AA History Lovers 2011 Messages 7090-8081 moderated by Nancy Olson September 18, 1929 – March 25, 2005 Glenn F. Chesnut June 28, 1939 – IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7090. . . . . . . . . . . . Document called: Why Do The Steps Work? From: ckbudnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/3/2011 1:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is anyone familiar with the origin of a document titled "Why Do The Steps Work?" The document includes: How did the 12 step program originate? Dr. William D. Silkworth Dr. Carl Jung Frank Buchman Ebby's Meeting With Bill Bill's Last Treatment: Spiritual Experience and Williams James Bill's Early Recovery And Meeting With Dr. Bob Refinement Of The Program Of Action What Are The Spiritual Principles Of The 12 Steps? Recapping The Problem And The Solution How Can A 12 Step Program Work For A Non-Religious Person? Changing Our Ideas, Attitudes And Behavior Thanks, Chris B. Raleigh, NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7091. . . . . . . . . . . . Out of print pamphlets From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/31/2010 5:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am looking at a 11/63 aaws catalog of literature and wanted to know if anyone has pictures of P-13 Fortune Reprint P-14 Good Housekeeping Reprint P-26 Corrections Officials Evaluate A.A. P-27 Hospital Administratore Evaluate A. A. P-28 Patterns of A. A. Cooperation with Hospitals P-29 Cooperation but Not affiliation P-30 The Fellowship of A. A. P-31 A. A. - Helpful Ally in Coping with Alcoholism P-32 Basic Fact File P-33 Background Editorial Material P-34 Background Radio-TV Material P-35 Public Information Kit Contact me at: justjohn1431946@yahoo.com (justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com) Thank you and best to all in the New Year 2011. John Wikelius Enterprise, Alabama IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7092. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA in Pakistan From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/29/2010 5:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Article in the Guardian: "Alcoholism booms in 'dry' Pakistan" http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/27/alcoholism-boom-pakistan?INTCMP= SRCH Tommy IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7093. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA in Pakistan From: Arun Shelar . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/31/2010 7:24:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Please visit following site or contact on tel no. so that you can get the information locally. For A A in Pakistan http://www.aapakistan.yolasite.com Contact number is 0303-2899006 and contact person is Bilal L. with love, Arun IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7094. . . . . . . . . . . . AA groups started without contact with people already in AA? From: rajiv . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2010 4:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have read much of the history of how the AA groups started in other cities after the Big Book was published. And it seems that the members who started AA in other cities had first been helped through the Steps by one of 100 founding members or by some alcoholic whom they had helped. I would like to know if there is any record of alcoholics, who had recovered by merely following the directions from the Big Book, without any contact with recovered alcoholics from other cities, starting AA in their cities. Thanks. Rajiv IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7095. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Stories carried over from 1st to 2nd edition of Big Book From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2010 11:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Many changes in Fitz M's story "Our Southern Friend" I hesitate to contradict Jared - he is a true and reliable wellspring of information both important and arcane and perhaps the most scrupulous researcher within our fold - but there were some extensive edits done to Fitz M's story "Our Southern Friend" when it was reprinted in the second edition (and then preserved in the third and fourth editions). For instance, the first three paragraphs that appear in this story in the first edition have been deleted, along with other deletions and additions throughout. During a recent visit to the Stepping Stones archive we were able to see even earlier versions of this story that are preserved there, containing some interesting variations from the one published in the first edition. Old Bill --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "J. Lobdell" wrote: > > And btw the one (other than Bob's and Bill's) retained unedited was Fitz M., "Our Southern Friend" -- in all four editions. Arch T's "The Man Who Mastered Fear" (edited and retitled) is the only other 1st edition story still in the 4th edition. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7096. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Are there any Wikipedia editors here who know about the Washingtonians? From: khemex@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2010 7:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is a masterful history of the Washingtonian movement by Milton Maxwell (past Chairman of the Alcoholic Foundation). It's about 80 pages as I recall, so it's probably too big to post to WIKI. That's the source that I use to find data on the movement pre 1935. Gerry Winkelman ___________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. Lobdell" Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 5:22:57 PM Subject: RE: Are there any Wikipedia editors here who know about the Washingtonians? The article is fundamentally inaccurate -- even the names of the six founders are partly inaccurate (taken from a non-authoritative 1878 secondary source). It doesn't need references; it needs a thorough rewrite. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7097. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Chuck C., A New Pair of Glasses From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/24/2010 9:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Charles Knapp, Alex H., planternva, aalogsdon, Mike F., and jhoffma6 - - - - From: Charles Knapp (cpknapp at yahoo.com) Hey Group, The 1st printing of "A New Pair of Glasses" came out in May 1984. I have a 2nd printing and it came out Sept 1984. Charles Anxon Chamberlain was born in Lawrencepost, Indiana, Aug 3, 1903. He married Elsa Winnifred Matthews in 1926 in LA (married 58 years). They had 2 boys: William H Chamberlain in 1927 and George Richard Chamberlain in 1934. Chuck C. died in Laguna Beach, California on Dec 14, 1984. His date of sobriety was January ?, 1946 (sober 38 years). So the book was out at least 7 months before Chuck died. In one of his talks, I have heard Clancy say that Chuck did know about this book, but cannot remember what Clancy said his reaction to it was. Will see if I can locate this tape and post some additional information. Hope this helps, Charles from Wisconsin - - - - From: Alex H (jewishbridge at gmail.com) According to the Forward in the book "A New Pair of Glasses" (in front of me at the moment) it says that Chuck C. and his wife Elma helped Lee T. to pick out and arrange the tapes from the Pala Mesa Retreat and turn them into book form. Exactly how much work that was I have no idea but what is implied is that Lee T. had Chuck and Elma's permission and the words were Chuck's. [I am a past member of the Ohio Street meetings and though I cannot say I knew Chuck, he saved my life by close proxy nevertheless. I believe that with all my heart.] Shabbat Shalom, Alex H. - - - - From: "planternva2000" (planternva2000 at yahoo.com) As to whether Chuck C. would have approved of "A New Pair of Glasses" being printed, we have this from page xiii: "This man, Chuck C., is the first human being I have ever met who truly has something I want. I want what he has. I once asked him which of the hundreds of tapes that have been recorded of his talks over the years best represented his thinking. he did not hesitate when he replied that the talks he gave at the Pala Mesa Retreat, a gathering of fellow alcoholic men in 1975, included just about all his thoughts on the program of alcoholics Anonymous and the Program of Life. "With the help of Chuck C. and his wife, Elsa, we have put these tapes into writing so that the countless number of people that Chuck has touched and will touch in the future may have a volume to pick up and gain comfort from." Jim S. - - - - From: Aalogsdon (aalogsdon at aol.com) Sorry ... my copy of the first printing is buried at the moment but I have a copy signed by Chuck C. From memory I believe he died in December 1984 some months after the book came out. Howard P. of Arizona also has a signed copy that I once owned. As to how it was written, see the book THE WHEEL AND I by John Crene for details. - - - - From GC the moderator: is this the book listed in Amazon as authored by John Crean, The Wheel and I: Driving Fleetwood Enterprises to the Top (Self-Published in Newport Beach, CA: Author's Limited Preview Edition, 2000)? Or is this a different book? http://www.amazon.com/Wheel-Crean-Driving-Fleetwood-Enterprises/dp/097009450 7 - - - - From: "azmikefitz" (azmikefitz at yahoo.com) John, The book A New Pair of Glasses was first published in a limited printing in May 1984 -- the second printing was September 1984. Chuck was still living and he died in December of that same year. He was aware of the book and it was done with his permission. The book was financed by his close friend John C. Chuck was asked prior to publication if he wanted anything changed and I've been told he said "If I said it - it can stay". So nothing was changed in the transcription. I know of five signed copies of the first limited printing but have never seen a signed copy of the second printing. Mike F - - - - From: "momaria33772" (jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com) According to the book, Chuck and Elsa were very helpful in putting the tapes of the 1975 retreat into written form. The kook was copyright by Chuck C., 1st published May 1984. Chuck passed on December 14, 1984. There is also a recording of the Memorial Service later in the month. _______________________________________________ Original message 7075 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7075 from John Moore (contact.johnmoore at gmail.com) Chuck C., A New Pair of Glasses Chuck C. did not write this or any other book, by the way. He never saw "A New Pair of Glasses" and I wonder sometimes if he would have approved of it being printed. The book is a transcript of sessions of an annual retreat at Palo Mesa California. I think Chuck went every year, or he put it on every year ... my recollection. I have the cassette tape copies of this retreat which was recorded in 1975. The book came out in 1984 after his death. My question is, was this a work in process while Chuck was still alive, and did he know of it? Maybe someone knows...? John M Burlington, Vermont 12-07-1971 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7098. . . . . . . . . . . . 1st edit - Fitz M - Our Southern Friend - compare to 2nd edit From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2011 12:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Compare this 1st edition to the 2nd edition that follows in the next post Our Southern Friend TWO rosy-cheeked children stand at the top of a long hill as the glow of the winter sunset lights up the snow covered country-side. "It's time to go home" says my sister. She is the eldest. After one more exhilarating trip on the sled, we plod homeward through the deep snow. The light from an oil lamp shines from an upstairs window of our home. We stamp the snow from our boots and rush in to the warmth of the coal stove which is supposed to heat upstairs as well. "Hello dearies," calls Mother from above, "get your wet things off." "Where's Father?" I ask, having gotten a whiff of sausage cooking through the kitchen door and thinking of supper. "He went down to the swamp," replies Mother. "He should be home soon." Father is an Episcopal minister and his work takes him over long drives on bad roads. His parishioners are limited in number, but his friends are many, for to him race, creed, or social position make no difference. It is not long before he drives up in the old buggy. Both he and old Maud are glad to get home. The drive was long and cold but he was thankful for the hot bricks which some thoughtful person had given him for his feet. Soon supper is on the table. Father says grace, p.226 ------------------------------------------ which delays my attack on the buckwheat cakes and sausage. What an appetite! A big setter lies asleep near the stove. He begins to make queer sounds and his feet twitch. What is he after in his dreams? More cakes and sausage. At last I am filled. Father goes to his study to write some letters. Mother plays the piano and we sing. Father finishes his letters and we all join in several exciting games of parchesi. Then Father is persuaded to read aloud some more of "The Rose and the Ring." Bed-time comes. I climb to my room in the attic. It is cold so there is no delay. I crawl under a pile of blankets and blow out the candle. The wind is rising and howls around the house. But I am safe and warm. I fall into a dreamless sleep. I am in church. Father is delivering his sermon. A wasp is crawling up the back of the lady in front of me. I wonder if it will reach her neck. Shucks! It has flown away. Ho, hum, maybe the watermelons are ripe in Mr. Jones patch. That's an idea! Benny will know, but Mr. Jones will not know what happened to some of them, if they are. At last! The message has been delivered. "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works-." I hunt for my nickel to drop in the plate so that mine will be seen. Father comes forward in the chancel of the church. "The peace of God which passes all understanding, keep your hearts and minds-." Hurray! Just a hymn and then church will be over until next week! p.227 ------------------------------------------ I am in another fellow's room at college. "Freshman," said he to me, "do you ever take a drink?" I hesitated. Father had never directly spoken to me about drinking and he never drank any, so far as I knew. Mother hated liquor and feared a drunken man. Her brother had been a drinker and had died in a state hospital for the insane. But his life was unmentionable, so far as I was concerned. I had never had a drink but I had seen enough merriment in the boys who were drinking to be interested. I would never be like the village drunkard at home. How a lot of people despised him! Just a weakling! "Well," said the older boy, "Do you?" "Once in a while," I lied. I could not let him think I was a sissy. He poured out two drinks. "Here's looking at you," said he. I gulped it down and choked. I didn't like it, but I would not say so. No, never! A mellow glow stole over me. Say! This wasn't so bad after all. In fact, it was darn good. Sure I'd have another. The glow increased. Other boys came in. My tongue loosened. Everyone laughed loudly. I was witty. I had no inferiorities. Why, I wasn't even ashamed of my skinny legs! This was the real thing! A haze filled the room. The electric light began to move. Then two bulbs appeared. The faces of the other boys grew dim. How sick I felt. I staggered to the bathroom-. Shouldn't have drunk so much or so fast. But I knew how to handle it now. I'd drink like a gentleman after this. And so I met John Barleycorn. The grand fellow p.228 ------------------------------------------ who at my call made me "a hale fellow, well met," who gave me such a fine voice, as we sang "Hail, hail, the gang's all here," and "Sweet Adeline," who gave me freedom from fear and feelings of inferiority. Good old John! He was my pal, all right. Final exams of my senior year and I may somehow graduate. I would never have tried, but Mother counts on it so. A case of measles saved me from being kicked out during my Sophomore year. Bells, bells, bells! Class, library, laboratory! Am I tired! But the end is in sight. My last exam and an easy one. I gaze at the board with its questions. Can't remember the answer to the first. I'll try the second. No soap there. Say this is getting serious! I don't seem to remember anything. I concentrate on one of the questions. I don't seem to be able to keep my mind on what I am doing. I get uneasy. If I don't get started soon, I won't have time to finish. No use. I can't think. Oh! An idea! I leave the room, which the honor system allows. I go to my room. I pour out half a tumbler of grain alcohol and fill it with ginger ale. Oh, boy! Now back to the exam. My pen moves rapidly. I know enough of the answers to get by. Good old John Barleycorn! He can certainly be depended on. What a wonderful power he has over the mind! He has given me my diploma! Underweight! How I hate that word. Three attempts to enlist in the service, and three failures because of being skinny. True, I have recently recovered from p.229 ------------------------------------------ pneumonia and have an alibi, but my friends are in the war, or going, and I am not. To hell with it all! I visit a friend who is awaiting orders. The atmosphere of "eat, drink, and be merry" prevails and I absorb it. I drink a lot every night. I can hold a lot now, more than the others. I am examined for the draft and pass the physical exam. What a dirty deal! Drafted! The shame of it. I am to go to camp on November 13th. The Armistice is signed on the 11th and the draft is called off. Never in the service! The war leaves me with a pair of blankets, a toilet kit, a sweater knit by my sister, and a still greater inferiority. It is ten o'clock of a Saturday night. I am working hard on the books of a subsidiary company of a large corporation. I have had experience in selling, collecting, and accounting, and am on my way up the ladder. Then the crack-up. Cotton struck the skids and collections went cold. A twenty three million dollar surplus wiped out. Offices closed up and workers discharged. I, and the books of my division have been transferred to the head office. I have no assistance and am working nights, Saturdays and Sundays. My salary has been cut. My wife and new baby are fortunately staying with relatives, What a life! I feel exhausted. The doctor has told me that if I don't give up inside work, I'll have tuberculosis. But what am I to do? I have a family to support and have no time to be looking for another job. p.230 ------------------------------------------ Oh, well. I reach for the bottle which I just got from George, the elevator boy. I am a traveling salesman. The day is over and business has been not so good. I'll go to bed. I wish I were home with the family and not in this dingy hotel. Well-well-look who's here! Good old Charlie! It's great to see him. How's the boy? A drink? You bet your life! We buy a gallon of "corn" because it is so cheap. Yet I am fairly steady when I go to bed. Morning comes. I feel horribly. A little drink will put me on my feet. But it takes others to keep me there. I see some prospects. I am too miserable to care if they give me an order or not. My breath would knock out a mule, I learn from a friend. Back at the hotel and more to drink. I come to early in the morning. My mind is fairly clear, but inwardly I am undergoing torture. My nerves are screaming in agony. I go to the drug store and it is not open. I wait. Minutes are interminable. Will the store never open? At last! I hurry in. The druggist fixes me up a bromide. I go back to the hotel and lie down. I wait. I am going crazy. The bromides have no effect. I get a doctor. He gives me a hypodermic. Blessed peace! And I blame this experience on the quality of the liquor. I am a real estate salesman. "What is the price of that house," I ask the head of the firm I work for. He names me a price. Then he says, "That is what the builders p.231 ------------------------------------------ are asking, but we will add on $500.00 and split it, if you can close the deal." The prospect signs the contract for the full amount. My boss buys the property and sells to the prospect. I get my commission and $250.00 extra and everything is Jake. But is it? Something is sour. So let's have a drink! I become a teacher in a boy's school. I am happy in my work. I like the boys and we have lots of fun, in class and out. An unhappy mother comes to me about her boy, for she knows I am fond of him. They expected him to get high marks and he has not the ability to do it. So he altered his report card through fear of his father. And his dishonesty has been discovered. Why are there so many foolish parents, and why is there so much unhappiness in these homes? The doctors bills are heavy and the bank account is low. My wife's parents come to our assistance. I am filled with hurt pride and self-pity. I seem to get no sympathy for my illness and have no appreciation of the love behind the gift. I call the boot-legger and fill up my charred keg. But I do not wait for the charred keg to work. I get drunk. My wife is extremely unhappy. Her father comes to sit with me. He never says an unkind word. He is a real friend but I do not appreciate him. We are staying with my wife's father. Her mother is in critical condition at a hospital. The wind is moaning in the pine trees. I cannot sleep. I must get myself p.232 ------------------------------------------ together. I sneak down stairs and get a bottle of whiskey from the cellaret. I pour drinks down my throat. My father-in-law appears. "Have a drink?" I ask. He makes no reply, and hardly seems to see me. His wife dies that night. Mother has been dying of cancer for a long time. She is near the end and now in a hospital. I have been drinking a lot, but never get drunk. Mother must never know. I see her about to go. I return to the hotel where I am staying and get gin from the bell-boy. I drink and go to bed; I take a few the next morning and go see my mother once more. I cannot stand it. I go back to the hotel and get more gin. I drink steadily. I come to at three in the morning. The indescribable torture has me again. I turn on the light. I must get out of the room or I shall jump out of the window. I walk miles. No use. I go to the hospital, where I have made friends with the night superintendent. She puts me to bed and gives me a hypodermic. Oh, wonderful peace! Mother and Father die the same year. What is life all about anyway? The world is crazy. Read the newspapers. Everything is a racket. Education is a racket. Medicine is a racket. Religion is a racket. How could there be a loving God who would allow so much suffering and sorrow? Bah! Don't talk to me about religion. For what were my children ever born? I wish I were dead! p.233 ------------------------------------------ I am at the hospital to see my wife. We have another child. But she is not glad to see me. I have been drinking while the baby was arriving. Her father stays with her. My parents estates are settled at last. I have some money. I'll try farming. It will be a good life. I'll farm on a large scale and make a good thing of it. But the deluge descends. Lack of judgment, bad management, a hurricane, and the depression create debts in ever-increasing number. But the stills are' operating throughout the country-side. It is a cold, bleak day in November. I have fought hard to stop drinking. Each battle has ended in defeat. I tell my wife I cannot stop drinking. She begs me to go to a hospital for alcoholics which has been recommended. I say I will go. She makes the arrangements, but I will not go. I'll do it all myself. This time I'm off of it for good. I'll just take a few beers now and then. It is the last day of the following October, a dark, rainy morning. I come to in a pile of hay in a barn. I look for liquor and can't find any. I wander to a stable and drink five bottles of beer. I must get some liquor. Suddenly I feel hopeless, unable to go on. I go home. My wife is in the living room. She had looked for me last evening after I left the car and wandered off into the night. She had looked for me this morning. She p.234 ------------------------------------------ has reached the end of her rope. There is no use trying any more, for there is nothing to try. "Don't say anything," I say to her. "I am going to do something." I am in the hospital for alcoholics. I am an alcoholic. The insane asylum lies ahead. Could I have myself locked up at home? One more foolish idea. I might go out West on a ranch where I couldn't get anything to drink. I might do that. Another foolish idea. I wish I were dead, as I have often wished before. I am too yellow to kill myself. But maybe-. The thought stays in my mind. Four alcoholics play bridge in a smoke-filled room. Anything to get my mind from myself. The game is over and the other three leave. I start to clean up the debris. One man comes back, closing the door behind him. He looks at me. "You think you are hopeless, don't you?" he asks. "I know it," I reply. "Well, you're not," says the man. "There are men on the streets of New York today who were worse than you, and they don't drink anymore." "What are you doing here then?" I ask. "I went out of here nine days ago saying that I was going to be honest, and I wasn't," he answers. A fanatic, I thought to myself, but I was polite. "What is it?" I enquire. Then he asks me if I believe in a power greater than myself, whether I call that power God, Allah, Con- p.235 ------------------------------------------ fucius, Prime Cause, Divine Mind, or any other name. I told him that I believe in electricity and other forces of nature, but as for a God, if there is one, He has never done anything for me. Then he asks me if I am willing to right all the wrongs I have ever done to anyone, no matter how wrong I thought they were. Am I willing to be honest with myself about myself and tell someone about myself, and am I willing to think of other people. and of their needs instead of myself; to get rid of the drink problem? "I'll do anything," I reply. "Then all of your troubles are over" says the man and leaves the room. The man is in bad mental shape certainly. I pick up a book and try to read, but cannot concentrate. I get in bed and turn out the light. But I cannot sleep. Suddenly a thought comes. Can all the worthwhile people I have known be wrong about God? Then I find myself thinking about myself, and a few things that I had wanted to forget. I begin to see I am not the person I had thought myself, that I had judged myself by comparing myself to others, and always to my own advantage. It is a shock. Then comes a thought that is like A Voice. "Who are you to say there is no God?" It rings in my head, I can't get rid of it. I get out of bed and go to the man's room. He is reading. "I must ask you a question," I say to the man. "How does prayer fit into this thing?" "Well," he answers, "you've probably tried praying like I have. When you've been in a jam you've said, 'God, please do this or that' and if it turned out your p.236 ------------------------------------------ way that was the last of it and if it didn't you've said 'There isn't any God' or 'He doesn't do anything for me'. Is that right?" "Yes" I reply. "That isn't the way" he continued. "The thing I do is to say 'God here I am and here are all my troubles. I've made a mess of things and can't do anything about it. You take me, and all my troubles, and do anything you want with me.' Does that answer your question?" "Yes, it does" I answer. I return to bed. It doesn't make sense. Suddenly I feel a wave of utter hopelessness sweep over me. I am in the bottom of hell. And there a tremendous hope is born. It might be true. I tumble out of bed onto my knees. I know not what I say. But slowly a great peace comes to me. I feel lifted up. I believe in God. I crawl back into bed and sleep like a child. Some men and women come to visit my friend of the night before. He invites me to meet them. They are a joyous crowd. I have never seen people that joyous before. We talk. I tell them of the Peace, and that I believe in God. I think of my wife. I must write her. One girl suggests that I phone her. What a wonderful idea. My wife hears my voice and knows I have found the answer to life. She comes to New York. I get out of the hospital and we visit some of these new-found friends. What a glorious time we have! I am home again. I have lost the fellowship. Those that understand me are far away. The same old prob- p.237 ------------------------------------------ lems and worries surround me. Members of my family annoy me. Nothing seems to be working out right. I am blue and unhappy. Maybe a drink-I put on my hat and dash off in the car. Get into the lives of other people, is one thing the fellows in New York had said. I go to see a man I had been asked to visit and tell him my story. I feel much better! I have forgotten about a drink. I am on a train, headed for a city. I have left my wife at home, sick, and I have been unkind to her in leaving. I am very unhappy. Maybe a few drinks when I get to the city will help. A great fear seizes me. I talk to the stranger in the seat with me. The fear and the insane idea is taken away. Things are not going so well at home. I am learning that I cannot have my own way as I used to. I blame my wife and children. Anger possesses me, anger such as I have never felt before. I will not stand for it. I pack my bag and leave. I stay with understanding friends. I see where I have been wrong in some respects. I do not feel angry any more. I return home and say I am sorry for my wrong. I am quiet again. But I have not seen yet that I should do some constructive acts of love without expecting any return. I shall learn this after some more explosions. I am blue again. I want to sell the place and move away. I want to get where I can find some alcoholics to p.238 ------------------------------------------ help, and where I can have some fellowship. A man calls me on the phone. Will I take a young fellow who has been drinking for two weeks to live with me? Soon I have others who are alcoholics and some who have other problems. I begin to play God. I feel that I can fix them all. I do not fix anyone, but I am getting part of a tremendous education and I have made some new friends. Nothing is right. Finances are in bad shape. I must find a way to make some money. The family seems to think of nothing but spending. People annoy me. I try to read. I try to pray. Gloom surrounds me. Why has God left me? I mope around the house. I will not go out and I will not enter into anything. What is the matter? I cannot understand. I will not be that way. I'll get drunk! It is a cold-blooded idea. It is premeditated. I fix up a little apartment over the garage with books and drinking water. I am going to town to get some liquor and food. I shall not drink until I get back to the apartment. Then I shall lock myself in and read. And as I read, I shall take little drinks at long intervals. I shall get myself "mellow" and stay that way. I get in the car and drive off. Halfway down the driveway a thought strikes me. I'll be honest anyway. I'll tell my wife what I am going to do. I back up to the door and go into the house. I call my wife into a room where we can talk privately. I tell her quietly what I intend to do. She says nothing. She does not get excited. She maintains a perfect calm. When I am through speaking, the whole idea has be- p.239 ------------------------------------------ come absurd. Not a trace of fear is in me. I laugh at the insanity of it. We talk of other things. Strength has come from weakness. I cannot see the cause of this temptation now. But I am to learn later that it began with the desire for my own material success becoming greater than the interest in the welfare of my fellow man. I learn more of that foundation stone of character, which is honesty. I learn that when we act upon the highest conception of honesty which is given us, our sense of honesty becomes more acute. I learn that honesty is truth, and the truth shall make us free! Sensuality, drunkenness, and worldliness satisfy a man for a time, but their power is a decreasing one. God produces harmony in those who receive His Spirit and follow Its dictates. Today as I become more harmonized within, I become more in tune with all of God's wonderful creation. The singing of the birds, the sighing of the wind, the patter of raindrops, the roll of thunder, the laughter of happy children, add to the symphony with which I am in tune. The heaving ocean, the driving rain, autumn leaves, the stars of heaven, the perfume of flowers, music, a smile, and a host of other things tell me of the glory of God. There are periods of darkness, but the stars are shining, no matter how black the night. There are disturbances, but I have learned that if I seek patience and open-mindedness, understanding will come. And with p.240 ------------------------------------------ it, direction by the Spirit of God. The dawn comes and with it more understanding, the peace that passes understanding, and the joy of living that is not disturbed by the wildness of circumstances or people around me. Fears, resentments, pride, worldly desires, worry, and self-pity no longer possess me. Ever-increasing are the number of true friends, ever-growing is the capacity for love, ever-widening is the horizon of understanding. And above all else comes a greater thankfulness to, and a greater love for Our Father in heaven. Our Southern Friend John Henry Fitzhugh (Fitz) M. Click here for more resources on Fitz M. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7099. . . . . . . . . . . . 2nd edit - Fitz M - Our Southern Friend - compare to 2nd edit From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2011 12:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Compare to the 1st edition previously posted; edited in this 2nd edition OUR SOUTHERN FRIEND Pioneer A.A., minister's son, and southern farmer, "Who am I," said he, "to say there is no God?" FATHER IS AN Episcopal minister and his work takes him over long drives on bad roads. His parishioners are limited in number, but his friends are many, for to him race, creed, or social position make no difference. It is not long before he drives up in the buggy. Both he and old Maud are glad to get home. The drive was long and cold but he was thankful for the hot bricks which some thoughtful person had given him for his feet. Soon supper is on the table. Father says grace, which delays my attack on the buckwheat cakes ans sausage. Bed-time comes. I climb to my room in the attic. It is cold so there is no delay. I craw under a pile of blankets and blow out the candle. The wind is rising and howls around the house. But I am safe and warm. I fall into a dreamless sleep. I am in church. Father is delivering his sermon. A wasp is crawling up the back of the lady in front of me. I wonder if it will reach her neck. Shucks! It has flown away. At last! The message has been delivered. "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works-." I hunt for my nickel to drop in the plate so that mine will be seen. I am in another fellow's room at colledge. "Fresh- 460 OUR SOUTHERN FRIEND man," said he to me, "do you ever take a drink?" I hesitated. Father had never directly spoken to me about drinking but he never drank any, so far as I knew. Mother hated liquor and feared a drunken man. Her brother had been a drinker and had died in a state hospital for the insane. But his life was unmentioned, so far as I was concerned. I had never had a drink, but I had seen enough merriment in the boys who were drinking to be interested. I would never be like the village drunkard at home. "Well," said the older boy, "Do you?" "Once in a while," I lied. I could not let him think I was a sissy. He poured out two drinks. "Here's looking at you," said he. I gulped it down and choked. I didn't like it, but I would not say so. A mellow glow stole over me. This wasn't so bad after all. Sure I'd have another. The glow increased. Other boys came in. My tongue loosened. Everyone laughed loudly. I was witty. I had no inferiorities. Why, I wasn't even ashamed of my skinny legs! This was the real thing! A haze filled the room. The electric light began to move. Then two bulbs appeared. The faces of the other boys grew dim. How sick I felt. I staggered to the bathroom. Shouldn't have drunk so much or so fast. But I knew how to handle it now. I'd drink like a gentleman after this. And so I met John Barleycorn. The grand fellow who at my call made me "a hale fellow, well met," who gave me such a fine voice, as we sang, "Hail, hail, the gang's all here," and "Sweet Adeline," who gave me freedom from fear and feelings of inferiority. Good old John! He was my pal, all right. 461 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS Final exams of my Senior year and I may somehow graduate. I would never have tried, but mother counts on it so. A case of measles saved me from being kicked out during my Sophomore year. But the end is in sight. My last exam and an easy one. I gaze at the board with its questions. Can't remember the answer to the first. I'll try the second. No soap there. I don't seem to remember anything. I concentrate on one of the questions. I don't seem to be able to keep my mind on what I am doing. I get uneasy. If I don't get started soon, I won't have time to finish. No use. I can't think. I leave the room, which the honor system allows. I go to my room. I pour out half a tumbler of grain alcohol and fill it with ginger ale. Now back to the exam. My pen moves rapidly. I know enough of the answers to get by. Good old John Barleycorn! He can certainly be depended on. What a wonderful power he has over the mind! He has given me my diploma! Underweight! How I hate that word. Three attempts to enlist in the service, and three failures because of being skinny. True, I have recently recovered from pneumonia and have an alibi, but my friends are in the war or going, and I am not. I visit a friend who is awaiting orders. The atmosphere of "eat, drink, and be merry" prevails and I absorb it. I drink a lot every night. I can hold a lot now, more than the others. I am examined for the draft and pass the physical test. I am to go to camp on November 13th. The Armistice is signed on the 11th and the draft is called off. Never in the service! The war leaves me with a pair of blankets, a toilet kit, a sweater knit by my sister, and a still greater inferiority. 462 OUR SOUTHERN FRIEND It is ten o'clock of a Saturday night. I am working hard on the books of a subsidiary company of a large corporation. I have had experience in selling, collecting, and accounting, and am on my way up the ladder. Then the crack-up. Cotton struck the skids and collections went cold. A twenty three million dollar surplus wiped out. Offices closed up and workers discharged. I, and the books of my division, have been transferred to the head office. I have no assistance and am working nights, Saturdays and Sundays. My salary has been cut. My wife and new baby are fortunately staying with relatives. I feel exhausted. The doctor has told me that if I don't give up inside work, I'll have tuberculosis. But what am I to do? I have a family to support and have no time to be looking for another job. I reach for the bottle which I just got from George, the elevator boy. I am a traveling salesman. The day is over and business has been not so good. I'll go to bed. I wish I were home with the family and not in this dingy hotel. Well-well-look who's here! Good old Charlie! It's great to see him. How's the boy? A drink? You bet your life! We buy a gallon of "corn" because it is so cheap. Yet I am fairly steady when I go to bed. Morning comes. I feel horribly. A little drink will put me on my feet. But it takes others to keep me there. I become a teacher in a boy's school. I am happy in my work. I like the boys and we have lots of fun, in class and out. 463 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS The doctors bills are heavy and the bank account is low. My wife's parents come to our assistance. I am filled with hurt pride and self-pity. I seem to get no sympathy for my illness and have no appreciation of the love behind the gift. I call the bootlegger and fill up my charred keg. But I do not wait for the charred keg to work. I get drunk. My wife is extremely unhappy. Her father comes to sit with me. He never says an unkind word. He is a real friend but I do not appreciate him. We are staying with my wife's father. Her mother is in critical condition at a hospital. I cannot sleep. I must get myself together. I sneak down stairs and get a bottle of whiskey from the cellaret. I pour drinks down my throat. My father-in-law appears. "Have a drink?" I ask. He makes no reply, and hardly seems to see me. His wife dies that night. Mother has been dying of cancer for a long time. She is near the end now and is in a hospital. I have been drinking a lot, but never get drunk. Mother must never know. I see her about to go. I return to the hotel where I am staying and get gin from the bellboy. I drink and go to bed; I take a few the next morning and go see my mother once more. I cannot stand it. I go back to the hotel and get more gin. I drink steadily. I come to at three in the morning. The indescribable torture has me again. I turn on the light. I must get out of the room or I shall jump out of the window. I walk miles. No use. I go to the hospital, where I have made friends with the night superintendent. She puts me to bed and gives me a hypodermic. I am at the hospital to see my wife. We have an- 464 OUR SOUTHERN FRIEND other child. But she is not glad to see me. I have been drinking while the baby was arriving. Her father stays with her. It is a cold, bleak day in November. I have fought hard to stop drinking. Each battle has ended in defeat. I tell my wife I cannot stop drinking. She begs me to go to a hospital for alcoholics which has been recommended. I say I will go. She makes the arrangements, but I will not go. I'll do it all myself. This time I'm off of it for good. I'll just take a few beers now and then. It is the last day of the following October, a dark, rainy morning. I come to in a pile of hay in a barn. I look for liquor and can't find any. I wander to a stable and drink five bottles of beer. I must get some liquor. Suddenly I feel hopeless, unable to go on. I go home. My wife is in the living room. She had looked for me last evening after I left the car and wandered off into the night. She had looked for me this morning. She has reached the end of her rope. There is no use trying any more, for there is nothing to try. "Don't say anything," I say to her. "I am going to do something." I am in the hospital for alcoholics. I am an alcoholic. The insane asylum lies ahead. Could I have myself locked up at home? One more foolish idea. I might go out West on a ranch where I couldn't get anything to drink. I might do that. Another foolish idea. I wish I were dead, as I have often wished before. I am too yellow to kill myself. Four alcoholics play bridge in a smoke-filled room. Anything to get my mind from myself. The game is over and the other three leave. I start to clean up the 465 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS debris. One man comes back, closing the door behind him. He looks at me. "You think you are hopeless, don't you?" he asks. "I know it," I reply. "Well, you're not," says the man. "There are men on the streets of New York today who were worse than you, and they don't drink anymore." "What are you doing here then?" I ask. "I went out of here nine days ago saying that I was going to be honest, and I wasn't," he answers. A fanatic, I thought to myself, but I was polite. "What is it?" I enquire. Then he asks me if I believe in a power greater than myself, whether I call that power God, Allah, Confucius, Prime Cause, Divine Mind, or any other name. I told him that I believe in electricity and other forces of nature, but as for a God, if there is one, He has never done anything for me. Then he asks me if I am willing to right all the wrongs I have ever done to anyone, no matter how wrong I thought the others were. Am I willing to be honest with myself about myself and tell someone about myself, and am I willing to think of other people, of their needs instead of myself, in order to get rid of the drink problem? "I'll do anything," I reply. "Then all of your troubles are over," says the man and leaves the room. The man is in bad mental shape certainly. I pick up a book and try to read, but cannot concentrate. I get in bed and turn out the light. But I cannot sleep. Suddenly a thought comes. Can all the worthwhile people I have known be wrong about God? Then I find myself thinking about myself, 466 OUR SOUTHERN FRIEND and a few things that I had wanted to forget. I begin to see I am not the person I had thought myself, that I had judged myself by comparing myself to others, and always to my own advantage. It is a shock. Then comes a thought that is like A Voice. "Who are you to say there is no God?" It rings in my head; I can't get rid of it. I get out of bed and go to the man's room. He is reading. "I must ask you a question," I say to the man. "How does prayer fit into this thing?" "Well," he answers, "you've probably tried praying like I have. When you've been in a jam you've said, 'God, please do this or that,' and if it turned out your way that was the last of it, and if it didn't you've said 'There isn't any God' or 'He doesn't do anything for me'. Is that right?" "Yes" I reply. "That isn't the way" he continued. "The thing I do is to say 'God here I am and here are all my troubles. I've made a mess of things and can't do anything about it. You take me, and all my troubles, and do anything you want with me.' Does that answer your question?" "Yes, it does" I answer. I return to bed. It doesn't make sense. Suddenly I feel a wave of utter hopelessness sweep over me. I am in the bottom of hell. And there a tremendous hope is born. It might be true. I tumble out of bed onto my knees. I know not what I say. But slowly a great peace comes to me. I believe in God. I crawl back into bed and sleep like a child. Some men and women come to visit my friend of the night before. He invites me to meet them. They are a joyous crowd. I have never seen people that joyous 467 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS before. We talk. I tell them of the peace, and that I believe in God. I think of my wife. I must write her. One girl suggests that I phone her. What a wonderful idea! My wife hears my voice and knows I have found the answer to life. She comes to New York. I get out of the hospital and we visit some of these new-found friends. I am home again. I have lost the fellowship. Those that understand me are far away. The same old problems and worries surround me. Members of my family annoy me. Nothing seems to be working out right. I am blue and unhappy. Maybe a drink—I put on my hat and dash off in the car. Get into the lives of other people, is one thing the fellows in New York had said. I go to see a man I had been asked to visit and tell him my story. I feel much better! I have forgotten about a drink. I am on a train, headed for a city. I have left my wife at home, sick, and I have been unkind to her in leaving. I am very unhappy. Maybe a few drinks when I get to the city will help. A great fear seizes me. I talk to the stranger in the seat beside me. The fear and the insane idea is taken away. Things are not going so well at home. I am learning that I cannot have my own way as I used to. I blame my wife and children. Anger possesses me, anger such as I have never felt before. I will not stand for it. I pack my bag and leave. I stay with understanding friends. I see where I have been wrong in some respects. I do not feel angry any more. I return home and say I am sorry for my wrong. I am quiet again. But I have 468 OUR SOUTHERN FRIEND not seen yet that I should do some constructive acts of love without expecting any return. I shall learn this after some more explosions. I am blue again. I want to sell the place and move away. I want to get where I can find some alcoholics to help, and where I can have some fellowship. A man calls me on the phone. Will I take a young fellow who has been drinking for two weeks to live with me? Soon I have others who are alcoholics and some who have other problems. I begin to play God. I feel that I can fix them all. I do not fix anyone, but I am getting part of a tremendous education and I have made some new friends. Nothing is right. Finances are in bad shape. I must find a way to make some money. The family seems to think of nothing but spending. People annoy me. I try to read. I try to pray. Gloom surrounds me. Why has God left me? I mope around the house. I will not go out and I will not enter into anything. What is the matter? I cannot understand. I will not be that way. I'll get drunk! It is a cold-blooded idea. It is premeditated. I fix up a little apartment over the garage with books and drinking water. I am going to town to get some liquor and food. I shall not drink until I get back to the apartment. Then I shall lock myself in and read. And as I read, I shall take little drinks at long intervals. I shall get myself "mellow" and stay that way. I get in the car and drive off. Halfway down the driveway a thought strikes me. I'll be honest anyway. I'll tell my wife what I am going to do. I back up to the door and go into the house. I call my wife into a 469 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS room where we can talk privately. I tell her quietly what I intend to do. She says nothing. She does not get excited. She maintains a perfect calm. When I am through speaking, the whole idea has become absurd. Not a trace of fear is in me. I laugh at the insanity of it. We talk of other things. Strength has come from weakness. I cannot see the cause of this temptation now. But I am to learn later that it began with my desire for material success becoming greater than my interest in the welfare of my fellow man. I learn more of that foundation stone of character, which is honesty. I learn that when we act upon the highest conception of honesty which is given us, our sense of honesty becomes more acute. I learn that honesty is truth, and the truth shall make us free! 470 "Our Southern Friend" John Henry Fitzhugh (Fitz) M. Click here for more resources on Fitz M._________________________ All of the Second editions stories, along with the 1st edition stories, are now available from silkworth.net in their entirety here, including all changes: http://www.silkworth.net/bbstories/2nd/stories.html ~Jim M. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7100. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Stories carried over from 1st to 2nd edition of Big Book From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2011 5:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I went back and looked again and Bill, unsurprisingly (given his ability and dedication), is right. Fitz's story did not change from 2 to 3 to 4, but it did change between 1 and 2 (oddly, I think, considering Fitz couldn't have approved the changes after 1943). I would be very interested indeed in the changes from the prepub text to Edition 1. __________________________________________ > From: schaberg@aol.com > Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 16:59:25 +0000 > Subject: Re: Stories carried over from 1st to 2nd edition of Big Book > > Many changes in Fitz M's story "Our Southern Friend" > > I hesitate to contradict Jared - he is a true and reliable wellspring of information both important and arcane and perhaps the most scrupulous researcher within our fold - but there were some extensive edits done to Fitz M's story "Our Southern Friend" when it was reprinted in the second edition (and then preserved in the third and fourth editions). > > For instance, the first three paragraphs that appear in this story in the first edition have been deleted, along with other deletions and additions throughout. > > During a recent visit to the Stepping Stones archive we were able to see even earlier versions of this story that are preserved there, containing some interesting variations from the one published in the first edition. > > Old Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7101. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA groups started without contact with people already in AA? From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2011 6:20:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII When you said no help from any other member, I assume you do not mean members working at the AA office in New York. Early on, almost any request for information was always followed up and contact was kept with new prospects. Bobbie B was one of those New York office workers that followed up with new members and occasionally sponsored loner members. One person does come to mind. Pat Cooper in Los Angeles got sober from reading the manuscript for the Big Book before it was published. His story was in the 1st Edition of the Big Book called "Lone Endeavor." After the book was published, Pat made a trip to New York, but arrived drunk. The story was pulled from the 2nd printing of the book. In a letter dated Feb 8, 1947, Kaye Miller, founder of AA in LA, wrote Bill W and said Pat was going to meetings and might just make it. Nothing else was ever heard of him and he has faded into AA history. Hope this helps Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7102. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Are there any Wikipedia editors here who know about the Washingtonians? From: Jay Lawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2011 6:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A WARNING ABOUT USING WIKIPEDIA uncritically as a source of information about Alcoholics Anonymous history, from Jay Lawyer: That is the trouble with using Wikipedia as any kind of source for information. Anybody can write anything they want and unless somebody comes along to change it, there it is for people to take as Gospel. We of Alcoholics Anonymous have enough inaccurate info already, don't need to add to it. Jay ___________________________________________ Original Message: A complaint about the Wikipedia article on the Washingtonians said: The article is fundamentally inaccurate -- even the names of the six founders are partly inaccurate (taken from a non-authoritative 1878 secondary source). It doesn't need references; it needs a thorough rewrite. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7103. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Is Grapevine literature "conference approved"? From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/25/2010 3:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Laurie Andrews, Edgar C, and Kimball Rowe - - - - From: Laurie Andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) Each issue of the Grapevine carries this caveat or disclaimer: "Conference Advisory Action 1986: 'Since each issue of the Grapevine cannot go through the Conference-approval process, the Conference recognizes the AA Grapevine as the international journal of Alcoholics Anonymous'." - - - - From: edgarc@aol.com (edgarc at aol.com) The statement was made: "Isn't the Grapevine generally considered to be conference approved via Concept 3?" By the lawyerly interpretation assumed in that statement, ANY literature used by a group (certainly an "element" of AA) could be considered conference-approved . . . Edgar C, Sarasota, Florida - - - - From: "Kimball Rowe" (roweke at msn.com) I would like to reverse the same question -- shoe on the other foot: If a group draws a line in the sand for which they will not cross, i.e. "we will not read from non-conference approved literature" then would not the Grapevine be "considered" out. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7104. . . . . . . . . . . . 1942 Letter by Bill W. From: doci333 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2011 3:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In "As Bill See's It" page 14, "Newcomer Problem" in a 1942 letter by Bill W. he writes: "You can't make a horse drink water if he still prefers beer or is too crazy to know what he does want. Set a pail of water beside him, tell him how good it is and why, and leave him alone. "If people really want to get drunk, there is, so far as I know, no way of stopping this - so leave them alone and let them get drunk. But don't exclude them from the water pail, either." 2. LETTER, 1942 Can anyone share the whole letter and any information concerning who the letter was directed to? Any further info. would be appreciated. I searched AA History Lovers and the Digital Archives don't go back that far. Thanks – Dave G., Illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7105. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 1942 Letter by Bill W. From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2011 4:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I had a similar query about the letter quoted on page 116 of As Bill Sees It. My first home group met at a Quaker meeting house and I picked up literature on display there and began attending Quaker meetings, eventually becoming a member. A few years ago I wrote to the archivist at GSO asking if there was a copy of the correspondence which resulted in the As Bill Sees It entry. It seems an AA member Robert C. wrote to Bill in 1950: "Dear Bill, I've been a member of AA for the past three years and am doing a fairly good job. In the meantime I've become interested in the Society of Friends (Quakers) and I seem to see a great kinship between the two movements. The Way of Life of both movements seems to fit so well into each other that I have become greatly interested in knowing how much Quakerism affected not only the foundation of AA but also what part, if any, it has played to date." Bill's reply opens with the two paragraphs quoted in Ad Bill Sees It. He then goes on: "Though the structure of our AA society was designed only by experience and what grace God may have given us, I must confess that in this aspect we do bear a strong resemblance to the Quakers. We, too, speak of a group conscience. Our leadership is rotating. We have no paid preachers and once the early members erected the basic principles, the authority seems to flow up through the mass instead of down from the top. When I wrote the Traditions, I can assure you that I did not create this state of affairs, I merely reflected what had already appeared out of the groups." I believe Lois Wilson attended a Quaker school as a child, and that after Bill died there was a Quaker-style unprogrammed meeting for worship at Stepping Stones. I was intrigued to know how Bill knew so much about Quakerism, but the archivist could shed no light on that. ___________________________________________ To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com From: doci333@hotmail.com Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 Subject: 1942 Letter by Bill W. In "As Bill See's It" page 14, "Newcomer Problem" in a 1942 letter by Bill W. he writes: "You can't make a horse drink water if he still prefers beer or is too crazy to know what he does want. Set a pail of water beside him, tell him how good it is and why, and leave him alone. "If people really want to get drunk, there is, so far as I know, no way of stopping this - so leave them alone and let them get drunk. But don't exclude them from the water pail, either." 2. LETTER, 1942 Can anyone share the whole letter and any information concerning who the letter was directed to? Any further info. would be appreciated. I searched AA History Lovers and the Digital Archives don't go back that far. Thanks – Dave G., Illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7106. . . . . . . . . . . . What illness did Lois Wilson have on p. 5 of the Big Book? From: bikergaryg@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2011 1:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Big Book p. 5: "Gradually things got worse. The house was taken over by the mortgage holder, my mother-in-law died, my wife and father-in-law became ill." A friend of mine wrote me and asked: "I was reading the BB with someone yesterday and p. 5 of Bill's story refers to Lois being sick (it says, 'my wife got ill'). The person asked me what Lois had ... I had no idea. Do you know?" Thanks and happy 24. Kim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7107. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W''s Norwich University undergraduate major From: royslev . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2011 3:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I noticed a post by Barefoot Bill of an obituary for Bill Wilson which identifies his college major as an undergraduate as "engineering." I've heard Clancy I. refer to Bill as having majored in "electrical engineering." Do we in fact know for sure that it was engineering, and if so, what kind of engineering was it? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7108. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What illness did Lois Wilson have on p. 5 of the Big Book? From: eric_millman . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2011 6:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the movie "My Name is Bill W.," I believe Lois had a miscarriage around that time. Rick M IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7109. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What illness did Lois Wilson have on p. 5 of the Big Book? From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2011 4:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Message #7106 asked: What illness did Lois Wilson have on p. 5 of the Big Book? We need to look at Big Book p. 4: "My wife began to work in a department store." As well as looking at Big Book p. 5: "Gradually things got worse. The house was taken over by the mortgage holder, my mother-in-law died, my wife and father-in-law became ill." In this part of the Big Book, Bill W. seems quite possibly to have conflated events from a number of different years, widely separated, which he arranged totally out of chronological order. He was NOT a good man with dates. But I may be being too skeptical here. Can any of our real Bill W. and Lois experts make better sense out of these events? Could the reference to Lois' illness on page 5 be talking about her ectopic pregnancies? But they occurred in 1922 and 1923. Lois didn't start working at Macy's (page 4) until 1931, implying that the illness referred to on page 5 was something that occurred a number of years later, if we accept the chronology of Bill Wilson's account here in pages 4-5 of the Big Book. _______________________________________ THESE DATES ARE TAKEN FROM: Arthur S. and Archie M. "A Narrative Timeline Of AA History" http://silkworth.net/timelines/timelines_public/timelines_public.html 1922: "Summer, Lois experienced two ectopic pregnancies (the first in Jun and the second in Jul). After the second misfortune, Bill W and Lois were obliged to face the fact that they would never have children. They applied to the Spence-Chapin adoption agency but to no result. In later years, they found out that they were denied the opportunity for adoption due to Bill's drinking. (PIO 67, LR 34, RAA 147-148, NG 315, WPR 59)" 1923: "May, Lois experienced her third ectopic pregnancy which led to surgical removal of her ovaries. Bill W was so drunk he did not go to the hospital to see her. (BW-RT 128, LR 34, RAA 147, BW-FH 37)" 1930: "Dec, after a binge that started in Montreal and carried him into VT, Lois went to get Bill W. They finally returned to Clinton St and moved into a room there. Lois' mother was dying from bone cancer. (PIO 86-87, BW-FH 46)" "Dec 25, Christmas, Lois' mother died. Bill W, drunk for days beforehand, could not attend the funeral and stayed drunk for many days after. (SW 30-31, PIO 87, BW-RT 156, LR 82, BW-FH 46)" 1931: Bill W was able to work occasionally through 1931, but entered a phase of helpless drinking. Lois went to work at Macy's, earning $19 a week ($230 today) and that became their livelihood. (PIO 90, 128, BW-FH 47) _______________________________________ FROM A.A. COMES OF AGE: 1939: In AA Comes of Age, page 173, Bill W. says: "Then, on May first [1939], fresh calamity fell upon 182 Clinton Street. Lois and I had been living in a house which belonged to her parents before their death. The bank had taken it over and rented it to us for a nominal sum. The mortgage was so big the bank had found great difficulty in selling the place, so we had been able to stay there several years. But at this moment they found a purchaser and we had to get out. From its four floors the old brick house disgorged its furniture into a moving van. The warehouse had to pay the mover, since we could not. All our worldly goods were in hock with the warehouse-man, and they were to stay that way for two years more. Where could we go?" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7110. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill W''s Norwich University undergraduate major From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2011 5:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If it was Engineering (and I see no reason to doubt that), it was simply Engineering, assuming Norwich had the same curriculum in Bill's day as it had before 1914. (The only major change ca 1915 was the creation of the ROTC Program after much of the Cadet Corps went off to fight with Pershing in Mexico, and that certainly had nothing to do with the Engineering program.) Norwich, like West Point, was and is a military academy: it used to be the case that all cadets took the same first two years, whatever the major the cadet chose, and course differentiation by majors came only in junior year and beyond. Norwich did offer Civil as well as Military Engineering early on (the first Civil Engineering curriculum in this country, I believe), and now in the 21st century offers Electrical Engineering as one of three Engineering majors, but Norwich also now has students that are not part of the Corps of Cadets, which was not the case in Bill's time and before (including the 19th century). A lot of the USMA Military Engineers 1838-63 went into the Topographical Engineers -- Norwich's "Civil" Engineers built permanent roads and bridges (and lighthouses): they might be used by the Military (and were) but they were Civil Engineering, not Military. It may be of interest to some that in the last quarter of the 20th century, one major firm bearing a name including the word "Electric" constructed a number of power plants and electronic installations and whole military airports and bases in an Arab country -- and all the work was done under the aegis of the firm's public (civil) engineering division. The modern idea that Engineering must be divided into sub-specialties is (except for the one exception in 1838-63) just that -- a modern idea. I don't say Clancy would be wrong -- in fact I think he's right -- in asserting Bill's interest in electricity (his comments on the mysterious force of electricity in discussing dependence -- his putatively being hired by Edison as a research man), but I've been unable to find any indication that the Norwich Engineering curriculum was subdivided before very recent times. If anyone knows anything to the contrary, please let me know. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7111. . . . . . . . . . . . Group inventories From: Steven . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2011 5:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings everyone. Does anyone have any information on the origins of the AA Group inventory? I am aware of the traditions checklist and the concept checklist etc... What did we do before them? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7112. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Group inventories From: Lawrence Willoughby . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2011 10:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To the best of my knowledge the first group inventory was when there was a vote to withdraw from the Oxford Group. - - - - From: Steven Subject: Group inventories Date: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 Greetings everyone. Does anyone have any information on the origins of the AA Group inventory? I am aware of the traditions checklist and the concept checklist etc... What did we do before them? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7113. . . . . . . . . . . . group inventory From: shakey1aa . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/20/2011 10:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The man with the double stigma discussed in tradition 3 before Jimmy B (Ed) may be the 1st case of group inventory. In Jimmy's story he says the book was beginning to be written when he 1st came in (1938.) Jimmy's case may have been the second documented case of a group inventory. I'll be interested to read about earlier cases of a group inventory. YIS, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila, PA. USA "going to Montana soon" NAW15 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7114. . . . . . . . . . . . Early Grapevine editor Joe T. From: charlie brooke . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/19/2011 4:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings group: Does anyone have any information on Joe Trundle, an early Grapevine editor who was sent to Virginia to do a 12th Step call? I am also looking for information about his wife Charlotte, who was a secretary at the early GSO. Charliespins IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7115. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: group inventory From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/20/2011 5:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Group Inventory: these are meetings at which members work toward understanding how well the group is fulfilling its primary purpose. See section on Group Inventory, p.27, from The AA Group. I think it is Pamphlet 16. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7116. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Cecil Rose, When Man Listens From: mrpetesplace . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2011 5:05:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Just an announcement that the link in Message #6166 to Cecil Rose, When Man Listens, is no longer valid. You can still find a link to it by going to the AAStuff home page at http://aastuff.com/ But the actual text of Rose's book has now been moved to its own separate website: http://WhenManListens.com ________________________________________ Original message #6166 from "mrpetesplace" (peter at aastuff.com) AAStuff has just added the full text of "When Man Listens" by Cecil Rose, on http://aastuff.com/ see page http://aastuff.com/whenmanlistens.htm [THIS LINK IS NO LONGER VALID] Cecil Rose, When Man Listens (New York: Oxford University Press, 1937). Dedicated "to the Oxford Group, the growing army of men and women who are proving afresh for our generation that 'When man listens, God speaks; when man obeys, God works.'" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7117. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Group inventories From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2011 11:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Are we perhaps confusing a group inventory with a group conscience? A group takes its inventory using a suggested checklist (the Grapevine published one I believe). I have never read anything about a "vote" to withdraw from the Oxford Group by the New York contingent (I assume this is what the writer refers to?). I would be interested to see a reference or source for the statement? Akron withdrew in 1939, but there were many instances of documented group conscience by then. My understanding of the first recorded instance of "group conscience" is when Charlie Towns offered Bill a job at Towns as a "lay therapist" in 1936. The group got together and convinced Bill this was not in the best interest of the fledgling fellowship (the drunk squad of the Oxford Group). I believe you will find this documented in both Pass It On and A.A. Comes of Age. God Bless John B IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7118. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Cecil Rose, When Man Listens From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2011 10:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I long ago constructed a nice page about this book at: http://www.aabibliography.com/cecil_rose_when_man_listens_oxford_group_pamph let.\ html [1] There is a free pdf of this book which can be downloaded there. LD Pierce www.aabibliography.com __________________________________________ "mrpetesplace" wrote: > > Just an announcement that the link in Message #6166 to Cecil Rose, When Man Listens, is no longer valid. You can still find a link to it by going to the AAStuff home page at http://aastuff.com/ > > But the actual text of Rose's book has now been moved to its own separate website: http://WhenManListens.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7119. . . . . . . . . . . . Tuchy (Carl) Palmieri From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2011 11:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anybody know who Tuchy (Carl) Palmieri is? See http://www.authorsden.com/ae/viewworks_all.asp?Authorid=81922 Mr Palmeri seems to be reprinting a lot of Oxford Group books. Was he the one making the cecil rose book available on aastuff.com?? LD Pierce www.aabibliography.com ______________________________________ "mrpetesplace" wrote: > > Just an announcement that the link in Message #6166 to Cecil Rose, When Man Listens, is no longer valid. You can still find a link to it by going to the AAStuff home page at http://aastuff.com/ > > But the actual text of Rose's book has now been moved to its own separate website: http://WhenManListens.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7120. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Tuchy (Carl) Palmieri From: Kevin Short . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/23/2011 5:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is information about Tuchy in his http://www.healing-habits.com/ web site. Kevin Short ______________________________________ -----Original Message----- From: "diazeztone" Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 Subject: Tuchy (Carl) Palmieri Does anybody know who Tuchy (Carl) Palmieri is? See http://www.authorsden.com/ae/viewworks_all.asp?Authorid=81922 Mr Palmeri seems to be reprinting a lot of Oxford Group books. Was he the one making the cecil rose book available on aastuff.com?? LD Pierce www.aabibliography.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7121. . . . . . . . . . . . Photos of Shep Cornell and Cebra Graves From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/23/2011 11:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am trying to find pictures of Shep Cornell and Cebra Graves, but am having no luck in the finding any. Any photos will be much appreciated. Thanks! Bob Stonebraker (rstonebraker212 at comcast.net) 212 SW 18th Street Richmond, IN 47374 (765) 935-0130 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7122. . . . . . . . . . . . ANNIVERSARY OF BILL W''S DEATH From: Norm The Tinman . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/24/2011 12:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill Wilson died on this day -- 24th Jan 1971 -- in Miami, Florida. A sad day for the fellowship for sure -- but I know I will be grateful to him as long as I'm on this earth. Norm L. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7123. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Group inventories From: shakey1aa@yahoo.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/24/2011 12:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The question is not relevant. The time we are talking about had no GSO, there were only a couple groups. Thank God there was no service structure then to louse it up. Shakes Mike Gwirtz Phila,PA USA -----Original message----- From: jax760 To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 19:50:28 GMT+00:00 Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Group inventories Are we perhaps confusing a group inventory with a group conscience? A group takes its inventory using a suggested checklist (the Grapevine published one I believe). I have never read anything about a "vote" to withdraw from the Oxford Group by the New York contingent (I assume this is what the writer refers to?). I would be interested to see a reference or source for the statement? Akron withdrew in 1939, but there were many instances of documented group conscience by then. My understanding of the first recorded instance of "group conscience" is when Charlie Towns offered Bill a job at Towns as a "lay therapist" in 1936. The group got together and convinced Bill this was not in the best interest of the fledgling fellowship (the drunk squad of the Oxford Group). I believe you will find this documented in both Pass It On and A.A. Comes of Age. God Bless John B IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7124. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: ANNIVERSARY OF BILL W''S DEATH From: Sherry C. Hartsell . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/24/2011 5:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AMEN! sherry - - - - From: Norm The Tinman Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 Subject: ANNIVERSARY OF BILL W'S DEATH Bill Wilson died on this day -- 24th Jan 1971 -- in Miami, Florida. A sad day for the fellowship for sure -- but I know I will be grateful to him as long as I'm on this earth. Norm L. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7125. . . . . . . . . . . . ANNIVERSARY OF BILL W''S DEATH From: George Cleveland . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/24/2011 11:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Wasn't it also Bill & Lois' wedding anniversary? - - - - From G.C. the moderator: Yes, you're right, it sure was. "Jan 24, 1918 spurred by rumor that Bill W might soon go overseas, he and Lois were married at the Swedenborgian Church in Brooklyn, NY. Lois’ brother Rogers Burnham was best man." From the Narrative Timeline of AA History at http://silkworth.net/timelines/timelines_public/timelines_public.html - - - - > From: Norm The Tinman > > Bill Wilson died on this day -- 24th Jan 1971 -- > in Miami, Florida. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7126. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Cecil Rose, When Man Listens From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2011 2:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII OK, I reckon I'll put my two cents in. Cecil Rose, When Man Listens is also available from silkworth.net: http://www.silkworth.net/cecil_rose/cr_tablecontents.html WHEN MAN LISTENS by Cecil Rose Everyone can listen to God. When man listens, God speaks. When man obeys, God works. When men are changed, nations change. TO THE OXFORD GROUP THE GROWING ARMY OF MEN AND WOMEN WHO ARE PROVING AFRESH FOR OUR GENERATION THAT When man listens, God speaks; When man obeys, God works. Yours in service, Jim M, Go to silkworth.net >>> Visit us on Facebook! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7127. . . . . . . . . . . . Where was Ebby residing? From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2011 3:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In late summer, 1934, Ebby Thacher faced confinement at a Brattleboro, VT, mental institution after another drunken episode. However, Judge Graves released him to the care of several Oxford Groupers: Rowland Hazard in particular. After closing the large Thacher home at 110 Taconic Ave., in Manchester, VT., Ebby took up residence in Shep Cornell's Manhattan apartment for a short period, then moved into either the doubtlessly plush Oxford Group's Parish House (Calvary House), or perhaps instead, a rather dismal Mission several blocks away. Question: . . . . During this period, did Ebby reside at Calvary House, near 21st and Park Ave, and attend meetings at the mission? . . . . or did Ebby actually live IN Calvary Mission at 346 East 23rd Street? I have read reports of both circumstances, but I would appreciate reliable verification. Thank you. Bob S. ____________________ PS -- further question -- is the Calvary Mission still in existence? Bob Stonebraker 212 SW 18th Street Richmond, IN 47374 (765) 935-0130 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7128. . . . . . . . . . . . Who was asked to work for a liquor trade association ? From: Ben Hammond . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/28/2011 8:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Howdy from Tulsa .... Who was the AA asked to work for a liquor trade association mentioned in the 12 X 12 on pages 157-159 ... And which association was asking ?? Thanks for your great group...Old Ben, Tulsa OK Ben & Mary Lynn Hammond 5126 S. St. Louis Av Tulsa, Oklahoma 74105 918 313 4059 - - - - From Glenn C. There are partial parallels to this in the story of Marty Mann and the National Council on Alcoholism. See the following two books (both available from amazon.com): Sally Brown and David R. Brown, A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous (2001). An outstanding biography of one of our most important early AA leaders. Nancy Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of Alcoholism (2003). Describes how the Hughes Act was passed and financed (the basis of the modern legal treatment of alcoholics and the structure of most modern alcoholism treatment centers). http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kNO2.html http://hindsfoot.org/kNO3.html Nancy Olson's book told how Marty Mann was using grants from national alcohol industry associations to help support the National Council on Alcoholism for quite a few years, and had representatives of those groups on the NCA's board. Marty finally quit accepting money from them (and kicked them off the board) only fairly late in her career, after she began to realize the increasing possibilities of having the NCA's message seriously distorted by the liquor interests. Why increasing? For a number of years after AA was first founded, the organized liquor interests loved AA, because they could use it to battle against the prohibitionist groups who wanted to ban all alcohol sales in the United States. Look at AA, they could say, the problem isn't alcohol, it's the relatively small percentage of the population who are alcoholics. But once the prohibitionist movement pretty much died off in the U.S., the organized liquor trade began attacking and undercutting AA in every way they could think of. A large percentage of the alcohol sales in the United States go to practicing alcoholics, who consume enormously more alcohol per person than normal social drinkers. The organized liquor industry's advertising people are behind the "red wine keeps you from having heart attacks" articles that appear periodically in American newspapers and magazines. These ignore the fact that even just one glass of red wine a day raises your chances of dying from cancer of various kinds -- colon, breast, etc. -- and of dying from many other things -- liver disease, etc. -- to such a degree that, as an important Irish study showed, it raises the overall death rate, not lowers it. The Irish study showed that one drink a day for younger people (two drinks a day for older people), will take a year off your life span, statistically speaking. Also the totally false claims that modern AA "only has a 5% success rate" or that "it has been proven that the same percentage of alcoholics quit drinking who simply attempt to quit on their own." Also all of the "A.A. is a cult" anti-AA propaganda was egged on by them. Both are totally bogus claims, but the organized liquor industry has deep pockets when it comes to saturating the media with disinformation. Even some of our more naive AA people get sucked into believing some of this, and actually help the liquor industry publicize these claims. Nancy Olson's book still ought to be "must" reading for anyone who wants to seriously understand how politics, along with the struggle for money and power (where large numbers of psychiatrists and psychotherapists have sometimes been as anti-AA as the liquor industry), has distorted what Americans think they know about AA and alcoholism and the best methods of treating alcoholism. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7129. . . . . . . . . . . . Photo of Bill W. with hole in shoe From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2011 11:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone have a link to that picture of Bill W. with the hole in his shoe? (Feet up on the Office desk -- that's why you can see it.) Thanks... -cm IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7130. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Where was Ebby residing? From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/28/2011 5:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From John B. (jax760) and Richard Dillon - - - - From John B. (jax760 at yahoo.com) According to Mel B. in "EBBY: The Man Who Sponsored Bill W." Ebby lived at the Mission. The mission closed its doors for good in 1936. Best Regards, John B - - - - From: Richard Dillon According to pg 115 in Pass It On, Ebby stayed at the 23rd St. mission which, last time I checked in 2008, is a adult movie store! Rich D. Astoria N.Y IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7131. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Where was Ebby residing? From: Kevin Short . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/28/2011 8:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Kevin Short, Chris B., and Alex H. - - - - From: Kevin Short (kshort at oxmicro.com) There is now a McDonald's at the former location of the Calvary Mission at 346 East 23rd Street. Next door is an upscale residence. The Calvary Church (at Gramercy Park) has undergone recent renovations, specifically in the hall where Sam Shoemaker held gatherings. There is now a Thrift Shop in the basement, where the Oxford Group headquarters were located. Kevin S. - - - - From: "Chris B" (beachbuddah at gmail.com) I can't comment on Ebby's residence, but I can in response to your curiosity about the Mission at Calvary. While the parish no longer has their homeless shelter, they still offer a weekly soup kitchen and also a weekly food pantry. I both visited their website and also gave them a call; that's the info I got. Love and service, Chris B. - - - - From: "Alex H." (odat at utj.org) 346 East 23rd Street: you can look this up with Google Earth and see a picture of the area at street level. It looks like businesses at street level with condos above. The buildings look reasonably modern, no earlier than 1960. "Near 21st and Park Ave".... Calvary Episcopal Church (The Parish of Calvary-St. George's) 277 Park Avenue South, New York. It is still there and it looks old enough. Apparently it has merged with another church (St. George's Church) and they hold their services together at the Park Avenue location (The Calvary). Here is the web site... http://www.calvarystgeorges.org/ Here is a link that describes church organs but also notes the history of the church and names it as Rev. Shoemaker's church where the Oxford Groups began and the small description mentions AA ... "Under the Rev. Samuel Moor Shoemaker, III (1893-1963), the Calvary Church Mission in the Bowery became the virtual American headquarters for the Oxford Group during the 1930s. From this group came Alcoholics Anonymous." http://www.nycago.org/Organs/NYC/html/CalvaryEpis.html As a side note, Eric Metaxas attends the church now. He came to lecture here in Texas in mid-January, 2011 talking about his book, a biography of Rev. Bonhoeffer, of one of the men who tried to assassinate Hitler. (Recall the recent movie, "Valkyrie.") I am reading the book now. It is entitled, "Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy - A Righteous Gentile vs. the Third Reich". Looking in my Kindle edition of the book, I see the Calvary Church on Park Avenue is mentioned as the location where Rev. Buchman (the founder of the Oxford Groups) gave his most unfortunate remark regarding Hitler. (See Kindle location 5334-36, or so. I am not used to citing Kindle locations.)... "Later in August Buchman made his tragic remark: "I thank heaven for a man like Adolf Hitler, who built a front line of defense against the anti-Christ of Communism." It was a throwaway comment made in an interview with the New York World Telegram from his office at Calvary Church on Park Avenue and Twenty-first Street, and it did not reflect his wider thinking on the subject. Still, it illustrates how easily even the most serious Christians were initially taken in by Hitler's conservative pseudo-Christian propaganda." As I recall my reading (On the Tail of a Comet: The Life of Frank Buchman by Garth Lean), at the time, Rev. Frank Buchman was attempting to convince one of Hitler's henchmen (was it Goebbels?) to become a Christian. As it was portrayed in this biography Buchman was misled by Hitler's close adviser to seem as if he was interested in converting. This caused Buchman to soften his tone toward Hitler at first. The Bonhoeffer biography makes it clear that misleading Christians into thinking Hitler was pro-Christian was an early tactic of Hitler and Bonhoeffer lamented that such a prominent Christian as Rev. Buchman was taken in by this lie, though many Christians were at first. Bonhoeffer was the notable exception rather than the rule. BTW, I am a Jew but I tend to defend Christians using the logic of the tragic poem of Pastor Martin Niemoller... "First They Came" First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me. So now I speak out for the Christians in the hope that they will speak out for me if the time should come. Alex H. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7132. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Photo of Bill W. with hole in shoe From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2011 10:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Cindy, that is a great shot of Bill, but I don't know of any links. I have a photo which I took of this photo; it was taken at the GSO Archives. I'm sure the photo remains on one of the walls of the first vestibule. Rick, Illinois __________________________________ From GC the moderator: unfortunately, the Yahoo group system which we use for the AAHistoryLovers strips off all attachments before they arrive on our Pending Message board. It also does not allow us to add attachments to messages which we post. __________________________________ From: Cindy Miller Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 Subject: Photo of Bill W. with hole in shoe Does anyone have a link to that picture of Bill W. with the hole in his shoe? (Feet up on the Office desk -- that's why you can see it.) Thanks... -cm IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7133. . . . . . . . . . . . New York personal stories in 1st edit. of Big Book From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2011 4:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I find a substantial similarity in the style of writing between Hank Parkhurst's personal story, "The Unbeliever," and Fitz Mayo's personal story, "Our Southern Friend." It is known that Jim Scott helped edit the Akron stories, so I wonder whether some of the New York personal stories were also edited by a professional writer before entering the manuscript. I see where some stories were edited after the manuscript was assembled in February of 1939, but I mean before (or as) the Manuscript was first assembled -- before it was sent out for suggestions. Does anyone know? Bob S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7134. . . . . . . . . . . . Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Reinhold Niebuhr From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2011 6:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 07:01 1/28/2011, Kevin Short wrote: > >The Bonhoeffer biography makes it clear that misleading Christians >into thinking Hitler was pro-Christian was an early tactic of Hitler >and Bonhoeffer lamented that such a prominent Christian as Rev. >Buchman was taken in by this lie, though many Christians were at >first. Bonhoeffer was the notable exception rather than the rule. > Dietrich Bonhoeffer was close to Reinhold Niebuhr, the author of The Serenity Prayer. He stayed with the Niebuhrs in New York City before he returned to Nazi Germany to his fate. Bonhoeffer's sister, Christine, married Hans von Dohnanyi; they were the parents of Christoph, a well-known conductor. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7135. . . . . . . . . . . . Pamphlet Project Volume 5 From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2011 4:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have found a few more pamphlets that I have not seen or heard about yet. I am looking for date of initial pamphlet and picture of the cover of each listed below: ================================== What about the alcoholic employee medicine looks at alcoholics anonymous The society of Alcoholics Anonymous AA a uniquely American phenomena (Fortune Mag) Respecting Money your general service your role in the general service conference guide to a.a. our critics can be our benefactors suggestions for improving aa's relationship with the medical profession and the community ================================== Working on Volume 5, "What we used to look like --- What we look like now." Thanks in advance for your interest. John Wikelius (justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7136. . . . . . . . . . . . The four paragraphs added to Bill''s story From: theanonymous752 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2011 8:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Since getting the recent publication "The book that started it all," I have been intrigued by the four paragraphs from Bill's story that were added to the original typed manuscript. These four paragraphs, from page 12 of the current edition, are present at the beginning of the manuscript in hand written form. What I found most interesting is that these paragraphs are NOT in Bill's handwriting. They look to be in Henry Parkhurst's handwriting. Many thanks to Old Bill and John Barton for their posts (6930 and 4377) on this topic. Does anyone know any more about this? Would appreciate any information. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7137. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Photo of Bill W. with hole in shoe From: Bill . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2011 5:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It's possible to send a link to your images (if you want to make them available on the AAHistoryLovers with http://imageshack.us/ Greetings William (Belgium) - - - - > From GC the moderator: unfortunately, the Yahoo group system which we use for the AAHistoryLovers strips off all attachments before they arrive on our Pending Message board. It also does not allow us to add attachments to messages which we post. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7138. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Photo of Bill W. with hole in shoe From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2011 11:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Hole-in-shoe topic is a good reminder about the conditions during the Great Depression. Many people wore shoes with such holes. New shoes (or even getting them re-soled) was a luxury less important than buying food. I was a child during the Great Depression and had shoes with such holes, all the way through to the foot. I (and my brother) used to put pieces of cardboard on the inside to protect our foot, then change the cardboard frequently as it, too, wore through. Fortunately, my father was a millwright and worked in factories which used many machines driven by long, heavy, leather belts. Those belts were very durable but did wear out beyond repair sometimes. He brought home pieces of such belts (about 1/4 inch thick occasionally) and cut pieces to fit our shoe soles. These were nailed onto the shoe-uppers around the edge as cobblers still do today. There also were rubber, pre-sized shoe sole patches for sale which could be glued on the the worn bottoms. (unfortunately, the glue was often not of good quality, and after a few days might become loose, resulting in a "floppy walk" until again repaired. Les C Colorado Springs, CO [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7139. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: New York personal stories in 1st edit. of Big Book From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2011 11:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Since Parkhurst, Fitz, Bill (and others) were all close friends at that time in NYC, perhaps they actually sort of collaborated on their writings. From my reading (and looking at the marginal notes, etc) of the newly published "original printer copy", I think it is very likely that Hank had a major role in final clearance of the manuscript as it went to the printer. He had more business experience than Bill, and I assume the others were happy with his role. (Note his initials on each page.) Also, I can imagine that the word-by-word review was done by the "clerical type" folks after Bill added his ideas as to conceptual meanings. We should remember that many people had sent their comments ... then the folks in NYC must have entered those comments upon their working draft. Therefore, the handwriting analysis for everything does not mean that the writer had those thoughts ... they were simply the scribe for what had been received from many other folks. Les C Colorado Springs, Colorado IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7140. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Where was Ebby residing? From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2011 11:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Was not the site of the Calvary Mission the site of the original Waters Street Mission?? LD Pierce www.aabibliography.com - - - - --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Short wrote: > > From Kevin Short, Chris B., and Alex H. > > - - - - > > From: Kevin Short > (kshort at oxmicro.com) > > > There is now a McDonald's at the former location of the Calvary Mission at 346 East 23rd Street. Next door is an upscale residence. > > The Calvary Church (at Gramercy Park) has undergone recent renovations, specifically in the hall where Sam Shoemaker held gatherings. There is now a Thrift Shop in the basement, where the Oxford Group headquarters were located. > > Kevin S. > > - - - - > > From: "Chris B" > (beachbuddah at gmail.com) > > I can't comment on Ebby's residence, but I can in response to your curiosity about the Mission at Calvary. While the parish no longer has their homeless shelter, they still offer a weekly soup kitchen and also a weekly food pantry. I both visited their website and also gave them a call; that's the info I got. > > Love and service, > > Chris B. > > - - - - > > From: "Alex H." (odat at utj.org) > > 346 East 23rd Street: you can look this up with Google Earth and see a picture of the area at street level. It looks like businesses at street level with condos above. The buildings look reasonably modern, no earlier than 1960. > > "Near 21st and Park Ave".... > > Calvary Episcopal Church (The Parish of Calvary-St. George's) 277 Park Avenue South, New York. It is still there and it looks old enough. Apparently it has merged with another church (St. George's Church) and they hold their services together at the Park Avenue location (The Calvary). Here is the web site... > > http://www.calvarystgeorges.org/ > > Here is a link that describes church organs but also notes the history of the church and names it as Rev. Shoemaker's church where the Oxford Groups began and the small description mentions AA ... "Under the Rev. Samuel Moor Shoemaker, III (1893-1963), the Calvary Church Mission in the Bowery became the virtual American headquarters for the Oxford Group during the 1930s. From this group came Alcoholics Anonymous." > > http://www.nycago.org/Organs/NYC/html/CalvaryEpis.html > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7141. . . . . . . . . . . . Agatha Christie, Miss Marple, 1930 Oxford Group mystery story From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2011 11:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Slightly off topic, but I found an Agatha Christie Miss Marple 1930 oxford group mystery story called "Tape Measure Murder" from the book 13 clues for Miss Marple (Dodds and Mead, 1966). She evidently had another one unpublished: http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/2886 It was called "The Capture of Cerberus" http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208212/Unseen-60-years-Mail-proudly -pre\ sent-Agatha-Christies-lost-masterpiece-The-Capture-Cerberus.html [2] ========================================== The Capture Of Cerberus (she wrote a completely different short story with the same title in 1947) revolves around a dictator called August Hertzlein, who is clearly Adolf Hitler. In the course of the plot, Christie expresses the naive hope that Hitler could have been converted to Christianity and begun preaching love and peace. There really were people in the Thirties who believed this. One of them was Frank Buchman, founder of the Oxford Group, a hugely influential movement which has gone under various titles, including Moral Rearmament and Festival Of Light. The story was found in her longhand notebooks by John Curran, a Christie enthusiast and author in his own right. ========================================== LD Pierce www.aabibliography.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7142. . . . . . . . . . . . More on Agatha Christie, Tape Measure Murder, Oxford Group From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2011 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII you can read the entire story online at Tape Measure Murder: http://books.google.com/books?id=uloAmt3O63MC&lpg=PA127&ots=fJ5zziCVll&dq=ag atha\ %20christie%20oxford%20group&pg=PA115#v=onepage&q&f=false [3] Short link http://tiny.cc/christi_tape , scroll to page. ld pierce www.aabibliography.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7143. . . . . . . . . . . . The list of AA is not From: Jo Jo . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2011 11:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know where the list of "AA is not" can be found ? Years John Mears used to read it at the start of each meeting up in Brooksville. I think it was out of the Grapevine. Any help would be appreciated ..... Thanks Joe M (jmastromar at aol.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7144. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pamphlet Project Volume 5 From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2011 7:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII John, is this for some book or other publication? shakey mike - - - - In a message dated 2/4/2011 5:36:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, justjohn1431946@yahoo.com writes: I have found a few more pamphlets that I have not seen or heard about yet. I am looking for date of initial pamphlet and picture of the cover of each listed below: +What about the alcoholic employee +medicine looks at alcoholics anonymous +The society of Alcoholics Anonymous +AA a uniquely American phenomena (Fortune Mag) +Respecting Money +your general service +your role in the general service conference +guide to a.a. +our critics can be our benefactors +suggestions for improving aa's relationship with the medical profession and the community Working on Volume 5, "What we used to look like -- What we look like now." John Wikelius IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7145. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pamphlet Project Volume 5 From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/5/2011 10:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is a series I have been compiling for several years. volume one distilled factoids is aa books their dates and printings volume two alanon and alcoholism volume three grapevine volume four magazines associated with alcoholism, prohibition, temperance etc. includes cover art, date and title of article. volume five is pamphlets. ____________________________________________ --- On Fri, 2/4/11, Shakey1aa@aol.com wrote: John, is this for some book or other publication? shakey mike IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7146. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Where was Ebby residing? From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/5/2011 6:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Men Who Came to Believe "Samuel Hopkins Hadley took over as Superintendent of the McAuley Rescue Mission at 316 Water Street in 1886. From that time until his death in 1906 he helped convert hundreds, if not thousands, of hopeless drunks. Sam's son, Henry Harrison Hadley II, named after Sam's brother Coronal Henry Harrison Hadley, would also sober up and be converted after his father's death. Harry Hadley would later corroborate with Sam Shoemaker in opening the Calvary Mission on 23rd Street in Manhattan and become its first superintendent. At The Calvary Mission both Ebby Thacher and Bill Wilson would separately answer calls to come to the rail, kneel at the mercy seat, and experience the Power of conversion." - Excerpt from The Golden Road of Devotion John Barton - - - - Was not the site of the Calvary Mission the site of the original Waters Street Mission?? LD Pierce www.aabibliography.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7147. . . . . . . . . . . . The list of AA is not From: S Sommers . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/5/2011 10:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From S Sommers, Laurence Holbrook, G.C. the moderator, Azor521, and Gary Becktell - - - - From: S Sommers (scmws at yahoo.com) >>also from: "Kimball Rowe" (roweke at msn.com) There is a list in P-42 A Brief Guide to Alcoholics Anonymous called "What does AA NOT do?" It lists ten things starting with: 1. AA does not run membership drives.... This list on pages 10 and 11 of the pamphlet is the closest thing I know to an "AA is not." Thanks for everything. Sam S in Elkhart, Indiana - - - - From: "Laurence Holbrook" (email at LaurenceHolbrook.com) AAWS has a pamphlet "Information on A.A." - WHAT A.A. IS AND ISN'T - Information on Alcoholics Anonymous What A.A. Does Not Do A.A. does not: 1. Furnish initial motivation for alcoholics to recover 2. Solicit members 3. Engage in or sponsor research 4. Keep attendance records or case histories 5. Join "councils" of social agencies 6. Follow up or try to control its members 7. Make medical or psychological diagnoses or prognoses 8. Provide drying-out or nursing services, hospitalization, drugs, or any medical or psychiatric treatment 9. Offer religious services or host/sponsor retreats. 10. Engage in education about alcohol 11. Provide housing, food, clothing, jobs, money, or any other welfare or social services 12. Provide domestic or vocational counseling 13. Accept any money for its services, or any contributions from non-A.A. sources 14. Provide letters of reference to parole boards, lawyers, court officials, social agencies, employers, etc. It's available here, if this is what you are looking for: http://www.aa.org/lang/en/catalog.cfm?origpage=11&product=84 Also as a PDF on that page - Hope this helps Larry - - - - From G.C. the moderator: there's a copy of the list on the leaflet called "A.A. at a glance," which can be found at http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/f-1_AAataGlance.pdf What A.A. Does Not Do A.A. does not: Keep membership records or case histories. . . engage in or support research. . . join “councils” or social agencies (although A.A. members, groups and service offices frequently cooperate with them). . . follow up or try to control its members. . . make medical or psychiatric prognoses or dispense medicines or psychiatric advise. . . provide drying-out or nursing services or sanitariums. . . offer religious services. . . provide housing, food, clothing, jobs, money, or other welfare or social services. . . provide domestic or vocational counseling. . . provide letters of reference to parole boards, lawyers, court officials, social agencies, employers, etc. - - - - From: Azor521@aol.com >>also from "Gary Becktell" You might check these sites: http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/f-2_InfoonAA1.pdf gives a fourteen-item list: What A.A. Does Not Do A.A. does not: 1. Furnish initial motivation for alcoholics to recover 2. Solicit members 3. Engage in or sponsor research 4. Keep attendance records or case histories 5. Join “councils” of social agencies 6. Follow up or try to control its members 7. Make medical or psychological diagnoses or prognoses 8. Provide drying-out or nursing services, hospitalization, drugs, or any medical or psychiatric treatment 9. Offer religious services or host/sponsor retreats. 10. Engage in education about alcohol 11. Provide housing, food, clothing, jobs, money, or any other welfare or social services 12. Provide domestic or vocational counseling 13. Accept any money for its services, or any contributions from non-A.A. sources 14. Provide letters of reference to parole boards, lawyers, court officials, social agencies, employers, etc. http://www.alcoholicsanonymous.ie/opencontent/default.asp?itemid=13§ion= Abou\ t+Us [4] gives a ten-item list: What AA Does Not Do 1. Solicit membership or try to persuade anyone to join A.A. who does not want to. 2. Keep membership records or case histories. 3. Engage in or sponsor research. 4. Join counselling or social agencies, although A.A. members frequently co-operate with them. 5. Make medical or psychological diagnosis or prognosis. 6. Provide drying out or nursing services, hospitalisation, drugs or any medical or psychiatric treatment. 7. Engage in education or propaganda about alcohol. 8. Provide housing, clothes, food, jobs, money or other welfare or social services. 9. Provide domestic counselling. 10. Accept money for its service or any money from non A.A. sources. ____________________________________________ Original question was from: Jo Jo (jmastromar at aol.com) Date: Friday, February 4, 2011 Does anyone know where the list of "AA is not" can be found? Years John Mears used to read it at the start of each meeting up in Brooksville. I think it was out of the Grapevine. Any help would be appreciated ..... Thanks Joe M IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7148. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The list of AA is not -- a list from the Grapevine From: Dale . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/6/2011 1:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Joe, found this on a site after a google search and a few minutes of wading through "other stuff." Is this the list you recall being read? The site attributes it to the Grapevine (January 1991). To the site owner's credit they sought permission from and give credit to the Grapevine. Best regards, Dale P, 6-5-87, Longmont CO ________________________________________ WHAT AA IS NOT 1. AA is not an institutional clearing program. It does not promise that we will receive suspended sentences, probations, or paroles. AA does not promise conditional releases, stays of proceedings, or the early releases from prisons or hospitals. 2. AA is not a "dating game" nor is it a lonely hearts club or a place to find a temporary or permanent lover. 3. AA is not an employment agency or manpower training program. It does not promise that we'll all find jobs, get rich, or even become financially solvent. 4. AA is not a charitable organization like the welfare system or the Salvation Army. It doesn't promise that we'll be loaned money or given cigarettes. AA is not a bank or a credit union, and is not set up to provide funds for anyone. 5. AA is not a church program or a religious organization (although many groups rent church spaces to hold their meetings.) AA does not force religion down anyone's throat. It does encourage us to develop and nourish individual spiritual ways here and now, but it doesn't demand that we believe anything. Saving souls and making converts is not the purpose of AA. 6. AA does not promise that we'll never be hurt or feel pain. When AA talks about serenity, it is not talking about the absence of calamity but peace of heart, mind and spirit in the midst of calamity. AA is not saying that we'll have no more problems; it's saying that we'll be given what we need to deal with, and go through, those problems. The absence of troubles is not the purpose of AA. Reprinted by permission of: AA Grapevine 1991 Grapevine Inc. January edition IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7149. