlier, roughly as follows: Though RAF was born 17 August 1882, his parents were married 10 February 1886. Was he born of a different father? Was he called "Bob" because that was his original name? or because his listed father preferred it to his original name? or because he himself preferred it to his mother's "Roland" and "Arthur"? Or some combination thereof? I can't say, of course, but any young man born in the South whose greatest hero was Robert E. Lee would very likely prefer some version of Robert to the "Romantic" Roland Arthur. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7900. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: History of AA cooperation with Corrections and Treatment From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/1/2011 5:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Yes. - - - - > From: Shakey1aa@aol.com > Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 > > Was that Annie the cop killer? > > Shakey Mike Gwirtz > - - - - > On Nov 1, 2011, "J. Lobdell" wrote: > > > On Rockland State Hospital I can recall my mother taking a bus from where we lived in Ho-Ho-Kus NJ ... to Rockland State Hospital to be part of carrying a meeting into Rockland State Hospital -- this must have been between 1948 and 1951 .... > > > (It was at that 167th St terminal a little later where she introduced me to her friend Annie, who was older than she and spoke with a burr in her voice, and whose story I think my mother, working as a volunteer, typed for the 2nd edition. For all I know Annie was one of the women who spoke at Rockland.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7901. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why don''t you choose your own concept of God? From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/1/2011 9:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII FWIW More than 50 years ago, long before I had any interest in AA History, a friend invited me to a reception at the General Theological Seminary, where I heard Sam Shoemaker explain what he meant by the phrase "God as we understand Him" (= as much of God as we [need to] understand). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7902. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Women in early AA From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/1/2011 11:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hey, No Mike, I could not find anything about her. The archives in the LA Central Office used to be like Fort Knox to get into. I tried several time to do some research there and was denied. Just before I left Southern California in 2008, the access was getting a little better. They had such a weird schedule I never had the opportunity to go before I left. Maybe one day all of the secrets locked inside will come out. Jack Prose, sober since 1946, claimed to be the first to take meetings in to LA County jails but clearly Kaye Miller knew at least two other members that did it before Jack. Jean Levine and Hal Silverton. Hal got sober January 1940 and carried meetings into the Lincoln Heights jail that same year. He would go on to start AA in San Diego in November 1940 and started a weekly meeting at his summer home on Catalina Island in 1945. Back to Lee Thorndike .............. Bob P.'s unpublished history even notes two other female members in San Francisco before Sybil ........... Pauline C and Amy R. It reads: "The little group struggled through the next year. Among the recruits were Pauline C. from Berkeley, Nic N. from Oakland, Ed MCD., Tom L., and Lee and Chuck T. The latter two, who had joined A.A. in New York and had been a part of the early group in Los Angeles before moving to San Francisco, were highly critical of the way Ted C. was presenting A.A. and immediately began efforts to start a second A.A. group. They succeeded, with Don B. as one of their recruits, in May 1940. Bitter rivalry arose between the two groups. ________________________________ >From: "Shakey1aa@aol.com" >Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 >Subject: Re: Women in early AA > >On the Kaye Miller transcript of tape 1, she does mentions on page 4 that "a member of the NY group who was coming out to LA with her husband and perhaps she'd sort of help us. So she came and she and --(tape interruption) that was Lee Thorndike,and she and Chuck stayed with me for several days,nd on that famous day in December, we had our first meeting." > >A couple paragraphs later, she mentions Jean Levine who starts the >group in the LA Prisons for women. That is also in late 40 or early 41 apparently. > >Charlie, Is any more known about her? > >Yours in Service, >Shakey Mike Gwirtz >Hardcore AA Group >Eddystone, PA. USA > >_______________________________________ > >In a message dated 10/31/2011, cpknapp@yahoo.com writes: > >There was at least one earlier sober female in California before Sybil, but she gets no credit. On page 92 of AA Comes of Age, it states that Lee T. was present at Kaye Miller's meeting on December 19, 1939. > In April 1940, the original group was joined by John C. (brought in by King Y.) and Fred C. and Amy R. (referred by Dr. Poliak). And John and Fred turned out to be the only two to stay sober (other than King Y., who moved to Washington, D.C., and became active there). Ted C. was to slip repeatedly and end up again in the state hospital at Napa." I got most of my of info from Dean K., past delegate from Area 6 NCAA. He told me that Lee T. actually visited Amy R, mentioned above, in the hospital. Amy never really got sober but was in and out of AA for at least 2 years. In a version of Dean's history of Northern California that I saw he mentions Lee and Chuck, but didn't not call them by name. I would love to borrow a copy of Dean's History of Northern California if anyone has a copy that would trust to lend it to me for awhile. Thanks! Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7903. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is there a public list of the AA Trustees? From: Gary Becktell . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/6/2011 11:05:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Trustees are not anonymous to us in the Fellowship. They are listed, starting on page 83, of the 2011 Conference Report. Each Group, if they have an active GSR, should have received one by now. G IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7904. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The first woman to join AA From: Norm The Tinman . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2011 7:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The name of Ethel Macy (plus general comment) from Norm the Tinman and Regina Tierney - - - - From: Norm The Tinman (normtinman at yahoo.com) I was told to not forget Ethel Macy on with my search -- comments anyone? - - - - From: Regina Tierney (rtierney at earthlink.net) I would like to say that as a woman in AA for 28 years I love hearing about the early women. They were very brave indeed to have joined such a group in a time when there was so much shame and scorn surrounding women alcoholics. Regina Tierney rtierney@earthlink.net 203-874-4937 646-675-1491 www.rtierneydigital.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7905. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the Jim Myers - Shakey Mike site From: Jim Lalonde . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/6/2011 11:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Al: I didn't see anywhere on Jim's post asking for money donations so what's the big deal. He asked for contributions of material or information as far as I can see. Jim L aka Nugget IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7906. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA pamphlet on Why AA is Anonymous From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2011 2:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Charles Knapp and Laurence Holbrook - - - - From: Charles Knapp (cpknapp at yahoo.com) I have a 1973 literature list and yes there were some different numbering of the products produced by GSO. This list shows 3 pamphlets reprints of Grapevine articles. PG-1 - Problems Other Than Alcohol PG-2 - Why Alcoholics Anonymous Is Anonymous PG-3 - Let's Be Friendly With Our Friends Others items that were numbered different were: PC-1 -What Happen To Joe PC-2 -It Happen To Alice D-1- World Directory Part 1 (US & Canada) D-1a - World Directory Part 11 (Overseas) D-2 - Directory of AA Groups in Correctional Faculties D-3 - Directory of AA Groups in Hospitals D-4 - The Group Handbook Hope this helps Charles from Wisconsin - - - - From: "Laurence Holbrook" (email at LaurenceHolbrook.com) I did pick up on the point that John was asking about the numbering discrepancy - my sole point was that the document has existed in print form since 1955 (prior to the literature reorganization and 'Conference Approved' identification in roughly the 70's through the 90's) - The pamphlet is not available from AAWS online, nor in their 2007 catalog - it is also not listed in the 2002 aaGrapevine catalog - Silkworth.net confirmed that it is no longer published by AAWS, thus it isn't available in the current 'standard format' - http://silkworth.net/aa/aa_pamphlets.html 1970 it was recommended by the Conference Literature Committee that (pg. 52): - The Grapevine reprints of Bill's articles Problems Other Than Alcohol (see 1958, 1974, 1979, 1982) and Why Alcoholics Anonymous is Anonymous (see 1975) be considered by AAWS. 1974 it was recommended by the Conference Literature Committee that (pg. 52): - the Grapevine reprints Why Alcoholics Anonymous is Anonyous (see 1970, 1975), Let's Be Friendly With Our Friends (see 1958), and Problems Other than Alcohol (see 1958, 1974, 1979, 1982) be prepared in standard pamphlet format. 1975 it was recommended by the Conference Literature Committee that (pg. 52-3): - the reprints Why Alcoholics Anonymous is Anonymous (see 1970, 1974), Our Critics Can Be Our Benefactors, and AA as a Community Resource be dropped. 1994 It was recommended by the Conference Literature Committee that (pg. 59-60): - the circle and triangle logo be discontinued on all Conference-approved literature. - the words 'this is a general service Conference-approved literature' be displayed on the front cover all AA Conference-approved literature whenever possible. Larry Holbrook (410) 802-3099 8223 Quarterfield Road Severn, Maryland 21144-2710 Anne Arundel County Permanent Address (Mail/Parcels) 161 Rainbow Drive #6183 Livingston, Texas 77399-1061 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7907. . . . . . . . . . . . The first time AA was mentioned on a television show From: Shakey Mike . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2011 4:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII When was the first time AA was mentioned on a television show? Was it a news show or perhaps Mrs Marty Mann? Yours in service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7908. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1950 Anonymity Letter From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2011 4:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I do not know if these are still mailed, although I thought I was told they were sent on an annual basis. I definitely have no idea of what the mailing list is. But, here is the Anonymity Letter to the media as of May, 2010: http://www.aa.org/subpage.cfm?page=39 Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7909. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W., A Strange Salvation From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/3/2011 5:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is anyone familiar with the book "Bill W., a Strange Salvation"? Is it accurate? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7910. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Where to find article called ''The Alcoholic Brain''? From: bigbookjoe . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/3/2011 3:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is a different study, but still helpful. Keep 'em coming. :o) --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "aa061035" wrote: > > > The article also had two PET images of a normal and a boiling brain. > > No images, just the abstract: > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6573696 > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7911. . . . . . . . . . . . Did Bill do a written inventory with Ebby in Town''s hospital or soon afterward? From: royslev . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/3/2011 9:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As we read in Bill's Story BB pg 13: "My schoolmate visited me, and I fully acquainted him with my problems and deficiencies. We made a list of people I had hurt or toward whom I felt resentment. I expressed my entire willingness to approach these individuals, admitting my wrong." Did Bill in any of his later writings go into whether this was a verbal or written "fourth step" (the steps didn't exist at the time) or at least what we would recognize as a moral inventory? Did he ever write of his subsequent amends? Some people allege that Bill didn't really work the program he wrote about until much later when Father Ed Dowling the Jesuit "took him through the steps" again, as his later spiritual adviser. In Bill's 1951 Dallas recording recounting Ebby's visit at his house in Brooklyn and a few days later in Town's hospital, he only mentions Ebby relating the program as it existed at that time verbally. Bill then had his "white light" experience, kind of his third step, but doesn't mention further inventory or list work. Thanks for all feedback Roy L. royslev@verizon.net (royslev at verizon.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7912. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: History of AA cooperation -- Annie the cop fighter, not killer! From: planternva2000 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/6/2011 2:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Since I no longer have a second edition of the Big Book and don't like to rely on memory alone, I checked "Experience, Strength & Hope." Seems the lady in the story was called 'Annie the Cop Fighter' not 'cop killer'. > > From: Shakey1aa@... > > Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 > > > > Was that Annie the cop killer? > > > > Shakey Mike Gwirtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7913. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W., A Strange Salvation From: Michael Margetis . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/6/2011 2:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi John, It is not intended to be an accurate history. It is what is known as a fact based novel. (Emphasis on NOVEL!) Here is what it says on one of the first couple of pages of the book: "Disclaimer: Although a work of fiction, this story is based in part on true events. Certain liberties have been taken with names and dates, and some characters have been invented, as well as most of the dialogue." (Hourihan, Paul (2010-03-16). Bill W. A Strange Salvation: A Biographical Novel Based on Key Moments in the Life of Bill Wilson . Vedantic Shores Press.) Mike Margetis Brunswick, Maryland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7914. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: History of AA cooperation -- Annie the cop fighter ... From: bevflk@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/6/2011 5:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My name is Beverly from Tucson, Arizona and I have a second edition and it is "Annie the Cop Fighter" - - - - > > From: Shakey1aa@... > > Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 > > > > Was that Annie the cop killer? > > > > Shakey Mike Gwirtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7915. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: History of AA cooperation -- Annie the cop fighter, not killer! From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/6/2011 3:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Quite right -- I hadn't noticed Mike had the nickname (and title) wrong -- but the lady in question was in any case Annie C. > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > From: planternva2000@yahoo.com > Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 19:38:53 +0000 > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: History of AA cooperation -- Annie the cop fighter, not killer! > > Since I no longer have a second edition of the Big Book and don't like to rely on memory alone, I checked "Experience, Strength & Hope." Seems the lady in the story was called 'Annie the Cop Fighter' not 'cop killer'. > > > > From: Shakey1aa@... > > > Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 > > > > > > Was that Annie the cop killer? > > > > > > Shakey Mike Gwirtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7916. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: John Zug and why the Washingtonian movement failed From: stalban2001 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/7/2011 5:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've often wondered if Bill W. or any of AA's pioneers understood the Washingtonians from the opposite perspective -- not as a failed enterprise, but as an organization that found the way and got many people sober? If that were the case, then understanding their inner workings and knowing if Bill Wilson read their literature would be a far more interesting question. As we learn more and more of the successes of the temperance movement, perceiving the Washingtonians only as a cautionary tale seems less viable to me. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7917. . . . . . . . . . . . The Counting of Noses in Akron - Fall of 1937 From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/7/2011 2:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Many distinguished authors have recorded this event as occurring in 1937, likely using AACOA as the source. This important date in AA history actually occurred between the second and third weeks of October, 1937. See below: An excerpt from the Golden Road of Devotion (C) 2009 It had been many years since Bill had meaningful work. The Great Depression and the lingering effects of the stock market crash of "29" were still evident and unemployment rates remained in the double digits.(Note 1) Bill, needing work, decided to look in the Midwest cities of Detroit and Cleveland. (Note 2) On Saturday October 9, 1937, Bill and Lois left New York in the company of William and Kathleen Ruddell of Hackettstown, NJ for the Midwest.(Note 3) Upon their arrival in Ohio, Bill Wilson visited his old friend, the Akron Physician.* In a Grapevine article published in October of 1945 we find Bill telling the story "The Book is Born." This is the first written reference we have found of the event we now consider, which is often referred to as "The Counting of Noses." "By the fall of 1937 we could count what looked like 40 recovered members. One of us had been sober for three years, another two and a half, and a fair number had a year or more behind them. As all of us had been hopeless cases, this amount of time elapsed began to be significant. The realization that we "had found something" began to take hold of us. No longer were we a dubious experiment. Alcoholics could stay sober. Great numbers perhaps! While some of us had always clung to this possibility, the dream now had real substance. If 40 alcoholics could recover, why not four hundred, four thousand - even forty thousand?" In June of 1954 at the Ninth Annual Texas State Convention, Bill recounted his visit with Dr. Bob Smith in greater detail. "So, on this late fall afternoon in 1937, Smithy and I were talking together in his living room, Anne sitting there, when we began to count noses. How many people had stayed dry; in Akron, in New York, maybe a few in Cleveland? How many had stayed dry and for how long? And when we added up the total, it sure was a handful of, I don't know, 35 to 40 maybe. But enough time had elapsed on enough really fatal cases of alcoholism, so that we grasped the importance of these small statistics. Bob and I saw for the first time that this thing was going to succeed. That God in his providence and mercy had thrown a new light into the dark caves where we and our kind had been and were still by the millions dwelling. I can never forget the elation and ecstasy that seized us both." (Note 4) * The Visit to Akron in the fall of 1937. The first recorded reference to the Akron visit we have found is Bill's Grapevine article published in October of 1945, The Book is Born. In this article Bill states: "By the fall of 1937 we could count what looked like 40 recovered members." In 1954 in Texas, he described the time period as "late fall." In the 1957 history book Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, November is listed as the month of the Akron visit in Landmarks of AA History on page vii. This reference has become the source for many subsequent writings by several distinguished authors and historians. It is not our intention to re-write or revise A.A. history by pointing out this historical conflict but rather to present the facts as they have been revealed to us. Lois's diary entry for October 9th is a "snapshot" in real time as opposed to historical dates that were recalled years after the fact by Bill, such as in the writing Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, some nineteen or twenty years after the Akron visit. This idea has been posited previously. See Kurtz; Not God, p.326, note. 57 NOTES 1 Great Depression in the United States," Microsoft® Encarta® Online Encyclopedia 2009 2 Pass It On, p.177 3 Lois Wilson's Diary, Oct 9, 1937 4 Bill Wilson's Address in Fort Worth, Texas June 12, 1954 The full text of "We Began to Count Noses" from the manuscript the Golden Road of Devotion can found for a limited time on this web page. http://bbsgsonj.webs.com/apps/documents/categories/show/37231 God Bless John B. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7918. . . . . . . . . . . . Sir William Osler''s - A Way of Life From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/7/2011 2:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A pdf of this 1913 text which helped Bill and Bob frame the idea of "One Day at a Time" can be found on this web page. http://bbsgsonj.webs.com/apps/documents/categories/show/37231 God Bless John B IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7919. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: John Zug and why the Washingtonian movement failed From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/8/2011 3:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Jared Lobdell, Jeff Bruce, and Norm The Tinman - - - - From: "J. Lobdell" (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) Agreed. The first GV piece on the Washingtonians took the official American Temperance Union (John Marsh) view that the WTS[B] failed because it wasn't true "Gospel" temperance (not "religious" enough). Bill rejected this but picked up on a very subsidiary issue (Abolition) to suggest the WTS[B] failed by splitting on Abolition (untrue in Baltimore in any case where the six founders were pretty uniformly anti-slavery and Unionists during the CW if they lived that long), presumably in order to suggest AA (pre-1954) shouldn't split itself on the question of segregation. Of course the Washington Temperance Society of Baltimore was a temperance society from the beginning. I don't know of any early indications that any early AAs saw the WTS[B] as a guide to what to do rather than what not to do, at least early on. A few members of the later Red and Blue Ribbon Movement ca 1880 did see things that way, and I think Bill did eventually come to know this, but the AA tendency was to use the Washingtonians simply as a cautionary tale, even while disagreeing on the specific nature of the caution. =========================================== > Original message #7916 from > (stalban2001 at yahoo.com) > > I've often wondered if Bill W. or any of AA's pioneers understood the Washingtonians from the opposite perspective -- not as a failed enterprise, but as an organization that found the way and got many people sober? If that were the case, then understanding their inner workings and knowing if Bill Wilson read their literature would be a far more interesting question. As we learn more and more of the successes of the temperance movement, perceiving the Washingtonians only as a cautionary tale seems less viable to me. =========================================== From: Jeff Bruce (aliasjb at gmail.com) Good point. I have thought only of the phenomenal following and the spectacular failure. Thank you for a better point of view. - - - - From: Norm The Tinman (normtinman at yahoo.com) I believe if Bill knew what we shouldn't do, he must have knew the positive things also they done--just my 2 cents. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7920. . . . . . . . . . . . Ron Roizen on Stigma at Points From: trysh travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/8/2011 9:34:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Points blog (http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/) on Nov. 8, 2011 featured a provocative post by Ron Roizen on the role of stigma in the conceptualization of addiction and treatment. Trysh Travis - - - - Stigma on Alcoholism: A Modest Proposal Posted on November 8, 2011 by ronroizen9 It seems to me â” and, incidentally, it has seemed to me for a long time â” that a key shortcoming in much of the prevailing research and thought surrounding the subject of the stigma on alcoholism stems from a failure to distinguish clearly between the moral and social definition placed upon, on the one hand, the âactive alcoholicâ and, on the other, that placed upon the successfully abstaining or ârecovering alcoholic.â What I have to offer about this shortcoming and its implications, below, will Iâm sure strike more than a few readers as restating the obvious. Yet, and surprisingly, sometimes even obvious-seeming propositions, when some of their implications are extracted, can generate new conclusions and a counterintuitive perspective on an old topic. Thatâs what I have in mind for this post on stigma. Letâs see how it works out. Active alcoholism is certainly subject to social stigma; the drinking alcoholic, in sociologist Erving Goffmanâs evocative words, occasions a âspoiled identity.â On the other hand, the alcoholic in recovery may be said to gain a modicum of social credit or approbation. Hence, the stigma situations of the active and the recovering alcoholic are sharply different. Indeed, when viewed through the lens of stigma, the individual alcoholicâs transition from active alcoholism to recovery â“ whether through the medium of treatment, âspontaneous remission,â Alcoholics Anonymous membership, or by any other means â” amounts to a stigma exchange, leaving behind the opprobrium attached to active alcoholism and exchanging it for the new social credit attached to recovery. It follows that the stigma on active alcoholism â” contrary to the prevailing view â“ may actually help push the active alcoholic toward treatment or recovery, both in order to rid himself of active alcoholismâs stigma and to embrace the benefits of a new âin recoveryâ status. Not all active alcoholics respond to stigma in the same way of course; nor might any given alcoholic respond to stigma the same way in different life situations or at different times. Yet, and from vantage point Iâm suggesting, stigma may play a positive role in recovery. In this sense, then, stigma may impell active alcoholics toward treatment or recovery as much or even more than it putatively thwarts or poses a barrier to treatment or recovery. Mrs. Marty Mann held that the disease conception of alcoholism provided a great social change instrument by which alcoholismâs stigma could be reduced or eliminated. Yet, clearly differentiating the stigma situations of the active and recovering alcoholic has implications for Mannâs great thesis too. To the extent that the disease concept supplied a quasi-medical explanation for alcoholism it also harbored some of the implications of Talcott Parsonsâ famous âsick roleâ for the alcoholic. The doctor-patient relationship, as Parsons memorably pointed out, held role obligations for the patient as well as for the doctor. For example, the patient must want to get well and must follow doctorâs orders in furthering a recovery. This aspect of the sick role, I suggest, can relatively heighten, rather than relatively reduce, stigma. With the emergence and widespread social acceptance of the alcoholism-as-disease idea, the alcoholic acquired in effect a Parsonsian positive duty to recover. The active alcoholic who resists or rejects that duty, in turn, acquired the added opprobrium attaching to that resistance. The concept of denial and the added negatives it brings to the resistant alcoholicâs identity gained gravity in a world where the disease concept had become widely accepted. It bears noting, in passing, that the conceptual content of A.A.âs allergy-like formulation of the disease concept of alcoholism also harbored stigma-enhancing potentials. In A.A.âs and Dr. Silkworthâs allergy model of alcoholism, it will be recalled, the alcoholic retained moral control over choosing to drink the first drink but lost control with subsequent drinks. This is a conceptual framework with obvious moral implications. Taken at face value, the alcoholicâs choice to drink the first drink, hence, became invested with heightened moral meaning. The alcoholic who chose to take that first drink in effect turned his back on both the paradigm that offered a path to recovery and the good people who offered this prospect. It might be added, as well, that the very idea of a stigma-free social environment for active alcoholism â“ if that were Mannâs utopian vision for a post-disease concept society â“ has never been one I could quite get my brain fully around. What would such a world look like? I think, for example, of the delicate situation of a daughter bringing home her fiancé to meet her parents for the first time. What if heâs an alcoholic? How would the introduction go with respect to that aspect of his identity in an alcoholism-has-no-stigma world? > Daughter (after introducing Charlie and his > various good qualities to her parents): âOh, > and I almost forgot, Charlieâs an alcoholic too.â > > Father: âWell, thatâs fine, Charlie. Itâs > very nice to meet you. I think we have a pretty > good stock of refreshments in the house. Would > you like a drink? Or are you, as they say, > âon the wagonâ currently?â > > Mother looks on with small but satisfied smile. One thing this imagined scene illustrates, I think, is that the subject of stigma is riven with numerous nuances and complexities. Even suggesting the notion of a zero-stigma social environment may involve the need for numerous meaning specifications along those nuance dimensions. Moreover, the different kinds of stigma on, say, cancer, divorce, HIV, drug addiction, and alcoholism may also vary significantly along those meaning dimensions. All of which provides excellent fodder for further thinking and investigation. One final conundrum might be mentioned. Marty Mann and to some extent the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous have proffered the disease conception as an antidote to social stigma. Yet A.A.âs famous 12 Steps provide a well-defined program for the moral re-invention of the self. The Steps address, in part, the bad behavior, the harms, and the pain the active alcoholic was responsible for in his drinking days. In effect, then, A.A.âs vision of active alcoholism is one that leaves a trail of hurt and harm behind it. This vision, in turn, raises a provocative question, namely: Why shouldnât the active alcoholic, in A.A.âs perspective, be stigmatized by the wider society? After all, stigma affords a measure of symbolic warning and protection for people in the alcoholicâs surrounding social environment. Summing up, then. Iâve suggested that clearly differentiating the stigma situations of the active and recovering alcoholic allows for a telling re-interpretation of the meaning of alcoholismâs stigma with respect to, among other things, treatment willingness and the meanings and implications of the disease concept of alcoholism. Iâve suggested that alcoholismâs stigma may be a force driving active alcoholics into treatment or recovery. Iâve suggested that the disease concept of alcoholism and its widespread acceptance in society and its sick role implications have double-edged effects on alcoholismâs stigma. Iâve suggested â“ via my imagined meet-the-parents vignette â“ that a truly stigma-free social environment respecting alcoholism may be difficult to configure. Finally, Iâve suggested that, in effect, active alcoholism in the A.A. perspective may well deserve at least some of its burden of stigma. The above offers a view on alcoholismâs stigma that differs markedly from the conventional wisdom. It might be noted that the ideas and the conceptual perspective Iâve suggested in this article â“ all stemming from the premium Iâve placed on differentiating active from recovering alcoholism â“ are eminently researchable. Indeed, itâs a pity they havenât been researched since the time when I first raised these ideas â“ in the late 1970s. But I havenât given up hope of that prospect. Not yet! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7921. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: meeting formats From: John . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/8/2011 11:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Have heard "does anyone need special time" or its equivalent in several meetings in southern Arizona at end of the meeting before closing. Gess . . . . On 10/10/2011 12:42 PM, gadgetsdad wrote: In my locality -- St.Cloud, Minnesota -- I attend 4 meetings a week. Each one has a different format .... [My fourth meeting] Back to Basics does How it Works and the Traditions and asks if anyone needs special time before the meeting, starts and closes with the Lord's Prayer. This question "Does anyone need special time?" seems to be a localism since I have never heard it asked at any of the meetings in Minnesota or the other 13 states where I have attended meetings. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7922. . . . . . . . . . . . John D Rockefeller dinner From: recoveredbygrace . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/13/2011 9:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 1940 February 8 - John D Rockefeller Jr. held a dinner for AA at the Union League Club. 75 of 400 invited guests attended. Is there a list available of Rockefeller invitees or those who attended this dinner? thanks,Tommy H Locust,NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7923. . . . . . . . . . . . Tom Powers and Bill Wilson and the writing of the 12 and 12 From: mbfdl . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/14/2011 12:24:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've recently heard about Tom Powers and his relationship to Bill and the writing of the 12 and 12. Can you point me in the direction of historically accurate information about Tom, his relationship with Bill and the literature, and his break with Bill, along with the reasons for this? Thanks, Fred IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7924. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: John Zug and why the Washingtonian movement failed From: Laurence Holbrook . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/16/2011 1:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I didn't think Bill believed the WTS failed because of the Abolition issue: 12&12 pp 178 [Tradition Ten]: "Maybe the society could have survived the abolition controversy, but it didn't have a chance from the moment it determined to reform America's habits. When the Washingtonians became temperance crusaders, within a very few years they had completely lost their effectiveness in helping alcoholics." - - - - ABOLITION > the crusade for the abolition of slavery in the U.S. during the period leading up to the Civil War. TEMPERANCE > Temperance movements cover a wide range. They may urge only moderation or restrictions on the use of alcoholic beverages, or they may campaign for total bans on the drinking of alcohol. They may criticize excessive alcohol use, promote complete abstinence (teetotalism), or pressure the government to enact anti-alcohol legislation or a complete prohibition of alcohol. - - - - Original message from Jared Lobdell (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) Agreed. The first GV piece on the Washingtonians took the official American Temperance Union (John Marsh) view that the WTS[B] failed because it wasn't true "Gospel" temperance (not "religious" enough). Bill rejected this but picked up on a very subsidiary issue (Abolition) to suggest the WTS[B] failed by splitting on Abolition (untrue in Baltimore in any case where the six founders were pretty uniformly anti-slavery and Unionists during the CW if they lived that long), presumably in order to suggest AA (pre-1954) shouldn't split itself on the question of segregation. Of course the Washington Temperance Society of Baltimore was a temperance society from the beginning. I don't know of any early indications that any early AAs saw the WTS[B] as a guide to what to do rather than what not to do, at least early on. A few members of the later Red and Blue Ribbon Movement ca 1880 did see things that way, and I think Bill did eventually come to know this, but the AA tendency was to use the Washingtonians simply as a cautionary tale, even while disagreeing on the specific nature of the caution. ========================================== THE RELEVANT SECTION OF THE 12 + 12 on the Tenth Tradition: The Washingtonian Society, a movement among alcoholics which started in Baltimore a century ago, almost discovered the answer to alcoholism. At first, the society was composed entirely of alcoholics trying to help one another. The early members foresaw that they should dedicate themselves to this sole aim. In many respects, the Washingtonians were akin to A.A. of today. Their membership passed the hundred thousand mark. Had they been left to themselves, and had they stuck to their one goal, they might have found the rest of the answer. But this didn't happen. Instead, the Washingtonians permitted politicians and reformers, both alcoholic and nonalcoholic, to use the society for their own purposes. Abolition of slavery, for example, was a stormy political issue then. Soon, Washingtonian speakers violently and publicly took sides on this question. Maybe the society could have survived the abolition controversy, but it didn't have a chance from the moment it determined to reform America's drinking habits. When the Washingtonians became temperance crusaders, within a very few years they had completely lost their effectiveness in helping alcoholics. The lesson to be learned from the Washingtonians was not overlooked by Alcoholics Anonymous. As we surveyed the wreck of that movement, early A.A. members resolved to keep our Society out of public controversy. Thus was laid the cornerstone for Tradition Ten: "Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy." ========================================== IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7925. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill and Silkie at Plattsburgh at the same time 1917 approx? From: B . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/11/2011 9:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From what I can gather, Dr. Silkworth was on the Psychiatric staff of the US Army hospital in Plattsburgh NY 1917-1919. I also understand that Bill W was attending advance training at Plattsburgh in 1917. I am wondering if their time overlapped? Was it possible they stood in line at the commissary or the PX or their cars passed each other, not knowing what history had in store? Possibly said hi to each other without even knowing what was to come? I am fascinated by this.... anybody have corroboration of dates? Thx IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7926. . . . . . . . . . . . The Medical Men: Kennedy, Collier, and Stouffer From: kevin.roche4@btinternet.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/14/2011 11:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am keen to locate photographs of Dr. Robert Foster Kennedy, Dr. G. Kirby Collier and Dr. John F. Stouffer. I would very much like to find out the date of death of Dr. John F. Stouffer too. I hope that someone in the group will be able to assist me in my endeavours. - - - - NOTE FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR: there's a photo, though not a very good one, of Dr. Kirby Collier at http://www.rochester-ny-aa.org/pdf_files/archives%20pdf%20files/Dr%20G.Kirby %20C\ ollier.pdf [35] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7927. . . . . . . . . . . . Recording of Amazing Grace from 1990 AA International From: lippee6 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/14/2011 9:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am looking to obtain a recording from the The Ninth A.A. International Convention in Seattle, Washington, 1990. At one of the big meetings, a woman sang "Amazing Grace." I would like to get a recording of this meeting with this song as a gift for my Sponsor. Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas of where I might be able to get a copy? Many thanks for any suggestions. Laura P (lippee6 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7928. . . . . . . . . . . . Reference to Jesus in As Bill Sees It Pg 114 From: kevinjbrennick . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/14/2011 9:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill wrote a letter in 1940 that is the basis for the comment found on page 114 of ABS. In it he refers to Jesus. Does anyone know to whom he was writing this letter? Was this comment taken out of a longer letter? Did he make more statements along the same subject? Thanks, Kevin B IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7929. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. and the golf course at the Ekwanok Country Club From: Patricia . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/14/2011 11:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In Bill's Story he makes a comment about the exclusive golf course which had inspired such awe in him as a lad. What was the golf course and how did he know about it? Patricia - - - - NOTE FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR: Presumably you are referring to the line at the top of p. 4 in the Big Book. This was a reference to the exclusive golf course at the Ekwanok Country Club. What other information do our members have about Bill's acquaintance with this golf course? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7930. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Tom Powers and Bill Wilson and the writing of the 12 and 12 From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/15/2011 6:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I believe you can find info on this in Pittman's book - AA The Way it All Began - The book may be out of print and if you can't find it let me know and I'll look up the relevant info. God Bless John B From: mbfdl To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 12:24 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Tom Powers and Bill Wilson and the writing of the 12 and 12 I've recently heard about Tom Powers and his relationship to Bill and the writing of the 12 and 12. Can you point me in the direction of historically accurate information about Tom, his relationship with Bill and the literature, and his break with Bill, along with the reasons for this? Thanks, Fred IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7931. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Counting of Noses in Akron - Fall of 1937 From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/15/2011 6:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The opening line of this post should have read: Many distinguished authors have recorded this event as occurring in November 1937, likely using AACOA as the source. I inadvertantlt left out the word "November" in my post - sorry for any confusion. The significance is of course that the history as recorded previously in many "history" books and writings and published biographies is in fact incorrect as it is based on the info Bill recorded in AACOA in 1957. Bill did not have the best memory when it came to dates. God Bless IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7932. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Ron Roizen on Stigma at Points From: Regina Tierney . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/15/2011 6:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is an AMAZING piece. Thanks to Trysh Travis for re-posting. Thanks to Ron Roizen for his thinking and writing. Riveting. Regina Tierney rtierney@earthlink.net 203-874-4937 646-675-1491 www.rtierneydigital.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7933. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: John Zug and why the Washingtonian movement failed From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/15/2011 7:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Members Can anyone recommend a good book regarding this movement; from its birth through "death?" In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7934. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: John D Rockefeller dinner From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/15/2011 7:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here is a digest of the dinner from Rockefeller's Archives. It shows the attendees of the dinner. http://aagso.org/1940/dinner_capture.pdf Hope this helps, Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7935. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Tom Powers and Bill Wilson and the writing of the 12 and 12 From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/16/2011 5:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII John can probably give you all the information publicly available -- he's very good if he doesn't mind my saying so -- or if you want more you might check with mdingle76@yahoo.com (mdingle76 at yahoo.com), Matt Dingle, an aahistorylover who spoke on Tom's editing Bill at the 2011 Multi-District History & Archives Gathering at Elizabethtown (PA) in October (John was there of course so he has that information also). Matt is Tom's son-in-law. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7936. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill W. and the golf course at the Ekwanok Country Club From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/16/2011 4:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Patricia: I am familiar with the location & associations with the Eqinok Clob because I used to live across from it when I was a child. I've included some of this in my new book about AA which is now at the publisher. 1. As we know, the large Burnham estate in Manchester VT was directly across the main road in Manchester Village. Bill' father-in-law, Dr Clark Burnham, was one of the founders of that Club. As such, Bill had intimate knowledge after marrying into the Burnham family in 1918. Also, Bill as a child knew about this club since Bill's family home in East Dorset was just up the main road about 8 miles. There is another golf links just up the street named the Equinox Club (associated with the Equinox Hotel). Just about all of the land east of Manchester Village is used for those two clubs. They are still doing business today. 2. One of the men I interviewed during my book research, Fred G, used to caddy at that Club and he remembered seeing the airplane carrying Bill and Ebby fly over on its decent into the new Manchester airport which Bill told about on several occasions. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7937. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Tom Powers and Bill Wilson and the writing of the 12 and 12 From: Ernie Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/16/2011 8:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is a DVD of Susan Cheever interviewing Tom Powers. I am pretty sure that one copy of it is at Stepping Stones. May I suggest that anyone interested in the relationship between Bill Wilson and Tom Powers is well advised to watch that interview? ernie kurtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7938. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Tom Powers and Bill Wilson and the writing of the 12 and 12 From: Fred David Levine . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/16/2011 10:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I googled Susan Cheever interview of Tom Powers and didn't come up with anything beyond some text... is there a way to watch the video other than going to Stepping Stones? Fred IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7939. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill W. and the golf course at the Ekwanok Country Club From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/16/2011 5:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I can't tell you much about Bill's acquaintanceship with Ekwanok (in Manchester NH), but I can tell you a little about Ekwanok (tho' I've never played it or even walked it). The Ekwanok CC was established in 1899, the course dating from 1900: it is a Walter Travis course (with the Scotsman Dunn's assistance) and perhaps the first first-class U. S. course (tho' a little rough in places, like the Travis-Dunn Myopia, which I have walked on though not played). By 1911, according to a letter from Edward Church Orvis (who ran the Equinox House, Manchester's premium hotel -- 50 to 100 arrivals/departures per day), Ekwanok was the summer (vacation) course of choice in the United States -- "finest summer resort golf links in the U. S. and patronized by all the crack players" according to E. C. Orvis -- and thus I think symbolic or representative of the summer people in Bill's mind. After Francis Ouimet won the U. S. Amateur there (was it in 1914?), following up his U. S. Open victory in 1913, the course has never had another USGA event -- but for a brief time in Bill's childhood and youth it was the premier resort course in the country and possibly the finest course, and its players (including the amateur Travis) well up among the wealthy. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7940. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: meeting formats From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/17/2011 11:26:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My experience is that it is rather common to ask if anyone has a problem and needs special time at the start of a speaker or book study meeting. It's thought that at discussion meetings they will have a chance to share. If anyone speaks up about needing special time, then one or two folks from the meeting take them aside [to another room, or outside] and they have a mini-meeting.This is based on experience in Texas and North Carolina. John wrote: > Have heard "does anyone need special time" or its equivalent in several meetings in southern Arizona at end of the meeting before closing. > > Gess > > . . . . > > On 10/10/2011 12:42 PM, gadgetsdad wrote: > > In my locality -- St.Cloud, Minnesota -- I attend 4 meetings a week. Each one has a different format .... > > [My fourth meeting] Back to Basics does How it Works and the Traditions and asks if anyone needs special time before the meeting, starts and closes with the Lord's Prayer. This question "Does anyone need special time?" seems to be a localism since I have never heard it asked at any of the meetings in Minnesota or the other 13 states where I have attended meetings. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7941. . . . . . . . . . . . John Zug and why the Washingtonian movement failed From: Mike Portz . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/17/2011 5:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There are many reasons that the Washingtonian Temperance Society failed in a short 10 year period of relevant existence.I believe all of the reasons were probably of equal or "near" equal importance. If you are interested in what these reasons were, just "Google up "Washington Temperance Society" on the Internet and you will find a multitude of information. Or, if you have access to "The A.A. Grapevine, Inc." digital archives at the AA.org website. You will find at least 5 articles that give quite a bit of information on this subject. I do want to share a point that is significant to me, that is not mentioned on many of the articles written about the Washington Temperance Society. From the very start, when they were formed by six men who drank at the same bar, they were never close to being a fellowship of solely real "alcoholics". In fact, I have read in several articles that only somewhere between 10-30 percent were "real alcoholics." Most estimates/guesses were nearer to the 10-15% range. The quantity varies because different people have different guesses on what is actually correct. All that was necessarry to attain membership was that a person who no longer wanted to drink (on the day he signed the pledge), sign the pledge. The rules of membership varied from city to city and broadened as time passed. Estimates of how many "members" there really were range from 100,000 to over 300,000. All would agree that the number of "real"alcohoics" who were members was way less then, at most, 1/4 of their "counted" membership. So membership "estimates" can be very misleading. Included in the figures were many people who drank for a very short period of time, drank only occasionally, did not affect their lives in a devastating way, drank moderately, rarely drank, did not have an "obsession of the mind" nor "a allergy of the body," etc. etc. Many, many "normies" as we now call theim. In the days of its "Washington Temperance Society's" existense it was very popular/trendy to sign "temperance pledges" in order to please (or just get them off your back) your wife, parents, boss, children, preacher, doctor, etc. add infinitum. IBecause of this many members only atttended large gatherings/meetings on the day they signed the pledge. There was only a small period of time, and in only a few locations (Baltimore, Washington DC, Boston, New York, Philedelphia, Cleveland) that scheduled meetings had any type of signifigant numbers. Most gatherings were monthly to yearly ,and for a few years these did attract large numbers of people. They would have inspirational "circuit" speakers who traveled the country giveing convincing and probably heartfelt "sermons" on why everyone should quit drinking. They would tell their own ever so tragic stories and fire people up emotionally, so they would think, 'yes I agree that drinking really is no good. I would be better off never drinking again.' They would then sign the pledge and, in a vast majority of cases , would forget about the whole thing in a short period of time. Their "long time periods of consecutive sobriety" and certainly "long term recovery) were on the rare side when compared to the total membership figures they would announce in meetings. It has been said that these membership numbers were most often inflated as a method of trying to attract more members. I believe that the main reason A.A. is so often compared to the "Washingtonians" is most likely that, their really isn't any other comparable society to compare A.A. with by numbers of members and certainly not because of success in short, medium or long term society. Yes we have learned from the "Washington Temporance Society." But what we learned was that it certainly did not influence what Bill or Hank (To Employers) wrote in the Big Book. It is written A.A. history that Bill was not aware of the "Washingtonian" movement at all untill just prior to its publication in April 1939. I do belienve, but cannot offer written substance, that it probably influenced a very small amout of what he authored in our A.A. Traditions. Kindest regards in fellowship, Mike Portz mportz2000@yahoo.com Cell (702) 501-9551 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7942. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Tom Powers and Bill Wilson and the writing of the 12 and 12 From: Matt Dingle . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/15/2011 6:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Matt Dingle and Fred David Levine - - - - From: Matt Dingle (mdingle76 at yahoo.com) Fred, I can probably tell you what you want to know: 845-887-6575. Matt - - - - From: Fred David Levine (mbfdl at rcn.com) thanks... the Pittman book [AA The Way it All Began] is available on amazon... Fred ________________________________ Original question from: mbfdl (mbfdl at rcn.com) I've recently heard about Tom Powers and his relationship to Bill and the writing of the 12 and 12. Can you point me in the direction of historically accurate information about Tom, his relationship with Bill and the literature, and his break with Bill, along with the reasons for this? Thanks, Fred IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7943. . . . . . . . . . . . GSO response on their copyright policies From: Jim L . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/18/2011 12:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A short time ago I asked GSO about some topics which had been raised by members of this group. This is the response: Dear Jim: Warm greetings from the General Service Office of Alcoholics Anonymous! Your email was forwarded to me since it is my responsibility with guidance from Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. (AAWS) to respond to inquiries regarding A.A.'s intellectual property. AAWS has the responsibility of protecting A.A.'s copyrights as well as A.A.'s federally registered trademarks: "Alcoholics Anonymous and "A.A." Substantially all of the publications and other material produced by A.A.W.S. are protected by copyrights that have been registered. These publications and A.A.'s registered trademarks are valuable assets of the Fellowship of A.A. and are held for the benefit of A.A. as a whole. Therefore, A.A. entities are permitted to reprint the Steps, Traditions, and/or the Concepts, and to quote a phrase, sentence or brief paragraph excerpted from A.A. literature without a prior, written request to do so. When this occurs, the proper credit line should be included to ensure that the copyrights of A.A. literature are protected. On occasion, A.A. members have notified us of potential infringements of A.A.'s intellectual property. These notifications are examined on a case by case basis, and they are acted upon accordingly. Regarding the example you gave, there was no action on our part to request the removal of Ernie Kurtz's book As to what is posted on the Internet and based on A.A. Tradition, this office would not comment on an individual's opinions expressed through an outside entity or web site. We appreciate your inquiry in this matter and send along our good wishes. Sincerely, Darlene Smith Intellectual Property Administrator A.A. World Services, Inc. ----------------------------------------------- From: Sober186@aol.com Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 To: Publicinfo Subject: Curious I have been following with interest recent published stories in general interest media about internal AA rifts. Now on a site called "AA History Lovers" I saw the following. "We are going to be putting up links to some historically controversial material, which Charlie Bishop has posted on the Hindsfoot website, about disputes over AA copyrights and trademarks. These are mostly historical but one of them current: people attempting to sell items on e-Bay being forced to remove these items by officials from the New York AA office because the words "Alcoholics Anonymous" or "AA" appear somewhere in the description of the product -- e.g. Ernie Kurtz's book Not-God being described as "a book on Alcoholics Anonymous history." Has GSO actually forced or tried to force removal of Items for sale on EBay, because of the reason given? I would like to know to set the record straight, at least on that web site. Thank you in advance Jim L. in Central Ohio IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7944. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why don''t you choose your own concept of God? From: awuh1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/10/2011 2:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The initial subject of this section was about the question Ebby asked in Bill's story, "Why don't you choose your own concept of God?". The questioner asked if Ebbie came up with this on his own or if this was Oxford group orthodoxy. This idea is stated in various ways. God of your understanding choose your own concept of God Higher Power The basic notion is that our knowledge of God, is, by nature, imperfect. Each of us has a somewhat different notion of what God is ... and that's OK. We need to start somewhere. Just over a year ago, John Barton, (AAHL post #6930) suggested that the four hand written paragraphs of Bill's story, (not included in the original manuscript (OM) and containing Ebby's question) probably did not happen. I (like John) found myself feeling a bit disturbed by this notion. John's thesis was that these four paragraphs contained the most profound "truth" in Bill's story and that one does not tell their story without "this most profound truth." It was John's opinion that Ebby's question to Bill framed the "central theme of Bill's story," one that the story could not be told without. The idea that a founder of the program could have falsified his own story just didn't seem correct. Not that Bill was a saint, far from it, but there had been plenty of success in AA prior to the BB being written. There's also lots of reason to believe Ebby was exposed to the idea from Rev. Sam Shoemaker's influence on Oxford group members whose headquarters were in the basement of Calvary church (AAHL Message #7131). There was really no reason to be dishonest about a program that holds honesty so dear. I think the reason these paragraphs of his story were not originally included in his story has a different, and perhaps more plausible explanation. First of all I must disagree with the notion that Ebby's question: "Why don't you choose your own concept of God," represented the most profound truth of Bill's story. To my mind the most profound truth of Bill's story was that Bill found God by humbly offering himself to God . How Bill found God is important to understand. It's important to look at the period of time between his meeting with Ebby until just after his Towns hospitalization. I believe that during this time period Bill had two distinct religious experiences. The first was of an "educational variety" and the second was an "Act of Grace" in the form of his experience while in Towns hospital. The educational religious experience started when he saw Ebby. Ebby was sober! This imparted a very strong message of hope. But, I believe, HOW Ebby got sober took a little longer to sink in. In his 1958 talk, Ebby remembers Bill saying, at the end of their visit and on the way to the subway, "I don't know what you got kid but you got somethin and I want to get it." This would certainly imply that Bill had not yet gotten it. It implies the icy intellectual mountain may have begun to melt but had not completely melted that night. I don't think Bill understood what fully happened in his meeting with Ebby until MUCH later. (Likely just prior to publication in conversation(s) with Frank Parkhurst.) I think the four inserted paragraphs are a description of Bill's reaction to his meeting with Ebby. A reaction that mostly followed in the wake of Ebby's departure, NOT a description of what took place during their meeting. These paragraphs characterize a conflict going on in Bill, a contradiction. This contradiction was manifesting itself throughout the period until Bill's final hospitalization. I believe his Towns hospital religious experience overshadowed everything else. That's what finally brought him to sobriety and made God unmistakably real to Bill. The powerful but more subtle effect of an idea like "God of your understanding" that started Bill on the "broad highway" paled in comparison. Bill's "sudden and profound" profound religious experience in Towns showed him a Christian God. His reaction to his experience, as Dov (AAHL Message #7804) points out, was something less than helpful to other alcoholics. "Believing so firmly that Christ can do anything, I had the unconscious conceit to suppose that He would do everything through me - right then and in the manner I chose." And also "In A.A.'s first years, I all but ruined the whole undertaking with this sort of unconscious arrogance. God as I understood Him had to be for everybody." Bill insisted that others have a God of HIS understanding because that God had been suddenly and profoundly made clear to him. His own conceit lead him to think he could impart his God to others through his own will. It's not that Bill failed to be exposed to the notion of a personal God and later decided to falsely add it to his story. I think it was Bill's powerful spiritual experience in combination with his arrogance that blinded him to how important his beginning on the broad highway had been. Finally, it's interesting to note what Bill says in the OM a few paragraphs following the inserted paragraphs. Regarding his actions after entering Towns hospital, he states, "There I humbly offered myself to God, as I then understood Him." This is the SECOND time a God of his understanding was referred to in Bill's story. In fact, a God of his understanding was there all along. _______________________________________________ John Barton wrote: > Fellow History Lovers, > > My intent is not to bring controversy, but I believe if we carefully review the facts on this question we will conclude that this event never occurred as described in Bill's Story. > > Below is the comparison between the original manuscript and the first printing, first edition big book of that portion of Bill's story that we are discussing. We can easily see that sometime prior to the publication of this first printing on April 10, 1939 but after the printing of the multilith manuscript in early1939 (produced for comments) that the following four paragraphs were added to Bill's Story: > > Despite the living example of my friend there remained in me the vestiges of my old prejudice. The word God still aroused a certain antipathy. When the thought was expressed that there might be a God personal to me this feeling was intensified. I didn't like the idea. I could go for such conceptions as Creative Intelligence, Universal Mind or Spirit of Nature but I resisted the thought of a Czar of the Heavens, however loving His sway might be. I have since talked with scores of men who felt the same way. > > My friend suggested what then seemed a novel idea. He said, "Why don't you choose your own conception of God?" > > That statement hit me hard. It melted the icy intellectual mountain in whose shadow I had lived and shivered many years. I stood in the sunlight at last. > > It was only a matter of being willing to believe in a power greater than myself. Nothing more was required of me to make my beginning. I saw that growth could start from that point. Upon a foundation of complete willingness I might build what I saw in my friend. Would I have it? Of course I would! > > I draw your attention to the use of italics in the second and fourth paragraphs. Bill and or the editors obviously wished to place emphasis on the importance of Ebby's advice as well as the far reaching conclusion he (Bill) reached as the result of his hearing and considering this proposal. In all of Bill's Story the only other occasion of adding emphasis is when he documents his profound reaction to Ebby's phone call and his having stopped drinking: "He was sober" > > The use of italics is obviously meant to indicate the absolute significance of these statements and events. They now become the central theme of Bill's story, the how and why, the coup de grace, the moral of the story, the punch line, the chorus, the crescendo. It would certainly be impossible to tell the story without them would it not? If these things, (icy mountains melting, finally standing in the sunlight i.e. "psychic change") had actually happened to you could you possibly re-tell your story without them? Of course not! > > It seems to me the whole point of telling the story would now be to reveal what Ebby said and its profound effect on Bill, initiating the process, (that was completed in Towns), the "psychic change" (I stood in the Sunlight at last). For my thinking, the reason these paragraphs are not contained in the earlier version of Bill's story is because it probably never happened as written. Had it truly occurred it would have to have been included in the earlier version (original manuscript). You wouldn't report the story without its most profound "truth"! > > Of course Ebby would have come carrying the non-denominational Christian message; (surrender to Jesus Christ) what other message did the Oxford Groupers carry? Lois may have provided us the answer for the "message change" in Lois Remembers p.113 > > In a AAHL post # 4409 Bill Schaberg talks about the four inserted paragraphs that appear written by hand in the printers copy. It seems there were no notations in the manuscript to indicate the source or reason for the revision. Dr. James Wainwright Howard from Montclair, New Jersey (see AAHL post # 6026) may have been the culprit. As you know he suggested dozens of edits to soften the book and make it more suggestive (let him choose his own concept could have been his suggestion). Or it may have been needed to support the change "God as you understand him" as made first to step three and then later again to step eleven. The "committee" (Hank, Bill, Fitz, Ruth, Herb and possibly others) may have thought this change to the story would tie up the "loose ends" into one neat, credible package. By the way, in the tape recordings I have heard of Bill telling "the bed time story" I don't recall him ever saying that Ebby said to him "Why don't you choose your own concept. of God" That's not to say such doesn't exist but this merits a further look. Although Bill wrote it (or approved its inclusion if written by Hank or Ruth) for the big book he may have had trouble repeating that which wasn't true when telling his story. Quite "revealing" in Bill's autobiography (Bill W. My First Forty Years) there is no mention of it. I also seen to remember Mel B. saying Ebby could never recall the conversation in Bill's Kitchen other then they argued a bit over religion. > > God Bless, > John Barton > > P.S. I remember feeling a bit down when this first came to light in my mind but recalled how many have been helped by this statement, so I am not concerned about its historical accuracy. I believe its inclusion in the story was Providence. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7945. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: meeting formats From: Bryan S. Reid . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/17/2011 4:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Bryan Reid, Michael Dunn, rdberryarchitect, Jay Pees, and Pamela B. Tiger - - - - From: "Bryan S. Reid" (humblephoenix at gmail.com) Here in Arizona, it's common to hear at the beginning of a meeting something to the effect of "Does anyone have a problem or issue that may lead them to take a drink." If someone responds to it, depending on their problem or issue, it will either be the subject/theme of the meeting or an oldtimer or two may take them to another room to discuss it privately. Peace and serenity, Bryan - - - - From: Michael Dunn (mdshediac at yahoo.ca) Not the exact wording, but at many discussion meetings up here in Maritime Canada, the meeting preamble usually states something like "We'll save a few minutes towards the end of the meeting if there is anyone having a problem or would like to say something" Then towards the end of the meeting, the question is asked. Michael - - - - From: "Robert" (rdberryarchitect at sbcglobal.net) At our group in NW Arkansas, we always ask if anyone has anything that is affecting or enhancing their sobriety and need to share it. Even if it's in a big book or a 12x12 study, then the chair usually says that we can spend a few minutes discussing the problem. - - - - From: Jay Pees (racewayjay at gmail.com) I have often heard "Does anyone have a burning desire?" referring to someone who wants to add something at the very end. Somewhere I read that was originally asked early in a meeting meaning "does anyone have a burning desire *to drink*?" Anyone have any knowledge of that phrase? I am in northwest Pennsylvania. - - - - From: "Pamela B. Tiger" (maiasaura at charter.net) t said "this is based on experience in Texas and North Carolina." Where in NC? I'm in Western NC and I got sober on the Outer Banks, and have never heard of this. pamela IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7946. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: John D Rockefeller dinner From: stalban2001 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/16/2011 4:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Fascinating guest list. Wendell Wilkie but no one from the Roosevelt administration. Clarence Synder, Bill Wilson, and Bob Smith still breaking bread together. No women, not even Mrs. Pauline Sabin who surely knew Rockefeller and who was noted for her interest in causes related to alcohol. No clergy except Harry Emerson Fosdick. I'd love to know who turned Rockefeller down and why the Great Man himself didn't attend. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7947. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Recording of Amazing Grace from 1990 AA International From: J.BARRY MURTAUGH . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/16/2011 4:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From J. Barry Murtaugh, Joseph Nugent, pmds, and gadgetsdad - - - - From: "J.BARRY MURTAUGH" I was there. My suggestion is to contact GSO in NY and see if the recording of that meeting is available. bear - - - - From: Joseph Nugent I was there, great, the singer was blind. Joe - - - - From: pmds@aol.com I remember it was a young woman and she was blind ... not a dry eye in the house. - - - - From: gadgetsdad Check with taping services Like "Gopher State Tape Library." They swap recordings amongst themselves. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7948. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: John Zug and why the Washingtonian movement failed From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/16/2011 3:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Possibly this ought to be a private response, but Mr. Holbrook's letter was published here, so I am responding publicly. I can assure him that I am familiar with the passages he quotes, though it may be useful to have them collected together. If he reads what I wrote he will see that I diid not say Bill believed the WTS failed because of its split view on Abolition (as he correctly notes, Bill said the WTS might have survived that, by which, however it is obvious Bill did believe this to have been a difficulty). I'm sorry I didn't make my point clear. I can also assure him that I am as familiar as he with the difference between Abolition and Temperance. (I am, as it happens, a member of the American Historical Association, the Alcohol & Drug History Society, and the Society of Historians of the Early Republic [1790-1860], as well as a published author and editor in the field with a Ph.D. in Applied Social History -- which isn't necessarily relevant in this listserv generally but seems to me to be so here -- perhaps I'm wrong). One point I was making was that the WTS was a temperance society from the beginning -- it didn't become one. Another point was that Bill had various things he wanted to use the Washingtonians as an example against -- getting involved with alcohol policy was one (so he bent history to say the WTS became a temperance society), segregation (as a political issue) I believe was one (so he bent history to suggest Abolition -- a political cause -- split the society -- whose original members were in fact Unionists and Abolitionists or proto-Abolitionists), religion was one (so he declined to accept the ATU's bending of history). He could have argued, on the basis of the actual WTS record that they failed because they didn't have a big book (tho' John Zug's little book might have sufficed if he hadn't died) and that they failed because they started too much in the open and then went too much into the secret (while AA started pretty much in secret and then opened up). But those things had already happened when Bill came to learn about the Washingtonians. There will be a note connected with this in CULTURE ALCOHOL & SOCIETY QUARTERLY (Newletter of the Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown) in Vol. IV No 5 or Vol. IV No 6 fwiw. Sorry I wasn't clearer in my original remarks. > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > From: email@LaurenceHolbrook.com > Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 13:10:27 -0500 > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: John Zug and why the Washingtonian movement failed > > I didn't think Bill believed the WTS failed because of the Abolition > issue: > > 12&12 pp 178 [Tradition Ten]: "Maybe the society could have survived the abolition controversy, but it didn't have a chance from the moment it determined to reform America's habits. When the Washingtonians became temperance crusaders, within a very few years they had completely lost their effectiveness in helping alcoholics." > > - - - - > > ABOLITION > the crusade for the abolition of slavery in the U.S. during the period leading up to the Civil War. > > TEMPERANCE > Temperance movements cover a wide range. They may urge only moderation or restrictions on the use of alcoholic beverages, or they may campaign for total bans on the drinking of alcohol. They may criticize excessive alcohol use, promote complete abstinence (teetotalism), or pressure the government to enact anti-alcohol legislation or a complete prohibition of alcohol. > > - - - - > > Original message from Jared Lobdell > (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) > > Agreed. The first GV piece on the Washingtonians took the official American Temperance Union (John Marsh) view that the WTS[B] failed because it wasn't true "Gospel" temperance (not "religious" enough). > > Bill rejected this but picked up on a very subsidiary issue (Abolition) to suggest the WTS[B] failed by splitting on Abolition (untrue in Baltimore in any case where the six founders were pretty uniformly anti-slavery and Unionists during the CW if they lived that long), presumably in order to suggest AA (pre-1954) shouldn't split itself on the question of segregation. > > Of course the Washington Temperance Society of Baltimore was a temperance society from the beginning. > > I don't know of any early indications that any early AAs saw the WTS[B] as a guide to what to do rather than what not to do, at least early on. A few members of the later Red and Blue Ribbon Movement ca 1880 did see things that way, and I think Bill did eventually come to know this, but the AA tendency was to use the Washingtonians simply as a cautionary tale, even while disagreeing on the specific nature of the caution. > > > ========================================== > THE RELEVANT SECTION OF THE 12 + 12 > on the Tenth Tradition: > > The Washingtonian Society, a movement among alcoholics which started in Baltimore a century ago, almost discovered the answer to alcoholism. At first, the society was composed entirely of alcoholics trying to help one another. The early members foresaw that they should dedicate themselves to this sole aim. In many respects, the Washingtonians were akin to A.A. of today. Their membership passed the hundred thousand mark. Had they been left to themselves, and had they stuck to their one goal, they might have found the rest of the answer. But this didn't happen. Instead, the Washingtonians permitted politicians and reformers, both alcoholic and nonalcoholic, to use the society for their own purposes. Abolition of slavery, for example, was a stormy political issue then. Soon, Washingtonian speakers violently and publicly took sides on this question. Maybe the society could have survived the abolition controversy, but it didn't have a chance from the moment it determined to reform America's drinking habits. When the Washingtonians became temperance crusaders, within a very few years they had completely lost their effectiveness in helping alcoholics. > > The lesson to be learned from the Washingtonians was not overlooked by > Alcoholics Anonymous. As we surveyed the wreck of that movement, early A.A. members resolved to keep our Society out of public controversy. Thus was laid the cornerstone for Tradition Ten: "Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy." > ========================================== IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7949. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: John Zug and why the Washingtonian movement failed From: Matt Dingle . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/18/2011 6:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here's an excerpt from the book the Answer to Addiction written mostly by John Burns (Tom Powers) on the Washingtonians. Since he would have had some part to play in the mention of the Washingtonians in the 12 & 12 it may have some significance. Besides, I've heard him [Tom] say that Wilson's interest in the Washingtonians was that it was just like AA -- essentially the same program when you boiled it down. Obviously, then his concern would have to be with what broke it apart or with its so-called "failing". The Answer to addiction has appeared at different times over the past 165 years. It has appeared in various circumstances under several different names. But it is not several different answers; it is one and the same answer. The essential signs by which the Answer may be known, the hallmarks by which it may be recognized under its various names, are these: (1) surrender to God and to the truth, (2) cleansing and amendment of life, and (3) helping others. These are the Common Denominators. To a jaded modern ear, these things will sound naive, platitudinous, moralistic, and (ugh!) religious. But whether you like the sound of them or not, the fact is that these three principles have enabled countless addicts to break out of the trap, to stay out, and to become fully reestablished in useful life. An equally striking fact is that where these principles are not used, the problem of addiction is back where it was before the Answer appeared -- nowhere. The recoveries by any and all other means are few indeed. So if you are an addict, or if you have any addicts among your family or friends, go back, take another look at these Common Denominators of the Answer, and make a mental note of them. They are bigger than anybody's mere likes or dislikes. They may save your life or the life of someone you love. By the early part of the nineteenth century, addiction had already become a worldwide sickness of extraordinary proportions, one of the greatest scourges of all times, just as deadly, even more degrading, and far more widespread than such horrors as leprosy and the Black Death. As if in response to the need, the Answer appeared for the first time in 1840. It emerged in an outburst of spiritual energy and activity called the Washingtonian Society. The first recovered-addict society of which we have any record appeared, flourished, and disappeared meteorically in the middle of the nineteenth century. It bore a powerful resemblance to Alcoholics Anonymous, and during the period of its existence it was spectacularly successful. The Washingtonian movement was launched in Baltimore, Maryland, in April, 1840, by six drunks who signed, and kept, pledges of total abstinence. The original members were a tailor, a silversmith, a coachmaker, two blacksmiths, and a carpenter. The group met regularly, witnessing to their recoveries, and they were soon joined by others; within a year they had a sober membership of 1,000, and subsequent development was explosive; by 1844 the Washingtonians included 100,000 "reformed common drunkards" plus some 300,000 "common tipplers" who became total abstainers. And the growth continued from there. There are of course no reliable statistics, but it is clear that the number of recoveries involved was very large. The movement was based on six principles: (1) drunkards helping one another, (2) weekly meetings, (3) sharing of experience in the cleansing and amendment of life, (4) constant availability of fellowship with the group and its members, (5) reliance upon God and the truth, and (6) total abstinence from alcohol. Before 1840 there had been very few recoveries from alcohol addiction. The malady was destructive of body and soul, and the two or three out of a hundred who recovered did so by means which nobody, including the recoverees, well understood or could apply to the desperate needs of the ninety-seven or ninety-eight out of a hundred who floundered to their miserable deaths in the grip of the affliction. Therefore the event of 1840 marked a crucial turning point in human affairs. It was historic in a sense which even continental discoveries and world wars are not. The Washingtonian movement itself did not long survive, but the Answer to which it bore witness did endure and, after a period of latency, has reappeared among us in greater power than ever before. The Washingtonian Society fell apart as dramatically as it had come together. Torn by religious squabbles, involvement with the temperance movement, political divisions, and the professionalization of some of the members, the movement by 1848 had ceased to exist, except for some declining activity around Boston. It would be many years, until the appearance of Alcoholics Anonymous, before the power of "one recovering drunk talking to another" would again be widely available to alcoholics in their attempts to achieve recovery. The Answer reappeared in the early twentieth century in the Oxford Group, passing by direct communication in 1935 to a world-wide influence in Alcoholics Anonymous, and thence to Narcotics Anonymous, All Addicts Anonymous, and many others. The chances are you never heard of the Washingtonians. And probably you have heard little if anything about the Oxford Group. Alcoholics Anonymous of course you do know about, and probably some of the other Anonymous Fellowships. But these things are of remarkable significance for modern man. There is more than meets the eye of a casual observer. This sequence of movements is a phenomenon of extraordinary importance, because it is the trace in history of the definitive solution of one of the worst problems of the present era. The solution works wherever it is sincerely applied. It has worked no further than it has in our society because it has been no further applied. Please notice what the chroniclers of our age have ignored but what is nevertheless clearly a fact: These various movements all have been marked by the great Common Denominators. These several societies all are the vehicles of one and the same influence, operating under the same set of principles. And this influence and these principles are actually, demonstrably, provably, historically, and obviously the Answer to addiction. The Answer has shown itself in our times, but it is not a product of our times or of our culture. Indeed the Answer has had to do its lifesaving work in the teeth of a culture which despises and rejects its very essentials. The current culture is atheistic, materialistic, cynical, sophisticated, sensate, and self-centered. The Answer to addiction is God-centered, truth-centered, spiritual, simple, altruistic, and self-sacrificing. Let there be no ambiguity as to what is being said here. The Answer to addiction -- that which cures the disease and releases the prisoner where nothing else can -- is the grace of God. It is the truth of God, the power of God, the Spirit of God. If you want a one-word equivalent, the Answer is God. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7950. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: John Zug and why the Washingtonian movement failed From: Jay Pees . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/18/2011 9:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Jay Pees and Shakey Mike Gwirtz - - - - From: Jay Pees (racewayjay at gmail.com) Mike's info matches what I have learned about them. Lincoln apparently gave a speech to them at Springfield in the early days of 1842, Washington's birthday. He apparently also joined although he apparently never had a drinking problem at all. The speech is available here: http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/temperance.htm - - - - From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) The Washingtonians were initially formed to be solely for alcoholics.They had closed meetings. That's where AA got the idea for closed meetings. In Bill Whites' book "Slaying The Dragon', on page 9 it states,"because of the interest in the meetings expressed by the general public,members of other temperance groups,and the clergy, the Washingtonians decided in November 1840 to hold public meetings in Addition to their membership meetings." It was then that the numbers became more non alcoholics than alcoholics. They began on April 2 1840 so for those first 9 months their fellowship was 100% alcoholic. The Washingtonian program is listed on page 10 of Bill White's book saying,"The Washingtonian program of recovery consisted of 1) public confession, 2) public commitment, 3) visits from older members 4)economic assistance, 5) continued participation in experience sharing, 6) acts of service towards other alcoholics, 7) sober entertainment." He lists eight reasons for their demise and gives credit to them for their many firsts. Their legacy included, " 1) the importance of maintaining a focus on the welfare and reformation of the individual alcoholic,2) the potential power of a personal and public commitment to total abstinence from alcohol,3) the benefit of regular sober fellowship for the newly recovering alcoholic 4) the power of experience sharing-the vivid recounting of the ways in which ones life was affected by drinking and the benefits that one received from sobriety. 5) the use of recovered alcoholics as charismatic speakers and in service work to other alcoholics.and 6) the use of a religious/spiritual foundation for sustained recovery (not part of the official program but incorporated by key Washingtonian leaders." Their decline shows the faults of their program that were later incorporated in to our traditions. Examples are highlighted by Mr White are"1) personal reformation movements may be exploited by outsiders and insiders for both ideological and personal gain. 2) Concerns with politics, leadership, publicity, and money can undermine and destroy personal reformation societies. 3) Addiction recovery movements are vulnerable to disruption when they focus on anything other than the personal reformation of their members.This personal recovery focus is best reflected in exclusivity of membership (addicts only) and in a refusal to become involved in political or professional debate. 4) Personal reformation movements can be harmed by the indiscretions(relapses) of their members and leaders when such people are publicly identified with the movement. 50 Personal recovery may be initiated by a charismatic leader speaking to thousands,but personal recovery is best sustained through personal interaction in small groups." This then laid the way for the temperance societies and reform movements that followed. Jared mentioned the Sons of Temperance and the Blue Ribbon Clubs and they followed the Washingtonians. Perhaps he can elaborate more on those societies. I know that Bill had access to the Town's Hospital library and that contained there were many publications in addition to the books. Does anyone have a list of what was contained in that library? Bill had access to it during the early part of the O. G. alcoholic squad days when he frequented the hospital looking for prospects that included Henry P and JH Fitzhugh M. He probably had talks with Dr Silkworth and Charles Towns who were both knowledgeable on the Washingtonian movement and what then followed. Towns Treatment for alcoholics was 4 to 5 days and patients were not allowed contact with any other patient. It was a rich mans hospital to "dry out" It allowed for plenty of time to read between the hourly treatments. Slaying the Dragon- The History of Addiction Treatments and Recovery in America by Bill White is a "must have" on the library of anyone studying the History of Alcoholism. ISBN 0-938475-07-X It is available at Lighthouse Institute 720 West Chestnut St Bloomington IL 67101 or at _www..chestnut.org_ (http://www..chestnut.org) Yours in Service Shakey Mike Gwirtz Hardcore AA Group Eddystone PA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7951. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: [Pet peeve rant] Why don''t you choose your own concept of God? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/18/2011 3:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 14:55 11/10/2011, awuh1 wrote: >The initial subject of this section was about the question Ebby >asked in Bill's story, "Why don't you choose your own concept of >God?". The questioner asked if Ebbie came up with this on his own >or if this was Oxford group orthodoxy. This idea is stated in various ways. >God of your understanding >choose your own concept of God >Higher Power There is no name associated with this post. He doesn't write very clearly, either. I am having a hard time following his reasoning. Or maybe he is just wrong. One half serious take on Ebby's statement is he had reached a standoff with Bill about God. Frustrated, he said, "Well, get your own concept of God," and it took off from there. Makes sense to me. Loving Kentucky. T IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7952. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why don''t you choose your own concept of God? From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/18/2011 3:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Its not a football game with the winning quarterback giving thanks while the losers curse God, or wonder how a show-off could be better than them. AA says the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. The forward to the first edition still is in the big book and it says the only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop drinking. Our steps are still only suggested. The preamble follows the saying of the only requirement for membership being a desire to stop drinking. Page 164 of Alcoholics Anonymous still says. "Our book is meant to be suggestive only". Bill W said our steps are only suggestions, and the twelve traditions contain no you musts, plenty of we oughts, but never you must. That is most likely why it became God as you understand him. This thought could be checked by comparing the original manuscript and the first edition of Alcoholics Anonymous. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7953. . . . . . . . . . . . What 2 books did Bill walk out with from Towns Hospital? From: hphopeandjoy . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/17/2011 9:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I think I read in something from the New York GSO and/or AAWS, that when Bill Wilson was released from Towns hospital the last time, he carried two books. Can anyone give me the reference for this and the identify of the books? I believe the wording is: "... he left with two books..." Any knowledge as to which 2 books they were? was one William James' Varieties of Religious Experience? Matt Z. - - - - FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR: Pass It On p. 124 refers to Bill W. having been given a copy of William James' book. - - - - SEE ALSO THE MESSAGE FROM MATT D: Message #5955 from (mdingle76 at yahoo.com) Re: St. Francis, Bill W., and Alcoholics Anonymous Dear AAHL group: I .... thought I'd mention a little about Bill's love for Francis (as told to me by Tom Powers — 12&12 editor/co-author). Tom said that after Bill had his famous spiritual experience in Towns that Ebby went back to the Oxford Group telling them about what happened to Bill and asked what he should do to help him. They said bring him 2 books. Many people in AA know that [one of them was] The Varieties of a Religious Experience ..., but many people don't know that Ebby also brought Bill another book: The Little Flowers of St. Francis. ============================================= TWO OF THE VERSIONS OF THE LITTLE FLOWERS OF ST. FRANCIS ONLINE ARE: http://www.ewtn.com/library/mary/flowers.htm http://www.ccel.org/ccel/ugolino/flowers.html http://www.ccel.org/ccel/ugolino/flowers.toc.html ============================================= It's very believable to think that this event (getting that book at that time) lead to Bill's love for Francis. The Little Flowers of St. Francis has a number of little stories, and many of them telling of sudden mystical/spiritual experience. It is known that Francis had a Bill W. experience (or really the other way around) and then suffered from depression afterwards. Both Tom and Bill were fascinated with the nature and after-effects of spiritual experience (for they both had this kind of experience themselves and they both had years of what we would now be mislabel as "mental illness" that followed). I don't have the book "Pass it on" in front of me but Tom Powers quotes Francis in it saying something like, "After my conversion, I've never been well." Bill also studied Francis on the money front — using the modern day Franciscan virtue of "poverty" for the society of Alcoholics Anonymous. One last thing that Tom said about Bill and St. Francis is that Bill used to say that Francis was the patron saint of the society of Alcoholics Anonymous. Francis may be more important to our movement than we know? Matt D. (AAHL member) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7954. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Tom Powers and Bill Wilson and the writing of the 12 and 12 From: Ernie Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/18/2011 3:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Matt, How about making it available to the whole AAHL list? ernie kurtz ========================================= > From: Matt Dingle > (mdingle76 at yahoo.com) > > Fred, > I can probably tell you what you want to know: 845-887-6575. > Matt ========================================= Original question from: mbfdl (mbfdl at rcn.com) I've recently heard about Tom Powers and his relationship to Bill and the writing of the 12 and 12. Can you point me in the direction of historically accurate information about Tom, his relationship with Bill and the literature, and his break with Bill, along with the reasons for this? Thanks, Fred IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7955. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. at Plattsburg NY From: ron.fulkerson@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/18/2011 5:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII THE REVEILLE (a monthly Magazine published by the Norwich cadets) states that W. G. Wilson left for ROTC training at Plattsburg, New York on May 14, 1917. He was listed as a member of the sophomore class with the rank of corporal. This information appeared on pages 27 and 28 of the publication ... ronf IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7956. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Recording of Amazing Grace from 1990 AA International From: buckjohnson41686 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/19/2011 1:29:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would suggest that you look at http://www.dianeschuur.com/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diane_Schuur among other places. - - - - FROM THE MODERATOR G.C. You might see if this YouTube video sounds something like what you heard: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5jCHiBO9L8 - - - - In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "lippee6" wrote: > > I am looking to obtain a recording from the The Ninth A.A. International Convention in Seattle, Washington, 1990. At one of the big meetings, a woman sang "Amazing Grace." I would like to get a recording of this meeting with this song as a gift for my Sponsor. Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas of where I might be able to get a copy? > > Many thanks for any suggestions. > > Laura P > > > (lippee6 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7957. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill and Silkie at Plattsburgh at the same time 1917 approx? From: Michael Margetis . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/18/2011 4:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From what I've read in "Bill W. My First 40 Years" and also in Dr. Silkworth's biography (by Dale Mitchell) the answer is, yes, they were most definitely in Plattsburg at the same time. Bill was there briefly in the late Spring (May) of 1917. Dr. Silkworth was there longer as you already know. I've never read or heard anything that would lead me to believe they met. Of course, was it "possible" ..... well ..... sure ... do I/we have verifiable evidence? I sure don't. Mike Margetis Brunswick, Maryland --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "B" wrote: > > From what I can gather, Dr. Silkworth was on the Psychiatric staff of the US Army hospital in Plattsburgh NY 1917-1919. I also understand that Bill W was attending advance training at Plattsburgh in 1917. I am wondering if their time overlapped? Was it possible they stood in line at the commissary or the PX or their cars passed each other, not knowing what history had in store? Possibly said hi to each other without even knowing what was to come? I am fascinated by this.... anybody have corroboration of dates? Thx IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7959. . . . . . . . . . . . Cora Finch, Stellar Fire: Carl Jung and Rowland Hazard From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/20/2011 12:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Cora Finch has graciously allowed us to post, on the Hindsfoot site, a copy of her formative article "Stellar Fire: Carl Jung, a New England Family, and the Risks of Anecdote," which gives a detailed account of Rowland Hazard's life and the circumstances under which he went to Carl Jung for treatment in 1926. [This is the corrected version. With profound apologies for putting the date down wrong and totally confusing things when this message was first posted. How embarrassing!] See a third of the way down the page on http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html and then go to http://hindsfoot.org/jungstel.pdf and http://hindsfoot.org/jungnote.pdf RICHARD M. DUBIEL -- It was Richard M. Dubiel, in his book The Road to Fellowship: The Role of the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club in the Development of Alcoholics Anonymous (2004), who first showed from a detailed analysis of correspondence and financial records in the Hazard family papers that there was no time in Rowland Hazard's busy schedule during 1931 in which he could have spent an extensive period in Switzerland undergoing treatment by Carl Jung. But if he could not have gone to Jung in 1931, the date given in the older AA literature, then did he in fact undergo treatment by Jung at all? Was the whole story only a myth? Subsequently two researchers, Finch and Bluhm, working completely independently, established that Rowland arrived in Zurich in May 1926 -- five years earlier -- and wrote back to his family about how well his sessions with Jung were progressing. It was only the date that was wrong, not the fundamental fact of his ongoing treatment by Jung. CORA FINCH -- in 2006 wrote a long account of Rowland Hazard's life and struggles with alcoholism which not only established 1926 as the date of his treatment by Carl Jung, but also put this event securely in the context of the Hazard family's history. See Cora Finch, "Stellar Fire: Carl Jung, a New England Family, and the Risks of Anecdote" at http://hindsfoot.org/jungstel.pdf Also see Cora Finch, "Additional Notes to Stellar Fire" at http://hindsfoot.org/jungnote.pdf including 1. Remarks from Dr. Jung 2. Correspondence with Bill Wilson 3. Loose Ends 4. About William James AMY COLWELL BLUHM, Ph.D. -- working totally independently, also discovered the answer to the dating problem in the Hazard family papers and published her article "Verification of C.G. Jung's analysis of Rowland Hazard and the history of Alcoholics Anonymous" in the American Psychological Association's journal History of Psychology in November 2006. The correct date for Rowland's treatment by Jung and the way this encounter with the great psychiatrist fit into the story of Rowland's life was now established beyond a reasonable doubt. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7961. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Recording of Amazing Grace from 1990 AA International From: Joseph Nugent . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/19/2011 4:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was there, great, the singer was blind, I could have been wrong. This singer was born and lived in Seattle and her father was blind, please listen to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVpxfDgVaec Joe IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7962. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why don''t you choose your own concept of God? From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/18/2011 6:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thanks for this post. A few notes ... Bill was very capable of not only exaggerating a story but really taking it to "the limit". Nell Wing often said this. Bill also knew his audience and would change words, themes, conclusions to suit - a great talent, perhaps a gift from God, to reach the most of us. I seem to remember Charlie P. describing Jesus in those terms, his point being all great teachers have that ability. Bill was no exception. A "white lie" to help the agnostics come on board falls far short of "falsifying" his story. The strongest point I tried to make is that you never heard Bill tell that story again (icy mountains melting - standing in the sunlight at last). This would have been the beginning or a significant part of his spiritual experience, "I stood in the sunlight at last" ... how can you tell or more importantly re-tell the story without it? I had a similar spiritual experience and speak about it .... more like I am compelled to speak about it ... quite often. None of Bill's subsequent talks or AACOA or the recorded tapes from 1954 which became Bill's autobiography (Bill W. My First Forty Years) spoke of this monumental mental change in Bill's attitude that occurred during the talk with Ebby. I have to wonder why? Lastly, I think my assertion was that "it never occurred as described in Bill's Story." The idea of God as you understand him was well known to Ebby and Shep both of whom had numerous talks with Bill during that November - December period when Bill sobered up. He surely was exposed to this idea (of course it was Sam Shoemaker's great teaching) at some time during this period. Regardless, including this "suggestion" in the story was in my opinion, as Bill would say, "a Ten Strike." God Bless John Barton _______________________________________________ In an earlier message, John Barton wrote: > Fellow History Lovers, > > My intent is not to bring controversy, but I believe if we carefully review the facts on this question we will conclude that this event never occurred as described in Bill's Story. > > Below is the comparison between the original manuscript and the first printing, first edition big book of that portion of Bill's story that we are discussing. We can easily see that sometime prior to the publication of this first printing on April 10, 1939 but after the printing of the multilith manuscript in early 1939 (produced for comments) that the following four paragraphs were added to Bill's Story: > > Despite the living example of my friend there remained in me the vestiges of my old prejudice. The word God still aroused a certain antipathy. When the thought was expressed that there might be a God personal to me this feeling was intensified. I didn't like the idea. I could go for such conceptions as Creative Intelligence, Universal Mind or Spirit of Nature but I resisted the thought of a Czar of the Heavens, however loving His sway might be. I have since talked with scores of men who felt the same way. > > My friend suggested what then seemed a novel idea. He said, "Why don't you choose your own conception of God?" > > That statement hit me hard. It melted the icy intellectual mountain in whose shadow I had lived and shivered many years. I stood in the sunlight at last. > > It was only a matter of being willing to believe in a power greater than myself. Nothing more was required of me to make my beginning. I saw that growth could start from that point. Upon a foundation of complete willingness I might build what I saw in my friend. Would I have it? Of course I would! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7963. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why don''t you choose your own concept of God? From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/18/2011 4:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here is the original manuscript and the first edition below that. I could not copy it directly but in the first edition his friend was supposed to have said, "Why don't you chose your own concept of God". This statement was not in the manuscript version. http://silkworth.net/originalmanuscript/chapter1.html#billsstory He looked straight at me. Simply, but smilingly, he said, "I've got religion." I was aghast. So that was it - last summer an alcoholic crackpot; now, I suspected, a little cracked about religion. He had that starry-eyed look. Yes, the old boy was on fire all right. But bless his heart, let him rant! Besides, my gin would last longer than his preaching. But he did no ranting. In a matter of fact way he told how two men had appeared in court, persuading the judge to suspend his commitment. They had told of a simple religious idea and a practical program of action. That was two months ago and the result was self evident. It worked! He had come to pass his experience along to me - if I cared to have it. I was shocked, but interested. Certainly I was interested. I had to be, for I was hopeless. He talked for hours. Childhood memories rose before me. I could almost hear the sound of the preacher's voice as I sat, on still Sundays, way over there on the hillside; there was that proffered temperance pledge I never signed; my grandfather's good natured contempt of some church folk and their doings; his insistence that the spheres really had their music; but his denial of the preacher's right to tell him how he must listen; his fearlessness as he spoke of these things just before he died; these recollections welled up from the past. They made me swallow hard. That war-time day in old Winchester Cathedral came back again. I had always believed in a power greater than myself. I had often pondered these things. I was not an atheist. Few people really are, for that means blind faith in the strange proposition that this universe originated in a cipher, and aimlessly rushes nowhere. My intellectual heroes, the chemists, the astronomers, even the evolutionists, suggested vast laws and forces at work. Despite contrary indications, I had little doubt that a mighty purpose and rhythm underlay all. How could there be so much of precise and immutable law, and no intelligence? I simply had to believe in a Spirit of the Universe, who knew neither time nor limitation. But that was as far as I had gone. With ministers, and the world's religions, I parted right there. When they talked of a God personal to me, who was love, superhuman strength and direction, I became irritated and my mind snapped shut against such a theory. To Christ I conceded the certainty of a great man, not too closely followed by those who claimed Him. His moral teaching - most excellent. For myself, I had adopted those parts which seemed convenient and not too difficult; the rest I disregarded. The wars which had been fought, the burnings and chicanery that religious dispute had facilitated, made me sick. I honestly doubted whether, on balance, the religions of mankind had done any good. Judging from what I had seen in Europe and since, the power of God in human affairs was negligible, the Brotherhood of Man a grim jest. If there was a Devil, he seemed the Boss Universal, and he certainly had me. But my friend sat before me, and he made the point-blank declaration that God had done for him what he could not do for himself. His human will had failed. Doctors had pronounced him incurable. Society was about to lock him up. Like myself, he had admitted complete defeat. Then he had, in effect, been raised from the dead, suddenly taken from the scrap heap to a level of life better than the best he had ever known! Had this power originated in him? Obviously it had not. There had been no more power in him than there was in me at that minute; and this was none at all. That floored me. It began to look as though religious people were right after all. Here was something at work in a human heart which had done the impossible. My ideas about miracles were drastically revised right then. Never mind the musty past; here sat a miracle directly across the kitchen table. He shouted great tidings. I saw that my friend was much more than inwardly reorganized. He was on a different footing. His roots grasped a new soil. Thus was I convinced that God is concerned with us humans, when we want Him enough. At long last I saw, I felt, I believed. Scales of pride and prejudice fell from my eyes. A new world came into view. The real significance of my experience in the Cathedral burst upon me. For a brief moment, I had needed and wanted God. There had been a humble willingness to have Him with me - and He came. But soon the sense of His presence had been blotted out by worldly clamors, mostly those within myself. And so it had been ever since. How blind I had been. At the hospital I was separated from alcohol for the last time. Treatment seemed wise, for I showed signs of delirium tremens. I have not had a drink since. There I humbly offered myself to God, as I then understood Him, to do with me as He would. I placed myself unreservedly under His care and direction. I admitted for the first time that of myself I was nothing; that without Him I was lost. I ruthlessly faced my sins and became willing to have my new-found Friend take them away, root and branch. My school mate visited me, and I fully acquainted him with my problems and deficiencies. We made a list of people I had hurt or toward whom I felt resentment. I expressed my entire willingness to approach these individuals, admitting my wrong. Never was I to be critical of them. I was to right all such matters to the utmost of my ability. I was to test my thinking by the new God-consciousness within. Common sense would thus become uncommon sense. I was to sit quietly when in doubt, asking only for direction and strength to meet my problems as He would have me. Never was I to pray for myself, except as my requests bore on my usefulness to others. Then only might I expect to receive. But that would be in great measure. My friend promised when these things were done I would enter upon a new relationship with my Creator; that I would have the elements of a way of life which answered all my problems. Belief in the power of God, plus enough willingness, honesty and humility to establish and maintain the new order of things, were the essential requirements. Simple, but not easy; a price had to be paid. It meant destruction of self-centeredness. I must turn in all things to the Father of Light who presides over us all. These were revolutionary and drastic proposals, but the moment I fully accepted them, the effect was electric. There was a sense of victory, followed by such a peace and serenity as I had never known. There was utter confidence. I felt lifted up, as though the great clean wind of a mountain top blew through and through. God comes to most men gradually, but His impact on me was sudden and profound. For a moment I was alarmed, and called my friend, the doctor, to ask if I were still sane. He listened in wonder as I talked. Finally he shook his head saying, "Something has happened to you I don't understand. But you had better hang on to it. Anything is better than the way you were." The good doctor now sees many men who have such experiences. He knows they are real. While I lay in the hospital the thought came that there were thousands of hopeless alcoholics who might be glad to have what had been so freely given me. Perhaps I could help some of them. They in turn might work with others. My friend had emphasized the absolute necessity of my demonstrating these principles in all my affairs. Particularly was it imperative to work with others, as he had worked with me. Faith without works was dead, he said. And how appallingly true for the alcoholic! For if an alcoholic failed to perfect and enlarge his spiritual life through work and self sacrifice for others, he could not survive the certain trials and low spots ahead. If he did not work, he would surely drink again, and if he drank, he would surely die. Then faith would be dead indeed. With us it is just like that. http://silkworth.net/originalmanuscript/chapter1.html#billsstory IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7964. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Tom Powers and Bill Wilson and the writing of the 12 and 12 From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/18/2011 6:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I looked it up and found all the topics covered in Cheever's book. I highly recommend all "historians" friends of Bill, detractor's of Bill and those who are just plain "indifferent" to Bill, read her biography. It is packed with excellent AA history. God Bless --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Ernie Kurtz wrote: > > Matt, > > How about making it available to the whole AAHL list? > > ernie kurtz > > > ========================================= > > From: Matt Dingle > > (mdingle76 at yahoo.com) > > > > Fred, > > I can probably tell you what you want to know: 845-887-6575. > > Matt > ========================================= > > > Original question from: mbfdl (mbfdl at rcn.com) > > I've recently heard about Tom Powers and his relationship to Bill and the writing of the 12 and 12. Can you point me in the direction of historically accurate information about Tom, his relationship with Bill and the literature, and his break with Bill, along with the reasons for this? > Thanks, > Fred > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7965. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What 2 books did Bill walk out with from Towns Hospital? From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/18/2011 5:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The second book was the Little Flowers of St. Francis. The idea for the type of books given to new converts can be found in H. A. Walter's Soul Surgery. See below excerpt from Chapter II of The Golden Road of Devotion. Dr. Buchman puts the matter in the simplest terms, only three essential factors are involved in conversion -- Sin, Jesus Christ, and (the result) a Miracle. Conviction of sin is a matter of the sinner's heart. Conversion is a matter both of the heart and the will, and if there is anything we can do to assist him to make the great venture of faith, once he has realized his sins at the foot of the Cross and expressed the desire to be cleansed, it is, first of all, to give him autobiographical writings like those of St. Augustine, Brother Lawrence, and Tolstoy, and illustrations of others who have so ventured with momentous results; and, secondly, to help him toward greater decision of character through the reading of such pamphlets as Foster's Decision of Character; King's Fight for Character; Mott and Eddy's Constructive Suggestions for Character Building; and the chapter on 'Decision' in Speer's Things that Make a Man.*41 *Upon hearing of Bill's "white light" experience, Ebby left Bill and returned soon after with two books, The Varieties of Religious Experience by William James and The Little Flowers of Saint Francis. The method of assistance outlined here in Soul Surgery was followed by Ebby as directed by the New York Oxford Group.42 41 42 "Tom (Powers) said that after Bill had his famous spiritual experience in Towns that Ebby went back to the Oxford Group telling them about what happened to Bill and asked what he should do to help him. They said bring him 2 books. Many people in AA know that this is when the book The Varieties of a Religious Experience hit the scene, but many people don't know that Ebby also brought Bill another book: The Little Flowers of St.Francis ." See AAHL Message # 5955 PS Jared has told me that Shep Cornell played a hand in bringing these books along with bby back to Bill in Towns. God Bless John B IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7966. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What 2 books did Bill walk out with from Towns Hospital? From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/22/2011 5:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The key to the paragraph below is of course "...first of all, to give him autobiographical writings like those of St. Augustine, Brother Lawrence, and Tolstoy,"....so they brought him the Little Flowers of St. Francis..... "...and illustrations of others who have so ventured with momentous results;"....and also The Varieties of Religious Experience by William James. Both books were key to Bill's understanding his conversion and the beginnings of a formula for AA Love and Service and Bill's recovery from a hopeless state of mind and body. Happy Thanksgiving - from a grateful, recovered, alcoholic. John B _____________________________ Dr. Buchman puts the matter in the simplest terms, only three essential factors are involved in conversion -- Sin, Jesus Christ, and (the result) a Miracle. Conviction of sin is a matter of the sinner's heart. Conversion is a matter both of the heart and the will, and if there is anything we can do to assist him to make the great venture of faith, once he has realized his sins at the foot of the Cross and expressed the desire to be cleansed, it is, first of all, to give him autobiographical writings like those of St. Augustine, Brother Lawrence, and Tolstoy, and illustrations of others who have so ventured with momentous results; and, secondly, to help him toward greater decision of character through the reading of such pamphlets as Foster's Decision of Character; King's Fight for Character; Mott and Eddy's Constructive Suggestions for Character Building; and the chapter on 'Decision' in Speer's Things that Make a Man.*41 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7967. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: meeting formats From: Pamela B. Tiger . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/18/2011 5:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Oh, that. We do have those kinds of things. As part of the beginning schpiel out here in western North Carolina, it is common to ask "Is there anyone here for their very first AA meeting ever? And if there is, we generally discuss the 1st step or what brought the rest of us to AA. Burning desire-- IME, that is asked at the end of a meeting for someone who really wanted to share and didn't get a chance to. Not about burning desire to drink, though that is a great idea! pamela in NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7968. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: John D Rockefeller dinner From: jayaa82@earthlink.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/19/2011 3:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The list is below, this is much more complete than what was on the digest. By the way, the original typed digest is in the Rockefeller Archives I would be happy to post this if you would let me know how The Rockefeller Dinner Invitation List Donations resulting from the dinner Note ($ ) = Monies Donated [1] Riverside Church [2] Alcoholic Foundation & Rockefeller connections [3] AA Members [4] AA Friends Of 197 invitations, 61 attended. 165 Follow up letters with copy of Alcoholics Anonymous and a fund solicitation were sent. The result was 59 contributions totaling $5,090. ATTENDED DINNER Amos, Frank B [2] (Pres, The Daily Jeffersonian) Auchincloss, Gordon $25 Baker, Steven (Hon. Chair, Bank of Manhattan) $100 Blaine, James G Blaisdell, Dr. RE (Head Rockland State Hospital) Cabot, Godfrey L (Private Investor) $20 Chipman, A Leroy [2] Creamer, William G. (International Committee) $10 Cromwell, Lincoln (Pres, St. Luke’s Hospital) $100 C, Horace [3] Cushman, James S $50 Day, Benjamin M. [1] (Former US Commissioner immigration) $10 Donaldson, BR (Ford Motor Co.) Eldridge, Fred I (VP Mott Haven) $25 Fisher, Henry J (U. Hosp Fund) $25 Fosdick, Harry Emerson [1] (Head Pastor, Riverside Church) Garrett, Robert (Investment Banker) $25 Harbison, Albert (Pres. Agusan Coconut Co.) $25 Harbord, General James D (Chair RCA) Harrison, Leonard V [2] Houston, Buchanan (H.T. Carey, Joost & Patrick) $50 Jewett, Dr Frank B (Pres. Bell telephone Labs) $50 Kennedy, Dr Foster (Bellevue Hosp) Kellog, P. Klauder, Norman (Attorney) Kress, Samuel H. (Met Museum) $150 Lotte, C. Walter (National Silk Dying Co.) $25 M. Fitzhugh [3] Matthews, William H. Merrill, Edwin G. (Chair, Bank of NY) $15 Milliken, Dr Seth Morris, Dave H. (Lawyer) $100 Montague, Gilbert E. (Wrote Rise & Progress of Standard Oil) $15 Noyes, Charles F. (The “Dean” of NY real estate) $100 Pierson, Lewis E. (NY Chamber of Commerce) Richardson, Willard [2] Resor, Stanley $150 Riley, Dr. George $50 Rockefeller, Nelson Rodefer, CM (Pres. Rodefer Glass Co.) Rounds, Leslie R (Governor, Federal Reserve Bank) $15 R. William [3] R. Morgan [3] (AA Who did Heatter broadcast) Schurman, Jacob Gould Jr. (Chief Magistrate, NY City Courts) Schieffelin, Dr William J (Hampton Institute) $10 Scott, Albert L [1] (Pres., Riverside Church Trustees) $100 Sharpe, Dr DR Sherwood, Carlton M (Friend of Richardson, charitable fundraiser) Shaw, Robert A [2] (Lawyer) $100 Silkworth, Dr WD [4] Smith Dr Robert H [3] S. Clarence H [3] Speers, James M (Chair James McCutcheon & Co.) $10 S. Paul [3] Stockdale, Dr Allen A (Clergy; PR Staff Nat’l Assoc of Manufacturers) $10 Strong, Dr Leonard V Jr [4] T. Herbert F. [3] (Burt the Tailor) Thorne, Samuel (Episcopal leader) $50 Watson, Thomas J. (Chair, IBM) $250 Willkie, Wendell L (Commonwealth & Southern) Wilson, William [3] INVITED, DID NOT ATTEND Agnew, Cornelius R. Aldred, John E. (Pres. Aldred & Co.) Aldrich, Malcolm P Aldrich, Winthrop W (Chase Bank & JDR Jr Brother-in-Law) $10 Arkell, Bartlett Babson, Roger Baker, J. Stewart (Chair, Bank of Manhattan) Barnes, Fuller F. Bartlett, Arkell Batt, William (Pres., SKF Industries) Bell, William B (Pres., American Cyanmid Co.) $50 Bestor, Arthur E. Bliss, Cornelius N. (Philanthropist) $100 Blumenthal, George $250 Bristol, Henry P (Pres., Bristol-Myers) Bristol, William M Jr (VP., Bristol-Myers) Brown, John A $25 Brown, Thatcher W (Brown Brothers) Bruere, Henry (Pres., Bowery Savings Bank) Bulkey, Edwin Burgess, W Randolph (Chair., Nat’l City Bank) Carlisle, Floyd L (Chair., Consolidated Edison) Chapin, Simeon B (SD Chapin Co.) Chester, Colby M (Pres., General Foods) Childs, Eversley (Pres., Bon Amico) Cochran, Henry T (Pres., Banker’s Trust) Cochran, William F (Art Dealer) $250 Colby, Everett (Council for Moderation) Colgate, Russell (Colgate Palmolive) $100 Colgate, S Bayard (Partner, James Colgate Co.) Cutting, C Suydam Danforth, William H (Pres., Ralston Purina) Davison, F Trubee (Chair, Hanover Trust) Davison, George W (Chair, Central Hanover Trust) DeForest, Johnston (Director Russell sage Foundation) Diebold, Arthur H (Pres., Sterling Products) Dodge, Cleveland E (Secy of Interior under Harding) $50 Dorrance, Arthur C (Pres., Campbell Soup) Dulles, John Foster (Rockefeller Foundation & Secretary of State) $10 Dunn, Gano (Pres., JG White Engineering) Eastman, Lucius R (Chair., Hills Brothers) Ecker, Frederick H (Chair., Met Life) Eisenhart, M Herbert (Pres., Bausch Lomb) Field, Marshall (Marshall Field Co.) $200 Fletcher, Henry (Pres., Fed. of Protestant Welfare Agencies) Ford, Edsel (Ford Motor Co.) Freeman, Clayton E (Chair NY Republican Committee) $100 Gannett, Frank E (Gannett Newspapers) Gibson, Harvey D (Chair, Manufacturer’s Trust) Gifford, Walter S (Chair; Community Service Society of NY) $100 Goss, John H (Scovill Manufacturing) Gross, Charles Welles (Attorney) Gwinn, Ralph W (Chair; Layman’s Movement for a Christian World) $10 Hand, Judge Augustus (US District Judge) Hatch, Harold A (VP., Deering Milliken Co.) Henry, Barklie (Pres., Community Service Society of NY) Hill, William Bancroft (Vassar College) $250 Hoffman, William WV (Philanthropist) Honey, Marcus $25 Hope, Walter Ewing (Trustee, Princeton University) Hoppin, C Beekman (Hoppin Brothers & Co.) $50 Hoving, Walter (Pres; Lord & Taylor) Howell, Alfred Corey (Manager, Guaranty Trust) James, Arthur Curtis Jenkins, Harry L Johnson, Walter $100 Johnston, Percy H (Pres., Chemical Bank Trust) Kendall, Henry P (Pres., Kendall Co.) $25 Kilmer, WS (Pres., Wildroot Co.) Kingsley, William M (Chair., US Trust of NY) $25 Kirby, FM (Fmr Partner, FW Woolworth) Lamont, Thomas W (Sr. Partner; JP Morgan Co.) Lindbergh, Col. Charles A Loomis, James Lee Lowe, E Horrick (VP., Corn Exchange Bank) Luce, Henry R (Publisher, Time Magazine) MacCracken, John H McBrier, Edwin M (Former Partner, FW Woolworth Co.) $10 McCann, Charles EF (FW Woolworth Co. Attorney) McInnerney, Thomas H (Pres., National Dairy Products) Maltbie, William M (Chief justice on Connecticut) Mason, Charles N Maynard, Edward P (Chair; Brooklyn Trust Co.) Mead, George J (Owner, Pratt Whitney) Merle-Smith, Van Santvoord (Attorney) Milbank, Albert G (Chair, Borden Co.) $50 Milbank, Jeremiah (Investor) Montague, Gilbert (Pres., Bell Telephone Labs) Morgan, Junius S (JP Morgan Co.) Morgan, William Fellows (JP Morgan Co.) $25 Nast, Conde (Pres., Conde Nast Publications) Nichols, C Walter (Pres., Empire Construction) Norton, Garrison Osborn, Frederick (Chair., Colprovia Roads, Inc.) Page, Arthur W (Pres., ATT) Palmer, CR (Pres., Clveit, Peabody Co.) Parkinson, Thomas I (Pres., Equitable Life) Payne, Kenneth (Editor, Readers Digest) Penney, JC (Chair., JC Penny Co.) Phelps, Henry W (Chair., American Can Co.) $25 Phipps, Henry C Polk, Frank L (Chair., Rockefeller Center) Pouch, William H (Pres., Concrete Steel Co.) Pyne, Percy R II (Trustee, Princeton University) Pratt, Herbert L (Standard Oil Co.) Prosser, Roger D Rickard, Edgar (Chair., Scott Paper Co.) Rockefeller, John D Jr. $1000 Rockefeller, Laurence Russell, Norman (Pres., US Pipe & Foundry) Sams, Earl C (Pres., JC Penny) Seabury, David Schiff, John M (Kuhn, Loeb & Co.) Shepard, Finley Johnson $250 Sibley, Harper (Fmr Pres., US Chamber Commerce) $25 Sloan, Alfred P Jr. (Chair., General Motors) Smull, J Barstow (VP., Winchester Co.) Speers, William E (Chair., James McCutcheon & Co.) Stone, Samuel M (Pres., Colt Firearms) Straus, Roger W $10 Stewart, JR $100 Strong, Benjamin (First VP., US Trust) Sunderland, Edwin SS (Attorney) Swope, Gerard (Hon. Chair., General Electric) Talcott, John G (Manufacturer) Taylor, Myron C (Former Chair., US Steel) Thompson, Dr WJ Trevor, John B $100 Tucker, Carl (Investor) Wallace, DeWitt (Owner, Readers Digest) Warner, Lucien T (Owner, Warner Corset Co.) Williamson, Frederick E (Pres., NY Central railroad) Winslow, CB (Former FW Woolworth Partner) Wood, Willis Woods, Frank H (Pres., Addressograph) $100 Young, Owen D _____________________________________ Attached above is the Rockefeller Dinner list along with who they were, monies donated, and if they were associated with Rockefeller, AA members or the Foundation This is part of a larger project on a book I have written (and am trying to find a publisher for) on the relationship between AA and the Rockefellers. The research was done both at the Rockefeller Archives as well as the GSO Archives. Old Who's Who in Business at the public library was a big help in figuring out who some of these people were. Jay Moore IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7969. . . . . . . . . . . . re: Rockefeller Dinner From: Mike Batty . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/19/2011 4:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have read it somewhere and do not remember where, that Nelson Rockefeller subbed for his father, John D Jr., as chairman due to the elder's illness. I realize this is not accurate history to just rely on memory but hopefully someone can come up with passage and actual quote. I am sure someone like Ernie Kurtz has a more accurate take on this. Regards to All and thanks for so much interesting reading. Mike Batty Waterloo, Ontario IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7970. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: John D Rockefeller dinner From: gcdavid1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/19/2011 8:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Interesting how on page 7 Bill states "more than 400 of us" and two different newspaper articles below state the "movement today numbers 120" ... David M - - - - Charles Knapp wrote: Here is a digest of the dinner from Rockefeller's Archives. It shows the attendees of the dinner. http://aagso.org/1940/dinner_capture.pdf IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7971. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: John D Rockefeller dinner From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/19/2011 10:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Actually, the Rev. Dr. Allen A Stockdale (Congregationalist, I think) and the Rev. Dr. Douglas R. Sharpe (Methodist?) were there and there may have been other members of the clergy hiding under the "Mr" -- the other doctors seem to have been on the medical side. Of the nineteen persons invited by AA, eight were members, four were friends whose role in AA is generally known (Frank Amos, Dr Russell Blaisdell of Rockland, Dr Silkworth, Leonard Strong), and the other seven, though all laymen, included James S Cushman (1871-1952), a leader in Presbyterian charities, Norman Klauder (1900-1992) and C Walter Lotte (1893-1941), both active in Christian Endeavor, and Fred Eldridge (1872-1961), for many years Secretary of the New York YMCA (and Lotte had been head of the New Jersey YMCA). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7972. . . . . . . . . . . . Font for title -- Big Book 1st and 2nd edits? From: lanhamcook . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/20/2011 5:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, can anyone tell me what the script is, that is, the name of the font used for the words for the title 'Alcoholics Anonymous' on the cover of the 1st and 2nd edition Big Books? thanks JLC - - - - FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR: This question was asked before, back in 2008, in Message #5337 "dan" (chicagostacey at sbcglobal.net), but I do not believe it was ever answered. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7973. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Medical Men: Kennedy, Collier, and Stouffer From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/20/2011 7:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, Kevin - Sorry for the delay in answering your inquiry about pix of the MDs. In the Marty Mann bio, Dave and I somehow located Hessie Kennedy Rubin, Foster Kennedy's dtr, and she generously shared the photo we used in the book's center photo section. However, we sent all our source material some time ago to the Alcoholism archives at Brown Univ. So if you can't locate the dtr on the internet, I'd suggest you try Brown. The other two doctors are unfamiliar to us, but Brown might have a source for them, too, from someone else. Shalom - Sally Rev Sally Brown Board Certified Chaplain United Church of Christ Coauthor with David R Brown: A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous http://www.sallyanddavidbrown.com 1470 Sand Hill Rd, 309 Palo Alto, California 94304 Phone/Fax: 650-325-5258 Email: rev.sally@att.net (rev.sally at att.net) ________________________ From: kevin.roche4@btinternet.com Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 Subject: The Medical Men: Kennedy, Collier, and Stouffer I am keen to locate photographs of Dr. Robert Foster Kennedy, Dr. G. Kirby Collier and Dr. John F. Stouffer. I would very much like to find out the date of death of Dr. John F. Stouffer too. I hope that someone in the group will be able to assist me in my endeavours. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7974. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Who nominated Bill W. for the Lasker Award? From: Stephen Gentile . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/21/2011 3:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AAHistoryLovers, I looked on the website and I failed to find anywhere that nominate or mention Bill Wilson himself for the award or anyone who nominated the Bill Wilson himself. It would seem that Alcoholics Anonymous alone was nominated and given the Group Award. On the Website there are two Places that list a Group award for Alcoholics Anonymouse in 1951. There are two awards given for the year 1951. http://www.laskerfoundation.org/awards/index.htm http://www.laskerfoundation.org/pdf/2010_anniversary_supplement.pdf I requested some information from the "Albert and Mary Lasker Foundation" on this subject and have received a responce. The fact is that all records prior to 1962 have been moved to the National Library of Medicine \ History of Medicine Division. So After researching I was given a contact named John P. Rees who is their Archivist and Digital Resources Manager. He said there was only the original 2 page press release on file and that he would be happy to PDF. and send it to me. I am sad to say there is No record of who nominated the group for the award. The Lasker Archive only includes Nominees in the records from 1962 forward. As per the Grapevine November 1951 the award was presented on October 30, 1951. Press Release from 1951 in entirety: AMERICAN PUBLIC HEALTH ASSOCIATION'S LASKER GROUP AWARD 1951 to ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS The American Public Health Association presents a Lasker Award for 1951 to Alcoholics Anonymous in recognition of its unique and highly successful ap­proach to that age-old public health and social problem, alcoholism. Since its founding sixteen years ago, Alcoholics Anonymous has brought recovery to more than 120, 000 chronic drinkers formerly thought hopeless. Today this world fellowship of 4, 000 groups, resident in 38 countries, is rehabilitat­ing 25, 000 additional persons yearly. In emphasizing alcoholism as an illness, the social stigma associated with this condition is being blotted out. Alcoholics Anonymous works upon the novel principle that a recovered alcoholic can reach and treat a fellow sufferer as no one else can. In so doing, the recovered alcoholic maintains his own sobriety; the man he treats soon be­comes a physician to the next new applicant, thus creating an ever-expanding chain reaction of liberation, with patients welded together by bonds of common suffering, common understanding and stimulating action in a great cause. This is not a reform movement, nor is it operated by professionals who are concerned with the problem. It is financed by voluntary contributions of its members, all of whom remain anonymous. There are no dues, no paid therapists, no paid professional workers. It enjoys the goodwill and often the warm en­dorsement of many medical and scientific groups -no mean achievement in itself for any organization run entirely by laymen. Historians may one day point to Alcoholics Anonymous as a society which did far more than achieve a considerable measure of success with alcoholism and its stigma; they may recognize Alcoholics Anonymous to have been a great venture in social pioneering which forged a new instrument for social action; a new therapy based on the kinship of common suffering; one having a vast potential for the myriad other ills of mankind. --------------------------------------- The same exact writing can be found in the American Journal of Public Health December 1951 page 1548 If anyone would like a copy of the PDF, I will be more than happy to send it to you. just email me. Steve G. From Rockaway, NJ Stephen Gentile (sagentile at hotmail.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7975. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Why don''t you choose your own concept of God? From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/22/2011 6:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The manuscript copy showed Bill W making his own decision and using the term, "God as I ... understood him," just not in the immediate context of Ebby's visit to his apartment. At the hospital I was separated from alcohol for the last time. Treatment seemed wise, for I showed signs of delirium tremens. I have not had a drink since. There I humbly offered myself to God, as I then understood Him, to do with me as He would. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7976. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr Bob''s House: news and question From: trysh travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/23/2011 8:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA History Lovers will be interested in a post today on the Points blog ( http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/ ) by Michelle McClellan, who is working on a proposal to have Dr. Bob's home recognized in the national register of historic places. Now a question for the History Lovers: while we were preparing and editing the post, Michelle and I discovered that the links to Dr. Bob's house no longer work: the domain name http://www.drbobshome.com/ , to which Points has linked in the past, returns an error message. Does anyone know what's going on with this? Feel free to reply to me directly at trysh.travis@gmail.com (trysh.travis at gmail.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7977. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Cora Finch, Stellar Fire: Frederick Walker From: Michael Margetis . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/23/2011 1:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII WHAT ELSE IS KNOWN ABOUT FREDERICK WALKER? Hi all, Thank you Glenn for posting the links to Cora's articles, and thank you Cora for the hard work! It's greatly appreciated! http://hindsfoot.org/jungstel.pdf http://hindsfoot.org/jungnote.pdf After reading them I have become very interested in Frederick Walker. Will certainly be trying to learn more about him. Suggested reading? (Can't seem to find anything on-line…) Thanks, Mike Margetis Brunswick Maryland ____________________________________________ FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR: Mike is referring to the Frederick Walker who is discussed in pages 7-12 of Cora Finch, "Additional Notes to Stellar Fire," see http://hindsfoot.org/jungnote.pdf IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7978. . . . . . . . . . . . Twenty Four Hours a Day source material From: Gary Neidhardt . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/23/2011 8:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have matched "Twenty Four Hours A Day" (TFHD) by Richmond Walker to its main source "For Drunks Only" (FDO) by the same author. (note, my TFHD is a Hazelden post 1975 printing). With one likely exception, February 29, THFD uses FDO as its source for THFD's first section up until at least May 29. But as FDO has only 46 pages of recovery material, Richmond Walker had to look elsewhere to complete THFD. Regarding the first section, THFD's Foreward states: "These daily readings contain most of the material used in the booklet "For Drunks Only" and other A.A. literature; also some passages from "the Big Book," Alcoholics Anonymous. My question then becomes, other than the Big Book, does any one know what "the other literature" was that Richmond Walker used to fill up the remaining seven months? Gary Neidhardt Lilburn, Georgia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7979. . . . . . . . . . . . Back into the mainstream of life From: Charlie Parker . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/21/2011 10:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What did the term "Back into the mainstream of life" mean to our founders and in the 11th step meditation? Do we know where that term came from? Some of us have seen it as a negative and others as a positive thing. I have always read it as a positive like "What could I add to life rather than always thinking about what I can get from it?" or "How can I contribute? Much love, Charlie P. Austin, TX IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7980. . . . . . . . . . . . Amazing Grace from 1990 AA International From: Cherie'' H. . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/21/2011 11:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The recording of Judy Collins singing Amazing Grace sounds like the person who sang it at the 2010 International in San Antonio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVpxfDgVaec IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7981. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rockefeller Dinner From: Jayaa82@earthlink.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/22/2011 6:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Just read the dinner digest. Nelson himself said his father was ill (laryngitis). What is interesting is that Bill never met JDR, Jr. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7982. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: John D Rockefeller dinner From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/22/2011 11:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thanks Jay, Jay gave a great power-point presentation at the National AA Archives Workshop in 2008 on how Rockefeller helped AA. Jay provided some information that contradicts what we read in our history books of Rockefeller's involvement. A CD of his talk can be obtained from Glenn K Audio Tapes CD #03580. You may have to call or email to order because I had a hard time finding it on their website.. Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7983. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr Bob''s House: news and question From: Robt Woodson . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/23/2011 11:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Works ok for me ... Woody in Akron - - - - Message #7976 (Wed Nov 23, 2011) said that they had just discovered that the links to Dr. Bob's house no longer worked: http://www.drbobshome.com/ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7984. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Twenty Four Hours a Day source material From: Jayson Slade . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/24/2011 12:35:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The TFHB material in fine print at the bottom of each page came from a book entitled God Calling by Two Listeners, that was edited and published by A. J. Russell, who was an Oxford Grouper. And February 29 only appeared in the 1994, 40th Anniversary Edition of the TFHD book. Mel Barger, author of Pass It On, wrote the forward for the 40th Anniversary Edition as well as the Feb 29 page info. I'm the AA Archivist for my area. I'd like to speak to anyone that may have any info on any of these books: the green cover copy of Twenty-Four Hours a Day, the Hazelden copy of Twenty-Four Hours a Day that has a double-page spread picture showing the farmhouse, an original pre-Hazelden copy of Twenty-Four Hours a Day, an original For Drunks Only pamphlet, an original 7 Points of Alcoholics Anonymous pamphlet, and/or Courtenay Baylor's Remaking a Man. Thanks... Jayson Slade, Gulfport, Mississippi IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7985. . . . . . . . . . . . More Collected Ernie Kurtz: 5, 6, 7, and 8 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/25/2011 11:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII See bottom half of the page: http://hindsfoot.org/ktcek1.html ____________ 5. "The Spirituality of William James: A Lesson from Alcoholics Anonymous" http://hindsfoot.org/tcek05.pdf 6. "Shame in the Nineties" http://hindsfoot.org/tcek06.pdf 7. "Commentary on 'Lay Treatment'" http://hindsfoot.org/tcek07.pdf 8. "Models of Alcoholism Used in Treatment: Contrasting A.A. and Other Models with Which it is Often Confused" http://hindsfoot.org/tcek08.pdf ____________ The remaining four articles (nos. 9, 10, 11, and 12) will be posted as soon as they are formatted for the internet. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7986. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Font for title -- Big Book 1st and 2nd edits? From: Dan Roe . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/27/2011 9:17:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The following were the only meaningful responses I saved: Hi Dan, I can see why you picked Apricot, but I don't think that's the font. The strokes of the letters aren't right, and they don't connect the same way. Your sample does look like a font, but I think it may be a custom one. It's similar to some by Alejandro Paul of Sudtipos, particularly Mousse Script, in feeling, but I cannot find anything identical. It's also sort of like some fonts by Jason Walcott of Jukebox (sold at Veer), but nothing matches. It's a mystery to me right now too, and if you get an answer I'd like to know what you find. - Mike Yanega, Bowfin Printworks (info1 at bowfinprintworks.com) - - - - Dear Dan, Thank you for your email and I apologize for the delay in responding to your questions. Unfortunately, the information regarding the font type of the jacket cover of the First and Second Editions of the Big Book is unavailable. Again I apologize for the delay. Best regards, Darlene G. Smith Intellectual Property Administrator A.A. World Services, Inc. - - - - From: Dan (danno1002 at hotmail.com) Can anyone tell me what the name of the font is called that appears on the cover of the 1st & 2nd ed. big books? Thanks A grateful member Dan Roe - - - - On Oct 29, 2008, at 10:28 AM, Dan wrote: Hello, Found your website and wondered if you could identify the font of the words Alcoholics Anonymous on these covers. I have it narrowed down to Apricot Ligature but it is not an exact match. Thanks for any help! Dan Roe - - - - Message 7972 Font for title -- Big Book 1st and 2nd edits? Posted by: "lanhamcook" (lanhamcook at yahoo.co.uk) Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:29 pm (PST) Hi, can anyone tell me what the script is, that is, the name of the font used for the words for the title 'Alcoholics Anonymous' on the cover of the 1st and 2nd edition Big Books? JLC - - - - >FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR: This question was asked before, back in 2008, in Message #5337 from "dan" (chicagostacey at sbcglobal.net) but I do not believe it was ever answered. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7987. . . . . . . . . . . . Font used for THIRD edition cover From: hdmozart . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/26/2011 4:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is for the cover of the THIRD edition of the Big Book (not the first and second editions) but I think I got real close to the font which was used for the third edition - I believe it's URW Didoni, a 1969 font by Phil Martin - http://fontdeck.com/typeface/didoni [You can type 'Alcoholics Anonymous' in the sample text box to make a direct comparison] The problem is that dust jacket style is either 'narrow' or 'condensed' - I could only find Didoni in a 'normal' style, which is more 'spread out' than the sample on the dust jacket - Bodoni is a close second, but the lower case y is different in almost all styles - the lower case y has a smooth join where the two verticals come together - I did find one Bodoni condensed that had the same shaped lower case y as the Didoni (a break where the two verticals come together) - http://fontdeck.com/typeface/bodonicondensed [Again, type 'Alcoholics Anonymous' in the sample text box] But as I perused different Bodoni samples, there was no consistency - I found Bodoni condensed that instead had the smooth join at the base of the y http://www.linotype.com/44062/BodoniBoldCondensed-font.html# [Type 'Alcoholics Anonymous' over 'Enter your sample text'] A picture is worth a thousand words, here's the smooth join vs the break that I described above http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/Misc/Clip.jpg Hope this helps, Larry Holbrook IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7988. . . . . . . . . . . . Were these two AA pamphlets ever printed? From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/28/2011 1:20:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Just read the June 1957 Grapevine. Conference report indicated two pamphlets recommended be printed: What Kind of Old-Timer Are You? and Your 19,999 Partners in AA Were these published and did the title remain as recommended or were they retitled? John Wikelius, Enterprise, Alabama (justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7989. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Amazing Grace from 1990 AA International From: Dan Roe . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/28/2011 10:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Amazing Grace was sung by Deedles from Sumner, Washington. That is the name by which she is introduced on the actual conference tape recording. _________________________ I have the tape of this. It is labeled Sunday Spiritual Meeting AA-239 B 9th A.A. International Seattle, WA. 7/90 Dicobe Tapes, Inc. Box 303 Bellevue, NE 68005 On the cassette player counter the song is started at 370 (number will vary depending on age of cassette player). "... And now to bring this wonderful weekend to a close we present Deedles from Sumner, Washington, who will sing Amazing Grace ..." Dan - - - - FROM THE MODERATOR: To see her live (singing Amazing Grace in a different setting) go to YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5jCHiBO9L8 and also look at http://www.dianeschuur.com/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diane_Schuur among other places. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7990. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Were these two AA pamphlets ever printed? From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/28/2011 4:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hey John, From the booklet "Advisory Actions of the General Service Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous 1951-2009 (M-39)" page 58 under the year 1958: "The "Oldtimer" pamphlet be tabled for the present time since after a year of exploration there is inadequate material to warrant publication." The working title for this pamphlet was "You and Your 199,999 Partners in A.A." and was approved at the 1957 conference. [Apparently the title to the pamphlet was shortened to "Partners In AA" before it went to press in 1958] Then in 1963 it was recommended when revised, "Partners In AA" be retitled "The Group Handbook" with the subtitle, "How the AA Group Starts and Grows." In 1965 the draft of the pamphlet "The AA Group" (P-16) was approved. All pamphlets got a "face lift" in 2006/2007. This pamphlet was one of the first four to get the new look. Hope this helps Charles from Wisconsin ________________________________ >From: john wikelius >Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 >Subject: Were these two AA pamphlets ever printed? > >Just read the June 1957 Grapevine. Conference report indicated two pamphlets recommended be printed: What Kind of Old-Timer Are You? and Your 19,999 Partners in AA. Were these published and did the title remain as recommended or were they retitled? > >John Wikelius, Enterprise, Alabama IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7991. . . . . . . . . . . . Seagram''s flag at half mast? From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/29/2011 5:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I heard today that Seagram's, the Montreal distillers, flew their flag at half mast during the 1985 AA international reunion in Montreal. Can anyone verify that, or is it an urban myth? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7992. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Font for title -- Big Book 1st and 2nd edits? From: JoeA . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/29/2011 2:25:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm an old printing guy - started off with hot lead. People do not realize that book jackets were considered "art" and as such were hand drawn and hand lettered. I do not think you will find the font you are looking for. I believe some designer (whose name should show up in the archives) designed the garish red and yellow cove as a piece of deco illustration. Similarly the second edition appears to be hand lettered. People back in the olden times knew how to draw a straight line and to draw a curve. Lettering was highly prized. Perhaps someone did some reverse engineering and designed a font based on the two cover letter forms, as they have with most popular film logos what have become full fonts for computer typesetting - I have over 2,000 fonts but have not seen a specific font that matches either cover. There are untold thousands of fonts out there. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7993. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill''s 1944 Christmas Greetings to all A.A.s From: rvnprit . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/28/2011 7:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know where this was published in 1944? A Grapevine archives search did not show it appeared there until years later: *Greetings Christmas 1944* Yes, it's in the air! The spirit of Christmas once more warms this poor distraught world. Over the whole globe millions are looking forward to that one day when strife can be forgotten, when it will be remembered that all human beings, even the least are loved by God, when men will hope for the coming of the Prince of Peace as they never hoped before. But there is another world which is not poor. Neither is it distraught. It is the world of Alcoholics Anonymous, where thousands dwell happily and secure. Secure because each of us, in his own way, knows a greater power who is love, who is just, and who can be trusted. Nor can men and women of AA ever forget that only through suffering did they find enough humility to enter the portals of that New World. How privileged we are to understand so well the divine paradox that strength rises from weakness, that humiliation goes before resurrection; that pain is not only the price but the very touchstone of spiritual rebirth. Knowing it's full worth and purpose, we can no longer fear adversity, we have found prosperity where there was poverty, peace and joy have sprung out of the very midst of chaos. Great indeed, our blessings! And so,-- Merry Christmas to you all-- from the Trustees, from *Bobbie* and from Lois W. and Bill W. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7994. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob''s house funding From: Mike . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/4/2011 2:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I visited Dr. Bob's abode last year. Luckily I had plenty of time and it wasn't too busy, consequently I was able to spend some time talking with two very knowledgeable guides. I was taken back when one of them told me that AA in New York doesn't contribute anything to the maintenance or upkeep of Dr. Bob's house. Is this true? Mike IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7995. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Font for title -- Big Book 1st and 2nd edits? From: Long-hair Bob . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/1/2011 10:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII That name along with hundreds of other facts about early AA can be found in the fairly new book, "The Book that started it all: the Original working manuscript of the big book". A little bit pricy but well worth the money. You can also probably check it out of your local library. I consider it one of the most informing books I know. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7996. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W patented his boomerang? From: formulaplusx . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2011 1:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Another curious question I've had. I heard one of Bill Wilson's talks (haven't found it again to determine which one it was) in which he said his invention of the "1st American boomerang" was registered with the U.S. Patent Office. I've played around and looked for that and haven't found anything. Anyone have some knowledge of his claim? -Steve IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7997. . . . . . . . . . . . Dick Barmity From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2011 11:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Members, I have acquired a first edition, 9th printing of the book "Alcoholics Anonymous." It is inscribed: ============================== Dear Dick Barmity - In grateful remembrance of your recovery and your account of it in Readers Digest. Merry Christmas Bill Wilson Dec/45 ============================== Though I am no expert, I believe the inscription is Bill's. I also have been told that Mr. Barmity wrote an article for Reader's Digest (mentioned above), in the January, 1946 issue, entitled, "My Return from the Half-World of Alcoholism." Does anyone know how Bill might have been acquainted with Dick and what Mr. Barmity's DOS might have been? In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7998. . . . . . . . . . . . 24 Hours A Day - differences between original and modern eds? From: mikey_portz . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/1/2011 5:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 24 Hour A Day Book - differences between the original Richmond Walker version (as printed by the AA group in Daytona Beach, Florida, from 1948 to 1954) and the present-day Hazelton edition? I have been told that after Hazelton obtained the rights to print the book, they have changed some things. If there are differences, does anyone know where I can get an inexpensive copy of the version that was published by the original printers when the entire book was authored by Richmond Walker? Thanks in advance for your time, help and any shared information you may contribute. Kind regards in fellowship, Mike Portz Cell (702) 501-9551 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7999. . . . . . . . . . . . Francis John Ryan From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/1/2011 11:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Members, Is anyone familiar with the name of an early AA member "Francis John Ryan," perhaps known as "Frank" or any of his other names? He is NOT on the Amos List, nor on the "Tommy's" list of the first 226 in Akron. I sponsor a man locally that claims he is his grandfather AND one of the "first 100." In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8000. . . . . . . . . . . . Charles Clapp marriage agreement From: Jayson Slade . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/6/2011 10:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm trying to obtain a scan of the "Drinking Agreement" that author, Charles Clapp, had made with his wife. It was written in long hand and was at least 2 pages in length. As I recall, it read something along the lines of "we promise to never drink ... unless" and went on and on with exceptions that would almost always allow drinking. The last I heard of its whereabouts was in Pete Lowery's collection before he passed away. For all I know, it could still be at his house. I'd love a copy as I cannot place the copy he gave me. Thanks. --Jayson Slade IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8001. . . . . . . . . . . . A 2nd post on Dr. Bob''s Home From: trysh travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2011 2:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Michelle McClellan has a follow-up post to her earlier piece on Dr. Bob's Home today on the Points blog: http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/ Trysh Travis _________________________________________ Welcome Home, Part II: Dr. Bob's Home and "Addiction History Exceptionalism" Posted on December 5, 2011 by michelle1mcc http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/ In a recent post, I described a trip to Dr. Bob's Home in Akron, Ohio, with a group of graduate students in history from the University of Michigan. The students have spent much of this fall semester writing the nomination for Dr. Bob's Home to be designated a National Historic Landmark, a process I described in my previous post. Here, I offer some further thoughts on how the visit has contributed to my thinking about how we conceptualize the relationship between past and present. In teaching and research, I have been grappling with what I call, for lack of a better term, "addiction history exceptionalism" -- that is, how is addiction history like and unlike other kinds of history, and how can it enrich our understanding of historical investigation more broadly? In thinking about these issues, I found Ernie Kurtz's post earlier this fall on types of AA history, and the comments that followed it, very helpful. The existence of various historical approaches, from academic to antiquarian and in between, surely is not unique to the addiction field or to the history of AA. (As a devoted fan of Laura Ingalls Wilder and the "Little House" books, I can attest to that.) But there does seem to be an intensity in the realm of AA history that is not evident in many other areas, due at least in part, I believe, to the existence of a large constituency for whom AA history has tremendous personal and collective significance in the present. To the extent that this particular intensity arises from personal association with the AA fellowship, it cannot be replicated precisely in other realms of historical inquiry. But to the extent that it comes from a more general awareness and acknowledgment of the emotional dimensions of historical investigation, I think other fields have a lot to learn from how AA history is practiced. Although we often shy away from such things in academic writing, research, and teaching (at least in how we present our own relationship with our material), emotion and a sense of intimacy can be fundamental to historical inquiry. In comments on Ernie Kurtz's post, Ron Roizen noted that there is something "irreducibly familial" in how AA history is often pursued, echoed by Joe Gabriel's observation that the same can be said about medical history as practiced by physicians. I agree that the family metaphor can be illuminating. As I mentioned last time, thinking about the actual Smith family in their domestic space while walking through the house ourselves also enriched our understanding of early AA. Hearing the origin story of AA repeated with remarkable consistency by everyone we met, I found myself thinking about the role of the individual in history. Years of training have predisposed me against any kind of "great man" theory of historical causation, and yet there was something about being in that intimate setting that made me think afresh about how particular people -- especially Dr. Bob and Anne Smith, as well as Bill Wilson -- made something happen through their own actions, literally making history. I am sure that being in that house brought those figures down to life size for me and, perhaps ironically, made me better able to appreciate their accomplishments. The house itself embodied both past and present -- simultaneously museum, shrine, and home for current spiritual practice. I found myself very moved, especially in the dining room where, we were told, alcoholics wrote out their stories on yellow legal pads, to have them typed by Sue Smith Windows, daughter of Dr. Bob and Anne Smith. This very table, this very typewriter -- such is the power of the relic that we all stood there in silence. This was one of those moments where I felt myself both historian and antiquarian, torn between wanting to analyze the interpretation offered in the room and preferring to simply appreciate the emotional intensity attached to these objects in this place. Later, I could not help myself from wondering why the dining room in particular had affected me that way. I think it was because of a fusion of place, artifact, and text, the result of knowing that at least some of those stories found their way into the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. The text can be known independently of the site, yet familiarity with the text, in turn, imparts more meaning to the site. In the house, I was captivated with this merging of past and present, finding it both intellectually fascinating and emotionally rewarding. As we moved to other sites in Akron, however, we realized that that blending can be unsettling, even disturbing. I am grateful to the students in my class for their insights in our follow-up discussions of this experience. One of our stops was the Mayflower Hotel, from where Bill Wilson made the call that led ultimately to his conversation with Dr. Bob. Today, the Mayflower Hotel is used for transitional housing, and some of the residents we encountered as we made our way to the lobby seemed vulnerable and struggling. There, we literally had to cross the present to get to the past, and we could not control the extent to which the present inserted itself into what might otherwise be a romanticized version of the past. Here is something else we can learn from AA history. Narrative is appealing, especially narrative with a happy ending: Bill met Dr. Bob, they both got sober, they created AA which has changed the lives of millions of people. That is all true. But seeing the current residents of the Mayflower Hotel reminded me that when Dr. Bob and Bill were going through this, it was undoubtedly messy, painful, even terrifying -- and they did not know how it was going to turn out. Similarly, recovery narratives seem to mark a clear before and after, but the dividing line is not necessarily that sharp, particularly when one is living it. Perhaps no one said it better than William Faulkner: "The past isn't dead. It isn't even past." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8002. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Seagram''s flag at half mast? From: Stephen Gentile . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/29/2011 10:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Stephen Gentile, PR_Magoo, J.BARRY MURTAUGH, Mike Barns, and rriley9945 - - - - Stephen Gentile (sagentile at hotmail.com) July 5-7, 1985 - 45,000 attend 50th Anniversary of AA in Montreal; House of Seagrams flies their flags at half mast for 3 days. http://silkworth.net/bobp/chapter22.html Many other sites have this listed as real. Steve G New Jersey - - - - From: "PR_Magoo" Look in "Not-God: a history of Alcoholics Anonymous," by Ernest Kurtz, expanded vesion 1991 - Appendix B, pg 297. Also, do a Google search using: "seagrams montreal flag at half mast". You will find others. - - - - From: "J.BARRY MURTAUGH" (murtaughjbarry1 at gmail.com) So reported in the Montreal newspapers. There may even have been a photo. I was there, but never saw the evidence myself. bear - - - - From: Mike Barns (mikeb384 at verizon.net) Flags at half-mast over the Seagram's distillery in Montreal in 1985? As I recall, I saw the flags at the Molson Brewery flying at half-mast. I could be wrong since that was over 26 years ago and my memory is even worse today. Mike Barns - - - - From: rriley9945@aol.com (rriley9945 at aol.com) Urban myth up there with George Washington's cherry tree and Betsy Ross' flag. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8003. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Seagram''s flag at half mast? From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/29/2011 8:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII According to the October 1985AA Grapevine it could be true ... October 1985 Vol 42 No 5 ACKNOWLEDGMENTS AA's 50th Anniversary International Convention Montreal, Quebec, July 4-7, 1985 This is the story of AA's 50th birthday party. It must be told in many voices, for no individual's words or perceptions could capture the reality of the experience. The pages that follow contain the reflections of numerous AA members who attended the Convention. The Grapevine editors have simply given shape to a mosaic, fashioning the generous contributions of many into an impressionistic account of an indescribable event. THE THEME WAS "Fifty Years with Gratitude," and gratitude walked the streets of Montreal, burst the seams of hotels all over the city and outlying areas, roamed the corridors and bounced off the walls of the Convention Center, filled the Olympic Stadium with wave after wave of cheering AAs and Al-Anons, flinging their arms wide in the sheer joy of sobriety. It was AA's largest International (registration was over 44,000, from fifty-four countries), and by far the most exuberant. One member called it "a weekend in a perfect world, a foretaste of what the world could be if everyone cared enough." Others described it as "wall-to-wall drunks, all vertical," and "one big love-in." A newspaper account began: "Forty-four thousand alcoholics converged on Montreal this weekend looking for a good time, and nobody had a hangover." Members chatted about how they arrived -- by plane, train, bus, car, or trailer, by boat (on special pre-convention cruises without booze), by any conveyance whatever that would get them there. They shared bumper-sticker stories from different highways. Some drove back and forth from Vermont or upstate New York each day, while others were housed as much as sixty miles out from the city and commuted cheerfully. A favorite memory for many will be the sight of the Fifth Chapter Motorcycle Club gathered in front of the Convention Center plaza, the gang of ex-toughs adding a picturesque note to a generally more conventional crowd. There was the AA from Scotland who flew from Glasgow to Boston with his bike, then cycled the rest of the way. And a rather dusty girl from Maine said she had no money so she walked, three days' worth. To "Where's your gear?" she replied, "You're looking at it -- except for a sleeping bag that I stashed in a new friend's car just now." "What did you do when it rained?" "Pine trees give the best shelter. I just got under one." For travelers who wanted more than a pine tree, accommodations were often the first order of business. All the hotel space set aside for the Convention had been filled for months, and the overflow crowds had reserved other rooms or booked into university dormitories or planned to camp out in trailers. Others arrived with no reservations, just a profound faith that their higher power would step in. A planeload of forty-one AAs from Northern Ireland "took a flyer" and came with no reservations, and eleven AAs and Al-Anons who flew in from Mexico told others, without worry, that they had no hotels. Last-minute cancellations took care of some; the Convention housing crew of others; others brought sleeping bags and crowded by the dozen into hotel rooms or suites; some even slept in lobbies, or on the floor of the Regency Ballroom at the LeGrand, where the marathon meeting was held. One member reported: "I think God wanted my judgmentalism to be punctured a bit. I have sometimes felt smug and superior to the 'quiet' AA folks. My upbringing in sobriety has been in a rather extroverted town, AA-wise. But there I was in Montreal, a victim of an overbooked hotel, and I told the sad tale to some quiet AA folks I'd just met on the charter bus ride to the Convention. Without a word, they handed me the spare key to their room. Actions speak louder than words, don't they?" (A member from Massachusetts wrote of a different lesson in humility, when she met the creator of Victor E. at a Grapevine workshop. "Funny--I used to be a place-and-name-dropper because I traveled a lot. Now, being able to say that I talked with the man who draws Victor means more than any of them.") There were touches of humor. One woman had innocently checked into a motel only to find out at checkout time the next morning that she had been charged by the hour -- she had happened into one of those. A couple reported that shortly after arriving at a Montreal hotel, and being warmly greeted as AA visitors, a room service waiter arrived at the room with a gift, compliments of the house. It was a large chocolate bar, filled with whiskey. (The "candy" went down the drain, but the wrapper remains as the souvenir of a thought that counted.) And of course, there were the "coincidences" -- the kind that AAs speak of with emphasis on the quotation marks. A New Mexico shared in a triple-duty coincidence Tuesday night before the Convention: "There were about twenty of us sitting around the lobby of our hotel, and we decided to have a meeting. It was one of those meetings where you literally feel the spirit. One woman came into the lobby distraught: she had come to Montreal with no place to stay, sure only that God wanted her to be there. A little later, a man from Ireland spoke up, and told us that he had in Montreal several years before and harmed some close friends. Now, sober, he felt it was a perfect opportunity to make amends, and was late in joining the meeting because he had spent so much with these friends. They had welcomed him warmly and offered him a place in their home -- the same home he had been evicted from many years earlier. His only remaining difficulty: to explain to his hotel that he had somewhere else to stay and wanted his money back. The woman in a need of a room solved problem. "But that wasn't all. A new woman had come to the meeting with me, someone who had been having trouble finding a God of her understanding. As we left, she squeezed my hand and confided with joy that now she had felt the presence of her higher power." And an international-scale "coincidence" happened for the four Conventioneers from Poland (where the first AA group was started in 1981). It was the first time a Polish contingent had attended a Convention, and out of the fourteen who wanted to come, only four could afford the journey. Rooms had reserved for them at a local university, but when the men arrived, they didn't know where to go; they found (and paid for) other rooms. When two of them turned up at the registration windows at the Convention Center to get the situation straightened out, the first member of the Host Committee they turned to for help turned out to be a native French-Canadian second-generation Pole. He was not only able to speak to them in Polish but also brought along his nonalcoholic parish priest to help. As more and more AAs arrived, the city's newspapers, TV, radio pitched in to help, when it became known that some visitors were sleeping in their cars, thousands of residents offered housing. "I'm appalled," said one Montrealer encountered at the Picasso exhibition, "that they didn't ask us to open our homes as we did for Expo." Montreal opened not only its homes but its heart. A local radio reporter compared the city during the Convention to the scene in a recent science fiction movie. He said that Montreal had been invaded by tens of thousands of benevolent aliens. Wearing blue badges, they were wandering throughout the city, happy, smiling, and greeting passersby. The citizens of the city, he went on, had been touched by this strange new spirit and were smiling back and returning the greetings. Citizens and "aliens" alike were good-humored in the Metro (subway), which was jammed to the doors before and after events at Olympic Stadium. All joined in the spontaneous bursts of singing and laughter, in the conversations that sprang up between friends-just-met, and in the cheering as overcrowded subway trains came into overcrowded stations -- and in a generous gesture, the city allowed the crowds to ride free coming back from the stadium after the big meetings. A New York State AA was moved after the Saturday night entertainment when, a "country girl" frightened by the subway, she joined in with a crowd that sang through the turnstiles, onto the platform, and into the train. After running through most of the usual group songs, there was a moment of silence as they tried to think of what to sing next. Then someone started to sing "Amazing Grace," very softly, and as the song was picked up by the rest of the crowd, tears came to her eyes at the special meaning of the words, "I once was lost, but now am found." Other stories abounded. "They wouldn't bring the wine I ordered for my Al-Anon wife," said an AA from Massachusetts. He felt good about that: "They meant to protect me.". . . At the five o'clock Saturday Mass at Mary Queen of the World Cathedral, the priest added the Serenity Prayer to the liturgy, and assured Conventioneers that they would always be welcome . . . . In a pre-Convention show of hospitality, the male purser on an Air Canada flight liked the AAs who traveled with him so much that he rented a van and took about a dozen of them sightseeing -- on his day off . . . . And a tour guide was startled when he announced to a busload of AAs, "My name is Mario, I'm your guide for this afternoon," and was greeted by a shouted "HI, MARIO!" Only the bars and liquor stores were left out, along with a few hotel bartenders who complained gently that they had been pressed into service as waiters, and the tips weren't as good. The House of Seagrams took the invasion both philosophically and humorously: its Montreal headquarters building flew three flags at half-mast during the entire weekend. Once settled in, most Conventioneers headed for the Convention Center -- to register, to pick up badges (blue for AA, red for Al-Anon), to buy copies of the souvenir booklet or Best of the Grapevine or La Vigne's Convention special issue or Al-Anon's new spiritual booklet, or just to mill around and get into the action. Several days before the Thursday night welcome dances, the Convention Center floor was crowded with eager ex-drunks. It was reunion time, and meeting-new-friends time, and people-watching time par excellence. An Oklahoma member commented: "Someone asked me what I planned to do over the Fourth of July. 'Oh,' I answered airily. 'I'm going to Montreal to spend the weekend with 40,000 close friends.' "And that's how it was. Most of the men and women I smiled at, talked to, shook hands with, I'd never seen before and won't see again, but we were friends, close friends, because of our common problem, and the solution to it we were sharing. "Each of us, probably, brought home vivid memories of individuals who stood out from the crowd for an indelible moment. The young man I remember best wasn't near enough for me to read his name card, so I don't know his name or home, but I feel sure many besides me carried away a misty-eyed memory of that unforgettable face. He was thin, dressed in blue jeans and a cotton shirt, immaculately clean but so worn as to be almost ragged. He made his way through the throngs at the Convention Center on crutches, for he had only one leg. Of all the happy faces I saw in Montreal during those three days, his was the most radiant." From Delaware comes this remembrance: "One of the familiar sights at any AA event greeted us when we readied the Convention Center: AA people exchanging autographs and sobriety dates. A woman member asked an AA man to sign her copy of the blue souvenir booklet,Fifty Years with Gratitude.When he did so, he was startled to see her eyes fill with tears. They shared the same sobriety date: September 20, 1954." Another familiar sight is that of enthusiasts handing out souvenirs of their own. These generous souls prompted someone to write: "At the 1990 Convention, I want to be one of those giving everyone a card, or a button, or a ribbon, or a slogan. Like one Al-Anon lady from Mexico, who was handing out a tiny green turtle with a yellow head and flower on his back -- Easy Does It, perhaps?" That first trip to the Convention Center was everyone's introduction to some of the most important people there, the volunteer Host Committee of 3,000 Montreal AAs--"those wonderful straw hatters." The smiling faces under the white straw hats with blue and red trim greeted everyone at the door with a hearty "Welcome to Montreal." One description is typical: "They were everywhere. They knew everything. A woman from Verdun, a member of the Host Committee, even plonked down on the floor to try and straighten a bent spoke on my wheelchair. They stood and worked all day, while we were free to enjoy the rich program of meetings on the agenda. I don't think we could possibly thank them enough." Scheduled events began Thursday night, with two overflowing welcoming dances, one with the "big band sound" and the other with a disco beat. Then, all day Friday and Saturday and through both nights, the fourth floor of the Convention Center and the meeting rooms of several hotels were filled with workshops, panels, marathon meetings, red ball meetings, newcomers meetings--the only problem was deciding where to be, when, with a wide choice of events at any hour of the day or night. It was forty thousand people (give or take a thousand or so) speaking the language of the heart, from platforms, in the corridors, on lines waiting for lunch at the restaurants and refreshment stations. . . .It was the impromptu speakers at the Around-the-World Call-Up meeting, where there was no language barrier between AAs from many countries . . . . It was the deaf member who told her story entirely in sign language, with virtually no need for voice for a interpretation . . . . It was the old-timers, "golden oldies in AA," with their reminders of the roots of the Fellowship and the reality that the more things change, the more they remain the same. It was proof piled on proof that the program works. It works in prisons: At the Friday afternoon workshop on AA and Prisons, two speakers told how they had "met" through participating in the Institutions Correspondence Service (sponsored by the General Service Office), and met in person for the first time two days before. When the "outside" sponsor drove to the airport to meet his former-inmate sponsee, now active in AA on the outside for nearly a year, they knew each other immediately. (See the July 1984 Grapevine for the story of their friendship through the mail.) Another former inmate found a surprise: A New York AA reported that "out of a sea of faces, one jumped out of the crowd. His badge said 'Don from Syracuse,' and he asked, 'Do you remember me?' After a moment, I did. Don had twelfth-stepped me in 1961, but slipped after that. He also developed the bad habit of robbing banks -- and getting caught. He told me he may be the only person who has been chairman of AA groups at both Sing Sing and Attica. But the story has a happy ending; we were both sober in Montreal. He has been sober ten years now, is active and is active in AA." The story of AA's fiftieth birthday party, like the story of AA Itself, is made up of thousands of personal experiences along the collective road to recovery. For four magical days, the road to recovery was the streets of Montreal and "the many one-to-one mini-meetings held at strange tables and in new corridors, the smiles that came from deep inside." For one Conventioneer, it was at first "a sense of being alone in a crowd. I wanted to find everyone I knew from back home. Through the grace of God and love of the people I met, I soon realized that I was with thousands of people who could and would help me, if I would only let them." From California, a member wrote: "Trudging through the throngs on Montreal's downtown streets, creeping uneasily into the underground world of the Metro, plodding along corridors in the Convention Center and the hotels where we talked to one another incessantly at nonstop meetings, I found that my predominant impression was that this was the most good-natured mass of people I had ever encountered. More than good-natured; they were good-humored, for the most part quietly well-mannered, moving with simple dignity and self-assurance, and all of them, even if seemingly aloof or timid, extraordinarily approachable. "There were a few loud and raucous ones, of course, apparently bent on demonstrating how noisily they could have fun without resorting to alcohol. But they were the exceptions. Most of us were just interested in everything that was going on, and pleased to be part of it." And a lot was going on, between friends old and new. Many AAs found old friends in unexpected ways. A speaker at one of the meetings told the story of five drinking buddies from boarding school: she and one other who were sober in AA, one now dead, one still drinking, and a fifth whom she hadn't heard from in many years. At the end of the meeting, the fifth friend, now a sober member, came up and reintroduced herself . . . . Then there was the New Yorker whose drinking story of washing her hair Iroquois-style, along with an Indian friend, in the St. Lawrence Seaway had been met with skepticism in her home group -- until a Montreal friend who had been her companion in that venture told the same story at a local meeting . . . . The "little things" stand out: The AA who sat down in the stadium Friday night, introduced himself to his neighbor, and discovered that he was sitting next to his niece's counselor at a rehab . . . . The member who celebrated his first year of sobriety, after twenty-five years in and out of AA, with a trip to the Convention . . . The young AAs from Massachusetts who turned up in beautiful red T-shirts labeled on the front, in white lettering, "Bill W.'s friend, Dick" (or Harry, or whatever) . . . . The two old drinking buddies, one now a priest, who met for the first time in many years, made their mutual amends, and spent the entire Convention together. Some of the "coincidences" were Twelfth Step opportunities: Alex from Canada (via Scotland) talked in a small meeting at one of the hotels about falling casually into conversation with a fellow from Australia. The Aussie was able to tell Alex how to get in touch with his still-active brother, lost to him for nineteen years . . . . Another member noticed a blue badge with the name Ed S. and asked its wearer if he happened to know another Ed S., from a certain town. "That's my dad," was the reply. Both he and another son are in the program and have tried, unsuccessfully, to talk to their father. Perhaps an old business friend will be more successful -- the door is now open . . . . An AA from Nebraska was hunting for a cup of coffee late at night, "and the only place open was the hotel bar. I made some comment, about drinking coffee at a bar, and the bartender replied that she drinks a lot of it, too. I asked her if she was a friend of Bill W., and she replied, 'off and on.' We got to talking a bit about AA, and after looking through the Convention program, found a meeting topic that caught her fancy, scheduled for late at night after the bar closed. We don't know what happened, and probably never will -- but we believe there was an unseen guest at the bar that night, who will finish the story." The main events were peak moments, bringing order to the dizzying round of "happenings," large and small. A member who commented that "the first hour of the Friday night opening ceremony was worth the whole trip" probably expressed the thoughts of several thousand others. A Florida AA described Friday night's Big Meeting this way: "While the Stadium filled up with spectators, we reveled in human wave after human wave as people stood and cheered in the stands at Olympic Stadium. I danced in the aisle with countless others, young and old, to the beat of Michael Jackson tunes on the loudspeaker system. We cried during the Flag Ceremony. Witnessing and being a part of history, past and present, created a feeling of melancholy, a sense of sadness within our joy, because we knew this would never happen again." After the impromptu dancing and cheering came the official opening ceremonies. First the Flag Ceremony, with flag-bearers from fifty-four countries marching in formation and stepping forward as their country's name was called. The meeting itself started off with a roar of laughter when Bob P., Convention chairperson, welcomed everyone to "the regular Friday night at Olympic Stadium." One AA wrote that "the panorama of AA history unfolded and became alive as it was recounted before us by those living "witnesses of its birth." The present the past were represented on the dais: Sarah P., GSO staff member and Convention coordinator; the current trustees of the General Service Board: old-timers, alcoholic and nonalcoholic, including Smith Jr., the only living person who was present when Bill W. and Dr. Bob met for the first time in Akron. Ruth Hock, Bill W.'s first secretary at the original Alcoholic Foundation office, who typed the manuscript of the Big Book, was presented with the five-millionth copy by Gordon Patrick, nonalcoholic chairperson of the General Service Board. And "the highlight," as one Nebraska member wrote, "was when Lois W. came into the stadium and everyone stood up. It was a sign of appreciation that only members of AA and Al-Anon would understand. When she reached the podium, I developed the largest tears I have shed since entering the Fellowship. So much of this program to me is a miracle; it was good to be reminded by Lois that our co-founders were just human beings, not gods as I sometimes picture them to be." The three speakers -- Guy from Quebec, Sybil from California, and Dave from North Carolina -- evoked a sense of history and a spirit of present gratitude that sent the crowds off to the Metro with mixed feelings: of awe because they had been present at the making of history, and of "down home" AA brought by members of the family we all share. Saturday, it was meetings, meetings, meetings during the day, and out to the stadium again for the Big Show. There were more human waves (rapidly becoming a Convention "must"), and overwhelming enthusiasm for the Inkspots and the Mummers and the can-can dancers. There was also the reality of the rain that had threatened all day, and broke after the show. A member from Oklahoma shared this memory: "Saturday night at 11:30, and I was riding around with a busload of wet drunks! The love of this beautiful Fellowship was shining everywhere in Montreal, but I especially noticed it Saturday night, when we were all rain-soaked and running to catch our bus. No one grumbled about hair, clothes, or cameras -- a far cry from the drinking days!" Sunday opened with a 7:00 AM "Fun Run," from the LeGrand Hotel through Old Montreal, along the St. Lawrence River, and back to the LeGrand. Then it was off with the jogging suits and back out to the stadium for the wind-up and official closing of the Convention, the Spiritual Meeting. It was moments of inspiration from chairperson Betty L. of the GSO staff and speakers Walter from Guatemala, Liz from New Zealand, and Joe from Arkansas. It was blowing out the candle lighted at midnight on Thursday by the person with the most sobriety at the first marathon meeting. According to custom, the person with least sobriety at the last marathon meeting blows out the candle, and this time it was Lamont C. from Texas, with three and one half days. (A member from Massachusetts reflected, "I wonder what it's like to have 40,000 sponsors.") And finally, it was more than 40,000 voices joining in the closing Lord's Prayer, and 40,000 faces wet with tears of gratitude. For some conventions, extinguishing the candle and saying the closing prayer might have been the end, but what alcoholic ever stopped anything willingly? A Sunday afternoon tour on the St. Lawrence River turned into an AA outing . . . . An Oregon member planned to meet some Scottish friends at the Convention Center plaza; they were joined by others, and a group of ten or twelve AAs joined other groups of AAs meandering through the city . . . . On Monday night, one of the local meetings was so mobbed that it had to move from the basement into the church itself. The experience continued as Conventioneers went home. This recollection comes from an enthusiastic Massachusetts member: "For me, Montreal was like getting drunk on friendliness, a natural high on handshakes and hugs. Like a greedy alky, I wanted MORE, MORE, MORE. So I kept my badge on for four days in Quebec City, and I got MORE -- from Texas and Washington and Oklahoma and Ontario and New Jersey. Tuesday night, a group in Quebec City happily accommodated the overflow from Montreal; they went from an average of about twenty members to eighty-two!" . . . "Returning by train from Montreal," wrote an AA from Ontario, "we were held up for four or five hours in North Bay. Twelve of us AAs, some from as far away as Australia, left the train and headed for some ice cream at a nearby restaurant. Then we went to a local meeting. It turned into an international meeting, and the chairperson gave us all five minutes to speak. Gratitude became the theme, and it was expressed by people from the U.S., Germany, Spain, Sweden, and Canada, to name only a few." . . . Undoubtedly, there were many such mini-Conventions in those first weeks of July, held by AAs who couldn't, or wouldn't, let the experience end. One of the many grateful AAs who wrote the Grapevine, a member from California, summed it up this way: "Once in my youth, I was told that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Never was this more true than at the International Convention in Montreal. By their very presence, AAs streaming in from all corners of the world brought to me the clear and comforting message, I can't, but we can!' The open fellowship in the streets, in the meetings, and in the Convention Center and Stadium proved to me once again that in our diversity lies our strength." ACKNOWLEDGMENTS We gratefully acknowledge the following members, who in reality are the writers of this article: J. H., Port Hueneme, CA; R. H., Citrus Heights, CA; B. M., Saratoga, CA; F. F., Wilmington, DE; C. C., Miami Beach, FL; T. K., Honolulu, HI; P. L., Crofton, MD; A. C., Brighton, MA; M. P., Dedham, MA; R. G., Salem, MA; R. W., Springfield, MA; T. S., Templeton, MA; T. P., Bellevue, NE; D. A., Snyder, NE; T. B., Delran, NJ; V. V., Freehold, NJ; N. A., Wenonah, NJ; C. P., Albuqueruqe, NM; J. M., Madrid, NY; D. O., Martville, NY; S. G., J. Y., J. S., D. D., OK; R. K., Portland, OR; T. B., Kenora, ON: E. R., Austin, TX -- and numerous others whose recollections could be included only if the Grapevine was a magazine-without-end. -- The Editors IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8004. . . . . . . . . . . . The Oxford Group in Cambridge? From: Jayson Slade . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/1/2011 5:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone have any info regarding Oxford Group meetings at the Commander Hotel in Cambridge, Massachusetts? Or the group that would have called themselves Oxford Group 2? Thanks, Jayson Slade IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8005. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Oxford Group in Cambridge? the Jacoby Club and the 24 Hour book From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/6/2011 12:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It is important to remember that the first AA group in Boston, Massachusetts, was started, NOT as a break off from the Oxford Group, but as a split off from the Jacoby Club. The earliest meetings were JOINT meetings of the Jacoby Club and Alcoholics Anonymous, meeting together in the same building as part of the Jacoby Club group. See Richard M. Dubiel, The Road to Fellowship: The Role of the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club in the Development of Alcoholics Anonymous (2004). http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html The Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club, founded in Boston in 1906 and 1909, were enormously popular movements which had thirty years of impressive success in treating alcoholics. Like Alcoholics Anonymous, they were also based on fellowship among recovering alcoholics and involved a synthesis between lay psychological counseling and spirituality. Professor Dubiel traces the indirect influence of the Emmanuel Movement on early A.A. through Rowland Hazard III and Richard R. Peabody, and the more direct influence of the Jacoby Club through early Boston A.A., which began in 1940 in the Jacoby Club quarters at 159 Newbury Street and was originally linked to them rather than the Oxford Group. The influence of this Boston-style A.A. was subsequently passed on to the rest of the United States through the second most published A.A. author, Richmond Walker and his Twenty-Four Hours a Day book. __________________________________ The Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club http://hindsfoot.org/kDub2.html The Emmanuel Movement was begun in 1906 by the Rev. Elwood Worcester at Emmanuel Episcopal Church in Boston, which is located at 15 Newbury Street, where this avenue runs into the Boston Public Gardens at its east end. The gardens, together with Boston Common, form a vast open area of green grass and beautiful flower beds right in the heart of downtown Boston. The Emmanuel Movement was an attempt to combine spirituality with a kind of simple lay psychotherapy. But it began simply as a medical mission carried out by two clergymen, the Rev. Elwood Worcester and Dr. Samuel McComb, which focused on the treatment of tuberculosis in Boston's slums. A weekly gathering allowed for fellowship among the people who came to them. When they added a "Class for the Treatment of Mental Disorders" with the help of Dr. Isador H. Coriat, a psychiatrist, they began moving into new areas of work. They soon discovered that a substantial number of these impoverished men were alcoholics, and began to develop special techniques for working with them. It was found that it was the combination of spirituality, very simple psychological treatment, and fellowship all three which got people sober and kept them off the bottle. The similarities to the later Alcoholic Anonymous movement were substantial. ========================================== ELWOOD WORCESTER was born in Massilon, Ohio, May 16, 1862; on Aug. 7, 1894, he married Blanche Stanley, the daughter of Bishop Rulison. He was an Episcopal clergyman in Boston, Massachusetts. He prepared for college in Rochester, New York, and earned his A.B. degree from Columbia College in 1886. He was a student at General Theological College in New York in 1887 and at the University of Leipzig (where he earned an A.M. and a Ph.D. in 1889). He was also awarded a D.D. from Hobart College. He was Professor of Philosophy and Chaplain of Lehigh University, 1890-96; Rector of St. Stephen's Church, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, 1896-1904; then Rector of Emmanuel Episcopal Church, Boston. He was the founder of the Emmanuel Movement, the motive of which was to bring into effective cooperation the physician and the psychologically trained clergyman with their special knowledge and aptitudes in recognizing the effects of mental states on physical states, and in an effort to improve the conditions of human life generally, a large part of the work being devoted to the sick. In conjunction with Dr. McComb he held health conferences every Wednesday evening besides giving much of his time during the week to interest those in need of moral and spiritual uplift. He was the author of Religious Opinions of John Locke; The Book of Genesis in the Light of Modern Knowledge; Religion and Medicine; The Living Word; The Christian Religion as a Healing Power; and Religion and Life. ========================================== ROWLAND HAZARD: Courtenay Baylor began working with Father Worcester in 1912, focusing solely on those with alcohol problems, and became the other key leader in the movement in later years. What was of special importance to A.A. was Baylor's influence on Rowland Hazard. In this book, Dubiel shows how Hazard had to be hospitalized for his alcoholism in February and March of 1932, and then from January 1933 to October 1934 was again in bad shape and unable to carry on his business activities. But then he explains how Courtenay Baylor became Rowland Hazard's therapist in 1933, and continued to work with him through 1934. It was under the influence of Baylor's Emmanuel Movement therapy (with its combination of spirituality and simple lay therapy) that Hazard actually began to recover. Hazard was also attending Oxford Group meetings, but his family was paying Baylor to be his regular therapist. In August 1934, of course, Hazard helped rescue Ebby Thacher from being committed to the Brattleboro Asylum, and three months later, in November 1934, Ebby visited Bill Wilson in his kitchen, in the famous scene recorded in the first chapter of the Big Book. RICHARD PEABODY: Bill W. was also influenced by Richard R. Peabody, author of The Common Sense of Drinking. Peabody was another of Courtenay Baylor's patients. After recovering, Peabody began trying to treat alcoholics himself. His system was a secularized and intellectualized version of the Emmanuel Movement method, with the spiritual component removed, and with no understanding on his part of the importance of fellowship among recovering alcoholics. Alcoholics were to get sober by practicing a rigid self-control and bringing their feelings and emotions under the control of reason. But his book did have an effect on Bill W.'s thought. In 1909 the Jacoby Club was launched by Emmanuel Church member and prominent rubber merchant Ernest Jacoby. He organized what he called "men meeting men" meetings in the church's basement. They were originally designed as informal auxiliary meetings for people who were affected by drinking problems to meet and help each other. The group grew rapidly and separated from the Emmanuel Movement in September 1913. For the next several decades it sought down-and-out men and put a special emphasis on fellowship as a path to recovery. AA IN BOSTON BEGAN AT THE JACOBY CLUB: In 1940, Paddy Keegan came to Boston to start the first A.A. group in that city, and linked his Boston work with the Jacoby Club. The weekly A.A. meeting was at first held at the Jacoby Club's 115 Newbury Street address. This was slightly west of the Public Gardens, and a few blocks south of Commonwealth Avenue, with its tree-filled park running down its entire length. Ruth Hock at the New York A.A. office put Boston alcoholics in contact with Lawrence Hatlestad, the man who was running the Jacoby Club's program for alcoholics, giving them his address and telling them to go see Hatlestad. The little A.A. group did not seek quarters of its own until June of 1941, when it moved just a little further west on Newbury Street, to 123 Newbury. It was not until the next year, 1942, when the A.A. group moved four blocks further west to 306 Newbury Street, that they began to totally distance themselves from the Jacoby Club. RICHMOND WALKER AND THE 24-HOUR BOOK: It was at this point, in May 1942, that a Boston businessman named Richmond Walker came to his first A.A. meeting and got sober. Six years later, in 1948, Rich published (on his own) a little A.A. meditational book called Twenty-Four Hours a Day, which quickly began sweeping the country. He is the second most highly published A.A. author (only Bill W. is more widely published), and is of enormous importance to A.A. history. For many years there were probably more A.A. members who owned a copy of Rich's little black book than a copy of the Big Book itself. There was a mix of ideas in Rich's background (see http://hindsfoot.org/rwchrn.html ). He had managed to stay sober for two and a half years (1939-1941) in the Oxford Group, but then started drinking again. He frequently refers to the OG's four absolutes -- honesty, unselfishness, love, purity -- but without using the word "absolute" or turning them into absolutes. His fine print meditations in the 24 Hour book were based on an Oxford-group sponsored work: "God Calling by Two Listeners." But other than being edited by A. J. Russell, the "God Calling" book had little or nothing in its teachings that was explicitly Oxford Group theology. Rich's adaptation of the "God Calling" meditations (which turned them into broad New Thought statements rather than narrowly Christian affirmations) was closer to Emmet Fox's "Sermon on the Mount" and "Power Through Constructive Thinking" and the 1976 book by Helen Schucman called "A Course in Miracles" than anything else in modern spiritual literature, along with more recent popular works written by Helen Schucman's followers like Marianne Williamson, famous for her meditation on what it means to truly become a child of God: "Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others." Fox was born in Ireland and came from a pious Roman Catholic family. He was educated by the Jesuits at Stamford Hill College in England, but after discovering his skills as a faith healer, he linked himself to the New Thought movement and the Church of Divine Science. His Catholic background still showed, in particular in the influence on him of the medieval spiritual tradition represented in figures like St. Denis (the author who wrote c. 500 A.D. under the name of Dionysius the Areopagite), John Scotus Eriugena and Meister Eckhart, and by the way he used allegory and symbol as his principal tool for biblical interpretation. Fox spoke lovingly of what he called the birth of the Wonder Child within our souls: “Bible symbolism has its own beautiful logic, and just as the soul is always spoken of as a woman, so this, the Spiritual Idea that is born to the soul, is described as a child. The conscious discovery by you that you have this Power within you, and your determination to make use of it, is the birth of the child.” (#55) In this manner, each human being becomes an individualization of God, a divine consciousness “coming to birth” over and over again: "[Man’s] work is to express, in concrete, definite form, the abstract ideas with which God furnishes him .... [In doing thus each human being becomes] an individualized consciousness. God individualizes Himself in an infinite number of distinct focal points of consciousness, each one quite different; and therefore each one is a distinct way of knowing the universe, each a distinct experience .... If God did not individualize Himself, there would be only one experience; as it is, there are as many universes as there are individuals to form them through thinking." (#56) The true understanding of God, Fox taught, brought us to something far bigger and grander than the primitive world of the ancients was usually able to comprehend: "Glimpsing one tiny corner of the universe, and that with only half-opened eyes, and working from an exclusively anthropocentric and egocentric point of view, men built up absurd and very horrible fables about a limited and man-like God who conducted his universe very much as a rather ignorant and barbarous prince might conduct the affairs of a small Oriental kingdom. All sorts of human weaknesses, such as vanity, fickleness, and spite, were attributed to this being. Then a farfetched and very inconsistent legend was built up concerning original sin, vicarious blood atonement, infinite punishment for finite transgressions; and, in certain cases, an unutterably horrible doctrine of predestination to eternal torment, or eternal bliss, was added." (#57) ===================================== #55. Emmet Fox, Power Through Constructive Thinking (New York: Harper Collins, 1932-1940) 3. #56. Fox, Power Through Constructive Thinking 21, also Fox, The Sermon on the Mount and The Lord’s Prayer, in his commentary on the fourth clause in the Lord’s Prayer (“Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, in earth as in heaven”), pp. 158-159. Glenn F. Chesnut, God and Spirituality: Philosophical Essays, Hindsfoot Foundation Series on Spirituality and Theology (New York: iUniverse, 2010), 232-233. #57. Fox, Sermon on the Mount 4. ===================================== It was Fox's kind of God -- a source of power which we could bring down into our souls as a spark of divine light, and which we could then draw on to remake out souls and the world around us -- which Richmond Walker taught. But Rich had also been educated in the same mix of ideas there in Boston which had produced the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club, and the A.A. "old-timers" who first introduced him to the program had (most of them) started out in the Jacoby Club. So in his Twenty-Four Hour book, Rich stressed the same three central necessities for recovery: spirituality, "re-educating" our subconscious minds, and drawing on the healing power of fellowship among recovering alcoholics. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8006. . . . . . . . . . . . 1954 10th Little Red Book From: Jayson Slade . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/7/2011 10:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 1954, 10th printing, of The Little Red Book ... Does this book actually exist? Can someone send me a scan? jaysonslade@gmail.com (jaysonslade at gmail.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8007. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Francis John Ryan From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/7/2011 2:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On Francis John R[---], can you give a location? Could there be a confusion between grandfather and great-uncle? Could it be Francis John or John Francis? There was a John Francis R[---] of Glen Ridge NJ (b. ca 1902), whose brother Vincent Morgan R[---] of Glen Ridge (b. ca 1904) was Gabriel Heatter's friend, clearly one of the first 100 (and btw the seventh of actress Arline Judge's nine husbands). Perhaps some additional details would be helpful just in case this might be the answer? And btw so far as I can determine "Dick Barmity" is a pseudonym. The barmity kite is a bird, so probably the surname exists, but I have not yet found anyone named Barmity in any records I have checked, at least not under that spelling. > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > From: ineedpage63@cox.net > Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 09:43:47 -0700 > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Francis John Ryan > > Members, > > Is anyone familiar with the name of an early AA member "Francis John Ryan," perhaps known as "Frank" or any of his other names? He is NOT on the Amos List, nor on the "Tommy's" list of the first 226 in Akron. I sponsor a man locally that claims he is his grandfather AND one of the "first 100." > > In Service With Gratitude, > Chuck Parkhurst IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8008. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill''s Story - The Original Version From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/7/2011 9:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In honor of Bill's anniversary (today is the day he surrendered at the Calvary Mission) we have placed on line a pre-multilith version of Bill's Story. Photos have been added to enhance the experience. AA members are invited to download the document at the link below. God Bless John B http://bbsgsonj.webs.com/apps/documents/categories/show/48209 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8009. . . . . . . . . . . . William White talks about his 40 years in alcoholism and addictions treatment From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/7/2011 5:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The current issue of the UK magazine "Drink and Drugs News" carries an interview with William White http://www.drinkanddrugsnews.com http://www.drinkanddrugsnews.com/magazine/419b11a2d1ab400cbafd2db8c97c5c36.p df IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8010. . . . . . . . . . . . Lists and firsts: Amos, Golden Road, 226 Akron, 1st ed. foreword From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/1/2011 12:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Learned Historians I am starting to become comfortable with the parts of AA history that are hazy and always will be, but I do not like it. Woody from Akron posted an anecdote regarding the "f" word used in historical applications and that word is FIRST. I am confused about the documentation of our early members. The Amos list, contains 43 names, including Dr. Bob but not Bill Wilson. The Golden Road counts the first 40, including Bob and Bill AND Hank Parkhurst, who is NOT on the Amos List. The "First 226 Members Akron, OH AA Group" includes Bob and Bill and Clarence, the latter two being part of New York and Cleveland respectively. The Akron list counts some members associated with other pioneer groups (New York and Cleveland) but not others, most notably Hank or Fitz Mayo. I realize there were/are different methodology in calculating members and sober time amongst our pioneer members and co-founders, but is even a little consistency in this important area too much to ask for? Lastly, in the Foreword to the First Edition the authors state there were "more than 100 men and women who have recovered." Laying aside the many possible interpretations of "recovered," were there actually 100 at that time? Either when the manuscript was being written (seems unlikely) or even when the book was published? Thanks as always for your help. In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8011. . . . . . . . . . . . Sweets for the drunk -- page 133 -- who was the doctor? From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2011 11:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Do any members know the doctor who might have been the source of the quote below from page 133 of our book? "One of the many doctors who had the opportunity of reading this book in manuscript form told us that the use of sweets was often helpful, of course depending upon a doctor's advice. In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8012. . . . . . . . . . . . Man with the rifle on Bill W''s ride to the Staten Island golf course From: formulaplusx . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2011 1:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is there any historical information about the man with the rifle Bill met on his bus ride to the golf course? Did the man (or his family) know about his part in AA history? -Steve - - - - FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR: A summary of Francis Hartigan's biography of Bill W., pages 55-56 After Bill's third trip to Towns, he stayed sober for some months. But on Nov. 11, 1934, Armistice Day, he decided to go play golf at the public course on Staten island. On the island side, he had to take a bus ride halfway across to get to the golf course. Bill's seatmate on the bus was a man carrying a rifle. They ended up having lunch together, and when the bartender came to them with two scotches and invited them to have a drink on the house, Bill (without thought) downed the drink, and of course, kept on drinking all the rest of the day, and finally came home once again drunk out of his mind. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8013. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: A 2nd post on Dr. Bob''s Home From: J.BARRY MURTAUGH . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/6/2011 8:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Trysh, Thanks for taking us beyond the obvious, again. bear J.Barry Murtaugh Court Maroon, Ltd. 773-851-2100 - - - - On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 1:41 PM, trysh travis wrote: > Michelle McClellan has a follow-up post to her earlier piece on Dr. Bob's Home today on the Points blog: > > http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/ > > Trysh Travis > _________________________________________ > > Welcome Home, Part II: Dr. Bob's Home and "Addiction History > Exceptionalism" > Posted on December 5, 2011 by michelle1mcc > > http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/ > > In a recent post, I described a trip to Dr. Bob's Home in Akron, Ohio, > with a group of graduate students in history from the University of > Michigan. The students have spent much of this fall semester writing the > nomination for Dr. Bob's Home to be designated a National Historic > Landmark, a process I described in my previous post. Here, I offer some > further thoughts on how the visit has contributed to my thinking about how > we conceptualize the relationship between past and present. In teaching and > research, I have been grappling with what I call, for lack of a better > term, "addiction history exceptionalism" -- that is, how is addiction > history like and unlike other kinds of history, and how can it enrich our > understanding of historical investigation more broadly? > > In thinking about these issues, I found Ernie Kurtz's post earlier this > fall on types of AA history, and the comments that followed it, very > helpful. The existence of various historical approaches, from academic to > antiquarian and in between, surely is not unique to the addiction field or > to the history of AA. (As a devoted fan of Laura Ingalls Wilder and the > "Little House" books, I can attest to that.) But there does seem to be an > intensity in the realm of AA history that is not evident in many other > areas, due at least in part, I believe, to the existence of a large > constituency for whom AA history has tremendous personal and collective > significance in the present. To the extent that this particular intensity > arises from personal association with the AA fellowship, it cannot be > replicated precisely in other realms of historical inquiry. But to the > extent that it comes from a more general awareness and acknowledgment of > the emotional dimensions of historical investigation, I think other fields > have a lot to learn from how AA history is practiced. > > Although we often shy away from such things in academic writing, research, > and teaching (at least in how we present our own relationship with our > material), emotion and a sense of intimacy can be fundamental to historical > inquiry. In comments on Ernie Kurtz's post, Ron Roizen noted that there is > something "irreducibly familial" in how AA history is often pursued, echoed > by Joe Gabriel's observation that the same can be said about medical > history as practiced by physicians. I agree that the family metaphor can be > illuminating. > > As I mentioned last time, thinking about the actual Smith family in their > domestic space while walking through the house ourselves also enriched our > understanding of early AA. Hearing the origin story of AA repeated with > remarkable consistency by everyone we met, I found myself thinking about > the role of the individual in history. Years of training have predisposed > me against any kind of "great man" theory of historical causation, and yet > there was something about being in that intimate setting that made me think > afresh about how particular people -- especially Dr. Bob and Anne Smith, as > well as Bill Wilson -- made something happen through their own actions, > literally making history. I am sure that being in that house brought those > figures down to life size for me and, perhaps ironically, made me better > able to appreciate their accomplishments. > > The house itself embodied both past and present -- simultaneously museum, > shrine, and home for current spiritual practice. I found myself very moved, > especially in the dining room where, we were told, alcoholics wrote out > their stories on yellow legal pads, to have them typed by Sue Smith > Windows, daughter of Dr. Bob and Anne Smith. This very table, this very > typewriter -- such is the power of the relic that we all stood there in > silence. This was one of those moments where I felt myself both historian > and antiquarian, torn between wanting to analyze the interpretation offered > in the room and preferring to simply appreciate the emotional intensity > attached to these objects in this place. Later, I could not help myself > from wondering why the dining room in particular had affected me that way. > I think it was because of a fusion of place, artifact, and text, the result > of knowing that at least some of those stories found their way into the Big > Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. The text can be known independently of the > site, yet familiarity with the text, in turn, imparts more meaning to the > site. > > In the house, I was captivated with this merging of past and present, > finding it both intellectually fascinating and emotionally rewarding. As we > moved to other sites in Akron, however, we realized that that blending can > be unsettling, even disturbing. I am grateful to the students in my class > for their insights in our follow-up discussions of this experience. One of > our stops was the Mayflower Hotel, from where Bill Wilson made the call > that led ultimately to his conversation with Dr. Bob. > > Today, the Mayflower Hotel is used for transitional housing, and some of > the residents we encountered as we made our way to the lobby seemed > vulnerable and struggling. There, we literally had to cross the present to > get to the past, and we could not control the extent to which the present > inserted itself into what might otherwise be a romanticized version of the > past. > > Here is something else we can learn from AA history. Narrative is > appealing, especially narrative with a happy ending: Bill met Dr. Bob, they > both got sober, they created AA which has changed the lives of millions of > people. That is all true. But seeing the current residents of the Mayflower > Hotel reminded me that when Dr. Bob and Bill were going through this, it > was undoubtedly messy, painful, even terrifying -- and they did not know > how it was going to turn out. Similarly, recovery narratives seem to mark a > clear before and after, but the dividing line is not necessarily that > sharp, particularly when one is living it. Perhaps no one said it better > than William Faulkner: "The past isn't dead. It isn't even past." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8014. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob''s house funding From: Robt Woodson . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2011 10:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Woody in Akron, Stephen Gentile, Cindy Miller, Joseph Nugent, Tom Hickcox, and Jim L. in Central Ohio - - - - From: Robt Woodson (wdywdsn at sbcglobal.net) Dr. Bob's Home is not, and could not be, affiliated with AA in any way. A quick reading of AA's traditions will tell you why. The Founder's Foundation is an organization which was put together privately in order to purchase, protect, and preserve the house ... while making it available to all of us who wish to visit and share in the experience of its rich history. Woody in Akron - - - - From: Stephen Gentile (sagentile at hotmail.com) Dr. bobs house is funded entirely by donations. Neither AA in New York nor any other area contribute to the house. You can call or read about it on the website for the house or call the Dr Bob's organization. http://www.drbobshome.com/aboutmuseum_history.asp Steve G New Jersey - - - - From: Cindy Miller (cm53 at earthlink.net) Isn't Ardmore Ave. a separate entity from GSO? I believe it is incorporated and is also an historic site. (Money from Ohio?) I think Dr.Bob's home in Stonebury, or Bill W.'s house in Vermont, or Stepping Stones -- also get no money, and are separate from the corporate structure of AA. (But correct me if I am wrong--it's been known to happen occasionally!) -cm - - - - From: Joseph Nugent (jumpinjoe1 at gmail.com) Great place to visit, it's run as a foundation and taken care of by donations and volunteers, just the way it should be. Joe - - - - From: Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) On 12/4/2011, Mike wrote: "I was taken back when one of them told me that AA in New York doesn't contribute anything to the maintenance or upkeep of Dr. Bob's house." Why would they support it? I believe the place is owned by a foundation. My late friend from Baton Rouge, Dan C., was involved with it. I believe the Wilson House is owned by a similar organization. I don't know about Stepping Stones. Dr. Bob's birthplace in St. Johnsberry is owned privately. Tommy H in Danville - - - - From: Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com) On 12/4/2011, Mike wrote: "I was taken back when one of them told me that AA in New York doesn't contribute anything to the maintenance or upkeep of Dr. Bob's house. Is this true?" Well, not so surprising when one remembers the tradition about each group being autonomous and the one which states that each group ought to be self supporting. Jim L. in Central Ohio IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8015. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob''s house funding From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2011 7:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Below is what their site says: http://www.drbobshome.com/getinvolved.asp What Can I Do? Volunteer! There are countless ways in which you can participate in Dr. Bob's Home. You can be an on-site host who welcomes visitors and guides them through the home. Let's remember that while this is a place of the spirit, it is still made of bricks and wood and requires upkeep. You can help with maintenance, tending the grounds in summer, removing ice and snow in the winter, and making small repairs. You can help organize and preserve our archive. One might organize special events or group excursions to this house. Offering your time will be much appreciated by all those involved in the preservation project. Donate! We have made some effort while preparing this web-site to separate the spiritual from the tangible. Regardless of how we as individuals may be rocketed into a new dimension as we visit here, the physical structure is still held together by screws, wood, and mortar. Necessary, constant upkeep and the ongoing development and the preservation of this site, as for any residential property is understandably quite costly; and as visitation increases, more so. Dr. Bob's Home is funded entirely by the generous support of donors just like you. Won't you please help us sustain and conserve this special place for generations to come? We and all future visitors to Dr. Bob's Home thank you! To make a donation, contact Dr. Bob's Home @ 330-864-1935, or send a check to: Dr. Bob's Home 855 Ardmore Ave Akron, OH 44302 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8016. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 24 Hours A Day - differences between original and modern eds? From: Jayson Slade . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2011 8:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Jayson Slade, Tom Hickcox, and Trysh Travis - - - - From: Jayson Slade (jaysonslade at gmail.com) There's not an inexpensive pre-Hazelden copy available for sale anywhere. But if you get a copy with rounded corners it should be just fine, as the "modern" changes didn't really take place until after 1975, which began the square corners era for Hazelden. --Jayson Slade - - - - From: Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) At 17:55 12/1/2011, mikey_portz wrote: "24 Hour A Day Book (sic) - differences between the original Richmond Walker version (as printed by the AA group in Daytona Beach, >Florida, from 1948 to 1954) and the present-day Hazelton (sic) edition?" The name of the book is "Twenty-Four Hours a Day," and it was/is published by Hazelden. Note the correct spelling of the organization, please. The version you use is the eBay version. Approximate dates can be had by the address Hazelden used in the books. We know when Hazelden was located at these locations. The earliest copy I have is with the North Dale Street address. Hazelden was there 1954-58. One of my N. Dale St. books is inscribed by hand with the date "1954". Hazelden published at least two versions before it, perhaps more. They are extremely rare. - - - - From: trysh travis (trysh.travis at gmail.com) I don't have my notes in front of me, but I believe that the 50th anniversary edition of *24 hours a Day,* edited by Bill Pittman, claimed to present the text as it was originally published *by Hazelden*. Whether it was totally true to the original, privately published editions or not is difficult to know; I have never been able to find one of those old copies. I talk about the changes that Hazelden made to their editions of *24 Hours* in chapter four of my book *The Language of the Heart.* Trysh Travis IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8017. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 24 Hours A Day - differences between original and modern eds? From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/8/2011 1:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Tommy Hickcox once went through the early part of the 24 Hour book and marked the changes that had been made by Hazelden in the original Florida version. The ones he found consisted of very minor changes to produce gender neutral language, etc. Here are the original passages he found in the January, February, March, and April readings, in which today's edition has a different wording or spelling: 0123: An alcoholic is a person whose drinking has got him into a "blind alley." He hasn't been able to learn anything from his drinking experience. He is always making the same mistakes and suffering the same consequences over and over again. He refuses to admit he's an alcoholic. He still thinks he can handle the stuff. He won't swallow his pride and admit that he's different from ordinary drinkers. He won't face the fact that he must spend the rest of his life without liquor. he can't visualize life without ever taking a drink. Am I out of this blind alley? *Turned into gender neutral language 0124: An alcoholic who is living in a blind alley refuses to be really honest with himself or with other people. He's running away from life and won't face things as they are. He won't give up his resentments. He's too sensitive and too easily hurt. He refuses to try to be unselfish. He still wants everything for himself. And no matter how many disastrous experiences he has had with drinking, he still does it over and over again. There's only one way to get out of that blind alley way of living and that's to change your thinking. Have I changed my thinking? *Turned into gender neutral language 0218: After I became an alcoholic, alcohol poisoned my love for my family, it poisoned my ambition in business, it poisoned my self-respect. It poisoned my whole life, until I met A.A. My life is happier now than it has been for a long time. I don't want to commit suicide. So with the help of God and the* A.A., I'm not going to take any more of that alcoholic's poison into my system. And I'm going to keep training my mind never even to think of liquor again in any way except as a poison. Do I believe that liquor will poison my life if I ever touch it again? *Note: "the" in front of A.A. [5th sentence] was edited out in the 1970 revision. 0308: We must go to A.A. meetings regularly. We must learn to think differently. We must change from alcohol thinking to sober thinking. We must re-educate our minds. We must try to help other alcoholics. We must cooperate with God by spending at least as much time and energy on the A.A. programme* as we did on drinking. We must follow the A.A. program to the best of our ability. Have I turned my alcoholic problem over to God and am I cooperating with Him? *programme changed to US spelling 0314: Can I get well? If I mean: Can I ever drink normally again, the answer is no. But if I mean, can I stay sober? the answer is definitely yes. I can get well by turning my drink problem over to a Power greater than myself, that Divine Principle in the universe which we call God. And by asking that Power each morning to give me the strength to stay sober for the next twenty-four hours. I know from the experience of thousands of people that if I honestly want to get well, I can get well. Am I faithfully following the A.A. programme*? *programme changed to US spelling 0318: When a man comes into A.A. and faces the fact that he must spend the rest of his life without liquor, it often looks like too big an order for him. So A.A. tells him to forget about the future and bite it off one day at a time. All we really have is now. We have no past time and no future time. As the saying goes: "Yesterday is gone, forget it; tomorrow never comes, don't worry; today is here, get busy." All we have is the present. The past is water over the dam and the future never comes. When tomorrow gets here, it will be today. Am I living one day at a time? *Rendered gender neutral 0329: Before I met A.A. I was very dishonest. I lied to my wife constantly about where I had been and what I'd been doing. I took time off from the office and pretended I'd been sick or gave some other dishonest excuse. I was dishonest with myself, as well as with other people. I would never face myself as I really was or admit when I was wrong. I pretended to myself that I was as good as the next fellow, although I suspected I wasn't. Am I now really honest? [rendered gender neutral] *Turned into gender neutral language: "I lied to my spouse" and "I pretended to myself that I was as good as the next person" 0330: Before I met A.A., I was very unloving. From the time I went away to school, I paid very little attention to my mother and father. I was on my own and didn't even bother to keep in touch with them. After I got married, I was very unappreciative of my wife. Many a time I left her flat while I went out to have a good time. I paid very little attention to our children and never tried to understand them or make pals of them. My few friends were only drinking companions, not real friends. Have I gotten over loving nobody but myself? *Turned into gender neutral language: "very unappreciative of my spouse" 0331: Since I've been in A.A., have I made a start towards being more unselfish? Do I no longer want my own way in everything? When things go wrong and I can't have what I want, do I no longer sulk? Am I trying not to waste money on myself? And does it make me happy to see my wife have enough money for herself and the children? Am I trying not to be all get and no give? *Turned into gender neutral language 0401: Since I've been in A.A., have I made a start towards becoming more honest? Do I no longer have to lie to my wife? Am I on time at my work and do I try to earn what I get? Am I making an attempt to be honest with myself? Have I faced myself as I really am and have I admitted to myself that I'm no good by myself, but have to rely on God to help me do the right thing? Am I beginning to find out what it means to be alive and to face the world honestly and without fear? *Am I on time at my work is replaced by Do I try to have meals on time 0402: Since I've been in A.A., have I made a start towards becoming more loving to my family and friends? Do I visit my parents? Am I more appreciative of my wife than I was before? Am I grateful to her for putting up with me all these years? Have I found a real companionship with my children? Do I feel that the friends I've found in A.A. are real friends? Do I believe that they are always ready to help me and do I want to help them if I can? Do I really care now about other people? *Rendered gender neutral. 4th sentence left out 0406: Every alcoholic has a personality problem. He drinks to escape from life, to counteract a feeling of loneliness or inferiority, or because of some emotional conflict within himself, so that he cannot adjust himself to life. His alcoholism is a symptom of his personality disorder. An alcoholic cannot stop drinking unless he finds a way to solve his personality problem. That's why going on the wagon doesn't solve anything. That's why taking the pledge usually doesn't work. Was my personality problem ever solved by going on the wagon or taking the pledge? *Rendered gender neutral 0407: In A.A. an alcoholic finds a way to solve his personality problem. The does this by recovering three things. First, he recovers his personal integrity. He pulls himself together. He gets honest with himself and with other people. He faces himself and his problems honestly, instead of running away. He takes apersonal inventory of himself to see where he really stands. Then he faces the facts, instead of making excuses for himslef. Have I recovered my integrity? *Rendered gender neutral 0408: Second, an alcoholic recovers his faith in a Power greater than himself. He admits that he's helpless by himself and he calls on that Higher Power for help. He surrenders his life to God, as he understands Him. He puts his drink problem in God's hands and leaves it there. He recovers his faith in a Higher Power that can help him. Have I recovered my faith? *Rendered gender neutral 0409: Third, an alcoholic recovers his proper relationships with other people. He thinks less about himself and more about others. He tries to help other alcoholics. He makes new friends so that he's no longer lonely. He tries to live a life of service instead of selfishness. All his relationships with other people are improved. He solves his personality problem by recovering his personal integrity, his faith in a Higher Power, and his way of fellowship and service to others. Is my drink problem solved, as long as my personality problem is solved? *Rendered gender neutral 0414: A police captain once told about certain cases he had come across in his police work. The cause of the tragedy in each case was drunkenness. He told his audience about a man who got into an argument with his wife while he was drunk and beat her to death. The he went out and drank some more. The police captain also told about a man who got too near the edge of an old quarry hole when he was drunk and fell one hundred and fifty feet to his death. When I read or hear these stories, do I think about our motto: "But for the grace of God?" *Person who fell into quarry changed to woman 0418: As I look back over my drinking career, have I learned that you take out of life what you put into it? When I put drinking into my life, did I take out a lot of bad things? Hospitals with the D.T.'s? Jails for drunken driving? Loss of job? Loss of home and wife and children? When I put drinking into my life, was almost everything I took out bad? *wife and children replaced with "family" 0421: After we've been in A.A. for a while, we find out that if we're going to stay sober, we have to be humble people. The men we see in A.A. who have really made the grade are all humble people. When I stop to think that but for the grace of God I might be drunk right now, I can't help feeling humble Gratitude to God for His grace makes me humble. When I think of the kind of person I was not so long ago, when I think of the man I left behind me, I've got nothing to be proud about. Am I grateful and humble? *rendered gender neutral 0426: The A.A. programme is one of submission, release and action. When we're drinking, we're submitting to a power greater than ourselves, liquor. Our self-wills are no use against the power of liquor. One drink and we're sunk. In A.A. we stop submitting to the power of liquor. Instead, we submit to a Power also greater than ourselves, which we call God. Have I submitted myself to that Higher Power? *programme chanced to U.S. spelling _______________________________________ 0124: I know that the vision and power which I receive from God are limitless, as far as spiritual things are concerned. But in temporal and material things, I must submit to limitations. I know that I cannot see the road ahead. I must go just one step at a time, because God does not grant me a longer view. I am in uncharted waters, limited by my temporal and spacial* life, but unlimited in my spiritual life. I pray that, in spite of my material limitations, I may follow God's way. I pray that I may learn that trying to do His will is perfect freedom. *original spells the word spacial, today's edition spells it spatial 0128: When a man seeks to follow the way of the spirit, it frequently means a complete reversal of the way of the world which he has hitherto followed. But it is a reversal that leads to happiness and peace. Do the sins and ambitions that a man usually strives for bring peace? Do the world's awards bring heartrest and happiness? Or do they turn to ashes in the mouth? *This entry was edited to gender neutrality 0309: It is the quality of my life that determines its value. In order to judge the value of a man's life, we must set up a standard. The most valuable life is one of honesty, purity, unselfishness and love. All men's lives must be judged by this standard in order to determine their value to the world. By this standard, most of the so-called heroes of history were not great men. "What shall it profit a man if he ran the whole world, if he loseth his own soul?" *rendered gender neutral 0311: It seems as though, when God wants to express to men what He is like, He makes a very beautiful character. Think of a personality as God's expression of character attributes. Be as fit an expression of Godlike character as you can. When the beauty of a man's character is impressed upon us, it leaves an image which in turn reflects through our own actions. So look for beauty of character in those around you. *but this passage was NOT completely altered to make it gender neutral: "men" remains "men" in the modern edition, although "a man's character" has been changed to read "a person's character." 0314: Persevere is all that God's guidance moves you to do. The persistent carrying out of what seems right and good will bring you to that place where you would be. If you look back over God's guidance, you will see that His leading has been very gradual and that only as you have carried out His wishes, as far as you can understand them, has God been able to give you more clear and definite leading. Man is led by God's touch on a quickened responsive mind. *rendered gender neutral 0319: God's spirit is all about you all day long. You have no thoughts, no plans, no impulses, no emotions, that He does not know about. You can hide nothing from Him. Do not make your conduct conform only to what the world sees and do not depend on the approval or disapproval of men. God sees in secret, but he rewards openly. If you are in harmony with the Divine Spirit, doing your best to live the way you believe God want you to live, you will be at peace. *Rendered gender neutral 0401: God is all around us. His spirit pervades the universe. And yet we often do not let His spirit in. We try to get along without His help and we make a mess of our lives. We can do nothing of any value without God's help. All our human relationships depend on this. Then we let God's spirit rule our lives, we learn how to get along with our fellow men and how to help them. *Rendered gender neutral 0403: Remember that the first quality of greatness is service. In a way, God is the greatest servant of all, because He is always waiting for us to call on Him to help us in all good endeavor. His strength is always available to us, but we must ask it of Him through our own free will. It is a free gift, but we must sincerely seek for it. A life of service is the finest life we can live. We are here on earth to serve others. That is the beginning and the end of our real worth. I pray that I may cooperate with God in all good things. I pray that I may serve God and my fellow men and so lead a useful and happy life. *Rendered gender neutral 0404: No man can help unless he understands the man he is trying to help. To understand the problems and temptations of your fellow man, you must have been through them yourself. You must do all you can to understand your fellow man. You must study his background, his likes and dislikes, his reactions and his prejudices. When you see his weaknesses, do not confront him with them. Share your own weaknesses, sins and temptations and let him get his own convictions. *Rendered gender neutral I pray that I may serve as a channel for God's power to come into other men's lives. I pray that I may try to understand my fellow men. *Rendered gender neutral 0408: You must make a stand for God. Believers in God are considered by some as peculiar people. You must even be willing to be deemed a fool for the sake of your faith. You must be ready to stand aside and let the fashions and customs of the world go by, when God's purposes are thereby forwarded. Be known by the marks that distinguish a believer in God. These are honesty, purity, unselfishness, love, gratitude and humility. I pray that I may be ready to profess my belief in God before men. I pray that I may not be turned aside by the skepticism and cynicism of unbelievers. *Rendered gender neutral 0416: I must try to love my fellow men. Love comes from thinking of every man or woman as your brother or sister, because they are children of God. This way of thinking makes me care enough about them to really want to help them. I must put this kind of love into action by serving my fellow men. Love means no severe judging, no resentments, no malicious gossip and no destructive criticism. It means patience, understanding, compassion and helpfulness. *Rendered gender neutral 0419: It is a glorious way -- the upward way. There are wonderful discoveries in the realm of the spirit. There are tender intimacies in the quiet times of communion with God. There is an amazing, almost incomprehensible understanding of your fellow men. On the upward way, you can have all the strength you need from that Higher Power. You cannot make too many demands on Him for strength. He gives you all the power you need, as long as you are moving along the upward way. *Rendered gender neutral IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8018. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Francis John Ryan From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/6/2011 1:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ==================== At 11:43 12/1/2011, Chuck Parkhurst wrote: >Is anyone familiar with the name of an early AA member "Francis John >Ryan" .... I sponsor a man locally that claims he is his grandfather >AND one of the "first 100." ==================== The Louisiana Archive has a newspaper clipping of the death of an A.A. member which touts him as one of the founders of A.A. -- national founder, not local. People can make any claims they want, but it is up to them to provide the evidence, not up to historians to prove otherwise. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8019. . . . . . . . . . . . Markings newsletter list From: Charles . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/9/2011 1:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone have a list of Markings Newsletters complete with volume, number and date? I am especially interested in the early issues. Seems there were a couple issues numbered incorrectly. I am trying to determine which issues I am missing before writing New York to see if I can get photo or scanned PDF copies. Any help would be appreciated. Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8020. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 24 Hours A Day - differences between original and modern eds? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/8/2011 10:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On 12/5/2011, trysh travis wrote: (trysh.travis at gmail.com) >I don't have my notes in front of me, but I believe that the 50th >anniversary edition of *24 hours a Day,* edited by Bill Pittman, >claimed to present the text as it was originally published *by >Hazelden*. Whether it was totally true to the original, privately >published editions or not is difficult to know; I have never been >able to find one of those old copies. There is no claim in the 50th Anniversary Edition that it is the text in the original, early Hazelden editions. I checked some of my rounded corner printings against a current printing. Several examples jump out. The 50th has a page for February 29th. This page was written by Mel B in the early '80s. Pre-1980 or so printings don't have it. A cursory check of several pages shows that the 50th uses the more recent text changes Hazelden implemented. The book apparently is an anniversary/commemorative edition with no claims of historical accuracy. There is a 25th Anniversary Edition of Twenty-Four Hours a Day. It does _NOT_ have a page for February 29th but does use the more recent text. There is also a 40th Anniversary Edition, but my collection lacks it, unfortunately. As an aside, Hazelden-Pittman Archives Press published a 50th Anniversary Little Red Book. I have it on very good authority that they intended this to be a facsimile of the original 1946 printing. They claim on p. xvii "The fiftieth anniversary edition of The Little Red Book has not been changed from its original version," and go on to note they changed the original page references to Alcoholics Anonymous as up to the mid-fifties they were to the First Edition. The first half-dozen or so printings of the book had many changes from printing to printing. It was apparent in looking at the 50th that it is a copy of the MCMXLIX (1949) unstated Fifth Printing, not the MCMXLVI (1946) original printing. The unstated Fifth was the first to use the title Little Red Book, which is used in the 50th. The original title was The Twelve Steps. This contribution is meant to be historical and not a judgement of the relative worths of early and current printings of the two books. Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8021. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1954 10th Little Red Book From: Dudley Dobinson . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/8/2011 4:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Jason In the long period I spent collecting LRB's I managed to get all of the first 25 printings from 1946 to 1970. with one exception the elusive 10th. I have never seen it offered on eBay or any of the major on line booksellers like Abebooks and have serious doubts as to whether any such printing was made! The logical choice would be to ask Hazelden. I am assuming they have an archivist and also depends on what sort of records they have. Knowing someone who works there would be good start. Good luck on your search and please keep us informed. Dudley D. Birr,Ireland. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8022. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Lists and firsts: Amos, Golden Road, 226 Akron, 1st ed. foreword From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/8/2011 4:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Fred David Levine and Jared Lobdell - - - - From: Fred David Levine (mbfdl at rcn.com) Thank you for this question ... I've wondered, too ... Fred - - - - From: "J. Lobdell" (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) Anne S[----] counted Bill as Akron AA no. 1 [notes in John Hay Library at Brown]. Isn't the Amos list from his visit to Akron? Clarence had been part of Akron before there was a Cleveland group. Fitz and Bill R and some other NY people came on road trips to Akron, but except for Bill W they were mostly recognizably NY-not-Akron. Cleveland generally was not recognizably not-Akron. Some have suggested the "100" is a lot closer to 77 (from signatures in a copy of the BB at GSO [not Ginny M's 'first BB sold']. Check with jax760 on how he got his choices in The Golden Road [which attempt to combine NY and Akron and anyone else]. - - - - > From: ineedpage63@cox.net > Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 > > Learned Historians > > I am starting to become comfortable with the parts of AA history that are hazy and always will be, but I do not like it. Woody from Akron posted an anecdote regarding the "f" word used in historical applications and that word is FIRST. > > I am confused about the documentation of our early members. The Amos list, contains 43 names, including Dr. Bob but not Bill Wilson. The Golden Road counts the first 40, including Bob and Bill AND Hank Parkhurst, who is NOT on the Amos List. The "First 226 Members Akron, OH AA Group" includes Bob and Bill and Clarence, the latter two being part of New York and Cleveland respectively. The Akron list counts some members associated with other pioneer groups (New York and Cleveland) but not others, most notably Hank or Fitz Mayo. I realize there were/are different methodology in calculating members and sober time amongst our pioneer members and co-founders, but is even a little consistency in this important area too much to ask for? > > Lastly, in the Foreword to the First Edition the authors state there were "more than 100 men and women who have recovered." Laying aside the many possible interpretations of "recovered," were there actually 100 at that time? Either when the manuscript was being written (seems unlikely) or even when the book was published? Thanks as always for your help. > > In Service With Gratitude, > > Chuck Parkhurst IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8023. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Markings newsletter list From: Joseph HerronJr. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/10/2011 11:09:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Charles, Go to GSO Archives for the entire listing of Markings that was printed, which was started in 1997 and then a big break before they started printing Markings again in 2002. Glad to here from my old friend and buddy. Joseph H. - - - - --- On Thu, 12/8/11, Charles wrote: Does anyone have a list of Markings Newsletters complete with volume, number and date? I am especially interested in the early issues. Seems there were a couple issues numbered incorrectly. I am trying to determine which issues I am missing before writing New York to see if I can get photo or scanned PDF copies. Any help would be appreciated. Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8024. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 24 Hours A Day - differences between original and modern eds? From: gcdavid1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/9/2011 8:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There are two different 50th Anniversary Editions by Hazelden. There is the padded leather version with a gold gift box and ribbon marker which I believe Tommy is refering to, and the Edition referenced by trish, that has rounded corners, and 50th Anniversary logo on the cover. The forward by Bill Pittman is titled "Forward to Hazelden's 50th Anniversary Edition of the original Twenty-Four Hours a Day." My wife has been kind enough to upload photos for me of this book, along with the two copies Jason asked about and a Daytona printed copy that we have in our collection. Since embarking on my new career as a commodities relocation specialist, (aka truck driver) I'm rarely home long enough to get in some good reading/studying time that I once enjoyed. http://s304.photobucket.com/albums/nn179/mvmatthew/AA%2024%2050th/ http://s304.photobucket.com/albums/nn179/mvmatthew/AA%2024%20Hour%20Daytona/ http://s304.photobucket.com/albums/nn179/mvmatthew/AA%2024%20Hour%201st%20Bl ack/ http://s304.photobucket.com/albums/nn179/mvmatthew/AA%2024%20Hour%20Green/ David M. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Tom Hickcox wrote: > > On 12/5/2011, trysh travis wrote: > (trysh.travis at gmail.com) > >I don't have my notes in front of me, but I believe that the 50th > >anniversary edition of *24 hours a Day,* edited by Bill Pittman, > >claimed to present the text as it was originally published *by > >Hazelden*. Whether it was totally true to the original, privately > >published editions or not is difficult to know; I have never been > >able to find one of those old copies. > > There is no claim in the 50th Anniversary Edition that it is the text > in the original, early Hazelden editions. > > Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8025. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 24 Hours A Day - differences between original and modern eds? From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/10/2011 12:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is a bit of confusion in two of the recent postings (see at the bottom for the relevant portions of those two messages). Only one of the commemorative editions was a 50th anniversary edition; the other one they referred to was a 40th anniversary edition. ============================================= FORTIETH ANNIVERSARY EDITION: Printed (and copyrighted) in 1994 to commemorate the 40th anniversary of the first Hazelden edition which came out in 1954. This was NOT issued to commemorate the actual first edition of the 24 Hour book, which was printed in Florida by the Daytona Beach AA group in 1948. (The original 1948 edition was written by an AA member and published by AA members for AA members.) This Hazelden 40th anniversary edition has a round gold seal IN THE MIDDLE OF the front cover, with a sun embossed in the seal, and the words TWENTY-FOUR HOURS A DAY at the bottom of the gold seal. At its beginning it has a section entitled "Foreword to the 40th Anniversary Edition," which is an excellent historical introduction to the book. This foreword is written by Mel B. of Toledo, Ohio (NOT by Bill Pittman). A comparison with Message 8017 from Glenn Chesnut and Tommy Hickcox http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/8017 shows that this 40th anniversary edition uses THE MODERN version of the text (which appears in copies bought today) and NOT one of the early versions of the text. ============================================= ============================================= FIFTIETH ANNIVERSARY EDITION: It has a small gold embossing, basically square in design (rather than round), AT THE BOTTOM of the front cover, with 50th written in larger letters and the name HAZELDEN written in smaller letters at the bottom of the embossed design. This is the first one which David M. posted a photo of, see: http://s304.photobucket.com/albums/nn179/mvmatthew/AA%2024%2050th/ It says copyright 1954 on the inside of the title page, but uses the modern zip code for Hazelden's address (55012-0176) plus modern toll free phone number and fax number (1-800-328-9000 and1-651-231-4590) as well as the URL for the Hazelden web page on the internet: www.hazelden.org). It has round edges on the front and back covers. On pages iii and iv it has a short section written by Bill Pittman entitled "Foreword to Hazelden's 50th anniversary edition of the original Twenty-Four Hours a Day." This is followed by an autobiographical memoir which Richmond Walker wrote. The original typescript, as typed by Rich, is in an archives in Florida. Bill Pittman to the contrary, Mel Barger and I both believe that this was not an actual talk and that it was never delivered as a speech. It was intended by Rich (from the beginning) simply to be a written memoir talking about his life and how he got sober in AA. Bill Pittman was often a little careless about his dates, facts, and/or phrasing of his statements. This book was NOT a reproduction of the genuine first printing and first edition of the 24 Hour book, which was printed in Florida in 1948 by the Daytona Beach AA group. If you look carefully at what Bill Pittman says at the beginning of his Foreword, he says: "Hazelden ... is making available the original 1954 version of Twenty-Four Hours a Day." Or in other words, this 50th anniversary edition does not claim to be a reproduction of the original 1948 Florida version, but of the first Hazelden printing of the book in 1954. In fact, from the old fashioned type font (which is probably a Bodoni font, which was a very commonly used font back then, although one which is hardly ever used today) this was probably a photocopy of one of the original 1954 copies. A comparison with Message 8017 from Glenn Chesnut and Tommy Hickcox http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/8017 shows that this 50th anniversary edition uses AN EARLY version of the text, NOT the gender neutral version which is used in the modern printings. ============================================= ******************** ORIGINAL MESSAGE FROM DAVID M: From: "gcdavid1" There are two different 50th Anniversary Editions by Hazelden. There is the padded leather version with a gold gift box and ribbon marker which I believe Tommy is refering to, and the Edition referenced by trish, that has rounded corners, and 50th Anniversary logo on the cover. The forward by Bill Pittman is titled "Forward to Hazelden's 50th Anniversary Edition of the original Twenty-Four Hours a Day." ORIGINAL MESSAGE FROM TOMMY HICKCOX AND TRYSH TRAVIS: From: Tom Hickcox : > > On 12/5/2011, trysh travis wrote: > (trysh.travis at gmail.com) > >I don't have my notes in front of me, but I believe that the 50th > >anniversary edition of *24 hours a Day,* edited by Bill Pittman, > >claimed to present the text as it was originally published *by > >Hazelden*. Whether it was totally true to the original, privately > >published editions or not is difficult to know; I have never been > >able to find one of those old copies. > > There is no claim in the 50th Anniversary Edition that it is the text > in the original, early Hazelden editions. > > Tommy H in Danville ******************** IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8026. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 24 Hours A Day - differences between original and modern eds? From: gcdavid1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/11/2011 12:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Pictures of Hazeldens other 50th anniversary edition.... http://s304.photobucket.com/albums/nn179/mvmatthew/AA%2024%2050th%20Gold/ --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Chesnut wrote: > > There is a bit of confusion in two of the recent postings (see at the bottom for the relevant portions of those two messages). Only one of the commemorative editions was a 50th anniversary edition; the other one they referred to was a 40th anniversary edition. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8027. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 24 Hours A Day - differences between original and modern eds? From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/10/2011 5:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Several years ago Hazelden had a museum page on their website. Bill Pttman was involved somehow and one of the things that was posted there was the original manuscript for the Twenty-Four Hour A Day Book. Today I wish I had saved every page but at the time I thought it was too big of file for my computer so I only save a few selected pages ..... 5 all total. I do not remember anything about the manuscript but it does show some changes. Now whether these changes were made by Richmond or Hazelden I don't know. I never have sat down to compare the changes. I don't use this meditation book any more so I have nothing to compare it to. I have put these few pages on a PDF. If anyone wants a copy email me and I will send them to you. Hope this helps a little Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8028. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 24 Hours A Day - differences between original and modern eds? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/10/2011 2:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ORIGINAL MESSAGE FROM DAVID M: ==================== >There are two different 50th Anniversary Editions by Hazelden. There >is the padded leather version with a gold gift box and ribbon marker >which I believe Tommy is refering to, and the Edition referenced by >trish, that has rounded corners, and 50th Anniversary logo on the >cover. The forward by Bill Pittman is titled "Forward to Hazelden's >50th Anniversary Edition of the original Twenty-Four Hours a Day." ==================== Thanks. I wasn't aware that there were two 50th Anniversary Editions. Something more to look for. ==================== >My wife has been kind enough to upload photos for me of this book, >along with the two copies Jason asked about and a Daytona printed >copy that we have in our collection. ==================== Thank your wife for doing this. It is so good to have these photos and to be able to refer to them. She has done an outstanding job and I for one appreciate her and you taking the time to share this material with us. Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8029. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 24 Hours A Day - differences between original and modern eds? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/10/2011 3:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 12:40 12/10/2011, Glenn Chesnut wrote: > >If you look carefully at what Bill Pittman says at the beginning of >his Foreword, he says: > >"Hazelden ... is making available the original 1954 version of >Twenty-Four Hours a Day." > >Or in other words, this 50th anniversary edition does not claim to >be a reproduction of the original 1948 Florida version, but of the >first Hazelden printing of the book in 1954. In fact, from the old >fashioned type font (which is probably a Bodoni font, which was a >very commonly used font back then, although one which is hardly ever >used today) this was probably a photocopy of one of the original 1954 copies. _________________________________________ I looked at my early, round-cornered printings and find they divert from what is shown at the 5th photo here: http://s304.photobucket.com/albums/nn179/mvmatthew/AA%2024%2050th/ The font on the anniversary edition is a bit smaller and there are more words on the lines than in the original. I really don't know the processes for transferring print from one book so it can be printed in another. Also, in some of the original/round-cornered, the entry for Feb. 28th is an even numbered/left page and sometimes odd numbered/right page. This sort of thing interests mostly those of us who need to get a life. Thanks again, David, for making this information available. I would note that the original Hazelden printings had art work, drawings of the facility. The 50th Anniversary Edition we are discussing here doesn't. Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8030. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 24 Hours A Day - differences between original and modern eds? From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/10/2011 4:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If I am not mistaken there were two 50th editions of this book - one celebrating the 50th anniversary of the printing of the Twenty-Four Hour A Day book (1948 - 1998) and the other the 50th anniversary of Hazelden (1949 - 1999). The one that bears the Hazelden logo is the one commemorating Hazelden's 50th anniversary. I think this is what's causing the confusion. Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8034. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: The Oxford Group in Cambridge? the Jacoby Club and the 24 Hour book From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/6/2011 10:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The moderator had posted the following which merits further discussion: ROWLAND HAZARD: Courtenay Baylor began working with Father Worcester in 1912, focusing solely on those with alcohol problems, and became the other key leader in the movement in later years. What was of special importance to A.A. was Baylor's influence on Rowland Hazard. In this book, Dubiel shows how Hazard had to be hospitalized for his alcoholism in February and March of 1932, and then from January 1933 to October 1934 was again in bad shape and unable to carry on his business activities. But then he explains how Courtenay Baylor became Rowland Hazard's therapist in 1933, and continued to work with him through 1934. It was under the influence of Baylor's Emmanuel Movement therapy (with its combination of spirituality and simple lay therapy) that Hazard actually began to recover. Hazard was also attending Oxford Group meetings, but his family was paying Baylor to be his regular therapist. In August 1934, of course, Hazard helped rescue Ebby Thacher from being committed to the Brattleboro Asylum, and three months later, in November 1934, Ebby visited Bill Wilson in his kitchen, in the famous scene recorded in the first chapter of the Big Book. Back in October I listened intently as Cora Finch spoke in Pennsylvania of Rowland's History. In 1926 he first visited Jung in Zurich and apparently sobered up for a time but did relapse. She told how Rowland, while in Africa in 1929, had a spiritual experience while reading Begbie's book about the Oxford Group "Life Changers", and his then coming into contact with the Oxford Group through his cousin Susan Keith. Again he sobered up and again after a period of sobriety he relapsed. As Dubiel wrote and Laura verifies that between 1933 and 1934 there is evidence that Rowland was treated by Courtenay Baylor (checks written to Baylor by the Hazard family). However, the following statement is debateable and unsubstantiated: " It was under the influence of Baylor's Emmanuel Movement therapy (with its combination of spirituality and simple lay therapy) that Hazard actually began to recover." The nature and extent of Baylor's work with Rowland is unknown and undocumented (If I recall correctly, Laura please chime in if I am mistaken). It's possible that Rowland was helped by Baylor in some way but where do we find Rowland in 1934 after he has sobered up again? When the apple fell from the tree it in landed with the Oxford Group. Where does Rowland bring Ebby? To the Oxford Group! Does Rowland tell Ebby about all the help he received from Baylor and that he "began to recover" only after working with Baylor? No he tells Ebby of Jung and religious conversion. Is Rowland or Ebby carrying the message of Baylor and the Emmanuel Movement to Bill Wilson? No! He carries the message and program of action that is/was working for him. He is working with and through the Oxford Group and carrying their message as a part of one of Shoemaker's business teams. Did Rowland relapse again after he "actually began to recover" yes! Not once but probably twice before his death. Rowland "recovered" each time albeit temporarily, it would seem, by finding a sprirtual basis for living (God first, other people second, me last). Perhaps it was only "religiomania" that kept Rowland sober each time. No doubt Rowland was a hard case and frequently caved in to the obsession. When he relapsed in 1936 it would appear that Rowland's family sought help from Jung again who told them he can't do it better than Jesus. In the end.....I think Rowland has proved not to be a "poster child" for any program of "recovery". He struggled and continued to struggle with staying sober till the day he died despite the availability and love of God, Jesus, OG, AA, Jung, Baylor, family, business, etc. Rowland was a real alcoholic and likely unable to give himself completely to anything for any legnth of time! His contribution to AA, even though his story as told by AA, is "legendary" and possibly more anecdotal than fact, was immense, inspirational to early AAs and to me for that matter, and surely a divine contribution. Spiritus contra spiritum! God Bless John B [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8035. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: RE: Lists and firsts: Amos, Golden Road, 226 Akron, 1st ed. foreword From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/12/2011 9:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As Jared notes The Golden Road is an attempt to provide a single comprehensive list with citations supporting the inclusion of each name of The First Forty as well as their likely pecking order.The existing lists mentioned and others reflect the early practices of the fellowship which considered east (NY), west (Akron) and then later, cleveland, as almost seperate organizations and counted/numbered the members without regards for any other branch. Thus the practice (perhaps incorrect and misleading) of stating Joe XXX as Akron # 5 and Hank XXX as NY # 2.  The Amos list dealt specifically with the Akronites as the purpose of Frank's visit to Akron in Feb 38 was to survey and report on the efforts and membership there by and of Dr Bob.  I recall how frustrating all of this was for me as I began to sort through it all. Still sorting but now it's fun to keep adding and learning. I will post a complete list of "The First One Hundred" (without the citations) and will let this forum and have a crack at it. Might be interesting?  God Bless  John B ________________________________ From: J. Lobdell To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2011 4:33 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Lists and firsts: Amos, Golden Road, 226 Akron, 1st ed. foreword  From Fred David Levine and Jared Lobdell - - - - From: Fred David Levine (mbfdl at rcn.com) Thank you for this question ... I've wondered, too ... Fred - - - - From: "J. Lobdell" (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) Anne S[----] counted Bill as Akron AA no. 1 [notes in John Hay Library at Brown]. Isn't the Amos list from his visit to Akron? Clarence had been part of Akron before there was a Cleveland group. Fitz and Bill R and some other NY people came on road trips to Akron, but except for Bill W they were mostly recognizably NY-not-Akron. Cleveland generally was not recognizably not-Akron. Some have suggested the "100" is a lot closer to 77 (from signatures in a copy of the BB at GSO [not Ginny M's 'first BB sold']. Check with jax760 on how he got his choices in The Golden Road [which attempt to combine NY and Akron and anyone else]. - - - - > From: ineedpage63@cox.net > Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 > > Learned Historians > > I am starting to become comfortable with the parts of AA history that are hazy and always will be, but I do not like it. Woody from Akron posted an anecdote regarding the "f" word used in historical applications and that word is FIRST. > > I am confused about the documentation of our early members. The Amos list, contains 43 names, including Dr. Bob but not Bill Wilson. The Golden Road counts the first 40, including Bob and Bill AND Hank Parkhurst, who is NOT on the Amos List. The "First 226 Members Akron, OH AA Group" includes Bob and Bill and Clarence, the latter two being part of New York and Cleveland respectively. The Akron list counts some members associated with other pioneer groups (New York and Cleveland) but not others, most notably Hank or Fitz Mayo. I realize there were/are different methodology in calculating members and sober time amongst our pioneer members and co-founders, but is even a little consistency in this important area too much to ask for? > > Lastly, in the Foreword to the First Edition the authors state there were "more than 100 men and women who have recovered." Laying aside the many possible interpretations of "recovered," were there actually 100 at that time? Either when the manuscript was being written (seems unlikely) or even when the book was published? Thanks as always for your help. > > In Service With Gratitude, > > Chuck Parkhurst [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8036. . . . . . . . . . . . Study mentioned in the 12 and 12 From: Tom . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/12/2011 11:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In Step 12 there is a paragraph about a study that compared alcoholics with non-alcoholics.. "When A.A. was quite young, a number of eminent psychologists and doctors made an exhaustive study of a good-sized group of socalled problem drinkers. The doctors weren't trying to find how different we were from one another; they sought to find whatever personality traits, if any, this group of alcoholics had in common. They finally came up with a conclusion that shocked the A.A. members of that time. These distinguished men had the nerve to say that most of the alcoholics under investigation were still childish, emotionally sensitive, and grandiose." Does anybody know anything about this study? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8038. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: WAIT -- Re: Tom Powers and Bill Wilson and the writing of the 12 and 12 From: Ernie Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/12/2011 5:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thanks, Matt. I sort of prefer writing to speaking, not least because I am a poor note-taker. There are of course also disadvantages to that, but let me try one question in this format, please, if I may? Did Tom's telling of his relationship with Bill change over time? I trust you are aware how fragile memories can be. especially when freighted with emotions or after new information comes in. Given how long Tom and Bill lived, I find it difficult to believe that there were no mutual friends who might have kept them updated on each other, at least once in a while. Just sort of fishing, I guess; but I see two men who did much good and surely realized that about each other, as deep as some disagreements may have been. So, . . . anything you can recall along that line? ernie On Nov 18, 2011, at 9:11 PM, Matt Dingle wrote: > Ernie, > I'd be more than glad to talk with anyone. Just like the few times we got to talk some of these things out over the phone. Hope you're well. > Matt > > ________________________________ > From: Ernie Kurtz > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 3:54 PM > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Tom Powers and Bill Wilson and the writing of the 12 and 12 > > > Matt, > > How about making it available to the whole AAHL list? > > ernie kurtz > > ========================================= > > From: Matt Dingle > > (mdingle76 at yahoo.com) > > > > Fred, > > I can probably tell you what you want to know: 845-887-6575. > > Matt > ========================================= > > Original question from: mbfdl (mbfdl at rcn.com) > > I've recently heard about Tom Powers and his relationship to Bill and the writing of the 12 and 12. Can you point me in the direction of historically accurate information about Tom, his relationship with Bill and the literature, and his break with Bill, along with the reasons for this? > Thanks, > Fred > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8039. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Study mentioned in the 12 and 12 From: Laurence Holbrook . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/12/2011 5:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Message 5419 mentions has a transcription of a talk given by Bill and references a paper by Howard W. Haggard, The Physician and the Problem of Alcoholism, Bull.N.Y. Acad Med 1945 Sept, 21 (9) 451-466 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5419 The entire thread discusses the issue at length - _____ From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 10:49 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Study mentioned in the 12 and 12 In Step 12 there is a paragraph about a study that compared alcoholics with non-alcoholics.. "When A.A. was quite young, a number of eminent psychologists and doctors made an exhaustive study of a good-sized group of socalled problem drinkers. The doctors weren't trying to find how different we were from one another; they sought to find whatever personality traits, if any, this group of alcoholics had in common. They finally came up with a conclusion that shocked the A.A. members of that time. These distinguished men had the nerve to say that most of the alcoholics under investigation were still childish, emotionally sensitive, and grandiose." Does anybody know anything about this study? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8042. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: WAIT -- Early ''40''s in California From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/12/2011 7:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sally  I might suggest you contact Area 93 Archives. They cover San Fernando Valley CA which includes Hollywood. Their email address is: archives@aaarea93.org They might need a last name too Hope it helps  Charles from Wisconsin >________________________________ >From: Sally >To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 5:34 AM >Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] WAIT -- Early '40's in California > > > >I am new here and was referred to Glenn. > >I am searching for my late Grandmother's early roots in AA. She became a member in California in the early '40's and her name was Shirley. She was an actress in Hollywood. I know it's a long shot, but thought I'd ask here if anyone may remember her. > >Thank you. Sally > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8043. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Study mentioned in the 12 and 12 From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/13/2011 8:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII You can go to a pdf of the talk here <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1870440/pdf/bullnyacadmed00522\ -0008.pdf [36]> It's an interesting read. +=+=+=+=+ Message 5419 mentions has a transcription of a talk given by Bill and references a paper by Howard W. Haggard, The Physician and the Problem of Alcoholism, Bull.N.Y. Acad Med 1945 Sept, 21 (9) 451-466 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5419 The entire thread discusses the issue at length - _____ From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 10:49 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Study mentioned in the 12 and 12 In Step 12 there is a paragraph about a study that compared alcoholics with non-alcoholics.. "When A.A. was quite young, a number of eminent psychologists and doctors made an exhaustive study of a good-sized group of socalled problem drinkers. The doctors weren't trying to find how different we were from one another; they sought to find whatever personality traits, if any, this group of alcoholics had in common. They finally came up with a conclusion that shocked the A.A. members of that time. These distinguished men had the nerve to say that most of the alcoholics under investigation were still childish, emotionally sensitive, and grandiose." Does anybody know anything about this study? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8045. . . . . . . . . . . . The moderator is out of the hospital now From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/13/2011 5:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I had to go into the hospital for a heart catheterization. Everything is O.K. now, and I am back home. I asked someone to take care of posting messages on the AAHistoryLovers while I was out of action, and through no fault of that person, several messages were inadvertently posted where some further discussion was needed before trundling them out in public. Either the message perhaps needed to be reworded more diplomatically, or maybe it should have been sent privately to the person at whom it was actually directed, or possibly it shouldn't even have been posted at all. As a result some people were deeply offended and others got their feathers ruffled. I removed those messages, also a couple of the responses to them. For the good of the group, let's please start over with a clean slate all around. And let's please get the group back on track (things started getting out of line back in October too) and let's avoid anything that starts looking like being a troll, or where we are speaking very abusively to other members. Glenn IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8046. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill''s Story - The Original Version From: Roy Levin . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2011 7:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is interesting, where did you get this "pre-multilith" version? Was it in some AA archive? From: jax760 Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 Subject: Bill's Story - The Original Version ... we have placed on line a pre-multilith version of Bill's Story .... AA members are invited to download the document at the link below. God Bless John B http://bbsgsonj.webs.com/apps/documents/categories/show/48209 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8047. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rockefeller Dinner From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/16/2011 1:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This was the same Nelson Rockefeller that eventually was appointed vice president of the Unites States, correct? [Nelson Aldrich Rockefeller, 1908–1979, was the 41st Vice President of the United States, 1974–1977, serving under President Gerald Ford] -----Original Message----- From: Mike Batty Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 Subject: Re: Rockefeller Dinner I have read it somewhere and do not remember where, that Nelson Rockefeller subbed for his father, John D Jr., as chairman due to the elder's illness. I realize this is not accurate history to just rely on memory but hopefully someone can come up with passage and actual quote. Mike Batty Waterloo, Ontario IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8048. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill''s Story - The Original Version From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2011 2:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This was the draft that Bill completed along with Chapter One "There is a Solution," and that Bill wrote and circulated back in June of 1938. They (Hank and Bill) began to shop it around and see if there was interest in publishing it. I believe this was the version that went to Gene Exman at Harpers who offered Bill a $1,500 advance. - - - - GO HERE FOR THE ORIGINAL VERSION OF BILL'S STORY: http://bbsgsonj.webs.com/apps/documents/categories/show/48209 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8049. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Oxford Group in Cambridge? the Jacoby Club and the 24 Hour book From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/13/2011 8:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I don't think the perspective of Richard Dubiel, as summarized by Glenn, diminishes the role of the Oxford Group in Rowland's life. Rowland certainly had tolerance for ambiguity, and his improvement under Baylor's care should serve as a reminder that the OG was not the only game in town. John makes a good point about Rowland's 1928 conversion experience. As a solitary event, it didn't prevent him from returning to his old habits a few weeks out of the hospital. But the binge was a relatively short one, and after he sobered up he stayed that way for a while. Maybe the clarity he acquired in that "bolt from the blue" experience finally allowed him to get a handle on his problems. It may or may not be significant that the doctor who took care of him after he returned to the States had views very similar to the Emmanuel people. To me it seems that,in relation to alcoholism although not other issues, the two groups--Emmanuel and Oxford, with clergymen Shoemaker and Worcester--were more alike than different. Shoemaker and Worcester did occupy opposite poles of the Episcopal spectrum, but there is some evidence of mutual positive regard. For example, Baylor's trainee Richard Peabody opened his New York office a half a block from Calvary. Doesn't it seem likely that Rowland's active involvement with the Oxford Group in 1933 was suggested or encouraged by Baylor? They were staying at the Glastonbury, Vermont property and so were not far from the Williamstown meetings. Cora IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8050. . . . . . . . . . . . Important Moment in AA History: E-book format for Big Book and 12 & 12! From: WENDI TURNER . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/13/2011 7:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII BIG NEWS! The Big Book (Alcoholics Anonymous) and Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions are now available in an e-book format! Go to http://www.aa.org - - - - http://www.aa.org/lang/en/subpage.cfm?page=440 https://eps.aaws.org/default.aspx?lang=en A.A.W.S. Online Store An Apple Device is required to download and read eBooks purchased from this website. The A.A. eReader, an "App" that A.A.W.S. provides at no cost, is required to download and read eBooks purchased through the A.A.W.S. Online Store. The A.A. eReader is currently available for Apple iPhone and iPod Touch devices and may be obtained through the Apple Appstore. Though the current App may be used on an iPad it is not an iPad specific App. A version for Android-based smartphones will be available in early 2012. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8051. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Tom Powers and Bill Wilson and the writing of the 12 and 12 From: Matt Dingle . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2011 9:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ernie, As far as I can tell the love, gratitude, and respect that these two guys had for each other was immense and maybe even unfathomable (especially in these days of dramas and soap operas). You'd have to understand this story through that lens and none other. If they fought -- it was out of love. If they disagreed -- it was out of love. (I hate to sound so damn corny here but these two guys were sincere God men and Program men and they had the capacity to love each other like most people in "regular life" are just unable to. Of course, AA in its early days was nothing like "regular life" for it started with a desperate and broken down man having a direct vision of God Almighty.) Oh, these guys were human and therefore had their faults but I don't really think that the modern sources that tell this story have it right at all. Yes, an event did occur that severed a working relationship between these two men. But, it was only a working relationship not a brotherly relationship and certainly not a Program relationship. From that event till Bill's death they wrote, spoke, and met. There was neither hostility nor resentment. And anyone who knew both men had no idea that anything was different. Tom was busy founding East Ridge and Bill was involved in his AA duties. These men mean a lot to me. And I hope they won't be unhappy with me for this response. As for the rest of this group -- well, you can't please everyone. Matt - - - - From: Ernie Kurtz Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 Subject: Re: Tom Powers and Bill Wilson and the writing of the 12 and 12 Thanks, Matt. I sort of prefer writing to speaking, not least because I am a poor note-taker. There are of course also disadvantages to that, but let me try one question in this format, please, if I may? Did Tom's telling of his relationship with Bill change over time? I trust you are aware how fragile memories can be. especially when freighted with emotions or after new information comes in. Given how long Tom and Bill lived, I find it difficult to believe that there were no mutual friends who might have kept them updated on each other, at least once in a while. Just sort of fishing, I guess; but I see two men who did much good and surely realized that about each other, as deep as some disagreements may have been. So, . . . anything you can recall along that line? ernie On Nov 18, 2011, at 9:11 PM, Matt Dingle wrote: > Ernie, > I'd be more than glad to talk with anyone. Just like the few times we got to talk some of these things out over the phone. Hope you're well. > Matt - - - - > From: Ernie Kurtz > Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 > Subject: Re: Tom Powers and Bill Wilson and the writing of the 12 and 12 > > Matt, > > How about making it available to the whole AAHL list? > > ernie kurtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8052. . . . . . . . . . . . Merton M''s Black Sheep manuscript From: dave . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/16/2011 7:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Whatever happened to Merton M.'s Black Sheep manuscript? Thanks to all, Dave IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8053. . . . . . . . . . . . Old speaker tape From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/17/2011 11:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a guy looking for a talk by Sam D at the 8th southeastern regional convention of AA held in New Orleans in July 10-12, 1952. Could any of you suggest where he should look? Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8054. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Old speaker tape From: Mary Moore . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2011 9:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I believe that Dicobe Tapes has the tape of Sam D. Denny IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8056. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Mel B., Glenn Chesnut, Wyatt Mullinax - 3rd Trad. - in FtWayne From: Bryan S. Reid . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/19/2011 1:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Any chance that someone could tape this and share it? I'd love to hear this, but Ft. Wayne is a bit of a hike from Sierra Vista, Arizona. Peace and serenity, Bryan - - - - - - - - - - > Sat., January 13, 2012 10:00 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. > > Fort Wayne, Indiana -- 2nd Annual Symposium > > Tradition 3: The only requirement for A.A. > membership is a desire to stop drinking > > ============ > THE SPEAKERS: > > MEL B. (Toledo, Ohio), co-author of Pass It On, the biography of Bill > Wilson, plus numerous other books on AA history and spirituality > > GLENN CHESNUT (South Bend, Indiana), Professor Emeritus of History and > Religious Studies at Indiana University, the creator of hindsfoot.com > > Dr. WYATT MULLINAX (Fort Wayne, Indiana), Commission for a Drug Free > Indiana, author of the Cognitive Skill Training program used by the Indiana > Department of Correction in its facilities, including Substance Abuse > Treatment and Pre-Release/Transition Programming > ============ > > Symposium flyer: http://hindsfoot.org/zz-ftwayne-symposium.pdf > > Ft. Wayne map w/ library: http://hindsfoot.org/zz-ftwayne-map.pdf > > Allen County Public Library Auditorium > 900 Library Plaza, Fort Wayne, IN 46802 > phone (260) 421-1200 > > Luncheon (provided by the Fort Wayne Area Intergroup) will immediately > follow the Symposium in Rooms A and B. The luncheon will include chicken, > pulled pork, mashed potatoes and green beans. > > Admission is free, but you will need a ticket for the luncheon. There will > be 120 tickets distributed through the Intergroup reps for the free > luncheon. (There will be some tickets also available at the door, but on a > first-come first-served basis, so get there early and leave late!) > > We will serve coffee, doughnuts, and pop before the Symposium, another > reason to get there early! > > Questions? Need more information call: > > Ray M. (260) 804-6661 > > Andy D. (260) 579-0770 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8057. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rockefeller Dinner From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/19/2011 4:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Yes this is the same person. He and his Grandfather John D Sr., had the same birthday - July 8, 1908. Nelson was 4-time governor of New York 1958 - 1970 and twice ran for the nomination of the Republican Party for President. He was defeated by Richard Nixon in 1960 and later Barry Goldwater in 1964. He was Vice president 1974 to 1977 and passed away Jan 27, 1979. >________________________________ >From: Chuck Parkhurst >Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 >Subject: Re: Rockefeller Dinner > >This was the same Nelson Rockefeller that eventually was appointed vice president of the Unites States, correct? > >[Nelson Aldrich Rockefeller, 1908-1979, was the 41st Vice President of the United States, 1974-1977, serving under President Gerald Ford] > >-----Original Message----- >From: Mike Batty >Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 >Subject: Re: Rockefeller Dinner > >I have read it somewhere and do not remember where, that Nelson Rockefeller subbed for his father, John D Jr., as chairman due to the elder's illness. > >Mike Batty >Waterloo, Ontario IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8058. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back From: John French . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/20/2011 12:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would love to verify the claim that John D. Rockefeller, Jr. once said that of all the donations he had given to charity, AA was the only one that paid him back in full. John French IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8059. . . . . . . . . . . . 