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Where was Ebby residing? From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/8/2011 4:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The below has Bill W talking about going down 23rd Street and going to the mission. So I think it leaves 316 Waters Street out of any ties to Bill Wilson at the time he was drinking in 1934. Wilson's first visit to Calvary Mission is described in the book "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" as follows: "One day, while feeling pretty maudlin, I got a great idea. I figured it was time I did some religious investigation on my own hook. Remembering that Ebby, a old drinking friend of mine, had been lodged by members of the Oxford Group at Sam Shoemaker's Calvary Church Mission. I thought I would go and see what they did down there. I left the subway at Fourth Ave. and 23rd St. It was a good long walk along 23rd St., so I began stopping in bars. I spent most of the afternoon in bars and forgot all about the Mission. At nightfall I found myself in excited conversation in a bar with a Finn named Alec. He said he had been a sailmaker and a fisherman in the old country. I thought again of the Mission. Over there I would find fishers of men. Oddly enough it seemed like a wonderful idea." "I sold Alec on coming along and soon we reeled in the front door of the Mission. Tex Francisco, an ex-alky in charge was right there to meet us. He not only ran the place, he proposed to run us out of it! This made us quite sore as we thought of our good intentions." "Just then Ebby turned up grinning. He said, 'What about a plate of beans?' After the food, Alec and I had slightly clearer heads. Ebby told us there would be a meeting in the Mission pretty soon. Would we like to go? Certainly we would go; that's why we were there. The three of us were soon sitting on one of those hard wooden benches that filled the place. I had never seen a Mission before, and I shivered a little when I looked at the derelict audience. There was a smell of sweat and alcohol. I could well imagine how much suffering was represented in this gathering." AA Comes of Age, as quoted in: http://www.examiner.com/addiction-in-baltimore/baltimore-born-reverend-dr-sa m-sh\ oemaker-has-ties-to-local-treatment-center-and-aa-beginnings [5] ___________________________________________ The waters street mission was at 316 Waters St., see below: http://www.correctionhistory.org/html/chronicl/mcauley/mcauley.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7150. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The list of AA is not From: last_town . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2011 11:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This information is also found in The AA Group pamphlet (P16) http://www.aa.org/catalog.cfm?category=4&product=41 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7151. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: New York personal stories in 1st edit. of Big Book From: JoeA . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/10/2011 5:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I with I had the memory I once had, but I was told that Parkhurst re-wrote several bits of other people's stories in the first edition, and that it caused some friction in the New York group. But I cannot remember the source of that tidbit. Perhaps someone here has the reference. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7152. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: New York personal stories in 1st edit. of Big Book From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/10/2011 4:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Below taken from: http://www.aabibliography.com/historybb.htm (Home: http://www.aabibliography.com/index.html ) A History of The Big Book - Alcoholics Anonymous Written by Donald B. Copied by permission. (Minor editing by Lyle P. and Byron B.) The main text was completed, and as was the custom in those days, many books had a section of personal stories, such as Science and Health by Mary Baker Eddy, Twice Born Men, For Sinners Only, and The Changed Life. The New York stories were very slow coming in. Hank and Bill tried editing them, polishing and occasionally rewriting them, which was probably a mistake. An alcoholic has pride in his own story, drunk or sober, and they felt their stories should not be tampered with. Meanwhile in Akron, Dr. Bob had sobered up a newspaper writer named Jim Scott, who was helping the boys from Akron write their stories. Scott was born in Australia, and graduated from the University of Glasgow, then came to America shortly before World War I. He had worked for a time as a reporter for a Pittsburgh newspaper, then held a series of jobs, losing most of them because of drunkenness. After service in the Canadian Army, he came to Akron in 1919 as a reporter on Goodyear Tire's Wingfoot Clan, advancing to editor, but resigning in 1926 because of drinking problems. In 1930, he began to trade and sell books to support his drinking, opening a shop that soon failed. He then loaded a car with books and traveled around the country selling them to libraries and historical societies. Job after job, finally he landed a job with the Federal Writer's Project, and edited the first edition of the Texas Federal Writer's Project Book. When he finished that project, a friend put him on a bus to Akron, where he arrived drunk. Scott took his last drink in 1937. Nineteen of the stories in the first edition came from Akron. Obvious that the greatest assets of alcoholics in helping others recover was their personal stories, this constituted over half of the text. This created a big problem in Akron because many of the Akronites did not want the book printed. Bill D., AA number three, did not agree with the book project and would not allow his story to be used. It was not until the second edition in 1955 that Bill D.'s story was first printed. Bill Wilson traveled to Akron, interviewed Bill D., and personally wrote the story. Scott worked with the drunks on their stories and helped rewrite them. Sue Smith-Windows was going to Business College at the time and typed some of the Akron stories. In his book, which is now owned by one of my friends, Archie Towbridge, the first member in Detroit, writes, I write my story in the small hours of the morning, sometime in late December or early January, 1939, just ahead of the printer's deadline. I had been sober four months. The story says six months as due time was allowed for publication. My perspective was very limited and the story was unduly brief. Sixteen years later, I was asked to rewrite it for the first new edition. Archie also writes, To the best of my knowledge, this copy is one of the first hundred copies to be bound. The reason only one hundred were bound was that Works Publishing Company did not have any money to pay the printer! By the end of January, Bill wanted to rush the book into print. Then some one sounded a note of caution: What if the book contained errors? What if the book was offensive to the religious? So four hundred multilith loan copies were printed for evaluation. Comments were offered. Bill had written Alcoholics Anonymous on the cover page, but many in the New York area and more in the Akron area found this title unacceptable; the other title was The Way Out, which had become very popular. Other titles under consideration included: Empty Glass, Dry Frontiers, and Bill even briefly considered The Will W. Movement, but the choices came down to two: The Way Out, or Alcoholics Anonymous. So, Bill called Fitz Mahugh, who was in Washington, D.C., visiting family, and asked him to go to the Library of Congress and see how many books were already titled The Way Out. And if there were any named Alcoholics Anonymous. Fitz wired back saying there were twelve books titled The Way Out but none titled Alcoholics Anonymous. That settled it. No one wanted to have the thirteenth of anything. Actually the name Alcoholics Anonymous had appeared as early as July 15, 1938, in a letter from Bill to Dick Richardson, and according to a letter from Dr. Richards of Johns Hopkins on July 18,1938. Bill at the time was using the name as the working title of the book and the name of the fellowship. Comments came in from New Jersey. A psychiatrist, Dr. Howard, observed that the message of insanity and death so vividly portrayed in the book as consequences of alcoholism were so persuasive that no further force was necessary, thus the language was softened and A.A.'s debt to medicine deepened. From religion, Dr. Harry E. Fosdick returned his copy without criticism, a favorable book review, and encouraged Alcoholics Anonymous to release it as they wished. Morgan Ryan, recently out of Rockland Asylum, took the manuscript to the New York Archdiocesan committee on publications. According to Morgan, that committee had nothing but the best to say about AA and the book. They did ask just one small thing, that the last line of Bill's story be changed from Heaven to Utopia. Finally, the manuscript was completed and sent to Tom Uzzell, a professor at New York University for final editing. Dr. Uzzell was a past editor of Colliers Magazine, contributor to The Saturday Evening Post, and writer of several books. Among the books he had edited was The Good Earth, If I Had Four Apples, and many other best sellers. He was probably the top person in the business of preparing manuscripts for publication. In a letter to Hank, he said, I spent last evening with a manuscript, I knew, of course, what the document was, but upon reading additional chapters and surveying the job as a whole, I found myself deeply moved at times, full of amazement, almost incredibly, and during most of the reading I was extremely sympathetic. My feeling at the moment is that you should certainly hold on to the publication, and distribution of this volume if you can. It ought to go far and wide and handsome, and make those concerned a big profit. You have here an extremely urgent problem, you have a successful defiance of medicine, you have a religious story, you have a deeply human story, and lastly you have a whole flock of happy endings. I don't know what else you could want for an excellent book. I believe in it most emphatically. The whole book needs final shaping of a professional hand. But it is interesting that he ends the letter with, I understand better now the enthusiasm you revealed when you talked to me about this work, I thought you were exaggerating somewhat, but now I have joined the choir. They paid Dr.Uzzell $380. Finally, they were ready to go. They went up to see Mr. Blackwell at Cornwall Press. He said how many copies do you want? They said just print a few, say 5,000 copies. Blackwell said how much are you going to put down, they said well, maybe $500 on account. ________________________________________ Orig. question from (joeadams1950 at gmail.com) I with I had the memory I once had, but I was told that Parkhurst re-wrote several bits of other people's stories in the first edition, and that it caused some friction in the New York group. But I cannot remember the source of that tidbit. Perhaps someone here has the reference. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7153. . . . . . . . . . . . Red Road meetings From: jaxena77 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/10/2011 8:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Do any members have information on whether or not there is a distinction between a Red Road meeting and an AA meeting on reservations? I've heard that Red Road meetings are not AA meetings, but I also read an article in the Grapevine "The longhouse" that talks about the author's home group being The Red Road AA meeting. Are Red Road meetings a type of 12-step meeting that is distinct from AA or a common AA meeting name on some reservations? I am also looking for any info on the first meetings to take place on reservations in Northern America. I already have quite a bit of information on Maynard B. and Tall Man. I'm looking for older stories if possible. Thank you! Jackie B IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7154. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anne Smith: Mother of AA? From: kcb007_99 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2011 1:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dick B., The Oxford Group and Oxford Anonymous, rev. ed. (Kihei, HI: Paradise Research Publications, 1998), page 11, footnote 31 reviews evidence that Bill W. called Anne Smith a "founder" of A.A. and the "Mother of A.A." - - - - Message #7086 from (aalogsdon at aol.com) asked the question: In several of the postings Anne Smith is cited as the Mother of the first group in Akron. I have heard quoted that she was the Mother of AA. Is this quotation in print somewhere? Thanks. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7155. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anne Smith: Mother of AA? From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2011 3:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Baileygc23 and Charles Knapp - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) I am sure that the below is not the only instance of Bill W's making the statement, but it is a start. Bill W., The Language of the Heart, 353-54: Anne was the wife of Dr. Bob, cofounder of Alcoholics Anonymous. She was, quite literally, the mother of our first group, Akron Number One. Her wise and beautiful counsel to all, her insistence that the spiritual come before anything else, her unwavering support of Dr. Bob in all his works; all these were virtues which watered the uncertain seed that was to become A.A. . . . In the full sense of the word, she was one of the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous. - - - - From: Charles Knapp (cpknapp at yahoo.com) This is from the July 1949 Grapevine: Anne S. ANNE S. has taken her leave of us. She died on Wednesday June 1. To the hundreds who really knew her, this was a meaningful and moving event. With those who knew her not, I wish to share the inspiration which she gave to Lois and me. Anne was the wife of Dr. Bob, co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. She was, quite literally, the mother of our first Group, Akron No. One. HER wise and beautiful counsel to all, her insistence that the spiritual come before anything else, her unwavering support of Dr. Bob in all his works; all these were virtues which watered the uncertain seed that was to become A.A. Who but God could assess such a contribution? We can only say that it was priceless and magnificent. In the full sense of the word, she was one of the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous. Not a soul who knew Anne will say that she is really gone. Each knows that her abiding love and influence will live forever. And none knows better than Dr. Bob, Lois and I, who saw these things from the beginning. Nor do we think we shall never see her again. For, like nearly all our fellow A.A. members, we believe there is no death. She is only out of our sight and hearing for a little while. Bill W. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7156. . . . . . . . . . . . More problems keeping silkworth.net online From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2011 9:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Glenn Chesnut, Mitchell K., and Jim Myers ================================ (1) FROM GLENN CHESNUT Jim Myers has reported more problems keeping silkworth.net online. His server has raised his rates, because so many people are using his site. I am posting this for all the folks on the AAHistoryLovers because this is more than just the silkworth.net problem. The issue being raised is one that is beginning to have a major impact on AA history and archives in general. It is increasingly becoming clear that the best way to make important documents, photos, etc., available to historians and archivists is through online sites like silkworth.net. There seems to be much less censorship involved (so far anyway), and the material is made available where everyone without exception has access to it. Also, you don't have to travel halfway across the North American continent (or halfway around the world) to look at the material. They are also becoming recognized as the best way to make good state and local AA history accessible. But when these online archives become large enough, they become expensive to maintain. Not expensive AT ALL in comparison with maintaining an archives in a building with hard copies stored in file cabinets, but online archives aren't free. At any rate, I thought it important to keep everyone posted on what is happening. Glenn Chesnut, Moderator of the AAHistoryLovers Manager of the Hindsfoot.org website. ================================ (2) FROM MITCHELL K. Maybe opening up a different site just for MP3 downloads as they are data guzzlers. I might suggest speaking with the folks at XA-Speakers.org for ideas. I understand as alcoholics in recovery for the need to both address everything and be all things to all people but being all things to all people, not offending anyone, not scaring anyone away and kissing every boo boo has been the downfall of Alcoholics Anonymous (IMO). I think Silkworth has been the benchmark for a totally fair and unbiased viewpoint of AA history on the Net. NO ONE comes close. It's OK for one site to put together all the biased views in one place which Silkworth does quite well. Maybe it is time to diversify to different but linked sites. Unfortunately, if the PayPal donations cannot sustain unbiased reporting then the supported but biased sites will prevail. There are too many out there who say they offer freedom of choice but leave out the actual choice is the choice offered. Yes, you are offered a choice just as long as it is the choice believed by the people who offered the choice. Yes, you can believe whatever you want just as long as it matches what we believe. If people really want true freedom of information, maybe those who can afford to contribute more will. If not, we all know whose truth each wants us to believe. ================================ (3) FROM JIM MYERS From: Jim Myers (jim.myers56 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, February 6, 2011 Subject: Doteasy Account for silkworth.net to stay online Just wanted to let you know I ave run into a problem with my hosting provider (doteasy.com) for silkworth.net. It appears that silkworth.net is more popular than I expected. They have sent me an email stating that I must change my current service to an upgrade which is more than I can pay. You can read the details below. They expect for me to pay as much as $19.95 more per month? I am dumbfounded by their request. Last month, silkworth.net had more than 72,000 visitors and there has been as much mp3 downloads as 24 GB in two days. I am open for sugestions. The Pay Pal link is not doing very well, and I fear that doteasy.com may limit my current abilities as to what I can do or not do or post from silkworth.net. The current status as far as stats for silkworth.net for last month alone were 1,530,428 total hits and 1,251,709 total files and 283,444 total pages and 72,998 total visitors. I am not sure how to respond to their email (below) yet, and I am open to suggestions. Please advise me as what would be the best course of action to take. A little uneasy, Yours in service, Jim M, http://www.silkworth.net/ _______________________________________ From: Doteasy To: jim.myers56@yahoo.com Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 3:00 PM Hello James, It has come to our attention that your account ( silkworth.net ) used a lot of traffic with your MP3 download. Your account has used up 24GB of traffic in just 2 days. Please note that you are responsible for ensuring that your use of the service does not consume excessive system or network resources that disrupts the normal use of the service through, but not limited to, spawning multiple processes, consuming excessive amounts of memory, CPU or bandwidth usage. - http://www.doteasy.com/Terms/index.cfm?T=TAC#14 Also, please note that our shared hosting server is not meant to act as a file sharing/media streaming server: http://www.doteasy.com/Terms/index.cfm?T=TAC#5 We advise you to consider VPS or dedicated server. With VPS (Virtual Private Server) or Dedicated hosting, your server is dedicated to your needs, which will allow you to have more control, such as using cron jobs, or installing custom server software such as streaming media, etc. You can learn more about them at the following links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_private_server http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedicated_server You can refer to the following links for more details and pricing: http://in2net.com/VPSHosting/#package http://www.in2net.com/DedicatedServers/ Please let us know if you would like to upgrade to VPS or dedicated server and which plan you are interested in. Thank you. Regards, Philip Doteasy Customer Service IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7157. . . . . . . . . . . . The Broad Highway From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2011 3:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Bob S. (Charlottesville, Virginia) (bsdds at comcast.net) BIG BOOK VS. THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT I got this question about the "broad highway" from a friend of mine in Lubbock: In the Bible, the term "broad highway" is used in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. We are supposed to take the less used narrow path which leads to salvation instead of the broad path/highway leads to perdition (cf. Hank Williams, "Lost highway" at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcIgQWdWWag ). ======================================== THE USE OF THIS TERM IN THE BIBLE: See Matthew 7:12-14 in the Revised Standard Version "So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets. Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few." And in the King James Version (Authorized Version): "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." ======================================== But the AA Big Book refers to the road to sobriety and recovery as the "broad highway." ======================================== IN THE BIG BOOK: (p. 46) "Much to our relief, we discovered we did not need to consider another's conception of God. Our own conception, however inadequate, was sufficient to make the approach and to effect a contact with Him. As soon as we admitted the possible existence of a Creative Intelligence, a Spirit of the Universe underlying the totality of things, we began to be possessed of a new sense of power and direction, provided we took other simple steps. We found that God does not make too hard terms with those who seek Him. To us, the Realm of Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive; never exclusive or forbidding to those who earnestly seek. It is open, we believe, to all men." (p. 55) "We finally saw that faith in some kind of God was a part of our make-up, just as much as the feeling we have for a friend. Sometimes we had to search fearlessly, but He was there. He was as much a fact as we were. We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found. It was so with us. We can only clear the ground a bit. If our testimony helps sweep away prejudice, enables you to think honestly, encourages you to search diligently within yourself, then, if you wish, you can join us on the Broad Highway. With this attitude you cannot fail. The consciousness of your belief is sure to come to you." (p. 75) "We pocket our pride and go to it, illuminating every twist of character, every dark cranny of the past. Once we have taken this step, withholding nothing, we are delighted. We can look the world in the eye. We can be alone at perfect peace and ease. Our fears fall from us. We begin to feel the nearness of our Creator. We may have had certain spiritual beliefs, but now we begin to have a spiritual experience. The feeling that the drink problem has disappeared will often come strongly. We feel we are on the Broad Highway, walking hand in hand with the Spirit of the Universe." ======================================== Williams James referred to the "broad highway" in his book "The Meaning of Truth: A Sequel to 'Pragmatism.'" There is a book published in 1910, a romance novel, by Jeffery Farnol entitled The Broad Highway, and there is even a recovery website called the Broad Highway. But where did Bill Wilson and the first 100 come up with the terminology "the Broad Highway" ? ? ? Bob S. (Charlottesville, Virginia) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7158. . . . . . . . . . . . Emmet Fox''s death From: Steven . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2011 5:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know how Emmet Fox passed away? Steven - - - - From Glenn C. the moderator -- see this chapter in a Ph.D. thesis from South Africa: pp. 22-23 describe Fox's death (note also pp. 20-21). http://uir.unisa.ac.za/bitstream/handle/10500/2026/02chapter2.pdf;jsessionid =D02\ E1DD9FBEF011F8703EC080C32656D?sequence=2 [6] This little biography of Emmet Fox makes VERY fascinating reading. I recommend the whole piece very strongly to anyone who is interested in AA history. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7159. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Red Road meetings From: Tim S . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2011 2:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Tim S., gerrynmt, and Jim in Central Ohio - - - - From: "Tim S" (timschluter at email.com) Jackie B, The short answer is "Yes". Though many understand them as "a type of 12-step meeting that is distinct from AA", others understand them as "a common AA meeting name". The often spoken phrase "traveling the Red Road" refers to Native American spirituality and even more specifically to a deliberate return to (or incorporation of) traditional native values and practices. So if you were to hear me use that statement you would understand it as meaning the practice of traditional customs. The meeting may have a different format than what most people are accustomed to at off-reservation meetings. The Red Road to Well-briety often incorporates such traditional spiritual practices as smudging, totems, native language, high regard for traditional values. My brothers and I consider Red Road to be AA. If we are in the presence of someone who interprets it otherwise, then that is fine, we don't argue the point, we accept it and try to understand their perspective. The Twelve Steps are interpreted through the Medicine Wheel as opposed to the linear way they are presented at most AA meeting. There are many differences which I am more than willing to share with you if you wish additional detail. To a brother or sister from Turtle Island the practices are spiritually edifying. To one not familiar with native traditions and practices they would seem unusual. I encourage you to attend a Red Road meeting with an open mind, and should you choose to refer to one as "indian" don't be offended if in turn they refer to you as a "cowboy". Tim - - - - From: "gerrynmt" (traditionsway at yahoo.com) Jackie, Red Road meetings are not AA. They are a part of White Bison Inc. which is a private, non-profit organization that, like others, utilizes the twelve steps of AA. In their interpretation, they relate the steps to general Native American traditons. White Bison Inc. uses their own literature along with AA literature during their meetings. White Bison Inc. and the "Red Road of Wellbriety" have helped many people recover from alcoholism and other addictions, however, while many participants believe they are doing AA, they are not. - - - - From: Sober186@aol.com I don't know if this is the same Red Road to which you refer, but there is information on a Red Road Recovery movement here: http://milkmanscircle.net/Milkman%27s%20CircleD2/Templates/red_road.htm RED ROAD ~ A Return To The Circle (16 Steps of Empowerment) 1. We affirm we have the power to take charge of our lives and stop being dependent on substances or other people for our self-esteem and security. 2. We come to believe the Great Spirit awakens the healing wisdom within us when we open ourselves to that power. 3. We make a decision to become our authentic selves and trust in the healing power of the truth. 4. We examine our beliefs, addictions, and dependent behavior in the context of living in a hierarchal, patriarchal culture. 5. We share with another person and the universe all those things inside of us for which we feel shame and guilt. 6. We affirm and enjoy our strengths, talents, and creativity, striving not to hide these qualities to protect others' egos. 7. We become willing to let go of shame, guilt, and any behavior that keeps us from loving ourselves and others. 8. We make a list of people we have harmed and people who have harmed us and take steps to clear out negative energy by making amends and sharing our grievances in a respectful way. 9. We express love and gratitude to others, and increasingly appreciate the wonder of life and the blessings we do have. 10. We continue to trust our reality and daily affirm that we see what we see, we know what we know, and we feel what we feel. 11. We promptly acknowledge our mistakes and make amends when appropriate, but we do not say we are sorry for things we have not done, and we do not cover up, analyze, or take responsibility for the shortcomings of others. 12. We seek out situations, jobs, and people that affirm our intelligence, perceptions, and self-worth to avoid situations or people who are hurtful, harmful, or demeaning to us. 13. We take steps to heal our physical bodies, organize our lives, reduce stress, and have fun. 14. We seek to find our inward calling and develop the will and wisdom to follow it. 15. We accept the ups and downs of life as natural events that can be used as lessons for our growth. 16. We grow an awareness that we are inter-related with all living things and we contribute to restoring peace and balance on Mother Earth. Jim in Central Ohio _____________________________________________ --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "jaxena77" wrote: > > Do any members have information on whether or not there is a distinction between a Red Road meeting and an AA meeting on reservations? > > I've heard that Red Road meetings are not AA meetings, but I also read an article in the Grapevine "The longhouse" that talks about the author's home group being The Red Road AA meeting. > > Are Red Road meetings a type of 12-step meeting that is distinct from AA or a common AA meeting name on some reservations? > > I am also looking for any info on the first meetings to take place on reservations in Northern America. I already have quite a bit of information on Maynard B. and Tall Man. I'm looking for older stories if possible. > > Thank you! > Jackie B > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7160. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Are there any Wikipedia editors here who know about the Washingtonians? From: A from near Maldon, England, . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/12/2011 6:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII That warning below is good reading BUT whether we like it or not Wikipedia is the first line of enquiry nowadays for many millions of people. The editors go to considerable lengths to root out flawed entries and there are ways for anyone to complain. I know whenever I see something wrong or missing I update it if I am technically capable or at worst alert someone else that what is written is wrong, so if there is stuff out there that give a false impression we can do our bit by taking action, that was the purpose of my original posting, I hope some here have checked over there and from their knowledge decided whether correction is needed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washingtonian_movement +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Lawyer" wrote: > > A WARNING ABOUT USING WIKIPEDIA uncritically as a source of information about Alcoholics Anonymous history, from Jay Lawyer: > > That is the trouble with using Wikipedia as any kind of source for information. Anybody can write anything they want and unless somebody comes along to change it, there it is for people to take as Gospel. > We of Alcoholics Anonymous have enough inaccurate info already, don't need to add to it. > > Jay > > ___________________________________________ > > Original Message: A complaint about the Wikipedia article on the Washingtonians said: > > The article is fundamentally inaccurate -- even the names of the six founders are partly inaccurate (taken from a non-authoritative 1878 secondary source). It doesn't need references; it needs a thorough rewrite. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7161. . . . . . . . . . . . Indiana history websites From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2011 1:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here are AA History websites for Indiana localities, plus, a Big Book History Site: Richmond, Indy, State of Indiana history websites, plus a Big Book AA History Website: http://www.area23aa.org/a/view/Main/Richmond Web address for Richmond, Indiana, AA History (50 pages) http://www.area23aa.org/a/view/Main/Richmond Web address for Richmond, Indiana, AA History. (50 pages) http://www.aamuncie.org/files/Indianapolis_AA_History_July_2009.pdf Web address for Indianapolis AA History (40 pages) http://www.aamuncie.org/files/History_of_AA_in_Indiana.pdf History of Indiana AA (9.99 MB) (40 pages) (entire state) http://www.aabibliography.com/historybb.htm Web address for Big Book History (21 pages) (The Richmond, IN, links may take a few minutes to open.) Bob S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7162. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Indiana history websites From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2011 4:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For more on Indiana A.A. history also see: How A.A. Came to Indiana -- http://hindsfoot.org/Nhome.html ================================ "J. D. Holmes and the First A.A. Group in Indiana: Evansville, April 23, 1940" -- J. D. was from the original Akron A.A. group, the tenth person to get sober in A.A. "Early Evansville A.A." ================================ "Doherty Sheerin and the Founding of A.A. in Indianapolis: October 28, 1940" Neil S. (Fishers IN), "History of Indianapolis A.A." "Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe) and the Golden Books" ================================ "The Third A.A. Group Started in Indiana: Fort Wayne, December 1941" John Barleycorn, "A Nun's Story: Sister Ruth Finds God in the A.A. Meetings" "I'm not a Nice Guy," memorial for Stanley "Skeets" Richards ================================ "The St. Joseph River Valley Region: South Bend, February 22, 1943" -- South Bend, Mishawaka, Elkhart, and Goshen The Factory Owner & the Convict The St. Louis Gambler & the Railroad Man Ken M., "Drunks Are a Mess" "Brownie's and the Dignitaries Sympathy Groups" ================================ "The Books the Good Old-Timers Read" ================================ "The A.A. Prison Group Founded in 1944 at the Indiana State Prison at Michigan City" ================================ "Early Black A.A. along the Chicago-Gary-South Bend Axis" "The Wisdom of Goshen Bill" ================================ "Adventure of Recovery: The Beginnings of A.A. in Anderson, June 1943-February 9, 1947" ================================ Richmond 1945-46 -- The story began when Bob B., a paint store owner in Richmond, got sober by visiting a business associate in Philadelphia, a man named Jim Burwell who had gotten sober in 1938 and had started A.A. in that city. Jim's story in the Big Book is called "The Vicious Cycle" (it is on page 219 in the current 4th edition). ================================ "Kosciusko County: September 30, 1946" ================================ "Gary, Indiana: John Shaifer's Lead" ================================ "A Brief History of A.A. in Delaware County in Indiana" by Bruce C. (Muncie, Indiana) ================================ "The Lafayette area: January 1948" -- the home of Purdue University, on the banks of the Wabash river ================================ "The First A.A. Group in Rensselaer: early 1948" ================================ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7163. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Emmet Fox''s death From: Charlie C . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2011 11:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The NY Times ran an obituary on 8/18/1951. In brief it noted that Fox had died the week previous, while in Paris. At the time of his death he was pastor of the Church of the Healing Christ in NYC. Fox is described as having come to the U.S. from England in 1930, where in his younger life he had been an electrical engineer. His original church met in rooms in several hotels, including the Waldorf-Astoria. His talks as the head of what was then called the "First Church of Divine Science" drew large crowds in the 1930s. The obituary also notes that his book "The sermon on the mount: the key to success in life, and The Lord's prayer: an interpretation"(a popular and influential title in early AA) was a popular success, running through a number of editions. Charlie Cowling IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7164. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Broad Highway From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2011 10:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Tom H. (Texoma Coalition) and John B. (jax760) - - - - See Message #6087 from "Texoma Coalition" (t4texas at cox.net) Re: The Broad Highway on page 55 of the Big Book Hi, What I understand this term to mean is that A.A. is an ll-encompassing fellowship where people of all different kinds of beliefs gather to deal with the problem of alcoholism. Bill is throwing out a term that appears, at least a first glance, to be a contradiction of what Christ is quoted as saying in the Bible regarding the gate and way to life being narrow while the gate and way to destruction is broad. But that's not what Bill is implying here. What he is saying is that the road to a life of recovery is indeed broad enough for us all to travel it regardless of what kind of title we might confer on God as we understand Him. >>> SERMON ON THE MOUNT (Matthew 7:13-14) >>> (King James Version) >>> "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is >>> the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth >>> to destruction, and many there be which go >>> in thereat: because strait is the gate, and >>> narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, >>> and few there be that find it." >>> >>> "strait" = (archaic) narrow, tight, >>> constricted, strict >>> BIG BOOK PAGE 55: >>> "... deep down in every man, woman, and child, >>> is the fundamental idea of God .... We found >>> the Great Reality deep down within us. .... >>> If our testimony ... encourages you to search >>> diligently within yourself, then, if you wish, >>> you can join us on the Broad Highway." In other words, we're all engulfed in the same problem, but how we work out a solution through working the steps is not so narrowed down that we can't travel the broad road to recovery together in spite of our differing understanding of a Higher Power. The 12 steps are configured in such a way that they lead us to different levels of spiritual progress as we work them to the best of our ability. A.A. doesn't claim to provide a path to perfection. We strive for spiritual progress rather than perfection. And when we reach Step 11, we will have advanced far enough down the broad highway to spiritual progress that we will make a practice of improving our conscious contact with God as we understand Him. In other words, there's plenty of room for everybody in A.A., provided of course that they have a desire to stay sober. So when you think about it, you can see that A.A.'s path to recovery as outlined in the Big Book is without a doubt a Broad Highway in every sense. No one is excluded; all are welcomed and afforded the opportunity to grow along spiritual lines regardless of what their personal concept of a Higher Power might happen to be. Hope that answers your question, and please note that I'm only voicing my personal understanding of the term you asked about. I'm not trying to preach. Sincerely, Tom H. Recovering Alcoholic DOS 12-31-1979 - - - - From John B. (jax760 at yahoo.com) The writer wrote: "In the Bible, the term "broad highway" is used in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount." The phrase as quoted does not appear in the Bible. You can see post 6088 for the text and useage from Farnol and decide for yourself if it fits. God Bless John B _________________________________________ Matthew 7:12-14 in the King James Version (Authorized Version): "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." _________________________________________ The Broad Highway by Jeffery Farnol (1878-1952) _________________________________________ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7165. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Broad Highway From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2011 7:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Much as we know that some references in our literature come, anecdotally, from the Bible, many phrases come from other sources, or are simply a manner of speech of the time period, to express an idea. I believe this is the case with the phrases used by the Big Book author here, "broad" & "Broad Highway". The term obviously taken in the context it is found, means that the program is big enough for everyone & anyone . . . ROOM enough to hold all who travel it. Unlimited in scope. The journey path that is prescribed is wide enough for ALL alcoholics, should they choose to travel it. There is no litmus test as one might find in most organized religions. Our society does not deny any traveler access. One difficulty we have when we approach our literature from the standpoint of a theologian, we begin to find that pieces do not fit, do not match up. Because, they are not meant to. Our Book is not an interpretation of scriptures, not a study in systematic theology, not a hermeneutical treatise. It would fail every test in those areas. Gratefully. Jon Markle/BA Sacred Studies/MA Agency Counseling Retired Therapist & SA Counseling Specialty: Dual Diagnosis/SPMI/COD & DBT-S HS Practitioner, Advisor & Case Consultation Raleigh, NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7166. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online From: A from near Maldon, England, . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/12/2011 5:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The message was just posted noting that Jim Myers has reported more problems keeping silkworth.net online. His server has raised his rates, because so many people are using his site. - - - - I am grateful this need has been drawn to my attention by a friend even before I read this posting. Once one has a PayPal account giving financial support from anywhere in the world only takes a few Mouse Clicks. It would be helpful to know how much is needed but if all reading this send $10 or $20 if they can afford it it must surely help in the short term. Then when we know how the fund stands and how much has been received we can work out how much more we each might send if we can afford it. I hope this is a link to the PayPal donation page for Silkworth.net https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_flow&SESSION=hcnstKzfOHRHmpKkr Qxns\ Vq8ejJniqfwTN11bno5WdfLUKFKzC3GZl2fMKu&dispatch=5885d80a13c0db1f8e263663d3fa ee8d\ f1d2b5c147af55b8d54f2944c97d2a2a I think it is possible to open account from that link, if one wants to investigate before here is a link to PayPal itself https://www.paypal.com/uk/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_account The money is needed to be paid to this email address. jim.myers56@yahoo.com (jim.myers56 at yahoo.com) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ You might like to consider this from:- http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/study_aahistory.html "Why Study A.A. History? ======================= This article is written by nationally recognized historian and oft-quoted Alcoholics Anonymous archivist Mitchell K. Why study, or for that matter, even discuss the history of Alcoholics Anonymous? What difference would it make? How could it affect how we live and work our own individual recovery? Who cares? In a quote attributed to Carl Sandburg, he summed it up when he wrote; "Whenever a civilization or society declines (or perishes) there is always one condition present - they forgot where they came from." This quote, often used by Frank M., Archivist for AA General Services gives a warning to present and future generations of AA members to "Keep It Green." The Washingtonians, The Oxford Group and others forgot where they came from. They watered-down and made changes to their respective movements which eventually led to their demise. AA members could take notice and begin to learn their roots. The history of AA can be both educational and fascinating and help in making the recovery process a fruitful one. Bill W. stated in 1940 that of those entering AA, 50 percent never drank again. 25 percent remained sober throughout their lives after experiencing some early difficulties and the remaining 25 percent could not be accounted for. Bill stated that 75 percent of AA members back then got well - they recovered. Group records indicate that in Cleveland, Ohio there was a 93 percent success rate for recovery in the early 1940's. Could these astounding figures be attributed to the fact that only low-bottom alcoholics came into AA? Could they be attributed to the lack of multiple addictions? We think not. Early records indicate that though a great number of early members were considered as low-bottom, there were many who entered AA before losing everything. Both Dr. Bob and Bill had difficulties with drugs other than alcohol. Bill struggled with these problems until his death in 1971." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7167. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online From: Jim Myers . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/12/2011 2:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you AAHistoryLovers for the post about the new problem facing silkworth.net! Just to keep you good folks up to date, I am working with doteasy.com to meet their demands to keep silkworth.net online. I have temporarily disabled all mp3 and avi files on silkworth.net until I can find an affordable solution, hoping that doteasy.com will allow me to stay online till I find a solution. I have sent them a message similar to this one in hopes that I get a positive response from them. I am researching online to see what may help in resolving the current hosting problem. The last message I received from them, they indicated silkworth.net needs its own dedicated server due to the tremendous amount of traffic. This research may take a little time but I am confident that a solution will be found. Monetarily, I am not in a good position to do what doteasy.com mentioned I should do, so I am searching the internet for alternatives. The ideal solution would be that I purchase my own server and host silkworth.net from that server here in my home. At the moment, I am not sure how that should be set up and I am not sure how that would effect my service with my Time Warner Road Runner high speed service. I thank all of you for your continued support! Yours in service, Jim M, http://www.silkworth.net/ _______________________________________ ORIGINAL MESSAGE FROM MY WEB SERVER: From: Doteasy To: jim.myers56@yahoo.com Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 3:00 PM Hello James, It has come to our attention that your account ( silkworth.net ) used a lot of traffic with your MP3 download. Your account has used up 24GB of traffic in just 2 days. Please note that you are responsible for ensuring that your use of the service does not consume excessive system or network resources that disrupts the normal use of the service through, but not limited to, spawning multiple processes, consuming excessive amounts of memory, CPU or bandwidth usage. - http://www.doteasy.com/Terms/index.cfm?T=TAC#14 Also, please note that our shared hosting server is not meant to act as a file sharing/media streaming server: http://www.doteasy.com/Terms/index.cfm?T=TAC#5 We advise you to consider VPS or dedicated server. With VPS (Virtual Private Server) or Dedicated hosting, your server is dedicated to your needs, which will allow you to have more control, such as using cron jobs, or installing custom server software such as streaming media, etc. You can learn more about them at the following links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_private_server http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedicated_server You can refer to the following links for more details and pricing: http://in2net.com/VPSHosting/#package http://www.in2net.com/DedicatedServers/ Please let us know if you would like to upgrade to VPS or dedicated server and which plan you are interested in. Thank you. Regards, Philip Doteasy Customer Service IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7168. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online From: Jim Myers . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2011 5:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It was requested that I post the operating cost on silkworth.net. I have done so. Currently to date, this is what you will find on the index page as of this email date which you can visit periodically to see all updates, changes and current status of silkworth.net. Current operating costs for silkworth.net are as follows: Domain name renewal once every five years. Cost: approximately $100.00. Next renewal date: December 14th, 2015. I am awaiting to hear from doteasy.com to find out the cost per year to host silkworth.net on its own dedicated server. Under my current unlimited hosting package with doteasy.com, it was costing $119.40 per year by the end of March. I expect that will at least double to meet the needs of silkworth.net. Current donations to date: $226.81 USD. I am very grateful to all of you for your support of silkworth.net. More will be revealed Jim M. (You can visit http://www.silkworth.net/ to view the updates and changes as they are revealed to me.) Yours in service, Jim M, http://www.silkworth.net/ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7169. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: More problems keeping silkworth.net online From: Al Welch . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2011 10:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Al Welch, mrpetesplace, Pete K. (greatcir), Clyde G., Charles Knapp, and Bent Christensen - - - - From: "Al Welch" (welch at a-1associates.com) Tell Jim there are MANY servers available at a modest price. For instance, I have used Blue Host for a number of years at $97.00 per year with unlimited use. It has all of the features including 24/7 help line. - - - - From: "mrpetesplace" (peter at aastuff.com) It seems that the issue is with the MP3. I know that Mike F. at recoveryspeakers.org was having to use a dedicated server, you may ask him about it too. If you have multiple domains. Ex. silkworth.net, silkworthfile.net, silkworthdata.com etc. I could host on my package to offset some of the traffic. You would be set up to take care of it. If you had others that would be willing to do it as well, it might help. As for the upgrade, I would look into other companies as well to see what they do. I use godaddy and about to move some sites to ipage. I would be using both hostings for different types of sites. I would be keeping AAStuff.com and WhenManListens.com at my Dovewind package. You may want to look into both of them as well. You might be surprised on some deals you might be able to find. In addition to godaddy and ipage, you may want to look into hostgater and fatcow. I looked into those ones as well but this was like 6 months ago and I wasn't looking into a dedicated server. Also, I don't know if streaming using more band width than a simple downloaded file, but if it does, maybe you can eliminate streaming and go with just downloads and they can play them after it is loaded. Anyway, If you don't have multiple domains, we still might be able to work something out. Peter - - - - From: pete kopcsak (greatcir at gmail.com) Can one charge for MP3 downloads and have some cash left over to pay the rest of the bill? - - - - From: "CloydG" (cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net) Why not pass the basket, 7th Tradition? Clyde G. - - - - From: Charles Knapp (cpknapp at yahoo.com) My only question is what is the cost to keep this site going? I have made donations over the last couple of years. Maybe what I thought was a good donation was not even a drop in the bucket. Has been my experience when AA members are given a need in dollar amounts the need is usually met. Thanks Charles from Wisconsin - - - - From: "bent_christensen5" (bent_christensen5 at yahoo.com) With that kind if trafic I think it is only fair that doteasy.com suggest that you get a better hosting solution. Besides the limit the site would benefit from an upgrade to because the downtime would be less and the vistors would get a faster reply and download. Since I am living in Denmark uptill now I haven't support silkworth.net but I would be happy to do. I do understand that $ 20 a month is a lot of money for you, but together we should easily be able to gather the money together. Normally I use paypal but as far as I understand you have some problems with that, Jim? Best regards Bent IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7170. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: keeping silkworth.net online -- use torrent files? From: Tim S . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2011 2:51:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Perhaps torrents would solve the problem. The you only need to host a very small torrent file and the community would then host the files and share the traffic among many. ____________________________________________ From Glenn C. the moderator: WHAT IS A TORRENT FILE? see http://ask-leo.com/whats_a_torrent.html What is a torrent file and can it be broken down to smaller files and recorded to CDs/DVDs? Torrents, typically ending in ".torrent", are control files for the peer-to-peer file sharing technology called BitTorrent. It's actually pretty cool technology that really just boils down to another way to download files. So really, you just use .torrent files to download other files. BitTorrent is a distributed file distribution technology. Yes, "distributed distribution". When you download a file using BitTorrent, the file is actually broken up into chunk that your BitTorrent client program then downloads and reassembles into the final file as the pieces arrive. To over-simplify, what makes it interesting are two things: The different chunks you download can all be coming from different machines. A BitTorrent client will connect to many other BitTorrent clients and download several chunks at once, in random order. In the long run this makes the protocol fairly efficient, and very nicely scalable - the more BitTorrent clients that are serving up a given file, the faster other clients can download it. As you start collecting chunks of the file, your BitTorrent client will start making those chunks available for downloading to other BitTorrent clients, and will become a part of the peer-to-peer file distribution network. The ".torrent" file is simply the bootstrap for this whole process. You download that normally, for example in your web browser, and then it is read by your BitTorrent client. It has the information that the BitTorrent client then uses to begin to locate other BitTorrent clients that are serving up the file you're interested in. "Torrent" is sometimes used to refer to the file being shared using BitTorrent, but a ".torrent" file is a specific file with specific information that is used to bootstrap the file download. Note I haven't talked at all about what kinds of files are actually being downloaded. That's because the answer is "any". Typically the types of files being shared using BitTorrent are large - audio files, video files and programs. But just saying "a torrent" doesn't tell you what it is or what you can do with it. Let's get concrete. Let's say you've discovered that some "Public Domain Movie" is available via a torrent. You download the ".torrent" file, and open it in your BitTorrent client. It then goes out to the internet, locates other BitTorrent clients that are serving up that file, and begins downloading all the various chunks until it has a complete copy of the file. When it's all done, you'll end up with something like a "PublicDomainMovie.avi" file. Or ".mpg", ".mov" or something else. What you then do with that file is up to you. Yep, you could burn that file to a CD or DVD, but that's all something you would do after it's downloaded, and has nothing to do with the fact that you got it via BitTorrent. I don't have a tremendous amount of experience with BitTorrent clients, so I can't really recommend one over the other, but I have used Azureus successfully, and it seems to be one of the more popular BitTorrent clients. I will warn you that all of the BitTorrent clients I've seen to date are still in the "geeky" stage, meaning that they sort of assume you know what you're doing to begin with. It's not a steep learning curve, but it will seem pretty obscure at first. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7171. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Are there any Wikipedia editors here who know about the Washingtonians? From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2011 6:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On the dangers of looking something up on wikipedia first, and stopping there and assuming that this information is accurate, and not reading anything else: Just because a "source" is commonly used "first" does not mean that it is accurate or best. Millions of people use Facebook too! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7172. . . . . . . . . . . . Early members from Southern California and meetings in jails/prisons From: ckbudnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2011 1:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings! I'm posting this with the hopes that some people may information or leads. Along with a couple of friends, we have been researching the transmission of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous during the late 40's and 50's to straight addicts and those who had "dual problems" (alcohol and other drugs). We have also been researching AA's response to the growing number of straight addicts and dual problem members who were joining Alcoholics Anonymous. We've discovered that the expansion of twelfth step work to jails and prisons by some early members played a major role in facilitating the increased interest in Alcoholics Anonymous by those who were not "simon-pure alcoholics" (to borrow and expression we've read). One early member of AA in Southern California who was a pioneer in this area was a man named Jack Prohs. I believe that he passed away in 2002 with over 50 years of sobriety. We are interested in finding out if anyone knew him or knew if he had children who we might be able to interview. There is an article in the LA Times (1985) where Jack Prohs talks about the passing of Beatrice Jorgensen. "Prohs said Mrs. Jorgensen worked at first as a counselor to women alcoholics in the County Jail, then, with the help of officials in the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, started Friendly House." Does anyone know if Beatrice Jorgensen was previously Beatrice Follett? Another person of great interest to us is a woman named Betty Thom, along with her husband Larry Thom. Betty was very involved in corresponding with prison based AA groups throughout the country as well as carrying the message into jails, prisons and institutions. She and her husband moved to Santa Monica and her husband Larry became very involved with the Bay Area AA Rehabilitation Center. Does anyone know anything about Betty and Larry? Thanks so much. Chris B. Raleigh, NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7173. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online From: Alex H . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2011 6:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On 2/12/2011 1:48 AM, Jim Myers wrote: > > > The ideal solution would be that I purchase my own server and host > silkworth.net from that server here in my home. At the moment, I am > not sure how that should be set up and I am not sure how that would > effect my service with my Time Warner Road Runner high speed service. > Without getting too technical... having a home server will not solve your bandwidth issue. It will only change the person who will be yelling at you for chewing up all the bandwidth. However, if you can offload the audio and video to some podcast audio place or YouTube, you can run your server at home using your domain name for the server and link to the audio/video at those other places. They will take the bandwidth hit. Not you. If you are not familiar with UNIX at the console level, forget about setting up your own server. The home server set up I am experimenting with is at... http://refounder1.gets-it.net/wordpress 1. Roadrunner ... full home package. Fastest they have. (Not the Signature package. I don't need my toes manicured too. :-)) 2. New router... Net Gear WNDR 3400, a mid-range, router with "Dynamic DNS" and port-forwarding. 4. I paid $15 for a simple yearly account with http://www.DynDNS.org to get a domain name to point to my home server. You pay more for additional services. There are free accounts available but they are a pain. Pay for the real services. 5. Dell Computer (5 years old and unused) with 160 Gig hard drive. 6. Debian or Ubuntu Linux. (I prefer Debian but Ubuntu is easier to set up and there is more help online.) Obviously there is more to setting this up than I am saying here but remember that the high-speed bandwidth they advertise on TV is the DOWNLOAD speed... NOT the UPLOAD speed that you will need. Your users will experience a slow server when getting audio/video files from your home server because your home upload bandwidth is limited (probably throttled to discourage customers from doing the very thing you are trying to do right now). If your goal is to disseminate audio/video for historical purposes to academia you might offer short audio samples and then sell a CD to them at cost or set up a store at PayPal and charge some minimum to cover the bandwidth costs. In the old days any research professor would limit the requests for data by requiring those requesting the data to pay for copying costs. If academia is who you are serving, then they ought to be familiar with this. Alex H. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7174. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early members from Southern California and meetings in jails/prisons From: John Moore . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2011 10:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII *"Prohs said Mrs. Jorgensen worked at first as a counselor to women alcoholics in the County Jail, then, with the help of officials in the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, started Friendly House." Here is a personal anecdote about Bea Jorgensen and the Friendly House if you all don't mind. I was a newcomer in 1972, living in Laguna Beach Cal. I was down on my luck and making $2 per hour as a house painter. I was the most inept painter on the crew but I was getting by somehow. What few possessions I still had when I got sober were gone. Apartment, furniture, nice job, car, money...I lost it all, mainly due to a big case of sober self will run riot. I got a new sponsor and started into the steps in earnest. I hoped to some day I might get another car, but calling for rides and hitching lifts after meetings was getting me where I needed to go. As I moved through the steps my life began to calm down. One day my sponsor told me that he heard the Friendly House in Los Angeles was getting a new car and that the old one, a Chevy Nova, was for sale. Price $200. I knew I could put the money together and I asked him if he would drive me up to L.A. The Friendly House was a big old house somewhere near downtown and was the first woman's halfway house in L.A. They told me Bea Jorgensen was the person I should see; she was the manager or something. I figured I would check out the car, kick the tires, look under the hood, find a few things that were wrong, and haggle a better price. I was wrong. Bea asked me into her office, sat me down, and started to ask me questions. She began grilling me in a nice way, as to what step was I working, who was my sponsor, what home group did I belong to, how many meetings was I going to, how long since my last drink... her questions went on and on. What the heck does all this have to do with buying a car, I wondered. Somewhere in the process, my plan of haggling price went out the window. I was the one being inspected, not the car. It began to dawn on me that she wanted to know if I good enough for their car, and not the other way around. At the end of the interview she leaned back in her chair and told me ok, I had passed muster, and I could buy the car, it would be $200. Did I want to see it? By that point I was thoroughly buffaloed. This had not gone the way I planned. I told Bea, no, not necessary, I will take it. I gave her the money and she handed me the keys and told me where it was parked. That was the last I saw of Bea and the first I saw of the car. She made a big impression on me and taught me something that day about trust. We AA's march to the tune of a different drummer. Her knowing whether I was walking the walk was more important than money, and strangely enough, it kinda made sense to me. That little Chevy Nova opened many doors for me. (Bald tires were a problem but at a meeting I ran into someone who had a gas station and he sold used tires. He gave me a set for only $15 each and got me fixed up) A good job came my way; a man who was sober for 15 years was going to train a salesman and looking for someone on the program. I went to see him and he hired me. He taught me a new trade and my little Chevy Nova took me around to my customers and I prospered. I went on to enjoy a business career spanning 30 years from that humble beginning. I heard afterward that that Bea's story was being made for TV and that she was becoming famous or something, but from my meeting with her, I knew she was not a "Hollywood" type. Bea was a woman of principle, a sober AA member doing service for her fellow woman as best she could. There is a lot to admire about Beatrice Jorgensen. Yours in AA, John M Early Risers Group Burlington Vermont US DOS Dec 7 1971 * *On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 1:47 PM, ckbudnick wrote: * > > * * > > *Greetings! > > I'm posting this with the hopes that some people may information or leads. > * * > > Along with a couple of friends, we have been researching the transmission > of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous during the late 40's and 50's to > straight addicts and those who had "dual problems" (alcohol and other > drugs). We have also been researching AA's response to the growing number of > straight addicts and dual problem members who were joining Alcoholics > Anonymous.* * > > We've discovered that the expansion of twelfth step work to jails and > prisons by some early members played a major role in facilitating the > increased interest in Alcoholics Anonymous by those who were not "simon-pure > alcoholics" (to borrow and expression we've read).* * > > One early member of AA in Southern California who was a pioneer in this > area was a man named Jack Prohs. I believe that he passed away in 2002 with > over 50 years of sobriety. We are interested in finding out if anyone knew > him or knew if he had children who we might be able to interview.* * > > There is an article in the LA Times (1985) where Jack Prohs talks about the > passing of Beatrice Jorgensen.* * > > "Prohs said Mrs. Jorgensen worked at first as a counselor to women > alcoholics in the County Jail, then, with the help of officials in the Los > Angeles County Sheriff's Department, started Friendly House."* * > > Does anyone know if Beatrice Jorgensen was previously Beatrice Follett?* * > > Another person of great interest to us is a woman named Betty Thom, along > with her husband Larry Thom. Betty was very involved in corresponding with > prison based AA groups throughout the country as well as carrying the > message into jails, prisons and institutions. She and her husband moved to > Santa Monica and her husband Larry became very involved with the Bay Area AA > Rehabilitation Center.* * > > Does anyone know anything about Betty and Larry? * * > > Thanks so much.* * > > Chris B.* * > Raleigh, NC > > * > * ** > * > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7175. . . . . . . . . . . . Book sale to keep silkworth.net online -- 2nd ed. Big Book From: bikergaryg@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2011 11:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I will place a 2nd edition big book with a new replacement dust-jacket on E-BAY and donate those funds to silkworth.net. E-bay does not charge me a fee if I am donating the funds. this is a great site and needs to stay open. You can also donate using pay-pal, I just did and it is very easy: go to http://silkworth.net/ and you will find the gold Pay Pal seal and Donate button at the bottom of the left hand column. Hope this will help some. bikergaryg New Jersey IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7176. . . . . . . . . . . . AA History Weekend Flyer From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2011 10:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS HISTORY WEEKEND IV “THE EARLY YEARS” (East Dorset, Vermont is also having its 250-year anniversary celebration & history tour this same weekend) with John B. from South Orange NJ & Barefoot Bill from West Milford NJ Both Past History & Archives Committee Chairpersons of Area 44 (North NJ) August 19 – 21, 2011 At The Wilson House (where Bill W. was born) 378 Village Street East Dorset, Vermont 05253 John B. has been overly passionate about AA history for a long time. He will be doing a presentation on “The First 40 Members of AA” and a picture presentation called “The Men Who Came to Believe” about William James, Carl Jung & Dr. Silkworth. Barefoot Bill has been studying and collecting AA history since 1994. He will be doing a presentation called “Bill W.’s Younger Years” and a picture presentation on the people, places & things associated with AA history mentioned in the Big Book. Saturday afternoon Bonnie L. & Barefoot Bill will also be doing a 2 & 1/2 hour sightseeing grand tour of all the AA history spots in & around East Dorset, Vermont Schedule: Friday night 8/20/10 9:00 to 10:00pm – AA history movie (popcorn provided) Saturday morning 8/21/10 9:00 to 10:20am – Bill W.’s Younger Years Saturday morning 8/21/10 10:40 to 11:55am – The Men Who Came to Believe Saturday afternoon 8/21/10 1:00 to 3:30pm – A sightseeing grand tour of all the AA history spots in & around East Dorset VT by Bonnie L. & Barefoot Bill Saturday night 8/21/10 9:00 to 10:00pm – AA history movie (popcorn provided) Sunday morning 8/22/10 9:00 to 10:20am – The First 40 Members of AA Sunday morning 8/22/10 10:40 to 11:55am – The AA History Mentioned in the Big Book For weekend and overnight reservations please call the Wilson House at 802-362-5524. For more information please call Barefoot Bill at 201-232-8749 (cell). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7177. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online From: Allan Gengler . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2011 4:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I host a few sites through Fatcow and they have a good deal right now. http://www.fatcow.com/ Allan J. Gengler ____________________________________________ http://www.allangengler.com http://www.flickr.com/photos/algengler/ agengler@wk.net agengler@allangengler.com agengler@gmail.com Mac OS X Leopard Rulez Be an organ donor, tell a friend. Yeshua is the man IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7178. . . . . . . . . . . . Updated current operating costs of silkworth.net From: Jim Myers . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2011 1:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The following is somewhat what you will find on the index page of silkworth.net about its current problem it is facing: ------------------------------------------- Current operating costs for silkworth.net are as follows: Domain name renewal once every five years. Cost: approximately $100.00. Next renewal date: December 14th, 2015. Response from doteasy.com 02/13/11 to find out the cost per year to host silkworth.net on a dedicated server or VPSHosting - keeping in mind, in January, 350.4 Gigabytes of traffic to this site. These are the only options doteasy.com are offering to fully restore silkworth.net: >>> http://in2net.com/VPSHosting/#package (Virtual Private Server) or >>> http://www.in2net.com/DedicatedServers/, silkworth.net having its own server (their partner company). I am also looking into a few other options. Current donations through Pay Pal to date: $456.89 USD. I also received a grant for $3,000 from the "Serving The Spirit Foundation". Even though silkworth.net is not a group, the grant meets the requirements of A.A.'s 7th Tradition. I am very grateful to all of you for your support of silkworth.net. More will be revealed....~Jim M. ------------------------------------------- I have until the end of March to resolve the current hosting problem. I am also very grateful for the feedback and great ideas I have received from some of you that has helped me in the decision process - which includes the elimination of a couple of ideas I was looking into. Yours in service, Jim M, silkworth.net ============================================= "Let us also remember to guard that erring member - the tongue, and if we must use it, let's use it with kindness and consideration and tolerance." -Dr. Bob, Sunday, July 30, 1950 http://silkworth.net/aahistory/drbob_farewell.html ============================================= IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7179. . . . . . . . . . . . Clarence S and Fort Knox From: joe . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2011 6:31:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am currently stationed at Fort Knox, and as an AA history lover, I am interested in Clarence's time here at Fort Knox for officer training recorded in "How It Worked" chapter 6. The letter from the Louisville AA office invited him to the meeting at 3rd and Kentucky St. The distance he would have had to travel to the meeting from Fort Knox was equivalent to going from Cleveland to Akron. I am curious to know, did Clarence ever write back, attend the group, or otherwise interact with AA in Kentucky during his training? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7180. . . . . . . . . . . . Who carried the message of AA into Italy? From: victor v . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2011 11:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Who carried the A.A. message into Italy? And when? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7181. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who carried the message of AA into Italy? From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2011 10:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Victor wrote: Who carried the A.A. message into Italy? And when? From unpublished AA World History Manuscript (1985) A.A. was also very slow to get started among the Italians. Like Paris, Rome had an English-speaking group in the early 1960's, which has continued until the present. But repeated attempts to reach the Italians met with failure except for a few bi-lingual individuals. Then, in the early '70's, a member of the Italian parliament now known as Carlo #1, a big, imposing man, was such a bad drunk that he was in danger of losing his post. He heard of the English-speaking A.A. group in Rome and began attending meetings-even though he did not understand English. The message was carried to him through an interpreter. Carlo absorbed enough of the program to get sober, stay sober, and carry the message to other Italian alcoholics. This had to be done verbally, since there was no literature in Italian. One day in March 1975, a doctor called on Carlo #1 to speak with a patient in the hospital who had alcoholic neuritis so severely he was confined to a wheelchair and was feared near the end. The patient was Roberto C., who was to become the father of Italian A.A. Roberto-the only son of the Helen Hayes of Italian theater, film and TV, and her producer-husband, who were constantly on the road-was reared by an uncle in a villa in Florence and educated in private schools. After serving in the war, he became a noted journalist, living for eight years as a correspondent in the U.S., where he became completely fluent in English. He also progressed into raging, desperate alcoholism, which got him deported back to Italy. There, despite periodic flashes of success on newspapers and national television, he continued to sink into sickness and eventual repeated hospitalization, which left him with a noticeable limp today. As soon as he was able after meeting Carlo, Roberto began attending the English-speaking A.A. group. With a consuming desire to stop drinking and as at home in English as in Italian, Roberto literally immersed himself in Alcoholics Anonymous. He read, re - read and absorbed every word of the Big Book and the other literature. With a deep spiritual base to his fractured life, he was awed by A.A.'s message of the need for spiritual change. And he began forthwith to carry the message to Italian alcoholics. When he had been sober less than two years, Roberto's renowned but aged mother became ill. Roberto, who had squandered a sizeable amount of his mother's money during his drinking, now felt he owed her great amends, so he went with her to a family villa in the country, where he remained at her side until she died. During these two years of isolation and devotion, Roberto says, "What did I have to do, but translate the Big Book into Italian?" With the help of other fledgling A.A.'s, Roberto then spearheaded an effort to publish the Italian Big Book (with financial assistance from A.A. World Services). He brought the first copy with him to the International Convention in New Orleans in 1980, where he presented it to Lois W. In his brief presentation talk, he announced proudly that Italy then had seven A.A. groups. Upon his return, he went through his native country like a Johnny Appleseed, sowing A.A. groups everywhere. In Rome, Carlo E., a wealthy businessman, joined up and used his own money to underwrite the translating and publishing of all the A.A. literature into Italian and the opening of a General Service Office to augment the intergroup which had already been established. A General Service Board was formed in October 1979, and after a great deal of controversy and several false starts, the first General Service Conference was held in 1984. By 1985, with appropriate gratitude for his part in getting Italian A.A. off to a flying start, Carlo E. was persuaded to halt his personal financial support and make the groups more reliant on their own contributions. In the autumn of 1985, Italian A.A. held its own convention to celebrate the 50th Anniversary of A.A.'s founding. About 700 spirited A.A.'s and their families turned up for the gathering, which was held in the Adriatic resort town of Rimini, where they heard Bob P., G.S.O. general manager, with Roberto C. translating the talk. At that time, there were over 100 A.A. groups in Italy, with new ones forming almost every day, and membership totaled over 4,000. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7182. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Clarence S and Fort Knox From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2011 10:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I took a quick look at the Cleveland Centeral Bulletins and in the December 1942 issue a letter from Clarence Snyder was published. He stated that he had very little personal time but that he had been asked to speak at a meeting in Louisville and had been granted special leave for the occasion. He also mentioned that the Louisville AA's had been bringing fellows to Ft. Knox to have him speak to them on a personal basis. Hope this helps. Jim B. - - - - Original message: >I am currently stationed at Fort Knox, and as an AA history lover, I am >interested in Clarence's time here at Fort Knox for officer training >recorded in "How It Worked" chapter 6. The letter from the Louisville AA >office invited him to the meeting at 3rd and Kentucky St. The distance he >would have had to travel to the meeting from Fort Knox was equivalent to >going from Cleveland to Akron. > I am curious to know, did Clarence ever write back, attend the group, or > otherwise interact with AA in Kentucky during his training? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7183. . . . . . . . . . . . Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 From: The Wilsons . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2011 4:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the book The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, Tradition 4 talks about the setup of an AA service complex: a treatment center that would provide financial aid, medical care, recovery help etc. It also talks about 61 rules that were drawn up. A fellow at a meeting the other night said that he recalled that at one time he thought he saw a list of 108 different rules that came from various groups. Was the AA treatment center really started somewhere? Where was it at? So we have the list of 61 rules? Bob Wilson Port Orchard, Washington IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7184. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2011 3:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Rule 62 and Wombley's Clapboard Factory Twelve Steps & Twelve Traditions pp. 147-149: Rule No. 62, "Don't take yourself too damn seriously." ______________________________ Message 2324 from "Mark Morse" (markm at eauclaire.lib.wi.us) Wombley's clapboard factory Regarding the "explosion in Wombley's Clapboard Factory," there was an Edgar Wombley, Chemist, in Chittenden County, Vermont, before the turn of the century. The Mad River Valley, which housed such early clapboard mills as that of the Ward family first in Duxbury, then in Moretwown, ran through Chittenden county. ______________________________ Message 1610 from Jim Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) I had a discussion with Ozzie Lepper who runs the Wison House in East Dorset and he claims that the foundations of the clapboard factory can still be seen. ______________________________ The full story, pp. 147-149 from the chapter in the Twelve Steps & Twelve Traditions on the Fourth Tradition ("Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole"): Every group had the right to be wrong. When A.A. was still young, lots of eager groups were forming. In a town we'll call Middleton, a real crackerjack had started up. The townspeople were as hot as firecrackers about it. Stargazing, the elders dreamed of innovations. They figured the town needed a great big alcoholic center, a kind of pilot plant A.A. groups could duplicate everywhere. Beginning on the ground floor there would be a club; in the second story they would sober up drunks and hand them currency for the back debts; the third deck would house and educational project - quite controversial, of course. In imagination the gleaming center was to go up several stories more, but three would do for a start. This would all take a lot of money - other people's money. Believe it or not, wealthy townsfolk bought the idea. There were, though, a few conservative dissenters among the alcoholics. they wrote the Foundation*, A.A.'s headquarters in New York, wanting to know about this sort of streamlining. They understood that the elders, just to nail things down good, were about to apply to the Foundation for a charter. These few were disturbed and skeptical. [*In 1954, the name of the Alcoholic Foundation, Inc., was changed to the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous, Inc., and the Foundation office is now the General Service Office.] Of course, there was a promoter in the deal - a super-promoter. By his eloquence he allayed all fears, despite advice from the Foundation that it could issue no charter, and that ventures which mixed an A.A. group with medication and education had come to sticky ends elsewhere. To make things safer, the promoter organized three corporations and became president of them all. Freshly painted, the new center shone. The warmth of it all spread through the town. Soon things began to hum. to insure foolproof, continuous operation, sixty-one rules and regulations were adopted. But alas, this bright scene was not long in darkening. Confusion replaced serenity. It was found that some drunks yearned for education, but doubted if they were alcoholics. The personality defects of others could be cured maybe with a loan. Some were club-minded, but it was just a question of taking care of the lonely heart. Sometimes the swarming applicants would go for all three floors. Some would start at the top and come through to the bottom, becoming club members; others started in the club, pitched a binge, were hospitalized, then graduated to education on the third floor. It was a beehive of activity, all right, but unlike a beehive, it was confusion compounded. An A.A. group, as such, simply couldn't handle this sort of project. All too late that was discovered. Then came the inevitable explosion - something like that day the boiler burst in Wombley's Clapboard Factory. A chill chokedamp of fear and frustration fell over the group. When that lifted, a wonderful thing had happened. The head promoter wrote the Foundation office. He said he wished he'd paid attention to A.A. experience. Then he did something else that was to become an A.A. classic. It all went on a little card about golf-score size. The cover read: "Middleton Group #1. Rule #62." Once the card was unfolded, a single pungent sentence leaped to the eye: "Don't take yourself too damn seriously." Thus it was that under Tradition Four an A.A. group had exercised its right to be wrong. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7185. . . . . . . . . . . . Parkhurst relatives From: Corey . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2011 6:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If you know of any of Hank Parkhurst's relatives or are one would you have them contact me asap? We need your help. THX! Corey F. (erb2b at yahoo.com) THX! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7186. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe Quinn From: WendiT . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2011 7:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello, I am doing an article on Joe Quinn for an alano club newsletter. Joe Quinn got sober in Los Angeles on December 21st, 1952, and passed away on July 25th 2000. Folks are telling me Joe spoke all over the country and was known all over. I have had a great opportunity to talk to many whose lives he touched. I thought I would ask if there are any oldtimers our there with additional stories. Thank you, Wendi (wenditurner at gmail.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7187. . . . . . . . . . . . Hiding a bad motive under a pretended good motive From: Aalogsdon . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2011 1:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Need help identifying source for the quotation which goes something like "hiding a bad motive under a good motive." Appreciate any help. (aalogsdon at aol.com) - - - - From Glenn C. the moderator (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) The first passage that springs to my mind is the one at the end of the chapter on Step 10 in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (page 94): "As we glance down the debit side of the day's ledger, we should carefully examine our motives in each thought or act that appears to be wrong. In most cases our motives won't be hard to see and understand. When prideful, angry, jealous, anxious, or fearful, we acted accordingly, and that was that. Here we need only recognize that we did act or think badly, try to visualize how we might have done better, and resolve with God's help to carry these lessons over into tomorrow, making, of course, any amends still neglected." "But in other instances only the closest scrutiny will reveal what our true motives were. There are cases where our ancient enemy, rationalization, has stepped in and has justified conduct which was really wrong. The temptation here is to imagine that we had good motives and reasons when we really didn't." "We 'constructively criticized' someone who needed it, when our real motive was to win a useless argument. Or, the person concerned not being present, we thought we were helping others to understand him, when in actuality our true motive was to feel superior by pulling him down. We sometimes hurt those we love because they need to be 'taught a lesson,' when we really want to punish. We were depressed and complained we felt bad, when in fact we were mainly asking for sympathy and attention. This odd trait of mind and emotion, this perverse wish to hide a bad motive underneath a good one, permeates human affairs from top to bottom." Can anyone in the AAHistoryLovers come up with another possible source for this quote? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7188. . . . . . . . . . . . Keeping everyone up to date: maintaining silkworth.net online From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2011 10:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There are many Hosting providers who offer packages similar to Fatcow, including my current provider, doteasy.com. Here's the problem. Their "unlimited" packages do offer the unlimited bandwidth, but you have to read the fine print. With Fatcow their "unlimited" means up to SMALL businesses. With my hosting provider their "unlimited" means SMALL to MEDIUM businesses. My provider doteasy.com says silkworth.net is considered, if you read between the lines as they have already reminded me twice, LARGER THAN A MEDIUM medium business. Don't get me wrong here, we all know silkworth.net is not a business. The site primarily archives much AA history material (along with other related information) made available to the general public free of charge, and is self-supporting. And it is my hopes that more folks will send in more AA history material making silkworth.net the largest data base of AA history material in the world made available publicly via the world wide web - which is a big plus for any AA member or for folks who are just interested, seeking, researching etc... etc... such information. Since I have gotten enough donations to do so, I am probably going to have silkworth.net moved to a Private Virtual Server at a cost of $468.00 per year, which allows up to 500 Gigabytes of traffic in any given month. Last month, silkworth.net got 350.4 Gigabytes of traffic. Of course, this threw up red flags with my hosting provider. I can live with this and you may see additional changes in the site in the future. Today, I opened a bank account in the name of "silkworth.net" so if anyone wishes to donate by check, they can make it out to silkworth.net - not to me or any other individual. At the moment this account only requires one signature. Other signatures can be added. So, for the moment, the account will only have the name "Silkworth.net." Once the LLC License has been purchased (pretty cheap), the changes will be made with the account to show the account as, for example: Silkworth.net LLC (I believe cheaper than going the route of Company or Incorporated). Doing this much is also possible due to a grant that silkworth.net received in the amount of $3,000.00, in which the bank account was created at Wachovia (all soon to be known as Wells Fargo - in almost all of these United States, with the exception of about seven States, I think). I also made sure the grant met all requirements of AA's Tradition 7. Just keeping you up to date..... Yours in service, Jim M. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7189. . . . . . . . . . . . Rule 62 and Wombley''s Clapboard Factory From: ron.fulkerson@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2011 4:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The old foundation to Wombley's Clapboard Factory still exists and can be seen behind the post office in East Dorset ... ronf IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7190. . . . . . . . . . . . Living amends From: Mike . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/21/2011 8:26:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've heard AA'ers talk about 'living amends', but I've never read about it in our literature. Does anyone know what it means or if it has any substantive roots in AA? Thanks, Mike IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7191. . . . . . . . . . . . changing the 12 steps From: amelialoomis . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2011 6:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know of the 12-steps being changed in our history? This could be individual meetings, regions, or meeting directory policies. After all this time there must be some documentation of the struggles on this. Thanks, Amelia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7192. . . . . . . . . . . . More on the doctoral thesis about Emmet Fox From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2011 7:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We already referred to the little biography of Emmet Fox in Chapter 2 of this doctoral thesis. The entire thesis can be read at: http://uir.unisa.ac.za/handle/10500/2026 "The Religious Thought of Emmet Fox in the Context of the New Thought Movement" by Maré Venter submitted for the degree of Doctor of Literature and Philosophy in the subject Religious Studies at the University of South Africa under the supervision of Prof. J. S. Krüger 30 November 2004 Abstract: The religious significance of Emmet Fox (1886-1951), a pioneer in the New Thought movement, is the focus of this study. The relevance of Fox's religious thought will be determined in reference to and in the context of contemporary theorist Ken Wilber's theoretical framework of integral hermeneutics. On the basis of Fox's primary writings, biographical information, the ideas and philosophy of modern New Thought scholars and Wilber's literature, Fox's religious thought was interpreted and evaluated. Aspects of Fox's belief, such as creative mind, scientific prayer, meditation and healing, concepts such as God, Jesus Christ, death, reincarnation, karma and end times, as well as his method of biblical exegesis are discussed. It becomes apparent that Emmet Fox, preacher and teacher, had never intended to provide a scientific or academic structural doctrine in which to deliver his teaching. His non-conformist, simple, yet well thought-through beliefs, which include esoteric, eastern and universal truths, focused on the fundamental truths that are necessary for humanity's evolutionary development. This approach made Fox's teaching valuable to his audience of the time, a changing American consciousness, as well as appropriate to a transformational South Africa, where it is relevant in bridging the various cultures, languages, and religious beliefs within a continuously changing spiritually minded population, and most of all, beneficial to every person's inner spiritual journey towards ultimate enlightenment. Fox's underlying religious belief is that `the thought is the thing' and this endorses the whole of the New Thought teaching, which states that `whatever the mind can conceive and believe, it can achieve' or `be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind'. Probably the most remarkable feature of his religious thinking is his popular allegorical interpretation of the Bible, which he interprets spiritually. It is apparent that there is an affinity between the religious thought of Emmet Fox and that of Wilber. Although the intent of this study is not to compare these scholars, it is interesting and valuable to Fox's interpretation that they advocate a similar underlying belief in the holistic Kosmos and the importance of having an integral vision. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7194. . . . . . . . . . . . How many copies of 12-and-12 published? From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2011 4:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From D. B. in England: How many copies of the 12-and-12 have been published? I know the Big Book is over 30 million world wide but I cannot find out about the 12-and-12. I did email GSO New York some weeks ago but they have not answered. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7195. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Living amends From: Phillip Baker . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2011 6:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Philip Baker, John Wikelius, Bob Gordon, Amelia, and Dov W. - - - - From: Phillip Baker (phillip at freewolf.net) Hey Mike, What Living Amends is about is changing behavior moving forward. The big book implies about living amends in numerous sentences in the section on amends: "There is a long period of reconstruction ahead" "The spiritual life is not a theory we have to live it" "There may be some wrongs we can never fully right" So I may have been unfaithful in a relationship. The other person does not want to talk with me, or I cannot find them, or they have died. A living amends in that case would be making sure I am never unfaithful in another relationship again. I.e. changing the behavior. There is a risk in this however: there is an easy road that is not really an amends. And a great many people in program try to use that "out." In the above case maybe I never really actually do the work to locate the person, and just say "ah, I will do a living amends." It is my character defects just popping up trying to help me avoid a painful experience of confronting my demons. I strongly recommend and believe that I am not in a place to determine if I should be making a living amends. That is for a determination to be made with my spiritual guide after talking with them about it and exhausting other possibilities. But by and large I always believe something more direct can be done, either through a dead letter, surrogate amends, or something else. A living amends is almost always a last resort, unless in making amends to someone that is what they ask of me. I remember hearing one speaker talk about stealing a bible from a priest. When he went back to make amends to him, the priest told him that to make amends he should read it every day. So he agreed, his living amends then was to read the bible every day. Blessed Be Phillip - - - - From: john wikelius (justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com) I have equated it to paying forward. There are those who I cannot make a direct amend to because of time, death etc. By showing kindness and compassion to those I encounter today I feel that is making a living amends. Also I feel that "Actions speak louder than words" thus showing folks of my sincerety is much more profitable that trying to convince them verbally. - - - - From: bob gordon (bob34g at gmail.com) Even though I live in Canada an old timer explained it once to me this way. The US Constitution has amendments, but when they changed the practice of politics they did not say sorry. The 19th Amendment grants women the vote it doesn't say sorry we didn't allow you to vote back in the old days. In the same way he told me amends were living changed behaviour not simply apologizing for past misdeeds _______________________ Bob Gordon 34 North Street, Guelph, ON CANADA N1H 8N5 SMS 5193626709 - - - - From: intuited (intuited at earthlink.net) When I do a living amends I am functioning in guidance to make like the very best for the other person(s) that I have harmed. Apologizing or showing that I was aware and sorry isn't enough. I need to be impeccable in my present and future behavior. Amelia - - - - From: Dov W (dovwcom at gmail.com) Searching through Grapevine archives "living amends" is referred to not so much as an additional requirement but as a potential alternative for direct amends in articles since 1978. Overeater's Anonymous mentions the idea in a recent piece of literature on sponsorship: page 11, lines 404-405 <> page 12, lines 461-465 <> page 12, lines 466-467 <> http://www.oa.org/pdfs/sponsoring_12_steps_2010.pdf My sponsor told me about living amends he made to his 1 year old son. The Big Book on page 83 says "We ought to sit down with the family and frankly analyze the past as we now see it, being very careful not to criticize them." But my sponsor's one year old son would not have understood any analysis of the past, frank or otherwise. So my sponsor would use whatever spare time he could find to share with his son and be the best Dad he could be. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7196. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2011 7:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Windows servers could handle this as well. The only benefit of the Linux operating systems is that they are free. A Windows 7 professional provides the IIS server, FTP and email capabilities. The problem is bandwidth as you mentioned. For audio and video files they will eat up bandwidth quickly and virtually all home connections available will not be able to handle them reasonably. That is the reason hosting services are best because they provide a much higher level of bandwidth than home connections do. Hopefully there are several members on this group who are helping with small contributions to PayPal. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7197. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2011 2:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Update: Silkworth.net is being moved, at the request of my previous hosting provider (doteasy.com), to its partner company In2net.com, to handle the traffic, including Audio and Video files. The site will be fully restored within the next few days - give or take. I am in agreement with Jim -- Silkworth.net is in the process of being moved to a Virtual Private Server to handle the traffic to silkworth.net. After much research and my own lack of experience, Shakey Mike, Mitchell K, and I felt this was the best course of action. Within the next few days, on the index page of silkworth.net, operational costs for silkworth.net, as well as Pay Pal donations to date, how the funds were used, as well as the renewal dates for the domain name and hosting services, will be posted at all times. For all of you who have supported silkworth.net with your generous Pay Pal donations and other means, we -- Mike, Mitch and myself -- express much gratitude to you for your continued support of silkworth.net. Make no mistake about it, it could not have been done without you. Yours in service, Jim M - - - - From: James Bliss Subject: Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 17, 2011, 7:16 AM Windows servers could handle this as well. The only benefit of the Linux operating systems is that they are free. A Windows 7 professional provides the IIS server, FTP and email capabilities. The problem is bandwidth as you mentioned. For audio and video files they will eat up bandwidth quickly and virtually all home connections available will not be able to handle them reasonably. That is the reason hosting services are best because they provide a much higher level of bandwidth than home connections do. Hopefully there are several members on this group who are helping with small contributions to PayPal. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7198. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Joe Quinn From: Dougbert . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2011 7:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Dougbert, Shakey Mike, and John Moore - - - - From: Dougbert (dougbert8 at yahoo.com) Hi Wendy, For five years, I was a regular at Joe Quinn's Thurday night book study in Laguna Beach. Joe was a crusader for the Paradoxes. You will need a second edition to understand his passion about the Paradoxes. You cannot write about Joe Quinn without understanding why he was so passionate about the Paradoxes. The Professor and the Paradox starts on page 341 (second edition): 1. We surrender to Win 2. We give it away to keep it 3. We suffer to get well 4. We die to live Although Dr Paul, addict/alcoholic started the acceptance craze from page 417, I think A.A. did a great disservice to the Fellowship for replacing The Professor and the Paradox with Dr. Paul's story. But I understand that A.A. was attempting to be all things to all people to increase membership, but Joe Quinn would tell you, A.A. is for alcoholics! I will not buy a new edition until we get back to our roots of pure alcoholism. In Fellowship, Doug - - - - From: Shakey Mike (shakey1aa at yahoo.com) There are hundreds of thousands. That is why local archives are so important to preserving our fellowship. We need to document their individual AA story and their AA service involvement. Yours in Service Shakey Mike Gwirtz Hardcore Group See you in Montana in September (15th National Archives Workshop) - - - - From: John Moore (contact.johnmoore at gmail.com) Hi Wendi I am sending to your email address a brief memoir written by my good buddy Vaun I. in California. Vaun talks about Joe Q who 12 stepped him, in a story he wrote for the Orange County AA publication The Lifeline. I am also sending to you via email a copy of the poem "Touch of the Master's Hand". Joe recited it by heart at the end of every talk he gave. I always found it stirring. I will write up my own recollections for you, Wendi, and get to you this week. All the best, John Moore South Burlington, Vermont - - - - The Touch of the Master's Hand It was battered and scarred, And the auctioneer thought it hardly worth his while To waste his time on the old violin, but he held it up with a smile. "What am I bid, good people", he cried, "Who starts the bidding for me?" "One dollar, one dollar, Do I hear two?" "Two dollars, who makes it three?" "Three dollars once, three dollars twice, going for three," But, No, From the room far back a gray bearded man Came forward and picked up the bow, Then wiping the dust from the old violin And tightening up the strings, He played a melody, pure and sweet As sweet as the angel sings. The music ceased and the auctioneer With a voice that was quiet and low, Said "What now am I bid for this old violin?" As he held it aloft with its' bow. "One thousand, one thousand, Do I hear two?" "Two thousand, Who makes it three?" "Three thousand once, three thousand twice, Going and gone", said he. The audience cheered, But some of them cried, "We just don't understand." "What changed its' worth?" Swift came the reply. "The Touch of the Masters Hand." And many a man with life out of tune All battered with bourbon and gin Is auctioned cheap to a thoughtless crowd Much like that old violin A mess of pottage, a glass of wine, A game and he travels on. He is going once, he is going twice, He is going and almost gone. But the Master comes, And the foolish crowd never can quite understand, The worth of a soul and the change that is wrought By the Touch of the Masters' Hand. -- Myra Brooks Welch _____________________________ Message #7186 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7186 Fri Feb 18, 2011 From (wenditurner at gmail.com) Hello, I am doing an article on Joe Quinn for an alano club newsletter. Joe Quinn got sober in Los Angeles on December 21st, 1952, and passed away on July 25th 2000. Folks are telling me Joe spoke all over the country and was known all over. I have had a great opportunity to talk to many whose lives he touched. I thought I would ask if there are any oldtimers our there with additional stories. Thank you, Wendi IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7199. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: changing the 12 steps -- Big Book vs. 12-and-12 From: mg2131 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2011 12:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The description of HOW WE WORK the 12 steps was changed when the 12 & 12 was written. I work the steps from the Big Book, I haven't worked them from the 12 & 12. However, I have read the 12 & 12 and to me, the differences that immediately pop to mind (without having it in front of me to check) are that step 1 is different in the 12 & 12, and step 4 is pretty radically different as well. So the change in how they are done, what actions are taken, would date to the 12&12, at least, as it can be tracked with written documentation. I feel like this was a pretty garbled response, but maybe it can give you a starting point. Jen IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7200. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: changing the 12 steps From: intuited . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2011 12:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Amelia (intuited), Allan Gengler, paddymur, Rob M. (hjfree), and Bill Lash (barefootbill) - - - - From: intuited (intuited at earthlink.net) I apologize. I could have been clearer about my question on changing the steps. After the Big Book was published were there ongoing disagreements about the wording in the steps? Did some meetings change them, and if so, how was this handled by local intergroups or GSO? Did the General Service Conference develop any policy to deal with local groups who might change them? I am aware of two groups who have significantly revised steps and I am curious about the history of the phenomenon. Hope this is clearer. Thanks, Amelia - - - - From: "Allan Gengler" (agengler at wk.net) Steps 3, 7, 8 and 12 were changed from the original manuscript. Is that what you mean? - - - - From: "paddymur" (paddymur at yahoo.com) Amelia-- They changed the 12th Step from "having had a Spiritual experience ..." to read "having had a Spiritual awakening..." The feeling was that not everyone would have and 'experience' like Bill W. did. Most of us get it gradually. --Pat - - - - From: "hjfree2001" (hjfree at fuse.net) I was at a meeting in a suburb north of Baltimore, when they read the 12 steps they substituted substances for alcohol in step 1, I was so disheartened I almost left. I have been to meetings in 45 of the 50 states and it is a comfort to walk in, be able reminisce with a group of strangers and have the same readings, everywhere but that one. Blessed2BSober rob m - - - - From: Bill Lash (barefootbill at optonline.net) Here is a current scary example of changing the Steps: http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Warning_Non_AA_Groups_Infilt rati\ ng_AA.pdf [7] Just Love, Barefoot Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7201. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: changing the 12 steps From: Norman Gin . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2011 11:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Norman Gin and Dougbert - - - - From: Norman Gin (ncgin at swbell.net) I'm not sure if this addresses your question, but I recently met a man who is active in Native American Indian GSO http://www.naigso-aa.org/index.htm The history of NAIGSO, meeting formats, as well as " The Indian Twelve Steps - Walking the Red Road" and other information can be found under "Site Map" Norm - - - - From: Dougbert (dougbert8 at yahoo.com) Amelia, Try http://www.aa-freethinkers.org -- they have rewriten the Steps at http://www.aa-freethinkers.org/steps2.shtml In Fellowship, Doug AGNOSTIC 12 STEPS 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable. 2. Came to believe and to accept that we needed strengths beyond our awareness and resources to restore us to sanity. 3. Made a decision to entrust our will and our lives to the care of the collective wisdom and resources of those who have searched before us. 4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. 5. Admitted to ourselves without reservation, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. 6. Were ready to accept help in letting go of all our defects of character. 7. With humility and openness sought to eliminate our shortcomings. 8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. 10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it. 11. Sought through meditation to improve our spiritual awareness and our understanding of the AA way of life and to discover the power to carry out that way of life. 12. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. ______________________________ Message #7191 Wed Feb 23, 2011 from "amelialoomis" (intuited at earthlink.net) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7191 Does anyone know of the 12-steps being changed in our history? This could be individual meetings, regions, or meeting directory policies. After all this time there must be some documentation of the struggles on this. Thanks, Amelia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7202. . . . . . . . . . . . Changes in steps or traditions effectively forbidden since 1976 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2011 4:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Since 1976, the wording of the twelve steps cannot be changed without consulting all the registered AA groups worldwide, asking them to respond in writing. At least three quarters of those responding must approve the change before it can be made. See "ArtSheehan" Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005 As Arthur puts it: "The Conference Advisory Action makes any change whatsoever to the Steps, Traditions, Concepts and Warranties a virtual impossibility (even so much as adding or removing a comma)." See also Message #5700 from "Arthur S" "3/4 of the registered groups permission" applies to the Steps, Traditions and Article 12 of the Permanent Conference Charter (i.e. the 6 "Warranties" which are also Concept 12) per advisory action of the 1976 Conference (which also approved the 3rd edition Big Book). - - - - A further comment from Glenn C: I would like to add that the interpretation of what the twelve steps and twelve traditions mean cannot be done by narrow word chopping and pseudo-logical arguments. They have to be interpreted in terms of the historical precedents which were set back in the early AA period. So for example, it is illegitimate to try to argue that, since the steps referred to "God as we understood Him," everyone in AA had to use the word "God" at all times, and that no one in AA was allowed even to use a term like "Higher Power," let alone be an atheist or agnostic. The reason why this was not valid was because the historical tradition records that the words "as we understood Him" were inserted to allow the early AA member who was an atheist to remain a member of the group. And similar ground rules apply to the wording of the Twelve Traditions. What specific kinds of things were actually regarded as anonymity breaks in earliest AA history? We must look at the actual examples of things that were forbidden, BUT ALSO things that nobody worried about. What was meant by a "promoter" back during that period (remembering the Rule 62 story)? Or in other words, in the historical context of that period, "attraction rather than promotion" was not a rule forbidding AA members from getting articles about AA put in their local newspapers and that sort of thing (as long as pictures of their faces and their last names were kept out of it, of course!) What specific things happened which Tradition Six was directed against? (In this case, it was things like Bill W. and Dr. Bob's names being put on the letterhead of Marty Mann's National Council on Alcoholism as official supporters of her group.) Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) P.S. But to answer another part of Amelia's question, what can actually be done to an individual AA group which tries to re-word one of the twelve steps? The worst sanction that could be applied would be to remove the list of that group's meetings from the local intergroup published meeting schedule. And personally, I've never known that to be done to an AA group. In AA, we DO NOT burn people at the stake, or chop off their heads in the town square, or hold Salem-type witch trials! Nor -- my own personal opinion here -- do sensible AA people stand around conducting nit-picking arguments over things like how many angels can stand on the head of a pin, or trying to invent dozens of new rules about exactly how you are allowed to introduce yourself at a meeting, or whether an AA conference can accept a dollar (to help pay for their coffee) from Al-Anons who are also attending, and that sort of thing. This last paragraph is just me though! - - - - CHANGES TO STEP TWELVE: See also Message 2258 from Jim Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) Changes to the Big Book 1st Edition - 2nd Printing: >> P72-L03, Spiritual Experience to Awakening. >> Added footnote "see Appendix II", p35, 38, 72. >> Added Appendix II - Spiritual Experience, p399. - - - - CHANGES TO STEP TWELVE: The series of changes in the wording of Step 12: From: "ArtSheehan" Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005 Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Changing "those" to "these" in 12th step wording In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing of the 1st edition Big Book. The term "spiritual experience" was changed to "spiritual awakening" and the term "as the result of these steps" was changed to "as the result of those steps." An appendix titled "Spiritual Experience" was also added to the Big Book in the 2nd printing of the 1st edition. This was done because many members thought they had to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most spiritual experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James called the "educational variety." There is a very brief mention of the Step 12 wording change from "experience" to "awakening" in "AA Comes of Age" in the chapter "Religion Looks at Alcoholics Anonymous" by Father Ed Dowling (pg 256). Outside of it, I have been unable to find any further references to the changes in AA literature. In 1956, the wording of Step 12 changed again in the 2nd printing of the 2nd edition Big Book. The term "as the result of those steps" was restored to its original form of "as the result of these steps." The 1976 General Service Conference approved publication of the 3rd edition Big Book. The 1976 Conference also expanded a 1955 provision of the Conference Charter to specify that any change to the Steps, Traditions or Concepts and 6 Warranties of Article 12 of the General Service Conference Charter, would require written approval of 75% of the AA Groups worldwide. The Conference Advisory Action makes any change whatsoever to the Steps, Traditions, Concepts and Warranties a virtual impossibility (even so much as adding or removing a comma). Cheers Arthur - - - - Message 3677 from "ArtSheehan" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) Sept. 4, 2006 There were a number of significant changes made to the 2nd printing of the 1st edition Big Book: In March 1941, in the 2nd printing, the wording of Step Twelve changed. The term "spiritual experience" was changed to "spiritual awakening" and "as the result of these steps" was changed to "as the result of those steps." The story "Lone Endeavor" (of Pat C from CA, ghost written by Ruth Hock) was removed. Appendix II "Spiritual Experience" was added. Many members thought they had to have a sudden, spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most spiritual experiences developed slowly over time and were of the "educational variety." William James, by the way did not explicitly use the term "educational variety" in his 1902 book titled "The Varieties of Religious Experience - A Study In Human Nature." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7203. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2011 11:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII How much of the story of the AA treatment center and Wombley's Clapboard Factory is factual? Who was the super promoter, what town did this happen in and what happened to the building? It seems likely that Bill was talking about a clapboard factory in the generic sense, but what about the three story building and rule 62? I apologize if I sound daft, but Bill seems to occasionally take liberties. Is this an example? I did find this: http://chipsontheweb.net/memchips/wombleys_clapboard.pdf Chuck IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7204. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2011 9:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the late 90's I attended an Archives Workshop held at the "Alanon Association" club in Newark, NJ. (This name is a contraction of alcoholics Anonymous. The Al-anon Fellowship had not been founded yet.) This building had been purchased and opened as a Clubhouse in the early 40's. (One of the first--it was a big deal.) As I recall, it had 3 floors -- one with restaurant/catering facilities, one with a bowling alley -- and of course, meeting rooms. It was said that this was the model AA complex talked about in Tradition 4. Could some North Jersey member corroborate/correct this info? North Jersey has GREAT Archives. Saw the actual "Rule 62" card displayed there, as well as many fliers for events with Bill W. in attendance. In service, Cindy Miller IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7205. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Changes in steps or traditions effectively forbidden since 1976 From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2011 5:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn, Since Conference Actions aren't binding on future Conferences, I assume the Conference could always revoke the 75% group approval rule for changing the Steps and Traditions. It's not like the U.S. Constitution, where an Amendment is forever, unless it's repealed by another Amendment or by a Constitutional Convention. John Lee Pittsburgh IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7206. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alanon, Al-Anon, and Alano From: Art Boudreault . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/3/2011 1:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Cindy said: "Workshop held at the 'Alanon Association' club in Newark, NJ. (This name is a contraction of alcoholics Anonymous. The Al-anon Fellowship had not been founded yet.)" As a matter of history, when Lois W. proposed using the word Alanon, Bill suggested the dash (-) to differentiate these from the A.A. "Alanon" associations. He then wrote to the A.A. Alanon associations and asked them to drop the last "n," creating the A.A. "Alano clubs" which we know today. Art Boudreault IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7207. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alanon, Al-Anon, and Alano From: Ken Ring . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/4/2011 12:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What is the source of this information about where the term "Alano" club came from? - - - - Message #7204 from Cindy Miller (cm53 at earthlink.net) In the late 90's I attended an Archives Workshop held at the "Alanon Association" club in Newark, NJ. (This name is a contraction of alcoholics Anonymous. The Al-anon Fellowship had not been founded yet.) Message #7206 from "Art Boudreault" (artb at netwiz.net) Cindy said: "Workshop held at the 'Alanon Association' club in Newark, NJ. (This name is a contraction of alcoholics Anonymous. The Al-anon Fellowship had not been founded yet.)" As a matter of history, when Lois W. proposed using the word Alanon, Bill suggested the dash (-) to differentiate these from the A.A. "Alanon" associations. He then wrote to the A.A. Alanon associations and asked them to drop the last "n," creating the A.A. "Alano clubs" which we know today. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7208. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 From: MattD . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/5/2011 4:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In an interview with Tom P. — who had worked as an editor on the manuscript for the 12 & 12 — he said Rule 62 was referring to Hazelden. Matt D. - - - - A question from GC the moderator: was Hazelden big enough at that time (1952 to 1953) to be a match for the story in the 12-and-12? See http://hindsfoot.org/kbs5.html for a photo of Hazelden taken in 1955. It was just a big farmhouse. There was no third floor. And a bowling alley? Maybe, but .... does anyone have any information about whether they could have had all of this in that old farmhouse in 1952 and 1953? - - - - See Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions pp. 147-148: "Beginning on the ground floor there would be a club; in the second story they would sober up drunks and hand them currency for the back debts; the third deck would house and educational project - quite controversial, of course. In imagination the gleaming center was to go up several stories more, but three would do for a start. This would all take a lot of money - other people's money. Believe it or not, wealthy townsfolk bought the idea." "Of course, there was a promoter in the deal - a super-promoter. By his eloquence he allayed all fears, despite advice from the Foundation that it could issue no charter, and that ventures which mixed an A.A. group with medication and education had come to sticky ends elsewhere. To make things safer, the promoter organized three corporations and became president of them all. Freshly painted, the new center shone. The warmth of it all spread through the town. Soon things began to hum. to insure foolproof, continuous operation, sixty-one rules and regulations were adopted." "But alas, this bright scene was not long in darkening. confusion replaced serenity. It was found that some drunks yearned for education, but doubted if they were alcoholics. The personality defects of others could be cured maybe with a loan. Some were club-minded, but it was just a question of taking care of the lonely heart. Sometimes the swarming applicants would go for all three floors. Some would start at the top and come through to the bottom, becoming club members; others started in the club, pitched a binge, were hospitalized, then graduated to education on the third floor." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7209. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Changes in steps or traditions effectively forbidden si... From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2011 5:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn C. wrote: "In AA, we DO NOT burn people at the stake, or chop off their heads in the town square, or hold Salem-type witch trials! Baileygc23@aol.com responds: "Please do not give the faithful hints." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7210. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Changes in steps or traditions effectively forbidden since 1976 From: Jim F. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/3/2011 11:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Jim F. and Jon Markle - - - - From: "Jim F." (f.jim53 at rocketmail.com) The 4th Tradition provides a huge loophole for any group not wanting to observe or abide by the other tradtions. The 4th tradition effectively grants each group autonomy and the "right to be wrong." The steps are also only suggested "guides to progress." In AA it's important to note that all suggestions are given for free, the only ones you may have to pay for are the ones you don't take. Jim F. - - - - From: Jon Markle (jon.markle at mac.com) Some meetings in the Cleveland/Akron area do have some different words in some of the Steps and Traditions. When I first attended them years ago, as a visitor when I went to visit my parents who live in Cleveland, I was very surprised and caught completely off guard by surprise. Imagine this relative newbee's shock! LOL However it forced me to do some homework. I am glad I did not insert my foot in my mouth. It forced me to study our AA history. I have not been offended by those minor changes for years now. In fact, I have become accustomed to the meetings there, their different format, and the distinctive "flavor" of somewhat (to me) rigidity they have toward working the steps, studying the traditions, and working the program as it is written (even though a couple of words are different). I really appreciate the attitude of gratitude instilled in me for our very colorful AA history, with all it's chinks. Jon Markle Raleigh, North Carolina IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7211. . . . . . . . . . . . Can any of Bill W''s writings be changed? From: larry . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2011 5:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I hate to ask what may be an ignorant question, but it is my understanding that there was a conference action that there could be no changes to any of Bill's writings. Is this correct? Larry - - - - From G.C. the moderator: Well, actually, no. In theory, the wording could be changed on Bill W's writings. According to Arthur S's research, a conference action stating that no changes could be made was proposed in 1996, but no advisory action resulted. The next year, the Trustees Committee on Literature also declined to take action on that proposal. See Message #5700 from "Arthur S" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5700?threaded=1 &l=1 ARTHUR SAID: <> <> IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7212. . . . . . . . . . . . Changes in the first 164 pp. of the Big Book From: CloydG . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/3/2011 7:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Clyde G., Glenn C., and gadgetsdad - - - - From: Clyde G. (cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net) In a follow up on John Lee's question, I had been told that the original text -- the first 164 pages of the AA Big Book -- was in the hands of the Trustees. Is this so? I was told that this was done so that the foundation of AA was preserved for generations to follow, so that others whom came into AA could follow in the footsteps of the founders for ever and ever. The job of Conferences was to clarify or correct errors in individual printings from year to year. I was also told that this was Bill and Bob's wishes prior to turning AA over to World Services. Is this so? In love and Service, Clyde G. California - - - - From: Glenn Chesnut (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) Clyde, Well, Arthur S. is the top AA expert on this all-important area of AA history, so I'm just going by what he turned up in his research. It seems to be the case that it is still possible for the Conference to make changes in the first 164 pages of the Big Book. See Arthur's message no. 7211 for more about this: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7211 And if you go back through the messages that have been posted in the AAHistoryLovers, you will in fact find that small changes have been made even in the first 164 pages. They are usually extremely minor changes. The message from gadgetsdad below is one typical example. Glenn C. - - - - From: gadgetsdad (gadgetsdad at yahoo.com) All 16 printings of the first edition and the first six printings of the second edition had the phrase "program of recovery" capitalized [page 59 in the present fourth edition]. After exhaustive research the answer I have to this change was that it was and I quote "an editorial change." There was not a conference or Trustee action that made this change. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7213. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book vs. 12-and-12 on the twelve steps From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/3/2011 9:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Original message #7199 from "mg2131" (jamirabella at yahoo.com) The description of HOW WE WORK the 12 steps was changed when the 12 & 12 was written. I work the steps from the Big Book, I haven't worked them from the 12 & 12. However, I have read the 12 & 12 and to me, the differences that immediately pop to mind (without having it in front of me to check) are that step 1 is different in the 12 & 12, and step 4 is pretty radically different as well. So the change in how they are done, what actions are taken, would date to the 12&12, at least, as it can be tracked with written documentation. Jen - - - - From Jon Markle (jon.markle at mac.com) The steps are *PRECISELY* the same, word for word in both books. The *ESSAYS* following each of the Steps are different. Which was INTENTIONAL. Bill W. had a little more time under his belt when he penned the 12x12, thus he had a vastly additional ESH [Experience, Strength, Hope] on what to say in regard to how they might be approached. The 12x12 was never meant to replace the Big Book. The 12x12 was, however, meant to augment the Big Book, and give a more broad perspective and instruction about the process of working the Steps, because the author had a better understanding of How it Works by then. In the Foreword, pg 17, of the 12x12: "The book 'Alcoholics Anonymous' became the basic text of the Fellowship, and it still is. This present volume [the 12x12] proposes to broaden and deepen the understanding of the Twelve Steps as first written in the earlier work." So, we can look at the 12x12 as adjunct to our study of the steps, not a replacement for the Big Book (by any stretch of the imagination). Jon Markle Raleigh, North Carolina P.S. It was here on AAHistoryLovers, years ago, I believe, that I learned it was NOT A REQUIREMENT for any AA group to adhere or subscribe to the 12 Traditions. It's one of those autonomous things that makes AA so uniquely different from any other system of people. No one can force us to sign on to those Traditions if we do not want to. At first I was in total denial, disbelief; appalled at this suggestion. Now, I'm not so sure about this "loophole". Seeing how the Traditions are somehow used, in some areas, by some groups, to abuse and beat up on other groups. We alcoholics, even though sober, can be SOB's. - - - - From: Robt Woodson (wdywdsn at sbcglobal.net) A quick reading of the Forward to the Twelve and Twelve (p.15) can clear up a lot of problems here...those are not the steps; they are essays on the steps. The essays there were directed at our membership, primarily at questions asked by sponsors about the Twelve Steps;, and also, at others outside of our fellowship (who were asking a lot of questions too). It was perceived that they too might benefit from a knowledge of our Twelve Steps. The Steps themselves remain in the Big Book. A simple case in point or "test" if you will ...you can't work the Fourth Step from the Twelve and Twelve because it doesn't tell you how to do it. I'll hazard a personal opinion...If you want to confuse a newcomer...send them to the Twelve and Twelve. As a way of presenting and elucidating our Twelve Traditions on the other hand, the information there is invaluable. Felices 24 Horas, Woody in Akron - - - - From: Tim DeRan (timderan at msn.com) Keep something in mind, it is known fact that there a lot of people in Cleveland, Ohio who think that Clarence S founded Alcoholics Anonymous in Cleveland, that he wrote the Big Book and that the first meetings of AA took place in Cleveland, Ohio. So that loose play with wording just might have something to do with their thinking they are the source. Sometimes changing words and ideas have confused more than a few members whether new or old. Might be best to stick to that which works. Just for a few grins, there are some other places in Ohio that when asked members of AA in those places will tell that AA was really founded there also. Just saying. tmd IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7214. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: changing the 12 steps From: intuited . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/8/2011 11:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thanks, Norman and Doug. These references were very helpful. The Indian Twelve Steps and their meeting formats were adapted to cultural norms and changed the name God to Great Spirit. Their meeting format includes the reading of both the original AA 12-steps as well as theirs. This allows the members to resonate with a broader potential. I'm guessing GSO doesn't have a problem with these since they use the AA ones also. The freethinkers use the Agnostic 12 steps taken from the NYC website, http://agnosticaanyc.org/ In contrast, these 12-steps remove any energy beyond the self except the wisdom of others. I believe this is an inferred rejection of love, consciousness, intuition or power beyond the self. I would have trouble referring a newbie struggling with their concept of divine transformation to such meetings. Alcoholism is a fatal disease, not to be taken lightly. Please convince me otherwise. By the way, I found this website interesting when searching on epistemology and intuition: http://consc.net/mindpapers/5.1i.1 Last year I met a man at a shaman conference who was working the shamanic 12 steps. Thought some of you might find these interesting. I don't know if they are listed locally in any directories. I have ordered a book on Shamanic Breathwork and the 12 steps to see what more I can glean. 12-STEPS OF SHAMANIC RECOVERY AND DISCOVERY 1. We accept that we are powerless over our addictive, compulsive and codependent patterns of thought and behavior â“ that in the attempt to fill the void rather than embrace it, our lives have become unmanageable. 2. Came to believe that a Power greater than anything we ever knew we could access within ourselves can open us to love and nurture us through our path of recovery and discovery. 3. Knowing that unconditional love is the healer we made a decision to surrender our will and our lives to the care of an inner Greater Power as we understand it. 4. Made a loving and fearless inventory of ourselves. 5. We share our inventory with our Greater Power and another person without the need for self-recrimination, knowing that in naming our shadow we will open our hearts. 6. Were entirely ready to have our Greater Power remove all these obstacles and give up the need to be perfect. 7. Humbly asked our Greater Power to help us let go of all our distractions from the divine that manifest in negative and self destructive patterns of thought and behavior. 8. Made a list of all the persons we have harmed while attempting to fill the void, and became willing to make amends to them all, forgiving them and ourselves. 9. Made direct amends to those we have harmed except when to do so would injure them or others. When making direct amends would cause harm, we make the amends through a ritual or ceremony that honors the other and ourselves. 10. Continue to take personal inventory daily, as an act of reverence, committing to our personal growth and when we are wrong, promptly admit it and lovingly accept responsibility for our mistakes. We also admitted when our boundaries have been violated and choose to fearlessly and lovingly tell the truth to free ourselves and others from the bondage of inauthentic living. 11. Grow through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with our inner Greater Power, praying only for knowledge of our Greater Powerâs will for us and the love and strength to carry that out in our daily lives by the practice of acting from love rather than fear. 12. As a result of these steps, we reach a greater understanding of our true selves and are able to carry the message of recovery and discovery in our daily lives. We may then live the passionate dance of co-creating our lives through the synthesis of our will and the will and wisdom of our inner Divine Spirit. Adapted from the teaching of Alcoholics Anonymous, Codependents Anonymous and Humans Anonymous. This expansion of the 12 Steps is lovingly offered from the participants and staff of Venus Rising to give hope and strength to anyone looking for soulful sobriety. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7215. . . . . . . . . . . . Lackland-Long Beach method of alcoholism treatment From: Bryan Reid . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2011 9:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Message #7208 contained a reference to a photo taken of the Hazelden treatment center in 1955: http://hindsfoot.org/kbs5.html That web page discussed the "Lackland method" with what I consider to be an extraordinary success ratio. I'm totally ignorant of the Lackland method and would be most appreciative if someone could steer me in the right direction to learn more about it. Bryan Highway 92 Group in Sierra Vista, Arizona. - - - - From G.C. the moderator: In early AA, the principal source of tension was not those who believed in God vs. those who were atheists. There weren't very many real atheists during the early period -- one or two or so that we know by name, seem to have been all they were. The tension was actually between those who emphasized the spiritual aspects of the program and those who stressed the psychological side of the program. An early AA figure named Sgt. Bill Swegan ended up as the principal spokesman for the side which wished to work AA almost completely as a psychological program. They were not classical Freudians (who claimed that all our problems went back to infancy -- alcoholics were people who didn't get enough breast feeding, etc.). They instead worked on the basis of the kind of psychology and psychiatry that was taught by Adler (Bill W's mother was an Adlerian therapist), Karen Horney, and Erik Erikson. Their theory was that most alcoholics underwent some kind of trauma during their childhood (they didn't have the right clothes to fit in at school, one of their parents was an alcoholic, one of their parents died, they were the victims of abuse, or whatever) where they stopped developing emotionally past that age. So you had a grown man or woman still throwing two-year-old temper tantrums or acting like an extremely obnoxious and out-of-control thirteen-year-old or something of the sort. Sometimes the alcoholic drinking started at that age, sometimes it did not begin until they were older. But they needed something like a good family -- one filled with wise father and mother figures, people who could act like good older brothers and sisters, and wise old grandparents and uncles and aunts -- who could gently and lovingly help them grow up emotionally. This was what the AA fellowship did -- it was the AA fellowship which healed.* You can read a short version of their teaching about alcoholism in Kenneth G. Merrill, "Drunks Are a Mess," published in a magazine for recovering alcoholics in prison, as part of a program (which he had himself helped start) for alcoholic convicts at the Indiana state penitentiary at Michigan City -- the second most famous early AA prison group, which had a 75% success rate when Ken and his people from South Bend were sponsoring it). http://hindsfoot.org/nsbend2.html Also see http://hindsfoot.org/NSBend3.html and http://hindsfoot.org/NSBend1.html It is called the Lackland-Long Beach method, because Bill Swegan developed the full-fledged version of the recovery program at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas, in 1953. Two other famous figures from AA history -- psychiatrist Dr. Joseph J. Zuska and AA member Dick Jewell -- gave Swegan's method further development in the mid 1960's at the Long Beach Naval Station in California. Nancy Olson (the founder of the AAHistoryLovers) talked about Joe Zuska and Dick Jewell in her book "With a Lot of Help from Our Friends": http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html Joe Zuska is still to this day one of the truly great and most beloved AA heroes in that part of California. Bill Swegan wrote about his own experiences in a book which was originally entitled "On the Military Firing Line in the Alcoholism Treatment Program." It is currently being re-issued in a second edition, to be entitled simply "The Psychology of Alcoholism." THE BLURB ON THE BACK OF THE BOOK WILL READ: ===================================== William E. Swegan (“Sgt. Bill”) was the major spokesman for the psychological wing of early Alcoholics Anonymous—that group within the newborn A.A. movement of the 1930’s, 40’s and 50’s which stressed the psychotherapeutic side of the twelve step program instead of the spiritual side. This book is Swegan’s major work, in which he lays out the psychiatric theories which formed the foundation of that variety of A.A. thought. He also talks about his association with Mrs. Marty Mann, Yev Gardner, E. M. Jellinek at the Yale School of Alcohol Studies, Bill Dotson (A.A. No. 3) and Searcy Whaley, in addition to recording his memories of the year he spent observing Sister Ignatia at work at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron. In 1953 Sgt. Bill teamed up with famous American psychiatrist Louis Jolyon “Jolly” West at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas, to develop a method of alcoholism treatment (given further development in the mid 1960s by Dr. Joseph J. Zuska and Dick Jewell at Long Beach Naval Station) called the Lackland-Long Beach Model. It became one of the three basic types of A.A.-oriented alcoholism treatment program, along with the Minnesota Model and Sister Ignatia’s more spiritually oriented approach. Sgt. Bill does not just talk psychiatric theories in this book. He uses his own life story to show how traumatic loss, poverty, inadequate self-esteem, envy, self-pity and rage can drive children and youths into isolationism, rebellion, self-sabotage, and ultimately the descent into uncontrollable alcoholism or drug addiction. But in his humanistic understanding of the twelve step program he also shows us how to make use of the healing power of the spirit of Love and Service to our fellow human beings to restore ourselves to new life. ===================================== For more information see: Bill Swegan's article on "The Psychology of Alcoholism" at http://hindsfoot.org/BSV02Psy.html http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kBS2.html http://hindsfoot.org/kBS3.html http://hindsfoot.org/kBS4.html http://hindsfoot.org/kBS5.html The section on William E. Swegan in the middle of the page at http://hindsfoot.org/essays.html http://hindsfoot.org/BSV01Thr.html ____________________________ *On the healing role of the AA fellowship, see also http://hindsfoot.org/kas1.html and http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7216. . . . . . . . . . . . Is this legend about NA writing AA true? From: David . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/8/2011 9:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have heard a story about a purported letter sent from NA headquarters to AA's GSO saying, in effect, Stop killing our people by telling them they can join AA. My question is: is this just an urban legend or does such a letter exist? And if it does exist, where could I find a copy of it? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7217. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is this legend about NA writing AA true? From: Jeff . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2011 9:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I can't vouch for the provenance of this letter, but here it is: Some thoughts regarding our relationship to Alcoholics Anonymous WORLD SERVICE BOARD OF TRUSTEES BULLETIN #13 This article was generated by the Narcotics Anonymous World Service Board of Trustees in November 1985 in response to the needs of their fellowship. This bulletin was revised during the 1995-1996 conference year. The question of just how Narcotics Anonymous relates to all other fellowships and organizations is one which may generate controversy within our fellowship. In spite of the fact that we have a stated policy of "cooperation, not affiliation" with outside organizations confusion remains. One such sensitive issue involves our relationship to the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous. Letters have been received by the World Service Board of Trustees asking a variety of questions about this relationship. Narcotics Anonymous is modeled after Alcoholics Anonymous. Nearly every NA community in existence has leaned to some degree on AA in its formative stages. Our relation-ship with that fellowship over the years has been very real and dynamic. Our fellowship itself sprang from the turmoil within AA over what to do with the addicts knocking on its doors. We will look at our roots for some perspective on our current relationship to AA. Bill W, one of AA's co-founders, often said that one of AA's greatest strengths is its single-minded focus on one thing and one thing only. By limiting its primary purpose to carrying the message to alcoholics, and avoiding all other activities, AA is able to do that one thing supremely well. The atmosphere of identification is preserved by that purity of focus, and alcoholics get help. From very early on, AA was confronted by a perplexing problem: "What do we do with drug addicts? We want to keep our focus on alcohol so the alcoholic hears the message, but these addicts come in here talking about drugs, inadvertently weakening our atmosphere of identification." The steps were written, the Big Book was written—what were they supposed to do, rewrite it all? Allow the atmosphere of identification to get blurry so that no one got a clear sense of belonging? Kick these dying people back out into the streets? The problem must have been a tremendous one for them. When they finally studied the problem carefully and took a stand in their literature, the solution they outlined possessed their characteristic common sense and wisdom. They pledged their support in a spirit of "cooperation, not affiliation." This farsighted solution to a difficult concern paved the way for the development of the Narcotics Anonymous Fellowship. But still, the problem that they wished to avoid would have to be addressed by any group that tried to adapt AA's program of recovery to drug addicts. How do you achieve the atmosphere of identification so necessary for surrender and recovery if you let all different kinds of addicts in? Can someone with a heroin problem relate to someone with an alcohol or marijuana or Valium problem? How will you ever achieve the unity that the First Tradition says is necessary for recovery? Our fellowship inherited a tough dilemma. For some perspective on how we handled that dilemma, one more look at AA history is helpful. Another thing Bill W. frequently wrote and spoke about was what he called the "tenstrike" of AA—the wording of the Third and Eleventh Steps. The whole area of spirituality versus religion was as perplexing for them as unity was for us. Bill liked to recount that the simple addition of the words "as we understood Him" after the word "God" killed that controversy in one chop. An issue that had the potential to divide and destroy AA was converted into the cornerstone of the program by that simple turn of phrase. As the founders of Narcotics Anonymous adapted our steps, they came up with a "tenstrike" of perhaps equal importance. Rather than converting the First Step in a natural, logical way ("we admitted that we were powerless over drugs..."), they made a radical change in that step. They wrote, "We admitted that we were powerless over our addiction..." Drugs are a varied group of substances, the use of any of which is but a symptom of our disease. When addicts gather and focus on drugs, they are usually focusing on their differences, because each of us used a different drug or combination of drugs. The one thing that we all share is the disease of addiction. With that single turn of a phrase, the foundation of the Narcotics Anonymous Fellowship was laid. Our First Step gives us one focus: our addiction. The wording of Step One also takes the focus of our powerlessness off the symptom and places it on the disease itself. The phrase "powerless over a drug" does not go far enough for most of us in recovery -- the desire to use has been removed -- but "powerless over our addiction" is as relevant to the oldtimer as it is to the newcomer. Our addiction begins to resurface and cause unmanageability in our thoughts and feelings whenever we become complacent in our program of recovery. This process has nothing to do with "drug of choice." We guard against the recurrence of our drug use by applying our spiritual principles, before a relapse. Our First Step applies regardless of drug of choice and length of clean time. With this "tenstrike" as its foundation, NA has begun to flourish as a major worldwide organization, clearly focusing on addiction.. As any NA community matures in its understanding of its own principles (particularly Step One), an interesting fact emerges. The AA perspective, with its alcohol-oriented language, and the NA approach, with its clear need to shift the focus away from specific drugs, don't mix well. When we try to mix them, we find that we have the same problem as AA had with us all along! When our members identify as "addicts and alcoholics" or talk about "sobriety" and living "clean and sober," the clarity of the NA message is blurred. The implication in this language is that there are two diseases, that one drug is separate from another, so a separate set of terms is needed when discussing addiction. At first glance this seems minor, but our experience clearly shows that the full impact of the NA message is crippled by this subtle semantic confusion. It has become clear that our common identification, our unity, and our full surrender as addicts depends on a clear understanding of our most fundamental principles: We are powerless over a disease that gets progressively worse when we use any drug. It does not matter what drug was at the center for us when we arrived. Any drug we use will release our disease all over again. We recover from the disease of addiction by applying our Twelve Steps. Our steps are uniquely worded to carry this message clearly, so the rest of our language of recovery must be consistent with our steps. We cannot mix these fundamental principles with those of our parent fellowship without crippling our own message. Both fellowships have a Sixth Tradition for a reason: to keep each one from being diverted from its own primary purpose. Because of the inherent need of a Twelve Step fellowship to focus on one thing and one thing only, so that it can do that one thing supremely well, each Twelve Step fellowship must stand alone, unaffiliated with everything else. It is in our nature to be separate, to feel separate, and use a separate set of recovery terms, because we each have a separate, unique primary purpose. The focus of AA is on the alcoholic, and we ought to respect that fellowship's perfect right to adhere to its own traditions and protect its focus. If we cannot use language consistent with that, we ought not go to their meetings and undermine that atmosphere. In the same way, we NA members ought to respect our own primary purpose and identify ourselves at NA meetings simply as addicts, and share in a way that keeps our message clear. A casual, cursory glance at AA's success in delivering recovery to alcoholics over the years makes it abundantly clear that theirs is a successful program. Their literature, their service structure, the quality of their members' recovery, their sheer numbers, the respect they enjoy from society—these things speak for themselves. Our members ought not embarrass us by adopting a "we're better than them" posture. That can only be counterproductive. As a fellowship, we must continue to strive to move forward by not stubbornly clinging to one radical extreme or the other. Our members who have been unintentionally blurring the NA message by using drug-specific language such as "sobriety," "alcoholic," "clean and sober," "dope fiend," etc., could help by identifying simply and clearly as addicts, and using the words "clean," "clean time," and "recovery," which imply no particular substance. We all could help by referring to only our own literature at meetings, thereby avoiding any implied endorsement or affiliation. Our principles stand on their own. For the sake of our development as a fellowship and the personal recovery of our members, our approach to the problem of addiction must shine through clearly in what we say and do at meetings. Our members who have used these arguments to rationalize an anti-AA stand, thereby alienating many sorely needed stable members, would do well to re-evaluate and reconsider the effects of that kind of behavior. Narcotics Anonymous is a spiritual fellowship. Love, tolerance, patience, and cooperation are essential if we are to live our principles. Let's devote our energies to our personal spiritual development through our own Twelve Steps. Let's carry our own message clearly. There's a lot of work to be done, and we need each other if we are to be effective. Let's move forward in a spirit of NA unity. (Reprinted from Newsline Vol. 2, No. 6.) --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "David" wrote: > > I have heard a story about a purported letter sent from NA headquarters to AA's GSO saying, in effect, Stop killing our people by telling them they can join AA. > > My question is: is this just an urban legend or does such a letter exist? And if it does exist, where could I find a copy of it? > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7218. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/8/2011 8:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII THE STORY OF ALANON OF NEW JERSEY Cindy's suggestion is an interesting one. There are many similarities in the story and the narration of "Rule 62" in the 12 & 12. This will require some additional research. For now, please enjoy "The Story of Alanon of New Jersey" This pamphlet was authored in 1948 and an original can be found in the GSO archives. We are preparing to re-release here in Northern NJ as we are currently completing a history display for the Alanon Club. God Bless John B. - Area 44 Archives _________________________________________ The Story of ALANON of New Jersey THIS PAMPHLET is issued to assist many persons in AA who are not clear in their minds about the Alanon Club. They have been unable to recognize the distinction between the Club and the Movement proper. With so many new alcoholics coming into AA daily, a good portion of them joining Alanon, we are constantly plied with questions concerning the Club's exact status. SOCIAL HAVEN The Alanon Association is a social for club for sincere AAs in good standing. Its job is to provide AAs with a place to visit and enjoy on another's friendship and companionship under the most congenial conditions within our grasp. It endeavors to furnish amusement and diversion for the members and their families and to serve all members of Alcoholics Anonymous in need of the help and comfort which comes of group fellowship as practiced in the Movement. Alanon functions actively in the rehabilitation of the men and women of AA. The Alanon Club directly engages in no AA therapeutic work whatsoever. It adheres rigidly to the AA tradition as propounded by the Alcoholic Foundation, but it is neither a "Group" nor a central body in any sense. Purely and simply, it is a recreation center for the individual embers of AA in New Jersey–who own it. Alanon seeks no rights or jurisdiction in any other unit within the Movement; by the same token, it is a legally chartered non–profit corporation of New Jersey entirely controlled and operated by its own membership, who annually elect a board of five trustees to manage it. In the event it should ever be liquidated, the proceeds would go to the Foundation. FACILITIES The ample club house, measuring 80 feet long by 50 feet wide on a 100 x 100 plot, is fully equipped with club facilities. In the basement are located its four bowling alleys which are busy seven days a week, the card room, toilets, heating plant, etc. On the first floor are spacious lounging parlors equipped with a $1,999 Television-Radio combination and a grand piano in good condition. This floor also contains a huge recreation room where three pool tables and a shuffleboard do yeomen service, and our kitchen and coffee bar, which are in operation from 9:00 A.M. to the closing hour of midnight, (1:00 A.M. Friday and Saturday nights). A large auditorium seating 400, occupies most of the second floor, with the ladies' powder room, Intergroup office and storeroom making up the balance. Maintenance and operation of the club house is handled by a staff of paid workers, under the supervision of the club manager. Owing to the financial obligations involved, the club management finds it necessary to retain control over major social functions, through the help of members working through committees has proven of great value and is encouraged. ACTIVITIES The club is a bedlam of fun-making on weekends, particularly on Saturday nights. In fact, a social function is arranged for almost every Saturday night in the year. Also, special programs are staged on significant holidays, such as Hallowe'en,(sic) Thanksgiving, St. Patrick's Day, Christmas, and highlight of the year, New Year's Eve. These functions are of a wide variety, and include dances, costume parties, card parties, Monte Carlo nights, game nights, musical entertainment, night club floor shows and Broadway-type reviews. Generally, all the talent workers for those affairs are drawn from the club membership. Activity is by no means confined to weekends, however. Every night there is plenty of action, at the pool tables, shuffleboard, television and card room. Besides, the tables adjoining the coffee bar and the big arm chairs in the parlors are abuzz with AAs in "bull" sessions. It is a rare night that does not count a minimum of 75 to 100 members and twice that number is the usual nightly complement. FINANCES The club is on a sound financial basis and boasts of a satisfactory balance in the bank. The property itself was purchased outright in November, 1944, for $22,000 and is now in its fourth year of operation. A non-alcoholic friend of several years standing advanced us $15,000 on a first mortgage, and 91 AAs who helped to found the club loaned an additional $9,000. To them were issued Certificates of Indebtedness which will become due and payable in 1955, bearing 3% interest. These Certificates are, in effect, promissory notes. They do not constitute a lien against the property, but they are a legal obligation and their integrity is guaranteed by the assets and honor of the organization. To date, grateful members have endorsed back to the club nearly $1,000 worth of these Certificates. Up to the present time, the club has reduced the mortgage on the property by about $4,000, and set aside $1,500 additional in a sinking fund toward the amortization of the Certificates of Indebtedness. Present intention is to deposit $1,000 a year in the sinking fund until the Certificates mature. REVENUES The sources of operating revenues consist of dues, which are nominal now; sale of coffee, sandwiches, ice cream, etc., at the coffee bar; fees for the use of the bowling, pool, etc., facilities and contributions at the social events in the auditorium. The Club is necessarily conducted strictly along business lines, on a cash basis and with no tabs or deferred accounts. Members three months in arrears in dues are posted on the bulletin board. Contributions from AA groups are not solicited, though occasionally voluntary donations are received from this source. Groups also sometimes sponsor dances, etc., in the auditorium, and turn the proceeds over to the club treasury. Through the cooperation of the municipal and county governments, the club property is legally exempt from all local taxes, because of its recognized rehabilitation work. OWNERSHIP Folks ask, "Who owns the Alanon? The Groups? The Intergroup Committee? The Newark AAs? A clique of bondholders or stockholders? A band of private individuals?" To answer all of the above there is but a single answer: NO. Alanon's charter stipulates that its individual members shall always be its sole owners. Any New Jersey AA is eligible to join Alanon, and when he or she joins, he or she automatically becomes an owner of the Association's property and assets in common with all other members. No Group or Committee or any other organized band of AAs can have any rights of ownership or control over the club. There are no bondholders or stockholders because no bonds or shares of stock were ever issued. The club charter specifies that membership in Alanon is open to any New Jersey AA, which means that no local group from any particular locality enjoys any prior rights over the remainder of the state. At the present writing, February 1948, these owner-members number 560, and they belong to 43 AA groups scattered over the State. SOME HISTORY Others want to know exactly what is the Alanon Club? What does it do? Does it dry out drunks on their way into AA? And "slippers"? Does it provide manpower for the 12th Step work? Or speakers for group meetings? Does it fix a fellow up for a night's lodging? Does it give out alms? Again the answer is in the negative. The above questions embrace straight AA work, which is the province of the Groups, the Intergroup or individual AAs. Disastrous experience has taught us that Club activities and Group work do not mix. The Club cannot dry a man out, but it does provide the recreation needed for his rehabilitation. We had hardly opened our own doors in the beginning when we discovered, to our consternation, that we were developing our own "skid row" in the club house. Its denizens consisted of newcomers still under the influence of alcohol coming in to be sobered up; chronic "slippers," resting between periodic binges; insincere members on the prowl for unwary AA members with a bankroll; visitors of sorts from Mulberry Street in search of a "flop" or whatnot, and "touch" artists of various stripes and skills. These are only a few of the many types of undesirable phonies we encountered. 12th Step work in those early days posed an almost insuperable problem. As the public became aware of Alanon, they regarded it as a sought of AA headquarters, with the result that by phone, mail and personal calls, every passing day brought a steady stream of requests for help from social workers, the clergy, family, courts, the police, welfare agencies, ordinary citizens, and, of course, AAs everywhere. But it got to be too much. We hadn't the manpower to cope with the calls, and besides, most AAs came to the club for relaxation, having attended to their AA work, including the 12th Step, through their own groups. They looked to Alanon for social diversion with other dry AAs. We finally realized we had to be a club or a clinic – we could not be both. INTERGROUP The Intergroup Committee cleared the way for the necessary separation. The club had made the formation of Intergroup possible after earlier efforts along these lines had failed for lack of a common meeting place and other facilities. The same membership that founded Alanon also organized Intergroup, and it was thought at first that both units could function efficiently in combination. In fact, the same person acted as secretary and manager for both organizations. However, the joint operation lasted only a little more than a year when it collapsed amid confusion and dissatisfaction SEPARATION Then the separation was made complete. Both Alanon and Intergroup revamped their policies, the former becoming exclusively a social club and recreation center for dry AAs in good standing, and the Committee a central clearance station for AA groups and members, mass meetings, information, and our relations with the world outside. The result has met with commendable success. All confusion has ended and each organization is operating with incomparably greater efficiency. Both units now are completely separate and independent of each other, save in one respect. Rent free, Intergroup maintains its private office in the club and holds the monthly mass meetings there. However, in the belief that its central office can function better away from the club the Intergroup is presently seeking other quarters. BILL'S IDEAS We are including below excerpts from Founder Bill's article on Clubs in AA, now officially part of AA Tradition. We believe the Alanon operation in Newark is not inconsistent with Bill's present thinking. There is real separation of the material from the spiritual. The business of AA is not encroached upon. Newark is the center of a large urban area, but more than three years of successful operation has demonstrated that it is possible for this club to be a continuing help to alcoholics, in strict accordance with AA principles. COME IN; IT'S YOURS Alanon's doors are always open to AAs everywhere. We bid welcome to all. Guest may be had for the asking. Owner-membership is open to all AAs in good standing after thirty days in any group. Excerpts from CLUBS IN AA By BILL The club idea has become part of A.A. life. Scores of these hospitable havens can report years of useful service; new ones are being started monthly. Were a vote taken tomorrow on the desirability of clubs a sizeable majority of A.A.s would record a resounding "Yes." There would be thousands who would testify that they might have had a harder time staying sober in their first months of A.A. without clubs and that, in any case, they would always wish the easy contacts and warm friendships which clubs afford. …Toward a middle ground, for several years now, we have been feeling our way. Despite alarms it is quite settled that A.A.s who need and want clubs ought to have them. Throughout the country most clubs have started like ours did. At first we regard them as central A.A. institutions. But later experience invariably brings a shift in their status, a shift much to be desired, we now think. This tangle slowly commenced to unravel, as we began to get the idea that clubs ought to be strictly the business of those individuals who especially want clubs, and who are willing to pay for them. We began to see that club management is a pure business proposition which ought to be separately incorporated under another name such, for example, as "Alanon"; that the "directors" of a club corporation ought to look after club business only; that an A.A. group, as such, should never get into active management of a business project. Hectic experience has since taught us that if an A.A. rotating committee tries to boss the club corporation or if the corporation tries to run the A.A. affairs of those groups who may meet at the club there is difficulty at once. The only way we have found to cure this is to separate the material from the spiritual. Questions are often asked: "Who elects the business directors of a club?" And "Does club membership differ from A.A. membership?" As practices vary we don't quite know the answers yet. The most reasonable suggestions seem these: Any A.A. member ought to feel free to enjoy the ordinary privileges of any A.A. club whether be makes a regular voluntary contribution or not. If he contributes regularly be should, in addition be entitled to vote in the business meetings which elect the business directors of his club corporation. This would open all clubs to all A.A.s. But it would limit their business conduct to those interested enough to contribute regularly. In this connection we might remind ourselves that in A.A. we have no fees or compulsory dues. But it ought to be added, of course, that since clubs are becoming separate and private ventures they can be run on other lines if their members insist. Acceptance of large sums from any source to buy, build or finance clubs almost invariably leads to later headaches. Public solicitation is, of course, extremely dangerous. Complete self-support of clubs and everything else connected with A.A. is becoming our universal practice. Club evolution is also telling us this: In none but small communities are clubs likely to remain the principal centers of A.A. activity. Originally starting as the main center of a city many a club moves to larger and larger quarters, thinking to retain the central meeting for its area within its own walls. Finally, however, circumstances defeat this purpose. Circumstance number one is that the growing A.A. will burst the walls of any clubhouse. Sooner or later the principal or central meeting has to be moved into a large auditorium. The club can't hold it. This is a fact which ought to be soberly contemplated whenever we think of buying or building large clubhouses. A second circumstance seems sure to leave most clubs in an "off center" position, especially in large cities. That is our strong tendency toward central or intergroup committee management of the common A.A. problems of metropolitan areas. Every area, sooner or later, realizes that such concerns as intergroup meetings, hospital arrangements, local public relations, a central office for interviews and information, are things in which every A.A. is interested, whether be has any use for clubs or not. These being strictly A.A. matters, a central or intergroup committee has to be elected and financed to look after them. The groups of an area will usually support with group funds these truly central activities. Even though the club is still large enough for intergroup meetings and these meetings are still held, the center of gravity for the area will continue to shift to the intergroup committee and its central activities. The club is left definitely offside; where, in the opinion of many, it should be. Actively supported and managed by those who want clubs, they can be "taken or left alone." Should these principles be fully applied to our clubs, we shall have placed ourselves in a position to enjoy their warmth yet drop any that get too hot. We shall then realize that a club is but a valuable social aid. And, more important still, we shall always preserve the simple A.A. group as that primary spiritual entity whence issues our greatest strength. * * * The Board of Trustees Alanon Association Inc. Of New Jersey --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Cindy Miller wrote: > > In the late 90's I attended an Archives Workshop held at the "Alanon Association" club in Newark, NJ. (This name is a contraction of alcoholics Anonymous. The Al-anon Fellowship had not been founded yet.) > > This building had been purchased and opened as a Clubhouse in the early 40's. (One of the first--it was a big deal.) As I recall, it had 3 floors -- one with restaurant/catering facilities, one with a bowling alley -- and of course, meeting rooms. It was said that this was the model AA complex talked about in Tradition 4. Could some North Jersey member corroborate/correct this info? > > North Jersey has GREAT Archives. Saw the actual "Rule 62" card displayed there, as well as many fliers for events with Bill W. in attendance. > > In service, > Cindy Miller > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7219. . . . . . . . . . . . Magazine article: critics can be our benefactors From: Rae Turnbull . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2011 9:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello, My question is: In segment 3 of "Language of the Heart" Bill W prefaces the article "Our Critics Can Be Our Benefactors" by stating "When a magazine criticizing aspects of AA raised questions about AA's relationships to medicine, religion, and the world at large ...." Does anyone know which magazine he was referring to and what date the article was published? Thanks for any help with this question. Rae T Bookmarks Corpus Christi, Texas IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7220. . . . . . . . . . . . Looking for a photo of Jim Newton From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2011 11:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Could someone kindly send me a picture of the Jim Newton who helped Bud Firestone find sobriety? Thanks in advance! Bob S. ___________________________________________ Mail to: (rstonebraker212 at comcast.net) Bob Stonebraker 212 SW 18th Street Richmond, Indiana 47374 phone (765) 935-0130 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7221. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Magazine article: critics can be our benefactors From: ron.fulkerson@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2011 7:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Rae, The article was in HARPER'S Magazine, February 1963, written by Arthur H. Cain. If you love AA and it saved your life, this article is a tough read. -- ronf (Should you want copies, let us know.) - - - - Message #7219 from Rae Turnbull (raeturnbull at sbcglobal.net) In segment 3 of "Language of the Heart" Bill W prefaces the article "Our Critics Can Be Our Benefactors" by stating "When a magazine criticizing aspects of AA raised questions about AA's relationships to medicine, religion, and the world at large ...." Does anyone know which magazine he was referring to and what date the article was published? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7222. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is this legend about NA writing AA true? From: Michael . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2011 11:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi all, This was not a letter to AA. This was simply a Bulletin from NA's Word Services prepared for their own membership (from 1985). You can view it on the NA website [OR SEE THE COPY OF THAT BULLETIN BELOW]: http://www.wsoinc.com/?ID=bulletins-bull13-r I have seen this before and for the life of me I don't see how anyone could interpret this as a message to AA telling them to "Stop killing our people by telling them they can join AA" (Did he mean "can't instead of can? Either way I don't see it.) To me this bulletin is stressing respect between the fellowships and simply outlining a different philosophy when it comes to the First Step. I don't see anything contentious in there. In fact, it really seems to me that the bulletin is calling out their own members to check their attitudes toward AA and stop fostering any anti AA feelings. The fellowships have so much in common and mature members in both have a mutual respect for each other and see the commonality. We're cut from the same cloth (Bill said we were "cousins" to the drug addict) and we're both striving for the same thing. Thanks, Mike Margetis Brunswick, Maryland ============================================= NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS WORLD SERVICES Bulletin #13 http://www.wsoinc.com/?ID=bulletins-bull13-r Some thoughts regarding our relationship to Alcoholics Anonymous This article was generated by the World Service Board of Trustees in November 1985 in response to the needs of the fellowship. This bulletin was revised during the 1995-1996 conference year. The question of just how Narcotics Anonymous relates to all other fellowships and organizations is one which may generate controversy within our fellowship. In spite of the fact that we have a stated policy of "cooperation, not affiliation" with outside organizations confusion remains. One such sensitive issue involves our relationship to the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous. Letters have been received by the World Service Board of Trustees asking a variety of questions about this relationship. Narcotics Anonymous is modeled after Alcoholics Anonymous. Nearly every NA community in existence has leaned to some degree on AA in its formative stages. Our relationship with that fellowship over the years has been very real and dynamic. Our fellowship itself sprang from the turmoil within AA over what to do with the addicts knocking on its doors. We will look at our roots for some perspective on our current relationship to AA. Bill W, one of AA's co-founders, often said that one of AA's greatest strengths is its single-minded focus on one thing and one thing only. By limiting its primary purpose to carrying the message to alcoholics, and avoiding all other activities, AA is able to do that one thing supremely well. The atmosphere of identification is preserved by that purity of focus, and alcoholics get help. From very early on, AA was confronted by a perplexing problem: "What do we do with drug addicts? We want to keep our focus on alcohol so the alcoholic hears the message, but these addicts come in here talking about drugs, inadvertently weakening our atmosphere of identification." The steps were written, the Big Book was writtenâ”what were they supposed to do, rewrite it all? Allow the atmosphere of identification to get blurry so that no one got a clear sense of belonging? Kick these dying people back out into the streets? The problem must have been a tremendous one for them. When they finally studied the problem carefully and took a stand in their literature, the solution they outlined possessed their characteristic common sense and wisdom. They pledged their support in a spirit of "cooperation, not affiliation." This farsighted solution to a difficult concern paved the way for the development of the Narcotics Anonymous Fellowship. But still, the problem that they wished to avoid would have to be addressed by any group that tried to adapt AAâs program of recovery to drug addicts. How do you achieve the atmosphere of identification so necessary for surrender and recovery if you let all different kinds of addicts in? Can someone with a heroin problem relate to someone with an alcohol or marijuana or Valium problem? How will you ever achieve the unity that the First Tradition says is necessary for recovery? Our fellowship inherited a tough dilemma. For some perspective on how we handled that dilemma, one more look at AA history is helpful. Another thing Bill W. frequently wrote and spoke about was what he called the "tenstrike" of AAâ”the wording of the Third and Eleventh Steps. The whole area of spirituality versus religion was as perplexing for them as unity was for us. Bill liked to recount that the simple addition of the words "as we understood Him" after the word "God" killed that controversy in one chop. An issue that had the potential to divide and destroy AA was converted into the cornerstone of the program by that simple turn of phrase. As the founders of Narcotics Anonymous adapted our steps, they came up with a "tenstrike" of perhaps equal importance. Rather than converting the First Step in a natural, logical way ("we admitted that we were powerless over drugs..."), they made a radical change in that step. They wrote, "We admitted that we were powerless over our addiction..." Drugs are a varied group of substances, the use of any of which is but a symptom of our disease. When addicts gather and focus on drugs, they are usually focusing on their differences, because each of us used a different drug or combination of drugs. The one thing that we all share is the disease of addiction. With that single turn of a phrase, the foundation of the Narcotics Anonymous Fellowship was laid. Our First Step gives us one focus: our addiction. The wording of Step One also takes the focus of our powerlessness off the symptom and places it on the disease itself. The phrase "powerless over a drug" does not go far enough for most of us in recoveryâ”the desire to use has been removedâ”but "powerless over our addiction" is as relevant to the oldtimer as it is to the newcomer. Our addiction begins to resurface and cause unmanageability in our thoughts and feelings whenever we become complacent in our program of recovery. This process has nothing to do with "drug of choice." We guard against the recurrence of our drug use by applying our spiritual principles, before a relapse. Our First Step applies regardless of drug of choice and length of clean time. With this "tenstrike" as its foundation, NA has begun to flourish as a major worldwide organization, clearly focusing on addiction. As any NA community matures in its understanding of its own principles (particularly Step One), an interesting fact emerges. The AA perspective, with its alcohol-oriented language, and the NA approach, with its clear need to shift the focus away from specific drugs, donât mix well. When we try to mix them, we find that we have the same problem as AA had with us all along! When our members identify as "addicts and alcoholics" or talk about "sobriety" and living "clean and sober," the clarity of the NA message is blurred. The implication in this language is that there are two diseases, that one drug is separate from another, so a separate set of terms is needed when discussing addiction. At first glance this seems minor, but our experience clearly shows that the full impact of the NA message is crippled by this subtle semantic confusion. It has become clear that our common identification, our unity, and our full surrender as addicts depends on a clear understanding of our most fundamental principles: We are powerless over a disease that gets progressively worse when we use any drug. It does not matter what drug was at the center for us when we arrived. Any drug we use will release our disease all over again. We recover from the disease of addiction by applying our Twelve Steps. Our steps are uniquely worded to carry this message clearly, so the rest of our language of recovery must be consistent with our steps. We cannot mix these fundamental principles with those of our parent fellowship without crippling our own message. Both fellowships have a Sixth Tradition for a reason: to keep each one from being diverted from its own primary purpose. Because of the inherent need of a Twelve Step fellowship to focus on one thing and one thing only, so that it can do that one thing supremely well, each Twelve Step fellowship must stand alone, unaffiliated with everything else. It is in our nature to be separate, to feel separate, and use a separate set of recovery terms, because we each have a separate, unique primary purpose. The focus of AA is on the alcoholic, and we ought to respect that fellowshipâs perfect right to adhere to its own traditions and protect its focus. If we cannot use language consistent with that, we ought not go to their meetings and undermine that atmosphere. In the same way, we NA members ought to respect our own primary purpose and identify ourselves at NA meetings simply as addicts, and share in a way that keeps our message clear. A casual, cursory glance at AAâs success in delivering recovery to alcoholics over the years makes it abundantly clear that theirs is a successful program. Their literature, their service structure, the quality of their members' recovery, their sheer numbers, the respect they enjoy from societyâ”these things speak for themselves. Our members ought not embarrass us by adopting a "we're better than them" posture. That can only be counterproductive. As a fellowship, we must continue to strive to move forward by not stubbornly clinging to one radical extreme or the other. Our members who have been unintentionally blurring the NA message by using drug-specific language such as "sobriety," "alcoholic," "clean and sober," "dope fiend," etc., could help by identifying simply and clearly as addicts, and using the words "clean," "clean time," and "recovery," which imply no particular substance. We all could help by referring to only our own literature at meetings, thereby avoiding any implied endorsement or affiliation. Our principles stand on their own. For the sake of our development as a fellowship and the personal recovery of our members, our approach to the problem of addiction must shine through clearly in what we say and do at meetings. Our members who have used these arguments to rationalize an anti-AA stand, thereby alienating many sorely needed stable members, would do well to re-evaluate and reconsider the effects of that kind of behavior. Narcotics Anonymous is a spiritual fellowship. Love, tolerance, patience, and cooperation are essential if we are to live our principles. Let's devote our energies to our personal spiritual development through our own Twelve Steps. Let's carry our own message clearly. There's a lot of work to be done, and we need each other if we are to be effective. Let's move forward in a spirit of NA unity. (Reprinted from Newsline Vol. 2, No. 6.) ============================================= Original message from "David" said: > > I have heard a story about a purported letter sent from NA headquarters to AA's GSO saying, in effect, Stop killing our people by telling them they can join AA. > > My question is: is this just an urban legend or does such a letter exist? And if it does exist, where could I find a copy of it? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7223. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Is this legend about NA writing AA true? From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2011 2:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My friend Boyd and I have made two trips to the AA GSO in the past 18 months after we had research applications approved for the purpose of viewing the archives for any correspondence/information between AA GSO and other individuals/groups/fellowships dealing with problems other than alcohol. We spent a total of four days scouring over everything we could find on Addicts Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous (4 distinct efforts - New York, California, Cleveland and Montreal), and others. The only correspondence we found from Narcotics Anonymous World Services to the GSO were: 1. A response from the GSO in 1989 to a request for any correspondence/information about NA 2. An undated response to a similar request that references the 1989 request We did not come across a letter from NA World Services making any such request. On the contrary, much of what we discovered involved correspondence that led up to the Bill's 1958 Grapevine article: Problems Other Than Alcohol: What Can Be Done About Them?" There is one other piece of correspondence that is noteworthy. The following letter is from an employee, at the time, of the NA World Service Office, which was submitted to the Grapevine. See below. Thanks, Chris B. Raleigh, North Carolina ============================================ March 1986 Vol. 42 No. 10 Another Vision for You I am not a member of Alcoholics Anonymous, but I am among the millions of people who owe our lives to the Twelve Steps of recovery. Bill W.'s vision of other societies similar to AA forming to address problems other than alcoholism is very much a reality today. Thanks to the inspiration and vision of your co-founders, and the current generosity of your Fellowship in sharing its experience, a few of these other Fellowships are becoming strong, well-developed programs of recovery, with a network of local and world services, hotlines, literature, old-timers, service centers employing special workers -- all the necessary ingredients. As a member of one of those other Fellowships, I'm writing to the Grapevine as an outside writer, but the issue I'm addressing is not an outside issue. I'm writing about addicts attending AA meetings -- perhaps an issue that most of us are tired of dealing with -- but one whose solution is finally at hand. After years of internal controversy in AA (and in fellowships modeled after AA), just maybe we're at a place where the turmoil can stop. The solution envisioned by Bill W., articulated in your pamphlet Problems Other Than Alcohol, can finally be implemented with confidence. I am a drug addict who came to AA in 1978 looking for help. When the suggestion that I go to AA to address my drug problem was first put to me I was puzzled. "My problem is this other drug. Why would I go to AA?" It was explained to me that AA is what works, and no one could kick me out. No one has the authority to do that. "Just substitute alcohol for your drug," I was told, "and it will work." I did that. I went to AA for a period of about four years. I learned the "passwords" that would not offend the oldtimers, and I made a place for myself in your Fellowship. I was also introduced to Narcotics Anonymous from the very beginning, but in 1978 NA had very little literature, no old-timers locally to serve as sponsors, no network of services for its groups. I went to that NA meeting to identify more fully and share more fully, and I went to AA for the substance of recovery. Those were the realities of being a recovering drug addict in the upper Midwest in the late seventies. As I stayed around and observed both Fellowships closely, I could not miss the great dilemma that was brewing about us addicts in AA. I did not take this problem personally, because I read the words of Bill W. and they made sense. The primary purpose of every AA group is to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers. As AA groups try to carry their message to anyone else, that atmosphere of identification for the alcoholic is weakened. If an alcoholic walks into an AA meeting and encounters a discussion among junkies, gamblers, overeaters, or whatever, that alcoholic may just miss his shot at the miracle. I slowly became more and more aware that I was the outsider in AA; that old-timer who got irritated when I shared about my drug use was on his home ground, and I was straining his Traditions. It has been a tough issue for us all. But what were the AA people to do in 1978? Throw us out? Even if that were possible in AA, who had the heart? "What would the Master do?" it says in the "Twelve and Twelve." Where would we go? Most of our NA groups were not part of a worldwide structure that could sustain us in recovery. In many places, the compromise measure seems to have been to just overlook the issue as best as we could and go on about our recovery. And the wisdom of the co-founder has been borne out again. Many AA groups have become a mix of alcoholics and people addicted to other drugs, and many of those NA groups' growth has been stunted. They were not seriously regarded as part of a separate Fellowship capable of sustaining recovery. The service of recovering addicts went into AA services. As addicts got some time in recovery, they became AA sponsors. The texture of the AA community was slowly drifting from a clear atmosphere of identification for the alcoholic, and the texture of those isolated NA groups was remaining pretty static. With the eighties came a vast change in that scenario. More and more recovering addicts began to turn our attention to the developing Fellowship of NA. We got busy writing literature, developing our services at every level, refining our own thinking and language for our own principles of recovery. We had learned so much from our forerunners in AA, and now we were breaking some new ground. It has been an exciting period of new hope for the addict who still suffers. And ironically, maybe it is an exciting period of renewed hope for the alcoholic who still suffers too. By going exclusively to NA, doing my service in NA, growing in my understanding of the NA message, I have left the AA groups just a little freer to focus on their own primary purpose. That is not personal. It's sound principle. Today NA is thriving. We have our own basic text, and we're in the later stages of producing a book on our Steps and Traditions. We are experiencing the kind of booming growth that AA experienced in the forties. Our world services are coming together in a way that can only be attributed to a loving God, expressing himself in our group conscience. It has been a time of the joy and pain of rapid growth for us, and we expect this growth rate to continue for some time to come. I guess I'm really saying a number of things. First, thank you AA, for your wisdom in taking the stand that you can best help the addict not by allowing us to become members, but by offering us the model of your program and inspiring us to build our own. Even though the realities of life have sometimes forced us all to compromise, your Conference and your written word never lost perspective. That vision is now bearing fruit. I also want to assure you that strong, stable, long-term recovery is available today in NA, so the days of worrying that addicts are just being kicked out into the street are over. Many addicts are pointed in our direction by AA groups adhering to their own primary purpose. A fast friendship, based on "cooperation, not affiliation," is cropping up between us everywhere. It goes without saying that these words are one member's views -- I do not speak for my Fellowship any more than these other articles speak for yours. But let's all look at these issues now from the vantage point of our best spiritual vision of the future. The time for coming to rest on this issue is finally at hand. R. H. Northridge, California ============================================ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7224. . . . . . . . . . . . Stepping Stones archives microfilmed digitized, put on line From: John Moore . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/14/2011 2:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A project is underway to microfilm the Stepping Stones archival material, digitize it, and eventually make it available to researchers on line. See this article by Rob Ryser entitled "Bedford archives of AA co-founder to be preserved" http://www.lohud.com/article/20110314/NEWS02/103140343/Bedford-archives-AA-c o-fo\ %5Cunder-preserved?odyssey=nav [8]|head BEDFORD HILLS — Anyone who has ever loved a drunk knows how much a pledge to quit drinking is worth. But these are not ordinary broken promises. The quit-drinking oaths that a certain Bill Wilson swore to his wife 80 years ago on the family Bible are now considered so valuable to the Alcoholics Anonymous story and to American history in general that they can no longer be entrusted merely to safe storage here at the couple's historic home and grounds. "Those archives are a national treasure," said Manhattan writer Susan Cheever, who used the archives extensively for her 2004 biography of Wilson. "AA is one of the most extraordinary things that has ever happened in our world, and he was one of the three or four most important men of the 20th century." A $175,000 campaign is under way to permanently protect the famous broken oaths and some 120,000 other writings of Wilson, the co-founder of AA, and his wife, Lois, the co-founder of the Al-Anon movement for families of alcoholics. "In the grand scheme of things, these are priceless," said Annah Perch, executive director of the Stepping Stones Foundation, the nonprofit that manages the Wilson legacy. "The sooner this stuff goes off-site and becomes microfilmed and digitized, the sooner we will be safe from a natural disaster." The idea is not only to make duplicates of the original documents as insurance against fire or flood, but to create a digital archive and put it online. That would make the archive much more widely available than it is now. As it is today, scholars and authors must apply for access to the documents. For everyone else, getting close to the first couple of recovery is restricted to a few items that were recently made available at a new Welcome Center on the Stepping Stones grounds. The listing of their Dutch Colonial home on the National Register of Historic Places helped raise the profile of their mission in the middle part of the last decade. But the real impact of the 40 years the couple lived locally continues to play out in the lives of recovering alcoholics and their families. Wilson proclaimed alcoholism a disease three decades before the American Medical Association did. The 12-step recovery solution that Wilson and co-founder Dr. Bob Smith created reversed the historically held belief that hard drunks could not stay sober, and it became the standard treatment in U.S. hospitals and clinics. "It is the only way we have to deal with addiction, and we live in an age of addiction," said Cheever, whose memoir of her father, John Cheever, documented the writer's battle with alcohol. "Bill Wilson truly changed the way we think about ourselves." All the more reason to protect the archives, said filmmaker Kevin Hanlon. "I think it is impossible to understand Bill Wilson's life without these remarkable archives," said Hanlon, who recently finished shooting in Bedford Hills for a documentary about Wilson. "It is a story that resonates for an awful lot of people who don't suffer from alcoholism or know people who are alcoholics, although it strikes me how few people there are who don't know someone who has struggled with alcohol." About one-third of the archive collection has already been sent to the company doing the preservation work with $25,000 that has already been raised for the effort. "We had so much faith in our donor community in how they have responded to our needs in the past that we started the project without all of the money in hand," Perch said. __________________________________ Sent in by John Moore South Burlington, Vermont (contact.johnmoore at gmail.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7225. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Is this legend about NA writing AA true? From: stalban2001 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2011 6:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As a former member of the Narcotics Anonymous Board of Trustees and an NA member with 36 years of recovery, I can assure you that no such letter was ever sent to my watch or by anyone I know. While I'm no longer active at the world level, I know the people serving there as trusted servant and special service workers, and I'm confident that they have a good enough understanding of the Traditions not to have written such a preposterous letter. However, I can't speak for all our members at all times. It's possible that an over-zealous NA member whose AA experience was not positive wrote something like that out of ignorance. By the way, NA's "world headquarters," based in California, are known variously as the World Service Office (WSO) or NA World Services (NAWS). NAWS is used as a collective to include the World Service Conference (WSC). - - - - P.S. That Bulletin was written by the NA Board of Trustees in 1985-86 as part of a series of essays clarifying issues pertaining to the development of Narcotics Anonymous and its philosophy of recovery. Its provenance is quite clear and is still reprinted by NAWS for use by NA members. Its tone regarding AA is quite respectful and nowhere do I see it enjoining the AA Fellowship to "stop killing our people by telling them they can join AA." _________________________________________ Original message #7216 from "David" (Inkman3 at webtv.net) I have heard a story about a purported letter sent from NA headquarters to AA's GSO saying, in effect, Stop killing our people by telling them they can join AA. My question is: is this just an urban legend or does such a letter exist? And if it does exist, where could I find a copy of it? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7226. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is this legend about NA writing AA true? From: Angela Corelis . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2011 8:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Bob Cohen To: Angela Corelis This wasn't written to AA but as an internal information to NA members and anyone that wanted to read it. We actually use part of this in the NA opening statement that the Sunshine Group reads prior to the regular readings. Drugs alone didn't cover enough but they changed it to addiction -- that puts everyone on a level playing field, in fact one of the main reading states that: "We don't care what or how much you used, who your connections were, how much or how little you have, just what you want to do and how we can help." NA started because some well meaning AAs tried to help frustrated addicts that couldn't identify in AA, and helped them form groups, as they were dually addicted themselves. Even Bill Wilson begged addicts to start an NA of some type long before NA started, as he saw that addiction could be worse than alcoholism alone, which is written in the 12 and 12 I believe. Bob ___________________________________________ Re: Is this legend about NA writing AA true? >Hi all,This was not a letter to AA. This was simply a Bulletin from NA's Word Services prepared for their own membership (from 1985). You can view it on the NA website [OR SEE THE COPY OF THAT BULLETIN BELOW] :http://www.wsoinc.com/?ID=bulletins-bull13-r I have seen this before and for the life of me I don't see how anyone could interpret this as a message to AA telling them to "Stop killing our people by telling them they can join AA" .... To me this bulletin is stressing respect between the fellowships and simply outlining a different philosophy when it comes to the First Step. I don't see anything contentious in there. In fact, it really seems to me that the bulletin is calling out their own members to check their attitudes toward AA and stop fostering any anti AA feelings. The fellowships have so much in common and mature members in both have a mutual respect for each other and see the commonality. We're cut from the same cloth (Bill said we were "cousins" to the drug addict) and we're both striving for the same thing. Thanks,Mike Margetis Brunswick, Maryland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7227. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Is this legend about NA writing AA true? From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2011 8:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you, Chris, for publishing this excellent article. Maybe AA will come to the public realization someday that poly-addiction is far more common than addiction to any one drug alone. Also, most people have no idea about Bill Wilson's passion for scientific information. I personally have no doubt that he would eventually have realized the massive development of poly-addiction, and taken steps to educate his, and our, beloved AA community how they might reorganize themselves. Shalom - Sally Brown Rev Sally Brown, MS, MDiv Board Certified Clinical Chaplain United Church of Christ coauthor with David R Brown: A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous 1470 Sand Hill Rd, 310 www.sallyanddavidbrown.com Palo Alto, CA 94304 Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 ________________________________________ For a copy of the article, see Message no. 7223 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7223 From "Chris Budnick" (cbudnick at nc.rr.com) In this message, Chris gives a copy of a letter "from an employee, at the time, of the NA World Service Office, which was submitted to the Grapevine" in Vol. 42 No. 10 (March 1986), entitled "Another Vision for You" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7228. . . . . . . . . . . . God as we understood Him: atheists and agnostics in AA From: intuited . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/5/2011 11:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn, I'm puzzled that an atheist would resonate with the term "as we understood Him." I would have thought a male gender entity/deity would not fit an atheist's philosophy. Was he/she happy with this male gender terminology? Was his/her story published? I recently reviewed the April 2009 issue of the AAGrapevine which featured Agnostics in AA. Each story spoke of a definite spiritual experience. As I read the stories I began to think that the term agnostic was more aptly being used as a code word to mean non-Christian. The stories were full of references to a very vital spirituality, utilizing many eastern religious beliefs interconnected with meditation or energy. They were very moving stories and not what I would expect of someone who was without certainty. The Conference Committee on Literature is in the process of publishing a pamphlet "which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous." This 61st Conference is entertaining a request to reconsider this action. I am very curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these terms. Is it an easy way to talk about "other than Christian" spirituality? Amelia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7229. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: God as we understood Him: the atheist''s story From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2011 4:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA historians tell us that the words "as we understood Him" were inserted into the twelve steps to allow an atheist among the early AA group to remain a member of the group. In the preceding message, Amelia asked: was his/her story published? The atheist was Jim Burwell, and there are a lot of messages on the AAHistoryLovers site talking about his story. If you go to our Message Board at http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages and put Burwell into the little search box at the top, you can call up 108 different messages talking about him. Henry (Hank) Parkhurst is often included in a discussion of this issue, but he and Burwell held quite different points of view, at least in my reading of the documents from that era, particularly what Hank himself wrote when the book project was first being discussed. Burwell was a complete atheist, or at least was very doubtful about any kind of God existing. But Hank's position was more complicated. He regarded the proposed Big Book project as the writing, NOT of a complete description of the whole program, but only of an introductory book to entice people into the AA program. He felt that talking about God in the book would scare too many people away, so he wanted the book to only talk about the psychological aspects of the program. After alcoholics had been persuaded by that book to start coming to AA meetings, they could be gently exposed in gradual fashion to the serious spiritual content of the program and helped in developing a useful understanding of God. AMONG THE PREVIOUS MESSAGES, SEE FOR EXAMPLE: http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm The Vicious Cycle 2nd edition p. 238, 3rd edition p. 238, 4th edition p. 219 Jim Burwell, Maryland - - - - Jim was twelfth stepped into the fellowship on January 8, 1938. But he had a slip in June of that year. His last drink was June 16, 1938. - - - - Jim is usually given credit for the third tradition, that the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. He also is credited with the use of "God as we understood Him" in the Steps. (Jim, an agnostic, was militantly opposed to too much talk of God in the Big Book, but he said later that his agnostic stance had mellowed over the years.) - - - - The Unbeliever Original manuscript p. 7, 1st edition p. 194 Henry [Hank] Parkhurst NY - - - - Hank was the first man Bill Wilson was successful in sobering up after returning from his famous trip to Akron where he met Dr. Bob. Thus Hank was A.A. #2 in New York prior to resuming drinking about four years later. His original date of sobriety was either October or November 1935. - - - - Hank was a salesman, an agnostic, and a former Standard Oil of New Jersey executive, who had lost his job because of drinking. - - - - He and Jim Burwell ("The Vicious Cycle"), led the fight against too much talk of God in the 12 steps, which resulted in the compromise "God as we understood Him." - - - - No one knows exactly when Hank had started drinking again, but in the diary Lois Wilson kept there are various September 1939 entries that mention that Hank was drunk. He did get back on the program for a short time at some later date but it didn't last. Nevertheless, A.A. owes Hank a debt of gratitude for his many contributions during his all too short period of sobriety. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6515 During the writing of the Big Book, Fitz insisted that the book should express Christian doctrines and use Biblical terms and expressions. Hank and Jim B. opposed him. The compromise was "God as we understood Him." http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6588 If you listen to Jimmy Burwell's tapes (Jimmy "The Atheist") he talks about how as early as 1937 the drunks among the early Oxford Groupers were meeting in Bill's house at 182 Clinton Street, and often at Stewart's Cafeteria nearby. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5489 The story began when Bob B., a paint store owner in Richmond, got sober by visiting a business associate in Philadelphia, a man named JIM BURWELL who had gotten sober in 1938 and had started A.A. in that city. Jim's story in the Big Book is called "The Vicious Cycle" (it is on page 219 in the current 4th edition). Jim was the early New York A.A. group's first "self-proclaimed atheist," the one who insisted that the phrase "as we understood Him" had to be added to the reference to God in Steps 3 and 11. __________________________________________ Original message from Amelia (intuited at earthlink.net) Glenn, I'm puzzled that an atheist would resonate with the term "as we understood Him." I would have thought a male gender entity/deity would not fit an atheist's philosophy. Was he/she happy with this male gender terminology? Was his/her story published? I recently reviewed the April 2009 issue of the AAGrapevine which featured Agnostics in AA. Each story spoke of a definite spiritual experience. As I read the stories I began to think that the term agnostic was more aptly being used as a code word to mean non-Christian. The stories were full of references to a very vital spirituality, utilizing many eastern religious beliefs interconnected with meditation or energy. They were very moving stories and not what I would expect of someone who was without certainty. The Conference Committee on Literature is in the process of publishing a pamphlet "which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous." This 61st Conference is entertaining a request to reconsider this action. I am very curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these terms. Is it an easy way to talk about "other than Christian" spirituality? Amelia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7230. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: God as we understood Him: goddess worship From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2011 4:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a preceding message, Amelia wrote: "Glenn, I'm puzzled that an atheist would resonate with the term 'as we understood Him.' I would have thought a male gender entity/deity would not fit an atheist's philosophy. Was he/she happy with this male gender terminology?" - - - - HIM VS. HER Amelia, at the time the Big Book was written, teachers who taught English grammar would instruct their students that: (1) when you knew that a person was female, you used the pronouns she and her. (2) when you knew that a person was male, you used the pronouns he and him. (3) But he and him were the generic gender-neutral pronouns, so you also used he and him if you did not know whether the person was male or female. So in 1939, the year the Big Book was published, the phrase "God as we understood Him" could be read as referring to either a male God or a female Goddess. But the world had already begun to change. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_movement The first wave of the modern feminist movement concluded (in the United States) with the passage in 1919-20 (right after the First World War) of the Nineteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, which granted women the right to vote. The second wave of the U.S. feminist movement began after the Second World War. By the 1970's and 1980's, the feminist movement was regularly arguing that the traditional grammatical conventions were demeaning of women. You should only use he and him in situations where you knew that the person was male. If you meant what you were saying to refer to both males and females, you had to use phrases like "he or she," "him or her," and other phrases of that sort. (One thing to keep in mind though, when discussing this issue, is that the gender of the third person singular pronoun was for the most part only really a big issue in English in the 1970's and 80's. In European languages like French, German, Spanish, Italian, and so on, that still assign a grammatical gender to all nouns, grammatical gender is not felt to be the same as sexual gender. And in some of the other languages of the world, like Finnish, so I am told, there are third person singular pronouns which can refer to either a male or a female, which neatly eliminates the problem.) - - - - GODDESS WORSHIP Like the him vs. her issue, except for a few relatively isolated examples, it was not until the 1970's and 1980's that Goddess worship became much talked about in the western world. I doubt that anybody among the early AA group in 1939 would have thought of Goddess worship as a possibility. It would have been highly odd at that point, at any rate. So it was not until the 1970's and 1980's that any big problem could have been created by large enough numbers of AA members in the western world choosing to worship goddesses like Isis or Kali or the Triple Goddess (the Maid, the Mother, and the Crone). The original historical precedent that was set in 1938-1939 for interpreting the phrase "God as we understood Him" would nevertheless make it clear that using feminine symbols and metaphors to refer to your higher power would be perfectly legitimate in AA. If that is the way you understand God, then that is the way you should worship her. - - - - PERSONAL VS. IMPERSONAL SUPREME BEING As a side point, in a book I just wrote, I argue that the real issue in western religion has always been the same one which you see in eastern religions. Some kind of higher power or supreme principle or architect of the universe or ground of being necessarily exists. The question is whether this is an impersonal absolute or a highly personal god or goddess. See Glenn F. Chesnut, God and Spirituality paperback: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-k eywo\ rds=chesnut+god+and+spirituality&x=13&y=15 [9] kindle: http://www.amazon.com/God-Spirituality-Philosophical-Essays-ebook/dp/B0046ZR N82/\ ref=sr_1_cc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300217940&sr=1-1-catcorr [10] In the Christian tradition over the past two thousand years, some theologians (like St. Augustine, John Wesley, and the St. Macarius who wrote the Fifty Spiritual Homilies) had warmly personalistic conceptions of God. But there were many other famous Christian theologians who regarded the higher power as completely (or nearly completely) impersonal. St. Denis' higher power (c. 500 A.D.) was completely impersonal, and the God described by St. Gregory of Nyssa in the fourth century was almost completely impersonal, as was the God described by St. Thomas Aquinas in the thirteenth century. Paul Tillich (Reinhold Niebuhr's colleague at Union Theological Seminary in New York City) taught that God was a completely impersonal ground of being. In the AA tradition, Richmond Walker, the author of the Twenty-four Hour book, taught a God who was warmly personal, and who wanted to be friends with us for the same reason that we wanted to be friends with him -- we felt isolated and lonely all by ourselves. (A really fascinating view of God and the reason for the creation of this universe.) But do not fall into the trap of believing that it is only us "moderns" who reject the fundamentalist Protestant belief in God as an old man with a white beard sitting on a throne, and that it is only us "moderns" who believe in esoteric New Age spirituality and are fascinated by Asian religions. Emmet Fox taught (in his book on "The Sermon on the Mount") that God in and of himself is just a bunch of eternal laws and principles, and that God becomes personal only in and through us individual human beings, when we acted as agents of those higher laws of love and positive thinking. - - - - HINDUISM And Fox's other most popular book, "Power through Constructive Thinking," taught the doctrine of reincarnation, and Richmond Walker began the 24 Hour book with a quote from the Hindu tradition, to make the point that AA people could draw from all the spiritual traditions of the world. - - - - THE HEBREW BIBLE And the Hebrew Bible (what Christians call the Old Testament) actually used feminine imagery to describe God more often than it used the metaphor of God as a Father. In the New Testament, Jesus was described as the incarnation of both the male Logos principle and the female Sophia principle: that is, Jesus was explicitly said to be not only the "Word" but also the "Wisdom" of God, referring to Sophia, Lady Wisdom, who in one passage in the Old Testament was described as the Creator of the world -- see http://hindsfoot.org/spiritu.html . So it would be a mistake to try to argue that God is always portrayed as male in the Judeo-Christian tradition. _________________________________________ Original message from Amelia (intuited at earthlink.net) Glenn, I'm puzzled that an atheist would resonate with the term "as we understood Him." I would have thought a male gender entity/deity would not fit an atheist's philosophy. Was he/she happy with this male gender terminology? Was his/her story published? I recently reviewed the April 2009 issue of the AAGrapevine which featured Agnostics in AA. Each story spoke of a definite spiritual experience. As I read the stories I began to think that the term agnostic was more aptly being used as a code word to mean non-Christian. The stories were full of references to a very vital spirituality, utilizing many eastern religious beliefs interconnected with meditation or energy. They were very moving stories and not what I would expect of someone who was without certainty. The Conference Committee on Literature is in the process of publishing a pamphlet "which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous." This 61st Conference is entertaining a request to reconsider this action. I am very curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these terms. Is it an easy way to talk about "other than Christian" spirituality? Amelia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7231. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: God as we understood Him: agnostics From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2011 4:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a preceding message, Amelia wrote: "I recently reviewed the April 2009 issue of the AAGrapevine which featured Agnostics in AA. Each story spoke of a definite spiritual experience. As I read the stories I began to think that the term agnostic was more aptly being used as a code word to mean non-Christian. The stories were full of references to a very vital spirituality, utilizing many eastern religious beliefs interconnected with meditation or energy. They were very moving stories and not what I would expect of someone who was without certainty. The Conference Committee on Literature is in the process of publishing a pamphlet 'which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous.' This 61st Conference is entertaining a request to reconsider this action. I am very curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these terms. Is it an easy way to talk about 'other than Christian' spirituality?" The Greek prefix a- means no, not, un- >>The term "theist" refers to someone who believes that God (Theos) exists. >>The term "a-theist" therefore refers to someone who believes that there is no God, that God (Theos) does not exist. >>Ginosko in ancient Greek meant "I know," so an "a-gnostic" is (literally) someone caught in a state of "un-knowing." - - - - THE RISE OF WESTERN ATHEISM IN THE 1840'S In a book I just wrote, I talk on pp. 123-124 about the Rise of Modern Atheism in the 1840's. See Glenn F. Chesnut, God and Spirituality paperback: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-k eywo\ rds=chesnut+god+and+spirituality&x=13&y=15 [9] kindle: http://www.amazon.com/God-Spirituality-Philosophical-Essays-ebook/dp/B0046ZR N82/\ ref=sr_1_cc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300217940&sr=1-1-catcorr [10] TRADITIONAL THEISTS: Some people in the western world rejected these new atheistic ideas completely, and kept on trying to defend the old conceptualities of the ancient and medieval worlds: the Bible was literally true, the church authorities were infallible, people walked on water and rose from the dead, and so on. THE NEW ATHEISTS (1840 and afterwards): Other people in the western world embraced these new atheistic ideas enthusiastically. A new world of science -- where the scientists were rapidly gaining infallible truth and explaining all things -- was going to lead the human race out of the darkness of the past. There would no longer be any uncontrollable natural phenomena killing people (like earthquakes and tsunamis?), everyone in the world would be given excellent health care (through universal health care) so that no one would ever get sick and die any longer, our machines (oil drilling rigs and nuclear power plants) would never malfunction and kill people, and so on. "AGNOSTICS": But there were many people caught in the middle: they had been brought up with traditional religious beliefs and did not want to let go of them, and yet they had no real answers to all the attacks that the atheists were making on their most cherished articles of faith. And there were others who had tired of the whole debate, and insisted that they weren't going to believe anything at all, past this point, without some kind of scientific evidence to support it. - - - - THE WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE ON AGNOSTICISM See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism Thomas Henry Huxley gave a speech at a meeting of the Metaphysical Society in 1876, in which he coined to word "agnostic" (not-knowing, un-knowing, non-knowing) to describe his philosophy, which was a rejection of ALL claims of spiritual or mystical knowledge. "Huxley identified agnosticism not as a creed but rather as a method of skeptical, evidence-based inquiry." But in the many years that followed, the word "agnostic" got adapted to describe all sorts of different approaches to religion. The Wikipedia article describes some of these varieties: =========================================== *Agnostic atheism: Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not have belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know that a deity does not exist. *Agnostic theism: The view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence. *Apathetic or Pragmatic agnosticism: The view that there is no proof of either the existence or nonexistence of any deity, but since any deity that may exist appears unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the question is largely academic. *Ignosticism: The view that a coherent definition of a deity must be put forward before the question of the existence of a deity can be meaningfully discussed. If the chosen definition is not coherent, the ignostic holds the noncognitivist view that the existence of a deity is meaningless or empirically untestable. A.J. Ayer, Theodore Drange, and other philosophers see both atheism and agnosticism as incompatible with ignosticism on the grounds that atheism and agnosticism accept "a deity exists" as a meaningful proposition which can be argued for or against. An ignostic cannot even say whether he/she is a theist or a nontheist until a sufficient definition of theism is put forth. *Strong agnosticism (also called "hard," "closed," "strict," or "permanent agnosticism"): The view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of a deity or deities and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another subjective experience. A strong agnostic would say, "I cannot know whether a deity exists or not, and neither can you." *Weak agnosticism (also called "soft," "open," "empirical," or "temporal agnosticism"): The view that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable, therefore one will withhold judgment until/if any evidence is available. A weak agnostic would say, "I don't know whether any deities exist or not, but maybe one day when there is evidence we can find something out." =========================================== As far as I can tell, there are very few AA members who genuinely understand what the term "agnostic" originally meant, that is, what the word meant between 1876 and 1939. Maybe a handful, but not many. And as far as I can see, the term "agnostic" has now come to mean so many different things, that it hardly has any real meaning left at all. So Amelia, I think that you are probably correct when you say that, at New York AA headquarters, the term AGNOSTIC is "being used as a code word to mean non-Christian," that is, as a "way to talk about 'other than Christian' spirituality." But for myself, I think that using the word "agnostic" in this way is a misuse of terms, because the chapter in the Big Book called "We Agnostics" was an attempt to deal with the skeptical position which Thomas Henry Huxley put forward in 1876. If we want a pamphlet talking about Hindu, Buddhist, New Age, Native American spirituality, worship of the Triple Goddess, wicca, modern California gnostic and kabbalistic groups, and other things of that sort, that they should have titled it something different, like perhaps "Varieties of AA Spirituality." And I also think that some of the hostility toward the pamphlet (among a lot of AA members) might lessen to a degree if it were retitled in that fashion. But that's just my two cents worth. __________________________________________ Original message from Amelia (intuited at earthlink.net) Glenn, I'm puzzled that an atheist would resonate with the term "as we understood Him." I would have thought a male gender entity/deity would not fit an atheist's philosophy. Was he/she happy with this male gender terminology? Was his/her story published? I recently reviewed the April 2009 issue of the AAGrapevine which featured Agnostics in AA. Each story spoke of a definite spiritual experience. As I read the stories I began to think that the term agnostic was more aptly being used as a code word to mean non-Christian. The stories were full of references to a very vital spirituality, utilizing many eastern religious beliefs interconnected with meditation or energy. They were very moving stories and not what I would expect of someone who was without certainty. The Conference Committee on Literature is in the process of publishing a pamphlet "which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous." This 61st Conference is entertaining a request to reconsider this action. I am very curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these terms. Is it an easy way to talk about "other than Christian" spirituality? Amelia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7232. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Looking for a photo of Jim Newton From: oneserene1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/12/2011 8:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If you can get ahold of Mr. Newton's book 'Uncommon Friends' there are shots of him and Bud within it (as well as photos of Messrs Edison, Ford, Firestone Sr, Carrel and Lindbergh). There is also an account of Bud's drinking problem in the book. It is available from amazon.com. Michael R. - - - - "Robert Stonebraker" wrote: > > Could someone kindly send me a picture of the Jim Newton who helped Bud Firestone find sobriety? > > Bob S. > > Mail to: > (rstonebraker212 at comcast.net) > > Bob Stonebraker > 212 SW 18th Street > Richmond, Indiana 47374 > phone (765) 935-0130 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7233. . . . . . . . . . . . Thanks for the photos of Jim Newton From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2011 4:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear History Lovers Group, I would like to offer thanks to Michael R. for his suggestion, and to the many others who have sent pictures of Jim Newton and Bud Firestone. . . . I now have all the photos I needed for a new book I have recently finished: "A PRE-AA HISTORY BOOK, A Study of Synchronic Events Between Years 1926 and 1935 which culminated in the Birth of Alcoholics Anonymous." It is still undergoing a final proof reading, but will have a web address soon. Of course, I can send it to you via PDF upon request, but it is just over 6 MBs. Bob S., Richmond, Indiana (rstonebraker212 at comcast.net) - - - - Original message from: oneserene1 Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 Subject: Re: Looking for a photo of Jim Newton If you can get ahold of Mr. Newton's book 'Uncommon Friends' there are shots of him and Bud within it (as well as photos of Messrs Edison, Ford, Firestone Sr, Carrel and Lindbergh). There is also an account of Bud's drinking problem in the book. It is available from amazon.com. Michael R. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7234. . . . . . . . . . . . Red-Headed A.A. nurse Known as Teddy From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2011 4:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I came across in the "A.A.'s Legacy of Service" pamphlet a reference to a person I had not heard of before. Bill writes, "In New York, Knickerbocker Hospital provided a ward under the care of our first friend in medicine, Dr. William Duncan Silkworth, where he was assisted by a redheaded A.A. nurse known as Teddy." Can someone fill me in on this person? It infers Teddy was an A.A., a nurse, and working in the alcoholic ward. From Tommy H in Baton Rouge (still more or less redheaded and married to an alcoholic nurse, also in recovery) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7235. . . . . . . . . . . . Changes in the chapter To Wives From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2011 1:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Group, I was asked a question I could not fully answer and was hoping someone could help me finish my answer. It seems there were some changes in the wording in part of a paragraph in Chapter 8 "To The Wives." I am looking for anyone who might have access to all 16 printings the 1st edition Big Book. In particular I am looking for the wording in printings 2 thru 7. I have the different wording from the manuscript, 1st printing and printings 8 thru 16. So all I need is the changes in printings 2 thru 7. Here is what I have so far: Original Manuscript: "We make this recommendation with some confidence. About a year ago a certain state institution released six chronic alcoholics. It was fully expected they would all be back in a few weeks. Only one of them has returned. The others had no relapse at all.The power of God goes deep!" 1st Edition 1st printing page 127: "We make this recommendation with some confidence. About a year ago a certain state institution released four chronic alcoholics. It was fully expected they would all be back in a few weeks. Only one of them has returned. The others had no relapse at all.The power of God goes deep!" 1st Edition; 8th thru 13th printing page 127: "We make this recommendation with some confidence. For several years we have been working with alcoholics committed to institutions. During 1939 two hospitals in New Jersey released 17 alcoholics. Eleven have had no relapse whatever-none of them have returned to the asylum. The power of God goes deep!" 2nd, 3rd and 4th Editions page 114: "We make this recommendation with some confidence. For years we have been working with alcoholics committed to institutions. Since this book was first published, A.A. has released thousands of alcoholics from asylums and hospitals of every kind. The majority have never returned. The power of God goes deep!" Any help will be appreciated Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7236. . . . . . . . . . . . Emmet Fox''s secretary From: lanhamcook . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2011 3:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In wikipedia it states that: "Fox's secretary was the mother of one of the men who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous co-founder Bill W., and partly as a result of this connection early AA groups often went to hear Fox. His writing, especially "The Sermon on the Mount," became popular in AA." I was curious to know if anyone knows man was who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous? Anybody able to shed some light on this? thanks JLC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7237. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Red-Headed A.A. nurse Known as Teddy From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2011 12:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Tommy, I believe if you check AA comes of Age and Language of the Heart you will find several references to Teddy. Regards, John B IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7238. . . . . . . . . . . . Anne Ripley Smith''s date of birth From: OedipusTax . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2011 9:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I believe the correct date of Anne Ripley Smith's birth is March 3, 1881. Listed that way in Wikipedia, www.barefootworld, and www.trueknowledge.com - - - - From GFC the moderator: NO, CORRECT DATE OF BIRTH SEEMS TO BE MARCH 21, 1881 AAHistoryLovers message no. 1145 says March 21, 1881: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1145 Find A Grave gives her year of birth as 1881: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=5769885 This larger photo of the tombstone clearly shows her year of birth as 1881: http://www.barefootsworld.net/the_smiths.html Arthur S. Narrative Timeline of AA History, the top AA date list, thoroughly researched, says Mar 21, 1881: http://silkworth.net/timelines/timelines_public/timelines_public.html >> Mar 21, 1881 Anne Robinson Ripley was born in >> the Chicago suburb of Oak Park, Illinois to >> Joseph and Joyce Pierce Ripley.(Grapevine Jun 1950) (It should be noted that this issue of the Grapevine came out only a year after Anne's death, and that it also came out BEFORE Dr. Bob died, so it is probably trustworthy about the date of birth. Or at any rate, it is the one I would go with.) Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7239. . . . . . . . . . . . Pre-AA History Book From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2011 2:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA History Lovers Group, I have just finished writing a new AA history book concerning the period between 1926 and our actual beginning in 1935. The 28 pages can be downloaded from this address, it may take about a minute to open: http://www.aamuncie.org/files/Pre_AA_History_Book_2011.pdf I hope you enjoy the book. All information has been researched to the best of my ability, with much help from AA historians around the country. Should you decide to print these 28 pages, I have found it preferable to use photo paper. It is convenient - and inexpensive - to place the pages in a 24-page "Presentation Cover Book" with transparent sleeves (available at most office supply stores). The advantage being that you can add/subtract new information at will. The paradoxical thing about AA history is that something new is always popping up. Bob S. ****************************** In our history lies our hope! ****************************** IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7240. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Magazine article: critics can be our benefactors From: looking@pigsfly.com> . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2011 6:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There were two articles by Arthur H. Cain, which can be read in full in the AAHistoryLovers (they were posted back in May 2003): Arthur H. Cain, "Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or Cure?" Harper's Magazine, February 1963 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/994 Dr. Arthur H. Cain, "Alcoholics Can Be Cured--Despite A.A." Saturday Evening Post, September 19, 1964 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1012 >> They were later copied from the AAHistoryLovers >> by Agent Orange and posted on his anti-AA website, see >> http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-ahcain.html The articles reach this conclusion: Alcoholics Anonymous should not be a cult for the retardation of the "arrested" alcoholic. I do not suggest for a moment that a single A.A. quit the fellowship. On the contrary, I strongly urge sticking with it. To anyone who is having trouble with alcohol I say: try A.A. first; it's the answer for most people. But to those who insist upon serving A.A. as if it were a holy and apostolic church, I say, Beware. Observe those members who seem genuinely serene. Talk with those who have been in A.A. a long time and who really practice "live and let live." Though A.A. is an important part of their lives, it is an adjunct, not the whole. They have crossed the bridge from arrested alcoholism to true recovery. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7241. . . . . . . . . . . . Two other Harper''s magazine articles (very different) From: edgarc@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/12/2011 12:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ronnie . . . Re your note below about the Arthur H. Cain article in Harper's magazine, it would only be fair to balance the Harper's/AA relationship by citing the beautiful piece in "Elpenor" in the October 1986 issue and the "Drunk's Club" piece by "Clancy Martin" in the January 2011 issue. Edgar C Sarasota, Florida IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7242. . . . . . . . . . . . Clancy W. Martin article in Harper''s Magazine From: Dan Roe . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/12/2011 8:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Clancy W. Martin, "The drunk's club: A.A., the cult that cures," in Harper's Magazine, January 2011. Although it will cost you to read it online, the text is given in the magazine's archive at http://www.harpers.org/archive/2011/01/0083250 Dan IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7243. . . . . . . . . . . . Arthur H. Cain''s apology to Bill Wilson for Saturday Evening Post article From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2011 4:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Mel B. (melb at accesstoledo.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3984 "The Saturday Evening Post did run a nasty article in the Sept. 19, 1964, issue by Arthur Cain, the same man who had written "Alcoholics Anonymous---Cult or Cure?" for the February 1963 Harper's Magazine. Cain wrote Bill a letter of apology for the Saturday Evening Post article and blamed its nastiness on the editors. Bill, though usually very kind to critics, did not cut him much slack in replying to Cain's apology." "Jerome Ellison was a regular contributor to The Saturday Evening Post and may have offered his article to them. But he did publish one in The Nation in 1964 and the title might have been "Is Alcoholics Anonymous a Cult?" He actually called me for a piece of information while he was writing the article, but he got it wrong when it was published. The matter in question concerned AA in southern Michigan and he somehow converted it to AA in the South!" "Jerry was upset with AA leadership because he had been fired as editor of the Grapevine after a short stay there. Bill took on the duty of firing him, since Bill had recommended him for the job. Jerry was an excellent writer and editor but he had trouble getting along with people at work." ____________________________________________ Arthur H. Cain, "Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or Cure?" Harper's Magazine, February 1963 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/994 Dr. Arthur H. Cain, "Alcoholics Can Be Cured--Despite A.A." Saturday Evening Post, September 19, 1964 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1012 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7244. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Magazine article: critics can be our benefactors From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2011 8:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From James Bliss and Mike (heat_cool2004) - - - - From: James Bliss (james.bliss at comcast.net) The Harper's magazine article by Arthur H. Cain could come across as self-serving for the author. In the same manner he is addressing the various things which he 'pinpointed' in AA and Alanon. But, reading the article, I can see some truth in the statements. AA members and meetings are far from perfect, and should never claim to be. The Big Book flatly states 'our hats are off' to the man who can make an about-face on his drinking through another method. It also states that we are to take advantage (use them for what they do best) of various resources (Physicians, Psychologists, Religious people). Also, we are not Doctors (as a whole although some members are). Etc. The article just points out the bad, and indicated a bad direction which might have been being taken back then and I have witnessed in the present as well in various meetings and members. It is an interesting read though. Jim - - - - From: "Mike" (heat_cool2004 at yahoo.com) Ron, I've found lots of yahoo groups devoted to blasting away at AA. I read a lot of the posts, it helps me focus on what mental quirks might nudge people back out. Lots of people in my area simply assume that someone who goes back out does it because 'it's what alkies do", or they just quit attending meetings. I've found that relapsers usually have some reason (real or fancied). ~Mike IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7245. . . . . . . . . . . . Is alcoholism a disease? Bill W. From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2011 5:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have read, I think on our list, that Wilson considered the terms illness, disease, malady, ailment synonymous. However, the quote indicates otherwise. From msg. 5695: The answer William Griffith Wilson gave when specifically asked about alcoholism as disease after he had addressed the annual meeting of the National Catholic Clergy Conference of Alcoholism in 1961: "We have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically speaking, it is not a disease entity. For example, there is no such thing as heart disease. Instead there are many separate heart ailments, or combinations of them. It is something like that with alcoholism. Therefore we did not wish to get in wrong with the medical profession by pronouncing alcoholism a disease entity. Therefore we always called it an illness, or a malady -- a far safer term for us to use." End of quote. I like his example of heart disease. We hear our reaction to alcohol as an allergy, but no medical scientist would call it that as it doesn't meet the medical definition of an allergy. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7246. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is alcoholism a disease? Bill W. From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2011 4:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Tommy, You raise some good, provocative questions. Just to give you my own reaction, I think that perhaps the fairest way to describe the discussions about whether alcoholism was a disease or an illness or whatever, might be to say that it was an "evolving concept" during AA's early years. And in 1960 to 61, the period you are looking at in your message, there were indeed some changes going on, as you noted. Dr. E. M. Jellinek for example only began supporting the use of the word "disease" fairly late -- he did not publish "The Disease Concept of Alcoholism" (New Haven: Hillhouse Press, 1960) for example, until a year before Bill W's comment which you quote. Bill Swegan told me -- if I remember correctly -- that Jellinek did not at all like the word "disease" however back in 1949, when he studied with Jellinek at the Yale School of Alcohol Studies. The word "disease" appears only three times in the A.A. Big Book. It was used, but it clearly wasn't the word they most preferred at that point in time (1939). It is mentioned first on page 64 in discussing alcoholism, then again at the beginning of the second part of the book in the story of Bill Dotson, the Akron lawyer who was Alcoholics Anonymous Number Three. When Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob visited Dotson in the hospital, they told him he had "a disease," and when he explained his conversion to his wife, he told her he felt that God had cured him "of this terrible disease." (AAWS, 1976: 187-188, 191) THE OTHER TERMS USED IN THE BIG BOOK: However, in spite of its avoidance of the specific word "disease," alcoholism is referred to over and over again throughout the book as a "sickness," a "malady," and an "ailment," and alcoholics are characterized as persons who are "sick" or "ill." In the Personal Stories section of the third edition of the Big Book, one of the subtitles is "How Forty-Three Alcoholics Recovered From Their Malady." Sick, sick person, or sickness on pages 18, 64, 67, 90, 92, 100, 101, 106, 107, 108, 115, 139, 140, 141, 147, 149, 153, 157, and 164. Ill or illness on pages 7, 18, 20, 30, 44, 92, 107, 108, 115, 118, 122, 139, 140, and 142. The words ail or ailment are used on pages 135, 139, 140. Malady appears on pages 23, 64, 92, 138, 139, and 165. ALLERGY: Although it is true that alcoholism is not an allergy in the modern understanding of allergic reactions (it does not produce a histamine response for example), there was one extremely important insight contained in that early speculation, that is usually totally ignored by the modern AA bashers who want to argue that alcoholics should be able to go back to "controlled drinking," or who sometimes even argue that they have "proven" that it can be done even by full-fledged chronic alcoholics. Once a person is allergic to bee stings, for example -- where their throats close up so they cannot breathe and they experience other life-threatening reactions of anaphylactic shock -- this cannot be "cured" so that the person can go back to being stung by bees. The body's reaction to bee stings permanently and irremediably changes, so that each subsequent bee sting produces an even worse reaction. It is the same thing with poison ivy allergic reactions and allergic reactions to strawberries, onions, wheat, or what have you -- you cannot ever go back to touching or eating those things and become "a normal social strawberry eater" or whatever you want to call it. Although alcoholism is not an allergic reaction in that sense, anybody who has seriously looked at modern scientific studies of the physiology of alcoholism will find that in similar fashion, when the human body is exposed to enough alcohol over a long enough period of time (for genetic reasons, with many Native Americans, this happens frighteningly quickly, in just a few weeks of regular drinking), the body progressively changes the way it metabolizes alcohol -- that is, the way it physiologically responds to alcohol -- and that this change is irreversible. Until the very end of the progression, the person will find that it takes more and more alcohol to produce the same inner psychological feeling of ease and calm and euphoria. Once the progression has gone so far that it takes an alcoholic large quantities to produce that feeling, past that point, taking one or two drinks of alcohol would have little appreciable effect at all, in terms of giving the person a satisfying "buzz." What I find shameful about the AA bashers who claim that alcoholics can successfully go back to "controlled drinking" -- who accuse AA of being a "cult" suitable only for the naive and scientifically ignorant -- is that although they boastfully proclaim themselves as the defenders of "real scientific thinking," they have never even bothered to read what real science has actually shown about the physiological reactions and metabolic processes involving alcohol ingestion in the human body. In other words, AA bashers of this sort are total frauds. To put it in language they can understand, you can turn a cucumber into a pickle, but not vice versa. Likewise a psychiatrist or psychologist -- and this includes even people like Dr. Arthur H. Cain of Harper's Magazine fame -- cannot in fact take a chronic alcoholic's pickled body and turn it back into a body which has a "virgin" reaction to alcohol ingestion. So although referring to alcoholism as an "allergy" in the Big Book was at one level an unfortunate choice of words, because that is certainly not in line with modern scientific understanding of either allergic reactions or of alcoholism, it nevertheless contained an important kernel of truth: once alcoholism has developed, you cannot physiologically become "un-alcoholic" any more than you can become "un-allergic" to poison ivy (or what have you). Glenn ___________________________________________ Original message from Tommy Hickcox: I have read, I think on our list, that Wilson considered the terms illness, disease, malady, ailment synonymous. However, the quote indicates otherwise. From msg. 5695: The answer William Griffith Wilson gave when specifically asked about alcoholism as disease after he had addressed the annual meeting of the National Catholic Clergy Conference of Alcoholism in 1961: "We have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically speaking, it is not a disease entity. For example, there is no such thing as heart disease. Instead there are many separate heart ailments, or combinations of them. It is something like that with alcoholism. Therefore we did not wish to get in wrong with the medical profession by pronouncing alcoholism a disease entity. Therefore we always called it an illness, or a malady -- a far safer term for us to use." End of quote. I like his example of heart disease. We hear our reaction to alcohol as an allergy, but no medical scientist would call it that as it doesn't meet the medical definition of an allergy. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7247. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Stepping Stones archives microfilmed digitized, put on line From: Al Welch . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/14/2011 9:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Al Welch and Laurie Andrews: - - - - From "Al Welch" (welch at a-1associates.com) Wow! What treasure! - - - - From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) There is valuable archival material relating to AA in the UK at Stepping Stones. When I was visiting in 1990,en route to the Seattle convention,I read Lois's diary of her and Bill's trip to Europe in (I think) 1950 in which she recorded their time in the UK. -----Original Message----- From: John Moore (johnmoore at gmail.com) Subject: Stepping Stones archives microfilmed digitized, put on line A project is underway to microfilm the Stepping Stones archival material, digitize it, and eventually make it available to researchers on line. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7248. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anne Ripley Smith''s Birth Year From: OedipusTax . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2011 9:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Contrary to what Arthur S. and Jim Blair said, the June 1950 Grapevine article does not say March 21 but March 3: Anne Ripley Smith March 3, 1881 -- June 1, 1949 The Loving "Spiritual Rock" of Early A.A. Wife of Dr. Bob "The Mother of A.A." A Tribute to Anne Smith A.A. Grapevine, June 1950 SOMEHOW we believe Dr. Bob's beloved Anne would prefer this simple tribute beyond all others. It was written by one who knew her well. It came from the bottom of a grateful heart which sensed that extravagant language and trumpeting phrases would serve only to obscure a life that had deep meaning. It is doubtful if now, only one year after her passing, that the true significance of Anne Smith's life can be realized. Certainly it cannot yet be written, for the warmth of her love, and charm of her personality and the strength of her humility are still upon those of us who knew her. For Anne Smith was far more than a gracious lady. She was one of four people, chosen by a Higher Destiny, to perform a service to mankind. How great this contribution is, only time and an intelligence beyond man's can determine. With Dr. Bob, Lois and Bill, Anne Smith stepped into history, not as a heroine but as one willing to accept God's will and ready to do what needed to be done. Her kitchen was the battleground and, while Anne poured the black coffee, a battle was fought there which has led to your salvation and mine. It was she, perhaps, who first understood the miracle of what passed between Bill and Dr. Bob. And, in the years to follow, it was she who knew with divine certainty that what had happened in her home would happen in other homes again, again, and yet again. For Anne understood the simplicity of faith. Perhaps that's why God chose her for us. Perhaps that's why Anne never once thought of herself as a 'woman of destiny' but went quietly about her job. Perhaps that's why, when she said to a grief-torn wife, "Come in, my dear, you're with friends now -- friends who understand" that fear and loneliness vanished. Perhaps that's why Anne always sat in the rear of the meetings, so she could see the newcomers as they came, timid and doubtful. . .and make them welcome. There's a plaque on the wall of Akron's St. Thomas hospital dedicated to Anne. It's a fine memorial. But there's a finer one lying alongside the typewriter as this is being written -- letters to Dr. Bob from men and women who knew and loved her well. Each tries to put in words what is felt in many hearts. They fail -- and that's the tribute beyond price. For real love, divine love, escapes even the poet's pen. So, in the simplest way we know, and speaking for every AA everywhere, let's just say 'Thanks, Dr. Bob, for sharing her with us.' We know that she's in a Higher Group now, sitting well to the back, with an eye out for newcomers, greeting the strangers and listening for their names! End of Grapevine article ............... _________________________________________________ Original message #1145 from "planternva" (jscarpine at juno.com) dated Jul 11, 2003 Anne Ripley Smith's Birth Year The stone on her and Bob's grave says she was born in 1881. (Written in stone?) Jim S. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Jim Blair wrote: > Arthur wrote > > Can anyone confirm or correct with a citation to a written reference source? > > The June 1950 issue of the GV had an article on Anne Smith and it notes her birth date as March 21, 1881. > > Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7249. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Emmet Fox''s secretary From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2011 10:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Harold A. (Al) S-------, who wrote both the Responsibility Pledge (1965) and the Declaration of Unity (1970). He was also the author of a book on Bert D: Hard Hat, Inebriate, Scholar (Harbor House, Memphis TN, 1975). He moved from NY to FL in the 1970s and died there. > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > From: lanhamcook@yahoo.co.uk > > In wikipedia it states that: > > "Fox's secretary was the mother of one of the men who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous co-founder Bill W., and partly as a result of this connection early AA groups often went to hear Fox. His writing, especially "The Sermon on the Mount," became popular in AA." > > I was curious to know if anyone knows man was who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous? > > JLC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7250. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Red-Headed A.A. nurse Known as Teddy From: ron.fulkerson@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/19/2011 7:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Tommy, She told her story in the Saturday Evening Post magazine 10/18/1952. ronf IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7251. . . . . . . . . . . . Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? From: Bent Christensen . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2011 3:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Friends We have an interesting situation here Denmark. In shot some AA groups have applied for and recieved money at the municipality in order to pay rent by literature and so on. This was in the local newspaper and thus our GSO heard about it and went to the groups in order to guide them. GSO recommended that the groups should make an association/club which could apply for contributions and then the groups could continue as always. Some of us think this is simply a workaround or traditions and told GSO so. GSO replies that there is a speciel Danish tradition not to pay rent. Thus we can not use the guidelines regarding AA Clubs. I am not sure if the statement regarding rent means in AA or in generel. Now my questions to you good people are: 1. Is it common practice that voluntary organizations do not pay rent where you live? 2. Do your AA group pay rent? 3. Do you have any experience to share regarding this matter? Bent Christensen Valmuevej 17 6000 Kolding Tlf. +45 50 12 17 43 www.synlighjemmeside.dk IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7252. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: God as we understood Him: agnostics From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2011 10:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is a clarification to the sharing of what's in intuited (Amelia)'s post about the General Service Conference agenda and her final question. The Conference Literature Committee is planning its discussion toward recommending approval or disapproval on two agenda items: Item B: Review progress report from the trustee's Literature Committee on the development of literature which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous. Item G: Consider a request to reconsider the 2010 Conference Advisory Action that "the trustees Literature Committee develop literature which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous." On one hand, the trustees' Literature Committee is giving a progress report on the feasibility (want vs. need vs. cost) and format (length, type of publishing) of new literature that would most likely be a pamphlet. That's what the 2010 Conference instructed them to develop: the possibilities. On the other hand, item G's reconsideration request is to either recommend Conference approval or disapproval on the "non-religious" spirituality pamphlet which was approved to proceed last year. The deluge of input on item G suggests a lot of constructive ideas have been submitted for the project since last year, on both the pro and con for AAWS to undertake such a new work of literature. In the end, only the Conference Committee on Literature will make the recommendation to the Conference whether to stop or proceed. If the proposed pamphlet proceeds, the 2011 two newly Appointed Committee Members on the Literature Committee will certainly be doing a lot of reading, reviewing submitted work. The AA Grapevine, Inc. has previously published four soft cover books on spirituality without the heavy input of religious faith: two versions of "Came To Believe, " another on "Spirituality" and another called "AA Around the World." The question is, should AAWS, Inc. publish one, too? Give it time, and the AA Grapevine will publish another one on AA spirituality. In my home turf, the current issue of the Chicago Area's "Here's How" has six articles on spirituality and only one of the articles mentions God. And in my group and other meetings, I can understand many who are continually developing their understanding of God, those holding an unshakable belief in the God of the Bible, those who refuse to consider any belief because of past experience, and those who have never been effectively exposed to God-consciousness. Call it the whole gamut of faiths: those who say they know and those still finding out. Anyone can get sober with or without a religious faith. Intuited wrote: I am very curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these terms. Is it an easy way to talk about 'other than Christian' spirituality?" My answer is "yes." It could be one of AA's greatest strengths about "God as we understood Him" to appreciate any member's generic, poorly defined 'Creator' to be called "God" because even that slight belief keeps that member's recovery in focus. Bill W. wrestled with the "God" concept when he first got sober, too. I'm not uneasy when I speak of God with the name "God" when I personally have my own belief and don't feel the need to explain it. One-on-one, it's all right for me to explain when asked, but otherwise in general group sharing it's always come across as a distraction. I've been to many Pentecostal services, seminars, and plenty of AA Open Speaker meetings, and while I love them both their intent and the destinations are very different! Still sober, Rick, Illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7253. . . . . . . . . . . . Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate From: kimrowe24 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2011 7:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I did a careful statistical study of my home group, employing the same criteria used in the Big Book and in early AA practice, and verified the old 50% / 25% success rate. AA still works that way today. I decided to do work out the statistics on my home group's success rate, after I recently read an article bashing AA's printed recovery rate, stating that AA was lucky to achieve 2% on a good day, and even less during the holiday season. After reading the article, I realized that there were three important things that had to be asked: (1) how did they define success, (2) who made up their test group, and (3) what was the criteria for being in the test group. This is what the Big Book states: "Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried, 50% got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed on with A.A. showed improvement." At the time the book was written, 4 years 4 months was the maximum sobriety of AA's test group, but many had only been sober for a few months. The Big Book defined success as continuously sober for anywhere from a few months to over four years. AA's test group was made up of all volunteers. See AA Number Three's story, pg 186, where Bill and Bob ask Bill D the four questions: "Do you want to quit drinking?" "Can you quit of your own accord?" "Do you believe in a Higher Power?" and "Are you willing to go to this Higher Power and ask for help, calmly and without any reservations?" It was harder to get into AA back then than it is now, no one could just walk in and sit in their meetings. There were no court referrals, no treatment center tourist, and no marriage saving members in this group. AA's test group was further restricted to those who "came to A.A. and really tried." What did Bill W mean when he said "really tried"? The answer is in chapter 5, How It Works. It defines "really tried" as thoroughly following the path, completely giving themselves to this simple program, being rigorously honest, going to any lengths, taking certain steps, being fearless and thorough from the very start, letting go of our old ideas absolutely, finding a Higher Power, and taking the suggestions. I went to my home group. I explained to them that I wanted to conduct an informal survey. They agreed. Then I explained that I only wanted to conduct the survey with those who volunteered to come to AA for help. Next I explained that the survey would be limited to those who really tried (see above). The results of my survey is that 50% of that group got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed on with A.A. showed improvement. Now what about all those other people, the non-volunteers, or the half measure group? Well the Big Book talks about them too, "Other thousands came to a few A.A. meetings and at first decided they didn't want the program. But great numbers of these, about two out of three, began to return as time passed." Years later, and our home group has the exact same success rate as our founders if we apply the same test criteria as our founders. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7254. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Stepping Stones archives microfilmed digitized, put on line From: wgwalker3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2011 7:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Group! After the initial mention of this project earlier in the week, I emailed Stepping Stones and asked how to "earmark" contributions toward this project. I was advised that ALL contributions submitted via the website for Stepping Stones will go toward this project. They indicated they are very grateful that any of us might announce this project at our meetings, groups, district and area meetings. Thanks to all of you for your participation here! Yours in Fellowship, Bill Walker IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7255. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is alcoholism a disease? Metaphorically or biochemically? From: Glen Morehead . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/19/2011 12:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn, I would appreciate some clarification, particularly literature references supporting your [condensed] statement below: Although alcoholism is not an allergic reaction in that sense....when the human body is exposed to enough alcohol over a long enough period of time....the body progressively changes the way it metabolizes alcohol -- that is, the way it physiologically responds to alcohol -- and that this change is irreversible. I am not clear whether you are speaking metaphorically and psychologically, or biochemically. Big difference. Please clarify and aim me to a further understanding of exactly what you DO mean to say, and what the literature says. There is no dispute on my part that there is an irreversible change, and that we do in fact "cross a line," only the info you are citing to support this. Best rgds, Glen M 5-11-03 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7256. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is alcoholism a disease? Metaphorically or biochemically? From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/23/2011 5:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In response to the message from Glen Morehead (glenm7 at yahoo.com) ???? I said in my message that I was talking about the way the body "metabolizes alcohol" and "the way it physiologically responds to alcohol." That certainly doesn't mean "metaphorically" or "psychologically," in anybody's language. I did my B.S. degree and half of a Ph.D. (at Iowa State University) in chemistry, and my first published journal article was one in Radiation Chemistry investigating certain aspects of what happens to the aldehyde linkage in proteins when the human body suffers an overdose of radiation. So I do know what acetaldehyde and acetic acid and all these things are. (To sum up the findings of the research group to which I belonged, the radiation knocks off free radicals -- fragments of the protein chain, plus free radicals from other molecules present in the cells, such as water, sodium chloride, potassium chloride, and so on -- which then reattach to the wrong parts of the protein chain, or to one another, or to other chemicals present, to form poisonous or non-functional chemical molecules, including such things as chloroform and hydrochloric acid. One proposed treatment for people who have been overexposed to radiation was therefore to give them substances that would preferentially absorb those free radicals.) So if you prefer the word "biochemically," I understand the difference between a literary metaphor and a chemical reaction, and we'll use the word biochemical instead. The volume of literature on this is so voluminous, I cannot even begin to start listing all the journal articles you would have to read, but if you start with the following references, you can track them down for yourself. See for example, >> Alcohol also is metabolized in the liver by the enzyme cytochrome P450IIE1 (CYP2E1), which may be increased after chronic drinking. Lieber, C.S. Metabolic consequences of ethanol. The Endocrinologist 4(2):127-139, 1994. >> Long-term alcohol abuse produces physiological changes in the brain such as tolerance and physical dependence. Such brain chemistry changes maintain the alcoholic's compulsive inability to stop drinking and result in alcohol withdrawal syndrome upon discontinuation of alcohol consumption. Hoffman, PL.; Tabakoff, B. (Jul 1996). "Alcohol dependence: a commentary on mechanisms." Alcohol 31 (4): 333-40. For an abstract of this article (published back in 1996, a long time ago) see: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8879279 The biochemistry is backed up by other types of studies: >> For example, does "moderation management" work? Almost no alcoholic who tries this can continue to drink moderately for more than ten years without either (a) relapsing back into uncontrolled drinking or (c) stopping all drinking absolutely. See the study by George Vaillant at Harvard Medical School: >> "A long-term (60 year) follow-up of two groups of alcoholic men concluded that 'return to controlled drinking rarely persisted for much more than a decade without relapse or evolution into abstinence.' Vaillant also noted that 'return-to-controlled drinking, as reported in short-term studies, is often a mirage.'" Vaillant, GE (2003). "A 60-year follow-up of alcoholic men". Addiction (Abingdon, England) 98 (8): 1043-51. ____________________________________________ AT SLIGHTLY GREATER LENGTH, SEE: Alcohol Metabolism http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/alerts/l/blnaa35.htm An informational bulletin from the NIAAA (National Institute of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism) (This government agency, which is part of the U.S. government's National Institutes of Health, was originally put into its present form as part of the process of passing the Hughes Act. Nancy Olson, the founder of the AAHistoryLovers, was the principal senatorial aide in charge of the passage and implementation of the Hughes Act.) Metabolism is the body's process of converting ingested substances to other compounds. Metabolism results in some substances becoming more, and some less, toxic than those originally ingested. Metabolism involves a number of processes, one of which is referred to as oxidation. Through oxidation, alcohol is detoxified and removed from the blood, preventing the alcohol from accumulating and destroying cells and organs. A minute amount of alcohol escapes metabolism and is excreted unchanged in the breath and in urine. Until all the alcohol consumed has been metabolized, it is distributed throughout the body, affecting the brain and other tissues. When alcohol is consumed, it passes from the stomach and intestines into the blood, a process referred to as absorption. Alcohol is then metabolized by enzymes, which are body chemicals that break down other chemicals. In the liver, an enzyme called alcohol dehydrogenase (ADH) mediates the conversion of alcohol to acetaldehyde. Acetaldehyde is rapidly converted to acetate by other enzymes and is eventually metabolized to carbon dioxide and water. Alcohol also is metabolized in the liver by the enzyme cytochrome P450IIE1 (CYP2E1), which may be increased after chronic drinking.* Most of the alcohol consumed is metabolized in the liver, but the small quantity that remains unmetabolized permits alcohol concentration to be measured in breath and urine. *Lieber, C.S. Metabolic consequences of ethanol. The Endocrinologist 4(2):127-139, 1994. Alcohol Metabolism--A Commentary by NIAAA Director Enoch Gordis, M.D. With respect to its broader scientific application, metabolism, which has long been studied, is emerging with new implications for the study of alcoholism and its medical consequences. For instance, how is metabolism related to the resistance of some individuals to alcoholism? We know that some inherited abnormalities in metabolism (e.g., flushing reaction among some persons of Asian descent) promote resistance to alcoholism. Recent data from two large-scale NIAAA-supported genetics studies suggest that alcohol dehydrogenase genes may be associated with differential resistance and vulnerability to alcohol. These findings are important to the study of why some people develop alcoholism and others do not. Studies of metabolism also can identify alternate paths of alcohol metabolism, which may help explain how alcohol speeds up the elimination of some substances (e.g., barbiturates) and increases the toxicity of others (e.g., acetaminophen). This information will help health care providers in advising patients on alcohol-drug interactions that may decrease the effectiveness of some therapeutic medications or render others harmful. FOR MORE DETAILS SEE this NIAAA publication: http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa72/aa72.htm - - - - Alcoholism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholism Long-term alcohol abuse produces physiological changes in the brain such as tolerance and physical dependence. Such brain chemistry changes maintain the alcoholic's compulsive inability to stop drinking and result in alcohol withdrawal syndrome upon discontinuation of alcohol consumption.** Alcohol's primary effect is the increase in stimulation of the GABAA receptor, promoting central nervous system depression. With repeated heavy consumption of alcohol, these receptors are desensitized and reduced in number, resulting in tolerance and physical dependence. When alcohol consumption is stopped too abruptly, the person's nervous system suffers from uncontrolled synapse firing. Genetic differences exist between different racial groups which affect the risk of developing alcohol dependence. For example, there are differences between African, East Asian and Indo-racial groups in how they metabolize alcohol. These genetic factors are believed to, in part, explain the differing rates of alcohol dependence among racial groups. **Hoffman, PL.; Tabakoff, B. (Jul 1996). "Alcohol dependence: a commentary on mechanisms.". Alcohol Alcohol 31 (4): 333-40. For an abstract of this article (published back in 1996, a long time ago) see: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8879279 1996 Jul;31(4):333-40. Alcohol dependence: a commentary on mechanisms. Hoffman PL, Tabakoff B. Department of Pharmacology, University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, Denver 80262, USA. Abstract: The alcohol dependence syndrome includes the presence of alcohol tolerance, physical dependence and an inability to control one's alcohol intake. Studies are reviewed that implicate the mesolimbic dopaminergic systems, and the gamma-aminobutyric acid-A (GABAA) and N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptors as mediators of various aspects of the alcohol dependence syndrome. It is suggested that alcohol-induced changes in the GABAA receptor may play a role in certain aspects of tolerance to alcohol and in altered abilities of an individual to terminate alcohol intake. Chronic alcohol-induced increases in the activity of NMDA receptors may contribute to the withdrawal signs that are the defining feature of physical dependence on alcohol. It is hypothesized that decreased mesolimbic dopaminergic function, which occurs during alcohol withdrawal, may be involved in the compulsion to initiate and maintain alcohol drinking, another aspect of the alcohol dependence syndrome. Furthermore, evidence is presented that this decreased dopaminergic function could occur secondarily to the increase in NMDA receptor function, such that the alcohol-induced increase in NMDA receptor function could underlie both the overt withdrawal signs and the compulsion to drink alcohol in the alcohol-dependent individual. Does "moderation management" work? Almost no alcoholic who tries this can continue to drink moderately for more than ten years without either (a) relapsing back into uncontrolled drinking or (c) stopping all drinking absolutely. See the study by George Vaillant at Harvard Medical School: "A long-term (60 year) follow-up of two groups of alcoholic men concluded that 'return to controlled drinking rarely persisted for much more than a decade without relapse or evolution into abstinence.' Vaillant also noted that 'return-to-controlled drinking, as reported in short-term studies, is often a mirage.'"*** ***Vaillant, GE (2003). "A 60-year follow-up of alcoholic men". Addiction (Abingdon, England) 98 (8): 1043-51. - - - - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_metabolism Acetyl coenzyme A or acetyl-CoA is an important molecule in metabolism, used in many biochemical reactions. Its main function is to convey the carbon atoms within the acetyl group to the citric acid cycle to be oxidized for energy production. The reaction from ethanol to carbon dioxide and water is a complex one that proceeds in three steps. Complete Reaction: C2H6O(Ethanol)?C2H4O(Acetaldehyde)?C2H4O2(acetic Acid) ?Acetyl-CoA?3H2O+2CO2. Ethanol is oxidized to acetaldehyde via the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase IB (class I), beta polypeptide (ADH1B). The gene coding for this enzyme is 1.1.1.1 on chromosome 4, locus 4q21-q23. Acetaldehyde is a highly unstable compound and quickly forms free radical structures which are highly toxic if not quenched by antioxidants such as ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) and Vitamin B1 (thiamine). These free radicals can result in damage to embryonic neural crest cells and can lead to severe birth defects. Prolonged exposure of the kidney and liver to these compounds in chronic alcoholics can lead to severe damage. The literature also suggests that these toxins may have a hand in causing some of the ill effects associated with hang-overs. Acetaldehyde to acetic acid: Aldehyde dehydrogenase is the second enzyme of the major oxidative pathway of alcohol metabolism. Two major liver isoforms of this enzyme, cytosolic and mitochondrial, can be distinguished by their electrophoretic mobilities, kinetic properties, and subcellular localizations. Most Caucasians have two major isozymes, while approximately 50% of Asians have only the cytosolic isozyme, missing the mitochondrial isozyme. A remarkably higher frequency of acute alcohol intoxication among Asians than among Caucasians could be related to the absence of the mitochondrial isozyme. ___________________________________ Original message from Glen Morehead (glenm7 at yahoo.com) Glenn, I would appreciate some clarification, particularly literature references supporting your [condensed] statement below: Although alcoholism is not an allergic reaction in that sense....when the human body is exposed to enough alcohol over a long enough period of time....the body progressively changes the way it metabolizes alcohol -- that is, the way it physiologically responds to alcohol -- and that this change is irreversible. I am not clear whether you are speaking metaphorically and psychologically, or biochemically. Big difference. Please clarify and aim me to a further understanding of exactly what you DO mean to say, and what the literature says. There is no dispute on my part that there is an irreversible change, and that we do in fact "cross a line," only the info you are citing to support this. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7257. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: alcoholism as disease, biochemistry, diabetes, hypothyroidism From: MarionORedstone@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/19/2011 12:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Glenn and all, DR. BOB'S OPINION: I am sure Ernie Kurtz would recall his notation: From E. Kurtz, PhD, Monograph Alcoholics Anonymous and the Disease Concept of Alcoholism (2000) In 1938, while preparing the manuscript of the A.A. Big Book, Bill Wilson asked Dr. Bob Smith (a proctologist) about the accuracy of referring to alcoholism as a disease or one of its synonyms. Bob's reply, scribbled in a large hand on a small sheet of his letterhead, read: "Have to use disease -- sick -- only way to get across hopelessness," the final word doubly underlined and written in even larger letters (Smith [Akron] to Wilson) So the physician in the founding of A.A. suggested the disease concept. AA PAMPHLET 44 QUESTIONS: More recently the A.A. pamphlet 44 Questions states in answer to the question what is alcoholism? "There are many different ideas about what alcoholism really is. The explanation that seems to make sense to most A.A. members is that alcoholism is an illness, a progressive illness,which can never be cured but which, like some other illnesses, can be arrested. Going one step further, many A.A.s feel that the illness represents the combination of a physical sensitivity to alcohol and a mental obsession with drinking, which, regardless of consequences, cannot be broken by will power alone [italics in the original]." THE WORD "RELAPSE" NOT USED: It is useful for me to remember that despite the disease concept being actively under discussion during the formative times of A.A., the term "relapse" was not used. When the first two chairmen of the Alcohol Foundation were unseated because of inebriation, they were said to have "returned to drinking." This is the term I prefer because it expresses the idea that our steady state is to be unsteady. ACETALDEHYDE AND THE ADDICTIVE PAIN KILLER THIQ: It is well established from modern studies that abnormal physiological responses in alcoholics create elevated levels of acetaldehyde in their blood stream and the production of the addictive pain killer THIQ (tetrahydroisoquinoline) in their brain cells. Thus the illness is expressed at a cellular level, so no amount of will power can affect that. DIABETES AND HYPOTHYROIDISM AS PARALLELS: To that extent, it is much like other cellular level maladies, like diabetes mellitus and hypothyroidism. The good news of course is that a spiritual awakening can and does allow the owner of the alcoholic's abnormal physiology to live comfortably in their skin without drinking alcohol. God is near, Marion IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7258. . . . . . . . . . . . Text of the red-headed nurse in the alcoholic ward From: George . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/19/2011 2:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here is her story: http://silkworth.net/magazine_newspaper/saturday_evening_post_oct_18_1952.ht ml IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7259. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate From: Jeff Bruce . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/23/2011 4:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII You did something I have been thinking about for quite a while. Good for you! "Other thousands came to a few A.A. meetings and at first decided they didn't want the program. But great numbers of these, about two out of three, began to return as time passed." What page is that on? Thanks. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7260. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Changes in the chapter To Wives From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/19/2011 6:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Charles Knapp, gadgetsdad, and Old Bill (schaberg) - - - - From: Charles Knapp (cpknapp at yahoo.com) Hey Group, With help from Doug B. and Shakey Mike I was able to answer the question about the changes in the Chapter To The Wives. From our research we found the following: Original Manuscript: "We make this recommendation with some confidence. About a year ago a certain state institution released six chronic alcoholics. It was fully expected they would all be back in a few weeks. Only one of them has returned. The others had no relapse at all.The power of God goes deep!" 1st Edition 1st printing page 127: "We make this recommendation with some confidence. About a year ago a certain state institution released four chronic alcoholics. It was fully expected they would all be back in a few weeks. Only one of them has returned. The others had no relapse at all.The power of God goes deep!" 1st Edition; 2nd thru 16th printing page 127: "We make this recommendation with some confidence. For several years we have been working with alcoholics committed to institutions. During 1939 two hospitals in New Jersey released 17 alcoholics. Eleven have had no relapse whatever-none of them have returned to the asylum. The power of God goes deep!" 2nd , 3rd and 4th Editions page 114: "We make this recommendation with some confidence. For years we have been working with alcoholics committed to institutions. Since this book was first published, A.A. has released thousands of alcoholics from asylums and hospitals of every kind. The majority have never returned. The power of God goes deep!" =========================================== SUMMARY: >> The Manuscript per April 1939 had six chronic alcoholics released >> The 1st Edition 1st Printing April 1939 had four chronic alcoholics released >> The 1st Edition 2nd through the 16th printings 1941 -1954 had some additional wording and 17 alcoholics released (note they are no longer "chronic") >> Starting with the Second Edition in 1955 we have the wording we have today. =========================================== Thanks for the help! Charles from Wisconsin - - - - From: gadgetsdad (gadgetsdad at yahoo.com) The second through 16th printings all use the figure 17. I happened to read this paragraph at a meeting a few years ago and realized the First edition could not have used thousands. So I went through all 16 printings. Brad I. Area 25 Northern Minnesota Archivist - - - - From: schaberg@aol.com (schaberg at aol.com) The second through the seventh printings all read exactly like the eighth printing that you have quoted: 1st Edition: 2nd thru 7th printing, page 127: "We make this recommendation with some confidence. For several years we have been working with alcoholics committed to institutions. During 1939 two hospitals in New Jersey released 17 alcoholics. Eleven have had no relapse whatever -- none of them have returned to the asylum. The power of God goes deep!" Old Bill ________________________________ Original message from: Charles Knapp Sent: Fri, March 18, 2011 Subject: Changes in the chapter To Wives Hello Group, I was asked a question I could not fully answer and was hoping someone could help me finish my answer. It seems there were some changes in the wording in part of a paragraph in Chapter 8 "To The Wives." I am looking for anyone who might have access to all 16 printings the 1st edition Big Book. In particular I am looking for the wording in printings 2 thru 7. I have the different wording from the manuscript, 1st printing and printings 8 thru 16. So all I need is the changes in printings 2 thru 7. Here is what I have so far: Original Manuscript: "We make this recommendation with some confidence. About a year ago a certain state institution released six chronic alcoholics. It was fully expected they would all be back in a few weeks. Only one of them has returned. The others had no relapse at all.The power of God goes deep!" 1st Edition 1st printing page 127: "We make this recommendation with some confidence. About a year ago a certain state institution released four chronic alcoholics. It was fully expected they would all be back in a few weeks. Only one of them has returned. The others had no relapse at all.The power of God goes deep!" 1st Edition; 8th thru 13th printing page 127: "We make this recommendation with some confidence. For several years we have been working with alcoholics committed to institutions. During 1939 two hospitals in New Jersey released 17 alcoholics. Eleven have had no relapse whatever-none of them have returned to the asylum. The power of God goes deep!" 2nd, 3rd and 4th Editions page 114: "We make this recommendation with some confidence. For years we have been working with alcoholics committed to institutions. Since this book was first published, A.A. has released thousands of alcoholics from asylums and hospitals of every kind. The majority have never returned. The power of God goes deep!" Any help will be appreciated Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7261. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/23/2011 2:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Laurie A., John M., Bryan Reid, David B., Beverly F., and Gerard M. - - - - From: Laurie Andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) Taking money from an outside municipal body would seem to contradict Tradition Seven. I've belonged to AA groups who met in premises owned by landlords who would not accept rent from voluntary clubs etc as part of their service to the community. The AA groups checked the going rate for rooms in the area and made equivalent donations to those organisations from time to time (Christmas funds, gifts of TVs, furniture etc etc). - - - - From: John Moore (contact.johnmoore at gmail.com) Hi Bent, An interesting set of questions and I am sure many of us will have experience to share. If there is a tradition in Denmark that AA groups do not pay rent, it would be the first time I have ever heard of the concept. In the 39 years that I have been attending AA here in the USA, it has always been stressed that we are not a charity. We are a voluntary organization, yes... but we pay our own way and accept no outside money. AA will not accept money or gifts from outside the fellowship, whether from a church, the government, a charity, a benevolent giver, or any other place. We pay our own way... we are self supporting and this is a point of great pride. We are not seeking a handout from anyone. We are responsible for ourselves. Our GSO in New York routinely refuses and sends back money, sometimes even large amounts, that comes to AA from a variety of sources outside our fellowship, and limits how much any one person can give. Arguments and disputes over money and property can be terribly divisive and AA has chosen a wise path, that of being broke, beyond our prudent operating reserves. It gets difficult at times because virtually every group must pay rent. The price of rent has gone up and we sometimes are hard pressed to keep meetings open, especially with newer groups. Churches who rent space to us are a wonderful asset and we cherish the fact that we can rent from them. Other landlords are good to us too, but we make sure we pay them. Starting a clubhouse for meeting space is not a good approach. Once open, a clubhouse must have money to cover expenses, and the AA groups meeting there will need to pay rent in order for the club to survive. Accepting government funds to make it possible for AA groups to meet there and not pay rent sounds like a violation of the spirit of our 12 traditions. It would amount to an indirect subsidy from the government to AA. All of this should be a matter for a group conscience to decide. Our AA Guidelines on clubhouses is pretty helpful, and it stresses that any club must be separately incorporated and managed by those who have an interest in it. AA cannot be associated with the club. The AA groups meeting there are merely tenants, and the clubhouse is the landlord. The tenants are free at any time to move, go away, as they see fit. Here is the AA guideline about clubhouses: http://aa.org/lang/en/en_pdfs/mg-03_clubs.pdf A typical AA group here in USA will pass the basket during the meeting, collecting usually a dollar, sometimes two, from the average person. The group secretary or treasurer keeps track of the money and accounts to the group as to how it was used. My home group pays rent to the church, buys AA literature, buys coffee and refreshments, medallions, and other supplies. The excess is accumulated until we have a "prudent reserve" which in my group is the amount needed for three months' operating expenses. The excess funds above that, we give away. We send our excess money to our District, our Area and our GSO organizations as contributions, usually twice each year. There is a good pamphlet on the AA web site http://aa.org/pdf/products/f-3_selfsupport.pdf about our being self supporting. I hope this will be useful to you Bent. All that I have written is my own personal experience, and I do not speak on behalf of AA. I am willing to stand corrected if anyone finds error in what I have said. I wanted to relate to you my own personal experience on these interesting questions. God bless, John John M Burlington, Vermont US D.O.S. Dec 7, 1971 - - - - From: Bryan Reid (humblephoenix at gmail.com) Hi all I'm in Southeastern Arizona (USA) up in the high desert. In response to your questions, Bent: 1. Here (and every Group I attended in Pennsylvania and Connecticut before moving out here) every A.A. Group I know of pays rent. The reasoning behind this is that the 7th Tradition states: "Every A.A. group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions," and that this includes declining free rent of a meeting place. I'm sure there are other "voluntary" or non-profit organisations that do not pay rent but they are not A.A. 2. Yes, my home Group and every other Group in our District pays rent for their meeting place or room. [I know this because I am the District Secretary.] 3. My home Group (Highway 92 Group in Sierra Vista, Arizona) rents space from a non-profit organisation called the Serenity Club, which was specifically organised and built for the purpose of providing a meeting place for A.A. Groups. We currently have three Groups in total meeting there and all pay rent. The Groups buy their own literature, anniversary medallions and other A.A. supplies themselves. The Club provides the meeting place and coffee. I haven't seen the letter you got from GSO, but out here all Groups are supposed to be totally self-supporting through the voluntary contributions of its members and not accept outside contributions of any kind. When we have non-alcoholics attend our open meetings we do not allow them to contribute when the basket is passed. Best regards from Arizona! Bryan - - - - From: David Brown (copperas44 at yahoo.com) Tradition says we have to be self supporting and that we should not accept donations from any external source. Read the history of AA and understand that Rockefeller realized that money would be detrimental to the future of our organization. When in doubt check out the traditions ans follow them. David - - - - From: bevflk@aol.com (bevflk at aol.com) My name is Beverly Foulke and I am AA member of the home group ""Get A Life" and we pay $25 a meeting which is collected from our "pass the basket" at the middle of our meeting. I don't know if that helps or not. Beverly - - - - From: Gerard T McMahon (skyfive at bellsouth.net) Our group pays rent each month and since most of our groups in USA use churches that seems to be the common practice. Gerard McMahon _______________________________________ Original message from: bent_christensen5@yahoo.com Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 Subject: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? Dear Friends We have an interesting situation here Denmark. In shot some AA groups have applied for and recieved money at the municipality in order to pay rent by literature and so on. This was in the local newspaper and thus our GSO heard about it and went to the groups in order to guide them. GSO recommended that the groups should make an association/club which could apply for contributions and then the groups could continue as always. Some of us think this is simply a workaround or traditions and told GSO so. GSO replies that there is a speciel Danish tradition not to pay rent. Thus we can not use the guidelines regarding AA Clubs. I am not sure if the statement regarding rent means in AA or in generel. Now my questions to you good people are: 1. Is it common practice that voluntary organizations do not pay rent where you live? 2. Do your AA group pay rent? 3. Do you have any experience to share regarding this matter? Bent Christensen Valmuevej 17 6000 Kolding Tlf. +45 50 12 17 43 www.synlighjemmeside.dk IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7262. . . . . . . . . . . . EURYPAA Announcements From: Stockholm Fellowship . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/21/2011 11:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hundreds of people from countries all across Europe AND Australia, Asia, Africa, the United States and Canada will come together in DUBLIN, Ireland for the 2nd Annual All-Europe Young People in A.A. ("EURYPAA") Conference! The EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN planning committee has been working hard since the close of the first EURYPAA in Stockholm last summer. It is a project of service and fellowship and the committee could not do it without you being so supportive. Please continue helping outreach worldwide. Download the new EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN flyer at their website: http://www.eurypaa2011.com/ and pass it on at your meetings and to your email or online friends. Feel the Luck 'o the Irish WIN A TRIP TO EURYPAA!!! Pre-registration is available online! Register TODAY for your chance to win a trip to EURYPAA! Everyone who is pre-registered by 31 March 2011 will be entered to win a trip to EURYPAA! Prize includes round-trip air travel (purchased with miles) and shared accommodations. The winner will be drawn on or after 1 April and notified by email. See details below. CITYWEST HOTEL: HOME OF EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN Citywest Hotel is the host hotel for everything at EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN. Visit: http://www.eurypaa2011.com/ and click "Accommodation" to be connected to online reservations at the special EURYPAA discounted room rate. SHARE YOUR RECOVERY Programming for EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN is underway. If you would like to be considered for speaking on a topic panel or workshop please email: (info at eurypaa2011.com) Please understand that EURYPAA does not pay any travel for any speakers or participants. We do very much appreciate you carrying the message to the conference in Dublin. CALLING ALL PERFORMERS If you, your band, or someone you know, would like to be considered for the line-up in this year's EURYPAA live concert, please email: (info at eurypaa2011.com) and give us a link to your music or send a song in the mail. It's all in service, fun and fellowship for the EURYPAA conference so there will be no compensation. However, a table will be provided to get information out about the acts performing. PROGRAM & SCHEDULE Full program and schedule details will be posted online shortly before the conference and available to attendees upon arrival. (See below for Al-Anon/Alateen announcements.) Main Speaker Meetings FRIDAY: Open Meeting (with Al-Anon participation) and Around-the-World Roll Call SATURDAY: Main Meeting (with Al-Anon participation) and Selection of the Host City for EURYPAA 2012! SUNDAY: Closing Meeting and Sobriety Countdown Topic Meetings & Panel Presentations/Workshops Topic Meetings begin with speakers sharing on the topic followed by open sharing. While Topic Meetings are open for anyone to attend, participation is limited to those who have a desire to stop drinking. Panel Presentations begin with speakers sharing on the topic followed by questions & answers or comments. Workshops begin with speakers sharing on the topic followed by an open conversation, moderated by the Workshop Leader. Participation during panel presentations and/or workshops is open to all. A list of topics for meetings and workshops is being put together by the EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN programming team. If you would like to suggest a topic email: info@eurypaa2011.com Event Activities Live Music ~ Stand-up ~ Disco ~ Yoga ~ Golf Tournament ~ Football Match ~ Horse Riding ~ Water Sports ~ Ireland Tours ~ and more! International Meetings All meetings during EURYPAA are in English but we are proud to have made space available for meetings held in other languages as well: Svenska (Swedish), Francais (French), Polskie (Polish), Espanol (Spanish), Norske (Norwegian), ð уÑÑðºð¸ð¹ (Russian), Suomi (Finnish), Ãslenska (Icelandic), Danske (Danish), Deutsch (German), Lietuvos (Lithuanian) and more. If your group would like to host a meeting at EURYPAA in your native language email: (info at eurypaa2011.com) Al-Anon & Alateen Participation In addition to participation at each of the main speaker meetings, Al-Anon/Alateen will have several meetings during EURYPAA. We will also have a "Double-Winners" meeting for those in AA who also attend Al-Anon and those in Al-Anon who have come to believe they also need to attend AA. For more information on the Al-Anon/Alateen program or to be of service to Al-Anon/Alateen during EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN email: info@eurypaa2011.com WIN A TRIP TO EURYPAA DETAILS Every individual who is pre-registered for EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN by midnight 31 March 2011 will be entered in a drawing to win a trip to EURYPAA. The drawing will be held by the EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN planning committee on or after 1 April 2011. Winner will be notified by email. The prize consists of air travel to Dublin and shared accommodation at EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN as follows: (Air Travel) Round-trip economy class airfare purchased on behalf of the winner using up to 60,000 American Airlines miles. All limitations by American Airlines, including black-out dates, applies. In the event that suitable dates for the winner are not available, the winner will have the option to use the miles at another time, provided the cost of travel does not exceed 60,000 miles, to travel for EURYPAA 2012. (Accommodation) Winner understands they will be entitled to shared accommodation from 12-14 August 2011 at Citywest Hotel, host hotel for EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN. No alternative accommodation will be offered should the winner not be able to use the shared accommodation on the specific dates and winner will forfeit this portion of the prize. Shared accommodation means the winner will share the room with another person or persons. There is no cash value to this prize. All aspects of this prize have been donated by members of AA in support of the EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN conference. We thank them dearly and wish everyone the Luck 'o the Irish! The 2nd annual All-Europe Young People in A.A. Conference ("EURYPAA") will be hosted by Dublin, Ireland, 12-14 August 2011. Visit: http://www.EURYPAA2011.com/ for details and SPREAD THE WORD! For more information about EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN email: info@eurypaa2011.com We look forward to sharing EURYPAA with you! As the big book says, "this is an experience you must not miss!" Until then we wish you a very Happy & Sober St. Patrick's Day! In fellowship, Jay G. Niamh E. EURYPAA Advisory Chair EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN Chair IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7263. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anne Ripley Smith''s Birth Year From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2011 9:26:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII MARCH 21, NOT MARCH 3 Although it can't be distributed, the attached is a scan of the June 1950 Grapevine article. It clearly states "March 21, 1881 - June 1, 1949." Since the article was written a year after Anne's passing, and Dr Bob was still living, I'd prefer to give credence to it as opposed to the other cited sources. I'd appreciate seeing a copy of the June 1950 article (not a transcription) that shows "March 3, 1881 -- June 1, 1949" as stated below. Cheers Arthur ________________________________________ From: OedipusTax Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 Subject: Re: Anne Ripley Smith's Birth Year Contrary to what Arthur S. and Jim Blair said, the June 1950 Grapevine article does not say March 21 but March 3: Anne Ripley Smith March 3, 1881 -- June 1, 1949 The Loving "Spiritual Rock" of Early A.A. Wife of Dr. Bob "The Mother of A.A." A Tribute to Anne Smith A.A. Grapevine, June 1950 SOMEHOW we believe Dr. Bob's beloved Anne would prefer this simple tribute beyond all others. It was written by one who knew her well. It came from the bottom of a grateful heart which sensed that extravagant language and trumpeting phrases would serve only to obscure a life that had deep meaning .... IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7264. . . . . . . . . . . . Name of book/author on 3 p''s: prestige, power and pocketbook From: calistogababe . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/23/2011 11:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is a book, I have heard, that Bill W. read and used when he was writing the traditions. It was a comparative religion study that identified the 3 principles that were crucial for a successful spiritual fellowship. So the 3 p's to be careful of are: prestige, power and pocketbook. Does anyone know the name of that book or the author? Many thanks, Suzanne T. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7265. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is alcoholism a disease? From: Bryan Reid . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/23/2011 5:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Bryan Reid, bsdds, Laurie Andrews, and stalban - - - - From: Bryan Reid (humblephoenix at gmail.com) The head doctor at the treatment center I went to gave a lecture on this as part of the program. He said it was definitely a physiological (or biochemical) change. I know that to be true in my case. - - - - From: bsdds@comcast.net (bsdds at comcast.net) As one who contributed and spoke at the initial conference on alcoholism for the American Dental Assn in Chicago in 1985, this is a conundrum. I was associated with a med school as an " adjunctive member" of the dept of psychiatry back then and Texas Tech was very active in describing this phenomenon of alcoholism as a disease. They (Tech med school) were awarded 4 or 5 career teachers awards in the study of alcoholism. I remember that Stanley Gitlow, MD at one of the IDAA meetings back in the 70's in NJ, talked about "give the doc the dignity of a disease" and it would go a long way in sobering him/her up. And there were statistics back then that Docs who believed it was a disease did far better in recovery over a five year span. There is the works of Dr. Bissell, Dr. Robert Morse at Mayo's and many in the field who absolutely presented Alcholism as a disease. This was 30 years ago and I don't remember specifics on who where or what the research was ......... but, there were a good number of physicians who simply did not and do not think this is a disease, as they learned. It became a semantic issue. To me, its a mute point....don't take the first drink. - - - - From: Laurie Andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) I can be sick or ill without necessarily having a disease. We talk of people being mentally ill, rather than mentally diseased. (Is schizophrenia a disease?) Some behavioral psychologists argue that alcoholism is not a medical condition at all; they say problem drinking is learned behavior and as such can be unlearned. So for a layman like Bill to designate alcoholism as a disease would have immediately mired AA in controversy; maybe that's why - in anticipation of Tradition Ten - he studiously avoided claiming such expertise. Kurtz explores disease as metaphor and observes, "The heart of the alcoholic malady, AA teaches, is spiritual disease ... The spiritual is the key to the AA program ..." (Not God: a history of Alcoholics Anonymous, p200ff). If a physician told me I had diabetes and my only hope was a spiritual awakening I would demand a second opinion. Has the General Service Conference ever discussed whether or not alcoholism is a disease? - - - - From: (stalban2001 at yahoo.com) Great insights. I'm a right-side of the brain kind-of-guy, so the scientific evidence and research has never impacted how I regard addiction. When I first came in it sure felt like a "sickness," but over time I came to understand it as a "spiritual malaise." The "allergy" concept was always useful as a splendid metaphor that works wonders with newcomers. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7266. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate From: Charlie Parker . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/23/2011 5:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jeff Bruce asked in Message 7259, what page in the Big Book is the following quote from? "Other thousands came to a few A.A. meetings and at first decided they didn't want the program. But great numbers of these -- about two out of three -- began to return as time passed." ____________________________________________ That quotation is from the Foreword to the Second Edition, near the end. In the present (4th edit.) Big Book, it's on page xx. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7267. . . . . . . . . . . . 2% AA success rate? what article? what evidence cited? From: Michael Dunn . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2011 8:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It said in Message 7253 from "kimrowe24" http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7253 <> Can you give us a link to the article you mentioned? MY OWN OBSERVATIONS: The figures from GSO's surveys are accurate as designed, and as designed they cannot possibly agree with Bill's original measure of AA success. When I look at my own group, I feel as you do - measured as Bill did, we have a similar success rate as back then. One problem with the original has always been the statement "Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried"- who judges who "really tried", this is a pretty subjective measure. In my own group of 45 members, the average continuous sobriety is 19 years.So AA seems to be working fine in my neck of the woods. Michael D. Shediac NB, Canada IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7268. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate From: Sober186@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/23/2011 4:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sorry, but I just do not see how one can quantify the recovery rate of AA in any meaningful way, without general agreement on the definition of the term "alcoholic." What is an alcoholic? The book, alcoholics Anonymous gives us little help telling us we can judge ourselves but not others. In the Chapter The Doctors Opinion a definition is made. The doctor writes that: I personally know of scores of cases who were of the type with whom other methods had failed completely. They took a drink and the phenomena of craving at once became paramount to all other interests. In the chapter There is a solution there are different definitions: The tragic truth is that if the man be a true alcoholic ... He has lost control. At a certain point in the drinking of every alcoholic he passes into a state where the most powerful desire to stop drinking will not prevent him from getting drunk. In the Chapter More About Alcoholism, Bill seems to believe there were different kinds of alcoholics and that they were different from heavy drinkers. Alcoholics are men and women who have lost control over our drinking. ... Alcoholics of our type are in the grip of a progressive illness. ... alcoholics of our kind ... ... real alcoholics... So, is it possible that people were who were coming to the doors of AA in the early years could have been different than the kinds coming to the doors of AA today? I don't know but until we do, we at least need to allow for the possibility. similarly, how does one define accepting the program. In the early days, different groups had very different criteria for membership. In at least some, the newcomer needed to work all the steps before he was considered a full fledged member. And how does one define success. For instance, I have just over 25 years sobriety in AA. Previously, without attending any AA meetings or reading any AA material, i went nine years without drinking. What criteria do we use to define success, and when comparing today and yesterday, what criteria did old timers use to define success. Some, including Bill W. described himself as "recovered." Virtually no one does today. Are any of us successful, or even as successful as we want to be? Hopefully,with the help of a power greater than myself, I will be more successful tomorrow than I am today. We'll see about that. Love and serve, Jim L in Central Ohio IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7269. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2011 8:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I recall (I hope correctly) that the WHO study a few years ago revealed that AA in at least one country (perhaps it was Sweden -- my copy of the report is not immediately accessible) was compelled to accept money from the country's government, which insists on supporting all charitable groups (or perhaps all non-denominational charitable groups). There are certainly international variations in AA (anonymity in Mexico, for example, apparently means something quite different from what it means here), and AA does what it can in accordance with local laws and local customs. But this is our side of the street and that is the other side -- right? As I understand the history and structure of AA, our GSO and our AAWS and Grapevine boards and our Trustees generally have no particular authority -- which includes authority to interpret the traditions -- outside of what they have in the United States and Canada. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7270. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2011 9:17:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In 1986 AA in Great Britain was forced to ask the UK Parliament to pass an Act allowing the Fellowship to decline outside contributions. I've seen a copy of the Act on the wall in the archives department at GSO, New York. Copies are available from the British General Service Office at York (see AA GB website for contact details). The July 2007 issue of "Share" magazine (the GB equivalent of "Grapevine") carried this report: " 'Share' carried the following letter from Jim H., chairman of the General Service Board, in the March 1986 issue: Dear Members, Due to the recent publicity in the national Press regarding legacies, the General Service Board feel it necessary to issue the following statement: 'It has always been the policy of the Board to decline legacies, donations etc from outside sources, thus complying with the Seventh Tradition. Several months ago, a legacy was declined in the normal way but the solicitor (lawyer) concerned challenged our right, as a charity, to refuse monies and gave notice to pursue the matter through the courts. Losing our charitable status could lead to the forfeiture of all the Fellowship's assets. The Board had, therefore, no alternative but to place the matter in the hands of our solicitor and eventually to seek the opinion of counsel. Discussions took place over a lengthy period of time with representatives of the Treasury Solicitor's Department and the Charities Commission and it was finally clearly established that we would be in breach of charitable law if we refused outside contributions. The only solution available to us was to submit a Private Bill to Parliament which, is successful, would change the law and allow the Fellowship to decline all, or part of, any legacies, gifts etc. In effect this will enable the Fellowship to adhere strictly to the Seventh Tradition and at the same time conform to the law of the land. A more detailed report will be submitted to the 21st annual General Service Conference at the University of Manchester, 11-13 April 1986. "This is an extract from the Parliamentary Bill to which Jim H. refers and which was eventually passed into law: 'Alcoholics Anonymous is an inchoate fellowship whose members seek to overcome their addiction to alcohol by the practice and adherence to a code of principles which have evolved empirically since the fellowship was founded. Alcoholics Anonymous from time to time receives legacies or gifts of such magnitude as would, if accepted in whole, endanger the principle of self help upon which Alcoholics Anonymous operates: Difficulties in law have been found in disclaiming such legacies or gifts whilst securing the charitable purposes of the legacy or gift and been made more acute by the rule of law prohibiting disclaimer in part: It is expedient that the Company (i.e. AA) should be empowered to deal with legacies or gifts in such a way as to both uphold the principles of Alcoholics Anonymous and the charitable intent of the benefactor: May it therefore please Your Majesty that it may be enacted by the Queen's most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal and Commons, in this present Parliament, and by authority of the same, as follows ... The Company may if it thinks fit disclaim all or part of the property comprised in any relevant disposition...' (Alcoholics Anonymous [Dispositions] Act, 1986). "Share" then quoted the long form of the Seventh Tradition: "The AA groups themselves ought to be fully self supported by voluntary contributions of their own members. We think that each group should soon achieve this ideal; that any public solicitation of funds using the name of Alcoholics Anonymous is highly dangerous, whether by groups, clubs, hospitals, or other outside agencies; that acceptance of large gifts from any source or of contributions carrying any obligation whatever, is unwise. Then, too, we view with much concern those AA treasuries which continue, beyond prudent reserves, to accumulate funds for no stated AA purpose. Experience has often warned us that nothing can so surely destroy our spiritual heritage as futile disputes over property, money and authority." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7271. . . . . . . . . . . . Link to article about Red-Headed A.A. nurse Known as Teddy From: KATHERINE DI GIULIO . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2011 2:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If no one has sent this to you yet, here is a link to an article by Teddy. http://serenityfound.org/history/nurse.html Best, Katherine DiGiulio, Ph.D. Larkspur Productions, Inc. 45 Franklin Ave. Plainville, Connecticut 06062-1601 860.747.3992 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7272. . . . . . . . . . . . The modern medical definition of alcoholism as a disease From: jamesjharp@suddenlink.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/25/2011 4:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "... phenomenon of craving ..." Medical Definition - Disease - An impairment of health or a condition of abnormal functioning. These three (3) words, i.e., " ... phenomenon of craving" are contained five (5) times in the section called The Doctor's Opinion, William D. Silkworth, M.D., Alcoholics Anonymous, emphasizing clear unequivocal physiological component to alcoholism. This comprehensive definition of Alcoholism was published by the Journal of the American Medical Association in 1992. This definition was prepared by the Joint Committee to Study the Definition and Criteria for the Diagnosis of Alcoholism of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American Society of Addiction Medicine. Approved by the Boards of Directors of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence, Inc. (February 3, 1990) and the American Society of Addiction Medicine (February 25, 1990). Definition of Alcoholism -- published by the Journal of the American Medical Association "Alcoholism is a primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by continuous or periodic: impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, most notably denial." Primary refers to the nature of alcoholism as a disease entity in addition to and separate from other pathophysiologic states which may be associated with it. Primary states that alcoholism, as an addiction, is not a symptom of an underlying disease state. Disease means an involuntary disability. It represents the sum of the abnormal phenomena displayed by a group of individuals. These phenomena are associated with a specified common set of characteristics by which these individuals differ from the norm, and which places them at a disadvantage. Often progressive and fatal means that the disease persists over time and that physical, emotional, and social changes are often cumulative and may progress as drinking continues. Alcoholism causes premature death through overdose, organic complications involving the brain, liver, heart and many other organs, and by contributing to suicide, homicide, motor vehicle crashes, and other traumatic events. Impaired control means the inability to limit alcohol use or to consistently limit on any drinking occasion the duration of the episode, the quantity consumed, and/or the behavioral consequences of drinking. Preoccupation in association with alcohol use indicates excessive, focused attention given to the drug alcohol, its effects, and/or its use. The relative value thus assigned to alcohol by the individual often leads to a diversion of energies away from important life concerns. Adverse consequences are alcohol-related problems or impairments in such areas as: physical health (e.g., alcohol withdrawal syndromes, liver disease, gastritis, anemia, neurological disorders); psychological functioning (e.g., impairments in cognition, changes in mood and behavior); interpersonal functioning (e.g., marital problems and child abuse, impaired social relationships); occupational functioning (e.g., scholastic or job problems); and legal, financial, or spiritual problems. Denial is used here not only in the psychoanalytic sense of a single psychological defense mechanism disavowing the significance of events, but more broadly to include a range of psychological maneuvers designed to reduce awareness of the fact that alcohol use is the cause of an individual's problems rather than a solution to those problems. Denial becomes an integral part of the disease and a major obstacle to recovery. --End of definition -- Gratefully Yours, Jim H. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7273. . . . . . . . . . . . Denmark: AA groups and clubs paying rent From: bent_christensen5 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2011 6:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you so much all. I'll pass your experience to fellow AA members and hopefully we will be able to convince our General Service Board that they have chosen a dangerous path. All the Best Bent IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7274. . . . . . . . . . . . Canada: AA groups and clubs paying rent From: Murray Eaton . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/23/2011 11:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Murray Eaton Hello; Several years ago one of our groups here in Canada asked for a special rate because AA was a non-profit organization of a different type. The Community Hall went to the papers with the request who printed an article about AA wanting special treatment. The publicity was embarrassing and unwelcome and the request was a contravention of the 7th Tradition. 30 years ago I was told that we could not even accept such things as well-meaning Church Ladies making and donating sandwiches for our meetings or free coffee from a member who owned a restaurant on a regular basis. The group, as a whole, had to be self-supporting. The 7th Tradition is very clear about us being self-supporting and that means not accepting handouts even when they are there for the taking. Bill Wilson's explanation in the Twelve and Twelve is very detailed and one would hope it would be the final word. In Love and Service Murray E. Brampton, On. - - - - From: gary lockhart Gary up here in Canada, eh! Close to Niagara Falls. To my knowledge - all groups, meetings, districts, in our Area 86 - pay their own rent and in some cases - insurance, as some facilities are asking that of us. Some groups use the 7th Tradition monies for medallions and refreshments - while others are opposed to this practice as neither seems to be a part of traditional AA. Having served at various levels of our Service structure for the past 20+ years, I have yet to hear of a rent free facility. Gary - - - - From: Michael Dunn In my local area, AA groups meet in church halls and similar buildings, usually without rent required. My own group meets in two different buildings of this nature and we donate the equivalent of reasonable rent to the building owners. At one time we had a club in the closest city, the building was owned by a few AA members as a separate corporation in the name of the owners, the AA name was not used at all. The AA group was of course a separate entity and paid rent to the corporation. With the growth in the number of groups in the area, this club eventually closed its doors. Most meetings today are in churches, municipal facilities etc., though a few groups rent space in commercial buildings. Michael D. Shediac NB, Canada IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7275. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? From: edgarc@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2011 4:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Edgar C., Sober 186, Les Cole, and Jim Robbins - - - - From: edgarc@aol.com (edgarc at aol.com) The three groups in which I am active here in Sarasota, Florida, all pay rent for use of church facilities, as have all the groups I have been associated with in the past, both here and in the Chicago, Illinois area. One exception was a local hospital which offered us a free room for our weekly Traditions meeting. When the group conscience refused to challenge the no-rent status, a few of us including me left the group. There was a certain delicious irony in a Traditions meeting group consciously violating a basic Tradition through a group conscience vote. But we must remember that as Bill W said, every group has the right to be wrong. Edgar C, Sarasota, Florida - - - - From: Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com) Tradition three reads ... Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation. The group cited does not seem to have any other affiliation, so my call itself an A.A. group. Also, Tradition three also makes each group autonomous. The long form stays, "With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be responsible to no other authority than its own conscience." So, while I may have my own opinion on the matter, my opinion does not count unless I am a member of that home group. If so, I get a vote. My side will not always prevail. Tradition seven reads that A.A. groups 'ought to be' fully self supporting. IMHO, That means the tradition can be seen as a simply reminder to make sure the group and the body offering the space be separate. While I may personally feel that it is not be the best thing for a group to accept free rent there is nothing in the traditions to prevent it. As Bill wrote, each group should be free to make its own mistakes. Jim L. in Central Ohio - - - - From: LES COLE (elsietwo at msn.com) Hi All: Here is another thought about RENT for Fellowship Meeting space ... I think there is too much emphasis these days on "paying our own way" or "accepting no charity". Yes ... Fellowship meetings are for our own benefits, but the very existence of an AA group(s) in the community is in fact, a community service. Meetings are advertised (in various ways) so that new, unserved alcoholics, might become interested in the AA 12-steps process...and certainly, as a beginning, for fellowship with others who are recovering sobriety. Let's avoid myopia ast being a "poor" organization. We will not destroy the whole AA System if we use some good-old Vermont Common-Sense which characterized Bill's whole life !!!! I believe for example; that a church which offers a room for AA meetings, sees AA as a "charitable" organization and thereby is more than willing to offer its space for a nominal price or ... no-price-at-all! There is no need for us to get hung up on constantly trying to figure out what Bill Wilson advocated back in the 30s in everything we decide to do/think today. The fundamental message which Bill promoted was "FLEXIBILITY." He invented a system which works for many, many of us. It has been "all inclusive" from the beginning...and that means that the only question to be asked is: "Do you have a drinking problem which you would like to change?" With respect to current AAHL posts about "spirituality" ... let's also remember, that Bill did a lot of thinking as he grew up in a very small Vermont town where there was/is two formal churches ... one Catholic and one Congregational (plus a number of "free thinkers" like Mark Whalon). Bill rebelled against dogmatic beliefs during his youth, but he gradually began to develop the use of the word God as he became an adult ... and he never openly adopted a specific Religion as his own. When he married into the Burnham family, he learned everything about the Swedenborgian religion, and those tenets affected him daily. Les C Colorado Springs, Colorado - - - - From: "Jim Robbins" (jrobbins1123 at yahoo.com) In one group I attend, we pay rent each month. In another, we don't pay rent, but make a donation to a charitable cause in the landlord's name each month. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7276. . . . . . . . . . . . One dollar in the basket no longer works From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2011 8:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This discussion about AA groups paying rent touches off an important discussion about the 7th Tradition: that the "$1 in the basket" rule which came into being in the 60's is not working today, 50 years later-- and many groups are in financial trouble. This custom seems (in some cases) not to have changed. Has anyone seen a poster which touched on this (I think it's an Intergroup thing -- GSO has no opinion on this?) I saw it about 10 years ago and have not been able to find it since.... It went something like this: COFFEE: 1960 @ 10 cents a cup ......... 2000 @ $1.00 GAS: 1960 @ 27 cents a gallon ......... 2000 @ $2.00 CIGARETTES: 1960 @ 35 cents a pack ....... 2000 @ $3 CONTRIBUTION IN BASKET: 1960 @ $1.00 .. 2000 @ $1.00 As Bill once said "...tight as the bark on a tree..." LOL! Staying In Service, Cindy IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7277. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Name of book/author on 3 p''s: prestige, power and pocketbook From: dillonr9@yahoo.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/26/2011 9:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Victor Kitchen, in his book, I WAS A PAGAN (1934) cites 5 P's he was a pagan to: power, possession, position, pleasure and Applause. Perhaps this book was in Bill's mind. He may have read this book while a member of the Oxford Group since its author was also a member of the Oxford Group. Peace. - - - - From GC the moderator: Vic Kitchen and Bill Wilson both joined the Oxford Group in New York City at about the same time, and were friends. Kitchen gives an excellent picture of what the Oxford Group looked like (and how it functioned and what it taught) in the New York City area at the time Bill Wilson was active in the group. For the text of I Was a Pagan, see www.stepstudy.org and for a description of what the book taught, see http://hindsfoot.org/kchange1.html The Five P's passage is at the beginning of Chapter 1. I quote the opening of that chapter here: CHAPTER I THIS BUSINESS OF CHASING FALSE GODS PAGANISM At twenty, life looked like a high adventure -- intriguing and indecorous. At thirty, it looked like a high endeavor -- socially and economically important. By forty, however, I grew highly dubious. Life seemed to have lost flavor on both counts. It was then that I met the Oxford Group. At this time, I think, I would have described myself as "white, married and a Christian." Actually I was somewhat tarnished and discolored, married in name only, and very much of a pagan. A pagan is a man who spends his time chasing false gods. And I had spent forty years of my time in chasing "Pleasure," "Possessions," "Power," "Position" and "Applause." I now call these pagan goals my unfortunate five "P’s." - - - - Original Message from: "calistogababe" Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 Subject: Name of book/author on 3 p's: prestige, power and pocketbook There is a book, I have heard, that Bill W. read and used when he was writing the traditions. It was a comparative religion study that identified the 3 principles that were crucial for a successful spiritual fellowship. So the 3 p's to be careful of are: prestige, power and pocketbook. Does anyone know the name of that book or the author? Many thanks, Suzanne T. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7278. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate From: Kimball ROWE . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/25/2011 5:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Kimball Rowe, Ed O (Denton, Texas), and Steven Calderbank - - - - From: Kimball ROWE (roweke at msn.com) The Big Book does not attempt to define what an alcoholic is. It merely describes the alcoholic by general observations (loss of control, progressive, like us, etc.). I think this is done so the new person can identify and not be excluded. The book leaves the actual diagnosis up to each individual. If AA were to define what an alcoholic is, then someone would surely die (I'm not that bad, it doesn't apply, I've got a few good years left, etc.). The rate (percentage) given in the book and in my original message is not of those who recovered but of those who sobered up. It is very easy to quantify sobriety (not drinking). I think we all know people who got sober and did not recover (they are the ones with the white knuckles). The percentages given in the Big Book do not discuss the "early days." The early days was trial and error, hit or miss and many did not make it and some died. The percentages mentioned were in the foreword of the 2nd edition (1955) after the program of recovery had been thoroughly tested. As to how to define "accepting the program," I'm afraid I'm going to have to defer to the Big Book itself: The Big Book is precise, specific, detailed, exact, clear and all you need to begin: PRECISE: To show other alcoholics precisely how we have recovered is the main purpose of this book. (Foreword to the First Edition, xiii) SPECIFIC: "What do I have to do?" It is the purpose of this book to answer such questions specifically. (There is a Solution, pg 20) DETAILED: We shall tell you what we have done. Before going into a detailed discussion, it may be well to summarize some points as we see them. (There is a Solution, pg 20) EXACT: We had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a Power greater than ourselves. Obviously. But where and how were we to find this Power? Well, that's exactly what this book is about. (We Agnostics, pg 45) CLEAR CUT: Further on, clear cut directions are given showing how we recovered. (There is a Solution, pg 29) ALL YOU NEED: Thus we grow. And so can you, though you be but one man with this book in your hand, we believe and hope it contains all you will need to begin. (A Vision for You, pg 162-163) I know some still say that "our book is meant to be suggestive only" or that "more will be revealed." The book was written in 1939. Don't you think that if a better plan or a better idea had been devised by one of the countless thousands of geniuses that sobered up after 1939 that they would have included it in the first 164 pages of the book Alcoholics Anonymous? Even the brightest bulb in our fellowship has yet to add or remove anything from the original program of recovery. Thousands of people share in meeting these days on how they work "their program." And believe it or not, I'm ok with that, so long as they don't call it the AA program of recovery. People unable to accept the AA program of Alcoholics Anonymous generally find another way to say sober. AA has no monopoly upon therapy for the alcoholic (see page xxi). If you don't like the AA program, there are 48 other treatment modalities to choose from. I chose AA for a number of reasons. The first is that only AA has "Old-Timers." Laying aside the "percentages," only AA has a program of growth after recovery. This is not a program where you recover, then get sent away -- on the contrary, they ask you to come back. The people who help me do so from personal experience and not because a textbook tells them I am eligible for a class C intervention. In short, each person has the right to select their method of recovery, the AA program or something else. In general terms, if you thoroughly follow the path, completely give yourself to this simple program, are rigorously honest, go to any lengths, take certain steps, are fearless and thorough from the very start, let go of your old ideas absolutely, find a Higher Power, and take the suggestions, then I'd have to say you have accepted the program. I find no difference between the people coming through the doors today, and those coming through the doors when I first sobered up. I think the fundamental reason for this is that selfishness is still selfishness, self-centeredness is still self-centeredness, ego is still ego, an obsession is still an obsession, and that physical craving is still the same physical craving. Oh, the times have changed but the alcoholic did not. Some will say that we are under greater pressures today, but just try selling that bologna to the "Greatest Generation." I remember outhouses, crank phones and life without a TV. Those days did not stop my grandfather from drinking. Not did iPod force a drink down my throat. The ego, the obsession and the phenomenon of craving seem to be impervious to the environment. Not do I believe that alcoholism is genetic. If it were genetic, then why aren't we all in gene therapy? Have you ever seen a gene whose ego had to be smashed? For that matter, have you ever seen a gene with an ego? I do believe that it is a disease (so did Congress in Alcoholism Prevention, Treatment and Rehabilitation Act of 1970, also known as the Hughes Act. which declared alcoholism an illness and provided funding for treatment centers -- thus the explosion of treatment centers in the 70s). I also believe that it is an allergy provided you use the AMA's definition of an allergy: "An allergy is an abnormal reaction to a foreign substance." Alcohol is foreign to the human body and when I swallow it I react abnormally. The phenomenon of craving is not normal. The folks sobering up in the 30's had the same illness and the same allergy that I do. They wrote a book that solved their problem. They also wrote a book that solved my problem. Thus we are the same. I've been doing this for a long time. In conclusion I must say that defining the problem is not nearly as constructive as defining the solution. I find my solution in the book. - - - - From: "edcasey74" (personaminor at gmail.com) Jim, I think the only way to define sobriety in Alcoholics Anonymous is to go back to the Big Book. I understand that individual interpretations may vary, but I always try to look back at the collective experience of our founders when I hear anyone's individual experience. The title page of the Big Book says that this is "The story of how many thousands of men and women have recovered from alcoholism." This is a lot of hope, but before I can recover from alcoholism, I need to see if I'm an alcoholic. Of course this is something I need to diagnose for myself, but I need some information about alcoholism first. In summary, the book defines alcoholism as a hopeless state of mind and body. The body refers to the physical reaction to alcohol (the allergy which produces a craving). If I can drink without developing the phenomenon of craving, I'm not an active alcoholic (though I might yet become one in the future). The mind is the mental obsession. If I can choose to quit drinking and stay stopped on my own will power, I'm not an alcoholic (though I may progress). I'm sure you know all this, but it's surprising how many in AA don't. What came along with what you said about early AAs not being allowed into meetings until they had finished the steps (a very common practice for the first 20 years or so of AA's history) was a system of personal sponsorship, the first step of which was qualification. If you showed up at an early AA group (most of them), they assigned you a sponsor, and that man or woman sat down with you and qualified you as an alcoholic. If you didn't exhibit both the physical and mental symptoms, they made sure you understood that you were not an active alcoholic, and though you might yet become one, you didn't need AA. Of course, if you had both symptoms, wanted to quit drinking for good, and were willing to go to any lengths to stop, that man or woman would take you through the steps in a very short period of time (see "He Sold Himself Short," pg. 258 in the 4th ed.). Then that person would sponsor you into the meeting, their word that you had worked the steps being good enough to allow you in as a recovered alcoholic. In regards to the statistics in the Foreword to the Second Edition, many early groups kept membership records. They also took attendance; it was the secretary's job to make sure all members were present, and if someone was absent, the secretary would get someone to call or visit that person and make sure everything was okay (or 12th-step them). If you showed up at a group for your first time, it was also the secretary's responsibility to assign you a sponsor. So in many of the early groups, they knew exactly how many people were coming, and how many were sticking. Nowadays we don't keep the same kinds of stats, so it's difficult to make the same kind of report. In my own experience, I don't see those kind of success rates in most groups in my area. When I visit a group that I've going to for a while, I don't often see many people who were sober when I got there. We'll have lots of newcomers and people with a couple of years, and a couple of guys with over 20 years, but hardly anyone between 3 and 15 years. It's very odd. People will come for a while, but they don't tend to stick for a very long time. I know the Program works, but obviously something is different around here. Ed O - Denton, Texas - - - - From: "Steven" (steven.calderbank at verizon.net) The whole notion of AA's success rates seems foolish, much like trying to quantify who in church will go to Heaven. How does one measure "those who really tried"? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7279. . . . . . . . . . . . An additional way to quantify the AA success rate From: gcdavid1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/29/2011 9:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII An additional way to use some fairly precise historical data already in our possession, to at least roughly quantify the early AA success rate: I couldn't help but think of the "numbers" printed on the inside of the Big Book's dust jacket. It gives some good clues as to AA's "success rate" between 1939, 1955 and 1976. It states that "in 1955 membership had reached over 150,000, and the Big Book had reached a distribution of more than 300,000." That is right on the 50% mark, as stated by Bill in the foreword to the second edition. It goes on to say in "March 1976, worldwide membership of AA was estimated at 1,000,000 or more. Copies of "Alcoholics Anonymous" in circulation (1st and 2nd editions) exceeded 1,450,000. It appears that between 1955 and 1976 the "rate" of recovery based on the number of Big Books out there and the membership estimation, the rate was well over 60%. David M, on the road .... IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7280. . . . . . . . . . . . The modern definition of alcoholism used in AAWS literature From: bxdennis . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/27/2011 7:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I want to thank Jim H. for bringing to light the current medical definition of alcoholism. This is also the definition used in modern AA literature employed by AA Area committees for Cooperation with the Professional Community, etc. See AAWS pamphlet (P-23) "AA as a Resource for the Healthcare Professional," where the footnote appears: ============================================== *The definition of alcoholism as defined by the American Society of Addiction Medicine and the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence: "Alcoholism is a primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, most notably denial. Each of these symptoms may be continuous or periodic." (1992) ============================================== This pamphlet is used primarily by the Cooperation with the Professional Community, Public Information and Treatment Facilities Committees in carrying the AA message. Dennis M. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7281. . . . . . . . . . . . The two-dollar bill in the basket strategy From: edgarc@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/26/2011 5:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A few of us here in Sarasota, Florida routinely stop in a bank and buy $2 bills then use those for the collection basket. Many people comment, and we hope some follow the lead by going from $1 to a couple of singles. Edgar C TO SEE WHAT ONE LOOKS LIKE, GO TO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_two-dollar_bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7282. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: One dollar in the basket no longer works From: Janis R . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/25/2011 6:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Janis Raley, Doug Barrie, aalogsdon, and So. Jersey Ginger - - - - From: "Janis R" (janis at aadallas.org) We have free posters comparing the prices you are talking about that we produce in house. It is for 2009 but we are going to update later this year. If anyone wants one let me know. Janis S. Raley Director, Dallas Intergroup Assn. phone 214-887-6699 email (janis at aadallas.org) - - - - From: "Doug B." (dougb at aahistory.com) Cindy, I have copies of the large and small posters, and the 2 handouts that were part of this campaign in the year 2000. The man who started it was a wealthy member who tried to contribute a large amount of money to the GSO and was turned down because of the size of the check. He then decided to launch this campaign aimed at sending these materials to all of the central offices (at his expense) to get the groups and individuals to contribute more to make up for the shortfalls we were thought to be experiencing. I tried to call the man and interview him in December 2004 but he had died a month earlier. Doug Barrie E-MAIL: dougb@aahistory.com (dougb at aahistory.com) - - - - From: Aalogsdon (aalogsdon at aol.com) I have the poster from ten years ago, which Cindy referred to, and assume that they can be reproduced. - - - - From: vvpeachy@aol.com (vvpeachy at aol.com) Hello Cindy! I'm Ginger and used to volunteer in our Intergroup Office when this poster arrived and we used it for a while, saying we neither endorsed nor opposed it. My memory says it came from Las Vegas Intergroup, unsure. My group approves this being left on our flyer table. We neither endorse nor oppose. FYI ONLY left on the IG hand-outs tables... Common sense and facing our problems, including $, keeps my faith strong. God Bless, So. Jersey Ginger (Live, Love, Learn, Laugh! Ginger F. & Ron B.) - - - - Original Message from: Cindy Miller Sent: Fri, Mar 25, 2011 Subject: One dollar in the basket no longer works This discussion about AA groups paying rent touches off an important discussion about the 7th Tradition: that the "$1 in the basket" rule which came into being in the 60's is not working today, 50 years later-- and many groups are in financial trouble. This custom seems (in some cases) not to have changed. Has anyone seen a poster which touched on this (I think it's an Intergroup thing -- GSO has no opinion on this?) I saw it about 10 years ago and have not been able to find it since.... It went something like this: COFFEE: 1960 @ 10 cents a cup ......... 2000 @ $1.00 GAS: 1960 @ 27 cents a gallon ......... 2000 @ $2.00 CIGARETTES: 1960 @ 35 cents a pack ....... 2000 @ $3 CONTRIBUTION IN BASKET: 1960 @ $1.00 .. 2000 @ $1.00 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7283. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA groups paying rent in Great Britain From: joe . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/29/2011 6:27:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII With respect to message #7270 from Laurie Andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7270 LAURIE SAID: In 1986 AA in Great Britain was forced to ask the UK Parliament to pass an Act allowing the Fellowship to decline outside contributions. I've seen a copy of the Act on the wall in the archives department at GSO, New York. Copies are available from the British General Service Office at York (see AA Great Britain website for contact details). The July 2007 issue of "Share" magazine (the Great Britain equivalent of "Grapevine") carried this report .... I have seen the text of this Act posted on the wall of the Great Britain GSO Archives display in York, England. It is a powerful spiritual example of going any lengths to adhere to our traditions. However, the solicitors (lawyers) on both sides had a hand in it. The law passed, in practice, could result in money donated to AA Grat Britain not actually be returned to the family of the donor, but instead be sent to another registered charity that does alcohol research (of a sort that AA may or may not agree with -- research that we certainly do not endorse or oppose in any way). I am looking through my files to see if I can find a copy of how it is written, but the large ornamental one that I saw was framed on the wall. Roger W. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7284. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? From: Mike Batty . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/26/2011 10:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Mike Batty, Sherry Hartsell, George C., Lynn Sawyer, Larry Tooley, and David Brown - - - - Mike Batty (mcbat.t at rogers.com) A meeting that was started here in our town in a facility that refuses to take rent presented us with a bit of a dilemma. These digs are superb but the mandate of the owner was to allow community groups free use of their facility when not needed for their own purposes and they refuse rental payments. The accommodations are fantastic as this is a first rate separate building on the grounds of a funeral home that is known as their family center and use for after service gatherings. China cups, broadloom, gorgeous furniture, fireplace, comfortable seating. You could not ask for anything better. We solved the problem by giving them money to donate to their favorite charity and also a monthly contribution to their paid attendant who often has the coffee on and the fireplace going when the first of us arrives. They did take that money and we feel we have appeased ourselves with the seventh tradition. Call it what you will, donation, honorarium, rent, we feel we are paying our way. We feel we solved our dilemma. BTW we had considered naming ourselves the "Grateful We Aren't Dead" but out of deference to the location just decided on "Early Birds" as we meet at 8 am. Mike Batty, Waterloo, Ontario - - - - From: "Sherry C. Hartsell" (hartsell at etex.net) Many institutions like churches and hospitals are forbidden by their set-up to CHARGE rent, most groups deal with that by making a CONTRIBUTION to their Building Maintenance Fund, find the financial officer, they'll accept it that way, at least all have in my experience. Sherry C. H. Pittsburg, Texas AA Group - - - - From: "george" (clevelandgeorgem at gmail.com) I'm the director of a non-profit facility in New Hampshire that hosts seven 12 step meetings a week. Almost all are AA. All of those groups pay us something. The highest is $40 per month. We have a new 11th Step meeting that's started and runs right after a regular meeting. Because it's new and word is still getting out, we aren't charging them. Most of these meetings are at night. It's cold in New Hampshire. Cold means ice which means sand which means dirt all over the floor. The same floor that is used for yoga or exercise classes the next morning. And there's heat. We don't ask or expect the groups to spit shine the floor. But it takes one of us a bit of time to redo the room. "Expecting" free room use is not reasonable. I would wager that 99.7% of AA groups pay for the coffee they use. Would the No Rent faction leave a meeting that used 7th Tradition funds to pay for the coffee? A good argument could be made for groups to only buy Fair Trade coffee so they feel comfortable that the workers are being fairly paid and don't have to resort to drugs to augment their income ... and so on down the rabbit hole. My humble interpretation of working the Steps includes a sponsor showing me how to make financial amends and learning to pay my bills; not looking for easier, softer way. Our staff and our board consider it part of OUR responsibility to the community to make meeting space available. And needless to say, I like having a meeting I don't have to drive to ... George - - - - From: Lynn Sawyer (sawyer7952 at yahoo.com) Dear Bent, Can only speak for my area. I'm in Northern California, USA, and almost all of our groups are self-supporting, in terms of paying rent, as is recommended by our Traditions. Maybe you've gotten some responses from elsewhere, too ......... Lynn S. keepin' it simple Sacramento, California, USA - - - - From: "Larry Tooley" (wa9guu at charter.net) Yes but: my old sponsor said we are to get back into the mainstream of society. We pay our own way. We AA's need to learn that. Our church needs to see that. If you don't get much money give half for rent. Sadly one bloke accepted free two big fans as charity. Are we a welfare society now? Larry T, Centralia, Illinois - - - - From: David Brown (copperas44 at yahoo.com) The dangerous path is the wrong path as it ignores the premise of the traditions .... fight to make sure that this does not stand. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7285. . . . . . . . . . . . Kistler''s Donut Shop From: joe . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/26/2011 11:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I searched earlier posts and the internet regarding the tradition of serving coffee and donuts in early meetings. I remember (or think I do) reading about a group who went to a donut shop after the meeting, but because of the depression era economy of the 1930's decided to bring donuts to the meeting for those who could not afford the luxury of going to the donut shop. It may have been Kistler's Donut shop in Akron, which is no longer there. If anyone can point me to such a story I would be grateful. I am scanning AA Comes of Age, Dr. Bob and Good Oldtimers, or Pass it On where it might be but haven't found it again yet. Roger - - - - From the moderator: see http://hindsfoot.org/nfirst.html for one reference, to Glenn Chesnut's article on the early Akron AA figure J. D. Holmes, citing Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers page 147. This was around early 1938, and J. D. was describing the early Akron AA get-togethers: ============================================== "Ernie's mother used to throw a party every two weeks during this period. She'd make the doughnuts, and though everybody was broke, we all brought something. It was nothing unusual to see 25 or 30 people over there drinking coffee and eating doughnuts." ============================================== IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7286. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: God as we understood Him: atheists and agnostics From: rajiv . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/27/2011 5:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Rajiv and Bruce K. - - - - From: "rajiv" (rajiv.BeHappy at gmail.com) The 12 Steps given in the Big Book are the steps which the authors had taken, because they have said "These are the steps we took ..." in introducing the 12 Steps. So when they write "God as we understood Him," it can only mean God as the authors understood Him. And they have explained their understanding of God in the previous chapter 'We Agnostics.' In this chapter they begin by telling us that about half of them were either atheists or agnostics when they came to AA. So first of all they define the term 'Power greater than ourselves' as a 'power by which we could live', pg 45. Websters Dictionary says that in the English writing system, 'unfamiliar words when first introduced and defined in a text' are usually italicized. As we are not powers there can be no such thing as a 'power greater than us' or a 'Power greater than ourselves'. These expressions are semantically absurd and so, not to be found in written English. Bill was an expert in written English; as it had been his job to scrutinize Stock-proxy and legal documents. So when he first introduced the unfamiliar expression 'Power greater than ourselves' in the Big Book for the first time on page 45, he italicized it and explained it as a 'power by which we could live.' Thus having defined what the authors meant by God, Power and Power greater than ourselves, they explained their understanding of God on page 55: that it was a Power that could only be found deep down within ourselves. And they also tell us that 'It may be obscured by calamity, by pomp, by worship of other things, but in some form or the other it is there.' This I believe, is what the book means by saying God as we understood Him. Rajiv - - - - From: bruceken@aol.com (bruceken at aol.com) I am an atheist with regard to a "person" God and I'm a man with 24 years of joyful sobriety. Yet I try not to evangelize my views in AA. I only discuss my perception of our higher power if the topic of discussion is "God" or "religious spirituality" and then only to emphasize to any newcomers that is not necessary to believe in the God of our childhood in order to get sober and have a full, productive and creative life. The whole subject is so full of semantic hazards, that it is almost impossible to discuss it in a meaningful way without a lengthy elaboration. Bruce K. San Francisco IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7287. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anne Ripley Smith''s Birth Year From: Doug B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/28/2011 12:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The digital archives at the Grapevine web site also has March 21 for her birth date. Doug B. www.aahistory.com ________________________________________ Original Message from Arthur S. Subject: Re: Anne Ripley Smith's Birth Year Date: 03/24/11 > MARCH 21, NOT MARCH 3 > > Although it can't be distributed, the attached is a scan of the June 1950 Grapevine article. It clearly states "March 21, 1881 - June 1, 1949." > > Since the article was written a year after Anne's passing, and Dr Bob was still living, I'd prefer to give credence to it as opposed to the other cited sources. > > I'd appreciate seeing a copy of the June 1950 article (not a transcription) that shows "March 3, 1881 -- June 1, 1949" as stated below. > > Cheers > Arthur > ________________________________________ > > From: OedipusTax > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 > Subject: Re: Anne Ripley Smith's Birth Year > > Contrary to what Arthur S. and Jim Blair said, the June 1950 Grapevine article does not say March 21 but March 3: > > Anne Ripley Smith > March 3, 1881 -- June 1, 1949 > The Loving "Spiritual Rock" of Early A.A. > Wife of Dr. Bob > "The Mother of A.A." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7288. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/28/2011 9:26:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII After referring correctly to Tradition Three (on forming a group) Sober86 has (doubtless unintentially) then referred to Tradition Three when Tradition Four is the one meant (on group autonomy) -- but, more to the point, the autonomy noted in Tradition Four is not absolute -- the form discussed in the 12&12 (short or current form) reads "Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole" (the long form talks about bringing matters to the attention of the Trustees or GSO) -- and, of course, what one group is known to do will affect what other nearby groups do. As an example, when a group in the town where I live voted without notification at a closed meeting to open that closed meeting to a non-member and claimed that this was a "group-conscience" vote -- thereby going against a considerable weight of AA literature on "group conscience" and the need for an informed group conscience -- the non-member in question continued to accompany that non-member's "significant other" to other closed meetings. On being challenged, the person in question said "Well, the other group said I could come, so I'm coming" and became highly indignant when the difference between closed and open meetings was explained: I should mention that this was the fourth closed meeting this person had tried to attend (though the first attempt at the group that tried to explain the matter). As to accepting support from outside A.A., the example of one group's (say) allowing non-members to put money in the basket, or another's selling raffle tickets or dance tickets for fundraising to non-members, is considered by some AAs to be the kind of breach in the wall that is likely to bring the whole structure down eventually (and thus obviously a matter affecting A.A. as a whole). I have heard the reply, when a group treasurer said, "well it's only a little bit" -- "Yes, and it was only a little slip -- but the guy lost his sobriety." As with alcohol, I suspect, the safe course would be abstinence, so that it's not necessary to argue over size of outside donation -- or the motive in taking it. But however the argument on those points would come out, what I've seen in studying the development of the Tradition, is that the matter of who can contribute has been deemed (by quite a number of AAs over the years) a matter affecting A.A. as a whole -- see, for example, the ruckus over transportation and other costs and abeyance of costs at the san Diego International in 1995. ________________________________________ AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 Subject: Re: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? > From: Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com) > > Tradition three reads ... Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation. The group cited does not seem to have any other affiliation, so my call itself an A.A. group. > > Also, Tradition three also makes each group autonomous. The long form stays, "With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be responsible to no other authority than its own conscience." So, while I may have my own opinion on the matter, my opinion does not count unless I am a member of that home group. If so, I get a vote. My side will not always prevail. > > Tradition seven reads that A.A. groups 'ought to be' fully self supporting. IMHO, That means the tradition can be seen as a simply reminder to make sure the group and the body offering the space be separate. > > While I may personally feel that it is not be the best thing for a group to accept free rent there is nothing in the traditions to prevent it. > > As Bill wrote, each group should be free to make its own mistakes. > > Jim L. in Central Ohio IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7289. . . . . . . . . . . . San Quentin Radio Play From: jaxena77 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/29/2011 7:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I came across an interesting mention in one of Bill W's convention speeches from Cleveland in July 1950. I am looking for a transcript or audio recording of a radio dramatization of AA life in prison that Bill W. made reference to in his "We Come of Age" speech. Here is an excerpt of his speech: Next came that wonderful session on prisons. Our great friend, Warden Duffy told the startling story of our original group at San Quentin. His account of A.A.`s 5-year history there had a moving prelude. We heard a recording, soon for radio release, that thrillingly dramatized an actual incident of A.A. life within the walls. An alcoholic prisoner reacts bitterly to his confinement and develops amazing ingenuity in finding and drinking alcohol. Soon he becomes too ingenious. In the prison paint shop he discovers a promising fluid which he shares with his fellow alcoholics. It was deadly poison. Harrowing hours followed, during which several of them died. The whole prison was tense as the fatalities continued to mount. Nothing but quick blood transfusions could save those still living. The San Quentin A.A. Group volunteered instantly and spent the rest of that long night giving of themselves as they had never given before. A.A. hadn't been any too popular, but now prison morale hit an all time high and stayed there. Many of the survivors joined up. The first Prison Group had made its mark; A.A. had come to San Quentin to stay. I have been researching the history of AA in prisons, specifically San Quentin for a number of years and this particular item would be so important to the Western Area archives, and my own work. Where could I start looking for this recording or script? P.S. On a side note, I have also been looking for transcripts or recordings of Bill W's speech in San Quentin in the 50's. I have not yet contacted the prison itself. Thank you! Jackie B IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7290. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Kistler''s Donut Shop From: robtwoodson . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2011 9:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Roger, One difficulty in your search may be the fact that the name of Kistler's donut shop is misspelled (as Kessler's) in an early account by Wally G. (Gilliam) that is included in Dr.Bob and the Good Oldtimers" on P. 141 in the Chapter titled "Early Meetings and Big Book controversies" quoted below... "After the meeting closed with the Lord's Prayer, all the men beat it to the kitchen for coffee, and most of the women sat around talking to each other," said Wally, "Usually the social part of the evening lasted an hour to an hour and a half. But it wasn't until we started going to Kessler's Donut Shop that it became a real social hour." While I cannot document the following at this time, perhaps someone can; here in Akron, one understanding is that the donut shop routine continued until the donut shop itself was essentially outgrown by the fellowship. At the point when the donut shop became too crowded and that seating was no longer available for everyone after the meeting, eventually someone came up with the bright idea of taking the donuts back to the meeting ... (which at that time would have been King School). Hope that this may be helpful, Be a good guy and keep your powder dry, Woody in Akron IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7291. . . . . . . . . . . . Early California AA meetings: coffee and doughnuts etc. From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2011 4:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sybil C on one of her tapes talked about the first meeting she attended on the West Coast. In Los Angeles, the first half of the meeting was open to both husbands and wives. The second half was just for the alcoholic men. It was believed at that time women couldn't be alcoholic. At the break, the wives would prepare refreshments, which were enjoyed at the end of the meeting. When it came time for the women to leave, Sybil was told to go with the other women. At that point she broke down and cried. She desperately needed help. They took a vote and she was able to stay. She became the first sober woman west of the the Mississippi. In both San Bernardino and Riverside, California, the first meetings were held in members' homes. They were open meetings and both husband and wives attended and both stayed until the end of the meeting. After the meeting the host served coffee and occasionally cookies or cake. Most of the wives objected to a lot of coffee being drunk because it would keep their husbands awake all night. According to Drew S. from San Bernardino, California, who got sober in 1942, coffee and refreshments weren't served at any meeting, outside of homes he knew until they started meeting in local churches that had kitchens. In the North Hollywood area, I had heard of one group had a social hour before the meeting, where they had coffee and donuts. This gave time for older members to get to know some of the newer ones and others to just have some socializing before the meeting. Also mostly the big cities had coffee shops that were open late or even 24 hours a day. The early meetings in Southern California didn't start until 8:30 or 9:00 at night and weren't over til 10 or 10:30. So it was very unlikely anyone went out for coffee after a meeting unless it was in LA or other big city. I have also been told the idea of having coffee and refreshments during meetings didn't really catch on in SoCal until after they held several public meetings where they had coffee and refreshments available at the beginning and throughout the entire meeting. The sober drunks liked the idea of sipping coffee while listening to a speaker so that is how the practice helped get started there. Hope this helps Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7292. . . . . . . . . . . . Anne Smith''s date of birth March 21, 1881 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2011 2:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Baileygc23 has done some excellent detective work, for which we all owe him a debt of thanks. Both the State of Ohio death certificate AND her obituary in the Akron Beacon Journal say that Anne Smith was born on March 21, 1881 and died on June 1, 1949. (She died in the morning on June 1st, and her death notice was front page news in that evening's edition of the Akron Beacon Journal.) ======================================= PHOTOS OF THE NEWSPAPER OBITUARY AND THE DEATH CERTIFICATE: Go to http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html and go about two-thirds of the way down the page, to the section entitled "More on early Akron AA," with a photo of Sister Ignatia playing the organ in the St. Thomas Hospital chapel, and a photo of a Renner's Beer wagon. The Anne Smith material is at the end of that section: Anne Smith's Ohio death certificate and Akron Beacon Journal newspaper obituary, at http://hindsfoot.org/annesmt2.html Also Anne Smith's Journal: copy of the text, at http://hindsfoot.org/annesmth.html ======================================= From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 To: Ask A Librarian - ES Subject: Anne Smith Anne Smith, nee Ripley, was the wife of AA's Dr Robert Smith. Her date of death was June 1, 1949. There is some confusion over her date of birth. We have two different dates, the third and the twenty first. If you have the information on her date of birth from her death notice or obit, and can list your source, I would appreciate it and would post it on a history site on the subject. Regards, George C. Bailey 301 972 0992 ______________________________ In a message dated 4/4/2011 8:12:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, SPECCOLLECTIONS@akronlibrary.org writes: Mr. Bailey, I checked two sources: a transcription of Anne Smith's State of Ohio death certificate, available online through https://www.familysearch.org/ and her obituary, which appeared in the Akron Beacon Journal on June 1, 1949 on p. 1 (she had died in the morning and the paper was delivered in the evening). Both these sources state her date of birth as March 21, 1881. If you need copies of these, let me know. Our fee would be $1.10 and I can send them through regular mail or as digital images through email. Thank you, Jane Gramlich Librarian, Special Collections Akron-Summit County Public Library 60 South High Street, Akron, Ohio 44326 (330) 643-9030 speccollections@akronlibrary.org (speccollections at akronlibrary.org) ______________________________ The one other place to check would be to go to the Illinois place where she was born and see if there is a birth certificate there. I think it is Oak Park adjacent to Chicago. George IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7293. . . . . . . . . . . . How AA got started in the U.K. From: A from near Maldon, England, . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2011 6:09:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings all, I found these 2002 messages following a search for 'Lincoln Williams'. I was prompted to make a search of his name, following a stumbling across a book by said Dr Lincoln Williams called "TO EACH HIS MEMORIES (A PSYCHIATRIST LOOKS BACK ON HIS TREATMENT OF ALCOHOLICS" copyright LINCOLN WILLIAMS, 1970, made and printed privately for the author by Regency Press LONDON and NEW YORK. The jacket cover blurb mentions his other publication, "Tomorrow Will Be Sober" in 1960. No doubt these are familiar to AA UK history aficionados, but just in case not, I give this info. I came across this book in my parents' possessions, which one or other seems to have purchased second-hand for £1.55 sterling, judging by a pencil mark on the inside cover. The original price from the fly-leaf (that is, when the book was new) was 30 shillings, which would be £1.50 in the present decimal currency (the U.K. shifted from pounds-shillings-pence to the decimal system in February 1971). Anyway, I have just got to the section where he mentions his first contact with A.A. in chapter XXII, page 81 after he sailed on the famous ocean liner the Mauretania in September 1947 to investigate having met Bob, Chris and Norman in London after replying to an advert in The Financial Times. I am a little surprised there is only one reference to Lincoln Williams on the site but at least there is now one other. Are his books well known amongst the AA history students? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Fiona" Nancy Olson wrote: > > Hi, Buffs: > > Our wonderful friend in England, Max C. has sent me some information on AA in the UK. I find it fascinating and hope you will too. > > Nancy > > Max writes: > > For the sake of brevity and clarity, this takes the form of a skeleton chronology; something that may be fleshed out more fully according to interest and contributions from other members. I am particularly interested in any recollections USA members may have about their attendance at UK meetings. > > As you know, I am new to AA history, apart from my own of course, but it is entirely possible now to delve in depth into archive material, which I hope to be able to do eventually: This is just a timely offering drawn from sources immediately to hand, without further research. So here goes: > > 1946 JULY > The earliest official record appears to be a letter to the N.Y. central office from Dorothy HE, an American who had been living in London for an unspecified period. She gave as her replacement contact for London the name of Chris B. He apparently was 12-stepped by Albert T, that friendly Fifth Avenue tailor who was so helpful to Bill W, and of course to AA as a whole. Conor P met Richard P in Ireland at this time. > > 1947 - MARCH > Grace O, an American AA and her (non-AA) husband Fulton were on a visit to London. She was armed with a contact list provided by GSO N.Y., which included the Chris B mentioned above. There were also to be found in London at that date: Bob B, a Canadian who got sober in N.Y. some 19 months previously; a US serviceman Vernon W, a founder member of AA in Bermuda; and Norman R-W, an Englishman who 'wanted to want to get sober'. > > Grace O convened a meeting at the Dorchester Hotel, Park Lane, which was held in her room there. In addition to those mentioned above, she managed to pull in Patricia G, an AA from California who she had met on the ship coming over; an American stunt driver, Flash W, and an Irish airman, Tony (Pat) F. > > The meeting went ahead and marks the beginning of AA proper in England. Bob B, known after as 'Canadian' Bob, became its Secretary. > > I shall refer later to the difficulty experienced by the fledgling group in placing advertising for potential membership. > > Later in 1947, the journal of the British Medical Association, "The Lancet", mentioned AA in an article and Dr. Lincoln Williams, who had laboured long in the field of alcoholism, with little success, took a strong supportive interest in AA from then on. I shall refer to this later. > > 1948 - JANUARY > Lottie T joined the London group as the first woman newcomer. She became > Secretary later that year when Canadian Bob went to work in N. Rhodesia on a contract. > > Bill H, who was "An English Greengrocer" in early editions of the BB, was 12-stepped by Canadian Bob. Bill H set up the first AA telephone service at his office. > > 1948 -- AUGUST: Marty M is guest speaker at a "large open meeting" and "performed a miracle" on her visit to London, according to Lottie T. > > Vernon W, the US serviceman, registered an objection regarding meeting format concerning the Lord's Prayer and passing the hat at open meetings. I shall refer to this later. > > NOVEMBER: First meeting of the Manchester group. British AA membership hits 100. > > 1949 - JANUARY > Membership had risen to 120 > > MAY > Lottie T has serious slip. Bill W declines invitation to visit London as "the time for such a trip is still early", but expressed his delight with "the way things are going, on your tight little island." > > Edinburgh First and Glasgow Central groups officially established, after encouragement by Marty M. > > First Liverpool group established. > > 1950 - JUNE > Bill W and Lois, accompanied by Agnes F, commence their tour of English, Irish and Scottish groups, staying in London at Brown's Hotel, Mayfair. More about this later. > > Bill W was able to resolve the long standing problem of non-availability of AA literature caused by currency exchange control and customs regulations. > > 1951 - APRIL > First Welsh group meets in Cardiff, among those present was Sackville from Dublin, famous for (among other things) this epigram : "AA members are like paratroopers jumping from the aircraft. The 12 Steps are the parachute. It's suggested you pull the rip-cord, but it's entirely optional." > > London service office established in Chelsea, serving UK and Ireland. > > 1953 > First "Blue Bonnets" convention held at Dumfries. > > 1955 > London telephone service consolidated at Chelsea office UK membership estimated to be 5000 > > 1956 > First UK AA convention held at Cheltenham > > 1957 > Inaugural meeting of the GSB of Alcoholics Anonymous (Great Britain and Ireland) Limited > > 1958 > Visit to London by Hank, General Secretary of AA N.Y. office, whose advice on legacies led to an Act of Parliament enabling AA, a registered charity, to refuse all legacies. > > 1960 > The Rowntree Trust issue a brochure on alcoholism to 23,000 doctors; this included a short piece about AA. > > The Joint Committee of the British Medical Association and the Magistrates' Association meet with two members of the AA UK GSB. > > 1962 > Government Department of Health recognised alcoholism as a disease. > > 1966 - OCTOBER > First General Service Conference of AA UK held in Manchester > AA UK 21st Birthday party at Grosvenor House, Park Lane, London > > 1969 > First World Service meeting in N.Y. > > 1971 - JANUARY > Bill W died. Heavy press coverage in UK > > General Service Conference reports that 40 AA groups had been established within prisons 1971 > > First European Convention of AA meets in UK > > 1972 > Second World Service meeting in N.Y. adopts London as 1974 venue > Only 10 penal establishments without AA contact in UK > > 1974 > Republic of Ireland sets up own service board, separates from GSB AA UK > London hosts third World Service meeting. > Marie O appointed as office manager at Chelsea, runs first 'professional' telephone service. > > 1977 > Meetings held for first time with the Confederation of British Industry, the Trades Union Congress and the Government Department of Health and Social Security, leading to the publication of the Public Information workbook in 1980. > > 1978 > World Service Meeting, Helsinki, Finland, establishes European Information Centre at GSO London > > 1983 > Establishment of 15th (English Speaking) European Region, mainly for American servicemen. > > 1986 > GSO moved to York, leaving only London Region telephone service in Chelsea. > > 1988 > Marie retired, replaced by Maria as manager of London Region telephone office, Chelsea > > 1997 > AA UK 50th Anniversary > > 1999 > Chelsea telephone office moved to N. London Maria retired > John H took over as manager with wider brief +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > That is a bare bones outline which I hope will meet the immediate need. > > There are many apparent gaps, within which the small platoons of AA and the unsung hero(ine)s are still doing their stuff, anonymously, if not necessarily quietly. > > As Bill W writes in AA Comes of Age, "in London and Liverpool we met many very anonymous Englishmen". Anecdotal evidence suggests that one Liverpool group was so well hidden away that they could not be found and Bill never did get to the meeting. I have not yet read 'Lois Remembers' and wonder if she had anything to say about the trip. > > In England, we do not have circuit Speakers or prominent AA personality figures, generally speaking, just AAs who include, of course, many titled people, sporting and entertainment 'stars' and the like, who for the most part retain a low profile within AA, and anonymity outside AA, whilst making their valuable contribution to the Fellowship. > > It seems very clear that Marty M and Bill W, on their respective visits, were able to open the minds of the UK Pioneers to a fuller understanding of what AA is all about: similarly GSO N.Y. went to 'any lengths' to sponsor UK people appropriately in the service function. > > Of the many things we AAs seem to have in common outside the alcoholism is a certain propensity to ask ourselves at many junctures: "what the hell's (been) going on here?". I certainly do. We can only clear the ground a little. I will attempt to do that with the second part of this "potted history", where questions left hanging, such as Brown's Hotel and the Oxford Groups, English anonymity, the National Health Service and the psycho- versus bio- genic adversarial debate on alcoholism, which seems to contrive to dynamite the bridge of spirituality: the foundation precept of AA. > > Some of this may be speculative or anecdotal, and could border on opinion; so I shall submit it to you first for editing, Nancy, if you do not mind, because I would not wish, unwittingly, to "engage in any controversy": indeed there is no useful purpose in that, bearing in mind the bridges AA has built over the years, (some of which are listed above) between religion, medicine and psychiatry. Those bridges seem to me to have modified much prejudice and ignorance about alcoholism, principally by adopting an attitude of open-mindedness and taking action informed by experience, as with our sobriety, odaat. > > Yours in fellowship, Max C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7294. . . . . . . . . . . . New corrected version of the Pre-AA History Book 1926-35 From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/2/2011 9:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I recently published to the web a book titled, "A Pre-AA History Book, A Study of Synchronic Events Between Years 1926 and 1935 which Culminated in the Birth of Alcoholics Anonymous." Among the many comments I received were those pointing to mistakes in grammar and punctuation. But fortunately, a kind lady editor, Nancy K. from California, donated her time and expertise to correcting my many errors. Consequently, I am now posting this new improved version. http://www.aamuncie.org/files/Pre_AA_History_Book_2011.pdf My apologies for being a better high school whiskey drinker than English student! Bob S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7295. . . . . . . . . . . . Reflection for the annual memorial Mass for Sr. Ignatia Gavin, CSA From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2011 5:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Reflection for the annual memorial Mass for Sr. Ignatia Gavin, CSA St. Patrick's Church, Cleveland, OH, April 2, 2011 4th Sunday of Lent Darkness and Light, Blindness and Sight, - these images accompany all of us on our journey of life and are the themes of the readings for this 4th Sunday of Lent. So, too, are they part of the life of Sr. Ignatia Gavin, who, as a child of 7, on this very day in 1896, one hundred and fifteen years ago, left Ireland with her parents and brother and journeyed to America. Certainly for this audience, the life and influence of Sr. Ignatia are well known not only as you've made your own journeys through darkness to light, from blindness to sight in the AA fellowship but because you have honored her life by this annual Mass since her death in 1966. So, I'd like to reflect a bit about her spirituality in the light of today's readings. The three readings and the psalm beautifully illuminate aspects of Ignatia's deep faith and trust in the providence of her God and of the spiritual motivation for her life of service. "Not as humans see does God see - because humans only see appearances, but the Lord looks into the heart" say God to Samuel in the first reading. Ignatia was always a frail, tiny person, who struggled with some kind of a breakdown in her early years in religious life and was aware of her personal weaknesses. She, herself, said "had someone told me at the crossroads of life that I'd spend my days caring for alcoholics, I'd have wilted, but God, in His Divine Providence works in mysterious ways. He can use very weak and apparently inefficient instruments to accomplish his purposes." But Ignatia, believing that about herself, used that self-knowledge, and looked into the heart of the alcoholics she felt privileged to know and help. She was compassionate and concerned for all, generous in her help and support of the AAs and their families, tough when she was dealing with the recalcitrant patient at St. Thomas Hospital or Rosary Hall, persuasive and single-minded when she was trying to get money from hospital administration or AAs for what she knew was needed for the program, yet humble and unassuming when she was praised. And if there are any old timers here who receiving a copy of "The Following of Christ" from her, you know she always wrote, "pray for me." on the inside cover. The Psalmist says "Even though I walk in the dark valley, I fear no evil; for You are at my side with your rod and staff that give me courage." Ignatia's journey was one of strong belief that God would accompany her and give courage in whatever she was asked to do. Had Ignatia not worn herself down in multiple demands of music teaching, she would never have found herself at St. Thomas Hospital with a easier desk job in the admitting office, where one day Dr. Bob came and asked for a bed for an alcoholic, admitted under the diagnosis of "acute gastritis." As she later said of what became the historic event, "it was really very simple, there was someone with a need and I was able to find a bed." "You were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord- Live as children of light for light produces every kind of goodness and righteous and truth." says St. Paul to the Ephesians. Sr. Ignatia kept up a voluminous correspondence with many of the men and women who went through the program. Her oft-repeated advice was simple, sincere and reflected what she herself lived and what she had learned from the AAs over time. For example, in a letter she wrote in 1954, to one of our sisters, she said "Live just for today. Yesterday has gone into Eternity, trust it to God's infinite mercy. Leave tomorrow in the care of God's loving Providence as I'm sure Mother Mary did and in parenthesis she wrote "this is AA philosophy." But the wording was almost identical whether she wrote to an AA priest or to his religious superior, to a corporate leader leaving Rosary Hall , to a young man, ordered for treatment after a car accident or a woman going back to her family. The Gospel recounts the moving story of the man born blind, who was given the gift of sight by Jesus. Amid all the wrangling about whether the man was really blind from birth, whether his physical ailment was indicative of his sin, whether Jesus was a sinner, the man was single-minded in recounting his experience - "I was blind, but now I see," and this man healed me. Today's Gospel shows Jesus challenging and changing the beliefs of His times which thought that any physical disability was a direct result of sin. Not so different from what Bill W., Dr. Bob and Ignatia and all those who followed them understood - that alcoholism is a disease . In the 10th anniversary of Rosary Hall in 1962, Ignatia spoke again about trying to live the principle of AA herself- "Living One Day at a Time," trusting to God's mercy and providence., especially as she said "when I get as most of the patients, people who are far away from God. They are fearful to think about Him. They feel He is too demanding, but how wonderfully kind He is when they turn to Him. That is really, as I should say, the payoff in this work- to see when they get that peace of soul, if they open up their mind and heart and throw off the garbage, as we call it, and let God's grace penetrate. Their lives are so different they can all tell you that." Her deep spirituality enabled Ignatia to help people see the beauty of God in their lives after many years of darkness. Though people have made Ignatia larger than life, as an AA friend in Ignatia's own County Mayo, Ireland said to me, " she carried a simple but powerful message to all of us, she gave us hope when we didn't have any and that hope and her humility touches us to this day." Ignatia, who now enjoys the eternal light, would say to you, as she often concluded her talks, "God bless everyone of you, my own alcoholics, whom I've had the privilege and pleasure of working with and their immediate relatives." Sr. Mary Denis Maher, CSA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7296. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Name of book/author on 3 p''s: prestige, power and pocketbook From: calistogababe . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/27/2011 12:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Suzanne T. The following information seemed to be relevant to answering my question about the 3 p's. There was a book called This Believing World by Lewis Browne, which I heard about on a history of AA share by Jim Burwell: jim-b-bbhistory1957.mp3 at xa.speakers.org http://www.aabibliography.com/believingworldbrown.html Jim Burwell writes in his early 1940s history of alcoholics anonymous: It is my opinion that a great deal of Bill's traditions came from the fourth book, Lewis Browne's This Believing World. From this book, I believe Bill attained a remarkable perception of possible future pitfalls for groups of our kind for it clearly shows that the major failures of religions and cults in the past have been due to one of three things: Too much organization, too much politics, and too much money or power. Charles Knapp Writes: Oh yes Bill knew of this book all right. He read almost everything on the subject of spiritual experiences. This Believing World by Lewis Browne, and The God Who Speaks by B.H. Streeter are just 2 other books on the subject he read. I can't find the website, but both of Browne's books were listed in Bill W.'s library and Dick B. lists This Believing World to be part of Dr. Bob and Anne's library and a book they loaned out. http://www.religion-online.org/showchapter.asp?title=3092&C=2623 http://www.barefootsworld.net/aapeople.html ________________________________________ From Suzanne T. But then I found out about Victor Kitchen's Oxford Group book "I Was a Pagan" along with the link to the article called "The Names of God: How to find a God of our understanding" at http://hindsfoot.org/namegod.html ________________________________________ In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, dillonr9@... wrote: > > Victor Kitchen, in his book, I WAS A PAGAN (1934) cites 5 P's he was a pagan to: power, possession, position, pleasure and Applause. Perhaps this book was in Bill's mind. He may have read this book while a member of the Oxford Group since its author was also a member of the Oxford Group. Peace. - - - - > From GC the moderator: > > Vic Kitchen and Bill Wilson both joined the Oxford Group in New York City at about the same time, and were friends. Kitchen gives an excellent picture of what the Oxford Group looked like (and how it functioned and what it taught) in the New York City area at the time Bill Wilson was active in the group. > > For the text of I Was a Pagan, see www.stepstudy.org and for a description of what the book taught, see http://hindsfoot.org/kchange1.html > > The Five P's passage is at the beginning of Chapter 1. I quote the opening of that chapter here: > > CHAPTER I > THIS BUSINESS OF CHASING FALSE GODS > PAGANISM > > At twenty, life looked like a high adventure -- intriguing and indecorous. At thirty, it looked like a high endeavor -- socially and economically important. By forty, however, I grew highly dubious. Life seemed to have lost flavor on both counts. It was then that I met the Oxford Group. At this time, I think, I would have described myself as "white, married and a Christian." Actually I was somewhat tarnished and discolored, married in name only, and very much of a pagan. A pagan is a man who spends his time chasing false gods. And I had spent forty years of my time in chasing "Pleasure," Possessions," "Power," "Position" and "Applause." I now call these pagan goals my unfortunate five "P's." Thanks all, In the Fellowship of the Spirit, Suzanne ________________________________________ Original Message from: "calistogababe" > Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 Subject: Name of book/author on 3 p's: prestige, power and pocketbook There is a book, I have heard, that Bill W. read and used when he was writing the traditions. It was a comparative religion study that identified the 3 principles that were crucial for a successful spiritual fellowship. So the 3 p's to be careful of are: prestige, power and pocketbook. Does anyone know the name of that book or the author? Many thanks, Suzanne T. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7297. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The modern definition of alcoholism used in AAWS literature From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2011 12:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Wikipedia: "The existence of alcoholism as a disease is accepted by some within the medical and scientific communities although critics exist..." That phrase "although critics exist" - implying public controversy - plunges AA into Tradition Ten territory. One such critic, Jeffrey Schaler (psychologist and consultant in addiction and social policy at Silver Spring, Maryland), in his book "Addiction is a choice" (Open Court, 2000), wrote, "Biomedical and psychosocial scientists range across both sides of the (disease) controversy (Filmore and Sigvardsson 1988) ... My impression is that the disease model is steadily losing ground..." John Crossan discusses the difference between illness and disease in "Jesus: a revolutionary biography" (Harper Collins 1995). He wrote: "Medical anthropology or comparative ethnomedicine has proposed a basic distinction between curing a disease and healing an illness." He quotes Leon Eisenberg: "Patients suffer illnesses; physicians treat diseases. Illnesses are experiences of disvalued changes in states of being and in social functions; diseases in the scientific paradigm of modern medicine are abnormalities in the structure and function of bodily organs and systems... Our success in dealing with certain disease problems breeds then ideological error that a technical fix is the potential solution to all ... It is essential to enquire how we can expand our horizons to incorporate an understanding of illness as a psychological event. Indeed, our worship of restricted and incomplete disease models can be viewed as a kind of ritual or magical practice in itself." Crossan also refers to Arthur Kleinman: "The key axiom in medical anthropology is a dichotomy between two aspects of sickness: disease and illness. Disease refers to a a malfunctioning of biological and/or psychological processes, while the term illness refers to a psychosocial experience and meaning of perceived disease." Crossan adds: "A disease is, to put it bluntly, between me and my doctor, and a bug ... Disease sees a problem unrealistically, on a minimal level; illness realistically on a wider level ... A cure for a disease is absolutely desirable, but in its absence we can still heal the illness by refusing to ostracise those who have it, by empathising with their anguish and by enveloping their sufferings with both our respect and love..." (Emphasis added). I believe AA was wise to describe alcoholism as an illness in the Big Book, ("An illness of this sort - and we have come to believe it an illness ..." - chapter two, There is a solution) rather than using the more limiting word disease. In in his March 1958 Grapevine article "On the alcoholism front" Bill W. wrote, "The American Medical Association has officially declared alcoholism to be a chronic illness ... The World Health organisation is carrying (all this) good news around the world ..." However, "Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religious organisation. Neither does it AA take any particular medical point of view, though we cooperate widely with the men (sic) of medicine as well as with the men of religion..." (Foreword, Alcoholics Anonymous, second edition - emphasis added). In a letter to me dated 18 October 2000 Bill A., of GSO, New York, wrote: "Our role as a society of recovered alcoholics helping others does not endow us with any medical or scientific stature. Therefore the issue of a medical determination of a disease is something on which AA could have no position. Our Traditions are clear in reminding us not to be diverted from our primary purpose as a Fellowship, and as members of that Fellowship we should respect the limitations we have. Doctor Silkworth's view of alcoholism is still contained in the basic text Alcoholics Anonymous, though as a separate and distinct Foreword. It may lack a certain medical credence these days, though the ideas still resonate with many AA's and newcomers." Seems to me that by carrying the definition of alcoholism quoted by Dennis M., the pamphlet "AA as a resource for the healthcare professional" comes perilously adjacent to endorsing the American Society of Addiction Medicine and the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence, thus setting AA on a collision course with Traditions Six and Ten. Laurie A. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7298. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Name of book/author on 3 p''s: prestige, power and pocketbook From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/8/2011 8:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Suzanne, I too thought of the Lewis Browne book when I read your post. I have a copy, so I did a quick scan of the relevant sections and didn't find anything similar to the "3 P's." Probably the Victor Kitchen book was the closest source, but expressions of that sort appeared in other places as well. I think the common source may have been the James Winan book, Public Speaking, which was popular in the early-to-mid 20th century. Winan's list of internal motivators (hooks for speakers to keep the audience listening) was similar to Kitchen's list of his own pre-conversion motivators. They were sometimes boiled down to "property, prestige, power" although the original list was longer. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7299. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/30/2011 4:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From John Wikelius, Les Cole, and Patrick Murphy - - - - From: john wikelius (justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com) It is written in my Big Book Page 30, "We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control our drinking. - - - - From: LES COLE (elsietwo at msn.com) Hi All: Back in 1994 when I started doing research about AA, I gradually defined a simple definition as to the difference between "a drunk" and "an alcoholic" for my own thinking. This does not have a source for others to look up. It is only reasoned as a pragmatist...such as Bill was. A "drunk" is a person who perpetually uses alcohol (in some form) to a debilitating degree, and doesn't choose (can't) to do anything about it. An "alcoholic" is a similar person who has the same type of difficulties with alcohol, but takes action to change the addiction, behaviorally. Thus, the use of the word "recovering". Les C Colorado Springs, Colorado - - - - From: Patrick Murphy (paddymur at yahoo.com) All this hoopla about AA's success rate ... from what I've observed over the years (43) is that AA has 100% success. Every single person I've encountered who has 'worked the Steps' has stayed sober. Every one who has ever entered our AA doors and 'did as suggested' has stayed sober. Ah yes, we have a large number of people who say 'I ain't doin' that' and 'I want the easier softer way' and they get eliminated. So, shouldn't they try to figure out why there's such a large group that won't surrender and quit saying AA has a low success rate? --Pat Murphy IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7300. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Denmark: AA groups and clubs paying rent From: joe . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/1/2011 11:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Brent, I served as a delegate to the General Service Conference of AA in UK. I chaired a committee who had the challenge of considering a long standing law of the land, a tax law specifically. In the UK, if a tax payer chooses to make a contribution to a registered charity, the government matches the contribution so long as the tax payer files the proper forms to allow the government to do so. In the UK, their GSO is such a registered charity, just as in the USA it is considered a tax-exempt, nonprofit corporation or association under section 501c of the IRS code. Therefore, we had the task of considering whether that was within the spirit of the AA Traditions and recommend back to the General Service Conference body. It was one of the toughest questions I have experienced. I had to lead an unbiased discussion, but had strong opinions of my own. At the end, the conference body accepted that the law of the land should be followed and individuals were free to donate in this manner if they wished or to simply choose to donate without completing the proper forms to alert the government of the donation. There are several other experiences closer to Denmark that could be sought from local autonomous AA service bodies. The European Service Meeting provides a venue for GSO's in your area to get together and share ideas also. Good luck and God bless. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7301. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA groups paying rent in Great Britain From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2011 6:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The relevant paragraph (five) in the Act reads: "(1) If and to the extent that the Company (GSB AA GB) disclaims the property comprised in a relevant disposition then (unless a contrary intention is expressed in the will, deed or other document) such disposition shall take effect - (a) (so long as the Council [the Alcohol Education and Research Council established by the 1981 Act] is in existence and is administering the Fund [the Alcohol Education and Research Fund] as a gift to the Council to form part of the Fund; or (b) (if the Council shall be dissolved or shall have ceased to administer the Fund) as a gift to a charity appointed under subsection (2) below, (2) If the Council shall be dissolved or shall cease to administer the Fund the Company (AA) may within six months of the dissolution or the cessation, as the case may be, appoint for the purpose of subsection (1) (b) above, with the approval of the Charity Commissioners, a charity having purposes similar to those of the Fund. (3) For the purposes of this section a relevant disposition shall not be taken as expressing a contrary intention by reason only that it does not (or may not) evince a general charitable intention. 6. This Act extends to Scotland. (From the Alcohol Education and Research Council [AERC] website): "The council's main aims are to: generate and disseminate research-based evidence to inform and influence policy and practice; develop the capacity of people and organisations to address alcohol issues." This is what Bill W wrote, in part, in an article headed "On the alcoholism front" in the March 1958 issue of "Grapevine": "We believe that sound alcohol education is a good thing ... We are glad of any kind of education that accurately informs the public and changes its age-old attitude toward the drunk ... Now who is going to do all this education? Obviously, it is both a community job and a job for specialists. Individually, we AA's can help, but AA as such cannot, and should not, get directly into this field. Therefore, we must rely on other agencies ..." I take it AA was consulted while the Parliamentary Bill and Act were being drafted, and it seems to me the chances are vanishingly small that AA would be harmed by any subsequent association with the AERC; but let's cross that bridge if and when we come to it! ____________________________________________ From: chief_roger@yahoo.com Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 Subject: Re: AA groups paying rent in Great Britain With respect to message #7270 from Laurie Andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7270 LAURIE SAID: In 1986 AA in Great Britain was forced to ask the UK Parliament to pass an Act allowing the Fellowship to decline outside contributions. I've seen a copy of the Act on the wall in the archives department at GSO, New York. Copies are available from the British General Service Office at York (see AA Great Britain website for contact details). The July 2007 issue of "Share" magazine (the Great Britain equivalent of "Grapevine") carried this report .... I have seen the text of this Act posted on the wall of the Great Britain GSO Archives display in York, England. It is a powerful spiritual example of going any lengths to adhere to our traditions. However, the solicitors (lawyers) on both sides had a hand in it. The law passed, in practice, could result in money donated to AA Grat Britain not actually be returned to the family of the donor, but instead be sent to another registered charity that does alcohol research (of a sort that AA may or may not agree with -- research that we certainly do not endorse or oppose in any way). I am looking through my files to see if I can find a copy of how it is written, but the large ornamental one that I saw was framed on the wall. Roger W. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7302. . . . . . . . . . . . Anne Smith''s prayer From: dani n . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/30/2011 6:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was listening to a speaker tape last night (Chris S. and Dave F.'s "big book adventure") and they referred to a handout that of course I don't have, with a list of prayers. The last one mentioned was a little-known prayer that they said Anne wrote for Dr. Bob that they would say together each morning - from one AA history book or another. Does anyone know what this is? A thorough Googling didn't help me at all! - Dani IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7303. . . . . . . . . . . . Anne Smith''s prayer? Or Lois and Bill Wilson''s prayer? From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/8/2011 3:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dani, Did the speakers say it was a prayer written by Anne Smith, and that she and Dr. Bob recited it each morning? That doesn't sound quite right to me. In the mornings at the Smith house, Anne would read that day's meditation from The Upper Room, reading it aloud for her family and for all the alcoholics in the Akron group who had dropped by her house for coffee before going to work. There is a collection of some typical daily readings from The Upper Room at http://hindsfoot.org/uprm1.html also see their website at http://www.upperroom.org/ BILL AND LOIS WILSON'S PRAYER What you are describing seems to be the prayer which Bill and Lois Wilson recited together every morning. You can read it in Pass It On, on page 265, or you can read it on the internet by going to http://hindsfoot.org/spiritu.html on AA spirituality, and going two thirds of the way down to the selection marked "Prayers and readings for an A.A. funeral or memorial service." Clicking on that will take you to: http://hindsfoot.org/funeral1.html About one third of the way down, you will find: =================================== Bill & Lois's Prayer (from Pass It On, page 265) Oh Lord, we thank Thee that Thou art, that we are from everlasting to everlasting. Blessed be Thy holy name and all Thy benefactions to us of light, of love, and of service. May we find and do Thy will in good strength, in good cheer today. May Thy ever-present grace be discovered by family and friends -- those here and those beyond -- by our Societies throughout the world, by men and women everywhere, and among those who must lead in these troubled times. Oh Lord, we know Thee to be all wonder, all beauty, all glory, all power, all love. Indeed, Thou art everlasting love. Accordingly, Thou has fashioned for us a destiny passing through Thy many mansions, ever in more discovery of Thee and in no separation between ourselves. =================================== Original message from: dani n (claritystone@gmail.com) Subject: Anne Smith's prayer I was listening to a speaker tape last night (Chris S. and Dave F.'s "big book adventure") and they referred to a handout that of course I don't have, with a list of prayers. The last one mentioned was a little-known prayer that they said Anne wrote for Dr. Bob that they would say together each morning - from one AA history book or another. Does anyone know what this is? A thorough Googling didn't help me at all! - Dani IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7304. . . . . . . . . . . . 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition From: Mike Portz . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2011 2:25:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My copyright 1938 (I believe the year quite a bit of the Big Book was written) edition of the "New Peerless Webster Home School and Office Dictionary" on page 28, defines alcoholism as "a diseased condition produced by alcohol." I believe this is the condition I was in when I arrived at A.A. It doesn't matter to my recovery what someone with a degree in anything, who is not a alcoholic nor addict, defines alcoholism. The doctors of all specialties were never able to find any solution to putting this disease into remission. It seems from reading about the history of alcoholism, that few really cared. How could they if they hadn't lived it? Thank God for Dr. Silkworth! Although he was not afflicted, he spent most of his life living with we who suffer. He truly cared. With regards to the statement ".... My impression is that the disease model is steadily losing ground ..." I think it is not really important what opinion a man -- a man of what I consider limited experience, no first hand personal experience of its tortures, and a highly speculative impression -- has of what the medical world considers alcoholism. It might be important to note that the word disease, as defined in the same above-mentioned dictionary, is defined as, " any mental, moral or physical disorder; malady: illness." This certainly describes exactly whatever disorder, malady or illness I am afflicted with. I hope it works for you and any other members of AAHISTORY.COM. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7305. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition From: Byron Bateman . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2011 6:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My 1937 New Popular Pocket Webster Dictionary Self-pronouncing has exactly the same definitions. Byron - - - - Original message #7304 from Mike Portz (mportz2000 at yahoo.com) My copyright 1938 (I believe the year quite a bit of the Big Book was written) edition of the "New Peerless Webster Home School and Office Dictionary" on page 28, defines alcoholism as "a diseased condition produced by alcohol." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7306. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2011 2:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Why would the authors of the most definitive book EVER written on alcoholism REPEATEDLY refer to the condition we suffer from as an "illness" if they meant "disease?" In many areas of our book, we see the authors repeatedly use synonyms and similar phrases to make the same point over and over. However, when the authors use this same device regarding the alcoholic illness, they do NOT use disease and prefer a term like malady. I believe that the fact disease is conspicuous by its absence in similar circumstances confirms that the authors were specifically avoiding that term and for good reason. In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst _________________________________________ Original message from: Mike Portz Subject: 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition My copyright 1938 (I believe the year quite a bit of the Big Book was written) edition of the "New Peerless Webster Home School and Office Dictionary" on page 28, defines alcoholism as "a diseased condition produced by alcohol." It might be important to note that the word disease, as defined in the same above-mentioned dictionary, is defined as, "any mental, moral or physical disorder; malady: illness." This certainly describes exactly whatever disorder, malady or illness I am afflicted with. I believe this is the condition I was in when I arrived at A.A. It doesn't matter to my recovery what someone with a degree in anything, who is not a alcoholic nor addict, defines alcoholism. The doctors of all specialties were never able to find any solution to putting this disease into remission. It seems from reading about the history of alcoholism, that few really cared. How could they if they hadn't lived it? Thank God for Dr. Silkworth! Although he was not afflicted, he spent most of his life living with we who suffer. He truly cared. With regards to the statement ".... My impression is that the disease model is steadily losing ground ..." I think it is not really important what opinion a man -- a man of what I consider limited experience, no first hand personal experience of its tortures, and a highly speculative impression -- has of what the medical world considers alcoholism. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7307. . . . . . . . . . . . Grapevine Play in Los Angeles From: jaxena77 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2011 4:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To Our Friends and Supporters in the AAHistoryLovers Yahoo Group, We are very excited to announce that on Saturday, June 25, 2011, In Our Own Words: Pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous will be performed in Los Angeles County for the very first time. We are especially honored for this opportunity to tell Sybil Corwin's story in her hometown, alongside the stories of Mort Joseph, Cliff Walker, Frank Randall, June G and the many pioneering members of AA in Southern California. The AAHistoryLovers Yahoo Group was vital in the researching and writing of this documentary style play. Our shows in Northern California and Texas have sold out to standing room only audiences for the past two years. Please SAVE THE DATE and spread the word to anyone you know in Southern California. We need your help to PASS IT ON! Forward this message to a friend - http://oi.vresp.com/f2af/v4/send_to_friend.html?ch=0076d7232a&lid=TEST&ldh=T EST In Love and Service, Jackie B. =============================================== FULL COLOR FLYER WITH PHOTOS: http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/771229/0076d7232a/TEST/TEST/ =============================================== IN OUR OWN WORDS: PIONEERS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS Performing for the first time in Los Angeles County! A SPECIAL BENEFIT FOR ICYPAA 2011! Saturday, June 25 at 8 pm The Lincoln Middle School Theater 1501 California Ave, Santa Monica, CA Played to standing room only audiences in San Antonio in 2010, In Our Own Words brings to life the pages of the Big Book, The Grapevine and the recordings of the pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous. Simply, and with great humor and depth, the play retells the stories of our founders in New York, Akron, Cleveland and Los Angeles. Going further into our history, In Our Own Words also shares the lesser-known struggles of the pioneering members of special composition groups in the fellowship, including the first women and young people in AA, as well as early gay, lesbian, African-American and Latino members. Join men and women like Marty Mann, Sybil Corwin, Cliff Walker, Barry Leach, Joe McQuanny, and many more, on their search for a solution and acceptance in the rooms. Their stories, and this play, are not to be missed. Tickets available soon at www.icypaahost.org IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7308. . . . . . . . . . . . Disease concept: Jellinek, Ernest Kurtz, William L. White From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2011 10:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If I might suggest that some of the the best information I've read regarding the "Disease Concept" -- yes that is what it is, a "concept" (and btw still not universally accepted and still evolving) can better be understood by reading the following references which provide some of the history of this debate. AA "as such" never pushed the "disease" theory although the fellowship certainly framed its belief as such and taught it to all newcomers, instead it was Marty Mann and the NCEA along with the RCPA and Yale's Center for Alcohol Studies that really brought the concept to its acceptance in society that it enjoys today. ======================================== JELLINEK: The Disease Concept of Alcoholism – Jellinek; 1960 ======================================== ERNEST KURTZ: Alcoholics Anonymous and the Disease Concept of Alcoholism Ernest Kurtz, Ph.D.(google it) ======================================== WILLIAM L. WHITE: A four-part series on the history and future of the addiction disease concept. White, W. (2000) 1. Addiction as a Disease: Birth of a Concept. Counselor, 1(1):46-51, 73. 2. The Rebirth of the Disease Concept of Alcoholism in the 20th Century.1(2):62-66. 3. Addiction Disease Concept: Advocates and Critics; White Counselor, February 2001 4. A Disease Concept for the 21st Century, White Counselor, April 2001 ======================================== IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7309. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2011 6:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Jon Markle, Glenn Chesnut, James Bliss, and Jeanne Fisera (Jifgift) - - - - From: Jon Markle (jon.markle at mac.com) The authors of the "first 164 pages" DID use the word "disease." See page 64. In addition, in my copy of the 3rd ed on page 187, there is a significant quote in this story which makes it clear the original founders used that word. There are other instances in the Big Book stories, but this is one of the more significant ones, I think. There is no doubt in my mind that the descriptions used in the Big Book, and the words used, clearly indicate the authors believed in the "disease" model. A disease that impacts the whole, entire body, consuming and insidiously infecting every part. It is why I believe that any approach to recovery ALSO must address every aspect of the person, not just the act of stopping drinking. Jon Markle, BA Sacred Studies/MA Agency Counseling Retired Therapist & SA Counseling Specialty: Dual Diagnosis/SPMI/COD & DBT-S HS Practitioner, Advisor & Case Consultation Raleigh, NC - - - - (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) =========================== THE TERMS ACTUALLY USED IN THE BIG BOOK =========================== Disease is in fact used only four times, but four significant times: (page 64) As part of the explanation of how to do a Fourth Step: "Resentment is the 'number one' offender. It destroys more alcoholics than anything else. From it stem all forms of spiritual DISEASE, for we have been not only mentally and physically ILL, we have been spiritually SICK. When the spiritual MALADY is overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically." (Emphasis added by me.) >> Reading this passage from page 64, it looks >> to me like all four of these words were being >> regarded in 1939 as synonyms by Bill Wilson >> and the early AA members. (pages 187-188) Bill W. and Dr. Bob talking to Bill Dotson, A.A. No. 3: "You are an ALCOHOLIC .... you have a DISEASE, and it doesn't make any difference how long you do without it, after a drink or two you'll end up just like you are now." (Emphasis added by me.) (page 191) Bill Wilson himself talking to Bill Dotson's wife Henrietta: "Henrietta, the Lord has been so wonderful to me, curing me of this terrible disease, that I just want to keep talking about it and telling people." (page 191) Bill Dotson continues: "That sentence, 'The Lord has been so wonderful to me, curing me of this terrible disease, that I just want to keep telling people about it,' has been a sort of GOLDEN TEXT for the A.A. program and for me." (Emphasis added by me.) =========================== Sick, sick person, or sickness 19 times -- pages 18, 64, 67, 90, 92, 100, 101, 106, 107, 108, 115, 139, 140, 141, 147, 149, 153, 157, and 164. =========================== Ill or illness 14 times -- pages 7, 18, 20, 30, 44, 92, 107, 108, 115, 118, 122, 139, 140, and 142. =========================== The words ail or ailment are used 3 times -- pages 135, 139, 140. =========================== Malady appears 6 times -- pages 23, 64, 92, 138, 139, and 165. =========================== - - - - From: James Bliss (james.bliss at comcast.net) Well, to throw an additional dictionary into the discussion, and to include the definitions of disease, illness and malady: The Winston Simplified Dictionary Intermediate Edition, 1928 alcoholism n. a diseased condition produced by the use of fermented or distilled liquors. disease n. disorder of mind or body; malady; illness; Disease is the general term for any departure from a state of health; it frequently suggests a more serious or long-continued state than either sickness or illness. Illness and sickness mean practically the same thing; but sickness sometimes has the additional meaning of nausea or vomiting. illness n. 1. the condition of being sick; 2, a disease; sickness malady n. a disease, exp. one deep-seated or lingering, mental or physical Jim - - - - From: Jifgift@aol.com (Jifgift at aol.com) The 1934 Webster Collegiate Dictionary says Alcoholism is a "diseased condition of the system due to excessive use of alcoholic liquors". Faith alone is insufficient. To be vital, faith must be accompanied by self-sacrifice and unselfish, constructive action. BB p.63 jeanne fisera IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7310. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition From: Tom . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2011 3:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From tomvlll and Tom Hickcox -- responding to the message posted by Chuck Parkhurst - - - - From "Tom" (tomvlll at yahoo.com) There exists no universally agreed upon, objective definition of the word disease, thus it is open to the interpretation of anyone who chooses to define it. The AMA, Webster's, the WHO etc. I agree with Chuck's take that the absence of that term in the BB was not in any way incidental. Subsequent statements by Wilson corroborate that. - - - - From: Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) I would invoke Rule 62 at this juncture: > Message #7306 from "Chuck Parkhurst" > (ineedpage63@cox.net) says > > Why would the authors of the most definitive > book EVER written on alcoholism REPEATEDLY > refer to the condition we suffer from as an > "illness" if they meant "disease?" In many > areas of our book, we see the authors > repeatedly use synonyms and similar phrases > to make the same point over and over. > However, when the authors use this same > device regarding the alcoholic illness, > they do NOT use disease and prefer a term > like malady. I believe that the fact disease > is conspicuous by its absence in similar > circumstances confirms that the authors > were specifically avoiding that term and > for good reason. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7311. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition From: bsdds@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2011 3:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Bob Schultz "bsdds" and LaurenceHolbrook "hdmozart" - - - - From: bsdds@comcast.net (bsdds at comcast.net) Many years ago, I was listening to a public service program concerning epilepsy. One of the first thing the moderator commented on was the "disease" of epilepsy. He went into a short but direct point of saying epilepsy was a "condition" not a disease and told why. It made a lot of sense to me at the time and still does. Again ... I got and what ever it is .... I don't take the first drink because, in the past drinking put me in a condition of behaving badly ... over and over and over and ...................... Bob Schultz Charlottesville, Virginia - - - - From: "hdmozart" (email at LaurenceHolbrook.com) I thought Bill W directly addressed this issue in the National Catholic Council on Alcoholism and Related Drug Problems, Inc, "The Blue Book", Vol. XII, 1960, New York, New York A Synopsis of the Question-Answer Period FOLLOWING BILL W.'S TALK AT THE NCCA SYMPOSIUM IN NEW YORK IN 1960 Father X.: Bill, I noticed that in your talk you did not use the word `disease.' Did you intend to make any kind of distinction between disease and sickness? Bill W: We AAs have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically speaking, it is not a disease entity. For example, there is no such thing as heart disease. Instead there are many separate heart ailments or combinations of them. It is something like that with alcoholism. Therefore, we did not wish to get in wrong with the medical profession by pronouncing alcoholism a disease entity. Hence, we have always called it an illness or a malady — a far safer term for us to use. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7312. . . . . . . . . . . . Proxy or absentee votes at Group conscience meetings From: pamelafro88 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/15/2011 4:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A service sponsee asked me whether there is any literature relating to proxy or absentee voting at a group conscience meeting. While I have never encountered this, I said I would ask whether there is any precedence or service material relating to this. My thoughts are that unless a person is in attendance they cannot be fully informed and therefore shouldn't cast a vote - and for other service positions, an alternate covers for unavaiodable absences. Any ideas? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7313. . . . . . . . . . . . Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics #2 From: intuited . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2011 6:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn, thanks for your thoughts on atheism and agnosticism. After rereading your book on "The Higher Power of the 12 Step Program" http://hindsfoot.org/kHP1.html and other literature, I have become acutely aware of the many definitions of agnostics and atheists. Throughout the ages agnostics seem to have been those who balked at the current religious thought. Quakers were even called agnostics. I have decided these terms are not definable, especially in light of their historical use. What seems to me to be more accurate is the use of the term gnostic -- direct knowing of the sacred. This seems much more in keeping with AA spirituality, whether utilizing the words "spirit in the rooms" on through to 11th step conscious contact. Jung was intrigued with gnostics as well. On Mar 16, 2011, at 2:33 PM, Glenn Chesnut wrote: In a preceding message, Amelia wrote: "I recently reviewed the April 2009 issue of the AAGrapevine which featured Agnostics in AA. Each story spoke of a definite spiritual experience. As I read the stories I began to think that the term agnostic was more aptly being used as a code word to mean non-Christian. The stories were full of references to a very vital spirituality, utilizing many eastern religious beliefs interconnected with meditation or energy. They were very moving stories and not what I would expect of someone who was without certainty. The Conference Committee on Literature is in the process of publishing a pamphlet 'which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous.' This 61st Conference is entertaining a request to reconsider this action. I am very curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these terms. Is it an easy way to talk about 'other than Christian' spirituality?" The Greek prefix a- means no, not, un- >>The term "theist" refers to someone who believes that God (Theos) exists. >>The term "a-theist" therefore refers to someone who believes that there is no God, that God (Theos) does not exist. >>Ginosko in ancient Greek meant "I know," so an "a-gnostic" is (literally) someone caught in a state of "un-knowing." - - - - THE RISE OF WESTERN ATHEISM IN THE 1840'S In a book I just wrote, I talk on pp. 123-124 about the Rise of Modern Atheism in the 1840's. See Glenn F. Chesnut, God and Spirituality paperback: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-k eywo\ rds=chesnut+god+and+spirituality&x=13&y=15 [9] kindle: http://www.amazon.com/God-Spirituality-Philosophical-Essays-ebook/dp/B0046ZR N82/\ ref=sr_1_cc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300217940&sr=1-1-catcorr [10] TRADITIONAL THEISTS: Some people in the western world rejected these new atheistic ideas completely, and kept on trying to defend the old conceptualities of the ancient and medieval worlds: the Bible was literally true, the church authorities were infallible, people walked on water and rose from the dead, and so on. THE NEW ATHEISTS (1840 and afterwards): Other people in the western world embraced these new atheistic ideas enthusiastically. A new world of science -- where the scientists were rapidly gaining infallible truth and explaining all things -- was going to lead the human race out of the darkness of the past. There would no longer be any uncontrollable natural phenomena killing people (like earthquakes and tsunamis?), everyone in the world would be given excellent health care (through universal health care) so that no one would ever get sick and die any longer, our machines (oil drilling rigs and nuclear power plants) would never malfunction and kill people, and so on. "AGNOSTICS": But there were many people caught in the middle: they had been brought up with traditional religious beliefs and did not want to let go of them, and yet they had no real answers to all the attacks that the atheists were making on their most cherished articles of faith. And there were others who had tired of the whole debate, and insisted that they weren't going to believe anything at all, past this point, without some kind of scientific evidence to support it. - - - - THE WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE ON AGNOSTICISM See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism Thomas Henry Huxley gave a speech at a meeting of the Metaphysical Society in 1876, in which he coined to word "agnostic" (not-knowing, un-knowing, non-knowing) to describe his philosophy, which was a rejection of ALL claims of spiritual or mystical knowledge. "Huxley identified agnosticism not as a creed but rather as a method of skeptical, evidence-based inquiry." But in the many years that followed, the word "agnostic" got adapted to describe all sorts of different approaches to religion. The Wikipedia article describes some of these varieties: =========================================== *Agnostic atheism: Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not have belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know that a deity does not exist. *Agnostic theism: The view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence. *Apathetic or Pragmatic agnosticism: The view that there is no proof of either the existence or nonexistence of any deity, but since any deity that may exist appears unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the question is largely academic. *Ignosticism: The view that a coherent definition of a deity must be put forward before the question of the existence of a deity can be meaningfully discussed. If the chosen definition is not coherent, the ignostic holds the noncognitivist view that the existence of a deity is meaningless or empirically untestable. A.J. Ayer, Theodore Drange, and other philosophers see both atheism and agnosticism as incompatible with ignosticism on the grounds that atheism and agnosticism accept "a deity exists" as a meaningful proposition which can be argued for or against. An ignostic cannot even say whether he/she is a theist or a nontheist until a sufficient definition of theism is put forth. *Strong agnosticism (also called "hard," "closed," "strict," or "permanent agnosticism"): The view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of a deity or deities and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another subjective experience. A strong agnostic would say, "I cannot know whether a deity exists or not, and neither can you." *Weak agnosticism (also called "soft," "open," "empirical," or "temporal agnosticism"): The view that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable, therefore one will withhold judgment until/if any evidence is available. A weak agnostic would say, "I don't know whether any deities exist or not, but maybe one day when there is evidence we can find something out." =========================================== As far as I can tell, there are very few AA members who genuinely understand what the term "agnostic" originally meant, that is, what the word meant between 1876 and 1939. Maybe a handful, but not many. And as far as I can see, the term "agnostic" has now come to mean so many different things, that it hardly has any real meaning left at all. So Amelia, I think that you are probably correct when you say that, at New York AA headquarters, the term AGNOSTIC is "being used as a code word to mean non-Christian," that is, as a "way to talk about 'other than Christian' spirituality." But for myself, I think that using the word "agnostic" in this way is a misuse of terms, because the chapter in the Big Book called "We Agnostics" was an attempt to deal with the skeptical position which Thomas Henry Huxley put forward in 1876. If we want a pamphlet talking about Hindu, Buddhist, New Age, Native American spirituality, worship of the Triple Goddess, wicca, modern California gnostic and kabbalistic groups, and other things of that sort, that they should have titled it something different, like perhaps "Varieties of AA Spirituality." And I also think that some of the hostility toward the pamphlet (among a lot of AA members) might lessen to a degree if it were retitled in that fashion. But that's just my two cents worth. __________________________________________ Original message from Amelia (intuited at earthlink.net) Glenn .... I recently reviewed the April 2009 issue of the AAGrapevine which featured Agnostics in AA. Each story spoke of a definite spiritual experience. As I read the stories I began to think that the term agnostic was more aptly being used as a code word to mean non-Christian. The stories were full of references to a very vital spirituality, utilizing many eastern religious beliefs interconnected with meditation or energy. They were very moving stories and not what I would expect of someone who was without certainty. The Conference Committee on Literature is in the process of publishing a pamphlet "which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous." This 61st Conference is entertaining a request to reconsider this action. I am very curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these terms. Is it an easy way to talk about "other than Christian" spirituality? Amelia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7314. . . . . . . . . . . . Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics #1 From: intuited . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2011 6:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Rick, I enjoyed your email and wanted to follow up with my current thinking on the conference. Your thoughts were very helpful. Conference Pamphlet. The 61st Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous will address one of the most critical issues of our organization, -- the question of spirituality and the AA premise regarding its nature as it impacts on sobriety. Last year the 60th Conference approved a motion to: "develop literature which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous." The phrase “who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous" has created a fury which has resulted in a request to rescind this motion (Agenda G of the Literature Committee.) AA was founded and is maintained by a set of principles for the individual and the organization that are spiritual in nature. This spirituality requires that each person determine the nature of this spiritual power, greater than herself or himself, through his or her own direct knowledge of that power. This direct experience can be described in a myriad of terms including the power, wisdom, miracles and/or love in the rooms of AA (see The Best of Bill, p. 2). Many of us move from the spirits in the bottles to the spirits in the rooms. One’s perception of this power is never questioned, only one’s surrender to IT. The alcoholic must come to the end of oneself. Spirituality is a result of “working the 12 steps. This 60th conference motion implies several premises that are in violation of our fundamental beliefs. It implies that agnostics and atheists can, without spirituality or the steps, be successfully sober. And it implies that the trustees’ Literature Committee can define this new premise and its success with alcoholism by the selection of certain success stories. It also references a religion, atheism. Yet the U.S courts have ruled on several occasions that atheism is a religion. Our documents make clear that we are not a religion. The Conference has already decided that we will have no literature on religion so this motion is in violation of a previous conference decision. The trustees’ Literature Committee brilliantly sidestepped this dilemma by planning the development of a pamphlet that would have a general introduction and stories from alcoholics sober in AA reflecting a wide range of spiritual experiences. The subcommittee agreed that the target audience for the pamphlet would be the alcoholic newcomer who struggles with the spiritual aspect of the program...and it could be used as a resource for professionals who have questions about the subject. (See February 3, 2011 Agenda Item B, Background Doc. 1, trustees' Literature Committee.) They then issued: Call for Stories Focused on Spirituality In response to the 2010 General Service Conference recommendation the 'the trustees' Committee on Literature develop literature which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous...' the trustee's Literature Committee is seeking stories from AA members. The trustees are looking for stories that reflect a wide range of spiritual experiences from AA members who, with any belief or non-belief, have found a solution to the concept of spirituality and sobriety in Alcoholics Anonymous. Manuscripts should be 500-800 words, double-spaced. Please attach your name and address on a separate piece of paper. The anonymity of all authors will be observed, whether or not their story is selected for publication. Please send sharing, by February 15, 2011 to: Literature Coordinator, General Service Office, Box 459, Grand Central Station, New York, NY 10163, or e-mail: literature@aa.org." Although they temporarily sidestepped this dilemma, this did not satisfy those who requested that the motion be rescinded. Thus it will be taken up within the trustees’ Literature Committee and possibly the floor. From the beginnings of AA atheists and agnostics insisted on adding the phrase, God “as we understand Him.” Our literature has continued to address a broad spectrum of stories related to spirituality, including agnostics and atheists. Are we reading and passing on these resources to the newcomer? The most important question to answer is: “Do we need a pamphlet on spirituality?” 1. The AA Grapevine has several relevant publications, Spiritual Awakenings (2003), Spiritual Awakenings II (2010) and Came to Believe (1973). These documents include an abundance of stories from agnostics and atheists as well as many eastern and other religions and philosophies. The April 2009 issue of the Grapevine is devoted to “Agnostics in Recovery: Coming to Grips with a Higher Power.” Additionally the AA Grapevine produced the CD, "Pathways to Spirituality" (2002) and cassette "Pathways to Spirituality" (1987). They also published Dilemma of No Faith and The Best of Bill by Bill W. Yet these stories are not reflected in a pamphlet. 2. Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. has published several relevant books and pamphlets. The 4th edition of the Alcoholics Anonymous has several stories written by agnostics and atheists and other are in the Experience, Strength, and Hope publication (2003). These stories include all the ones omitted from the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Big Book editions. One pamphlet, “Do You Think You Are Different?” is similar to the new proposed pamphlet, but could be broader in scope. It does include one story from an atheist and one story from an agnostic (pp. 15, 31) but does not address a broad array of other spiritual paths. This pamphlet could be combined with the new proposed pamphlet and re-titled? Several other pamphlets briefly address agnostics and atheists: Frequently Asked Questions about AA, This is AA: An Introduction to the AA Recovery Program, and A Newcomer Asks…. Another pamphlet, “The AA Group: Where It All Begins” could include a question in the Group Inventory on p. 29-30 words in #3 such as: "Are we careful to honor all spiritual paths or do our meetings utilize practices or prayers which favor one religion?” “Are we emphasizing that all spiritual paths are welcome here?” While we have been focusing on the agnostic and atheist issue we have overlooked a much bigger issue, ---a need for a communication of the broader spectrum of spiritual experiences and transformation. Our membership needs literature, sponsors, meetings and 12-step work that describes and honors the incredibly diverse spiritual paths that we utilize to get and stay sober! And a pamphlet would make this much more accessible than our books. On Mar 16, 2011, at 8:03 PM, ricktompkins wrote: This is a clarification to the sharing of what's in intuited (Amelia)'s post about the General Service Conference agenda and her final question. The Conference Literature Committee is planning its discussion toward recommending approval or disapproval on two agenda items: Item B: Review progress report from the trustee's Literature Committee on the development of literature which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous. Item G: Consider a request to reconsider the 2010 Conference Advisory Action that "the trustees Literature Committee develop literature which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous." On one hand, the trustees' Literature Committee is giving a progress report on the feasibility (want vs. need vs. cost) and format (length, type of publishing) of new literature that would most likely be a pamphlet. That's what the 2010 Conference instructed them to develop: the possibilities. On the other hand, item G's reconsideration request is to either recommend Conference approval or disapproval on the "non-religious" spirituality pamphlet which was approved to proceed last year. The deluge of input on item G suggests a lot of constructive ideas have been submitted for the project since last year, on both the pro and con for AAWS to undertake such a new work of literature. In the end, only the Conference Committee on Literature will make the recommendation to the Conference whether to stop or proceed. If the proposed pamphlet proceeds, the 2011 two newly Appointed Committee Members on the Literature Committee will certainly be doing a lot of reading, reviewing submitted work. The AA Grapevine, Inc. has previously published four soft cover books on spirituality without the heavy input of religious faith: two versions of "Came To Believe, " another on "Spirituality" and another called "AA Around the World." The question is, should AAWS, Inc. publish one, too? Give it time, and the AA Grapevine will publish another one on AA spirituality. In my home turf, the current issue of the Chicago Area's "Here's How" has six articles on spirituality and only one of the articles mentions God. And in my group and other meetings, I can understand many who are continually developing their understanding of God, those holding an unshakable belief in the God of the Bible, those who refuse to consider any belief because of past experience, and those who have never been effectively exposed to God-consciousness. Call it the whole gamut of faiths: those who say they know and those still finding out. Anyone can get sober with or without a religious faith. Intuited wrote: I am very curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these terms. Is it an easy way to talk about 'other than Christian' spirituality?" My answer is "yes." It could be one of AA's greatest strengths about "God as we understood Him" to appreciate any member's generic, poorly defined 'Creator' to be called "God" because even that slight belief keeps that member's recovery in focus. Bill W. wrestled with the "God" concept when he first got sober, too. I'm not uneasy when I speak of God with the name "God" when I personally have my own belief and don't feel the need to explain it. One-on-one, it's all right for me to explain when asked, but otherwise in general group sharing it's always come across as a distraction. I've been to many Pentecostal services, seminars, and plenty of AA Open Speaker meetings, and while I love them both their intent and the destinations are very different! Still sober, Rick, Illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7315. . . . . . . . . . . . Third Tradition: Short Form and Long Form From: Joanna . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2011 12:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am writing an article for our Area Newsletter re: the long and short form of the third tradition. I have searched this forum looking for answers - found Arthur S's Part 4 re: how the short form of the Traditions were developed. But I am still not satisfied because I can't find anything that tells me how the short form could possibly have adequately represented the long form. I am glad to know now, that the short forms were not written to fit on the window shade, as has become urban legend in AA, but I am not finding what I am looking for. Can anyone add any information for me on how the short form, when it was first drawn up, was regarded as an adequate summation of the long form? Joanna W. An AA Group Area 10 ______________________________________ TRADITION THREE -- SHORT FORM (12 and 12 page 139) "The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking." TRADITION THREE -- LONG FORM (12 and 12 page 189) "Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation." BIG BOOK -- FOREWORD TO FIRST EDITION (Big Book 4th edit. page xiv) "The only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop drinking." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7316. . . . . . . . . . . . Chuck Chamberlain From: Ryan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2011 2:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello, I am researching Chuck Chamberlain. I was wondering if anyone could provide me with any information other than what I have found in this group already. I know about New Pair of Glasses, various talks, as well as the DVD that Clancy hands out at the Midnight Mission. The DVD is this talk: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=chuck+c+new+pair+of+glasses&aq=f [11] Other than that, I haven't found any other publications or information about Chuck. Does anyone know of any, or have any? I also know that Chuck was an Ordained Minister of Religious Science. I found the October 1962 issue of Science of Mind Magazine, which has an article covering the Chamberlains. There is a good amount of information about Chuck's involvement with Religious Science. In any event, if anyone has any information that I don't have, I would be VERY grateful. I am attempting to put together an archive display to show my sponsees, and to donate to the local District Archives. Love and Service IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7317. . . . . . . . . . . . Grapevine Play: Sybil, Irma Livoni, Frank, Cliff, and Mort From: John Moore . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2011 4:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From John Moore and Jackie Bendzinski - - - - From: John Moore (contact.johnmoore at gmail.com) Great to know these stories are being kept alive, and thanks to all. I enjoyed hearing Sybil speak at my home group in the 1970's and think of her every time we study the Third Tradition and Irma Livoni who was kicked out of AA in 1941. I am sure Frank and Cliff and Mort were doing the best they knew how at the time. Cliff Walker was my sponsor's sponsor. John M South Burlington, Vermont contact.johnmoore@gmail.com - - - - From: Jackie Bendzinski (jackiebendzinski at mac.com) Hi John We poke some fun at Frank's heavy-handedness :) The Los Angeles scene is my favorite in the play and we've expanded it and Cliff's role for our LA performance. The second act of "In Our Own Words" is dedicated to the Third Tradition, but unfortunately it did not work for this play to include Irma's story, though it is personally one of the most powerful and tragic stories I have heard in AA history. I'm researching and (slowly) writing a second documentary style play solely on the history behind each tradition. Irma's story will be in that play. If you email inourownwords.sanantonio@gmail.com, I can email you a pdf of the script. I wish you could be there for our Los Angeles show. If anyone knows Sybil's living sponsees and grand-sponsees in LA, I am very much hoping to get in contact with them and invite them to the play. The LA archivist, Harvey, and Sybil's daughter have already been invited. In fact, Sybil's daughter has seen our recording and was very positive and supportive. Take care, Jackie B San Francisco, California ___________________________________________ ORIGINAL MESSAGE Message #7307 from "jaxena77" (jackiebendzinski at mac.com) Grapevine Play in Los Angeles We are very excited to announce that on Saturday, June 25, 2011, In Our Own Words: Pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous will be performed in Los Angeles County for the very first time. We are especially honored for this opportunity to tell Sybil Corwin's story in her hometown, alongside the stories of Mort Joseph, Cliff Walker, Frank Randall, June G and the many pioneering members of AA in Southern California. The AAHistoryLovers Yahoo Group was vital in the researching and writing of this documentary style play. Our shows in Northern California and Texas have sold out to standing room only audiences for the past two years. Please SAVE THE DATE and spread the word to anyone you know in Southern California. We need your help to PASS IT ON! Forward this message to a friend - http://oi.vresp.com/f2af/v4/send_to_friend.html?ch=0076d7232a&lid=TEST&ldh=T EST In Love and Service, Jackie B. =============================================== FULL COLOR FLYER WITH PHOTOS: http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/771229/0076d7232a/TEST/TEST/ =============================================== IN OUR OWN WORDS: PIONEERS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS Performing for the first time in Los Angeles County! A SPECIAL BENEFIT FOR ICYPAA 2011! Saturday, June 25 at 8 pm The Lincoln Middle School Theater 1501 California Ave, Santa Monica, CA Played to standing room only audiences in San Antonio in 2010, In Our Own Words brings to life the pages of the Big Book, The Grapevine and the recordings of the pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous. Simply, and with great humor and depth, the play retells the stories of our founders in New York, Akron, Cleveland and Los Angeles. Going further into our history, In Our Own Words also shares the lesser-known struggles of the pioneering members of special composition groups in the fellowship, including the first women and young people in AA, as well as early gay, lesbian, African-American and Latino members. Join men and women like Marty Mann, Sybil Corwin, Cliff Walker, Barry Leach, Joe McQuanny, and many more, on their search for a solution and acceptance in the rooms. Their stories, and this play, are not to be missed. Tickets available soon at www.icypaahost.org IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7318. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Proxy or absentee votes at Group conscience meetings From: mikey_portz . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2011 5:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From mikey_portz, gerrynmt, Mike Batty, and Ben Hammond - - - - From: "mikey_portz" (mportz2000 at yahoo.com) 1. LOOK AT THE TRADITIONS Your question is answered in Traditions One and Four. To quote the long form of Tradition Four, "With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups ought to be consulted. And no group .... or individual should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole without conferring with the trustees of the General Service Board. On such issues our common welfare is paramount." 2. IN CASE OF DOUBT, CONTACT THE NEW YORK GSO For all the questions I have ever sent GSO regarding group actions, their basic answer always refers me to Traditions 2 and 4. For solving any questions regarding my home group's actions, policies, guidance, suggestions, the Traditions, the Concepts, etc., I have found the most prudent solution to solving these questions, is to email my "Pacific Region" representative at GSO. She/he replies with a email within a couple of days and it seems all members of my group, or my sponsees, are satisfied with A.A's GSO's answer. Everyone trusts GSO's responses and it seems it stops any of the group's members from being angry or resentful, which sometimes happens when the answer comes from "a friend of mine with a lot of time," "I was told by a oldtimer," or "I heard it in a meeting." - - - - From: "gerrynmt" (traditionsway at yahoo.com) "A service sponsee asked me whether there is any literature relating to proxy or absentee voting at a group conscience meeting." Page S37 in the AA Service manual indicates that while each group decides for itself, it is not commonly practiced. - - - - From: Mike Batty (mcbat.t at rogers.com) My observation based on many years of group and district service. Oftentimes a vote takes place at group level based on a prior meeting's discussion and suitable discernment period, therefore I see no reason why group members may not cast their vote in proxy if unable to attend. Similarly a member could stand for an office of the group the night of nominations and/or voting, be they not present. I would say in both occasions such notification should be in writing and delivered by the proxy. I am sure this is keeping with Roberts Rules of Order which business are best advised to follow taking into consideration the necessary majorities called for in the AA service manual. Remember just because it is AA there is no reason to disregard common sense ;) Mike Batty Waterloo, Ontario - - - - From: Ben Hammond (mlb9292 at gmail.com) I agree with you, must be present to vote. Keep up the good work ... God Bless, Old Ben from Tulsa IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7319. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition From: mikey_portz . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2011 4:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I agree with Chuck P. that the Big Book is "the most definitive book EVER written on alcoholism." Without question it is also most certainly as literal as any book I have ever read. I am not certain why Bill chose to use the words "illness," malady, or "sickness" instead of disease, but I can give you, as a long time aficionado of A.A. and Bill Wilson history " an educated guess as to why Bill (or if you prefer "the authors") were "specifically avoiding that term and for good reason." The book was being written to "sell" (the word used by the original 35-40 total number of "Oxford Group drunk squad" members who in the late fall of 1937, agreed the Book should be written) to the "millions" of suffering alcoholics in this country and eventually, the rest of the world. Because of this, and because they expected the book to be read by thousands of non-alcoholics as well as many influential members of the medical profession, they did not want to create any type of controversy (avoidance of controversy has always been, and still is, something which our society has tried to avoid with complete abandon) nor offend with who resisted alcoholism being called a disease. Most people in the 30's, and deep into the 1970's, did not like to admit or consider that alcoholism is/might be a disease. It was considered nothing but weak will power, laziness, lack of morals, etc., etc. The reasons the pioneer alcoholics wanted the book and the program to "sell" were simply and totally altruistic. No one, including Bill W, was in it for the money. The primary reason they wanted it to sell and succeed was to give alkies a "way out, for which there was none at the time nor in the history of our planet. At least no way that anyone could consistently count on. If the book was not well received, A.A. might, quite possibly, ceased to exist. I would also like to give the definition of "malady" which I will again take from my 1938 dictionary. It is, "a disease or disorder of body or mind." From the same dictionary, "illness" is defined simply and solely as "sickness." Merriam-Webster defines "sickness" as; n. 1 : ill health; also; a specific disease 2. : NAUSEA. So to me it is what it is and that is that disease, illness, sickness, and malady are all synonymous. By the way I found the Nausea definition for sickness to be "right up my alley" as it is exactly how alcohol affected me towards the end of the evening (or before) on may occasions. FYI, in the first 164 pages the word "illness" is used 12 times (three on page 18), "malady" 8 times and "sickness" 1 time. The word "Disease" (to the best of my knowledge) is only used once in the first 164. It can be found on page #64 but its usage is related to "resentments," not the disease of alcoholism. "From it stem all forms of spiritual disease." For a more clear as well as precise answer to Chuck's question, as well as any question regarding the writing of the "Big Book", A.A. History, The "Traditions," etc., I would like to suggest emailing The GSO office, Archives Department, in New York to New York. Answering questions for A.A.'s is one of the primary services that GSO provides and they are some of the nicest and most accommodating people I've ever run into. I do have one question for Chuck P., that may help to answer his original question. It is, why did Bill Wilson Dr. Bob, The American Medical Association, all of the other pioneering A.A.'s, Dr. Henry Tiebout, Dr. William D. Silkworth, etc., etc. etc. always refer to alcoholism as a disease. Because these stalwarts and founders of our program, declarations by the AMA and other A.A. proponents referred to alcoholism as a disease, is probably the main reason the rest of us do. And, many of us through research of the disease concept, have come to believe it as the truth. Right or wrong, I think for me referring to my alcoholism as a disease, definitely helps me to understand my malady and help keep me living the steps so that I can keep my alcoholism in remission. Just like cancer, it will kill me. I have no problem calling it a disease. If I did, I probably would be a little less happy, joyous and free. Kind regards in fellowship - - - - "Chuck Parkhurst" ineedpage63@...> wrote: Why would the authors of the most definitive book EVER written on alcoholism REPEATEDLY refer to the condition we suffer from as an "illness" if they meant "disease?" In many areas of our book, we see the authors repeatedly use synonyms and similar phrases to make the same point over and over. However, when the authors use this same device regarding the alcoholic illness, they do NOT use disease and prefer a term like malady. I believe that the fact disease is conspicuous by its absence in similar circumstances confirms that the authors were specifically avoiding that term and for good reason. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7320. . . . . . . . . . . . First women to take AA meetings into correctional facilities From: janie100570@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2011 3:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am looking for information on the first women to take AA meetings into (women's) correctional facilities. Any data any member of the HistoryLovers can provide would be much appreciated. Thank you -- Jane S L IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7321. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: First women to take AA meetings into correctional facilities From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2011 9:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I heard a talk by Jack P. where he talked about how he and Wynn L. began taking meetings into the LA County jail and that it was not looked upon favorably by other members of AA. This would have been late 1940's or very early 1950's. There is also documentation of Betty Thom doing a lot of work with jails and prisons. She corresponded with a many prison based groups and contributed to their newsletters. Chris B. Raleigh, North Carolina IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7322. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Chuck Chamberlain From: Susan Banker . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2011 6:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Susan Banker and Jared Lobdell - - - - From: Susan Banker in New York City (sbanker914 at aol.com) Hello Ryan, This is one interesting item that I found online: Chuck C.'s Testimony Before a U.S. Senate Subcommittee http://silkworth.net/aahistory/chuckc1969.html ************************************ Re-printed with permission by Nancy Olson, moderator of The AA History Lovers e-group. Nancy's book "With a Lot of Help from Our Friends" is the major study of the passing of the Hughes Act -- it was the Hughes Act, NOT Prohibition, which was the most important piece of alcoholism legislation in 20th century U.S. history. The Hughes Act still provides the basis for modern U.S. alcoholism treatment centers. ************************************ Nancy Olson says: Chuck C., a well-known early AA member in California, testified before the Alcoholism and Drug Abuse Subcommittee in Los Angeles on Saturday, September 27, 1969. This is his testimony which I have copied from the official hearing records: Present: Senators Hughes, (presiding), Dominick, and Saxbe [members of the Subcommittee]. Also present: Senators Cranston and Murphy [both Senators from California]. THEN NANCY GAVE THE TEXT OF CHUCK'S SPEECH TO THE SENATE SUBCOMMITTEE Nancy concluded by noting that others have sent the following information on Chuck C.: He was born in 1902, and got sober in A.A. in January 1946. He wrote a book called "A New Pair Of Glasses" which is a transcript of a retreat he gave for alcoholics in 1975. The Preface is written by Clancy I. of California. It can be purchased through New-Look Publishing Co., 1960 Fairchild, Irvine, CA 92715. His son [Richard] became a famous actor. Chuck died in 1984. - - - - From: "J. Lobdell" (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) His son, the actor [George] Richard Chamberlain, is still alive and active at 77 -- perhaps you could talk to him. I don't recall if his autobiography Shattered Love (2009) has anything on his father. The well-known AA speaker Johnnie H (Long Beach) has pretty detailed recollections of Chuck (who indeed came up several times in a conversation we had at breakfast last month). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7323. . . . . . . . . . . . Charlie of JOE AND CHARLIE passed away last night From: WendiT . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/21/2011 12:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Charlie P. A man passed away last night that has carried a message to hundreds of thousands of us all over the world. He was a great messenger, a tireless servant, and a dear dear friend. He carried the message of the Big Book and keep it alive in a time when most of our fellowship had lost touch with our basic principles - your effect has been felt - your footprint has been left - and I thank you Charlie. Charlie P, along with Joe McQ and in later years Joe McC, traveled the world for over 35 years starting fires of enthusiasm for our basic text. -- Bob D. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7324. . . . . . . . . . . . Charlie P. funeral Tuesday April 26, 2011 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2011 3:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mt Hermon Church 18035 E 420 Rd, Jay, Oklahoma 74346-3500 phone (918) 253-4111 Message #37490 from: "A Change Will Do You Good" Yahoo group http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/achangewilldoyougood/message/37490 Just got a call from Barbara Parmley .... Charlie died last night of a heart attack. Charlie turned 82 years old on the 8th of April. They lived in Maysville, Arkansas. The funeral will be at Mt. Hermon Church in Jay, Oklahoma on Tuesday from 2-4 pm. There will also be a viewing on Monday night. In lieu of flowers, memorials in his name can be sent to The House of Hope.** Charlie and Joe McQuany started the Big Book Studies in the early 70's, traveling the world carrying the AA Big Book Message. Love and may your God go with you, Ian S. ______________________________________ From G.C. the moderator: Ian said the House of Hope was in Jay, Oklahoma, and that they had a website at www.houseofhope.com I couldn't find that. The closest I could find to that name and location was http://houseofhopegrove.com/ in Grove, Oklahoma. The three towns (Maysville, Arkansas -- Jay, Oklahoma -- Grove, Oklahoma) are all just a few miles apart. But I recommend checking though before sending any donations to the one in Grove, just to make sure it is the right one. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7325. . . . . . . . . . . . Death of Charlie P of the Joe and Charlie tapes From: Dolores . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/21/2011 4:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII [From Rob Fuhrman, Dolores, Bent Christensen, Cindy Miller, Stephen Macchia, and anne marie.] Charlie Parmley from Maysville, Arkansas, along with Joe McQuany and in later years Joe McCoy, traveled the world for over 35 years starting fires of enthusiasm for our basic text. ______________________________ From: Rob Fuhrman (stepnazi at yahoo.com) Had a heart attack on the way home from a meeting. Carried the message all the way to the end of his life. True love and service. ______________________________ From: "Dolores" (dolli at dr-rinecker.de) Dear Bob, I am so sorry to hear that Charlie has passed away. I met him twice at Big Book studies in Nurnburg Germany. The first time he was there was in 1989 and Frank Mauser from the GSO Archives was along and Travers from Bristol. Unforgettable. Charlie and Joe both did such a good job of making clear how important it is to get the message from the Big Book. Thanks for letting me and us know. Yours in AA, Dolores ______________________________ From: "bent_christensen5" (bent_christensen5 at yahoo.com) God bless his soul and let us all keep caring the message in the same spirit as they did. Charlie changed my life and I 'm very grateful for the work he and Joe did for AA. If you hear anything regarding funeral or memorial, please let me know. We are not that well informed here in Denmark. Bent Christensen Valmuevej 17 6000 Kolding Tlf. +45 50 12 17 43 www.synlighjemmeside.dk ______________________________ From: Cindy Miller (cm53 at earthlink.net) I am absolutely stunned and saddened. Charlie seems like an old friend who comes to my home every Friday night when I gather with a bunch of newcomers, and we listen to the "Joe & Charlie" seminars. There is a meeting near here that uses these tapes in their format -- kind of like an AA Speaker. Another speaker/chairperson for that Big Meeting in the Sky .... :-( Cindy Miller ______________________________ From: Stephen Macchia (joe_zip at sbcglobal.net) I got sober in a Joe and Charlie study nearly 25 years ago, and we are still listening to the original set of tapes. To say they helped me to get sober would be to understate the case. They will both now be missed, but they still carry the message, at least they will on Monday nights in Southern California. -- Steve ______________________________ From: "anne marie" (tim1leg at yahoo.com) Thank you, for letting us know. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7326. . . . . . . . . . . . Personal memories of Charlie P. From: Sherry C. Hartsell . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2011 12:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Wonderful memories of a close AA relationship in both our young Service yrs in Arkansas ---- personal sadness at his loss, sad for his family and the fellowship, Charley P and Wayne P were all officers in the Arkansas Assembly together, that Assembly became my Home Group for all intents and purposes even though I had a wonderful HOME AA Group in Magnolia, Ark, where I was privileged to operate from into the State AREA (We had only ONE AREA and it was called the Arkansas State Assembly --- we caught some flack from our neighbors in NETA until they came to understand that Ark was not in need of division into multiple AREAS as was our neighbor Texas. Charley P. and Wayne P. shared the same Sponsor, Neil, who had been a Delegate and was intent upon his sponsees being exposed to the fullness of AA Service; we each served our terms on most of the Standing Committees and Offices within the Assembly --- were hauled to or encouraged to attend any Service function within a 3-4 State Area---and we mostly did attend/participate where appropriate most all he encouraged us to attend. I was the Assembly Chair for two terms and was responsible for researching and with another member from Ft Smith who could type really well, responsible for putting together the first set of "Policies and Procedures" for The Arkansas Assembly. Shortly thereafter I was tasked with inviting David A. of Dallas to come up to Little Rock and present a talk on the "Legacies" --- David stayed over the week-end, I had a Brand-New 9 passenger Chevrolet Station Wagon that got drafted into service to and from meetings, hotel, and restaurants ---- we had a blast and it was the beginning of some long lasting relationships in A.A. David got hold of our new Policies & Procedures, was impressed, said NETA was trying to come up with P&P for their Area, could he borrow a set of the Ark P&P to take back and use as a pattern for developing a set for NETA. Of course we loaned them to him and he latter shared with me that our document was only amended to fit their local circumstances ------ which is what I had mostly done by traveling to and getting P&P from Mississippi, Oklahoma, and Louisiana, then taking ideas from each and making that document fit our situation in Arkansas. In 1986 or 7, I was buying oil & gas Leases in North Dakota with a sponsee from Tyler, Texas named TOM, well, Tom had been tasked to get me to invite the Speakers for that years TYLER ANNIVERSARY --- I called Jim from The Glass House Group in Ft Worth, then Joe McQ in Little Rock, Arkansas. Joe McQ at first refused by saying quite frankly, "SHERRY! I can't come speak in Tyler, Texas. Them folks got the KLAN in Tyler!", and he was indeed serious. So, from North Dakota, I called my wife Beverly back in Arkansas and told her she must call Joe's wife, Lou Belle, and convince her to convince Joe, to promise that we would drive down with them and stay in the same hotel, share a room if she would feel better about it. I called Joe back, he agreed under the condition that I ask Charley P to come and introduce him, and that he could bring "some of his boys" from the treatment center he ran in Little Rock. The Tyler Committee for the most part were unaware that Joe McQ was a black man, I believe it was his first experience speaking outside the State of Arkansas. There were perhaps 1500 at that Anniversary most of whom had never heard of Joe McQ or Charley P. The results were that within a yr of that talk, Joe McQ was booked up solid FIVE YEARS in advance and within a short time after that, "Joe & Charley Big Book Talks" were spread literally world-wide. Charley P was my friend, my brother in the Fellowship and in It's Service --- I am so grateful God placed Charley P, Wayne P., AND Joe McQ in my path, my sobriety is better for having had that association. Sherry C.H. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7327. . . . . . . . . . . . Charlie P -- full details of funeral arrangements From: hdmozart . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2011 5:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From the Worley-Luginbuel Funeral Home - Jay, Oklahoma General Information Full Name: Charles A Parmley Date of Birth: Friday April 8th 1921 Date of Death: Thursday April 21st 2011 First Visitation When: Monday April 25th 2011 6:00pm - 8:00pm Location: Worley-Luginbuel Funeral Home - Jay 1600 S Main St Jay, Oklahoma Service Information When: Tuesday April 26th 2011 2:00pm Location: Mt. Hermon Church 68035 E 420 Rd Jay, Oklahoma Interment Information Location: Maysville Cemetery Hwy 43 Maysville, Arkansas Donations in lieu of flowers to be sent in Memory of Charlie Parmley to: House of Hope Inc, PO Box 451585 Grove, OK 74345 918-786-2930 Or donations may be made online at: http://houseofhopegrove.com Obituary and more information: http://luginbuelfuneralhome.frontrunnerpro.com/runtime/3060/runtime.php?Site Id=3\ 060&NavigatorId=54126&viewOpt=dpaneOnly&ItemId=723627&op=tributeMemorialCand les [12] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7328. . . . . . . . . . . . Memorial book for Charlie P of the Joe and Charlie tapes From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2011 4:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Doug B at AAHISTORY.COM has set up a memorial book for Charlie P if anyone would like to leave their thoughts and prayers. Here is a link: http://www.aahistory.com/charliep/sign.php Being a poor reader, Joe and Charlie helped me understand what I was reading in a way that no one else could. I honestly do not think I would be where I am in my recovery without them. Miss you Charlie Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7329. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe McC of the Joe and Charlie tapes From: DouglasBlackburn@bellsouth.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2011 4:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is Joe McCoy still alive? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7331. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe McC is alive and well From: DONALD BENNITT . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2011 11:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Joe McCoy of the Joe and Charlie tapes is alive and well. (from Don Bennitt and Jim Hoffman) - - - - From: DONALD BENNITT (dbennitt at sbcglobal.net) I talked with Joe Mc on Thursday. It is Joe Mc Q -- the other Joe -- that has passed. Don - - - - From: "Jim Hoffman" (jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com) The statement that Joe McCoy is also dead is totally incorrect information. Joe McCoy was alive and well on Wednesday April 20, 2011. ________________________________ From: Aldo Sent: April 23, 2011 Subject: Re: Joe McC of the Joe and Charlie tapes Sadly, Joe Mc has passed away also. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7332. . . . . . . . . . . . We need a good history of Charlie and the two Joes From: RacewayJay . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2011 5:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII When did Charlie get sober? What about the two Joes? When did they get sober? Is there any good history on them already written? If not, would someone be willing to write a good, detailed historical account? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7333. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe McQ of the Joe and Charlie tapes From: Patricia . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2011 5:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Joe McQuany died October 25, 2007 (from pdixonrae, Charley Bill, and Dave T.) - - - - From Patricia (pdixonrae at yahoo.com) Charlie's partner Joe McQuany died in October 2007. The following was his funeral announcemnt. Patricia - - - - FUNERAL ANNOUNCEMENT Joe McQuany (November 16, 1928 - October 25, 2007) From the Kelly Foundation website: http://www.kellyfdn.com/condolences_in_memory_of_joe_mcq.htm Wake and Viewing: Wednesday October 31, 9 A.M. - 9 P.M., at the Wolfe Street Center, 1210 Wolfe Street, Little Rock, AR 72202 Phone (501) 372-5662 http://www.wolfestreet.org/ Family Visitation: Wednesday October 31 at the Wolfe Street Center 6 P.M. - 7 P.M. The Funeral will be held on Thursday November 1, 2007 - 11 A.M. - Pulaski Heights United Methodist Church, 4823 Woodlawn Avenue, Little Rock, Arkansas 72205 http://www.phumc.com/where.htm - - - - From: Charley Bill (charley92845 at gmail.com) The original Joe went by the name of Joe McQ and was the founder and proprietor of a very large rehab in Little Rock. He died October 25, 2007. Here is a photo, a very good one as I remember Joe from 10 years ago. Here's a link to his memorial page: http://www.aahistory.com/joemcq/sign.php - - - - Also from: Dave T. in Connecticut (bluefox at dublin.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7334. . . . . . . . . . . . Carl Jung - spiritual vs. religious, and syncronicity From: Paul . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2011 12:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Since I've read everything (I think) "AA history" that sold over 10K copies, I think, and even a few that sold less, I'm on page 1 (first of the text proper - page 6) of Robert Stonebraker's book, "A Pre-AA History Book, A Study of Synchronic Events." CARL JUNG: SPIRITUAL vs. RELIGIOUS A question (now scanning a few pages ahead) pertains to the figure containing Carl Jung's use of the expression(s) "real religious insight" and "highest religious experience" interchangeably, it would appear, with the sort of event or experience (or "education/evolution"), spiritual in nature, that the vexed alcoholic might/must seek. Subsequently, on that page of text, you cite: "Since Rowland was a typical alcoholic, however, it took him seven more years of denial and misery -- as he continued to refuse to take Jung's prescription seriously -- before he met Courtenay Baylor from the Emmanuel Movement and began seeking a spiritual solution for his alcoholism.." adding that, "Jung ended up telling Rowland that he had never seen alcoholics of his type recover until they became willing to commit themselves to the spiritual life." We also have "You recommended that he place himself in a religious atmosphere and hope for the best. This I believe was the substance of your advice," in the letter from Bill W. for Jung. Those familiar with AA history likely regard the spiritual VS religious "discrepancy" as old hat, or splitting hairs, or both. "Resign from the debating society" is a common invective. The irony, if there is any, is the veritable insistence, or zeal, that "I'm spiritual but not religious," about which many AA's are adamant. Since noted physicist Wolfgang Pauli collaborated with Jung, it (spiritual VS religious) may just be an example of the "Principle of Complimentarity," whereby when "looking" for the wave-like features of electromagnetic radiation (visible light for instance) or the particle-like features (photons), science detects either - but never both simultaneously. Anyhow, historically speaking - if that's the terminology - at some point in history it doesn't seem to have mattered much, unless "organized religion" is connoted to mean "religion." That might not mean anything. Except for the fact that Jung's causal principle may be in question, especially if (his own) "verification technique" or "evidence" has much to do. CARL JUNG: SYNCHRONICITY Regarding Synchronicity — An Acausal Connecting Principle (which I confess to reading about 60 pages of at Barnes & Noble roughly a decade ago) wikipedia.org portends that it "was a principle that Jung felt gave conclusive evidence for his concepts of archetypes and the collective unconscious ". Enter Richard Noll. Again, from wikipedia: "In 1994 he [Noll] received an award for Best Book in Psychology from the Association of American Publishers for his book, The Jung Cult: Origins of a Charismatic Movement. The resulting controversy over the book made front-page headlines worldwide, including a front-page report in the 3 June 1995 issue of The New York Times . Princeton University Press submitted The Jung Cult to the Pulitzer Prize competition that year, without success. Although not a definitivetreatment of Jung, the book acted as a climacteric, effectively changing the agenda of scholarly debate in Jung studies for the more than a decade that has followed its publication" [Bold added.] I read Noll's book(s) more carefully. Among other things, what the former Harvard Professor has effectively done is made a conclusive case that Jung's clinical "evidence" for archetypes en toto was essentially flubbed, and if that weren't enough, that Jung's later book(s) intentionally disguised/suppressed the fairly blatant fudge factors. It's that simple. No one, to my knowledge, has proven, or even attempted to prove Noll's scholarly research "wrong." The Jung estate essentially "closed the vaults" to further research as a result. Their subsequent publication of Jung's Red Book seems to have been a red herring. The 400 pound gorilla hasn't moved an inch: Noll has apparently already let every bit of the cat out of the bag. I'm not saying that Jung was a liar. Noll "exposes" Jung, in many respects, to the best of his (or anyone's?) "historical ability" for what he was as a charismatic and expresses his admiration for Jung's unique genius. I honestly have no idea of the validity of synchronicity. I strongly suspect there's something inherent in the human imagination that predisposes us towards these types of theories. There's the old "nothing happens by accident" or "I don't believe in coincidences" axiom(s). What is really synchronous? comes to mind. I don't think Bill W. gave Carl Jung a tip of his hat out of coincidence. I don't think JD Rockefeller paid Bill Wilson's salary (at least for a time) purely out of coincidence. I don't think Bill and Lois Wilson were married in the Swedenborg Church purely out of coincidence. I don't think Aldous Huxley called Bill Wilson "The greatest social architect of our time" purely out of coincidence; maybe I don't believe in coincidences, either. Wilson appears to have been extremely ingenious and resourceful and especially driven in the goal, his goal, of attaining permanent sobriety. I think it would be worth considering the synchronous nature of the spiritual milieu (means religious atmosphere) circa 1925 - or even 1921 because of the end of the war - 1935 - and perhaps up to about 1941. Just like I haven't any strong "pro" or "contra" feeling towards AA (on an individual basis) I haven't any towards Jung's synchronicity. "To each his own," or "attraction rather than promotion," suits me fine, and it would appear the AA "concept" (fellowship) has helped many, and the synchronicity concept may have as well. My own personal opinion is that any serious student of AA (or rather more precisely Bill W.) "history" (since I'm no historian) might go back so far as Madame Blavatsky or even Emanuel Swedenborg and Böhme. About all that survives in common parlance is the "bohemian lifestyle" that Bill and Lois were so fond of in their married youth. I think the Bill W. biographers call it "a rustic or nomadic lifestyle." Put differently: as we already know, Bill Wilson said, "I've always considered myself a shopper at the spiritual pie counter." (Grapevine, LOH, or Ernie Kurtz, I can't recall.) For sure Carl Jung was baking some very serious cakes; a whole generation were eating them up like candy, and a whole new generation still would, maybe even more so. Having taken the time to examine the Pre-AA History Book 1926-35 book (booklet) and considering its concept, I admire the courage to compose it. Therefore I find it interesting. Having glanced at them, what I'd like now is a premise to read the remaining 27 pages, carefully, as I haven't, rather than simply scanning them to discover an (alternative) premise. That would be work. My question, then, to it's author, may be blunt, and I hope that there's no disrespect on my part: why the exemption of the term "religious?" I don't consider the question "pointed" or "probative," but I won't accept the pat answer(s) "we have no leaders" (as religions do) because "our leaders are but trusted servants," or, "AA hasn't any anathema to religion" beings "many of us return to the religions of our youth," because the language is what I'm asking about. Aside from that, J. Gordon Melton has remarked that "AA may be the only successful example of pure anarchy yet in existence." wikipedia.org: J. Gordon Melton of the University of California, Santa Barbara, Distinguished Senior Fellow at Baylor University 's Institute for Studies of Religion [who has appeared on national TV]. His Encyclopedia of American Religions, which was originally published in 1978, has become a standard work of reference that outstrips the number of groups that Clark was able to identify and classify in the 1940s.) No matter Stonebraker - congratulations on your diligence, and I applaud the obvious considerable effort. "Mapping the territory" is important. Best, Paul IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7335. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics From: Dougbert . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/15/2011 6:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Dougbert and Bailey, plus Gerard vs. Amelia - - - - From: Dougbert (dougbert8 at yahoo.com) Can anybody give me a list of the stories in the Grapevine written by atheists? We need to share the message if we are to perform our 12 step work. I am a godless alcoholic. I believe I can do my best service to the fellowship by letting newcomers know that you CAN get and stay sober without GOD. This is my 12 step calling. All the information from GSO will not save lives if the only messages that are allowed through are those from one or another narrow doctrinal religious perspective. How many newcomers leave the rooms because they are not God worshipers? In fellowship, Doug - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) Bill W said there was freedom of thought and action in AA. Why are we trying to destroy freedom of thought and action? The conference has no authority to order the groups around. As funny as it may sound now, The eleventh step prayer in AA comes of age, says, "For it is by self forgetting that one finds." I do not think what groups think about spirituality has anything to do with spirituality. - - - - From: "Gerard" (GRault at yahoo.com) This thought, quoted from Amelia's message below,*** "This 60th conference motion implies several premises that are in violation of our fundamental beliefs. IT IMPLIES THAT AGNOSTICS AND ATHEISTS CAN, WITHOUT SPIRITUALITY OR THE STEPS, BE SUCCESSFULLY SOBER." -- this thought seems to me to be clearly erroneous. It takes as an implicit given that there can be no spirituality without a belief in the existence of "God," a proposition that would astonish much of the world's population -- Buddhists, for example. It further assumes that to work the steps requires a belief in the existence of THE WRITER'S traditionalist concept of "God." On the contrary, the beauty of the phrase "as we understood Him" (the only italicized words in the steps) is that each of us can interpret the Power in accord with our own beliefs. Many believe that the traditional notion of "God" does not really exist, and understand that the word is simply a metaphor or symbol of the indefinable and unknown Power which is the source of all that exists, especially love, beauty, truth, justice, compassion and similar qualities. Who can rightly presume to tell them that that "understanding" of "God" is officially incorrect in A.A.? Love and tolerance, Gerry New Orleans, Louisiana Hua Hin, Thailand ____________________________________________ *** Original message #7314 from Amelia (intuited at earthlink.net) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7314 Rick, I enjoyed your email and wanted to follow up with my current thinking on the conference. Your thoughts were very helpful .... Last year the 60th Conference approved a motion to: "develop literature which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous" .... This 60th conference motion implies several premises that are in violation of our fundamental beliefs. It implies that agnostics and atheists can, without spirituality or the steps, be successfully sober .... AA was founded and is maintained by a set of principles for the individual and the organization that are spiritual in nature. This spirituality requires that each person determine the nature of this spiritual power, greater than herself or himself, through his or her own direct knowledge of that power. This direct experience can be described in a myriad of terms including the power, wisdom, miracles and/or love in the rooms of AA (see The Best of Bill, p. 2) .... IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7336. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Third Tradition: Short Form and Long Form From: Charley Bill . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2011 3:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Joanna, The same guy wrote both the long and the short forms. If this is true, the author must have felt the short was a proper representation of the long. This author also put them in the 12 and 12, which has some words on why we have a short form. The guy was a fellow by name of Bill "Hole in Shoe" Wilson, and you should know that his words are positively divinely ordained and one must dare not mention the possibility of a change or that there is anything amiss with them. That's heresy. They're perfect, just as they are. Just ask any old timer. Only partially in jest, Charley B. ______________________________________ On 4/18/2011 9:29 AM, Joanna wrote: > > I am writing an article for our Area Newsletter re: the long and short > form of the third tradition. I have searched this forum looking for > answers - found Arthur S's Part 4 re: how the short form of the > Traditions were developed. > > But I am still not satisfied because I can't find anything that tells > me how the short form could possibly have adequately represented the > long form. > > I am glad to know now, that the short forms were not written to fit on > the window shade, as has become urban legend in AA, but I am not > finding what I am looking for. > > Can anyone add any information for me on how the short form, when it > was first drawn up, was regarded as an adequate summation of the long > form? > > Joanna W. > An AA Group > Area 10 > ______________________________________ > > TRADITION THREE -- SHORT FORM > (12 and 12 page 139) > "The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking." > > TRADITION THREE -- LONG FORM > (12 and 12 page 189) > "Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence > we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever > depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered > together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided > that, as a group, they have no other affiliation." > > BIG BOOK -- FOREWORD TO FIRST EDITION > (Big Book 4th edit. page xiv) > "The only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop > drinking." > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7337. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Chuck Chamberlain From: Charley Bill . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2011 4:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ryan, check with someone at the Canyon Club in Laguna Beach, California. Chuck is said to have built it and donated it to the Laguna AAs. It is far above any and all 'AA' facilities I have seen in my 41 years of travels in and out of sobriety. Good Luck and I think you will find someone there who can tell you loads about Chuck. I just knew him scantly, but knew both his drivers and one of his would-be biographers(now dead). There is a branch of the Orange County Central office in Laguna and I bet they have loads of stuff on Chuck, too. A little group I belong to studied A New Pair of Glasses a year or two ago and we were not impressed. I remember him as a great orator, but did not know much about the content of his speeches as I was new at the time. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7338. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2011 6:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Jared Lobdell and Glenn Chesnut - - - - From" "J. Lobdell" (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) Richard Peabody seems to have tried to bring about sobriety through surrender without having anything or anyone in particular to surrender to -- with dubious results. Carl Jung's views were certainly focused on the spiritual (as were William James's) without accepting the ordinary interpretations of the word "religious" (remember Jung's spiritus contra spiritum). It is certainly possible, by definition, for an agnostic (as that word is normally understood) to have a spiritual experience, or an experience of the numinous,** or of the holy** (as those words are normally understood): he or she could even go on having them, and remain agnostic about how they came. If Atheist means simply someone who does not believe in the God of any particular "religion" I suspect the same is true there. If Atheist means someone who does not believe in the mystical, the numinous,** the spiritual (however defined), the holy,** then while there is no doubt logically that such persons can have a mystical experience, spiritual experience, even an experience of the numinous,** it's not entirely sure how they will deal with it successfully as part of their recovery if they don't believe it can have taken place. The "Atheist" Jim B. (sober 1938 to death in 1974 -- "The Vicious Cycle") seems to have had such an experience, reading a passage in a Gideon Bible to the effect that the kingdom of god is within you -- but he then went on to preach the insight from that experience. At one point Bill says that -- was it Hindu or Buddhist priests? -- these priests simply would have substituted "Good" for "God" -- but while I suspect that is encouraging for A.A. in a considerably non-Christian world, I suppose no one would claim that Hindus or Buddhists are Atheists -- however much the Hindus in particular might be polytheists. But how will any arms of AA decide the spiritual value of the experiences and beliefs of those with different, unorthodox, or (not perhaps the best choice of word) Atheistic spiritualities? In any case, there's some strength to the view that matters of religion are outside issues. I don't say work shouldn't be done on this -- personally I think it should -- but in Conference-approved literature? The "spiritual"/"religious" distinction is not unlike the "religious/Gospel" temperance distinction of Washingtonian days -- and it confused people then. As with much history, he who runs may read -- and beyond this, I'm not sure this is truly an AAHL issue. - - - - **THE HOLY, THE NUMINOUS, COSMIC CONSCIOUSNESS From: Glenn C. (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) See the discussion between the great scientist Albert Einstein on cosmic religious feeling and the great theologian Paul Tillich (a colleague of Reinhold Niebuhr at Union Theological Seminary) on the holy and the numinous: http://hindsfoot.org/pers2.pdf -- pp. 69-86 See the formative book by Richard Maurice Bucke, "Cosmic Consciousness: A Study in the Evolution of the Human Mind." MEL BARGER Also see Mel B's article on Cosmic Consciousness and Bill W. in the May 1976 Grapevine at http://silkworth.net/melb/cosmic.html Also Mel B's book "My Search for Bill W.," page 24: <> THE GREAT GERMAN PHILOSOPHER AND THEOLOGIAN RUDOLF OTTO on the holy and the numinous: http://hindsfoot.org/g04sacr.pdf http://hindsfoot.org/g05myst.pdf As Mel B. has noted, it is necessary to read about Bucke and William James (and also, as I would point out, Rudolf Otto, Albert Einstein, and Paul Tillich) in order to understand the thought context in which the Big Book was written. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7339. . . . . . . . . . . . Travis - Language of the Heart - Traditionalist AA vs. GSO AA From: From: "Paul . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/26/2011 2:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII TRYSH TRAVIS: Language of the Heart (University of North Carolina Press, 2009) from: "Paul" (spectrumptg at yahoo.com) _____________________________________________ TRYSH TRAVIS: "TRADITIONALIST AA" vs. "RECOVERY-INFUSED POPULAR CULTURE" Trysh Travis' Language of the Heart is worthy if just for this: "Traditionalist AA" along with "recovery-infused popular culture," although inadequate, are good attempts at topographic constructs, even though they're (provisionally) 2D. I think that (an) AA history can be adequately mapped, and should be mapped globally, with certain marginal restrictions, as E. Kurtz has attempted, rather nobly, placing it in the context of the history of religious ideas, as it must, up to and including the present cultic milieu. If you ask me, which you didn't, the dynamics of (a cultural) history are what makes for interest, and I suppose synchronicity is a kind of guidepost, tho in-and-of-itself synchronicity is somewhat static. I hope nobody takes offense at overstating the obvious, and I think the premise(s) of this forum make(s) it clear, that the perspective that AA is not a "thing," but rather an "entity" or more properly a fellowship, where fellowship is more often a verb, and "greater than the sum of its parts"; or that AA is a "fluid collection of fellows (guys and gals) and fellowships that can never be apprised as a monolithic entity" is one of the preferred historical perspectives. On that count, I think that the ("constituent") Pre-AA History Book 1926-35 should prove valuable to most anybody curious about AA history in the broad sense. I'm especially interested in the recent Roland Hazard report and know I'll examine at least that segment carefully. I believe E. Kurtz called into question Roland's stay in Vienna; I also remember seeing somewhere more recent research into Jung's relation to Hazard as physician. "Some of my colleagues in religious studies have complained of a sense of boredom. They tell me that nothing new has been said in their sub-discipline in recent years, even recent decades. We in New Religions Studies have no such problem. We have a monstrous landscape of unploughed pasture and new land coming into view with each acre that is cultivated. We can be secure in one fact, we will not run out of topics for our research in the lifetime of any of us here." (The Rise of the Study of New Religions, 1999) -J. Gordon Melton Whether one likes it or not, I believe that AA (now as a phenomenon or movement) has shaped and is still shaping the "monstrous landscape of unploughed pasture" Melton speaks about. Has ANYONE made a thorough scholarly study of AA vernacular? Haven't academics effectively restricted themselves to print culture? Even Kurtz' book ignores "There is a God and you're not him!" from which, it could be casually contended, even his very book title Not-God might derive. Surely I'm not the first to notice? Ernie, they actually SAY that in meetings: "There is a God, and you're not him!" {Not you, Ernie, they mean "you" in the second person singular, Lol!} _____________________________________________ TRYSH TRAVIS: "TRADITIONALIST AA" vs. "GSO AA" PS: I've been wanting to "jump in" since I saw Trysh Travis' relatively new book was featured here by Glenn Chesnut. This seemed the place to do so. In primary terms, a semi-incomplete quasi-static view of AA (already) exists. So far, it's essentially a linear algebra (of multiple trajectories - "Traditionalist" and "GSO" for lack of better delineation). My estimate is that a so-called tensor analysis (matrix entries are vector rather than scalor) where "relativistic" components are "recovery-infused pop cultural" for instance a la Trysh Travis. I had to think about this. "Traditionalist" AA may complain of the reverse: an "infusion" of A Course In Miracles &tc, but I'm not sure anyone has adequately diagnosed it. In addition to Mr. Stonebraker, thanks again to Glenn Chesnut for drawing attention to the esteemed Professor Travis' book around which a fairly eerie silence seems to loom thus far. [Kind of like Charlie Sheen, Dr. Drew, and Jane Valez-Mitchel.] I take (tongue in cheek) exception to that, beings (now in seriousness) her's is the first major scholarly "AA focused history/culture book" since Kurtz? Or am I missing something? It's quite possible. Nevertheless, I'm not much interested in going over a lot of old ground, and I myself would try to avoid any of that. My apologies in advance if I've done any of that. I've read few posts here, but I've used the internal "search" feature to try to avoid redundancy. Best, Paul IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7340. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics From: intuited . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2011 10:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The AA Grapevine has published two books of stories, Spiritual Awakenings (2003) and Spiritual Awakenings II (2010) that cover a broad array of perceptions and experiences of the journey in sobriety. It includes a variety of religious and non-religious perspectives. There is a little bit for everyone, in any state of questioning. I was very inspired by these books. I wish they were spoken of more in the program. We have so much literature that most meetings only carry the very basics. I have increasingly found that the "concept of God" is often reductionistic, not used in the historical evolution of the word, misinterpreted, and just not useful. So more and more I just use the word "Power." It certainly helps me with my understanding of quantum physics, photon light, space between particles, entanglement theory, etc. Many of us in our town were struggling with this problem of the newcomer hearing the "God-talk" and being confused. So we started a speaker/discussion meeting called "Journey of the Heart" and have several sentences in our format emphasizing the acceptance of all paths, encouraging unity in diversity. Its amazing how many members don't have a traditional concept of God as their greater power. And the way they experience this "knowing" is very unique. In fact, some describe this knowing as their intuition. Our last speaker described it as a wind blowing through him when he did the 6th and 7th. I think what Gerry from New Orleans said is right on: "Many believe that the traditional notion of "God" does not really exist, and understand that the word is simply a metaphor or symbol of the indefinable and unknown Power which is the source of all that exists, especially love, beauty, truth, justice, compassion and similar qualities." Amelia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7341. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Grapevine Play: Sybil, Irma Livoni, Frank, Cliff, and Mort From: jaxena77 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2011 2:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The AA historical play "In Our Own Words," written using the actual words of the early AA figures, will be performed in Los Angeles on June 25th, 2011, see http://icypaahost.org/page7.php We are also doing a benefit performance of the play in Sonoma County (in connection with the Sonoma County Intergroup Fellowship) on Saturday, June 18, 2011 at the Veterans Memorial Hall in Sebastopol see http://www.brownpapertickets.com/event/172646 Thank you to everyone who has helped us. It has really been appreciated! Jackie B San Francisco, California IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7342. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcohol From: Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2011 7:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Laurie Andrews, John Barton, and Les Cole - - - - From: Laurie Andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) None of this would matter if there were a universal consensus that alcoholism IS a disease; but there isn't, so AA as such can have no opinion on this controversial outside issue. Mike P. calls in aid Dr Silkworth as referring to alcoholism as a disease. Well, he might have done elsewhere, but he certainly did not in his foreword to the Big Book (The Doctor's Opinion - which the compilers refer to as "the medical estimate of the plan of recovery"), viz: "We doctors have realized for a long time that some form of moral psychology was of urgent importance to alcoholics but its application presented difficulties BEYOND OUR CONCEPTION. WHAT WITH OUR ULTRA-MODERN STANDARDS, OUR SCIENTIFIC APPROACH TO EVERYTHING, WE ARE PERHAPS NOT WELL EQUIPPED TO APPLY THE POWERS OF GOOD THAT LIE OUTSIDE OUR SYNTHETIC KNOWLEDGE (emphasis added) ... We believe ... that the action of alcohol on (these) chronic alcoholics IS A MANIFESTATION OF AN ALLERGY..." (Is the allergy hay fever a disease?) He goes on to say that although "recoveries resulting from psychiatric effort (is) considerable ... many types do not respond to the ordinary psychological approach .. in nearly all cases their ideals must be grounded in a power greater than themselves ... unless this person can experience an entire psychic change there is very little hope of his recovery". CF "three pertinent ideas": (a) that we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives; (b) that probably no human power (including medical science working in a disease paradigm) could have relieved our alcoholism; (c) that God could and would if he were sought. (Jung came to a similar conclusion in his advice to Rowland H. He did not tell Rowland to seek medical help but to associate himself with a religious fellowship). Dr Silkworth describes himself as "Medical Director of one of the oldest hospitals in the country treating alcohol and drug addiction"; i.e. an authority on alcoholism. Dr Bob, who told Bill D. "you have a disease", was a proctologist. Now haemorrhoids, like a broken leg, can be extremely painful and depressing - but they are not a disease! To argue that addiction, affliction, sickness, illness, malady, disease are all the same is fallacious. ("Someone with a disease is sick; an alcoholic is sick; therefore alcoholics have a disease"). If the different words were exact and precise synonyms, all with the same meaning, there would be no need for their nuanced subtleties. When Bill was asked directly (see earlier postings): "Did you intend to make any difference between sickness and disease?" He replied, "We AA's have never called alcoholism a disease..." What could be clearer? In the original working manuscript of the Big Book, reproduced in "The Book That Started It All" (Hazelden, 2010), alterations in the original text show the nascent fellowship bending over backward not to claim medical expertise and to stay at arm's length from the professionals. E.g. Commenting on changes to the manuscript page 12, paragraph 6, lines 1-4, the anonymous Hazelden authors observe: "In spite of the truth that physicians and psychiatrists were not able to bring about sustained solutions with alcoholics, the editors wisely removed words that could imply time wasted or never making headway with an alcoholic. This is a fine line because simultaneously it seems they want the alcoholic reader to recognise that this seemingly hopeless state of mind and body is beyond human aid - including the medical profession..." (TBTSIA, op cit page 198). Manuscript page 12, para 7, lines 1-4: "But the ex-alcoholic who has found this solution, who is properly armed with certain medical information (changed to, "the facts about himself") ..." Hazelden comment: Margin notes on top of page and right-side of page related to these edits: "Doctors are a jealous lot and don't like this. I have to ask WHAT MEDICAL INFORMATION? Why not cut?" (TBTSIA ibid p199). Manuscript page 15, para 4, line 3: Hazelden: This edit demonstrates sensitivity in not making a statement that would likely trigger the inconsistency between a psychiatric model that at this point would not embrace the knowledge of the illness of the mind/mental obsession. Manuscript page 45, para 1, line 5: "Remember they are fatally (changed to "very") ill." Hazelden: The margin note tied to the word "fatally" is "Doctors will shoot." This edit represents the fine-tooth comb used throughout the manuscript to have the utmosty sensitivity to any language that could possibly alienate the medical profession (TBTSIA ibib p200). Alas, the Hazelden authors cannot avoid falling into the same trap. On page 201 in a section headed "Alcoholism as a disease of the mind and body" they discuss The Doctor's Opinion and note "... these founding aspects of the disease of alcoholism, initially revealed to Bill W by Dr Silkworth in 1933..." They take it for granted that alcoholism is a disease, which is perhaps not surprising given that the Hazelden organisation is part of the treatment "industry", so not entirely disinterested. Medical insurers would fund treatment for a disease - but almost certainly not for a spiritual awakening! Apropos TBTSIA, Bill Dotson's story does not appear in the original manuscript. Dr Bob's story (headed "The Doctor's Nightmare") is followed by "The Unbeliever". The last personal story ("Smile With Me, At Me") runs from pp152-5. On the next page there is a list of further stories: 156-9: Barber - A Close Shave; 158-160 Hunt - "Intellectual Agnostic". 161-7: Furlong(?) - "Another Prodigal Story". 168-71: Stanley - The Car Smashed. 172-5: Hindsight - Williams (?). 176-8: Maher(?) - On His Way. 179-80: the Alcoholic's Wife - An alcoholic's wife. 181-6: Campbell - An Artist's Concept. 187-90: Tate - The Rolling Stone. 191-6: California(n) Lone (indecipherable). - - - - From: John Barton (jax760 at yahoo.com) For historical accuracy I would offer the following: As I much as I love the Big Book there are any number of papers and books that are far more "definitive" regarding "alcoholism" and what it is or isn't. I recently mentioned background material from Kurtz and White both of whom refer back to Jellinek as the most "definitive" work to date. AA as a whole has or should not have any opinion on the definition of alcoholism (since we/they are drunks and not Doctors or Medical Scientists) and having an opinion on a controversial subject that is outside the realm of their primary purpose will bring controversy. Bill was careful and certainly correct not to get involved in any debate regarding what alcoholism is or isn't. Somebody mentioned Bill's talk in 1960 to the NCCA which is about as "definitive" as you can get regarding Bill's and AA's position on the matter, straight from the horse's mouth. As AA historians and history lovers we might do well to follow AA's lead and not debate the concept, but certainly document the history and the conclusions of the Medical Societies and the experts who have spent years researching the topic. Some other points to be considered from this post from a "historical accuracy" perspective: The American Medical Association was not an early supporter of either AA or a disease concept. They pretty much trashed the Big Book when it came out and again if I'm not mistaken they resisted acknowledging alcoholism officially as a "disease" until the late sixties or early seventies. Tiebout made several statements in the 50s expressing his concern regarding the "disease" classification and was actually worried that the the whole disease camp was way out on a limb just waiting to be chopped off because they all had nothing scientific or conclusive in the way of empirical evidence to back up the definition of alcoholism as a disease. Dr Bob told Bill that the metaphor of "disease" was the only way to convey the hopelesness of the situation to the newcomer. Today, unfortunately, the "conceptual" or "operational" meaning of "disease" is so broad and loosely applied by just about anyone with a "credential", or any organization, wherever it makes sense often in a social context, or is PC to do so, that is has long lost any real "definitive" medical value and truly is reduced to just a metaphor. Today anything that causes us dis-ease or to be in a state "without ease" is likely to be called (and by word orgin and definition, correctly so) a "disease" Lastly, while I don't question Bill, Hank's overall good or altruistic intentions, to say with all authority that neither of them were in it for the money is a long shot. They both (Bill and Hank) wanted to make money. Bob was about to lose his house (early 1938) and was desperate for money and $3,000 of the Rockefellar money paid off his mortgage.There were any number of shady happenings with the book and the stock of Works Publishing. Clarence, Henrietta and others had grave misgivings about Bill's intentions with money and his solicitations. The dealings with Rockefellers, soliciting money with the stated intention of funding operations, money not paid back to various stock and stake holders all created problems and friction. Wally Von Arx threatened to sue Bill and Hank if they didn''t pay back money owed to him. Hank at one point, after he had relapsed, wrote the trustees and alluded to certain embarrasing money problems that might soon come to light and suggested a healthy commission on any money a good fund raiser (perhaps such as himself) might bring in might be a good way to proceed to put the whole deal on a "business basis," While Bill would give you the coat off his back I believe he did hope to be financially "restored" through the movement and said so on more than one occasion though not necessarily in so many words. Don't forget he signed a royaly agreement with the trustess not long after agreeing with Hank that only Bob would receive royalties. He went back on that agreement. Bill had Bob endorsing his early royalty checks back to Bill as Bob didn't really want the money and Bill was quite hard up for dough. Lots of "stuff" behind the scenes not all of it "ethical" or pure in motive and I'm quite sure that one day more will be revealed out of the GSO archives and the files that have not been made available to researchers.I seem to recall reading but can not quote the source at the moment that it was Father Dowling who lowered the boom on Bill and told him that this (profiting on AA) could never happen and that was quite a let down for Bill. Money issues and accusations regarding Bill's motives coming from some of his "friends and supporters" certainly contributed to Bill sinking back into depression in the early forties. Hope I haven't offended anyone! God Bless John B. - - - - From: LES COLE (elsietwo at msn.com) Hi All: Whatever the source of definitions, various uses over time, etc...... it seems to me that the "practical" word is "illness"! A "disease" is a communicatable condition...like measles. An "illness" refers to something that one person has. In common usage, an illness is not "catchable"! Les Colorado Springs, CO IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7343. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: atheists and agnostics, meaning of the term religion From: Ben Hammond . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2011 10:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Ben Hammond, Laurie Andrews, Robert Stonebraker, Dougbert, Cliff Bishop, Baileygc23, Larry Tooley (and Amelia) - - - - From: Ben Hammond (mlb9292 at gmail.com) Thanks Amelia for this post.** I sent it out to my History Lovers maillist. I met you in San Antonio ... God Bless You ... Old Ben Ben & Mary Lynn Hammond 5126 S. St. Louis Av Tulsa, Oklahoma 74105 918 313 4059 - - - - Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics From: Laurie Andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) CF William James (The Varieties of Religious Experience, Lecture 20, Conclusions): "Taking creeds and faith states together, as forming 'religions', and treating these as purely subjective phenomena, without regard to the question of their 'truth', we are obliged, on account of their extraordinary influence upon action and endurance, to class them amongst the most important biological functions of mankind. Their stimulant and anaesthetic effect is so great that Professor Leuba, in a recent article, goes so far as to say that so long as men can USE their God, they care very little who he is, or even whether he is at all. 'The truth of the matter can be put,' says Leuba, 'in this way; God is not known, he is not understood; he is used ... sometimes as moral support, sometimes as friend, sometimes as an object of love. If he proves himself useful, the religious consciousness asks no more than that. Does God really exist? How does he exist? What is he? are so many irrelevant questions. Not God, but life, more life, a larger, richer, more satisfying life, is, in the last analysis, the end of religion. The love of life, at any and every level of development, is the religious impulse. At this purely subjective rating, therefore, Religion must be considered vindicated in a certain way from the attacks of her critics. It would seem that she cannot be a mere anachronism and survival, but must exert a permanent function, whether she be with or without intellectual content, and whether, if she have any, it be true or false." The "stimulant and anaesthetic effect" of religion echo Jung in his letter to Bill W: "His (Rowland H's) craving for alcohol (stimulant and anaesthetic) was the equivalent, on a low level, of the spiritual thirst of our being for wholeness, expressed in medieval language: the union with God." - - - - From: "Robert Stonebraker" Historically speaking, in what context does the BB use term religion? A quote from Paul's recent message about Dr. Carl Jung: "Anyhow, historically speaking - if that's the terminology - at some point in history it doesn't seem to have mattered much, unless "organized religion" is connoted to mean "religion." I am also not sure what conceptual parameters Dr. Jung used to envelope his writings on religion. This however, opens another subject: What does the Big Book mean when it expresses religion? I would seem the writers of the Big Book were very open in their references to the term "religion." Page 87 encourages us to see where "religious people are right." The sentence above tells that we are pointed toward several diverse religious organizations: "Suggestions about these may be obtained from ones priest, minister or rabbi." . . . and on page xx we find: ". . . we include Catholics, Protestants, Hindus, and a sprinkling of Moslems and Buddhists." Interestingly, the writers of the Big Book were hesitant to point or use phrases that would associate AA with the Oxford Group from which they sprung. In the 'Original Working Manuscript' there is to be found hand written phrases such as: "This is absolutely Too Groupy." (ms page 43). Also to be found are scribbled warnings such as "Should be studied from the mold angle" (ms page 43), which pertains to not getting caught in the mold of the Oxford Group teaching. So, the point I mean to empathize here is that the writers of the Big Book welcomed all religious denominations, but were careful not to exclaim a preference, e.g., one above the other. Bob S. P.S. I find it of more than passing interest that the word 'God' is mentioned 242 times in the third edition of the Big Book. (A Concordance to Alcoholics Anonymous, by Steven and Francis Poe - 1990) - - - - From: Dougbert (dougbert8 at yahoo.com) Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics Jared and Glenn, Richard Peabody was a success by any metric used in the recovery industry. I strongly suggest rereading his message of empowerment and self-control. His approach is more aligned to Buddhism than to Christianity. Bill W. did a lot of plagiarizing when he attempted to put a Christian spin on self discipline. Richard Peabody, Peabody Movement-1930's wrote a book called Common Sense Of Drinking stressed physical condition (medical) surrender, deflation at depth removal of doubts and anxieties control of thoughts control of will power self-expression. An individual becomes an alcoholic for three main reasons: 1. As a result of inheritance. He possesses a nervous system which is non-resistant to alcohol. (In no sense is a direct craving transmitted from parent to offspring.) 2. By reason of his early environment. Through the ignorance of his parents or from their own nervous constitution, the alcoholic was either spoiled or neglected. He was not brought up to face the world courageously. He is lacking in self-reliance, no matter how physically brave he may be or how bold he may appear on the surface. Psychologically, he is unable to stand on his own two feet. As a result of this, he unconsciously craves a stimulant-narcotic. 3. Because of the effects of his later environment. That is to say, school, college, economic and social competition, marriage, and, for one generation at least, the World War. Richard R. Peabody, The Common Sense of Drinking, 1930, pp. 185-186 From History of the big book by Donald B As Fate would have it, Bill trained at the Officers Training Camp at Plattsburgh, New York, during the Summer of 1917, and was commissioned a Second Lieutenant in the Coastal Artillery. During the Summer, Richard Rodgers Peabody trained there and was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant in the Artillery. Here are a few phrases from Peabody's aforementioned book: Half measures were of no avail... p.99; Once a drunkard always a drunkard... p.82; The story of the retired businessman... p.123 Copyright 1930, 1931, By Richard R. Peabody. Published April, 1931. The Atlantic Monthly Press Books Are Published by Little, Brown, And Company In Association With The Atlantic Monthly Company. Book is dedicated to: Courtenay Baylor. 191 pages. Doug - - - - From: CBBB164@AOL.COM (CBBB164 at AOL.COM) Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics While I am a believer, I respect Doug's point. In my years in Alcoholics Anonymous, I have not yet seen a chronic alcoholic say I came to A.A. to find God. Many of us have had more than enough invitations, suggestions and directions from well meaning people that we need to find God before we had the opportunity to learn there is a way to live a sober and purposeful life. Just remember Bill's reaction when his ole drinking buddy said, "I've got religion." Bill went to work on his 2 quarts of Bathtub Gin. Just a thought. We recover by the Steps we take, not the meetings we make! IN GOD WE TRUST In God's love and service, Cliff Bishop 214-350-1190 http://www.ppgaadallas.org/ - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics AA says, "Surely there is none which more jealously guards the individual's right to think, talk, and act as he wishes." Carl Jung did come down on group thinking, and a couple of his opinions have been posted on the history lovers. - - - - From: "Larry Tooley" (wa9guu at charter.net) Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics My sponsor knew an atheist who said he used the group as a higher power. Also heard around the tables if you don't find something around the 7th or 8th step you will go out drinking again. That means church or Spiritual belief. ________________________________________ **Original message from Amelia (intuited at earthlink.net) > The AA Grapevine has published two books of stories, Spiritual Awakenings > (2003) and Spiritual Awakenings II (2010) that cover a broad array of > perceptions and experiences of the journey in sobriety. It includes a > variety of religious and non-religious perspectives. There is a little bit > for everyone, in any state of questioning. I was very inspired by these > books. I wish they were spoken of more in the program. We have so much > literature that most meetings only carry the very basics. I have > increasingly found that the "concept of God" is often reductionistic, not > used in the historical evolution of the word, misinterpreted, and just not > useful. So more and more I just use the word "Power." It certainly helps me > with my understanding of quantum physics, photon light, space between > particles, entanglement theory, etc. > > Many of us in our town were struggling with this problem of the newcomer > hearing the "God-talk" and being confused. So we started a > speaker/discussion meeting called "Journey of the Heart" and have several > sentences in our format emphasizing the acceptance of all paths, encouraging > unity in diversity. Its amazing how many members don't have a traditional > concept of God as their greater power. And the way they experience this > "knowing" is very unique. In fact, some describe this knowing as their > intuition. Our last speaker described it as a wind blowing through him when > he did the 6th and 7th. > > I think what Gerry from New Orleans said is right on: "Many believe that > the traditional notion of "God" does not really exist, and understand that > the word is simply a metaphor or symbol of the indefinable and unknown Power > which is the source of all that exists, especially love, beauty, truth, > justice, compassion and similar qualities." > > Amelia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7344. . . . . . . . . . . . Buddhists are not atheists but non-theists From: Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/29/2011 4:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "I suppose no one would claim that ... Buddhists are Atheists." -- a statement in message #7338 from "J. Lobdell" jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) Jared said that "No one would claim that ... Buddhists are atheists." But to Buddhists, belief in God is irrelevant, as exemplified in the famous story about the man struck by a poisoned arrow. He does not speculate on the identity of the archer or the nature of the poison - he pulls the arrow out! Buddhism is not about theology, but living rightly (CF "The spiritual life is not a theory, we have to live it"). "A minister in Thailand wrote, 'We took AA's 12 Steps to the largest Buddhist monastery in this province, and the head priest said, 'Why, these Steps are fine! For us as Buddhists, it might be slightly more acceptable if you had inserted the word "good" in your Steps instead of "God". Nevertheless, you say that it it is God as you understand Him, and that must certainly include the good. Yes, AA's 12 Steps will surely be accepted by Buddhists around here." (AA Comes of Age, page 81) "... we question very much whether our Buddhist members in Japan would ever have joined this Society had AA stamped itself a strictly Christian movement..." (Letter 1954, As Bill Sees It, page 34) "By personal religious affiliation, we include Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Hindus, and a sprinkling of Moslems and Buddhists..." (Big Book, 2nd edition foreword, 1955). - - - - From G.C. the moderator: the technical term for this kind of position, held by some Buddhist groups, is "non-theism." Zen Buddhism is a well known form of Buddhism which holds this position. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7345. . . . . . . . . . . . Earl T. (Chicago) and Third Tradition: Short and Long Form From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2011 11:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Joanna in Area 10 Colorado, This unedited excerpt of research is sourced from the Chicago Area 19 Archives, the AA Archives at the General Service Office, and the Archives at the Stepping Stones Foundation, and was written as part of a 'carry-along' given to Archives Room attendees at an Illinois State AA Conference in 2002. Bear with me about the background and quick development of the Short Form of Tradition Three (as well as the other eleven); your accurate answer is here and has much to do with Earl T. of Chicago: "Earl T. got sober in 1937 under the sponsorship of Dr. Bob after visits with his family in the Akron area, and it was two years before there were other new members to hold the first Illinois AA meeting. Bill, very close to Dr. Bob and the Akron Group, may have known about Earl but most likely didn't meet him until the 1940 Chicago visit. Friends by letter and telephone from the start, Bill stayed with Earl and his wife Katie during that first 1940 winter trip. And, at every Illinois visit during the 1940s, Bill and Lois (when she accompanied him) stayed with them. Lois Wilson's handwritten desk telephone book had Earl and Katie's Illinois numbers for every year's new book beginning with her 1940 entry. The two families kept in touch with each other. The favor was returned as early as 1946 when Earl visited New York and stayed at Bill and Lois' Stepping Stones home north of Manhattan. Bill also trusted Earl enough to ask him to report to the Alcoholic Foundation Board meetings in 1947, covering for Bill who was away on a trip, and he nominated Earl to the AF Board as an AA Trustee in 1949, replacing Dr. Bob, who had lost his dear Anne and faced his own final fight of cancer. Dozens of letters between the two friends, Bill and Earl, are in the files of the GSO Archives, and the correspondence shows a strong bond of caring, insights to early AA life, and the enthusiasm for AA service growth. Nell Wing, Bill's long-term secretary and AA's first Archivist at the General Service Office, recalled that our Short Form of the Twelve Traditions is directly attributed to Earl's friendly suggestions to Bill." Bill would later speak (I can't remember where but I've read a transcript) about a brief 1949 collaboration with his good friend Earl on the Traditions, when Earl convinced Bill that "most AAs would not stand still for a long form but might sit still long enough to understand a short one" or a phrase very close to that. There may be further sources in AA Comes of Age or Pass It On, but I have found that "directly attributed to Earl's friendly suggestions" is the honest truth of how and why the Short Form came about: out of friendship, insight, and with simplicity in mind. Hope this snippet of archival fact helps your article. Yours in fellowship, Rick T., Illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7346. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Third Tradition: Short Form and Long Form From: Sober186@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2011 8:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If one wants to see some well researched information about the long and short form of the traditions what was the actual language approved at the big meeting in Cleveland and more, one need look no further than post #5520 on this group. I will quote a small portion from that post. (yhe Reference to LOH means the statement is contained in the publication Language Of The Heart.) "Contrary to popular belief, the short form of the Traditions were not approved at the 1950 Convention, Bill W did not recite either the short or the long form of the Traditions to the attendees. Instead, he paraphrased and summarized a variation of the Traditions that is preserved in LOH 121. This is what Bill W read and was approved: "That, touching all matters affecting AA unity, our common welfare should come first; that AA has no human authority - only God as he may speak in our Group Conscience; that our leaders are but trusted servants, they do not govern; that any alcoholic may become an AA member if he says so - we exclude no one; that every AA Group may manage its own affairs as it likes, provided surrounding groups are not harmed thereby; that we AAs have but a single aim, the carrying of our message to the alcoholic who still suffers; that in consequence we cannot finance, endorse or otherwise lend the name 'Alcoholics Anonymous' to any other enterprise, however worthy; that AA, as such, ought to remain poor, lest problems of property, management and money divert us from our sole aim; that we ought to be self-supporting, gladly paying our small expenses ourselves; that AA should remain forever non-professional, ordinary 12th Step work never to be paid for; that, as a Fellowship, we should never be organized but may nevertheless create responsible Service Boards or Committees to insure us better propagation and sponsorship and that these agencies may engage fulltime workers for special tasks; that our public relations ought to proceed upon the principle of attraction rather than promotion, it being better to let our friends recommend us; that personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and pictures ought to be strictly maintained as our best protection, against the temptations of power or personal ambition; and finally, that anonymity before the general public is the spiritual key to all our Traditions, ever reminding us we are always to place principles before personalities, that we are actually to practice a genuine humility. This to the end that our great blessings may never spoil us; that we shall forever live in thankful contemplation of Him who presides over us all." Following Bill's summation, the attendees unanimously approved the Traditions by standing vote. Notably missing from what Bill recited to the attendees were the principles in Tradition 10 of AA having no opinion on outside issues and not drawing the AA name into public controversy. Nevertheless, the attendees unanimously approved what Bill W presented. (AACOA 43, PIO 338, LOH 117-124) As an aside, I have read elsewhere, Dr. Bob, who was near death left for the hotel and home after his short speech. Dr. bob was not particularly in favor of the fellowship adopting any traditions. -- Bill, let's not screw this thing up. keep it simple.-- or words close to that. However, I don't believe he was there when the standing vote was taken, so we will probably never know how he resolved what he saw as a conflict. Jim L. Central Ohio IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7347. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Carl Jung - spiritual vs. religious, and syncronicity From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2011 8:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Paul gets into some interesting and complex issues here. There is too much to respond in one post, but I'd like to try to approach some of the issues based on the letters and manuscripts I've seen. Jung wrote an enormous amount of material, and although I've read some of I am far below the level of expert. Paul and I would probably agree on the value of the synchronicity concept. I don't know how important it actually was to Jung, and certainly the rest of his work does not rise and fall on the value of that one idea. The beginnings of AA seem to me to have involved multiple cultural, medical and religious changes taking place at the time. "Overdetermination" might even be a better interpretation than synchronicity. I do believe that Jung identified two different levels of spiritual or religious development. For people who are capable of the most demanding approach, spiritual development or individuation takes a lifetime of involvement with analysis, study, introspection and interaction with similarly enlightened people. When Jung said nice things about religion, it was generally in reference to the "common" sort of person, of whom no more could really be expected. Initially, Jung saw Rowland Hazard as the kind of person who is highly intelligent and capable of maximal insight. The demands of Jungian-style spirituality are such that few can aspire to them. Later, Jung realized that the alcoholism and general personality structure were so problematic that the best Rowland could hope for would be stability based on close association with a fellowship of some kind. That would have been a serious demotion, in Jung's eyes, but preferable to slow death by alcohol. As for the Richard Noll books, they are entertaining but I really don't think anyone takes them terribly seriously. Jung was certainly a guru-type figure to his disciples. However, the idea that he had ambitions to establish some arcane and persistent cult, Aryan or otherwise, is silly. Cora IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7348. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Paul on Travis - Language of the Heart - Traditionalist AA vs. GSO AA From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/26/2011 6:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Paul (and others), I read but rarely jump into this list's discussions because it really is time for someone to produce a comprehensive history of AA that will replace *Not-God* as sort of a standard. As noted recently by Paul, my book -- which began as a doctoral dissertation -- concentrated on the place of AA in the ongoing history of "religious ideas" broadly understood. We need to learn more about the economic and sociological aspects of AA, to mention but two other areas that cry out for investigation. And there are errors in *Not-God* uncovered by later research, for example about Roland Hazard and Dr. Carl Jung. I have met one person, Kevin Hanlon, who the last I knew was working on a film about AA, who struck me as having the interest and talent and resources to produce such a work. Sadly, over the years this field has lost such promising researchers as Bill Pittman and Merton Minter. Others, such as Mitchell K., have been forced by circumstances to work on other projects, such as making a living. Also, too many academics have had to drop promising projects because the very richness of the resources means those projects would take more than the available time in this era of "publish or perish." [For any as yet unaware, AA's NY GSO archives are in the process of being digitized.] Still others, for example the indefatigable Bill White, have been spread thin by their generous commitment to serve primarily the treatment constituency. Especially, however, at this time when pressure again grows to interpret AA through a narrow lens such as that of one type of Evangelical Christianity or shards of the "mind-cure" movement that flourished in late 19th-century America, there is a very real need for a carefully comprehensive retelling of the AA story, researched according to historical standards. As one word of encouragement more than caution, I close with words from Hannah Arendt's study of *The Human Condition*: Action reveals itself fully only to the storyteller, that is, to the backward glance of the historian, who indeed always knows better what it was all about than the participants. All accounts told by the actors themselves, though they may in rare cases give an entirely trustworthy statement of intentions, aims, and motives, become mere useful source material in the historian's hands and can never match his story in significance and truthfulness. What the storyteller narrates must necessarily be hidden from the actor himself, at least as long as he is in the act or caught in its consequences, because to him the meaningfulness of his act is not in the story that follows. Even though stories are the inevitable results of action, it is not the actor but the storyteller who preceives and "makes" the story. Respectfully, and also hopefully, ernie kurtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7349. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Travis - Language of the Heart - Traditionalist AA vs. GSO AA From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2011 9:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On the matter of the "Messengers to Ebby" (Rowland-III, Shep, Cebe) see material seriatim in CULTURE ALCOHOL & SOCIETY QUARTERLY [CASQ] Newsletter of the Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown, on the Brown Library website, especially Volumes 2(1) through 4(4), with 4(5) and following in preparation. There is also a note (pp. 15-18) on Trysh's book in the form of an interview between the CASQ editor and the forty-year-sober alcoholic Jane S (author of Q & A: Alcoholism and Sobriety**) in CASQ 4(3) that may be of interest. Both the CASQ editor and Trysh have served as Kirk Fellows at Brown, and Jane S has also been involved with the Kirk program. __________________________________________ **Jane S., Q & A: Alcoholism and Sobriety http://hindsfoot.org/kqa1.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7350. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Travis - Language of the Heart - Traditionalist AA vs. GSO AA From: pvttimt@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2011 12:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "My estimate is that a so-called tensor analysis (matrix entries are vector rather than scalor) where "relativistic" components re 'recovery-infused pop cultural' for instance a la Trysh Travis." At the risk of being anti-intellectual ... WHAT?? - - - - Sentence quoted from message #7339 from "Paul" (spectrumptg at yahoo.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7339 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7351. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Carl Jung - spiritual vs. religious, and syncronicity From: awuh1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/26/2011 9:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I must admit to a sensing a certain bias in the posting Carl Jung - spiritual vs. religious, and synchronicity. At the time of the senders response to Mr. Stonebreakes "A Pre-AA History Book, A Study of Synchronic Events", he admits to finishing neither that work nor the seminal work by Carl Jung "Synchronicity, An Acasual Connecting Principle". At the same time he states that he "read Noll's book(s) more carefully". The poster refers to Noll's book, "The Jung Cult: Origins of a Charismatic Movement", as "scholarly research" and offers up support for this proposition via the Princeton University Press nomination of it for an award (they are, not coincidentally, the publishers of the book, and, it did not get the award). The reviews of the book were far from universally positive. In the Journal, "Bulletin of the History of Medicine" Volume 70, Number 3, Fall 1996 they write, "In the guise of a scholarly text on the history of science, Richard Noll has written a polemic in which he makes unfounded speculations about Jung's personal and professional life. Specifically, he accuses Jung of having established a neopagan religious sect, a so-called Jung Cult. As evidence for this accusation, he offers his own questionable interpretations of Jung's writings ... " Personally I thought that this review of Noll's book was kind, given some of the propositions put forth in his "research". With regard to spiritual vs. religious ... I think the poster is correct, most of those familiar with AA history regard it as both old hat, AND splitting hairs. Regards, Tom ________________________________________ A response to Message #7334 from "Paul" (spectrumptg at yahoo.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7334 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7352. . . . . . . . . . . . Brooklyn meeting with lineage back to Bill''s house? From: Tim Ruckle . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2011 9:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am staying in Brooklyn and have heard that there is an AA meeting here that has a lineage going back to the meetings Bill held in his house. Is this true? If so, where and when are the meetings? Thanks! Tim R IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7353. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Travis - Language of the Heart - Traditionalist AA vs. GSO AA From: Paul . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2011 9:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I received a private correspondence about this from an AAHistoryLovers group member which made me realize some things might have been better posed as questions: Was not "There is a God, and you're not Him!" fairly broad (almost universal by some standards) AA vernacular by the time Kurtz composed his AA History? And if so, why was it overlooked, and perhaps hitherto (by Kurtz and/or others)? Is any of that even "important?" What, REALLY, is the importance of AA vernacular, in a historical sense? From where I sit, at this moment in time, I'm mainly interested in answer(s), provisional or otherwise, to only the first of these questions. ___________________________________________ From G.C. the moderator: The first edition of Ernest Kurtz, Not-God: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous, came out in 1979, over thirty years ago. He starts on page vii with a quote from page 62 of the Big Book: "First of all we had to quit playing God." So the idea goes back to 1939 at least (the date of publication of the Big Book, over seventy years ago). During the period when Kurtz was a young doctoral student in the History of American Civilization at Harvard University (i.e. during the 1970's, over thirty years ago), he would slip over to Harvard Divinity School on occasion. Some of the Divinity School faculty at that time were strongly affected by Protestant Neo-Orthodox theology (also called crisis theology or dialectical theology) -- the Swiss theologian Karl Barth, Reinhold Niebuhr, Paul Tillich, etc. -- and their idea that the root of all human sinfulness was the human desire to play God. Barth's commentary on the Epistle to the Romans, which came out in 1919 (over ninety years ago), was the first great manifesto of that movement. I don't think that looking at current AA popular vernacular phrases is very useful here, if you are looking for the source of that idea. Not unless you can show that these AA vernacular phrases already existed and were in use at a very early period, prior to 1939. Ernie says in his book that he got the idea of the importance of the "not-God" phrase from the Big Book itself. From my own memories of what was talked about at the best American divinity schools during the 1960's and 1970's, I feel sure that Ernie's sensitivity to the importance of this idea in the Big Book was greatly heightened by the influence of the overall American theological context of that time -- Karl Barth, Reinhold Niebuhr, etc. Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7354. . . . . . . . . . . . When was Anne Smith admitted to St. Thomas Hospital? From: Fritz . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/1/2011 10:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII While studying Chapter XXVIII of Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, "Without Anne, but with loving friends", our group came across an undefined set of dates pertaining to Anne's last days. The last paragraph on page 327 states "When they came back, he called me early one morning and asked me to come over. He said,"Mama hasn't been well. We both knew she as seriously ill. So we took her to St. Thomas. She lasted six or seven days. The question we seem to be puzzled about is,"What day was Anne admitted to St. Thomas hospital? We know Anne passed on June 01,1949 but have not been able to find any verifiable dates to when she was actually admitted to the hospital. The second question we have is about the date they returned from their visit with Smitty in Texas, as we believe this would help in determining her admission to St. Thomas. Any help or direction for locating someone in either Akron or Cleveland would be appreciated with this puzzle we have stumbled across. Love and Tolerance of others, Fritz from Lorain IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7355. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Red-Headed A.A. nurse Known as Teddy From: MattD . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/7/2011 11:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AAHL Group, Does anyone happen to know about the date of birth and death for Teddy Rowan? (By the lack of posts I'd guess probably not.) Matt D. - - - - --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, ron.fulkerson@... wrote: > > Tommy, > > She told her story in the Saturday Evening Post magazine 10/18/1952. > > ronf > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7356. . . . . . . . . . . . Looking out from inside a glass fish bowl From: The Wilsons . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/7/2011 1:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings In one of the stories in one of the editions of the Big Book, the writer made reference to looking at things as though he/she was in a glass fish bowl looking out. Does anyone know which story that might be? Thanks Bob IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7357. . . . . . . . . . . . Jung''s attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism From: AAHistoryLovers member . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2011 5:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is a very important cautionary note for AA historians who wish to portray Carl Jung, in his younger years, as an eager proponent of religious cures as the best and necessary way to treat alcoholism. Carl Jung's earliest attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism seems to include an acknowledgment that such cures do occur on occasion, but his way of speaking about them is nevertheless not very complementary. Jung expressed this ambivalence toward the Group in a talk about the relationship of religion to mental health around 1941. "A hysterical alcoholic was cured by this Group movement, and they used him as a sort of model and sent him all round Europe, where he confessed so nicely and said that he had done wrong and how he had got cured through the Group movement. And when he had repeated his story twenty, or it may have been fifty, times, he got sick of it and took to drink again. The spiritual sensation had simply faded away. Now what are they going to do with him? They say, now he is pathological, he must go to a doctor. See, in the first stage he has been cured by Jesus, in the second by a doctor! I should and did refuse such a case. I sent the man back to these people and said, 'If you believe that Jesus has cured this man, he will do it a second time. And if he can't do it, you don't suppose that I can do it better than Jesus?' But that is just exactly what they do expect; when a man is pathological, Jesus won't help him but the doctor will."[71] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7358. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcohol From: CloydG . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2011 4:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Clyde G. and Mike Portz - - - - "CloydG" (cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net) According to my research, the National Council of Alcoholism was founded in 1944. After years of discussion, the AMA finally declared alcoholism a disease in 1956. My opinion is, Dr. Silkworth was ahead of his time. His fear of publicly stating his theory towards alcoholism as a disease was because such a theory was considered heresy by his medical benefactors. Still, the little doctor did his best to convince Bill W. of the malady of his disease, that he had an allergy of the body and an obsession of the mind. To equivocate our thinking today with those of the day when AA came of age, is simply inaccurate. Meaning, we don't have the same abilities to think today as they did when no one knew of a solution that could help alcoholics; not with any certainty of course. Today AA is primarily based as a fellowship of men and women who practice a Spiritual way of living through a set of principals that enable them to live, "One Day At A Time", immune from having to take a drink to live. No amount of History seeking to define how all of this happened is available. As even the memories from one drunk to another, which were at best seemingly similar, were all too often confused; certainly in a time line anyway, in knowing how AA worked things out as an illness of both mind and body. Simply put, every alcoholic involved who participated in the writing of the original manuscript, alcoholic or not, differed from place to place; Akron members differed with those in Cleveland and they both differed with those in NY. Yet, it was all pieced together to the majorities acceptance, then finally put into print. Though certainly not perfect for Historians, it still worked for alcoholics! Clyde G. - - - - From: Mike Portz (mportz2000 at yahoo.com) Howdy Ms. Laurie and Mr. John Barton, Thanks much for your comments on the "disease of alcoholism." They are very much appreciated. I believe you are absolutely correct about Dr. Silkworth not mentioning the word disease in his opinion. I would guess that he did this to, again, not create any controversy or cause offense to the AMA medical powers of the time. Your probably aware that he also would not allow his name to be printed in the first edition. It did not start appearing until the 2nd edition. He insisted upon this because he feared losing his medical license to practice. That's how cautionary he was about writing his opinion. All historical accounts are that he wanted to do everything he could for A.A., but he had to make a living also. He also, again in order to not cause controversy or offense, insisted upon calling his correspondence an opinion, as opposed to more adamant wording stating or insinuating that his statements were factual or had been proven. They were solely his opinion. As far as their being no "universal consensus" that alcoholism IS a disease, I really have no idea. However the American Medical Association (AMA) does accept it as a disease and it is defined by the AMA as " a primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations." That definition certainly works for me and I'd take a educated guess that the AMA's opinion holds a majority of opinions in the good old USA. That is for anyone who cares if it is a disease. I'd guess that it makes little difference even to most A.A.'s and their loved ones. They're just glad we have a way to get well. As for Bill Wilson's (the compiler) wording"the medical estimate of the plan of recovery," I would think that this wording may have been chosen by Bill and agreed to by other members "of the 'first 100'" to show respect and to honor Dr. Silkworth's request and statement that his opinion not be referred to as fact. Reckon he had a "cautionary fear." I hope this information helps to give you a clearer insight. Mr. John your statement that there are "far more definitive" books on the disease of alcoholism is without question, correct. Please forgive my incorrect comment to the contrary that was not definitive in regards to my intention. My intention, my thought was to state that I was speaking about the "treatment that puts the disease/illness/malady/sickness" of alcoholism into remission. I must say that for this alkie, I'm much more interested in the treatment for remission, and thus a real and productive life, then how a alkie acts or how the liquid poisons my body's systems and organs that will eventually lead to my early or instant death. I always knew it would, I just wanted to find a way to stop it from happening. I am aware that because of the direction of physicians like Dr. Silkworth and other members of its medical fellowship (all who were or became great supporters of Alcoholics Anonymous), that the AMA, the most generally and publicly accepted medical association in America, has progressed enough to agree with the majority opinions of most of its members and has accepted and defined alcoholism as a disease. I don't see what we call it really makes a dang difference to any real alcoholic in recovery. I think the bottom line for most of us alkies is that the Creator gave us a method that now allows for a way to treat are historically fatal malady. As far as Dr. Bob "really not wanting the money," I'd be very appreciative of you could refer me to where I can read up on that statement. I've been reading historic information that is quite contrary to your information. I never would have thought he wanted to lose his house, etc.? Oh well, I'm just searching for the facts. I agree that probably the most important things to Mr. Hank Parkhurst was making money off of the deal and gaining fame. Heck, Clarence Snyder, because of false info from Mr. Hank, was even of the notion that maybe even Dr. Bob and Mr. Bill were misdirecting funds into their own pockets. Of course Bob and Bill both had financial records to prove otherwise. Yeah Bill wanted an income. He wanted to have his own place to stay in and not have to have Lois and himself be "boarded" through the kindness of other A.A.'s and not theirselves. I'd bet that he wanted things like a car, nice clothes and other niceties for Lois. You know the things everyman would like to have for his wife, his loved ones and his self. But to say Bill Wilson wasn't altruistic to the extreme, to imply he was in it for the money, well I sure wish you'd refer me to where I can read about that. The only thing I've ever heard on it is undocumented opinions in meetings from A.A.'s who seem to have good intentions but also have contacted the character defect of believing everything they hear in meetings and accepting it for gospel. Not that we don't hear quite a bit of good stuff in meetings, but I gotta admit where I go to meetings there's also a few members who seem to have "kissed the blarney stone." If you get my drift. So you sure "haven't offended" me John. It's just that there's just some of what you say that I'd like to get a hold the documentation so I can pass around factual information and have a clear conscience about it. This is definitely my last post on the "disease concept." Kind regards in fellowship Mike Portz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7359. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung''s attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2011 12:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Source, please? ernie kurtz - - - - On Apr 30, 2011, at 5:12 PM, AAHistoryLovers.member wrote: > This is a very important cautionary note for AA historians who wish to portray Carl Jung, in his younger years, as an eager proponent of religious cures as the best and necessary way to treat alcoholism. > > Carl Jung's earliest attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism seems to include an acknowledgment that such cures do occur on occasion, but his way of speaking about them is nevertheless not very complementary. > > Jung expressed this ambivalence toward the Group in a talk about the > relationship of religion to mental health around 1941. "A hysterical alcoholic was cured by this Group movement, and they used him as a sort of model and sent him all round Europe, where he confessed so nicely and said that he had done wrong and how he had got cured through the Group movement. And when he had repeated his story twenty, or it may have been fifty, times, he got sick of it and took to drink again. The spiritual sensation had simply faded away. Now what are they going to do with him? They say, now he is pathological, he must go to a doctor. See, in the first stage he has been cured by Jesus, in the second by a doctor! I should and did refuse such a case. I sent the man back to these people and said, 'If you believe that Jesus has cured this man, he will do it a second time. And if he can't do it, you don't suppose that I can do it better than Jesus?' But that is just exactly what they do expect; when a man is pathological, Jesus won't help him but the doctor will."