20 page guide Highroad to Happiness From: jaw24hours . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/20/2011 9:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Published by the Brighter Side group of Waterloo, Iowa in the 1940 to 1950 era. I can only find their guide to the 4th step at silkworth.net. Anyone know where I can get more information online about early A.A. in the Waterloo, Iowa area? I am also interested in anything concerning A.A. in Northeast Iowa. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8060. . . . . . . . . . . . Vincent T. Tracy Farms Treatment Center 1930''s to 40''s From: gadgetsdad . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/21/2011 11:24:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I just purchased a brochure for The Vincent T. Tracy Farms Treatment Center. This was located northwest of Ravena, New York, in Coeymans Hollow. By the dress of the people in the photos and the listing of airlines this dates from the late 30's to early 40's. Any members have any background on him or his treatment methods? Brad I. Area 35 Archivist IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8061. . . . . . . . . . . . Names of the First One Hundred From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/21/2011 12:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Fellow History Lovers, Below are the names of more than 125 "pioneers" who are believed to have been involved with the fellowship prior to, or up to and including, April of 1939. There are only two people listed whose last names have remained elusive. I believe this is the most comprehensive list of pioneering members produced to date. The sources for this list are varied and include AA literature, several different archives, personal letters, diaries, the work of other historians including published and unpublished manuscripts, other known lists such as The Cleveland Akron 220/226, Pioneers by Date of Sobriety, A New Light on the First Forty, The NJ Survey from Jan 1940,The Amos List, Who's Who in AA, etc. Sober dates have been determined as best as possible from the sources listed and taking into account that a person's "spiritual birthday" sometimes did not factor in a known relapse such as Dr Bob's date listed as May of 34 (see the comments for the Amos List SOB in The Golden Road) Are there many more names that should be on this list? I suspect the answer is yes! I have no info on new members in Akron for the first few months of 1939 and no doubt there were several, perhaps many! More research is required at a future date. Were there "One Hundred Men and Women" on or before the book was published April 10,1939? Bill wrote many many times to different people that there were and the available evidence seems to support this. Many historians and authors who counted less than 100 previously might not have had access to all the lists including the Amos List (for example compare to Pioneer by Date of Sobriety List). Others may have followed statements made by some pioneers like Jimmy Burwell who said Bill rounded up or exaggerated the claim. Was Jimmy well informed? Did he know who all the Akron/Cleveland members were? Not all of his recorded AA history (memoirs) have proved accurate. Perhaps we've been wrong all along in saying there were only 60 to 70? Was everyone on this list still sober or with the fellowship in April of 1939? Probably not but then as noted above there were probably many new members who were not properly documented or remain truly anonymous to us till this day. So perhaps there actually was "One Hundred Men and Women" who were staying sober by following the outlined program when the book came out. I would love to hear if anybody can contribute information on any of the less well know names on this list or any other sources which can be used to prove or disprove the validity or the placement of a name on this list. Does anyone believe a name has been missed? Many believe Ebby should have been included. People like Wes, Eddie, and Russ eventually sobered up, should they be included? Cebra later joined AA in Paris. How about Don, the Cohoes banker who was sober in 36 but then seems to have faded off? Do you have any reasonable evidence to support your claim? Please let me know your comments! PS If anyone can provide me the last name for Gordon S. or Brooke B. both believed to be from New York Group before 1939 I would be forever in your debt! 1 Bill Wilson Dec34 NY 2 Bob Smith May35 Akron 3 Bill Dotson Jun-35 Akron 4 Ernest Galbraith Aug35 Akron 5 Henry Parkhurst Sep35 NJ 6 Walter Bray Sep35 Akron 7 Phil Smith Sep35 Akron 8 John Mayo Oct-35 MD 9 Silas Bent Nov35 CT 10 Harold Grisinger Jan-36 Akron 11 Paul Stanley Jan-36 Akron 12 Tom Lucas Feb36 Akron 13 Myron Williams Apr-36 NY 14 Joseph Doppler Apr-36 Cleveland 15 Robert Oviatt Jun-36 Cleveland 16 Harry Latta Jul-36 Akron 17 James D. Holmes Oct-36 Akron 18 Alfred Smith Jan-37 Akron 19 Alvin Borden Jan-37 Akron 20 Howard Searl Jan-37 Akron 21 William Ruddell Feb37 NJ 22 Douglas Delanoy Feb37 NJ 23 Robert Evans Feb37 Akron 24 Frank Curtis Feb37 Akron 25 Jane Sturdevant Mar-37 Cleveland 26 Harry Zollars Mar-37 Akron 27 Richard Stanley Apr-37 Akron 28 Harlan Spencer Apr-37 Akron 29 Wallace Gillam Apr-37 Akron 30 Lloyd Tate Jun-37 Cleveland 31 William Jones Jun-37 Cleveland 32 Chester Parke Jun-37 Akron 33 Lawrence Patton Jun-37 Akron 34 Paul Kellogg Jul-37 NJ 35 Earl Treat Jul-37 Akron 36 William Van Horn Jul-37 Akron 37 Florence Rankin Sep37 NJ 38 Charles Simonson Sep37 Akron 39 Irvin Nelson Sep37 Akron 40 Frank Krumrine Sep37 Akron 41 Edward Naher Oct-37 Akron 42 Joseph Taylor Oct-37 NJ 43 John Hughes Oct-37 Akron 44 Henry Pearce Nov37 Akron 45 Joe Schaffer Nov37 Akron 46 Frank Hadrick Nov37 Akron 47 Ned Poynter Nov37 NY 48 Fred Johnson Dec37 Akron 49 Wade Hadsell Dec37 Akron 50 George Dovsner Dec37 Akron 51 Harold Schitz Dec37 Akron 52 Carl Reinert Jan-38 Akron 53 Edith Scott Jan-38 Akron 54 Norman Tuit Jan-38 Akron 55 Thurman Traugh Jan-38 Akron 56 Edward Armitage Jan-38 Akron 57 Jack Darrow Jan-38 Akron 58 Kenneth Arthur Jan-38 Akron 59 Edward Brock Jan-38 Akron 60 James Burwell Jan-38 NY 61 Clarence Snyder Feb38 Cleveland 62 Charlie Johns Feb38 Cleveland 63 Raymond Campbell Feb38 NY 64 Van Wagner Feb38 NY 65 Norman Hunt Feb38 CT 66 Harold Sears Feb38 NY 67 Captain Coxe Apr-38 NY 68 George Mullin Apr-38 Akron 69 Herbert Taylor May38 NY 70 Robert Taylor May38 NY 71 George Williams Jun-38 NY 72 Harry Brick Jun-38 NJ 73 Roland (Bob ) Furlong Jun-38 MA 74 William Emerson Jul-38 NY 75 Archie Trowbridge Sep38 MI 76 Horace Maher Sep38 NY 77 James Scott Sep38 Akron 78 Edward Andy Oct-38 Akron 79 John Dolan Oct-38 Cleveland 80 Vaughn Phelps Oct-38 Cleveland 81 Horace Chrystal Oct-38 NY 82 William Hess Oct-38 Cleveland 83 Wallace Gillam Oct-38 Akron 84 Richard Rowe Nov38 Akron 85 Thomas Birrell Nov38 NJ 86 Delmar Tryon Nov38 Akron 87 Morgan Ryan Dec38 NJ 88 Wallace Von Arx Dec38 NJ 89 Joseph Worden Jr. Dec38 NY 90 Eddie Schroeder Jan-39 NJ 91 Patrick Cooper Jan-39 CA 92 William Worton Feb39 NY 93 Robert Volentine Mar-39 NY 94 Ernest MacKenzie Mar-39 NJ 95 Gordon MacDougal Mar-39 NJ 96 Hazel Cloos Mar-39 NJ 97 Herbert Debevoise Mar-39 NJ 98 Fred Hyde Mar-39 NJ 99 Raymond Wood Mar-39 NJ 100 Henry Heller Mar-39 NJ Other Names - Shortly after April 1st or Not Sober or Oxford Groupers Edwin Thacher Rowland Hazard Brooke B Shep Cornell Edgar Reilly Cebra Graves Alec Johnson Ned Foote Gordon S. Russell Rathbone Dr. Crowley Ernest Atkins Ernie Gerig Marty Mann John Reese Albert Golrick Harry Nash Grenville Curtis Freddie Breithut Wes Wymans Don McClean Oscar Vieths Rowland Jones Bill Cousins Sterling Parker Joe Mina Tom Pierce Jackie Williams IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8062. . . . . . . . . . . . Glenn F. Chesnut, God and Spirituality: Philosophical Essays From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/21/2011 12:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn F. Chesnut, God and Spirituality: Philosophical Essays, has now been published as a paperback book and also as an e-book. http://hindsfoot.org/ http://hindsfoot.org/kgs1.html Several chapters can already be downloaded for free (additional chapters are being prepared so that it will also be possible to read them online): http://hindsfoot.org/g02sinai.pdf http://hindsfoot.org/g06grnd.pdf http://hindsfoot.org/g04sacr.pdf http://hindsfoot.org/g05myst.pdf The book discusses a number of topics which are relevant to AA experience: the nature of the conversion experience, traveling through the Cloud of Unknowing and the Dark Night of the Soul, encountering the Anonymous God whom the ancient Greeks worshiped at the Altar to the Unknown God in Athens, God as the Mysterium Tremendum, God as the Ground of Being out of whim the universe exploded in the Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago. It discusses the concept of God and spirituality which we find in Albert Einstein and Paul Tillich: God as an impersonal absolute and religion as a humanistic commitment to moral behavior (a commitment we make in spite of an apparently uncaring universe), in a clockwork universe ruled by rigid natural laws. And it shows how a nearly atheistic system of this sort can still make sense out of the twelve step program and guide us successfully through the Dark Night of the Soul. But it also has chapters on the modern philosopher Charles Hartshorne and other defenders of belief in a totally personal God who presides over a universe of freedom, creativity, and genuine novelty. And it ends with the vision of St. Macarius's warmly personal God, with his hand held under the chariot of our souls, guiding us and holding us up above the Abyss which lies below. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8063. . . . . . . . . . . . CORRECTION: Mel B., Glenn Chesnut, Wyatt Mullinax in FtWayne From: gc628 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/26/2011 9:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The symposium is on Saturday, so THE CORRECT DATE IS THE 14th. Sorry for getting that wrong. Saturday, January 14, 2012 10:00 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. Fort Wayne, Indiana -- 2nd Annual Symposium Tradition 3: The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking ============ THE SPEAKERS: MEL B. (Toledo, Ohio), co-author of Pass It On, the biography of Bill Wilson, plus numerous other books on AA history and spirituality GLENN CHESNUT (South Bend, Indiana), Professor Emeritus of History and Religious Studies at Indiana University, the creator of hindsfoot.com Dr. WYATT MULLINAX (Fort Wayne, Indiana), Commission for a Drug Free Indiana, author of the Cognitive Skill Training program used by the Indiana Department of Correction in its facilities, including Substance Abuse Treatment and Pre-Release/Transition Programming ============ Symposium flyer: http://hindsfoot.org/zz-ftwayne-symposium.pdf Ft. Wayne map w/ library: http://hindsfoot.org/zz-ftwayne-map.pdf Allen County Public Library Auditorium 900 Library Plaza, Fort Wayne, IN 46802 phone (260) 421-1200 Luncheon (provided by the Fort Wayne Area Intergroup) will immediately follow the Symposium in Rooms A and B. The luncheon will include chicken, pulled pork, mashed potatoes and green beans. Admission is free, but you will need a ticket for the luncheon. There will be 120 tickets distributed through the Intergroup reps for the free luncheon. (There will be some tickets also available at the door, but on a first-come first-served basis, so get there early and leave late!) We will serve coffee, doughnuts, and pop before the Symposium, another reason to get there early! Questions? Need more information call: Ray M. (260) 804-6661 Andy D. (260) 579-0770 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8064. . . . . . . . . . . . New AA history book on Rogers Burnham From: secondles . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/26/2011 12:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dec.26, 2011 Hi All: Happy New Year! My new book, a Biography about Bill's brother-in-law, Rogers Burnham...plus much data showing the major impact which Vermont had on AA development, was released on the Internet early Christmas eve. (Enter " www.Xlibris.com ", then, "Rogers Burnham" ) and take a look. In it are many graphics of documents collected in Vermont during my research as well as many quotes from documents now housed in the archives at Stepping Stones. (More about those archives later). The book is a personal story because I was born and raised in the same rural location as Bill in southern Vermont, and, "Rog" lived with my family for over four years during the early 1930's. I became aware of AA history in 1994 when I first saw a picture of the famous Harley-with-side-car in PASS IT ON. My brother and I had played with that motorcycle a few times as children while it was stored in the Carriage House on the Burnham estate in Manchester when we lived there with Rog in 1933. During research I also learned that my mother was a high-school classmate of Bill there in Manchester when they were growing up, and I learned of the natural "Vermont bond" between Dr. Bob and Bill. Overall, I hope that several things discussed may bring other historians to take a fresh look at the traditional concept of how the Oxford Group (OG) impacted Bill and his writing the Big Book. (1) There is a chapter about the relationship of the Burnham's religion, Swedenborgian, to the AA 12-Steps. Bill was constantly "infected" by those tenants beginning with the youthful days he spent with Rog and his siblings during summers at Emerald Lake near East Dorset...and all through his years married with Lois. (2) Bill's "Vermont characteristics" were ingrained upon him long before the "four absolutes" of OG were even introduced by Ebby in 1934-5. (3) Bill's chance meeting with "Dr. Bob" was obviously prophetic since they both had a Vermont heritage...including the meaning of a firm handshake. (4) Over thirteen people with Vermont roots were influential in Bill's early life, and his concepts of AA. They are discussed. I trust that some historians might disagree or take umbrage with new ideas about what made Bill "tick". I will welcome feedback using my personal e-mail elsietwo@msn.com , and/or share color copies of documents I have if you ask specifically. Now a word about the archives at Stepping Stones. I have had the special privilege of two visits there doing research, 2007 and 2009. It was exciting to hold in my hands one, of the two, original copies of Bill's printed Announcement of his high school graduation from Burr and Burton Seminary. I had never seen or heard of proof that he had ever formally done so following his depression and failing classes soon after Bertha Bamford's death. Another thrill was holding in my hands one of Lois' miniature old diaries which, in their brown and fragile pages, told of she and Rog going to basketball games together as kids in 1905. As mentioned above, Stepping Stones Foundation (SSF) is in the process of preserving, in digital format, "all" of the archives which are in their possession. This a goldmine of data never yet analyzed. The purpose is not only to protect them from misuse or loss, but to make this history available to historians. Their trustees are currently developing guidelines as to how access will occur. The funds to complete the task, which is already underway for a portion of the archives, is about halfway accomplished. The goal is $175,000. Currently, it is expensive to travel to Katonah, NY (after getting special, written, permission to view selected data). It would be a great idea...perhaps even with a selfish motive for studying such data ... if each member of AAHL would send SSF a donation of a portion of their potential cost for such a trip, to assist in completing the task. Annah Perch, Executive Director, Stepping Stones Foundation, 62 Oak Road, Katonah, NY, 10536. Les Cole Colorado Spings, CO IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8065. . . . . . . . . . . . New Prohibition DVD From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/26/2011 7:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I just watched a new (2011) 3-DVD PBS documentary called Prohibition (A Film by Ken Burns & Lynn Novick). Towards the end there is a short piece on AA & towards the beginning there is a short piece on the Washingtonians. I found the documentary to be very interesting. Peace. Just Love, Barefoot Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8066. . . . . . . . . . . . Correlation between Christmas and AA From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/25/2011 5:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I hope all of us are having a sober and joyous Christmas Day. I have been considering the historical correlation of this celebration with the birth of Alcoholics Anonymous. I think of poor Ebby Thacher who seemed destined to spend his next six months in Vermont's Brattleboro Asylum for his third drunken scrape with the law. But happily, comes along three influential Oxford Group members who accompanied Ebby in court and got him off the hook. These were, Cebra Graves, a Broadway actor and State Senator; Shep Cornell, an investor and politician; and millionaire, Rowland Hazard. As most of you know, Ebby dried up, went to NY and carried his new-found Oxford Group message to Bill Wilson, thus creating a vital founding moment for the soon-to-come program of Alcoholics Anonymous the following year. Well, what does that have to do with today's Christmas celebration? Please consider this: The Oxford Group's title up till 1928 had been "First Century Christian Fellowship;" they attempted to emulate the life styles of the early Christians with their tenets (p. xvi) and the Four Absolutes. This was the 'kitchen table' message that Ebby carried to Bill (p. 9). In other words, if not for the birth of Christianity there would have been no Oxford Group and no message for Ebby to carry to Bill Wilson: AA would never have had a beginning. Again, most of our 12 Steps were derived from the OG principles. Please compare the six OG tenets (p. xi) with the six-step program mentioned on page 263. Of course, the six Steps became Twelve Steps when the Big Book was published. This historical pathology is so obvious that no debate seems necessary. One last point, the fact that without financial help from the Rockefeller Foundation there would have been no Big Book. At their first dinner, in 1938, Rockefeller associate, Albert Scott declared, "Why this is first-century Christianity!" then he asked, "What can we do to help?"* Once again, one can readily appreciate the correlation between this special day and the birth of Alcoholics Anonymous - that this writing is not about theology, but simply a correlation of well-known historical facts. Again, Merry Christmas. Bob S. ========================== *Pass It On, page 184 ========================== Bob Stonebraker 212 SW 18th Street Richmond, IN 47374 (765) 935-0130 Our 4D website: www.4dgroups.org IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8067. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back From: jayaa82@earthlink.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/25/2011 10:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In working on my manuscript on the relationship between AA and Rockefeller (still trying to get it published) I did extensive research at the Rockefeller archives and found no evidence that he ever said that. Nor did I find anything at GSO archives. Doesn't mean he didn't, but I doubt it. The terms on that loan for the repurchase of the Big Book stock were we were credited with $2 towards the balance for every $1 paid. So, in effect, we paid back 50% of the money. The initial $5,000 was never repaid, and since it was a gift, it was never expected to be. Rockefeller gave gifts to AA totaling $8,000; The $2,000 loan to Works Stock buyback (the 50% mentioned above); $2,000 gift to Works buyback; and $3,950 to the AA Seamen. In addition, Nelson and John D III gave $1,000 towards Works. The Rockefeller dinner guests contributed $3,455 from the letters JDR, Jr. sent out after the dinner. All of the thank you letters are in the Rockefeller archives. Rockefeller associates (mainly Chipman) raised $4,050 towards works and Chipman raised $3,200 for the AA Seamen. I have letters, receipts, deposits, etc. to back all of the above numbers. It is estimated, (can't prove it) that the dinner list contributed another $9,000. Jay Moore ----- Original Message ----- From: John French Sent: 12/21/2011 Subject: Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back I would love to verify the claim that John D. Rockefeller, Jr. once said that of all the donations he had given to charity, AA was the only one that paid him back in full. John French IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8068. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Merton M''s Black Sheep manuscript From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/27/2011 12:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone on this forum know Merton's whereabouts or contact information? In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst -----Original Message----- From: dave Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 Subject: Merton M's Black Sheep manuscript Whatever happened to Merton M.'s Black Sheep manuscript? Thanks to all, Dave IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8069. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Correlation between Christmas and AA From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/27/2011 8:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Oxford Group didn't have six tenets. Page xvi of Big Book only mentions five features of the OG. The Rockefeller money didn't go towards publishing of the Big Book. Mr. Rockefeller bought 400 copies of the $3.50 book for $1.00 apiece, and sent them to the people invited to the Feb. 1940 dinner at the Union Club. John Lee Pittsburgh IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8070. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: New AA history book on Rogers Burnham From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/27/2011 11:05:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII LES'S BOOK: Good morning all. I'm so happy that Les's book has finally come out! I can't wait for my copy to arrive. By the way, it's also available at amazon.com STEPPING STONES DIGITAL ARCHIVES: What sorts of things will be made available, under what qualifications, and to whom? About Stepping Stones, can anyone associated with the Foundation explain SPECIFICALLY what it will mean that "their digital archive will be available to historians"? In other words, SPECIFICALLY, what will "available" look like & how will they be defining "historians"? Will someone need a book deal first in order to get access or will any AA member interested in AA history be able to have access? Will only some of the archive be available to some and all of the archive be available to others depending on their "historian status" or what they plan on doing with it? Will someone be able to get a copy of the whole digital archive to look at on their home computer or will they only have access to it at Stepping Stones or will it only be available online for a fee after some sort of background approval? etc., etc. Thanks. Just Love, Barefoot Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8071. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: New Prohibition DVD From: Jim F. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/27/2011 12:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I saw the documentary on PBS when it first aired. I liked it so much I bought the DVD. Jim F. ________________________________ From: Bill Lash Sent: Monday, December 26, 2011 Subject: New Prohibition DVD I just watched a new (2011) 3-DVD PBS documentary called Prohibition (A Film by Ken Burns & Lynn Novick). Towards the end there is a short piece on AA & towards the beginning there is a short piece on the Washingtonians. I found the documentary to be very interesting. Peace. Just Love, Barefoot Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8072. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: New AA history book on Rogers Burnham From: John Moore . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/27/2011 6:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you Les, I ordered mine last night. A more direct link to the book is http://bookstore.xlibris.com/Products/SKU-0103672049/Rogers-Burnham-The-Orig inal\ -Man-Behind-Bill-W.aspx [37] and there is choice of soft cover, hard cover and e book at that site. We sober Vermonters have always known that our tiny state played a starring role in the formation of Alcoholics Anonymous. I am looking forward to receiving the book. John M Burlington, Vermont US 7 Dec 1971 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8073. . . . . . . . . . . . What was Dr. Bob''s contribution to the Twelve Concepts. From: grandpopmark . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2011 8:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Good Morning all, While reading the Twelve Concepts again, we came across an interesting statement. In the essay on Concept 1, first page third paragraph, reads, in part, "Ten years earlier - in 1938 - helped by dedicated friends, Dr. Bob and I had commenced work upon a world service structure." Just what was Dr. Bob's contribution to the work on our world service structure? Did he just read and comment upon Bill's work? Did he write portions of the work now known as our Twelve Concepts? We do know that the booklet entitled "Twelve Concepts for World Service" is "by Bill W.", but what did Bill mean with the above quote? Just Interested, Mark E., Lebanon, Ohio - - - - FROM THE MODERATOR G.C. Let's think carefully about the relevant dates before we start commenting on this: Dr. Bob died on November 16, 1950 Bill W. died on January 24, 1971 April 1962: See http://silkworth.net/aa/12concepts.html Twelve Concepts for World Service (Short Form) As adopted by the 12th annual General Service Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous on April 26, 1962 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8074. . . . . . . . . . . . Oxford Group Six (6) Tenets or Was it Five (5) From: Mike Portz . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2011 4:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Mike Portz, Cliff, and Robert Stonebraker - - - - Mike Portz (mportz2000 at yahoo.com) Can someone clear up the confusion on whether their were five (5) Oxford Group Tenets or were their actually Six (6). I have read the six (6) tenets stated on the Internet (also what the six actually said), and I have also read the information by Mr. Lee quoted from the "Big Book." If some one does have the correct answer, could you please be so kind as to post what the correct answer is as well as what they actually stated on this website. Also, if someone has the answer to how this confusion/discrepancy/controversy evolved, please share it on this site. Thanks in advance for your time, help and efforts!!!! Kind regards in fellowship, Mike Portzmportz2000@yahoo.comCell (702) 501-9551 - - - - From: Cliff CBBB164@AOL.COM (CBBB164 at AOL.COM) The "Six Precepts of the Alcoholic Squad of the Oxford Group" are displayed on pg 263 of the Fourth Edition of the Book, "Alcoholics Anonymous." cliff - - - - From: "Robert Stonebraker" (rstonebraker212 at comcast.net) The Oxford Group had many different tenets, but Bill Wilson accepted only six of these. They are revealed on page xvi: 1. Need for moral inventory Step 4 2. Confession of personality defects Step 1 & 5 3. Restitution to those harmed Steps 8 & 9 4. Helpfulness to others Step 12 5. Necessity of belief in God Steps 2, 3 & 11 6. Dependence upon God Steps 6, 7, 10 & 11 Also, it would seem that the spirit of the Four Absolutes - honesty, unselfishness, love and purity - is embedded throughout all of our Steps. Bob S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8075. . . . . . . . . . . . The early informal AA six steps and the Oxford Group From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2011 3:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII SEVERAL EARLY SIX-STEP VERSIONS OF THE A.A. STEPS http://hindsfoot.org/steps6.html - - - - It is a big mistake to speak of the Oxford Group as having had "Six Steps," or in fact, any officially codified list of "steps" that you were supposed to work through in the later AA fashion. Let's please start giving the early AA people more credit for being creative, innovative, and real masters of the spiritual life. What people should look at instead are THE OXFORD GROUP FIVE C's. This list originally arose in the American and British Protestant foreign missionary movement. They discovered that preaching huge revivals did not work in countries like India, China, Iraq, etc., and that if you were going to convert any souls to Jesus Christ in those regions, it was going to have to be by means of personal one-on-one evangelism. Frank Buchman had already been trained and was experienced in Protestant foreign missionary work when he came to England, and discovered that the Five C's also worked on students at Cambridge and Oxford Universities. Then a number of other prominent people joined his group -- newspaper editors, generals, bishops, wealthy businessmen, and so on -- first in the U.K. and then in the U.S. Insofar as the AA twelve steps are partially derived from Oxford Group beliefs (the word "tenet" means belief), they were certainly heavily influenced in certain important ways by the 5 C's. That's the place to begin if you want to talk about what AA got from the Oxford Group. If you want lists to cite and memorize, quit talking about "the Oxford Group's Six Steps" (these are imaginary and never existed) and talk instead about "the Oxford Group's 5 C's." The 5 C's were totally real, and very important to understanding the basic way the Oxford Group really worked. - - - - THE FIVE C's OF CHRISTIAN MISSIONARY WORK, by which we could bring genuine life-changing to ourselves and to other people: 1. Confidence: You could not do anything to bring someone else to Jesus Christ until the other person had confidence in you. Usually that required me (the missionary) admitting to the person whom I wished to convert, what my own most secret and humiliating sins had been. 2. Confession: If we held back from turning our lives completely over to Jesus Christ, it usually meant that we had some secret sin which we had never admitted to anyone (having affairs if you were married, homosexuality, being filled with resentment against the trustees of the boys' home we had once worked for, or whatever). We had to confess that secret sin to some other human being, and MAKE RESTITUTION if appropriate. Making restitution could mean writing a letter of apology to the people against whom we held our resentment, returning money we had taken from someone else under questionable circumstances, going back and telling the truth if we had lied about someone, or whatever else. 3. Conviction: But I could not undergo a real conversion experience until I felt truly convicted of sin. I had to admit that because I had committed this particular sin, I was worthy only of the flames of eternal hellfire, and I had to fall into a state of total terror, blind fear, complete self-loathing, and absolute despair. I had to beat myself up over and over with thoughts of what a bad person I was, and how terrible that thing was that I had done. 4. Conversion: I then had to turn to Jesus Christ and admit to him -- genuinely meaning it -- that I was a hopeless sinner, thinking about the specific one or two or three major sins I had committed, and then beg Jesus for forgiveness and mercy. 5. Continuance: I then had to continue in this state of repentance over my sins by daily religious exercises (prayer, quiet time, Bible reading) or whatever else was necessary, and Jesus would give me the daily grace to avoid committing those particular sins again. - - - - PLEASE NOTE that the Oxford Group did not teach a detailed inventory of all our character flaws (in the way that AA did in its Fourth Step). They focused only on asking Jesus for forgiveness for one or two or three specific sins that I had committed. Please note that even the Big Book example of a Fourth Step is talking only about three or four very specific sins that the man had fallen into. I strongly suspect, but cannot prove, that the AA practice of making multi-paged fourth step inventories did not become common until the flood of Roman Catholics began coming into the program in 1939 and 1940. St. Ignatius Loyola, very early in his spiritual development, made a detailed general moral inventory of himself. He didn't talk about that in his Spiritual Exercises, but every Catholic who had been deeply trained in those (Sister Ignatia, Father Ed Dowling, etc.) would have known that St. Ignatius had to do his general moral inventory first, before he could start practicing a kind of daily prayer that was more like the AA tenth and eleventh steps. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8076. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: New AA history book on Rogers Burnham From: A.D. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2011 3:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII > We sober Vermonters have always known that our tiny state > played a starring role in the formation of Alcoholics > Anonymous... > John M > Burlington, Vermont US - - - - Heavens to Betsy, the book could have easily been titled: The Way Out: The Vermont Movement ;-) Deloab IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8077. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Mel B., Glenn Chesnut, Wyatt Mullinax - 3rd Trad. - in FtWayne From: Dolores . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/21/2011 10:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Glenn C., Dolores, Tom Hickcox, Roy Levin, John French, and Bryan S. Reid - - - - From Glenn C. Ray M. is going to contact the Allen County Library in Fort Wayne and see if their audio-visual people can record the talks. I will post more information when I know more. Symposium flyer: http://hindsfoot.org/zz-ftwayne-symposium.pdf Ft. Wayne map w/ library: http://hindsfoot.org/zz-ftwayne-map.pdf - - - - From: "Dolores" Date: Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:41 am Hi, would like to join ´the tapes request as Munich,Germany is far away too. take care, Dolores - - - - From: Tom Hickcox Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:51 pm I would buy a recording, too. T - - - - From: Roy Levin Date: Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:38 am Yeah, Glenn, I'd love to be there. I saw another responder ask if you're taping it and making recordings available. I'd like to ditto that request. Regards Roy L. - - - - From: "John French" Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 Ditto on the taping -- Costa Rica is even further than Arizona from the hoosier state! John French _______________________________________________ Original Message from: Bryan S. Reid Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 7:09 PM Any chance that someone could tape this and share it? I'd love to hear this, but Ft. Wayne is a bit of a hike from Sierra Vista, Arizona. Peace and serenity, Bryan IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8078. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill''s Story (Chapter Two) two very early pre-Manuscript writings. From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2011 8:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill Wilson authored the very first draft of Bill's Story in March or April of 1938. He decided to make it Chapter Two. Apparently, soon thereafter, a certain Joe Worth, the founder and editor of New York Magazine, rewrote Bill's Story and maintained it as Chapter Two. Dr. Bob's daughter, Sue Smith Windows, lamented that improvement was necessary. If you read it you can readily see why! Of course, Bills' Story became Chapter One when the Manuscript was written in December of 1938. I have incomplete copies of both these printed versions, but for the sake of simplicity, I have included only Page one of each on the site below. The first draft is 22 pages (incomplete) The second (edited) draft is only 13 pages; it may or may not been considered as completed at that time. To view these first pages please go to: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Indyfourthdimension/files/ Select: Bill's Story 2 Versions (Excerpts from the first two drafts of Bill's Story) This is on my Yahoo website, so it may be necessary to sign in. Bob S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8079. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back From: hdmozart . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2011 8:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jimmy Burwell (Speaking in Texas 4-17-1950) http://aa-meetings.com/audio/speakers/ind.php?id=89 [53:23] Incidentally we are the only group that the Rockefellers have ever worked with that paid off every cent that we ever borrowed from - we paid that $3,600 back Hope this helps, Larry Holbrook Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com (410) 802-3099 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8080. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back From: Jayaa82@earthlink.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2011 11:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Interesting but not true. -----Original Message----- From: "hdmozart" Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 13:06:44 Subject: Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back Jimmy Burwell (Speaking in Texas 4-17-1950) http://aa-meetings.com/audio/speakers/ind.php?id=89 [53:23] Incidentally we are the only group that the Rockefellers have ever worked with that paid off every cent that we ever borrowed from - we paid that $3,600 back Hope this helps, Larry Holbrook IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8081. . . . . . . . . . . . ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill''s Story From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2011 1:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To view the entire first two drafts of Bill's Story, please open the site below. A recent post included only the first pages of these interesting pre-manuscript drafts. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Indyfourthdimension/files/ Open the folder: Bill's Story 2 drafts The first draft is many pages, yet not complete, however the second draft is complete. It was edited by the editor of NY Magazine, Joe Worth. This is on my Yahoo website, so it may be necessary to sign in. Bob S. 1: http://www.aabibliography.com/cecil_rose_when_man_listens_oxford_group_pamphlet.html 2: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208212/Unseen-60-years-Mail-proudly-present-Agatha-Christies-lost-masterpiece-The-Capture-Cerberus.html 3: http://books.google.com/books?id=uloAmt3O63MC&lpg=PA127&ots=fJ5zziCVll&dq=agatha%20christie%20oxford%20group&pg=PA115#v=onepage&q&f=false 4: http://www.alcoholicsanonymous.ie/opencontent/default.asp?itemid=13&section=About+Us 5: http://www.examiner.com/addiction-in-baltimore/baltimore-born-reverend-dr-sam-shoemaker-has-ties-to-local-treatment-center-and-aa-beginnings 6: http://uir.unisa.ac.za/bitstream/handle/10500/2026/02chapter2.pdf;jsessionid=D02E1DD9FBEF011F8703EC080C32656D?sequence=2 7: http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Warning_Non_AA_Groups_Infiltrating_AA.pdf 8: http://www.lohud.com/article/20110314/NEWS02/103140343/Bedford-archives-AA-co-fo%5Cunder-preserved?odyssey=nav 9: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=chesnut+god+and+spirituality&x=13&y=15 10: http://www.amazon.com/God-Spirituality-Philosophical-Essays-ebook/dp/B0046ZRN82/ref=sr_1_cc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300217940&sr=1-1-catcorr 11: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=chuck+c+new+pair+of+glasses&aq=f 12: http://luginbuelfuneralhome.frontrunnerpro.com/runtime/3060/runtime.php?SiteId=3060&NavigatorId=54126&viewOpt=dpaneOnly&ItemId=723627&op=tributeMemorialCandles 13: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ndI9AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=symbolic+life&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false 14: http://myloc.gov/Exhibitions/redbook/redbookandbeyond/ExhibitObjects/SymbolicLife.aspx 15: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/08/fashion/08anon.html?_r=4&pagewanted=1&sq=anonymous&st=cse&scp=6 16: http://community.nytimes.com/comments/www.nytimes.com/2011/05/08/fashion/08anon.html 17: http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/cherry-picking-the-history-of-the-alcoholism-movement-1/. 18: http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/latimes/obituary.aspx?page=lifestory&pid=151166418 19: http://www.addictioninfo.org/articles/1048/1/Alcoholics-Anonymous-and-the-Disease-Concept-of-Alcoholism/Page1.html 20: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1529477/pdf/amjphnation00993-0093b.pdf 21: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/08/betty-ford-dies-former-dead_n_893664.html 22: http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.%24b644206;page=root;view=image;size=100;seq=7;num=i 23: http://www.williamwhitepapers.com/pr/2011%20Narcotics%20Anonymous%20History%20and%20Culture.pdf 24: http://www.blackburn.edu/currentstudents/CounselingServicesDocuments/EPProblemsotherthanAlcohol.html 25: http://www.silkworth.net/pdfhistory/Little-Rock-Plan-Gives-Prospects-Sep-1947.pdf 26: http://www-tc.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/static/media/transcripts/2011-05-11/407_aaletter.pdf 27: http://www.nytimes.com/1999/04/04/us/felicia-g-magruder-ex-countess-dies-at-93.html 28: http://www.ohio.com/news/movie-crew-shoots-scenes-at-stan-hywet-for-a-a-film-1.200159 29: http://aatorontoagnostics.org/2011/09/27/a-history-of-agnostic-groups-in-aa/#comment-64 30: http://www.facesandvoicesofrecovery.org/pdf/White/Confession_of_an_AA_History_Buff.pdf 31: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Indyfourthdimension/files/1944%20Letter%20From%20Clarence%20Snyder.pdf 32: http://www.williamwhitepapers.com/pr/2011-09-13%20NA%20Chronology%20-%20Volume%20One.pdf 33: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/msearch?date=any&DM=------------&DD=----&DY=----&DM2=------------&DD2=----&DY2=----&AM=contains&AT=&SM=contains&ST=wikipedia&MM=contains&MT=&charset=UTF-8 34: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/msearch?date=any&DM=------------&DD=----&DY=----&DM2=------------&DD2=----&DY2=----&AM=contains&AT=&SM=contains&ST=&MM=contains&MT=wikipedia&charset=UTF-8 35: http://www.rochester-ny-aa.org/pdf_files/archives%20pdf%20files/Dr%20G.Kirby%20Collier.pdf 36: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1870440/pdf/bullnyacadmed00522-0008.pdf 37: http://bookstore.xlibris.com/Products/SKU-0103672049/Rogers-Burnham-The-Original-Man-Behind-Bill-W.aspx AA History Lovers 2011 — moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. 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