[71] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7360. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung''s attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism From: Michael Gwirtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2011 1:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What is the source of this quote by this anonymous member? Shakey Mike Gwirtz NAAAW2011 in Helena,Montana - - - - On Apr 30, 2011, at 5:12 PM, UnknownSender@UnknownDomain wrote: > This is a very important cautionary note for AA historians who wish to portray Carl Jung, in his younger years, as an eager proponent of religious cures as the best and necessary way to treat alcoholism. > > Carl Jung's earliest attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism seems to include an acknowledgment that such cures do occur on occasion, but his way of speaking about them is nevertheless not very complementary. > > Jung expressed this ambivalence toward the Group in a talk about the > relationship of religion to mental health around 1941. "A hysterical alcoholic was cured by this Group movement, and they used him as a sort of model and sent him all round Europe, where he confessed so nicely and said that he had done wrong and how he had got cured through the Group movement. And when he had repeated his story twenty, or it may have been fifty, times, he got sick of it and took to drink again. The spiritual sensation had simply faded away. Now what are they going to do with him? They say, now he is pathological, he must go to a doctor. See, in the first stage he has been cured by Jesus, in the second by a doctor! I should and did refuse such a case. I sent the man back to these people and said, 'If you believe that Jesus has cured this man, he will do it a second time. And if he can't do it, you don't suppose that I can do it better than Jesus?' But that is just exactly what they do expect; when a man is pathological, Jesus won't help him but the d octor will."[71] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7361. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung''s attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2011 2:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Baileygc23 and Glenn C -- online source of the Jung quotation - - - - Carl Jung on the Oxford Group http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Group Carl Jung became aware of the Oxford Group in the 1920s when Alphonse Maeder, his colleague and former assistant, became involved with the movement. Although Jung recognized that troubled patients sometimes gained a sense of security, purpose and belonging from Group involvement, in his view there was a sacrifice in personal individuation. He therefore did not understand what attraction the group could have for someone with the psychoanalytic sophistication of Maeder. For a time Jung was respectful of Maeder's convictions, but when his relationship with Maeder deteriorated in the 1930s his attitude toward the Oxford Group also became more negative.[70] Jung expressed this ambivalence toward the Group in a talk about the relationship of religion to mental health around 1941. "A hysterical alcoholic was cured by this Group movement, and they used him as a sort of model and sent him all round Europe, where he confessed so nicely and said that he had done wrong and how he had got cured through the Group movement. And when he had repeated his story twenty, or it may have been fifty, times, he got sick of it and took to drink again. The spiritual sensation had simply faded away. Now what are they going to do with him? They say, now he is pathological, he must go to a doctor. See, in the first stage he has been cured by Jesus, in the second by a doctor! I should and did refuse such a case. I sent the man back to these people and said, 'If you believe that Jesus has cured this man, he will do it a second time. And if he can't do it, you don't suppose that I can do it better than Jesus?' But that is just exactly what they do expect; when a man is pathological, Jesus won't help him but the doctor will."[71] [70] ^ C.G. Jung Letters, selected and edited by Gerhard Adler in collaboration with Aniela Jaffe, trans. R.F.C. Hull,Volume 1. [71] ^ Carl Jung, The Symbolic Life, p. 272 - - - - Spirituality as a cure for alcoholism http://www.bookrags.com/wiki/Carl_Jung Jung's influence can sometimes be found in more unexpected quarters. For example, Jung once treated an American patient (Rowland H.) suffering from chronic alcoholism. After working with the patient for some time, and achieving no significant progress, Jung told the man that his alcoholic condition was near to hopeless, save only the possibility of a spiritual experience. Jung noted that occasionally such experiences had been known to reform alcoholics where all else had failed. Rowland took Jung's advice seriously and set about seeking a personal spiritual experience. He returned home to the United States and joined a Christian evangelical movement known as the Oxford Group. He also told other alcoholics what Jung had told him about the importance of a spiritual experience. One of the alcoholics he told was Ebby Thacher, a long-time friend and drinking buddy of Bill Wilson, later co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA). Thacher told Wilson about Jung's ideas. Wilson, who was finding it impossible to maintain sobriety, was impressed and sought out his own spiritual experience. The influence of Jung thus indirectly found its way into the formation of Alcoholics Anonymous, the original 12-step program, and from there into the whole 12-step recovery movement, although AA as a whole is not Jungian and Jung had no role in the formation of that approach or the 12 steps. The above claims are documented in the letters of Carl Jung and Bill W., excerpts of which can be found in Pass It On, published by Alcoholics Anonymous.[16] Although the detail of this story is disputed by some historians, Jung himself made reference to its substance -- including the Oxford Group participation of the individual in question -- in a talk that was issued privately in 1954 as a transcript from shorthand taken by an attendee (Jung reportedly approved the transcript), later recorded in Volume 18 of his Collected Works, The Symbolic Life ("For instance, when a member of the Oxford Group comes to me in order to get treatment, I say, 'You are in the Oxford Group; so long as you are there, you settle your affair with the Oxford Group. I can't do it better than Jesus.' I will tell you a story of such a case. A hysterical alcoholic was cured by this Group movement..."[17]) [16] ^ Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. (1984) Pass It On: The Story of Bill Wilson and how the A.A. message reached the world. New York: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. ISBN 0-916856-12-7, pp. 381-386 [17] ^ Jung, C. G.; Adler, G. and Hull, R. F. C., eds. (1977) Collected Works of C. G. Jung, Volume 18: The Symbolic Life: Miscellaneous Writings, Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, ISBN 978-0-691-09892-0, p. 272, as noted 2007-08-26 at http://www.stellarfire.org/additional.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7362. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: When was Anne Smith admitted to St. Thomas Hospital? From: Robt Woodson . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2011 9:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Fritz, A quick call reveals that the telephone number for St. Thomas's Office of Medical Records is (330) 375-3930. The office will be open tomorrow...(Monday) at 8:30 AM. The receptionist was quite friendly and immediately warmed to the subject. The Hospital is ready, once again, to welcome Founder's Day visitors.in mid-June of this year. The Street outside the Hospital, that runs from Main Street to Olive Street and that runs past their Emergency entrance and what was once the Robert Holbrook Smith Interim Care Center; has been renamed "Dr. Bob's Way". It was mentioned that those would be very old records ... I know because I was born there two years before and my birth certificate appears antique ... (LOL) ... good luck and please share your findings. If I can be more helpful please let me know. Woody in Akron IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7363. . . . . . . . . . . . AA officially brought to U.S. military bases, epec. in Germany From: Dolores . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/5/2011 4:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone have any more information about the Act of Congress which brought AA officially onto the U.S. military bases, especially in Germany? Dolores IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7364. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Chuck Chamberlain From: John Moore . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2011 6:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Ryan, This may or may not help much with getting an archive display concerning Chuck C. I got sober in Laguna Beach in 1971 and went to meetings with Chuck pretty often, and heard him speak many times around LA and Orange County. His home group was the Wed Night meeting at women's club in Laguna. He went to Canyon Club a lot too, but he traveled and spoke at other meetings and conventions a great deal. I believe that he paid his own way when asked to speak. Since he was in demand a lot, it cost him a lot, but I heard that he did it as a service. Chuck ended up with money but he worked hard for it and made a success using the AA principles. He designed and built the freezer and refrigerator departments for the Von's supermarket chain. He got the account by doing it for free and for fun, knowing that if his work was satisfactory, his higher power would make sure he was remunerated, and if not satisfactory, then fine too. A great model for guys like me to follow, as I have been doing for many years. I am pretty sure the Canyon Club was not built or funded by Chuck C. The Canyon Club of today is a far cry from what it was when I got sober in 1971. It was a cramped cinderblock structure on Laguna Canyon road and was not in any way splendid or luxurious. There was a coffee bar and a pool table, restrooms, and the adjoining meeting room would hold maybe 50 or 100 members, though there was not enough parking for that many cars. Chuck often attended the Monday Night Men's meeting at the Club (I was secretary of that group in 1972). Joe Quinn, Frank O'Rourke, Dr Paul O., Bill Blake, Cliff R., Ralph Samuelson and other old timers attended. Here is info I found on the history of the Canyon Club .... John M Burlington, Vermont US contact.johnm@gmail.com __________________________________________ http://www.canyonclub.org/CANYON_CLUB/ABOUT_US.html "In 1980 there was a generous gift from the estate of James (Jim) Dilley. Jim was a bookstore owner from Laguna Beach who had traveled extensively in Europe and had attended Harvard Divinity School. He was also the town drunk. Legend has it that every time Jim’s dog Bebo would see a police car pull up to the curb, he would hop right in. You see, Bebo had become accustomed to regular trips to the town drunk tank. Jim would later get sober at the Canyon Club around 1963. He was very active at the Club and according to sources, became a chief source of financial support for years when the Club couldn’t pay it’s own way. He was 16 or 17 years sober (best the old timers can remember) when he died—bequeathing his bookstore to the Canyon Club in a final gesture of gratitude for all he had found there. Jim’s gift to the Canyon Club of Dilley’s Bookstore (now Sherwood Gallery) was later used by the Club’s Board of Trustees to purchase a piece of commercial property in the canyon. The Board was feeling the pinch from the membership to find a new Club. It had been 13 years since Jim’s donation. The commercial property that the Club already owned was deemed unsuitable for redevelopment as a meeting space. So a land exchange was brokered from that property to the current property site—20456 Laguna Canyon Road—a 1.4 acre plot of land. The building of the Club was underway. A competition for development plans opened to architects who did non-residential buildings. After reviewing proposals from three different firms, Peyo & Associates was selected. The architectural firm had done many previous non-residential projects. Not only was their price the most competitive, it took into account the spiritual intent of the building. Some of the unique design features were: 1) The basic structure had two wings which were angled to embrace or receive all who entered. 2) The parking lot was “green” because it was gravel where water would drain into the ground and not just run off. 3) Trees and landscape were incorporated to preserve the park-like appearance and decrease the noise from Laguna Canyon Road. The winning bid for the Club’s construction came from Young Construction Co. Both the architect and construction firms gave us very large discounts. The bid for construction was $333,033.33. (I think three was his lucky number.) In regard to day-to-day construction at the site, the architect turned up everyday to supervise quality of materials as well as his crew. One day I spoke with him. “You know we cannot pay you for daily supervision. You are putting in an extremely large amount of time for which we are unable to compensate.” He responded with a great story... “When I was in high school I had just won a scholarship to college and went out to celebrate,” he said. “Unfortunately I got drunk and arrested by the police that night. Standing before the judge, I explained that I was a first generation Bulgarian—and that no one from my country had ever been accepted into Berkeley. I had a full scholarship and if the DUI went on my record, I would loose the scholarship. Unbelievably, the judge said, ‘I’m going to expunge your record this time, but sometime in the future you must make a contribution to help AA.’ So you see Herman, this is my payback.” After the project started we noted that we were running short of building funds due to the many changes we were adding. We conducted fundraising activities, but were still short. Head of the fundraising committee was Muriel Zink, so we put the matter in her hands. She asked one of our angels for a contribution. He said, “How much do you need?” She responded with $30 thousand. He wrote a check then and there. The time frame from the appointment of the new Trustees to completion of the building was from April 1993 to November 1993. These are just a few of the miracles that helped put this new building into place. – by Herman F." contact.johnmoore@gmail.com * *On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:02 AM, Charley Bill wrote: * > > * * > > *Ryan, check with someone at the Canyon Club in Laguna Beach, California. > Chuck is said to have built it and donated it to the Laguna AAs. It is far > above any and all 'AA' facilities I have seen in my 41 years of travels in > and out of sobriety. Good Luck and I think you will find someone there who > can tell you loads about Chuck. I just knew him scantly, but knew both his > drivers and one of his would-be biographers(now dead). > > There is a branch of the Orange County Central office in Laguna and I * * > bet they have loads of stuff on Chuck, too. A little group I belong to > studied A New Pair of Glasses a year or two ago and we were not > impressed. I remember him as a great orator, but did not know much > about the content of his speeches as I was new at the time. > > > > * > ** > * * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7365. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcohol From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2011 8:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi all: I'd like to toss in one more tid-bit about searching for documentation. During the past 13 years when I was researching AA history for my book about Rogers Burnham(not yet published), I orignally found many pieces of information which I accepted as "facts" because they had been published for all to read. Later, I found in other sources that some things were actualy "not true" as proven by data found in court records, etc. I mention this in connection to what seems to be our wish to establish a reliable origin for things which occurred in the minds of the AA pioneers back in the 1930s ...or in places like dictionaries ... so that we may have helpful guidelines for the way(s) AA-today is (or presumedly "should" ) be practiced currently. My position is that we historians can be satisfied by sharing "history" simply as history, knowing that there probably is no absolute truth to anything, since circumstances vary and control results. Les Cole Colorado Springs, CO IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7366. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung''s attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2011 9:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Ernest Kurtz wrote: > > Source, please? > > ernie kurtz > It appears in Volume 18 of the Collected Works, Miscellaneous Writings, page 272. Another remark, apparently about the same patient, appears on page 242. You, by the way, were the cause of that passage coming to light. It went viral after I put it in an addendum to my Stellar Fire article, and here is how it came to my attention. I had emailed a Jungian practitioner in the Philadelphia area to ask him if he had any idea who the mysterious Fred W. in "Not God" might be. He didn't know, but after checking out the article, he emailed back to ask why I had not considered the best primary source of all, Jung's own statements about the situation. An original mention of Rowland Hazard by Jung, prior to the Bill Wilson letter? That would have been the holy grail I was seeking. My correspondent pointed me to the right volume, and of course, it turned out that Jung did not identify the patient closely enough that we can be sure he meant Rowland. In addition, it is unlikely that Rowland actually toured with the Oxford Group in Europe, although he certainly did in North America. He planned to go on an Oxford Group trip to Europe, which was to include Zurich as well as other cities, but apparently changed his mind at the last moment. My sources for this are the Alexander Smith papers in Princeton and notes in the back of Sam Shoemaker's appointment book, Billy Graham library, Wheaton IL. I assume that Fred W. had also read those passages about the alcoholic and the Oxford Group, as he was aware of something written or said by Jung which indicated that Rowland had returned to drinking after his Oxford Group involvement. I heard Fred say so on the tape of your interview with him, now at the Brown library. So my correspondent was probably not the only one to think that those passages referred to Rowland Hazard. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7367. . . . . . . . . . . . Carl Jung and Dr. Silkworth From: greer21770 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2011 7:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII How much did Dr. Silkworth know of Carl Jung's work before he began treating Bill Wilson? Silkworth's "psychic change" sounds very much like the ideas shown on P27:4 in the Big Book and attributed to Dr. Jung. Did Jung publish his concept of "vital spiritual experiences" before 1934? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7368. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung''s attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism From: David Jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/10/2011 4:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Symbolic Life, by Prof. C. G. Jung You can search and read the majority of the book at the following link. The book was published in 1977 and contains a collection of Jung's writings. The Symbolic Life was published in 1935 and was delivered as a lecture on 5th April 1939, information taken from the myLOC Library of Congress websire. See second link. Hope this helps!!! http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ndI9AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=symbo lic+\ life&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false [13] http://myloc.gov/Exhibitions/redbook/redbookandbeyond/ExhibitObjects/Symboli cLif\ e.aspx [14] Regards David ____________________________________________ http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ndI9AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=symbo lic+\ life&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false [13] The Symbolic Life: Miscellaneous Writings, by Carl Gustav Jung Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1977 - Psychology - 904 pages Originally planned as a brief final volume in the Collected Works, The Symbolic Life has become the most ample volume in the edition, and one of unusual interest. It contains some 160 items spamming sixty years; they include forewords, replies to questionnaires, encyclopedia articles, occasional addresses, and letters on technical subjects. Collection of this material relied on three chief circumstances. After Jung returned from active medical practice, he gave more of his time to writing, and some sixty papers as well as books were written after 1950. Second, recent research has brought to light a number of reviews, reports and articles from the early years of Jung's career. Finally, Jung's files yielded several finished or virtually finished papers that survived in manuscript.Volume 18 includes three longer works: 'The Tavistock Lectures' (1936); 'Symbols and the Interpretation of Dreams' (1961); and 'The Symbolic Life', the transcript of a seminar given in London in 1939. - - - - http://myloc.gov/Exhibitions/redbook/redbookandbeyond/ExhibitObjects/Symboli cLif\ e.aspx [14] The Symbolic Life, by Prof. C. G. Jung In 1937, the Guild of Pastoral Psychology was established in London to encourage the study of psychology among clergy and other spiritual leaders, with particular reference to Jung's work. In 1939, its patron, Jung, delivered this lecture, in which he stated that "Only the symbolic life can express the needs of the soul." The guilds website explains the cover logo: The chalice symbolises the great womb of life. The opposites meet in all their variety and fecundity and are contained until they transform. It is the female and maternal giving birth to life. The snake is that symbol of regeneration because it casts away its old skin, burnt in the fiery tension between opposites, and a new form emerges. C. G. Jung. The Symbolic Life: A Seminar Talk Given on 5th April, 1939, transcript from shorthand notes of Derek Kitchin. London: Guild of Pastoral Psychology, 1954. Rare Book and Special Collections Division, Library of Congress. Courtesy of the Guild of Pastoral Psychology (023.00.00) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7369. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung''s attitude toward religion: Carl Jung, The Red Book From: John Theede . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/10/2011 1:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII While Jung's opinions on organized religion as a cure for alcoholism may be in doubt, his view on the need for a spiritual path for recovery is certainly not. His book: "Modern Man in Search of a Soul" (not published until 1955) clearly reveals his belief that psychology and religion are not exclusive from each other and may be very related. His recently published journal, The Red Book, indicates that this was an interest of his from very early on. It details his own personal "confrontation with the unconscious", written during a period from 1913 to 1930, describes his descent into his unconscious and eventual understanding of the totality of his entire being and his "soul." This was while he was seeing patients in an active practice, begun just after his famous "break" with Freud in 1913. He broke with Freud over his insistence that man was only driven by his repressed desires and emotions. Jung believed that in addition to the "personal unconscious" of Freud, there was a "collective unconscious" that all mankind shared, where archetypes resided and which have historically been represented by mythology and religion. He saw religion as a gateway to this other world of unconscious spirituality? ... search for a soul? Jung was a complex, brilliant man, but he also understood the simplicity and power of a spiritual solution. John T., San Francisco ______________________________________________ CARL JUNG, THE RED BOOK check out publisher's website: http://www.philemonfoundation.org/ https://www.philemonfoundation.org/support/bookstore/ The Red Book By C. G. Jung When Carl Jung embarked on an extended self-exploration he called his “confrontation with the unconscious,” the heart of it was The Red Book, a large, illuminated volume he created between 1914 and 1930. Here he developed his principle theories—of the archetypes, the collective unconscious, and the process of individuation—that transformed psychotherapy from a practice concerned with treatment of the sick into a means for higher development of the personality. While Jung considered The Red Book to be his most important work, only a handful of people have ever seen it. Now, in a complete facsimile and translation, it is available to scholars and the general public. It is an astonishing example of calligraphy and art on a par with The Book of Kells and the illuminated manuscripts of William Blake. This publication of The Red Book is a watershed that will cast new light on the making of modern psychology. 212 color illustrations. ______________________________________________ From The Washington Post's Book World/washingtonpost.com Reviewed by by Michael Dirda Starting in 1912, Carl Gustav Jung (1875-1961), a specialist in the treatment of schizophrenia, began to experience strange dreams and frightening visions. Once when returning home on a train, the 38-year-old Swiss psychologist hallucinated that everywhere he looked he could see nothing but "rivers of blood." In one enigmatic dream a bird-girl hauntingly announced, "Only in the first hour of the night can I become human, while the male dove is busy with the twelve dead"; in another he encountered a wise old man, with wings, holding four keys. After a while, Jung began to carry on conversations with the winged "Philemon" during his daytime walks. Was he going mad? After World War I broke out in 1914, Jung decided with relief that his disturbed imagination had actually been sensing the coming conflict. He also concluded that he had entered what we would now call a midlife crisis, a period in which he was being compelled to reexamine his life and explore his deepest self. To do this, he recorded some of his dreams and visions in what were later called his "Black Books" (which have been available for some while). But he also began a remarkable visionary text, illustrated with his own bizarre paintings: "The Red Book" or "Liber Novus." This he composed during a state of "active imagination" -- that is, of reverie or waking dream. As he said, he wanted to see what would happen when he "switched off consciousness." To the modern reader, the result recalls an allegorical-mythological amalgam of Nietzsche's "Also Sprach Zarathustra," Blake's illuminated poems, Renaissance Neoplatonic dialogue, Eastern scripture, Dante's "Inferno," Yeats's "A Vision" and even the biblical book of Revelation. Jung's pictures sometimes resemble simplified versions of Georgia O'Keeffe's flower paintings and sometimes the symbol-laden images in treatises about alchemy (a subject that Jung was soon to study intently). Throughout, one finds illuminated capitals, interlaced roundels that call to mind stained-glass windows, stars, half moons, swords, crosses, dying animals. Jung also drew circular patterns that he later recognized as versions of the mystical shape called the mandala. "The Red Book" was never published during the psychologist's lifetime, though a few friends and disciples were allowed to examine it. Apparently Jung felt it was not only too personal and quirky for publication, but also that he had already mined the text for the insights set forth in his later writings. As editor Sonu Shamdasani stresses, "The overall theme of the book is how Jung regains his soul and overcomes the contemporary malaise of spiritual alienation. This is ultimately achieved through enabling the rebirth of a new image of God in his soul and developing a new worldview in the form of a psychological and theological cosmogony." After Jung's death, "The Red Book," was safely locked away in a bank deposit box. But, as happens, Jung's heirs and disciples have now decided to bring out this facsimile edition (with English translation), as well as mount an exhibition about "The Red Book" at the Rubin Museum of Art in New York (through January). The resulting volume is certainly one of the most distinctive gift books of the upcoming holiday season. With a rich crimson dust jacket, thick cream-colored paper and calligraphied pages, this huge tome is the size of a lectern Bible and looks like the kind of spell book a wizard might consult. During the initial period covered by "The Red Book" -- mainly 1913 through the 1920s -- Jung broke permanently with the founder of psychoanalysis, Sigmund Freud, and resigned from his teaching position at the University of Zurich. When Jung emerged from this period of crisis, he brought with him the first inklings of his most important contributions to psychology -- positing the existence of a collective unconscious common to all human beings. This primordial ocean within us affects our lives through various universal "archetypes" -- forces or situations that represent our inmost needs, desires and fears. To the most common archetypes, Jung assigned names: anima and animus, the wise old man, the shadow. The anima, for instance, represents the feminine side of a man, his idealized woman, his fatal type. The shadow embodies everyone's dark side, the impulses we suppress, the immoral and evil aspects of our personality. The good Dr. Jekyll's "shadow" was the wicked Mr. Hyde. Gradually, Jung also shifted the focus of psychoanalytic therapy. Early on he had speculated that our libidinal energies are either outer-directed or inner-directed, i.e., people are primarily extroverts or introverts. But this was just a beginning. Where Freud emphasized early childhood and sexuality in his explanation of human neuroses, and Alfred Adler focused on the drive to be superior to others, Jung soon directed his clinical attention to the second half of life and to the process he called individuation. According to editor Shamdasani, "The Red Book" presents "the prototype of Jung's conception of the individuation process." In Jung's view a successful life was all about balance, wholeness. If our lives erred too much in one direction, our unconscious would compensate for the inequality. Thus, in the film "The Blue Angel," the ultra-rationalist professor played by Emil Jannings readily succumbs to naughty Lola, the showgirl played by Marlene Dietrich. Above all, in midlife, a person is called upon to achieve an authentic and balanced self, one that acknowledges every aspect of his or her character. By the age of 40 or 50, one has established a career and nurtured a family, and it is time to turn from the external public life to the needs of the inner man or woman. The process of individuation is essentially the psychological harmonizing of all aspects of the self. When successful, the result is an inner concord, the achievement of a personal serenity that prepares us to accept aging and death. Symbolically, Jung said, the outline of our lives may be glimpsed in the so-called "hero's journey" -- birth in obscurity, various ordeals, confrontation with and defeat of a dragon or similar monster, return home, happy marriage, sacrificial death. This now famous mythic pattern was later elaborated by such Jung-inspired scholars as Otto Rank ("The Myth of the Birth of the Hero"), Lord Raglan ("The Hero") and Joseph Campbell ("The Hero With a Thousand Faces"). As it happens, one must be something of a hero to actually read all of "The Red Book." At times, Jung sounds spiritually anguished: "I am weary, my soul, my wandering has lasted too long, my search for myself outside of myself." At other times, his writing resembles the directions in some fantasy video game: "I am standing in a high hall. Before me I see a green curtain between two columns. The curtain parts easily. . . . In the rear wall, I see a door right and left. . . . I choose the right." At still other times, there are philosophical and religious dialogues of self and soul, or conversations with various mythic characters like Philemon. In short, this is a volume that will be treasured by the confirmed Jungian or by admirers of beautifully made books or by those with a taste for philosophical allegory. Anyone merely interested in Jung's ideas would do better to start with one of the several anthologies of his writings now available. The one compiled by Anthony Storr is particularly good, as is Storr's concise "Modern Masters" guide to the psychologist's thought. bookworld@washpost.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7370. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung''s attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism From: Michael Gwirtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2011 11:42:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII No no no From what source Not who was the source Shakey Mike Gwirtz Sent from my iPhone ________________________________________ On May 8, 2011, at 12:22 PM, Ernest Kurtz wrote: > Source, please? > > ernie kurtz > > - - - - > > On Apr 30, 2011, at 5:12 PM, AAHistoryLovers.member wrote: > > > This is a very important cautionary note for AA historians who wish to portray Carl Jung, in his younger years, as an eager proponent of religious cures as the best and necessary way to treat alcoholism. > > > > Carl Jung's earliest attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism seems to include an acknowledgment that such cures do occur on occasion, but his way of speaking about them is nevertheless not very complementary. > > > > Jung expressed this ambivalence toward the Group in a talk about the > > relationship of religion to mental health around 1941. "A hysterical alcoholic was cured by this Group movement, and they used him as a sort of model and sent him all round Europe, where he confessed so nicely and said that he had done wrong and how he had got cured through the Group movement. And when he had repeated his story twenty, or it may have been fifty, times, he got sick of it and took to drink again. The spiritual sensation had simply faded away. Now what are they going to do with him? They say, now he is pathological, he must go to a doctor. See, in the first stage he has been cured by Jesus, in the second by a doctor! I should and did refuse such a case. I sent the man back to these people and said, 'If you believe that Jesus has cured this man, he will do it a second time. And if he can't do it, you don't suppose that I can do it better than Jesus?' But that is just exactly what they do expect; when a man is pathological, Jesus won't help him but the d octor will."[71] > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7371. . . . . . . . . . . . Pass It On -- Bill W. never a member of AA? From: Bruce C. . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2011 7:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The paper cover of the book "Pass It On" states the following: "Here is Bill W., the man everybody knew and nobody knew .... Bill's character was complex and contradictory. Although we always tried to place him on a pedestal, he strove for genuine humility, declining honors and stressing the spiritual value of anonymity. The co-founder of A.A., he was never a member of A.A., because we never allowed him to be." The question: Why does the book jacket say that Bill W. "was never a member of A.A."? What is the source for this statement? Bruce Cleaver IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7372. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA officially brought to U.S. military bases, epec. in Germany From: joe . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2011 9:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dolores, You may be referring to the Hughes Act signed into law in 1970 by President Nixon. The book the original moderator of the AAHistoryLovers wrote, "With a Lot of Help From Our Friends" details the process and some of its implications.* However, I do not believe AA as an autonomous entity needed a law to officially bring AA onto any military installation. In fact, I have evidence of AA groups on bases throughout the world before then and many of them are well documented in AA Grapevine digital archives in Germany, Guam, Korea, as well as MacDill AFB, Florida where AA was brought by an Army Air Corps Sergeant. Additionally Sgt Bill S. who wrote "On the Military Firing Line in the alcoholism treatment Program" attended and helped start AA meetings on bases well before the Hughes Act.** It is my experience that AA meetings are held on bases when the relationship with the Chaplain Corps and others on base allow adequate meeting space to be rented or available and when access to the base by sufficient alcoholics support keeping the meeting open. It has never in my years of experience been related to legislation. The Hughes Act did open doors to alcoholism treatment opportunities and several high level military personnel sober at the time were instrumental in testifying and supporting the law, which essentially funded and recognized federally alcoholism and support for its treatment. At least that is my perspective of this part of our history. Others here may certainly know more about this fascinating topic. _________________________________________ *Nancy Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of Alcoholism (2003) -- http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html For more on Nancy's life (1929-2005) see http://hindsfoot.org/nomem1.html _________________________________________ **A second edition is currently in press and should appear shortly: William E. Swegan, The Psychology of Alcoholism Copyright © 2011 by Mary Elizabeth Swegan and Glenn F. Chesnut. Originally published © 2003 as On the Military Firing Line in the Alcoholism Treatment Program by Sgt. Bill S. with Glenn F. Chesnut. http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kBS4.html http://hindsfoot.org/kBS5.html http://hindsfoot.org/BSV02Psy.html ========================================= --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Dolores" wrote: > > Does anyone have any more information about the Act of Congress which brought AA officially onto the U.S. military bases, especially in Germany? > > Dolores > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7373. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA officially brought to U.S. military bases, epec. in Germany From: joe . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/13/2011 10:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII One specific piece of evidence that AA met on military bases in Germany pre-Hughes Act was published in Grapvine February 1961. R.S. wrote a letter published in the section called PO Box 1980 "Going a long way to say hello OUR group is situated on an RCAF base in the beautiful Black Forest area of Germany and only a stone's throw across the Rhine river from France. It seems to me that this is the place that all active alcoholics dream of. You are no doubt aware that AA groups over here are rather scarce. The group nearest to us is at the American Army Post some 40 miles from here and the next one about 40 miles past this. Even though the distances between groups are considerable throughout Germany, we still get around. Some of us drove to another group the other evening just to say hello and covered more than 100 miles. R. S. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Dolores" wrote: > > Does anyone have any more information about the Act of Congress which brought AA officially onto the U.S. military bases, especially in Germany? > > Dolores > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7374. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA officially brought to U.S. military bases, epec. in Germany From: Kimball ROWE . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/11/2011 9:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Dolores, Kim here (formerly of Zweibrucken) Checkout "The Comprehensive Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism Prevention, Treatment and Rehabilitation Act of 1970." It was also known as the Hughes Act, promoted by Senator Harold E. Hughes and Marty Mann (Women Suffer Too). I don't recall "Social Actions" or "Alcohol Rehabilitation Centers (ARC)" existing until the early 70s. I do recall that it was common for "Social Actions" and military "Alcohol Rehabilitation Centers (ARC)" to invite AA on base for meetings. From: Dolores Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 2:56 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] AA officially brought to U.S. military bases, epec. in Germany Does anyone have any more information about the Act of Congress which brought AA officially onto the U.S. military bases, especially in Germany? Dolores [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7375. . . . . . . . . . . . Challenging the Second A in A.A. From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/10/2011 7:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Challenging the Second ‘A’ in A.A. In modern recovery, anonymity is viewed as harking to a time when alcoholism was seen as a disgrace. By DAVID COLMAN The New York Times, May 6, 2011 http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/08/fashion/08anon.html?_r=4&pagewanted=1&sq=a nony\ mous&st=cse&scp=6 [15] I’m David Colman, and I’m an alcoholic. In the 15 years since I quit drinking, I’ve neither spoken nor written those words, and now, in doing so, I have more or less violated the first-name-only tenet of Alcoholics Anonymous, the grass-roots organization whose meetings have helped me (and millions of others) quit drinking. As A.A.’s 11th Tradition states, “We need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and films.” Of course, in the meetings I’ve attended over the years, anonymity has always been a kind of collective fiction. Before and after sessions, I find myself talking to people I know from work: greeting an artist I’ve interviewed or a fashion designer I want to; hashing over logistics with a P.R. guy or a magazine editor. At one of these, a big Sunday meeting in Greenwich Village, I’ve been surprised to see well-known actors and authors up on the dais to share their stories — often, I’ve noticed, when they have something to promote, as if it’s just another a stop on the press tour. Frequently, I find friends introducing me to others in the group by my full name, “You know David Colman, don’t you?” More and more, anonymity is seeming like an anachronistic vestige of the Great Depression, when A.A. got its start and when alcoholism was seen as not just a weakness but a disgrace. Over the past few years, so many memoirs about recovery have been released that they constitute a genre unto itself. (Kick Lit?) Moreover, many of them share a format that comes from A.A. itself: most 12-step meetings revolve loosely around what is called a “qualification” — an informal monologue by one member about his or her battle with the bottle. The last few years have brought us fleshed-out qualifications by Augusten Burroughs (“Dry”), Mary Karr (“Lit”), Nikki Sixx (“The Heroin Diaries”), Eric Clapton (“Clapton: The Autobiography”), Nic Sheff (“Tweak”) and James Frey (“A Million Little Pieces,” fabricated, in part, though it was), as well as hundreds of other blurry, cautionary tales of debauchery and redemption. Somewhere, their patron saint — Augustine of Hippo, whose “Confessions” inaugurated the sinner-cum-saint format in A.D. 398 — is smiling. With precious few exceptions, like Thomas De Quincey’s “Confessions of an English Opium-Eater” in 1822 and Lillian Roth’s “I’ll Cry Tomorrow” in 1954, the form barely existed 20 years ago. People seeking help from any number of addictions can find public role models — the quitterati, if you will — like Eminem (the album “Recovery”), Pink (the song “Sober”), and Russell Brand, in the remake of “Arthur” (if they were among the few moviegoers who actually saw it), which seemed in many ways to echo the now-abandoned life he wrote about in “My Booky Wook: A Memoir of Sex, Drugs and Stand-Up.” “I think it’s extremely healthy that anonymity is fading,” said Clancy Martin, a professor of philosophy at the University of Missouri at Kansas City. Mr. Martin broke his anonymity in a 9,000-word essay he wrote in the January issue of Harper’s Magazine detailing his experience getting sober in A.A. and his frustrations with the resistance he met in meetings when trying to talk openly about the psychiatric medications that he, like many recovering addicts, took. But not everyone is happy about this turn toward openness, chief among them A.A. itself, which last year issued an expanded statement on anonymity that has been read at some meetings, adding language about the importance of discretion on social networking Web sites, hoping to ward off breaches both purposeful and accidental. Some people have posted pictures taken at A.A. meetings on their Facebook pages, said a spokeswoman for A.A. who asked not to be identified. In some cases, they may have involuntarily outed other attendees. “We don’t have the wherewithal to deal with the complaints,” she added. “It’s literally in the thousands now.” IN the world of recovery — encompassing the greater community of recovering addicts, which overlaps mightily but not officially with A.A. and its alphabet soup of sister groups — anonymity is a concept that, even if it doesn’t feel bit old-fashioned, can be self-defeating. “Having to deny your own participation in a program that is helping your life doesn’t make sense to me,” said Maer Roshan, the editor of The Fix, a new, hip-feeling Web magazine aimed at the recovery world. “You could be focusing light on something that will make it better and more honest and more helpful.” The idea for The Fix — a mixture of serious journalism, reviews of rehab programs and irreverent features (like one about the “most irritating” 12-step slogans) — came to Mr. Roshan about 18 months ago, when he was living in Los Angeles and out of rehab for alcohol and drug use. Newly exposed to the realm of recovery, Mr. Roshan was struck by how little solid and comprehensive information there was about it. “There are hundreds of books and millions of Web articles, but it’s hard to discern what’s real and what’s agenda,” he said. “It’s so weird. With Yelp, you can find out everything about the pizza place on the corner, but there’s no good, unfiltered, reported information on most rehabs — and this is something you could be spending $100,000 on.” Having started an early mainstream-style gay and lesbian magazine in the early 1990s — the short-lived QW — Mr. Roshan was also struck by the similarities between the two worlds, particularly when it came to the issue of anonymity. “The recovery world is now where the gay world was then,” he said. “Back then, there was a still a stigma to saying you were gay. There was a community, but it was mired in self-doubt and self-hatred, and it’s changed considerably. Not just gay people, but the perception of gay people has changed. There’s a lot of secretiveness and shame in the recovery world, too, but that’s changing.” “There’s not a day that goes by that some major figure doesn’t announce himself as a substance abuser. There’s a community of people who don’t see it as shameful. These are people that have learned from challenges who have a hunger for life and money to spend, and who want to make up for lost time.” But even for people who want to be more open, the exact line of where anonymity begins and ends is not clear-cut. Many people assume that to identify themselves as “sober” or “in recovery” qualifies as a breach. In fact, only identifying yourself as a member of A.A. or other specific 12-step groups does. The topic of clarifying these boundaries was brought up yet again at A.A.’s annual General Service Conference, which took place in New York City last week, with debate focused on how the organization’s “Understanding Anonymity” pamphlet could be best worded to guide those who want to follow the letter or spirit of the principle. This delicate question was the subject of an essay by Susan Cheever in The Fix, titled “Is It Time to Take the Anonymous Out of A.A.?” Given that she has written books about both her alcoholism and that of her father, the writer John Cheever, as well as one on the history of A.A., it’s not hard to guess whether she is an A.A. member. But in her essay, she vented her frustrations with trying to observe the practice of anonymity while trying to speak frankly about addiction. “We are in the midst of a public health crisis when it comes to understanding and treating addiction,” Ms. Cheever wrote. “A.A.’s principle of anonymity may only be contributing to general confusion and prejudice.” Her message wasn’t exactly greeted with open arms, inciting a flood of largely critical comments from the site’s readers. (One of the tamer ones: “Without ANONYMITY, A.A. will not continue to exist and help millions of alcoholics and addicts all over the world!”) Still, others have embraced the path of full disclosure and been rewarded. Since becoming sober in 2006, Patrick J. Kennedy, the former Rhode Island congressman and a son of the late Edward M. Kennedy, has acknowledged that he attends A.A. meetings while also actively campaigning for legislation to make addiction be held to the same standard of insurance coverage as other mental health issues. (The Mental Health Parity and Addiction Equity Act, included as a rider on the Troubled Asset Relief Program, was signed into law in October 2008.) “The personal identification that Jim and I brought to this issue as recovering alcoholics gave us a place from which to speak about this,” Mr. Kennedy said, referring to former Representative Jim Ramstad, Republican of Minnesota, his co-sponsor of the bill (and for a time, his sponsor in A.A.). “Stigma here is our biggest barrier, and knowledge and understanding are the antidote to stigma.” Molly Jong-Fast, 32, a New York novelist who became sober in A.A. 12 years ago, agrees. “It’s seems crazy that we can’t just be out with it, in this day and age,” Ms. Jong-Fast said. “I don’t want to have to hide my sobriety; it’s the best thing about me.” Some are trying to find a middle ground between secrecy and full disclosure. Faces and Voices of Recovery, a group based in Washington, has recruited people to speak publicly about being sober while nominally retaining their anonymity, a process they call “recovery messaging.” Their goal is to stress the positive aspects of sobriety and counter negative public perceptions of recovered addicts and alcoholics. “I remember growing up, if you saw someone on TV who was in recovery, you couldn’t see their face or their voice was disembodied,” said Pat Taylor, the group’s executive director. “But there’s nothing that prohibits people from talking about recovery as long as they don’t mention their actual support group. And the other thing is that there are so many ways that people are getting into recovery and sustaining it. It’s not just one path.” In the professional recovery world, where one might expect to find a consensus, the debate can be the fiercest of all. Some believe that more people in recovery should go public. “I violate my anonymity daily,” said Rick Ohrstrom, the chairman of C4 Recovery Solutions, a consultancy firm. “I am 25 years in recovery, and have been out there fighting for the rights of people in recovery, and I’m sick and tired of people in A.A. meetings not lifting a finger to do anything about it. They hide behind anonymity — if you don’t tell anyone else that recovery works, that’s what you’re doing. That’s not how A.A. got to be where it was.” Others insist on the importance of privacy. “Our effectiveness to reach the still-suffering alcoholic is better protected by anonymity, even today, than not having anonymity at the public level,” said Dr. Andrea Barthwell, the chief executive of Two Dreams Outer Banks, a rehab center in Corolla, N.C. “It’s possible that anonymity would be lifted sometime in the future, but there’s no one that’s made that compelling argument yet — and it can’t be done from outside the fellowship.” But even some who have faithfully observed the practice, myself included, have a suspicion that, if staying anonymous is not an outdated (and sometimes absurd) technicality, it is at least a choice that everyone should have. “I am increasingly uncomfortable with this level of dishonesty,” Ms. Cheever said in a telephone interview last month. “This dancing around and hedging, figuring out ways of saying it that aren’t really saying it, so that people in recovery know what I am talking about — all the code words. I am sure this is not what Bill intended." Having written a biography of Bill — that is, Bill Wilson, one of the founders of A.A. — Ms. Cheever is in a position to say what the idea of anonymity was intended to do as few are. First and foremost, anonymity was meant to shield those struggling to become sober from the stigma of being an alcoholic, a stigma far more marked 75 years ago when there was little research on alcoholism as a medical condition over which its sufferers had little control. These are the most common considerations when weighing the reasons for anonymity. But the second part of the ideal, spelled out in A.A.’s 12th Tradition, makes the case for observing anonymity within A.A. itself — and it’s worth noting that there’s little, if any, dissension on this subject. Unlike the more practical 11th Tradition, aimed at the outer world, the 12th Tradition takes a crack at our far more problematic inner world. Stating (somewhat obliquely) that “anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities, ” it’ s about cultivating the often overlooked idea of humility, an excellent means for quieting the now-me-more urges that bedevil addictive people more than their peers. In this light, anonymity is a token, a symbolic gesture, but we are symbolic people. Even shedding your last name can go a surprisingly long way toward shedding the weight of being yourself. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7376. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA brought to U.S. military bases From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2011 3:25:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For what it is worth, there was an AA meeting on March Air Force Base in Riverside, California from 1945 until the mid 1960's. The location of the meeting on the base changed from the cafeteria to the Chapel several times, which leads us to believe the meeting was growing and shrinking like most meetings over those years. The Area 9 Archives could never determine who was responsible for starting that meeting, but it was believed the base Chaplain had something to do with it. It was said the Chaplain attended the meetings and observed from a distance but never really participated. Also from what I was told, it was hard for anyone to get on to March Air Force Base because the time period was at the end of WW II.. In 1945 this base would have been in the middle of nowhere, surrounded by acres and acres of orange groves, desert, and mountains. But AA members not in the Air Force, and who made the drive, were allowed to attend the meeting. Members parked their cars at the front gate and someone would drive to the gate pick you up and return you to the gate after the meeting. The base closed in 1993, and by the late 1990's while serving as the Area 9 archivist I went on base to take photos of the buildings that the meetings were held, but they had been torn down. Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7377. . . . . . . . . . . . Passing of Dr. Bill D. of the International Doctors in AA From: bsdds@comcast.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2011 4:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I regret to announce the passing of Bill Daniel(s) M.D. (I never really knew whether his last name had an s on the end). Bill D was a physician who had great impact on the development of IDAA or International Doctors in Alcoholics Anonymous. My sponsor, George T., was the dean of a medical school in the American Southwest in the 80's. He took me to my first IDAA meeting circa 1978 where I met Bill D. (not to be confused with the Bill D of the Big Book). Bill was a gruff old coot who put on the IDAA meeting in Morristown New Jersey every year. He and George, my sponsor, came up with the idea to put the IDAA shindig on in conjunction with CME for docs. Not only would the AA meetings have the twelve steps and traditions, but with participating speakers of different disciplines; and Dr's would get needed CME, not to mention the visualization of others in the health professions. They brought in so many great folks from within the program of AA but also top dog educators who spoke of the implications and complications of alcoholism on the body. I am sure Ernie Kurtz knew him since I recall Ernie participated in one or more of those IDAA meetings. Due to Bill's health, the IDAA meetings were moved to Texas. A couple of them were in San Antonio at the older Riverwalk Marriott, and then in El Paso where Tech had a campus. Bill let go of his leadership of IDAA, and the annual meetings took on different directions ending up in various annual destinations. Both Bill and my sponsor, George T., emphasized that IDAA was not really an AA meeting. "Regular" AA had no substitute and IDAA was just a little "gravy." When I moved to Charlottesville, I had occasion to speak with a fellow at a meeting who asked if I knew who Bill Daniel(s) was. He said he had built a house for him and Stella in Free Union, Virginia (this was Stella his wife, who Bill gave credit for saving his life). I tried to get in touch with him a few years ago more than once. I was told he was not in good health and Stella was like a mother bear and her cubs with him. I wrote him a letter telling him how much I appreciated all he did for me and my family but never knew if he got it. I was told he passed away a few months ago at the age of 94. To me, this guy was a giant in coordinating and bringing acceptability within the medical community regarding the recognition and treatment of alcoholism and addiction in the 1960's, 70's and 80's. I am saddened by his passing but in awe of his work. Bob Schultz Charlottesville, Virginia (bsdds at comcast.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7378. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA brought to Germany: Zweibruecken From: Dolores . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2011 4:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Kim, thanks for your information. I have the history of AA in Zweibruecken. Dolores - - - - THE HUGHES ACT -- 1970 From the Bishop of Books FIFTY BOOKS TRACING AA'S HISTORY http://hindsfoot.org/fiftybk.html *Nancy Olson, "With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of Alcoholism" (2003) http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html **Sally Brown and David R. Brown, "Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous" (2001) http://www.sallyanddavidbrown.com/ http://www.sallyanddavidbrown.com/bios.htm ____________________________________________ Original message #7374 from Kimball ROWE Hi Dolores, Kim here (formerly of Zweibrucken) Checkout "The Comprehensive Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism Prevention, Treatment and Rehabilitation Act of 1970." It was also known as the Hughes Act, promoted by Senator Harold E. Hughes* and Marty Mann** (Women Suffer Too). I don't recall "Social Actions" or "Alcohol Rehabilitation Centers (ARC)" existing until the early 70s. I do recall that it was common for "Social Actions" and military "Alcohol Rehabilitation Centers (ARC)" to invite AA on base for meetings. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7379. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA officially brought to U.S. military bases, epec. in Germany From: Dolores . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2011 4:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Joe, There have been AA meetings in Germany since 1948. I used the word "officially" because after the Hughes act was signed, treatment centers were set up for the US servicemen on the military bases, the best known being that of Bad Cannstatt near Stuttgart. Four such treatment centers were set up in Germany. The Chaplains and the MDs supported the alcoholics before this Act of Congress. The meetings were listed at GSO New York as Loner meetings. You could almost say AA was an open secret Fellowship before 1970. As you wrote it is a fascinating topic. Thanks for your information. Dolores ----- Original Message ----- From: joe To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 3:16 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: AA officially brought to U.S. military bases, epec. in Germany Dolores, You may be referring to the Hughes Act signed into law in 1970 by President Nixon. The book the original moderator of the AAHistoryLovers wrote, "With a Lot of Help From Our Friends" details the process and some of its implications.* However, I do not believe AA as an autonomous entity needed a law to officially bring AA onto any military installation. In fact, I have evidence of AA groups on bases throughout the world before then and many of them are well documented in AA Grapevine digital archives in Germany, Guam, Korea, as well as MacDill AFB, Florida where AA was brought by an Army Air Corps Sergeant. Additionally Sgt Bill S. who wrote "On the Military Firing Line in the alcoholism treatment Program" attended and helped start AA meetings on bases well before the Hughes Act.** It is my experience that AA meetings are held on bases when the relationship with the Chaplain Corps and others on base allow adequate meeting space to be rented or available and when access to the base by sufficient alcoholics support keeping the meeting open. It has never in my years of experience been related to legislation. The Hughes Act did open doors to alcoholism treatment opportunities and several high level military personnel sober at the time were instrumental in testifying and supporting the law, which essentially funded and recognized federally alcoholism and support for its treatment. At least that is my perspective of this part of our history. Others here may certainly know more about this fascinating topic. _________________________________________ *Nancy Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of Alcoholism (2003) -- http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html For more on Nancy's life (1929-2005) see http://hindsfoot.org/nomem1.html _________________________________________ **A second edition is currently in press and should appear shortly: William E. Swegan, The Psychology of Alcoholism Copyright © 2011 by Mary Elizabeth Swegan and Glenn F. Chesnut. Originally published © 2003 as On the Military Firing Line in the Alcoholism Treatment Program by Sgt. Bill S. with Glenn F. Chesnut. http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kBS4.html http://hindsfoot.org/kBS5.html http://hindsfoot.org/BSV02Psy.html ========================================= --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Dolores" wrote: > > Does anyone have any more information about the Act of Congress which brought AA officially onto the U.S. military bases, especially in Germany? > > Dolores > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7380. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pass It On -- Bill W. never a member of AA? From: jaxena77 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2011 1:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill wrote a Grapevine article called "Why Can't We Join A.A., Too?" in the October 1947 Grapevine. I think it explains what the author of Pass It On meant, and I think it is a poignant and true statement. Full text below, copied from Grapevine digital archives. Jackie B *** Why Can't We Join A.A., Too? Dear A.A.s: Dr. Bob and I have a problem. We'd like to share it frankly with you. In actuality, A.A. has a score of "founders," men and women without whose special contributions A.A. might never have been. But somehow the title, "founder," seems to have attached itself almost solely to Dr. Bob and me--a phenomenon due perhaps to the general lack of information about our early days. This sentiment, though it prompts A.A.s to set us somewhat apart from the whole, is deeply touching to us both. We surely have more reasons for gratitude than anyone in the world. But we are beginning to ask ourselves if this over-emphasis will be good for A.A. in the long run. Is so much sentiment for "the founders" entirely wise? Perhaps we A.A.s can become a new kind of human society. To a degree hitherto unknown, A.A. may be able to function upon the power of its own fundamental principles rather than upon the prestige or inspiration of a highly personalized leadership. Thus the whole can become of transcending importance over any part; continued unity and success can then mostly depend upon God as we understand him working vitally in thousands of hearts rather than a few. Deep down, I think we A.A.s have begun to sense this magnificent possibility. The widening conviction that active leadership ought to be transitory and rotating; that each A.A. group with respect to its own affairs needs be accountable only to its own conscience; that our committees and boards are really servants, not officials; that we, as a movement, ought to remain poor, so avoiding the risks of disrupting wealth; that as individual members of A.A. we should remain anonymous before the general public--these are the signs and portents of a unique future. Such concepts certainly leave little room for a prestige-clothed leadership. "But," some will say, "how shall we make such a vision actually work when most societies have to rely so greatly on management, money, and heavily-publicized leadership exercising powerful personal suasion?" Yet incredibly, we are beginning to see our vision come alive. Even though we persist in looking with misgiving on any large accumulation of money or personal prestige in the name of Alcoholics Anonymous, we do continue to grow despite the absence of those sometimes unstable factors upon which other human endeavors must so often depend. Why is this possible? Is it because we are a superior people? Well, hardly! Far from being better than average, we are surely much more fallible. Strangely enough, our group strength seems to stem from our individual and ever potential weakness. We are alcoholics. Even though now recovered, we are never too far removed from the possibility of fresh personal disaster. Each knows he must observe a high degree of honesty, humility, and tolerance, or else drink again. For us of A.A. to drink is to die; to love God and fellow man is to live. Under such potent conditions the impossible has become possible. When each A.A.'s life literally depends upon his unselfish service to others, when false pride, self-pity, or unhealthy self-seeking is almost certain to be unmercifully chastised by John Barleycorn, he needs but a minimum of man-made rules or inspired leaders to hold him on the right course. Nor for long is he apt to continue anything harmful to A.A. unity. He knows so well that we A.A.s shall have to hang together--or else hang separately! At first living the spiritual life because he must, he presently lives it because he wants to. Such is the truly providential circumstance in which we all find ourselves; that is why we are beginning to see new values in A.A. We perceive in our midst a spiritual realm which can be little disturbed by the distractions of wealth or self-serving egocentricity. Against this background let's have another look at Dr. Bob and me. Seemingly, the larger A.A. grows, the more our particular part in its creation and continuance tends to be emphasized. Our status remains exceptional. Nearly all other early A.A.s have long since slipped over to the "sidelines" where, if they have retained the confidence of all, they are frequently consulted. By common consent they have become unofficial coaches, reservoirs of longer experience, to be sought out in the pinches. Their Alma Mater is now served by new teams. These too will have their day on the field, then finally retire. This is, we think, as it ought to be. Dr. Bob and I feel this sound doctrine should apply to us as well. There seems no good reason to make an exception of "the founders." The more we early members continuously occupy the center of the A.A. stage the more we shall set risky precedents for a highly personalized and permanent leadership. To insure well A.A.'s future, is this not the very thing we should carefully avoid? Of course, Dr. Bob and I do not want to ignore any special responsibility remaining still upon us. Quite the contrary; our principal mission today is probably that of helping A.A. form a sound tradition. But how, for example, can we advocate the traditional principle of rotating leadership if we allow the belief to grow that we ought to be permanent exceptions ourselves? Of course, we cannot. Take, for instance, my own situation. It is known that my health is recently improved; that I'm going to a large regional conference. Instantly come warm but most urgent invitations to speak at gatherings all over North America. Most A.A.s being good salesmen, the pressure on me is truly enormous. While it's a wonderful feeling to be so much wanted, these bids do leave me in the middle of an acute dilemma--a real heart-breaker. How, in fairness, can I speak at ten anniversary dinners and refuse 90; how can I make special recordings or telephone talks for all these occasions? Or, again, how can I respond to all the mail I receive; how can I advise hundreds of individuals and groups about their special problems? It is a physical impossibility. Even though I could somehow accomplish all these things, and so remain in the center of A.A. affairs indefinitely, would that be best for A.A. in the long run? Surely you will agree it would not. So the problem of Dr. Bob and me comes down to this: We shall somehow have to decide just what few things we are still specially fitted to do for A.A. and, within the limits of our health, set about them. For my part, I feel I ought to do much more writing: more A.A.Grapevine pieces, more pamphlets and possibly a new book dealing with the vital matter of A.A. unity. This material ought to be widely informative of our developing tradition and of the little understood A.A. General Service Center. Occasionally I would like to appear at the larger regional gatherings for the purpose of discussing these matters with as many A.A.s as possible. Over the next two or three years it will be desirable to broaden the base of our General Service Center here at New York so that it can include a yearly meeting of out-of-town A.A.s with the trustees of The Alcoholic Foundation, the A.A. General Office staff, and The A.A. Grapevine editors, this to be called The General Service Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous. To help construct such a conference will be a real task which may eventually require us to visit a number of our large A.A. centers the country over. For the good of A.A. as a whole these seem the things most needful to be done. If these projects are ever to be finished, I'm sure we can do little else. To succeed we shall need real freedom of decision and few diversions. Hence, we beg your whole-hearted cooperation. Though these assignments are still before us, Dr. Bob and I are now going to confess a deep yearning. As private citizens of A.A., we shall often wish to come and go among you like other people, without any special attention. And while we would like always to keep the wonderful satisfaction of having been among the originators, we hope you will begin to think of us as early A.A.s only, not as "founders." So, can't we join A.A., too? Bill W. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce C." wrote: > > The paper cover of the book "Pass It On" states the following: > > "Here is Bill W., the man everybody knew and nobody knew .... Bill's character was complex and contradictory. Although we always tried to place him on a pedestal, he strove for genuine humility, declining honors and stressing the spiritual value of anonymity. The co-founder of A.A., he was never a member of A.A., because we never allowed him to be." > > The question: Why does the book jacket say that Bill W. "was never a member of A.A."? What is the source for this statement? > > Bruce Cleaver > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7381. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pass It On -- Bill W. never a member of AA? From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2011 8:35:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Baileygc23, Keith "truthfromgood12," Donald Mansell, "mark_area56" - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) On October 1947, Bill W wrote an article in the AA Grapevine entitled "Why Can't We Join AA Too?" http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7380 - - - - From: "truthfromgood12" (kroloson at mindspring.com) Bruce, I believe the writer's intent was to express that because of Bill Wilson's fame, he could never enjoy the 'luxury' of anonymity, or put another way, he never benefited from what he and Dr. Bob pioneered for the rest of us. Additionally there is, to me, an implication that he was never 'one among many', or a peer among peers, because he was held up as a leader, pioneer and frankly, most were in awe of him whenever he was encountered, from what I read. You know, 'a legend in our midst' kind of thing. Lastly it occurs to me that, from what I've read, he didn't like to go to meetings in the final years because of this celebrity status. Although it was possible at times for him to attend this meeting or that meeting and go unrecognized in earlier years, his photographs were so widespread that he couldn't go to an AA meeting incognito or anonymously! It is a similar problem for rock stars and actors and politicians, who often attend special meetings set up to protect them from their own celebrity and allow them to be safe for a little while. In His Service, KEITH - - - - From: "mark_area56" (mark at go-concepts.com) I just looked at my copy of "Pass it On" and there is one small thing missing in the statement. The word "member" is italicized, and that made the whole thing clearer in my mind. We always regarded Bill as the "co-founder" and never just a "member" - I read that to mean that WE never let Bill be just a member, WE always treated him as much more than that - our co-founder. Mel B. is still with us, maybe he can respond. In service, Mark - - - - From: "donaldl.mansell" (donaldl.mansell at yahoo.com) Gee, I thought you were a member if you said so. Doesn't matter what others "allow" us. ___________________________________________ Original message #7371 from "Bruce C." (brucecl2002 at yahoo.com) The paper cover of the book "Pass It On" states the following: "Here is Bill W., the man everybody knew and nobody knew .... Bill's character was complex and contradictory. Although we always tried to place him on a pedestal, he strove for genuine humility, declining honors and stressing the spiritual value of anonymity. The co-founder of A.A., he was never a member of A.A., because we never allowed him to be." The question: Why does the book jacket say that Bill W. "was never a member of A.A."? What is the source for this statement? Bruce Cleaver IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7382. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Challenging the Second A in A.A. From: Ann Sjostrom . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2011 4:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Ann Sjostrom in Sweden, Tom Hickcox in Baton Rouge, Jim Robbins, George Cleveland, Jonathan Lanham-Cook, Baileygc - - - - From: Ann Sjostrom (ann.two at gmail.com) Lots of comments on the New York Times web site on this one and many provided an understanding of anonymity that the article has trouble expressing. THE ORIGINAL ARTICLE: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/08/fashion/08anon.html?_r=4&pagewanted=1&sq=a nony\ mous&st=cse&scp=6 [15] COMMENTS ON IT: http://community.nytimes.com/comments/www.nytimes.com/2011/05/08/fashion/08a non.\ html [16] Ann in Sweden - - - - From: Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) From a favorite daily mailing, "When I read the NYTimes story, one of the thoughts that I had about the writer was, 'and if he ever gets to the sixth and seventh steps, he might want to look at ______.' (I'm sure each of you can fill in the blank) 'and it wouldn't be so bad if he read the _and Twelve_ either!"' Tommy H in Baton Rouge - - - - From: "Jim Robbins" (jrobbins1123 at yahoo.com) Someone will need to enlighten me here. The only reason I can even remotely think why anyone would need or want to break their anonymity in AA is ego. AA works and it works well and has for many years. What possible reason can anyone think of that would require a change in our traditions? Wanna sell more books?, Wanna be special and unique? Wanna be politically in tune with the recovery industry? I'm certain I'm not very well informed on this matter. Help me understand this issue more clearly. Page 84 in 12 Steps and 12 Traditions speaks about rationalizing our actions. The Big Book clearly states that selfishness/self-centeredness is a problem. And I believe a conference action requires 75% of all registered groups voting yes to change even a comma or period in Book, Steps or Traditions. Jim R PPG Poulsbo, Washington - - - - From: George Cleveland (clevelandgeorgem at gmail.com) I am reminded of the famous instructions on bottles of the iconic Dr. Bronner's Peppermint Soap: Dilute. Dilute. Dilute. george cleveland - - - - From: Jonathan Lanham-Cook (lanhamcook at gmail.com) I fear Mr. Colman has possibly missed the point? - Whatever the second 'A' was in the beginning it evolved into the backbone of the fellowship and without it we are nothing. Thank God for Anonymity Jonathan L-C :-) - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) Many years ago a book was written by a famous actress, Lillian Roth, entitled, "I'll Cry Tomorrow" (1954). She is supposed to have gone back to drinking. So all this talk about anonymity breaking being new isn't new. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7383. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: challenging the second A in AA -- this isn''t AA history From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2011 3:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Members, The article below was sent to me right after it was published. I do not believe this is AA history. The article contains inaccuracies, conjecture, name-dropping and outright incorrect interpretations of AA traditions and principals. I am troubled anytime someone is quoted as telling me what THEY think "Bill intended." If our members really want to see a cross section of what AA members think about this topic, I would suggest their time would be better spent reading the posted comments (many by anonymous AA members) FOLLOWING this piece of "journalism." In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7384. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pass It On -- Bill W. never a member of AA? From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/18/2011 4:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Pardon, but I have to toss a memory into this discussion. Bill was of course deceased before I began my research into AA history in the mid-1970s, but Lois Wilson was vibrantly alive and we had several interviews at Stepping Stones. One of quite a few vivid memories: I was questioning Lois about this -- had Bill ever been able to be a real "member" of AA since he was so generally recognized as "founder"? Lois granted that it was difficult, though Bill was pretty much accepted on an equal basis in the local group there in Bedford. "But, traveling," I pressed: "or did his earlier travels mean that he was generally recognized everywhere?" Lois granted that that was pretty much how it was, but I saw that little smile beginning at the corners of her mouth, a smile that I had learned meant there was something more here. So I pressed on: "Well, did Bill ever have the experience of going to a meeting where nobody recognized him?" "Yes," Lois allowed. That did happen on rare occasion. After a pause I pursued, "And how did he react to that?" "It really pissed him off," the sweet widow replied with an appreciative chuckle, obviously relishing the recollection. ernie kurtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7385. . . . . . . . . . . . Groups and contacts where AA archivists can meet From: lanhamcook . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/18/2011 4:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi - I've recently taken on the role of archivist for Avon North intergroup in the UK and am kind of flying a little blind as to how best to organise the existing material. I'm looking for ways to link up with other archivists for support. What are some of the groups and websites where I could find other AA archivists to talk with? Many thanks Jonathan (lanhamcook at yahoo.co.uk) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7386. . . . . . . . . . . . Ron Roizen: Marty Mann and the disease concept From: trysh travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/20/2011 10:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ron Roizen has an article out today on *Points: The Blog of the Alcohol and Drugs History Society,* talking about Marty Mann and the Disease Concept in early AA History. Available here: http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/cherry-picking-the-history-of -the\ -alcoholism-movement-1/. [17] Trysh Travis ____________________________________________ "Cherry-Picking the History of the Alcoholism Movement" (1) Posted on May 20, 2011 by ronroizen9 in Points: The Blog of the Alcohol and Drugs History Society Sometimes useful pieces of historical evidence may be found lying around in plain sight. A case in point concerns the relationship between Alcoholics Anonymous and the disease concept of alcoholism. In 2002, Ernest Kurtz, A.A.'s distinguished academic historian, published a well-argued article asserting that the disease concept of alcoholism was not one of A.A.'s core philosophical commitments (2). Yet -- as Kurtz also noted -- the disease concept has been part of A.A.'s operational vernacular for a long time. Sociologist Annette R. Smith http://hindsfoot.org/kas1.html has recently suggested that the acceptance of the disease concept is a crucial step in a new A.A. member's conversion to an alcoholic identity (3). If both Kurtz and Smith are correct -- and I believe they are -- then how did an idea that is not part of the group's core philosophy nevertheless become a central element in A.A.'s actual praxis? Haggard and Jellinek's 1942 Opus (Never to be a Major Motion Picture) A key part of the answer lies in the promotional campaign of Mrs. Marty Mann. In 1944, Mann was employed by Howard W. Haggard and E.M. Jellinek at the Yale Center of Alcohol Studies to promote the disease concept to the American public. The Yale group's ultimate aim for Mann's campaign was the establishment of a single-disease advocacy organization for alcoholism treatment and research enterprises -- an organization not unlike the American Cancer Society or the American Lung Association. This advocacy group, Yale leadership hoped, would in due course provide a stream of donations for the support of their own alcohol-related research. The Yale group's plan for Mann doubtless sprang in large part from a report prepared by Dwight Anderson for the Research Council on Problems of Alcohol, later published in a 1942 article titled "Alcohol and Public Opinion" (4). Anderson argued that the new scientific approach to alcohol-related problems proffered by the Research Council (and, by extension, the Yale group) needed a new symbol to differentiate itself unmistakably from the old vying "dry" and "wet" camps of the previous era. The idea that the alcoholic was "a sick man," Anderson contended, would perform very nicely as that new symbol. Yet Mann's campaign was dogged by a crucial ambiguity. She was widely known within and without A.A. as a member of that organization; as Michelle McClellan has recently pointed out here, she was sometimes touted as A.A.'s first woman member. She was also a popular and beloved figure and speaker within A.A. Not surprisingly, therefore, it was not always clear to listeners whether her disease concept advocacy was an element of A.A.'s belief system, or whether she was speaking entirely on behalf of her National Committee for Education on Alcoholism (NCEA), or the Yale group. Either way, the disease concept became a cause célèbre in the late 1940s and over the decade of the 1950s. But what might have been Mann's view of alcoholism qua disease prior to 1944 and before she was hired by the Yale group? As it happens, there is a convenient source that sheds a little light on this question. Journalist Jack Alexander published a celebrated article on A.A. in the March 1, 1941 issue of The Saturday Evening Post. More than any other previous event, Alexander's article put A.A. on the map of U.S. national consciousness. An A.A. General Service Office newsletter recently noted that following the Post article's publication, "⦠A.A. would suddenly triple its membership and be well on the way to becoming a national institution" (5). Is That You, Marty Mann? Mrs. Marty Mann made a cameo appearance in Alexander's famous 1941 article, under the pseudonym "Sarah Martin." Before I summarize Mann's cameo, however, a word of caution is in order. Whatever Mann conveyed in Alexander's article was of course filtered through Alexander's consciousness, his goals for his article, and his prose preferences. Hence, Mann's remarks and perspective should be evaluated with a dose of wariness on the reader's part. That said, it is notable that the word "disease" did not appear in Mann's cameo; nor did she use the occasion to advance the disease concept of alcoholism. Neither, incidentally, did the word "disease" appear anywhere in Alexander's 6,500-plus word article; nor did the words "malady," "illness," or "sickness"(6). I don't think it's too much of a stretch to believe that the Marty Mann of the post-1944 disease concept campaign -- had she been magically transported back in time to her 1941 interview with Alexander -- would have enthusiastically hawked the disease concept to him. Alexander confined his account of Mann to her drinking history, her futile efforts to limit her drinking, and her descent into the sequelae of alcohol excess. His account included mention of Mann's jump or fall from a first floor window, landing face-first on a Paris sidewalk. This event required "⦠six months of bone setting, dental work, and plastic surgery." Alexander's narrative handling of Mann's story fit into his overall approach to the Alcoholics Anonymous phenomenon. Alexander stressed the prickliness and resistance-to-change of alcoholics as personality characteristics, their emotional immaturity, their escapism through alcohol, and, as well, the all-important knowingness of other (now recovering) alcoholics in breaking through the active alcoholic's barriers to recovery. About the commencement of Mann's alcoholic recovery Alexander wrote only this: Up to this point she had diagnosed her trouble as a nervous breakdown. Not until she had committed herself to several sanitariums did she realize, through reading, that she was an alcoholic.(7) On advice of a staff doctor, she got in touch with an Alcoholics Anonymous group. Today, she has another good job and spends many of her nights sitting on hysterical women drinkers to prevent them from diving out of windows. In her late thirties, Sarah Martin is an attractively serene woman. The Paris surgeons did handsomely by her. Kurtz's analysis of the disease concept's relationship to A.A. thought traced the history of the concept's appearance in authoritative A.A. publications or pronouncements. Sometimes it was the absence of any mention of the disease concept that Kurtz noted. He gave particular attention to the writings of Bill Wilson. Kurtz argued that a careful examination of these sources clearly evidenced A.A.'s preference for a three-fold vision of alcoholism as a physical, mental, and spiritual problem -- with an emphasis on A.A.'s preoccupation with the spiritual dimension. Mann's cameo in Alexander's famous article did not fit the "sampling frame" Kurtz employed in gathering data for his analysis -- Alexander's article could hardly be considered an authoritative A.A. publication. Yet, Alexander's article and Mann's cameo provide a nice footnote to the case Kurtz made. Mann's cameo tends to support the view that her vigorous promotion of the disease concept emerged in 1944 and not directly out of her early A.A. experience (8). Too bad we don't have more primary material on Mann's views on the disease concept of alcoholism before 1944. In any case, the fame of Alexander's 1941 article within A.A. circles will, I trust, justify my suggestion that Mann's cameo was "lying around in plain sight" for use in relation to Kurtz's bold thesis. Notes: (1) I thank Bill White for his insightful comments on a previous draft of this commentary. (2) Kurtz, Ernest, "Alcoholics Anonymous and the Disease Concept of Alcoholism," Alcoholism Treatment Quarterly 20 (3&4):5-39, 2002. (3) Smith, Annette R., The Social World of Alcoholics Anonymous: How it Works New York, Lincoln, Shanghai: iUniverse, Inc. 2007. (4) Anderson, Dwight, "Alcohol and Public Opinion," Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol 3:376-392, 1942. (5) "Jack Alexander Gave A.A. Its First Big Boost," Box 459[:] News and Notes from the General Service Office of A.A., 54(1):4-5, (February-March) 2008. (6) Kurtz (2002), in another connection, made the same point about Alexander's article. (7) Incidentally, I have disputed Mann's claims regarding when she first heard the term or learned about "alcoholism." See: "Where Did Mrs. Marty Mann Learn Alcoholism Was A Disease and Why Should It Matter?" Ranes Report: Roizen's Alcohol News & Editorial Service No. 7 [1997]. (8) For more on the relationship between of Anderson's 1942 article and the development of Mann's campaign, see my "In Search of the Mysterious Mrs. Marty Mann: An Evolving and (Hopefully) Collaborative Enterprise," n.d., at http://www.roizen.com/ron/mann.htm IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7387. . . . . . . . . . . . Disease concept: diffusion and confusion query From: Ron Roizen . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/25/2011 11:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, A colleague and I have been having a little debate. I wonder if the list would care to comment on these two questions: (1) How much, if at all, did the rise to prominence of the disease concept of alcoholism in the late 1940s and the decade of the 1950s percolate into the belief system of A.A. members and their conceptions of alcoholism? (2) How much, if at all, did confusion surrounding Mrs. Marty Mann's disease-concept campaign of advocacy in this period spread commitment to the disease concept in A.A.'s membership? By "confusion" I mean chiefly that A.A. members may not have been entirely certain whether Mann's pro-disease concept advocacy was a legitimate part of A.A.'s belief system or whether she was promoting the concept solely for the purposes of her National Committee for Education on Alcoholism (later NCA)? Comments on these questions much appreciated! Ron Roizen Wallace, Idaho (ronroizen at frontier.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7388. . . . . . . . . . . . The letters cited in the book As Bill Sees It From: Maria Orozco . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/22/2011 4:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII in the book As Bill Sees It, on page 198 at the bottom, it has Letter, 1958. Can anyone please tell me where can I find out more about this letter? That is, who wrote it, to whom it was written, and the rest of what was in that letter? Thanks, Maria IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7389. . . . . . . . . . . . Connections between Bill W., Lucille Kahn, and Edgar Cayce? From: kodom2545 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/23/2011 4:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have more questions about Lucille Kahn and Edgar Cayce and their association with LSD experiments and psychic experiments, together with the possible connections between Bill Wilson and some of what Kahn and Cayce were involved in. In Silkworth.net at http://silkworth.net/aahistory_names/namesd.html there is a passage on Devoe B. which talks about these people. I don't quite know what this entry in Silkworth.net means, or who Devoe B. was. But I am curious as to whether some of the connections here might tell us more of some possible connection between Bill Wilson and the famous psychic Edgar Cayce. The Silkworth.net passage reads as follows: "Devoe B. - Husband of Anne B.; meditation group met his house Chappaqua; Friday meeting once help Bill cope isolation A.A.; Bill, Lois, Nell Wing, Devoe B., Gerald Heard, Aldous Huxley, Dave D. David & Lucille Kahn, Edgar Cayce attended (G 75-76)" ____________________________________________ From G.C. the moderator: the reference to G 75-76 at the bottom is presumably a reference to pages 75-76 of Nell Wing's book, "Grateful to Have Been There," but apparently to the first (1992) edition, since I cannot find this material on those pages of my second (1998) edition. For more on Lucille Kahn see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucille_Kahn For more on Edgar Cayce see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Cayce - - - - Message #6934 from (kodom2545 at yahoo.com) I was reading a biography of the American psychic Edgar Cayce (American Prophet by Sidney Kirkpatrick) and I came across a couple of familiar names who were considered among his best friends. Can anyone help me obtain information on Lucille or her husband Dave's relationship with Bill Wilson. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucille_Kahn Also, in Kirkpatrick's book Mr. Cayce was said to have given a reading for Frank Sieberling of Akron, Ohio, the founder of Goodyear. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Seiberling God Bless, Kyle - - - - Message #6935 from George Cleveland (clevelandgeorgem at gmail.com) I have been intrigued by the possibility of a connection with Edgar Cayce and Bill Wilson. It seems unlikely that Bill would not have at least sought a reading. All Cayce readings are well documented but are all numbered. So from their archives I think it would be difficult to ascertain which reading may have been Bill's. Maybe there is anecdotal evidence elsewhere?? However, Cayce did weigh in on alcoholism. There's an interesting overview here: http://www.edgarcayce.org/are/holistic_health/data/pralco3.html Curiouser and curiouser. George Cleveland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7390. . . . . . . . . . . . Traditions written 1945 or 1946? Why does 12x12 change the date? From: Lester Gother . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/20/2011 4:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello group, In the 12 x 12 tradition 4, the 3rd paragraph, the first sentence reads: "When A. A.'s traditions were first published in 1945 ..." The question is the date 1945. The first through the fifteenth printings show 1945, the 29th printing in 1985 reads 1946. Can someone comment on the background of this change? I always thought the traditions were written in 1946. AA Love and Service Lester G New Jersey IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7391. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pass It On -- Bill W. never a member of AA? From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/18/2011 5:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Let's remember how Bill Borchert handled this topic in his movie "MY NAME IS BILL" a few years back. In it, Bill was rather perturbed that when he and Lois decided to stop in at a Fellowship meeting one evening during a trip and they sat in the rear of the room. Bill exclaimed to Lois to the effect ... "They don't even recognize me," and she comforted him. As we know, Bill Borchert says that he knew Lois very well and spent considerable time at Stepping Stones, so it provides some credence to the fact that Bill W rather enjoyed ... and expected ... notoriety. Les Cole Colorado Springs, Colorado IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7392. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Traditions written 1945 or 1946? Why does 12x12 change the date? From: bernadette macleod . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/26/2011 8:15:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On page 306 of our book Pass It On, mid-paragraph it is stated "they (Traditions) were first published in the April 1946 issue of the Grapevine." Earlier in Chapter Nineteen of the book, it states that after Jack Alexander's article in the Saturday Evening Post on March 1, 1931, the New York office was constantly fielding calls, similar in nature, about the functioning of the groups. The "Twelve Points to Assure Our Future", which the Traditions were originally named, was Bill W.'s response to these emerging difficulties. Bernadette M. King City Group King City, Ontario, Canada - - - - From: lgother@optonline.net (lgother at optonline.net) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 Subject: [Traditions written 1945 or 1946? Why does 12x12 change the date? Hello group, In the 12 x 12 tradition 4, the 3rd paragraph, the first sentence reads: "When A. A.'s traditions were first published in 1945 ..." The question is the date 1945. The first through the fifteenth printings show 1945, the 29th printing in 1985 reads 1946. Can someone comment on the background of this change? I always thought the traditions were written in 1946. AA Love and Service Lester G New Jersey IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7393. . . . . . . . . . . . Traditions written 1945 or 1946? Why does 12x12 change the date? From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/26/2011 11:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Lester wrote > Can someone comment on the background of this change? I always thought the traditions were written in 1946. The first issue of the AAGV was June 1944 and in June 1945 Bill W. became editorial adviser and agreed to write articles. He wrote a series which addressed the relations of the A.A. to his group, to AA as a whole and to the place of AA in society. He also addressed the problems of money, leadership and authority. In the April 1946 issue of the AAGV, Bill wrote an article titled Twelve Suggested Points for A.A. Tradition and they were set down in what we term the long form and they were numbered. So, while some of the articles by Bill were written in 1945 the naming of them as Twelve Points of Tradition took place in April 1946. Jim B. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7394. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Disease concept: diffusion and confusion query From: Charley Bill . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/26/2011 1:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 1. I don't understand your question. Since the disease concept of alcoholism is completely and accurately described, albeit in contemporary terms, in "The Doctor's Opinion," an integral part of the basic text of AA; it should have been the basis of the concept of alcoholism held by the members at that time and since. Perhaps your question could be restated like this: The disease concept of alcoholism was first widely spread by its inclusion in the book, Alcoholics Anonymous. How much effect did this have on the belief systems of the general public in the U.S. in the 1040s and 50s? I don't go back that far, but by the late '60s when I arrived, we were taught the disease concept in AA, right away. I did hear Marty Mann give a talk on alcoholism at the Navy's alcoholism clinic in Long Beach, California, sometime in the early '70s. As I recall, she was then regarded as an emissary of Bill Wilson and Alcoholics Anonymous with the mission of securing support for the cause of alcoholism treatment in ways that AA could not. It was a great talk and she had a fine message. (I think it was her Primer on Alcoholism.) But her smoking indicated she had not recovered from her addictions. She was completely enslaved by tobacco. When Dr Joe Zuska asked her to put out her cigarette as they entered the hospital, the looked him in the face and said, "Joe Zuska, you go to hell." - - - - On 5/25/2011 8:17 PM, Ron Roizen wrote: > > Hi, > > A colleague and I have been having a little debate. I wonder if the > list would care to comment on these two questions: > > (1) How much, if at all, did the rise to prominence of the disease > concept of alcoholism in the late 1940s and the decade of the 1950s > percolate into the belief system of A.A. members and their conceptions > of alcoholism? > > (2) How much, if at all, did confusion surrounding Mrs. Marty Mann's > disease-concept campaign of advocacy in this period spread commitment > to the disease concept in A.A.'s membership? By "confusion" I mean > chiefly that A.A. members may not have been entirely certain whether > Mann's pro-disease concept advocacy was a legitimate part of A.A.'s > belief system or whether she was promoting the concept solely for the > purposes of her National Committee for Education on Alcoholism (later > NCA)? > > Comments on these questions much appreciated! > > Ron Roizen > Wallace, Idaho > > (ronroizen at frontier.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7395. . . . . . . . . . . . Yale School and NCA From: trysh travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/26/2011 9:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ron Roizen is blogging today on the Points blog on the issue of "What Time Would You Like it To Be? Finessing Science at the Yale School and the National Council on Alcoholism." http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/ Trysh Travis ____________________________________________ Points: The Blog of the Alcohol and Drugs History Society http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/ What Time Do You Want it to Be? Finessing Science, Part Two Posted on May 28, 2011 by ttravis In the first segment of this post, Ron Roizen explored the congenial relationship between the free and easy scientific method that prevailed at the Yale School during the late 1940s and Marty Mannâs message-driven National Council on Alcoholism. The second installment in his story brings in another characterâ“ Alcoholics Anonymousâ“ and shows how they all held hands. The A.A. Grapevine Survey Arguably the most notable â“ and perhaps also the most unlikely â“ of these awkward interactions surrounded The A.A. Grapevineâs survey of alcoholismâs symptomatology in 1945. This survey in due course provided the data for E.M. Jellinekâs famous 1946 (8) and 1952 (9) articles describing an alcoholism syndrome. If some speculative historical interpolation may be forgiven â“ because the exact origins of the Grapevine survey are not known: My hunch is that once Marty Mann embarked on marketing the disease concept to the American public she encountered questions about the concept she could not adequately address. Itâs likely, moreover, that when Mann called for backup at the Yale group its scientists had little help to offer. Mann may have also turned to her psychiatrist friend, Harry Tiebout, for help. Her request, in turn, may have prompted the writing of Tieboutâs 1945 article on the syndrome of alcohol addiction (10). Yet Mann was probably not entirely satisfied with Tieboutâs article, as its symptomatology took a psychiatric (rather than a physiologic) approach toward alcoholism. Thus, Mann may have soon come to the conclusion that she needed to collect her own scientific data on alcoholismâs symptomatology â“ in what would become the 1945 Grapevine survey. Jellinek â“ slyly, I suggest â” alluded to the homegrown origins of the Grapevine survey and a homegrown rationale for its undertaking in the introductory pages of his 1946 article. âMembers of Alcoholics Anonymous,â wrote Jellinek, "see their own experience duplicated day in, day out by the many inebriates who come to them for help. Again and again they hear about those drinking incidents and behaviors which in their own cases seemed significant to them. The older members of that informal organization of recovered alcoholics, no doubt, would like to see some systematization of the knowledge derivable from the drinking history. It is, presumably, because of this that the Grapevine, now the official organ of Alcoholics Anonymous, published in its May 1945 issue a questionnaire designed for members of Alcoholics Anonymous (p. 3, emphasis added)." I see slyness here on Jellinekâs part because he attributed the Grapevine surveyâs origins to a broadly diffuse alleged desire among âolder membersâ of A.A. for a systematization of their collective drinking experience. That doesnât quite ring true. A more candid description of the reasons behind the survey might have noted Mannâs campaignâs unmet need for more scientific stiffening for the disease concept. Jellinek, also in the 1946 article, expressed diffidence about undertaking the analysis of data arguably collected in a more or less unscientific fashion. âAfter the questionnaires were returned,â he wrote, "the editors of the Grapevine requested me to prepare a statistical analysis of the data. I have undertaken this work with great interest but also with many misgivings. Statistical thinking should not begin after a survey or an experiment has been completed but should enter into the first plans for obtaining the data. In the questionnaire under consideration this requirement was neglected (p. 5)." It is well to step back and take in the irony attaching to the Grapevinesurveyâs story. Should the known part of this story and my guesswork prove more or less correct, then: First, Yale scientists hired a publicist to promote the disease concept. Then the concept turned out to lack good scientific legs. The publicist, in turn, launched her own survey study â” in order to provide rudimentary data buttressing alcoholismâs disease character. Next, a Yale scientist reluctantly agreed to analyze the data. He published two papers stemming from the survey (1946 and 1952). In due course a chart showing alcoholismâs symptom progression (in the 1952 paper) became widely distributed within the alcoholism movement. âThis chart,â wrote Robin Room (8), âparticularly as adapted by [Max] Glatt, is probably the most widely diffused artifact of the alcoholism movementâs disease concept.â Quite a story. Summing Up Players in all institutions engage in back-stage communications about how best to pursue their aims and the limits of appropriate actions. The correspondence Iâve made use of in this post sheds new light on Mannâs organizationâs weak rhetorical position respecting the alcohol science it sought from Yale. OâConnorâs correspondence with Straus and with Bacon illuminated the limits of what Yale science could offer on issues that were important to NCAâs broader campaign. Mannâs correspondence with Haggard, on the other hand, showed how she sought to shape Yale science along lines that were useful â“ or at least not obstructive â“ to her campaignâs goals. The story of the Grapevine survey suggested how the role relationship between Mannâs group and the Yale group could become partly reversed. Mann, in all probability, designed and carried out the data-gathering for this study â“ a scientific task the Yale group might have undertaken. There are no one-way streets in this picture of interaction concerning science between NCA and Yale. Not-so-hard science could be finessed, massaged, or negotiated when the situations and the goals of the two institutions warranted. Notes (8) Jellinek, E.M., âPhases in the Drinking History of Alcoholics: Analysis of a Survey Conducted by the Official Organ of Alcoholics Anonymous, â Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol 7:1-88, 1946. (9) Jellinek, E.M., âPhases of Alcohol Addiction,â Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol 13:673-684, 1952. (10) Tiebout, Harry M., âThe Syndrome of Alcohol Addiction,â Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol 5:535-546, 1945. (11) Yet, and interestingly, Mann cited Tieboutâs 1945 article, and not Jellinekâs 1946 and 1952 articles, as authority for the disease concept claim in her 1950 book, Primer on Alcoholism. (12) Room, Robin G. W., Governing Images of Alcohol and Drug Problems: The Structure, Sources and Sequels of Conceptualizations of Intractable Problems, Ph.D. dissertation, University of California, Berkeley, Sociology, 1978, p. 55. ____________________________________________ AND FURTHER ALONG ON THE SAME WEB PAGE: What Time Do You Want It To Be? Finessing Science at the National Council on Alcoholism and at Yale Posted on May 26, 2011 by ronroizen9 Over the course of the second half of the 20th century Mrs. Marty Mann and her National Council on Alcohol (NCA) became the best known public advocates of the disease concept of alcoholism in the United States. Mannâs great campaign, however, harbored a vexing rhetorical weakness. All the News that's Fit to Print From its outsetâ“with NCAâs (1) launch in the autumn of 1944â“Mannâs organization purported to convey ostensibly sound scientific knowledge and facts about alcoholism to the American public. Mann was a publicist, not a scientist; more to the point, scientific knowledge about alcoholism (including even whether such a phenomenon might confidently be said to exist) was scant and unreliable. This awkward behind-the-scenes circumstance created some equally awkward and unlikely back-stage interactions between NCA and the Yale Center of Alcohol Studies.NCA relied on the Yale group for scientific support. Yetâ“as contemporary correspondence shows â“Yale scientists werenât always ready with the goods; neither did the Yale groupâs scientific work always comport with Mannâs groupâs aims. Uncertain Science and Cross-Influences One of Mannâs objectives in NCA was to shift the American publicâs image of the alcoholic from that of the skid row derelict to that of the average Joe or Jane. Some sort of credible statistical data were needed to support such a shift. What had Yale science to offer? In 1957, Mollie OâConnor, NCA executive assistant and fact-checker, wrote to Robert Straus (formerly at the Yale group but by then at the University of Kentucky), asking permission to use Strausâs estimate that 10 to 15 percent of alcoholics âwere of the visible skid row typeâ¦â (2). Strausâs reply was the soul of candor. âI have been trying to recall,â wrote Straus, âjust when and under what circumstances I might have made such an estimateâ¦.To my knowledge this factor has never been counted or measured and any statistics must necessarily be guessesâ (3). Straus closed his reply to OâConnor with a broad disclaimer: "In short, what I am really getting at is the fact that I have no legitimate basis for providing statistics on the relative percentages of skid row or other alcoholics. Were you to ask me for my opinion, I would say that probably no more than 15 to 20 percent of our problem drinkers represent the skid row group. If you feel that this would have any value, you may quote this as a personal opinion." In a similar vein, NCA wished to lower the age distribution of alcoholics, thus also eroding the image of the aging skid row bum. OâConnor wrote to Selden D. Bacon in 1957 asking permission to quote from an article in which heâd written that three out of four alcoholics were between the ages of 35 and 55 (4). Baconâs reply cannot have offered OâConnor much confidence in his estimate: "I suppose itâs all right for you to quote the age-range figure. Nobody knows, and this sounds just as worthwhile as many other statements which purport to be factual. I think the statement would be somewhat better if it started with âprobably,â but this might so weaken it for your purposes that you would prefer to have it as it is in your letter. So, go ahead and, if anybody challenges it, weâll just counter-challenge them to produce a better figure (5)." Marty Mann sometimes tried to influence the future path of scientific research at the Yale group. In 1948, for example, she penned a detailed letter to Howard W. Haggard arguing that the group should do more physiologically oriented research on alcoholism. Near the close of this missive, Mann wrote: "Incidentally, I want to add here, that I feel strongly the need for more and more physiological research under the Yale plan. I get more questions on that, than on any other phase of our work excepting on how we help them to do something ([6] original emphasis)." On another occasion, Mann complained bitterly in a letter to Haggard that that a Yale group author was employing the term âdrinking habitâ in a forthcoming Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol article. She wrote in part: "On the surface, this perhaps does not seem very important, but from my point of view, it could scarcely be more important. The entire burden of my talks and efforts is directed toward a new concept of alcoholism and a new and more enlightened attitude toward its victims. This concept and this attitude depend [sic] very heavily upon phraseology, for after all, words embody concepts. The hardest job I have is to overcome the too familiar phraseology of the ubiquitous âdrysâ a phraseology which bears in its train the associations they have given to certain phrases. Since practically all school teaching on this subject has been under their control for at least fifty years, most adults have at some time learned the typical temperance teachings, and whether or not they agree, the use of certain phrases inevitably calls up some of these associations (7)." Up Next: The Unsound Science of the AA Grapevine Survey. Notes: (1) At its founding, Mannâs organization was the âNational Committee for Education on Alcoholismâ; its legatee is the âNational Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence.â (2) Mollie OâConnor to Robert Straus, Nov. 1, 1957, Box 1, Folder âFacts onâ¦,â Special Collections, Syracuse University Library. (3) Straus to OâConnor, Nov. 7, 1957, Box 1, Folder âFacts onâ¦,â Special Collections, Syracuse University Library. (4) OâConnor to Selden D. Bacon, Nov. 14, 1957, Box 1, Folder âFacts onâ¦,â Special Collections, Syracuse University Library. (5) Bacon to OâConnor, Nov. 18, 1957, Box 1, Folder âFacts onâ¦,â Special Collections, Syracuse University Library. (6) Mann to Bacon, Aug. 10, 1948, Box 5, Folder âYale Summer School,â Special Collections, Syracuse University Library. (7) Mann to Bacon, Feb. 26, 1946, Box 5, Folder âYale Summer School,â Special Collections, Syracuse University Library. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7396. . . . . . . . . . . . obit - John G. Ackerlind (1921-2011) From: aadavidi . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2011 3:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A man of great character and love, born September 25, 1921 in Malmo, Sweden, died May 6, 2011 at 6:20 PM surrounded by family and friends. Served in Swedish Royal Airforce during WWII. He met Karin on June 6, 1944. Married 64 years. They emigrated to America in 1948 eventually settling in Laguna Beach and finally in Laguna Woods. He is survived by wife Karin; brother Carl (Britta,) their son Mike; sister Margareta her children Anita and Robert, and grand daughters Alison and Natalie. Children: Carolyn, daughter Kaisa (Brian); Claudia (Craig); Katrina(Ken) son Michael, daughter Amy(Cody), and two great grand children, Trey and Harper; son John-Eric (Jayne). For the last 48 years of his life John evolved to become a highly loved and respected member and a much loved speaker in the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous. He epitomized the finest ideal of AA - making sure that everyone, especially the befuddled newcomer, knew that they were loved. Memorial Service to be held May 14 at 10 AM Laguna Presbyterian Church, 415 Forest Avenue, Laguna Beach. http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/latimes/obituary.aspx?page=lifestory&pid=15 1166\ 418 [18] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7397. . . . . . . . . . . . Stepping Stones From: Michael . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/28/2011 12:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi all, I'm going to visit Stepping Stones next week (June 7th) and was hoping I could get sort of a "must see" list from some AAHL members. I've visited Stepping Stones once before and there's just so much to see and experience that I knew I was passing by some fascinating stuff that I just wasn't knowledgeable about. I know things like the desk in Wits End was Hanks and that Father Ed's cane and crucifix are there also, but I'm sure there are a lot of things like that that I'm not aware of, so… any tips for getting the most out of this next visit would be greatly appreciated! Thanks, Mike Margetis Brunswick, Maryland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7398. . . . . . . . . . . . AA History tourism locations From: joe . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2011 10:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I ran across a reference to a list of AA tourism locations put together by some past and present members of this forum. The link is no longer there, so I thought I would pose the question to the group. If you were travelling to locations across the USA, what famous AA sites would you recommend visiting? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7399. . . . . . . . . . . . Ron Roizen on Max Glatt From: trysh travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2011 11:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ron Roizen is blogging about Max Glatt and the disease concept at Points this evening: http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/. Trysh Travis IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7400. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Disease concept: diffusion and confusion query From: Joanna . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2011 10:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello all - I just want to respond to something I see here in this first post by Charley Bill - and of course this does not have to do with the question being raised, but I feel that it is important enough to be addressed. "But her smoking indicated she had not recovered from her addictions. She was completely enslaved by tobacco. When Dr Joe Zuska asked her to put out her cigarette as they entered the hospital, the looked him in the face and said, "Joe Zuska, you go to hell."" Regarding this point: I am just going to clarify here that we are ALCOHOLICS Anonymous. We don't claim to have a solution for ALL addictions - just one for ALCOHOLISM. I feel this is important to note. Bill W died of emphysema due to smoking as well. Read the last portion of A VIsion For You regarding this - Joanna W. Area 10 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7401. . . . . . . . . . . . Source of quote: newcomers are the lifeblood of the program From: royslev . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2011 12:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm pretty sure I did read somewhere in Bill's writings the statement that "newcomers are the lifeblood of the program." I scanned through "As Bill Sees It" but I couldn't find it there. Could someone give me a quick steer toward the source of this quote? or was I hallucinating sober? I know that the Big Book says on page 89 that "frequent contact with newcomers and with each other is the bright spot of our lives," but this is not the quote I was looking for. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7402. . . . . . . . . . . . Source of Carl Jung quote From: royslev . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2011 1:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Wayne Dyer quoted Carl Jung as saying "One of the main functions of formalized religion is to protect people against a direct experience of God," but he did not indicate the name of the book and the page number where Jung himself made that statement. There are now hundreds of places on the internet where this quotation is cited, but in every one of them which I have checked, they refer only to Wayne Dyer's work. They never give any reference to a work by Carl Jung where we could read in context what Jung himself had written on that subject. Can anybody give me the name of the work written by Carl Jung, with page number etc., where Jung made that statement? -- if in fact he ever did say that. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7403. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: correct date of Jack Alexander article From: Gary Neidhardt . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/30/2011 10:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Of course the Jack Alexander article was dated March 1, 1941, and Bernadette was only guilty of a typo when she wrote "1931." Gary Neidhardt Sober at the Summit Lawrenceville, GA - - - - From: bernadette macleod Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 8:15 AM Subject: RE: Traditions written 1945 or 1946? Why does 12x12 change the date? <<... in Chapter Nineteen of the book [Pass It On], it states that after Jack Alexander's article in the Saturday Evening Post on March 1, 1931, the New York office was constantly fielding calls, similar in nature, about the functioning of the groups. The "Twelve Points to Assure Our Future", which the Traditions were originally named, was Bill W.'s response to these emerging difficulties.>> Bernadette M. King City Group King City, Ontario, Canada IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7404. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Stepping Stones: photos From: Bryan Reid . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2011 12:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I hope these links work for you. These are the pictures I took on my visit 6 years ago, which I put up on my Facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1096851744752.2016691.1330351527&l =848\ 1cb7777 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291103&l=9c4d6b989d&id=1330351527 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291104&l=43babe8a35&id=1330351527 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291118&l=481e5cfc2a&id=1330351527 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291117&l=bb042c9adb&id=1330351527 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291108&l=8b2c585958&id=1330351527 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291116&l=be3c7591c6&id=1330351527 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291109&l=91a5f8959a&id=1330351527 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291111&l=1f4e091c0c&id=1330351527 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291110&l=4af67f4fbd&id=1330351527 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291107&l=de569d6403&id=1330351527 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291115&l=dbdbe48105&id=1330351527 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291105&l=f5f82b6bb1&id=1330351527 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291106&l=da392c8d60&id=1330351527 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291119&l=60ae54f139&id=1330351527 The pictures and captions show what the highlights were for me. I would recommend allowing a MINIMUM of 30-45 minutes for the library upstairs. It is a veritable history of AA, and to a lesser extent Al-Anon. Before she died, Lois put little numbered stickers on all the framed pictures and letters. Then she put up notes that identified what each item was, what it was about, who was in it, etc. It was a great experience for me and I loved every second of it. It was living history. Enjoy your visit, Michael. It's wonderful. Bryan IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7405. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Stepping Stones From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/30/2011 11:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Mike: Take a look at the picture on the wall opposite the desk. It is of Mark Whalon and Charlie Richie. Mark of course was Bill's important mentor as a kid even though he was 10 years older. Mark was the early influence for Bill to see the "other side" of society than just the small-town culture. Mark remained a very close friend throughout their lives. Charlie was the Burnham caretaker at the Camp at Emerald Lake and the residence in Manchester Village. As a child (1932-33), I knew them both, but I do not have a picture of either. Maybe you could take a pic of that pic and let me know. Please give my regards to Annah. Les Cole Colorado Springs, CO elsietwo@msn.com (personal) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7406. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: obit - John G. Ackerlind (1921-2011) From: John Moore . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2011 9:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sad to see Johnny's passing. Johnny Ackerlind was my first sponsor in 1971 in Southern California. A new AA buddy took me to my second meeting in Laguna Beach, the Wednesday nite speaker meeting that Johnny regularly attended. Johnny said yes and invited me to his home in Santa Ana where we sat and talked. He offered to help me any way he could and it was my first close look at a drinker just like me, who had gotten sober and put his life back together in AA. He was a regular at the Men's meeting at Canyon Club and I am sure he there the night I had to confess to "borrowing" money from the treasury. I learned a lot about amends that week LOL and about grasping and developing a manner of living that demands rigorous honesty. Johnny was a wonderful witty speaker. He was invited to talk quite often and his story was hilarious, and serious. He was a gentle soul and he held the lantern for us during his 48 years of sobriety. Two of Johnny's talks can be downloaded from my service site http://aatalks.4shared.com/ and talks are listed in alpha order. or you can download directly by clicking link, this was his share in 2009 at Canyon Club in Laguna Beach Cal: https://www.4shared.com/audio/RO-aXmMk/Johnny_A_Laguna_Beach_Cal_at_C.html John M DOS Dec 7 1971 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7407. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Disease concept of alcoholism From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/25/2011 6:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Chuck Parkhurst and Rick Benchoff - - - - From: "Chuck Parkhurst" (ineedpage63 at cox.net) I like to keep it simple and refer to my condition of mind and body using the same terms our book does. That term is not disease. I believe I have an illness and a spiritual malady. I hear many people in meetings talk about their disease making them do this and that and their disease taking them places. It sounds like an excuse for human behavior. I am selfish not because I am alcoholic but because I am selfish. If my alcoholism caused all my problems, they would have went away when I stopped drinking. Sadly, they did not. I work in a LOT of halfway houses and low bottom drunk tanks....that is where I came from. The stigma for alcoholism still exists even though it might not be to the extent that it was in the 30's thru the 70's. I believe using the terminology in the book helps keep the message pure. Instead our message is being watered down and diluted. Our meeting have already become a breeding ground for slogans, hearsay and sayings not only NOT in our book, but contradictory to its message. There is no question I have an illness or condition that will kill me and continues to get worse, even while I am not drinking. I believe I have a daily reprieve and that is based on my relationship to God. I do not need to be reminded about my illness (there will be a time my memory will not be enough) but do have to continue to practice the spiritual disciplines embodied in the steps. These are my further thoughts and experience as to why I think terminology that may sound trivial actually is not. In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst - - - - From: Rick Benchoff (rxichard2nd at yahoo.com) To my fellow AA History-Lovers: I've tried to stay away from the "disease concept" discussion. I'm a "three-hatter." I'm a pharmacist, an addiction treatment professional, as well as an alcoholic. The debate about whether "alcoholism" is a disease will probably never disappear. The WHO and the AMA helped clear the way in getting insurance plans to cover the medical costs of treatment, but convincing non-alcoholics (including many medical professionals) that alcoholism is a disease is like trying to explain the color purple to someone born blind. The Big Book discusses this in a number of places. Alcoholics are bodily and mentally different than non-alcoholics. They'll never "get it." The reason I put the word "alcoholism" in quotation marks is that the DSM-IV terminology for what AA members call alcoholism is "alcohol dependency." It's too bad that the medical profession didn't use the term "disorder." There are many illnesses (a term used in the Big Book) that are labeled as disorders. Two that readily come to mind are attention-deficit disorder and post-traumatic stress disorder. The general public believes that most diseases occur through no fault of the sufferer. Yet in reality most of the health problems (and the biggest killers) in the U.S. today are lifestyle-related. To really stir up things, the U.S. Supreme Court does not consider alcoholism a disease, but a form of "willful misconduct," but I digress once again. Regardless of whether it's called a disease, an illness, a malady, a disorder, or whether it's labeled as alcoholism, alcohol abuse, alcohol addiction, alcohol dependency, dipsomania, etc., the bottom line is that alcohol kills a large number of people who consume it. If that doesn't make it a significant public health issue, I don't know what else to say. Be well and with warm regards to all, Rick B. Hagerstown, Maryland P.S. This Yahoo Group is not a closed, online meeting for alcoholics. Membership in this group is not limited to AA members; it is open to anyone with an interest in AA history. Therefore the discussion about tobacco use, nicotine addiction or related illnesses by people relevant to the topic or to AA's history is not out-of-bounds. The number one preventable cause of premature death in the U.S. -- in alcoholics and nonalcoholics -- is tobacco use. Five times as many people will die from tobacco-related illnesses in the U.S. this year than from alcohol-related illnesses. Since many of AA's early pioneers (and later ones, too) died from tobacco use, it is of historical significance. Joanna has made an important observation about AA's "Singleness of Purpose." However, let me stir up some things. It is interesting to note that the Fifth Tradition states that, "Each group has but one primary purpose - to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers." By inference, this sentence implies that AA groups may have secondary purposes. Hmm... Another interesting thought is that an AA member with significant sobriety may still be suffering, yet alcohol-free, but I digress. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7409. . . . . . . . . . . . Photos of Richard Peabody and Courtenay Baylor From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/5/2011 3:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Gang, Does anyone have a photo of Richard Peabody and/or Courtenay Baylor they could send me? I have a pre-Big Book literature presentation to give and would love Peabody's picture to present along with The Common Sense of Drinking portion of the prentation. Send to: (jax760 at yahoo.com) Thanks and God Bless John Barton IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7410. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA History tourism locations From: Hugh M. . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/1/2011 2:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Hugh M. and Mike Batty - - - - From: "Hugh M." (humbc at shaw.ca) I would visit Dr. Bob's childhood home at 34 Summer Street in St. Johnsbury Vermont. It is off the beaten path, but visiting it made the story of his early years become real to me. Hugh in B.C. - - - - From: Mike Batty (mcbat.t at rogers.com) Four sites stand out in my mind: 1. Dr Bob's home in Akron, Ohio. 2. GSO in New York City. 3. Stepping Stones -- Bill and Lois' final home http://www.steppingstones.org/visiting.html says the "Stepping Stones physical address is 62 Oak Road, Katonah, NY 10536, even though the house itself sits on the Bedford Hills border and Bill and Lois Wilson always referred to their home as being in Bedford Hills. Both are villages of the larger town of Bedford." 4. Bill's Birthplace, (a bed and breakfast) in East Dorset, Vermont A group of us organized a bus trip and did numbers 2, 3 and 4 in an extended weekend. We arrived in East Dorset in time for Bill's Birthday and Picnic which was a real bonus. Of the four, this writer found the most "feel" and history at Stepping Stones. All four are outstanding stops along the way and deserve much more than the time we allotted. Each, I feel, deserves a full day and many returns. In Service Mike Batty Waterloo, On IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7411. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA History tourism locations From: Bent Christensen . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/1/2011 1:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII BENT CHRISTENSEN'S LIST Hi, I was working on it a while ago. I don't think the list is complete, maybe we can finish it together? Place Special note Open for public Location/ State New York NEW YORK CITY: 2nd office 1938-40, 30 Vesey Street 3rd office1940-44, 415 Lexington 6 years missing 4th office 1950-60, 141 East 4th Street 5th office 1960-70, 315 East 45th Street 6th office 1970-92, 468 Park Avenue South 7th office 1992-present, General Services Office & AA Grapevine (Physical Location) 475 Riverside Drive New York, NY 10115 212-870-3400 http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org Meeting Friday at 11:00 YES New York City Towns Hospital, 293 Central Park West CalvaryChurch, 21st Street & Park Avenue South Yes 30 Rockefeller Plaza. Where Bill met "Uncle Dick" Richardson, conduit to John D. Rockefeller. Yes 1335 Avenue of the Americas, New York Hilton, Site of the Bill W. dinner, put on every year by the New York Intergroup since 1945. Yes Madison Avenue & 44th Street, Roosevelt Hotel, Site of over 35 General Service Conferences. Yes Seventh Avenue& 56th Street, Park Omni, Site of General Service Conferences. Yes 38 Livingston Street, Brooklyn, Lois & Bill's home when they were financially rich. No 182 Clinton Street, Brooklyn, Lois & Bills home where Ebby carried the message to Bill No CLOSE TO NEW YORK CITY: Stepping Stones Foundation P.O. Box 452 Bedford Hills, NY 10507 914-232-4822 http://www.steppingstones.org *YES 1st office, 17 Williams Street, Newark, (ask Merton if it still exist) 22 kilometers East of Manhattan 22 mins drive NEAR NEW YORK: Ebby's grave, Albany Rural Cemetery, Cemetery Avenue Menands, NY 12204, 249.45 kilometers north of New York 2 hours 49 mins drive Yes Silkworth's grave, Glenwood Cemetery, Monmouth Pkwy. West Long Branch, NJ84.65 km south of New York, 1 hour 4 mins drive Yes BOSTON: 115 Newbury St.,at the Jacoby Club quarters where the first AA meetings in Boston were held and by whom the early AA in Boston where was strongly influenced, 333.30 kmnorth of Manhattan 3 hours 52 mins drive Richmond Walker who wrote "Twenty-Four Hours a Day" which was the second most read book in early AA lived and got sober in Boston in 1942 VERMONT: The Wilson House P.O. Box 46 East Dorset, 05253 802-362-5524 http://www.wilsonhouse.org *YES Dr. Bob's Birth House in St Johnsbury, Vermont Bill & Lois grave MINNESOTA: 2218 First Avenue South, the worlds oldest Alano Club that's in operation today and the place where Ed Webster in May 1942 started the earliest known example of formal A.A. beginners classes. Yes 6301 Penn Ave S, the Nicollet Group founded by Barry C. the first sober AA member in Minneapolis and Ed Webster the author of "The Little Red Book". The group was based mostly on Dr. Bob's views and is still operating much like the way they did in the 40ties. AKRON: 1. Akron A.A. Archives. Yes 2. St. Thomas Hospital (Yes) 3. Dr. Bob's Office - Society Bank Bldg. No 4. Mayflower Hotel (Yes) 5. Kistler's Donuts (now S.K.) Doesn't exist anymore 6. Dr. Bob's Grave (across from 230 Aqueduct) Yes 7. King School - former site of first A.A. group No 8. Rev. Tunk's Rectory - at Casterton & Edgerton Rds No 9. T. Henry & Clarace Williams' Home - 676 Palisades No 10. Seiberling Gatehouse - Garman Rd. & Portage Path Yes 11. Portage Country Club 12. Dr. Bob's House, 855 Ardmore Avenue, Akron, Ohio 44302, phone 330-864-1935, email http://www.drbobshome.org Yes 13. King School Group - AA group #1, now meeting at First United Church of Christ - Wed., 8 PM closed speaker meeting Yes CLEVELAND: Cleveland central Office YES 2345 Stillman Road, Cleveland Heights -- Albert "Abby" Golricks home where the first meeting was held. (Maybe it doesn't exist anymore.) PHILADELPHIA: Intergroup Office - Good but not great archive YES NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE: The Upper Room headquarters, 1908 Grand Avenue, Nashville, Tennessee 37212 ____________________________________ *YES = Open by appointment X = ved ikke om huset eksisterer endnu. Don't know if the place still exist. Bil fra Akron til New York en dag. Fra New York til East Dorset, Vermont ca. 6 timer i følge Mel http://www.akronaa.org/Archives/map/map.html Afstande Akron New York Vermont San Antonio Akron 715 km 6 timer 49 min 932 km 8 timer 54 min 2372 km 22 timer 40 min New York 444,28 miles 6 timer 49 min 344 km 4 timer 41 min 2950 km 28 timer 12 min Vermont 579,12 miles 8 timer 54 min 213,75 miles 4 timer 41 min 3247 km 31 timer 2 min San Antonio 1.473,89 miles 22 timer 40 min 1 833,05 miles 28 timer 12 min 2.017,59 miles 31 timer 2 min Lokale afstande Manhattan Stepping Stone Silkworths Grave Manhattan 61.80 km 1 timer 4 min 84.65 km 1 timer 4 min Stepping Stone 38.40 miles 1 hour 4 mins Silkworths Grave 52.6 miles 1 hour 4 mins 1 amerikansk mil = 1.609 km AAs 1st meetings 1. Akron 2. New York 3. Cleveland 4. Philadelphia Bent Christensen Valmuevej 17 6000 Kolding Tlf. +45 50 12 17 43 www.synlighjemmeside.dk IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7412. . . . . . . . . . . . The newcomer is the most important person in the room From: Charlie C . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/5/2011 9:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, seeing the post asking about the line that says "newcomers are the lifeblood of the program" and its origins reminded me I have wondered if anyone knows where the line that "the newcomer is the most important person in the room" comes from and has a sense of when it entered AA oral culture. I know it is not from our literature, and I don't think I remember hearing it in my early years in upstate NY in the late '80s, early '90s, but in the time since it seems to have become widespread and often accepted unquestioningly, even though it might seem in conflict with the ideas of comradeship, ego deflation etc. suggested in the Big Book. Charlie Cowling Set a stout hairt tae a stey brae. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7413. . . . . . . . . . . . Anonymity break, removing non-God meetings from Toronto list From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/8/2011 2:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII (1) In the following article in yesterday's paper, Pete W. (past delegate and trustee) broke his anonymity with a full face photograph along with giving his last name. (2) The article went on to describe how Toronto's two secular AA groups -- Beyond Belief and We Agnostics -- had their listings removed from Toronto's official directory of AA meetings. - - - - Does religion belong at AA? Fight over 'God' splits Toronto AA groups by Leslie Scrivener, Feature Writer thestar.com Fri Jun 03 2011 Photo at the top of this article taken by Steve Russell of the Toronto Star, caption below the photo says: "Catholic priest Fr. Pete Watters [full face photograph standing in front of a stained glass window] has been sober for 50 years. He says belief in a higher power, God, is essential to getting sober in Alcoholics Anonymous. Photographed at St. Andrew Church in Oakville on June 3, 2011." THE TEXT OF THE ARTICLE: It uses "fellowship" to help chronic drinkers quit the bottle. But there is little fellowship in a schism that splintered the Alcoholics Anonymous umbrella group in the GTA this week. At issue is this question: Do alcoholics need God? On Tuesday, Toronto's two secular AA groups, known as Beyond Belief and We Agnostics, were removed or "delisted" from the roster of local meetings. They've disappeared from the Toronto AA website and will not be in the next printed edition of the Toronto directory. The dispute started when Beyond Belief posted an adapted version of AA's hallowed "Twelve Steps" on the Toronto website. They removed the word "God" from the steps, which are used as a kind of road map to help drinkers achieve sobriety. "They took issue with a public display of secular AA," says Joe C., who founded Beyond Belief, Toronto's first agnostic AA group, 18 months ago. (In keeping with AA's tradition of anonymity, members are identified by first names only.) It proved popular enough that a second group started up last fall; it took its name from a chapter in the AA bible entitled Alcoholics Anonymous, commonly known as the Big Book. The group, We Agnostics, had only recently completed the paperwork to be part of AA before being booted out. "What is unusual is that this didn't happen in some backwater, but that it happened in a liberal, democratic, pluralistic place like Toronto," says Joe. The name of God appears four times in the Twelve Steps and echoes the period in which they were written -- the 1930s. It invites those seeking sobriety to turn themselves over to God, who will remove their "defects of character." They go on to speak of God's will for the recovering alcoholic. "They (the altered Twelve Steps) are not our Twelve Steps," says an AA member who was at Tuesday's meeting of the coordinating body known as the Greater Toronto Area Intergroup. "They've changed them to their own personal needs. They should never have been listed in the first place." He says that in the early days of AA, meetings ended with the Lord's Prayer. "That has obviously stopped in all but hard-core groups. We welcome people with open arms. In our group we still say the Lord's Prayer. One guy was uncomfortable with that. I told him to just step back when we pray. He does. He's doing what he needs to do for him." The issue of AA's use of God has come up frequently over the past 50 years. For the most part, the organization -- which claims 113,000 groups around the world -- permits other agencies to imitate its program, but not to call themselves Alcoholics Anonymous. Other secular organizations, including Save our Selves (or Secular Organizations for Sobriety), offer addiction help similar to AA. But with some 100,000 members in 2005, SOS is far less popular than AA, which reports a membership of about two million. In Toronto alone, there are 500 AA meetings a week. "This is not the first we've gone up against bigotry," says Larry of We Agnostics. "This has been an ongoing struggle in North America." One man wept in dismay over the delisting at Beyond Belief's Thursday night meeting at the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education on Bloor Street West. Thirty-two people, mostly men, sat at desks in a classroom. "I do believe in God," he said after the meeting. "But you don't need to believe in God to recover and I don't think it's appropriate at AA." The meeting opened with a statement that said, in keeping with AA tradition, the group did not endorse or oppose either religious belief or atheism. "Our only wish is to ensure suffering alcoholics that they can find sobriety in AA without having to accept anyone else's beliefs, or having to deny their own." "I've tried AA meetings and I couldn't get past the influence of right-wing Christianity," said a big, Liam Neeson look-alike. "Last night I went to a meeting and it was like a sermon again," he told the group. "I felt I should quit. "But someone told me, 'hey, go downtown, there's an atheist/agnostic meeting.' So I thought I thought I'd give AA one last chance and I came here." There's a moment's pause. "Welcome," the group said. One of the members, Roger, took issue with AA's concept of the "God of your understanding." "First, there is a gender problem (several of the steps refer to Him). But more importantly, a creator God with a personal interest in me doesn't fit well with my understanding of how the cosmos works." In January, Rev. Pete Watters, 82, and a Catholic priest, celebrated 50 years of sobriety with AA. Several thousand came to an Oakville union hall to celebrate his anniversary. He knew the roots of the movement well and travelled for seven years with the late Bill Wilson, the charismatic co-founder of AA and author of the Twelve Steps. In 1961, Wilson, whose early thinking on AA was influenced by the British evangelical Oxford Group, addressed the problems faced by non-believers. He opened the tent to all, but wrote that doubters could eventually take the first "easy" step into "the realm of faith." "People and agencies can help," Watters says, "but the only one who can restore that person to permanent sobriety is God. But that's the God of your understanding -- that can be anything you want." In AA God can be interpreted as an acronym for "good, orderly, direction," or as something that can be found in nature, a set of ethical principles, or even in the courage of fellow AA members. But it's essential to turn yourself over to something or someone other, says Watters. "If you don't believe in any power greater than yourself, you are on your own." A woman member of a group that adheres to the traditional Twelve Steps puts it this way: "You need to believe in something higher than yourself. Our self got us drunk." Different steps TWELVE STEPS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS THAT CITE GOD: 2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. 5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. 6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. 7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. 11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, prayer only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. BEYOND BELIEF'S ADAPTED TWELVE STEPS: 2. Came to accept and to understand that we needed strengths beyond our awareness and resources to restore us to sanity. 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of the AA program. 5. Admitted to ourselves without reservation, and to another human being, the exact nature of our wrongs. 6. Were ready to accept help in letting go of all our defects of character. 7. Humbly sought to have our shortcomings removed. 11. Sought through mindful inquiry and meditation to improve our spiritual awareness, seeking only for knowledge of our rightful path in life and the power to carry that out. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7414. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anonymity break, the anonymity issue From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/5/2011 10:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Abd ul-Rahman Lomax, "Gerard" , "Michael" , and Mike Portz - - - - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax (abd at lomaxdesign.com) James Blair wrote: >(1) In the following article in yesterday's paper, Pete W. (past >delegate and trustee) broke his anonymity with a full face >photograph along with giving his last name. > >(2) The article went on to describe how Toronto's two secular AA >groups -- Beyond Belief and We Agnostics -- had their listings >removed from Toronto's official directory of AA meetings. Somehow the basic integrity of the AA Traditions comes to be forgotten and Personal Opinion reigns. That news from Toronto is shocking, except for the fact that all AAs are human, and humans do stuff like this. I hope this is a transient aberration. Usually intergroups have more sense. The long form of Tradition 3: >3.) Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. >Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. >membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three >alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an >A.A. Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation. While the Traditions are like the Steps, suggested, Tradition 3 is as explicit as can be imagined. Those two groups are not "affilitated" with some group other than AA, they do not require "atheism" or "agnosticism" for membership, just as other AA groups do not require a belief in God. Given that these are "alcoholics gathered together for sobriety," it's clear that they may "call themselves" an "AA group," and that this does not depend on "conformity" to anything. While there might somewhere, sometime, be a reason for making exceptions, this isn't it, at all. As long as those groups do not represent that the form of the Steps and Traditions that they use is not the generally accepted form, there is no harm at all in allowing this difference, and that AA groups could differ from each other is very much part of what caused AA to grow so rapidly, it was part of Bill W.'s genius or inspiration. I'd encourage other AA members in Toronto, as long as the removal from the meeting list persists, to attend the meetings, and to mention these groups at other meetings, so that other members, expecially newcomers, who might need them, can find them. There is no requirement that intergroups list all meetings, though it's obviously desirable. Has this issue ever been considered by the Conference? - - - - From: "Gerard" (GRault at yahoo.com) Hmmm. I thought the only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking, and that any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group. . . Gerry - - - - From: "Michael" (mfmargetis at yahoo.com) I read the article on anonymity in Sunday's NY Times a couple of weeks ago. The author totally misses a much larger and more important aspect of breaking anonymity: it's harmful for the person who is breaking it! AA has survived plenty of relapses by public figures over the years that have broken their anonymity, so I don't think that's such a big concern any more, but the whole concept of humility is lost in his discussion, that's what jumped out at me when I read the article. Humility, sacrifice, worker among workers, these are the type of qualities that are spiritually healthy for us! A desire to be recognized, standout, be the center of attention…different…these things are poison for us. (Even if it's disguised as a way to "carry the message" ) Anyway, that's my imperfect opinion on this anonymity discussion. I'm a firm believer in the wisdom and necessity of the 11th and 12th traditions. - - - - From: Mike Portz (mportz2000 at yahoo.com) "No person speaks for A.A. as a whole." We have 12 Traditions. There are no punishments for not adhering to them. All A.A. groups and their members "have the right to be wrong." I reckon that includes being disrespectful and self-centered. Also the right to be a "horses ass." I sometimes excel at these shortcomings. (way less often then I use to) The author has a right to state his opinions both as a fellow and a USA citizen. I'm very sorry he does not choose to honor and respect the fellowship that has probably brought him and his loved ones so much. I am very much in opposition to the thinking (or lack their of) by celebrities who choose not to honor our media standards for anonymity. Beyond our media standards, personal anonymity has been left up to each individual member, hopefully with the guidance of most A.A. groups and their members "ultimate authority." I feel a vast majority of our membership in Las Vegas, and certainly many of our "celebrity" members nationwide, just don't understand anonymity or our Traditions in general, or the reasons they are so greatly important to our society and its future. I don't believe they really have any comprehension of how important these really are. Just as I didn't for way to long. In Las Vegas it seems to me that the fellowship, the groups and individual sponsors, do little to educate new or older members to the importance of anonymity, or our Traditions. Most members tend to say in meetings and agree that "oh, yes, the Traditions are very important." But if you get into a conversation about why they are important or what the mean, well its almost always a short conversation because the only real knowledge a majority of our members have about the Traditions, is how they interpret what they, the individual member, have read on the wall. That sure didn't work for me. It has taken me a long time to comprehend why we have the standard for anonymity that we do. My sponsors never took the time to educate me or tell me where I could find information to read about our anonymity, or Traditions in general, so I could understand them. Oh they did take me through the Traditions. They took about 1-2 hours total on the subject. I never have heard anyone speak to the importance of anonymity, or more importantly why it is so important in a meeting. Nor have I ever heard any of our inspirational (some call them circuit) speakers speak in depth about the subject of anonymity. When I think about it, well I don't believe I've heard a discussion on the Traditions in any Las Vegas meetings in way over a year. I do have CD's devoted to discussing the Traditions by Bob D. and Clancy I. which helped broaden my understanding of "The Twelve Points To Assure our Future." I don't believe their are more then a few meetings in Las Vegas that are solely "Traditions meetings." I finally found out that the "Traditions" and "Anonymity" are talked about and explained in depth by their author and our co-founder in the non-conference approved "Language of the Heart" as well as the "conference approved" A.A. Come of age." I did not discover they (anonymity and the Traditions) were included in these books because anybody "in a meeting" ever mentioned or stressed that all should think about they might want to read these two books by our co-founder because they explained Anonymity, the Traditions and much more by the man who basically wrote and put together most of our program. I fell into it because I had a keen interest to learn everything I could about A.A. and how it works. My point is, that maybe we A.A. members should take what the author (one of our fellows) wrote (which basically states that Anonymity is not very important to A.A. anymore) and make good usage of what I consider to be his unwarranted, illiterate and non-factual criticism, -to our hearts, our minds and mutual love for A.A. I believe we need to consider that if Anonymity and the Traditions are to remain as the "12 points to assure the future" of our society, we need to start thinking about what additional methods we could take, as a society and individuals, to "spread the word" and explain why Anonymity and the Traditions are so very important to our continued survival. Like the gentleman's article seems to state about the decline in the importance of anonymity to our fellowship, we might seriously take into consideration if it is also happening to our Traditions in general. In Fellowship, Mike Portz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7415. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Disease concept of alcoholism From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/5/2011 9:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Devoid of all humility, may I suggest googling "Alcoholics Anonymous and the Disease Concept of Alcoholism" by clicking on this link: http://tinyurl.com/6b593cx -- or going directly to Ernest Kurtz, Ph.D., "Alcoholics Anonymous and the Disease Concept of Alcoholism" at: http://www.addictioninfo.org/articles/1048/1/Alcoholics-Anonymous-and-the-Di seas\ e-Concept-of-Alcoholism/Page1.html [19] -- or to use another link to this article, by going to http://tinyurl.com/ys4kgo One may link also to related articles at http://www.bhrm.org/papers/addpapers.htm -- ernie kurtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7416. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Disease concept of alcoholism From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/5/2011 8:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Historical antecedents: early Fifth Tradition, E. M. Jellinek, and also OXFORD GROUP PRESUPPOSITIONS. I believe that in one of the very early versions of the Fifth Tradition it reads "suffers alcoholism" -- which I have heard it suggested may mean "doesn't yet know there is a way out" -- presumably therefore particularly needing to have the message carried to him (or her). As to the "disease concept," the understanding of that term by Yale and Bunky Jellinek -- which is certainly relevant here -- is given pretty fully in his 1960 book The Disease Concept of Alcoholism -- which is not the same use of the word "disease" as in the statement that the ASAM has declared alcoholism a disease. And of course, the First-Century Christians (the Oxford Group) whom the early AA people sought to emulate had a disease concept of sin -- a disease to be treated with pharmakon athanasias, the medicine of immortality. _______________________________________ Note from G.C. the moderator: the exact "medicine of immortality" phrase went all the way back to St. Ignatius of Antioch circa very early second century A.D., and before that, to the cult of the goddess Isis. A long history indeed for the notion of spiritual salvation as a healing process. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7417. . . . . . . . . . . . King School cowbell From: hphopeandjoy . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/10/2011 7:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've read somewhere that King School had a cowbell, and that the cowbell was rung to limit sharing time. Can anyone recall that reference ?? Matt IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7418. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Disease concept of alcoholism From: cometkazie1@cox.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/4/2011 9:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Isn't this thread on the history of the disease concept of alcoholism, not on members' opinions of the same? History and recovery are two very different things. Let's stick to history here. Tommy H, in Kentucky now IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7419. . . . . . . . . . . . Roizen on Jellinek From: trysh travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/5/2011 9:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ron Roizen has a blog post on E. M. Jellinek's early years at the Worcester State Hospital on the Points blog today: http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/. Trysh Travis IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7420. . . . . . . . . . . . Cow bell picture From: Michael Gwirtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/10/2011 10:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here is a photo of the cow bell at Dr. Bob's house I think. The photo id's its use at the king school. The O.G. Bell is also shown. I don't know if the photo can post. I think it is also at silkworth.net Yis, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila,PA- where Young Peoples Groups began Going to EURYPAA 2 in Dublin,Ireland In August, and NAAAW in Helena in Sept. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7421. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Source of Carl Jung quote From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/8/2011 4:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "royslev" wrote: > > Wayne Dyer quoted Carl Jung as saying "One of the main functions of formalized religion is to protect people against a direct experience of God," but he did not indicate the name of the book and the page number where Jung himself made that statement. > > There are now hundreds of places on the internet where this quotation is cited, but in every one of them which I have checked, they refer only to Wayne Dyer's work. They never give any reference to a work by Carl Jung where we could read in context what Jung himself had written on that subject. > > Can anybody give me the name of the work written by Carl Jung, with page number etc., where Jung made that statement? -- if in fact he ever did say that. > It does sound like material in some Jung letters and articles from the 1950s, although not word-for-word. In a 1954 letter to Pere Lachat, found in the book Psychology and Western Religion, pp.233-245, Jung describes the frightening aspects of encounters with God, particularly as in the Old Testament, and says (p. 234), "One feels much safer under the shadow of the Church, which serves as a fortress to protect us against God and his Spirit. It is very comforting to be assured by the Catholic Church that it "possesses" the Spirit, who assists regularly at its rites. Then one knows that he is well chained up. Protestantism is no less reassuring in that it represents the Spirit to us as something to be sought for, to be easily "drunk," even to be possessed." The most important thing to realize is that Jung did not mean the same thing by "direct experience" as the Oxford Groupers. There were 2 different meanings to "God" for Jung. The only one of interest to him as a psychologist was the "God-image" or archetype, which is an empiric reality of the psyche. It is a form of "autonomous psychic content" which can burst upon the ego in a powerful "immediate numinous experience." This God-image contains both good and evil. The other meaning of "God," the one who represents only the good, is for Jung in the province of theology and philosophy. The psychologist can only deal with the morally ambiguous God-image of the psyche. Jung received a lot of criticism on this point. The Oxford Group "vital religious experience" is of course an experience of contact with the good God. The same letter quoted above contains a tangential reference to the Oxford Group (p. 237): "Instead of taking up our cross, we are told to cast it on Christ. He will take the burden of our anguish and we can enjoy our "simple faith" at Caux. We take flight into the Christian collectivity where we can forget even the will of God, for in society we lose the feeling of personal responsibility and can swim with the current." Why does this seem so different from other things Jung said about religion? Probably because he had different views in the 1930s when he wrote, for example, Modern Man in Search of a Soul. He was much more positive about the value of religion at that point, and that is the Jung best known to the early AA people. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7422. . . . . . . . . . . . AA History: Baton Rouge and New Orleans, Louisiana From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/10/2011 10:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is a typed, single spaced page from the Louisiana Archives, which are now located adjacent to the Baton Rouge Central Office. A fellow historian asked me to transcribe (transtype?) it so it could be stored and distributed electronically. I have remained faithful to P.S.O's work, including typos, misspellings, etc. I have bracketed [ ] my comments. P.S.O. brought A.A. to Baton Rouge, the first meeting on Dec. 10, 1944. I will leave accurate dating of this document to someone more intimately familiar with him and his writing. I would guess middle '50s. ____________________________________ AA HISTORICAL DATA ON BATON ROUGE & NEW ORLEANS NEW ORLEANS :- started March, 1943, apparently by Steve G. who was called "the man with the book". this refers to an AA book, the BIG BOOK about AA which a woman from New Orleans obtained while on a visit to New York- failing to interest her son in same she gaveit [sic] to Steve who carried it around till they got meeting places, or rather until a few others arrived in New Orleans and got together with Steve G. and started a group. I knew Wally H. and one other who I thought started this group. Also there was Lefty H. and Don E. and Esty S. Lefty came from Chicago. Also a Harold D. early member. Anyway they met in Board Room of Chamber of Commerce, then in Queen & Crescent Bldg. in an aoffice [sic], then to Beauregard House ground floor until I think Frances Parkinson Keyes took over the house to live in same; then they went to an upstairs place on Poydras then to the big house of Dumaine where they had quite a club which finally folded due I think to influx of drunks more interested in a hangout [word typed over-hard to see well] than place to quit drinking- back again to Queen & Crescent Bldg where Central Office now is--meetings of many groups now held at 604 Iberville when they have open meets--(forgot to mention Frank D. as an early member. There are now 15 groups with membership of 200 or more, some say 500. There are meetings every night in the week somewhere or other in N.O.* [*No end of parentheses] BATON ROUGE;- started December 10, 1944 by a man who had been sober for 7 years at the time, who had read Sat.Eve Post article, got a book was a lone member in Shreveport from 1941 on, talked AA to anyone who wold listen and finally one of those talked to namely Jack Meredith, a non-alcoholic sent an alcoholic newsman one Rupert P. to this Pat O. who explained to Rupert what he had seen of AA in New Orleans and Little Rock where Pat had attended meetings. At Rupert's suggestion a squib was put in the paper on 12/8/44 that a group was to be started in B.R. This was vs advice of Larry J. in Houston who suggested starting group quietly by getting names of alcs. from ministers. Anyway first meeting had 7 in attendance of who 5 were alcoholics and 3 are sober now for many years and 2 have been beset with difficulties. First open meeting held at Wolf's bakery in Feb. or March of 1945 with speakers from N.O -Lefty H. also Mr. R. there. 1st Anniversary at Holsum Bakery, at which Dr. Smith from Jackson talked. Meetings held in homes, then room at Istrouma Hotel, Morning Advocate Board Room, Apt. over the Italian Gardens was a clubhouse for some months, and the Presbyterian Church parlors(1st Pres.), a detective room in the police station, then the judge's office, the Heidelberg Hotel harbored most open meetings and closed were held there for some time. Also Lucille Mae Grace got us OK on use of room under North entrance stairs to Old State Capitol for a while. We sure moved around. Membership varied from 7 or 8 up to 20 then down to 2 or 3 then up again maybe to 30 or 40, group split into two, one of which folded. Original group still holding on altho membership has turned over many times with a few always hanging on either as bleeding deacons or elder statesman acc. to who judges them. Looks like present membership of the two groups right now would be somewhere between 60 and 80 members of varying shades of activity. Judge that somewhere between 100 and 200 people are sober today as result of these groups with possibly some 400 or 500 different individuals passing thru--many come a while, then stop but stay sober some dont, [sic] some stay sober and stay active. NORTH BATON ROUGE GROUP have [sic] been going some few years ow and have done an escpecially [sic] wonderful job of starting and fostering groups of AA both at East La. State Hospital, Jackson, La. and also at La. State Prison at Angola. Clarence C. has been the real ramrod of this activity. P. S. O'Brien END OF LETTER Tommy H, still in Baton Rouge for a week or so IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7423. . . . . . . . . . . . December 1945 Grapevine pages 13 and 14 From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/10/2011 2:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A number of years ago I purchased the first set pf large Grapevines in a two-booklet format. Yesterday I was putting the reduced pages into folders for easy viewing by my homegroup and came to find out that I am missing pages 13 & 14 from December 1945. Wondering if anyone has those pages which he or she could copy for me. John Wikelius Enterprise, Alabama (justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7424. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA History tourism locations From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/5/2011 9:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Cindy Miller, Tommy H., and Woody in Akron - - - - From: Cindy Miller (cm53 at earthlink.net) Cornwall Press (now a series of artsy stores) in Cornwall, New York. Near West Point. Beautiful countryside. And the Painters Inn nearby is the one where they (Bill, etc) all stayed while the BB was being planned ... -cm - - - - From: Tommy H. (cometkazie1 at cox.net) Hugh M. wrote: "I would visit Dr. Bob's childhood home at 34 Summer Street in St. Johnsbury, Vermont. It is off the beaten path, but visiting it made the story of his early years become real to me." I think the house is also his birthplace. I attended an A.A. meeting there in the early '90s, when there were almost daily meetings. I don't know what the current schedule is. At the time, a number of counselors had offices there and they would let you roam the house as long as it didn't interfere. Another tourist attraction in St. J is the Fairbanks Museum. As far as Vermont goes, it's not off the beaten path. Tommy H, son and grandson of Vermonters - - - - From: Robt Woodson (wdywdsn at sbcglobal.net) My suggestion, in the spirit of what eventually resulted in the AA fellowship's celebrating our 76th Anniversary ... When in New york, take a moment and stand outside the site of of Towns Hospital on Central Park West ... now apartments (I was fortunate enough to have been allowed a visit inside). Reliving there, Bill's '"spiritual experience" and his vision at the time is in itself, a spiritual renewal ... see p.121 in "Pass It On" and pp. 62, 63, and 64 in "AA Comes Of Age" ... and think about his thoughts and vision for the future (of a "chain reaction" of alcoholic's working with other alcoholic's each carrying "this message and these principles to the next" (of his own determination at that time to work with other alcoholics) eventually to become the basic tenet of AA) as described on p.64 in "AA Comes of Age". It definitely moved me then...and it still does today. Keep your powder dry; and do keep being good guys and girls! Woody in Akron IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7425. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Photos of Richard Peabody and Courtenay Baylor From: Laurence Holbrook . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/6/2011 3:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I couldn't find any web pictures, but I tripped over thie A&E bio of Caresse Crosby originally Polly Jacob (1892 - 1970), Peabody's wife - prolly not terribly useful, but interesting that "Caresse Crosby helped change fashion and free women from confining corsets by getting the first patent for the modern brassiere - or as we call it now the bra." http://www.biography.com/articles/Caresse-Crosby-9262225 Caresse Crosby Biography originally Polly Jacob ( 1892 - 1970 ) Publisher, poet, and inventor. Born Mary Phelps Jacob -- but usually called Polly by friends and family -- on April 20, 1892, in New York, New York. While she spent most of her career engaged in the literary arts, Caresse Crosby helped change fashion and free women from confining corsets by getting the first patent for the modern brassiere -- or as we call it now the bra. Caresse Crosby came up with the idea for the bra in 1913 and later sold the patent for her invention. Two years later, she married Richard Rogers Peabody, and the couple had two children. The union didn't last, however, and Crosby became embroiled in a scandal when she fell in love with another man while still married to Peabody. She divorced Peabody in 1921 and married Harry Crosby the next year. Not long after moving to Paris, Caresse and Harry Crosby immersed themselves in the city's social happenings and began to travel in literary circles. She changed her name to Caresse as part of her new literary persona. Crosby published her first book, Crosses of Gold, in 1925. Her next work, Graven Images, was released the following year. Besides her own writing, Crosby and her husband established two publishing imprints: Editions Narcisse and Black Sun Press. Through their company, the Crosbys published the likes of Kay Boyle, Hart Crane, James Joyce, and Archibald MacLeish. The great partnership between Crosby and her husband crumbled after he and his mistress committed suicide in 1929. After his death, Crosby continued on as an editor and publisher, putting out collections of her late husband's work and letters as well as material by Ezra Pound and many others. In the 1930s, Caresse Crosby returned to the United States. She married Selbert Young in 1937, but the relationship ended in divorce. Crosby shared stories from her fascinating life in her 1953 memoir Passionate Years. She later moved to Rome and established an informal artistic colony of sorts at her castle home. Caresse Crosby died on January 24, 1970, in Rome. C 2011 A&E Television Networks. All rights reserved. _____ From: jax760 Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2011 Subject: Photos of Richard Peabody and Courtenay Baylor Hi Gang, Does anyone have a photo of Richard Peabody and/or Courtenay Baylor they could send me? I have a pre-Big Book literature presentation to give and would love Peabody's picture to present along with The Common Sense of Drinking portion of the prentation. Send to: > (jax760 at yahoo.com) Thanks and God Bless John Barton IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7426. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Cow bell picture From: J.BARRY MURTAUGH . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2011 1:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII where are the pics @ sikworth.net? thanks bear On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 9:59 PM, Michael Gwirtz wrote: > > Here is a photo of the cow bell at Dr. Bob's house I think. The photo id's > its use at the king school. The O.G. Bell is also shown. I don't know if the > photo can post. I think it is also at silkworth.net > Yis, > Shakey Mike Gwirtz > Phila,PA- where Young Peoples Groups began > Going to EURYPAA 2 in Dublin,Ireland > In August, and NAAAW in Helena in Sept. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7427. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Cow bell picture From: Jayaa82@earthlink.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2011 1:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It is actually in the Akron IG archives -----Original Message----- From: Michael Gwirtz Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 Subject: Cow bell picture Here is a photo of the cow bell at Dr. Bob's house I think. The photo id's its use at the king school. The O.G. Bell is also shown. I don't know if the photo can post. I think it is also at silkworth.net Yis, Shakey Mike Gwirtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7428. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The newcomer is the most important person in the room From: Byron Bateman . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/7/2011 4:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Byron Bateman, Charley Bill, Jay Pees - - - - From: "Byron Bateman" (byronbateman at hotmail.com) Bill Wilson said that the newcomer was NOT the most important person in the room, and the reason why was very important. There is a tape/CD where Bill W. gave a run-down of the traditions. The recording should be available at your intergroup office, or you could contact the GSO. Bill announced Tradition One as "The common welfare tradition." He then went on to say the following: "People used to say 'well, the drunk, he's the important person! Surely, he is. But how is he going to get well in any number, if there is no fellowship? Therefore, the common welfare has to come first, and our individual welfare second.' -- from the Bill W. Traditions Tape. If any individual would like me to send a small "wav" file of Bill's words on this, drop me an email and I'll send it to you. Byron (byronbateman at hotmail.com) - - - - From: Charley Bill (charley92845 at gmail.com) It has been commonly used in Long Beach, California in 1969 and since. There are numerous discrepancies / disagreements etc., betwee BB and the program in practice, and even within the BB, if you look carefully enough. - - - - From: Jay Pees (racewayjay at gmail.com) I first heard it in rehab in July 1984. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7429. . . . . . . . . . . . What languages did Carl Jung speak and write in? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2011 2:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Message 7421 from (corafinch at yahoo.com) spoke about the possible source of a Carl Jung quotation. Cora, or anyone else knowledgeable, what languages did Jung speak and write? What language was most of his published work in? Tommy H in Baton Rouge, for now IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7430. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anonymity break, removing non-God meetings from Toronto list From: justme489 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/9/2011 10:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Donna W. (justme489), Sober186, Jim C. (jamesoddname), Baileygc23, Joseph Nugent (jumpinjoe1), Dougbert, Jon Markle (ncsilverbear), Jim F. (f.jim53), and Jim S. (planternva) - - - - From: "justme489" (justme489 at yahoo.com) The Toronto Intergroup was correct in their actions. The moment the group(s) changed the words in the Steps they became something other than Alcoholics Anonymous. If the Intergroup Office was at fault in any way, it was the fact that the meetings were listed in the first place. I highly, highly suggest reading Concept XII, Warranty Five in the AA Service Manual (pages 69 following). Warranty Five: "That no Conference action ever be personally punitive or an incitement to public controversy." The Service Manual can be viewed on the "AA.Org" website: http://aa.org/pdf/products/en_bm-31.pdf Donna W., Corpus Christi, Texas - - - - From: Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com) As I read it, any group may call itself an AA group. If anyone can make a decision on if or if not a group is an AA group, it would hardly be an intergroup who publishes a list of meetings. It just means an intergroup which pretty much has no standing of any kind in AA is not including those groups in its list of meetings. If people don't like that intergroups determination, they can and often do, form another intergroup and publish their own list. I think it is World Services who might have authority to include or not include the two groups in question in any list of groups. At this point, we don't even know if the two groups are or were ever listed by World Services. We don't even know if either has even applied to be a group. I do have questions in my mind as to why any group which has written its own steps, different from AA steps, would WANT to call itself an AA group? Are they trying to trick drunks into joining that group instead of AA. I also wonder why any newspaper would consider this newsworthy. The editors should go out to a major shopping center and ask the first 1,000 people they see what they think about this issue ... Ask, is this important to you or not? I am sure the more popular answers would be "Huh?" "who cares?" and "Sorry, too busy to talk right now." Once upon a time politicians paid me to give them advice on handling the media. My first rule was "Don't Lie." Then came " say 'I don't know' when you really don't know" and third ... "Don't screw up on a slow news day." Maybe it was just a very, very slow news day in Toronto. - - - - From: James R (jamesoddname at yahoo.com) Invocations of Tradition 3 are OK but there is also Tradition 4: "Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or AA as a whole." The Steps belong to the fellowship as a whole and affect the outreach of all groups. A rewrite by one group strikes me as out of order. What are they going to do next? Produce their own edition of the BB with all the references to God taken out? They can finesse the "God problem" some other way. Maybe their own little group "bylaw" saying that GOD stands for "Good Orderly Direction" or something. Jim C - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) In his farewell speech to the 1986 General Service Conference http://hindsfoot.org/pearson.html Bob P. gave this warning to future generations of A.A. members: "If you were to ask me what is the greatest danger facing A.A. today, I would have to answer: the growing rigidity -- the increasing demand for absolute answers to nit-picking questions; pressure for G.S.O. to 'enforce' our Traditions; screening alcoholics at closed meetings; prohibiting non-Conference-approved literature, i.e., 'banning books'; laying more and more rules on groups and members." The spirit of real old time AA is being destroyed as more and more people are beginning to ignore one of Bill Wilson's favorite sayings: "Every group has the right to be wrong." - - - - From: Joseph Nugent from Canada (jumpinjoe1 at gmail.com) Fr. Pete has done this sort of thing here in Canada for years. He seeks out publicity, using various excuses / reasons to justify it. - - - - From: Dougbert (dougbert8 at yahoo.com) I think this whole Toronto foolishness is a perfect candidate for Rule #62: "Don't take yourself so damn seriously." Page 149, Tradition Four. We have two unwritten requirements to long-term sobriety: One, wear the A.A. program as a loose fitting suit. Two, we must all find a moral compass that allows us to look ourselves in the mirror every morning and say: "I don't spread negative karma, and today, I am not a liar, cheat, and a horse thief" . . . that fits with spiritual progress. Doug - - - - From: Jon M (ncsilverbear at yahoo.com) There is substantial literature from our Founders concerning controversy and AA groups and members. This reading from As Bill Sees It seems right on target concerning the abhorrent actions in Toronto. Our CoFounders must be rolling over in their graves! CONTROVERSY "Given enough anger, both unity and purpose are lost. Given still more 'righteous' indignation, the group can disintegrate; it can actually die. This is why we avoid controversy. This is why we prescribe no punishments for any misbehavior, no matter how grievous. Indeed, no alcoholic can be deprived of his membership for any reason whatever." - As Bill Sees It, p. 98 It does seem totally ironic that this "God" or "not God" business should garner this much controversy and public attention. Yet this member who seems to call upon his relationship with Bill Wilson, breaks one of our most sacred of all Traditions, that of anonymity. And thinks he can speak for the whole World Wide Fellowship. Not one of our traditions states that a group has to be religious or preach faith in God. Neither is a religious belief in "God" necessary to me a member of AA. But they do, very explicitly state, that we are not to break anonymity at the level of press, radio or film. In addition, no one can say anyone is not a member of AA. Neither can other groups kick another group out of AA. Sounds tragically like AA is taking a beating in Toronto from extreme fanatical, right wing, religious factions. Nothing will tear apart AA at the seams like this kind of stupid religious debate. There are thousands of different flavors of groups all over the world. We have all managed to be harmonious until now. This is a controversy that will shred AA to pieces at its very core, world wide. It will make those who believe that AA is a religion appear to be right. I am appalled and deeply saddened by this article. Sad for Toronto and sad for the beloved Fellowship that saved my life. Jon Markle, Raleigh, North Carolina - - - - From: "Jim F." (f.jim53 at rocketmail.com) We do not wish to engage in any controversy including this one. Dervishes whirl till they grow dizzy and fall down. Jim F. - - - - From: "planternva2000" (planternva2000 at yahoo.com) Does AA still have twelve traditions or have we eliminated ten of the original dozen? It seems the only traditions most members know about are number three and number eleven, and in most cases what they 'know' is mistaken. Tradition Three says that any alcoholic can be a member of AA but does not guarantee membership in a group. And I doesn't say that anyone who suffers from an addiction, compulsion or obsession is eligible for AA membership, only alcoholics. (See pamphlet P-35, "Problems Other Than Alcohol.") There is a huge outcry whenever someone breaks his anonymity at the public level, but breaking other traditions by individuals, groups or GSO is accepted. Case in point: At every convention/conference I've attended over the past several decades the meeting chairman points out the anonymity tradition, takes a breath, and announces the availability for purchase of copies of the speakers talk on CD. Tradition six discourages endorsing outside enterprise, yet we start our meetings with a commercial for the meeting's recorder, an outside enterprise. Most committees also pay for the recorder's registration and lodging. Granted, in many cases the person doing the recording is a member of AA, but his recording business is his occupation, by which he makes his living. Many conference / convention attendees are doctors, plumbers, merchants, etc. Should we have the meeting chairpeople advertise those occupations also? Jim S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7431. . . . . . . . . . . . Biographies of the authors of the Big Book stories From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/28/2011 1:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is there an actual book, hardcopy or online, on the authors of the personal stories in the original first edition? I have seen the short biographies at: http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html but would like to see more of the information on these AA pioneers, including original sobriety dates (as best they are) and whether or not they stayed sober. Thank you for any help In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst - - - - Message #63 from Nancy Olson Sat Apr 6, 2002 BB Authors -- Author unknown, Akron, OH. "Ace Full-Seven-Eleven." Buffs, I have been preparing short biographies of authors of the stories in the Big Book, including all three editions, plus one story which appeared only in the Original Manuscript (OM). I have reviewed all the books published by A.A. World Services and the A.A. Grapevine, plus all the books I could locate written about A.A. or by any of its members. A few I acknowledge at the end of individual stories. In this endeavor I have been helped enormously by other members of the Buffs. Some of these supplied information about only about one or two of the authors. In those cases I will acknowledge them when I post the individual biographies on which they helped. But there are a few people who have been of such help in providing information that I must acknowledge them here: Lee C. in California, who first got me interested in A.A. history; Jim B. in Canada who has sent me large files full of information on A.A.'s history; Barefoot Bill in Pennsylvania, who has sent both information and a video of one of the authors' talks; Ron L. and Ted H. in California who have sent me tapes of some of the authors' talks. (Ron also sent me information on Jim Burwell which I had not known.) But there is one man who does not want to be acknowledged. "I don't like to take credit for anything I do for A.A.," is I think how he put it. But this man not only proofread and offered editorial suggestions on the nearly 150 pages, but also researched the net to find information for me. So I will risk his friendship by saying THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, to Tony C. of Texas. To me the amazing thing about all this is that I have never met any of these benefactors in person. I've done my level best to be sure the stories are accurate. Nonetheless, I am sure there are mistakes. Please send any corrections or additional information to me personally rather than to the whole list, giving me your sources for the information (no guess work please). If it seems appropriate I will then post a corrected biography, giving credit where due for the new information. Here is the first, the only story in the original manuscript which was not included in the first edition. Nancy - - - - From GC the moderator: the earliest versions of these biographies are probably the ones which Nancy Olson was referring to here, the ones that were posted on the AAHistoryLovers when it first began, which can be read as AAHistoryLovers Messages 63,64, 65 . . . 137. There are newer versions available, but this is a case where the newer versions may or may not be more accurate -- you have to look at each change in wording individually and evaluate whether the change was in fact justified by new and better data -- the people who originally put these stories together for the AAHistoryLovers (Nancy Olson, Lee C., Jim B., Barefoot Bill, Ron L., Ted H., and Tony C.) were very careful and talented historians, and did extraordinarily good work. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7432. . . . . . . . . . . . Reading in early AA From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2011 9:42:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can anyone help me locate in early AA literature or correspondence thoughts or advice about the advisability/utility of reading (other than the Big Book) OR about the possible dangers of such reading? I am wondering especially about some of the early pamphlet literature put out in Akron.* With gratitude to many for much help in the past, ernie kurtz ================================ The early Akron pamphlets http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html (a little below the middle of the page) THE AKRON MANUAL: A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous first half: http://hindsfoot.org/AkrMan1.html and second half: http://hindsfoot.org/AkrMan2.html Second Reader for Alcoholics Anonymous http://hindsfoot.org/Akr2dRdr.pdf Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous http://hindsfoot.org/AkrSpir.pdf THE AKRON GUIDE TO THE TWELVE STEPS: A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous http://hindsfoot.org/Akr12.html ================================ The old Akron reading list for A.A. beginners (A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous: THE AKRON MANUAL, published by the Akron group in late 1939 or early 1940, with Dr. Bob's approval we must assume, gives a list at the end of recommended readings for newcomers to A.A., so that they might better understand the spiritual aspects of the program. "The following literature," the pamphlet says, "has helped many members of Alcoholics Anonymous.") Alcoholics Anonymous (the Big Book). The Holy Bible. (The Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7, the letter of James, 1 Corinthians 13, and Psalms 23 and 91 were all mentioned earlier in the pamphlet. These were favorite passages, particularly the Sermon on the Mount, for early twentieth century classical Protestant liberals. The enormously popular book by Adolf Harnack, What Is Christianity? was a major liberal Protestant manifesto. Christianity was about the simple teaching of the historical Jesus, as shown especially in passages like the Sermon on the Mount, not about complex doctrines and dogmas cast in pagan Greek philosophical terms. These terms appear nowhere in the Bible, Harnack said, and were a later medieval distortion. Real Christianity was not about saying the right technical doctrinal words, but about showing love and compassion towards our fellow human beings. As the Letter of James said, "Faith without works is dead." The Upper Room, which was the meditational book most often used by early A.A.'s before Richmond Walker's Twenty-Four Hour book came along in 1948, was published by the classical Protestant liberals and was a good statement of their fundamental principles: starting the day with prayer and meditation, with short Bible verses for each day's reading that stressed dependence on God as our loving Father and walking with Jesus and his love in our hearts, God-consciousness, doing good, and showing love to everyone around us.) The Greatest Thing in the World, Henry Drummond. The Unchanging Friend, a series (Bruce Publishing Co., Milwaukee). As a Man Thinketh, James Allen. The Sermon on the Mount, Emmet Fox (Harper Bros.). The Self You Have to Live With, Winfred Rhoades. Psychology of Christian Personality, Ernest M. Ligon (Macmillan Co.). Abundant Living, E. Stanley Jones. The Man Nobody Knows, Bruce Barton. ================================ Message #1926 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1926 The Early Akron A.A. Reading List, Part 1 of 5 Message #1930 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1930 [The Akron Reading List Part 2 of 5] Message #1927 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1927 [The Akron Reading List Part 3 of 5] Message #1928 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1928 The Akron Reading List Part 4 of 5 (notes #1-3) Message #1929 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1929 [The Akron Reading List Part 5 of 5 (notes #4-6)] ================================ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7433. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Reading in early AA: early Grapevine recommendations From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/20/2011 3:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Early Grapevines had a section called "The Pleasures of Reading" ........ lots of good recommendations. The column stopped though after a few years. Regards John B IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7434. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Reading in early AA: the Evan W. pamphlets at Akron From: Gary Neidhardt . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/20/2011 3:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Ernie, I'm sure you already have the folder provided by the Akron Intergroup that is provided when one buys the five standard Evan W. pamphlets. But just in case some folks here don't have that information, here's how it reads: "This historical Literature was written by Evan W. at the request of Dr. Bob. He felt that the newly written Big Book was too difficult for the blue-collar worker to read. Evan was a former writer for the newspaper and wrote "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous" in 1941, followed by "A Second Reader for Alcoholics Anonymous". These pamphlets were completed by 1950 and reflected the arly mindset of Akron's earliest members. This literature is preconference and is still serving members of A.A. around the world." Gary Neidhardt IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7435. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What languages did Carl Jung speak and write in? From: David Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/14/2011 7:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From David Brown and Bryan Reid - - - - David Brown (copperas44 at yahoo.com) German and some French and English. - - - - From: Bryan Reid (humblephoenix at gmail.com) Like most Swiss, Jung was multi-lingual. His primary language was German. The majority, if not all, of his works were written and originally published in German. As a Swiss, he probably would have also spoken either French or Italian, or both. I know he was reasonably fluent in English. Beyond that, I have no idea. Bryan IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7436. . . . . . . . . . . . Rowland Hazard and Carl Jung From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/19/2011 9:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII VERIFICATION OF C. G. JUNG’S ANALYSIS OF ROWLAND HAZARD AND THE HISTORY OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS [Dr. Bluhm discovered a letter from Rowland Hazard dated May 15, 1926 and other documents which talked about Rowland going to Carl Jung for psychoanalysis in that year -- that is, in 1926, NOT in 1931.] Amy Colwell Bluhm, Independent Practice. Correspondence concerning this article should be addressed to Amy Colwell Bluhm, 2930 N. 85th Street, Milwaukee, WI 53222. E-mail: amykindred@yahoo.com History of Psychology 2006, Vol. 9, No. 4, 313–324 Copyright 2006 by the American Psychological Association 1093-4510/06/$12.00 DOI: 10.1037/1093-4510.9.4.313 Extant historical scholarship in the Jungian literature and the Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) literature does not provide a complete picture of the treatment of Rowland Hazard by C. G. Jung, an analysis that AA co-founder Bill Wilson claimed was integral to the foundation of AA in theory and practice. Wilson’s original report resulted in archivists and historians incorrectly calibrating their searches to the wrong date. The current work definitively solves the mystery of the timing of Hazard’s treatment with Jung by placing his preliminary analysis with Jung in the year 1926, rather than 1930 or 1931. Previously unexamined correspondence originating from Jung, Hazard, his cousin Leonard Bacon, his uncle Irving Fisher, and his aunt Margaret Hazard Fisher is supplemented by relevant primary and secondary source material. Keywords: Bill Wilson, Ebby Thatcher, analytical psychology, Leonard Bacon, conversion The fact is that there was at the very least a considerable exaggeration of the length and depth of Rowland Hazard’s contact with Carl Jung in Switzerland. Part of the Hazard-Jung story, as recounted in later AA sources, was clearly more legend than historical reality. - Richard Dubiel (2004), The Road to Fellowship, p. 71 I’ve had an hour with Dr. Jung every day except holidays. I think we get on splendidly. The first day he saw me, J. asked for dreams. That night I had three corkers—He read them and remarked “these are fine, fine—but for God’s sake don’t dream anymore.” We’ve been at work interpreting them and it all seems most fascinating and logical to me. - Rowland Hazard to Leonard Bacon, May 15, 1926, LBC Bill Wilson, the co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA), believed Rowland Hazard’s analysis with Jung was integral to the beginnings of the society. It follows, therefore, that, first, proving that the analysis took place, and, second, reconstructing the further context for the interaction of Jung, Rowland Hazard, and, eventually, AA, is important to the historiography of the organization. To face these two challenges, first an exposition of the history of Rowland Hazard’s analysis and AA will be presented as it has been reconstructed to date. The first story, that of Bill Wilson, and the latest historical work, that of Richard Dubiel (2004), will begin and end this exposition. Within the current research, a serendipitous discovery, highlighted below, brought forth the context from which to draw the confirming documentation to this conundrum. Using this discovery as spring board, the larger Hazard family history provides context for Rowland Hazard’s analysis in 1926 and the events preceding and following it. The Literature to Date Bill Wilson’s Version The words of Bill Wilson set the stage for subsequent renderings of the story of Rowland Hazard’s interaction with Jung, warranting extensive citation of Wilson’s words. Two sources will be used for this citation. The first is a transcription of Bill Wilson’s attempt, in 1954, to record his autobiographical information through dictation (Wilson, 2000). The second source is Bill Wilson’s much quoted initial letter to Jung in 1961, in which Wilson thanked the aged psychologist for his role in the foundation of AA. In the dictation of 1954, Bill Wilson tells it this way: A well-known American businessman named Rowland Hazard had gone to Zurich, Switzerland, probably in the year 1930 [. . .] as the court of last resort [. . .]. Hazard remained with Dr. Jung a whole year; desperately wanting to resolve his problem, he gave fullest cooperation [. . .] he believed himself cured [. . .] he left the doctor to face the world [. . .]. Yet, in a matter of weeks, he got drunk [. . .] returned to Dr. Jung in utter despair [. . .] he asked the good doctor and got a reply that was to make AA history [. . .] Dr. Jung humbly confessed that he had poor success with alcoholics, that he was capable of doing nothing whatever for Rowland [. . .]. Then Carl Jung made another statement [. . .] “Occasionally, Rowland, alcoholics have recovered through spiritual experience, better known as religious conversions. . . . the kind of religious experience that reaches into the depths of man, that changes his whole motivation.” (Wilson, 2000, pp. 123–125) Seven years later, Bill Wilson composed a letter of appreciation to Jung, relating the story of Hazard yet again: Having exhausted other means of recovery from his alcoholism, it was about 1931 that [Hazard] became your patient. I believe he remained under your care for perhaps a year [. . .] he left you with a feeling of much confidence [. . .] he soon relapsed [. . .] certain you were his “court of last resort,” he again returned to your care. Then followed the conversation between you that was to become the first link in the chain of events that led to the founding of Alcoholics Anonymous. (cited in Sikorsky, 1990, p. 8–9) Literature on the Foundation of AA At least two authors (Kurtz, 1988; B. Dick, 1999) identify advice given by C. G. Jung to Rowland Hazard as a source for the foundation of Alcoholics Anonymous. Bill Wilson declared Jung’s statement to Hazard “set Alcoholics Anonymous in motion” (Wilson, 2000, p. 125). With varying degrees of reliance on Bill Wilson’s template, the existing literature on the history of AA follows this general outline. Wilson, prior to founding AA, was influenced by the recovery of his friend, Ebby Thatcher (Bair [2003], Jung’s most recent biographer, skips Ebby Thatcher all together and states “When [Hazard] returned to the United States [after having seen Jung], he told his friend Bill W., another seemingly hopeless alcoholic, of his conversion experience” [p. 377]). Thatcher had recovered after he was taken under the wing of three Oxford Group members (The Oxford Group was an evangelical group established by Frank Buchman which became international in scope), including Rowland Hazard. Hazard had recovered by heeding advice from C. G. Jung to have a “vital spiritual experience” (O’Neil, 1998) in order to heal finally from his affliction. This is recognized as foundational to the history of the entire AA movement (Kurtz, 1988, p. 33). However, none of those documenting this piece of AA’s roots seems to be able to say anything further about Hazard’s work with Jung, other than that Jung confirms, in the much later (1961) correspondence with Bill Wilson, that he remembers his work with Rowland Hazard. Here is a summary of the storyline as it has been developed to this point in the secondary literature. At least one report claims Hazard initially wanted to go to Sigmund Freud, but Freud was too busy to take him on (O’Neil, 1998). Bill Wilson, in his appreciative letter to Jung, identifies Hazard as having visited Jung “about 1931” (cited in Sikorsky, 1990, p. 8). Most authors, especially recently, have therefore settled on the year of 1931 as the one in which Rowland Hazard was initially analyzed by Jung. It is stated matter-of-factly in at least two accounts. O’Neil (1998) states “In, 1931, still drinking, at 50, Hazard traveled to Zurich, Switzerland, where he consulted Dr. Carl Gustav Jung—then considered, with the possible exception of Freud, the finest psychiatrist in the world.” Finlay’s account has Hazard visiting Jung “some time during 1930” (2000, p. 4). Bair (2003) states “[Jung] saw the patient Roland (many of the authors misspell Hazard’s first name) H., an American alcoholic, in 1931, for either several weeks or as much as a year (accounts differ)” (p. 377). Kurtz (1988) gives this account: Sometime in 1931, another man, a young (he was born in 1881, making him 50 at the time), talented, and wealthy financial wizard, had found himself on the verge of despair over his inability to control his drinking. Having attempted virtually every other “cure,” he turned to one of the greatest medical and psychiatric talents of the time, traveling to Zurich, Switzerland, to place himself under the care of Dr. Carl Gustav Jung. (p. 8) Hazard’s treatment by Jung is recounted as lasting “close to a year” (Kurtz, 1988, p. 8), “over a year” (Pittman, 1988, p. 154), “some months” (Hartigan, 2000, p. 57), “more than a year” (Finlay, 2000, p. 4) and, in the first of such claims, White (1998) relates: A just-completed review (continuing Wally P.’s initial investigations) into the Rowland H[azard] Papers at the Rhode Island Historical Society reveals no evidence that Rowland was treated by Jung and suggests that, if such treatment did occur between 1930–1934, it was for a much shorter period (a few weeks). (p. 128) According to White, this review was undertaken by the Rhode Island Historical Society’s then-curator, Rick Stattler. The treatment itself consisted of uncovering Hazard’s “defected personality structure . . . The hidden springs and warped motors of his unconscious mind stood starkly revealed” (Wilson, 2000, p. 124, also similarly related in Pittman, 1988). The next step in the general outline has Hazard leaving, relapsing after supposedly being cured by Jung, and returning to Zu¨rich “immediately” (O’Neil, 1998), “soon” (Kurtz, 1988, p. 8), “in a matter of weeks” (Wilson, 2000, p. 194), or “a year later” (Bair, 2003, p. 377). Bill Wilson, in his 1961 letter to him, regarded Jung’s “candid and humble statement” that Hazard’s condition was beyond medical and psychiatric help, as “beyond doubt the first foundation stone upon which our [Alcoholics Anonymous] society has since been built” (cited in Sikorsky, 1990, p. 9). Jung allegedly spoke with candor, telling Hazard that medical help, including psychiatric help, would not cure him (Kurtz, 1988; Wilson, 2000; Raphael, 2000; Cheever, 2004). Hazard’s only hope, counseled Jung, was “aligning himself with a religious organization and achieving a religious or conversion experience” (Anonymous, 1998, p. 5), or was a “vital spiritual experience” (O’Neil, 1998), or “lay in religion” (Hartigan, 2000, p. 57), or “some type of religious conversion” (Finlay, 2000, p. 4), or “spiritual experience” (Cheever, 2004, p. 112). Bair (2003) claims that Jung told Hazard, more specifically, to join the Oxford Group (p. 377). Most importantly, Bill Wilson declared that the chain of events that led to the founding of AA “was directly founded on [Jung’s] own humility and deep perception” (cited in Sikorsky, 1990, p. 13) in his treatment of Rowland Hazard. The Road to Fellowship Most recently, Richard Dubiel (2004) has issued a prodigious account of the early history of Alcoholics Anonymous. Dubiel also, like White (1998), worked with the assistance of Rick Stattler at the Rhode Island Historical Society. Again Stattler plumbed the Hazard Family Papers (HFP) in the society’s manuscript collection. Dubiel highlighted some of the problems for documenting the connection to date: the review of the HFP found Hazard to be in Europe for, at most, two months during the year 1931, and this seemingly for a family trip. Hazard “left behind almost no extant letters of his own” (Dubiel, 2004, p. 64). The evidence, to Dubiel, appears to be largely anecdotal, lacking supportive documentation. Dubiel suggests that perhaps the family was highly embarrassed to have one of their members in need of a psychiatrist. Finally, Dubiel concludes: The fact is that there was at the very least a considerable exaggeration of the length and depth of Rowland Hazard’s contact with Carl Jung in Switzerland. Part of the Hazard-Jung story, as recounted in later AA sources, was clearly more legend than historical reality. (p. 71) The Serendipitous Discovery The current findings began in the simple act of reading the Sunday morning paper. The Washington Post on May 3, 2004, included a short review of a newly published biography of Bill Wilson authored by Susan Cheever (2004): “Wilson had a friend named Ebby Thatcher, another alcoholic, who had a friend named Roland Hazard (sic), yet another drunk, who was wealthy enough to seek help from psychiatrist Carl Jung.” I recognized the surname of the analysand and connected it to another research project. Pursuing this lead, I was able to locate documentation that has been elusive to historians to date. The connection is detailed as follows. At the time of this opportune perusal of the Washington Post, I was in the midst of my dissertation project—a historical reconstruction of the life of Carol Sawyer Baumann (1897–1958), a previously unknown early member of the Zurich circle of Jungians. Her mother was Margaret Hazard Fisher, a descendant of the Rhode Island woolen magnate, Rowland Hazard (1763–1835). Sawyer Baumann relocated to Zu¨rich in 1929 and lived there for the remainder of her life. I had certainly known of a connection between Jung and AA, but that morning I was intrigued by the coincidence of the Hazard family name and the timing of the analyses of Carol Sawyer Baumann and Rowland Hazard. The Hazards are a prominent New England family with a deep history documented in numerous archival collections. Previous work with the effects of Rowland Hazard has focused on the Rhode Island Historical Society (RIHS). It happened that, as I read the paper that Sunday morning, I was about to embark on a data-gathering sojourn to the RIHS to fill in some of the Carol Sawyer Baumann narrative. On that same trip, I worked through the Leonard Bacon collection in the Beinecke Rare Manuscripts Library at Yale. Leonard Bacon was Carol Sawyer Baumann’s first cousin. A search of the Guide to the Hazard Family Papers, issued by the RIHS, revealed that Bacon and Sawyer Baumann had another first cousin: Rowland Hazard. In 1925, Leonard Bacon (1887–1954) had analysis with C. G. Jung in Zurich. Bacon was the son of Rowland Hazard’s father’s (Rowland G. Hazard II) sister Helen and Nathaniel Bacon. Leonard Bacon was a renowned author and Pulitzer prize-winning poet. He wrote about his analysis experience in extended form in the book Animula Vagula (1926) and also referred to it in his autobiographical work Semi-centennial (1939). Carol Sawyer Baumann, another of Rowland Hazard’s first cousins, following on Leonard Bacon’s advice, went to Zu¨rich in 1929 and lived there for the remainder of her life as Jung’s analysand, full member of the early circle of Jungians, and writer and researcher in her own right (Bluhm, 2005). Given this information, the further context for Rowland Hazard’s analysis with Jung begins to open up. Documentation for the Connection The Hazard Family As stated previously, the year of Rowland Hazard’s initial visit to Jung was in 1926, not in the 1930s. What follows is a preliminary and humble reconstruction, using the facts currently available. Further documentation may follow after historians recalibrate for the year 1926. In addition, the narrative can be further contextualized by including the larger, Hazard family connection to Jung and the early circle of Jungians and by juxtaposing a reconstruction of Hazard’s analysis with Jung with an historical examination of Jung’s emerging conceptions. The substantial pieces of this documentation were found in the Leonard Bacon Collection (LBC) at the Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library at Yale University, with supplemental documentation from other primary and secondary sources. As to the larger Hazard family connections to Jung and the early Jungian circle, the story is of these three cousins. The first, and by far the most important, is Leonard Bacon. Following his own analysis, Bacon played a heavy role in the eventual analysis of both of his cousins, Carol Sawyer Baumann and Rowland Hazard. Curiously, though Rowland Hazard and Carol Sawyer Baumann’s tales overlap to a surprising degree in addition to the fact that they were first cousins, there has, as yet, been no correspondence found between Hazard and Sawyer Baumann. And, although there is mention of Rowland Hazard in correspondence directed towards Carol Sawyer Baumann, she makes no mention of him in her own writing, nor is there any extant correspondence between the two in Carol Sawyer Baumann’s extensive remaining effects (BP). Nonetheless, Rowland Hazard and Carol Sawyer Baumann’s analyses happened concurrently, and there are interesting parallels. Throughout, they both relied heavily on Leonard Bacon. The Correspondence The initial correspondence relevant to Hazard’s analysis is between his cousin, Leonard Bacon, and Kristine Mann (1873–1945), a New York Jungian analyst. Mann’s letter of April 13, 1926, reads, in part: Your cousin has not communicated with me again and I realized that I had been most unbusinesslike, I had not even taken down his name and address. I did not know whether the interview I had had with him was “social” or “professional.” In short I did not know quite where I stood (personal communication, [LBC, “Zurich” folder]). Just over a month later, Rowland Hazard corresponded directly with Leonard Bacon from Zurich on May 15, 1926: Dear Leonard, After various fussiness and social necessities had been attended to in London, Paris and Brussels, we arrived here May 6th. We are most comfortably established and this hotel is all you said of it. It has rained five days out of the nine we’ve been here but nevertheless I’ve had a lot of hand tennis, some fine walks, and some golf. . . . [Toni] Wolff saw us both on the seventh and since then I’ve had an hour with Dr. Jung every day except holidays. I think we get on splendidly. The first day he saw me, Jung asked for dreams. That night I dreamed three corkers—He read them and remarked “these are fine, fine—but for God’s sake don’t dream anymore” We’ve been at work interpreting them and it all seems most fascinating and logical to me. Old boy, this is the dope for me, I’m sure. Thank God for it, and for you for sending me here. We have a temporary difficulty in that Jung says Helen [Hazard, Rowland’s wife] can’t be analyzed—because she doesn’t really want to be. Jung and I are plotting to get around that with some success I think. She goes to Paris tomorrow night for a wild week alone. When she gets back Jung promises to get at her. Good luck to you, love to Patty [Leonard Bacon’s wife] please. Yours devotedly, R. H. Many thanks for your letter and the letters of introduction! (personal communication, [LBC]) Shortly after this came a letter from C. G. Jung himself. He echoes and elaborates on Rowland Hazard’s remarks about his wife: My dear Mr. Bacon, Hazard and his wife are here. I began work with him, not yet with her as she still feels, as if he were all wrong and as if she had achieved a remarkable adaptation. (The latter being the most cherished hobby of her mind—for the time being at least) But next week she will have an hour with me. I suppose she will continue with our most beloved Toni [Wolff], who—by the way—is doing splendid work. (personal communication, C. G. Jung to Leonard Bacon, May 16, 1926, [LBC, “Jung, C. G.” folder]) Further into the analysis, Rowland Hazard shares more extensively on the same topics: Dear Leonard, First, I want to acknowledge your very kind letter, which came some time ago, and next, to apologize for leaving it so long unanswered. Since you have been through this mill, you will understand that for a time at least, the hours seem too short for what one has to do, and further the inclination to write is lacking. We have been here just a month tomorrow, and though it is too soon to make any very decided statement, I feel that a decided advance has been made. Things did not go so well at first, because Helen, being scared, assumed such a standoffish attitude that Jung told me that it was useless for him to attempt an analysis—and so did not see her for about ten days. However, her attitude changed, (apparently due to a trip to Paris) and Jung finally consented to try again. Since that time, I have seen him only once or twice, for she has had every hour. Apparently they are getting on swimmingly. Helen’s resistances have mostly broken down, and Jung speaks almost enthusiastically of her as a pupil. I start in again tomorrow, after muddling my brain quite thoroughly over the “Collected Papers.” (Reference here: Jung, C. G. [1917a]. C. Long [Ed.], Collected papers on analytical psychology. London: Baillie`re, Tindall and Cox.) It does seem to me that we are preceding with a regrettable slowness, but of course Jung knows what is best. If the pace is not accelerated, it seems to me we will get back just in time for Thanksgiving. (Reference here: If this was the completion time, this initial analysis lasted 6 months, at least.) As far as I’m concerned, the process has gone as far as unpacking the conscious quite thoroughly, I believe. We have done some dreams and got a good deal out of the unconscious also, but unless I miss my guess, there is a lot more to come. It appears I am a MAGNIFICENT dreamer, producing the most astonishing phantasies almost at command. The first day Jung asked me to write down any dreams that came that night. I had no less than three corkers. After Jung read them he whistled, and said “Please don’t dream anymore for awhile.” Obedient to command, I didn’t dream again until directed to. To sum up, I am very pleased with Helen’s progress, and a little dissatisfied with my own. Jung stated in the beginning that he would deal with my conscious, and turn me over to Toni for my other side. I am frightfully keen on the analysis, and it is rumored here that Jung is going somewhere on the 15 of July—impossible to get confirmation or denial. Maybe I’m slower than molasses in winter, but I’m doing all I can to co-operate. As to health, Helen is better than she has been in a long time—natural effect of a relieved tension, plus plenty of out-door exercise. I feel fine, too, though a little worried that I am missing something. Some kind fairy got me elected to the GRASS-HOPPERS CLUB of Zurich, which means I can get all the tennis I want—so between that and the golf here, I am certainly not shy of exercise. Please give my best love to Patty, whom I hope is quite recovered by this time. Also to the children. As to you old man, I certainly never can be grateful enough to you for putting me wise to analysis as taught and practice by Herr Dr. C. G. Jung. Your affectionate cousin, R.H. (personal communication, R. Hazard to L. Bacon, June 6, 1926, [LBC]). Later in June, Kristine Mann corresponded again with Leonard Bacon, remarking: “I was glad to hear that both Mr. and Mrs. Hazard got up their courage to go in for analysis together. It is by far the best way. I shall be most interested to hear how they progress” (personal communication, Kristine Mann to Leonard Bacon, June 18, 1926, [LBC, “Zurich” folder]). Mann states that she was replying to an April 15th letter from Leonard Bacon. The rest of Hazard’s initial visit to Zu¨rich has yet to be documented. Searches in Margaret Hazard Fisher’s diary, the Fisher Papers, the Baumann Papers, and the Leonard Bacon Collection have yielded no further correspondence. Interestingly, Carol Sawyer (later Baumann) set sail on July 9 of the next year (1927) from New York on board the Cunard R.M.S. Aquitania. She was bound for London and for analysis with Dr. H. G. Baynes (Helton Godwin “Peter” Baynes, M. D. [1882–1943]. According to Barbara Hannah [1976], Baynes was C. G. Jung’s first medically qualified assistant and continued in that capacity until returning home to England in 1922. At that time, he became the leader of the newly formed Analytical Psychology Club in London [Kirsch, 2000]. Baynes traveled to Africa with Jung in 1925, after the tragic death of his second wife. He spent a year’s sabbatical in northern California in 1928 during which time Sawyer was there as well. Baynes translated many of Jung’s works into English, some along with his third wife, Cary Fink de Angulo Baynes. He died of a brain tumor in 1943). Her intention was to stay for six weeks (personal communication, July 9, 1927, M. H. Fisher diary [FP]). She stayed until returning via the Arabic on October 15 the same year. If Carol Sawyer made no reference to her cousin, her father, in a letter to Sawyer’s mother during the time of Sawyer’s London analysis, could not resist the comparisons: I have just written Carol a long letter largely about Roy [Rowland Hazard] and alcohol but with no mention of your letter to me nor of her drinking. I gave the story of Isbell and Emery also some things about Roy. I queried whether Jung had not weakened Roy’s self reliance . . . I said I had found no embarrassment in declining wines in Paris, Geneva, or Rome and many do as a matter of course. I said once I had my glass filled when my head was turned. Then I tasted it from curiosity as I had tasted none for years. It tasted good but I drank none beyond that taste as I wanted the full possession of my faculties and knew I couldn’t have it if I drank an appreciable amount, etc. etc. (personal communication, Irving Fisher to Margaret Hazard Fisher, September 11, 1927 [FP]) During the time of Carol Sawyer’s London analysis, Rowland Hazard embarked on an “African expedition,” setting sail on September 21, 1927 (personal communication, M. H. Fisher diary [FP]). In the early months of 1928, several letters were exchanged regarding Hazard’s African trip. Those following all regard an apparent “illness” suffered by Hazard during his time away from home. At this time, this author cannot offer a definitive interpretation of what happened to him during his expedition. However, this author will conjecture, based on several clues within the documentation and an understanding of the family, that this was the time of Hazard’s supposed relapse. It also seems likely that Leonard Bacon was sent to retrieve Hazard and usher him back into Jung’s care. According to the available documentation, the timeline is as follows. On January 20, 1928, Leonard Bacon told Carol Sawyer: “I am not sailing till March 10th, as Roy can’t leave Africa for at least a month. They were to take him to Nairobi today, a hundred and fifty miles in an ambulance. What a world” (personal communication [BP]). Close to this date, Bacon’s aunt sent him a letter containing within it two additional letters. The first was a letter from Margaret Hazard Fisher to Rowland “Roy” Hazard, the second to Leonard from his uncle, Irving Fisher. The initial letter included the following instructions: My dear Leonard, [. . .] Will you give the enclosed to Roy when you meet, please? There is nothing in it but a message of love. Read it if you like. I agree with Uncle Irving that probably his letter to you should not be shown to Roy. But do stiffen him up in the principals involved, in which Susan (Reference here: Possibly Susan Bacon Keith [1889 –1980], Leonard Bacon’s younger sister [HFP]) agrees with us very heartily. (personal communication, Margaret Hazard Fisher to Leonard Bacon, March 9, 1928 [LBC]) The letters to “Roy,” and about him, follow: My dear Roy, There is much rejoicing in our hearts that you are so much better and able to heal after the long hard illness. I know from my London experience in 1889 what an awful thing an illness away from home can be—but I had dear Aunt Caroline to watch over me—and you, you dear, were entirely alone! I hope you got some of the wire-less messages of love and affection which we sent you in the hardest days of your illness? With dear love from us both, and every good wish that the new strength of body and soul is coming back in full measure. I am, Always yours affectionately, Aunt Margie. (personal communication, Margaret Hazard Fisher to Rowland Hazard, March 8, 1928 [LBC]) Dear Leonard, Like everybody else I’m delighted to know that Roy has come to himself. I much hope he will stay put. From twenty years’ study of hygiene I believe one of the most essential conditions to prevent backsliding is total abstinence (Reference here: Irving Fisher was a vocal and written proponent of prohibition, penning, in particular Prohibition at Its Worst [Fisher, 1926]. According to his biographer, Fisher’s “feelings about alcohol were very strong. Whenever the subject came up, he was pat to repeat what he regarded as a truism: A man who has had one beer is one beer drunk” [Allen, 1993, p. 193]. His writing was criticized because, although factually correct, he failed to contain his strong bias in his interpretation of the facts [Allen, ibid]). I suspect that Roy’s change of heart is largely due to the gradual elimination from his brain of alcoholic poison. If he puts it back it will again corrode his moral fiber. Of course there are many other conditions for keeping well physically, mentally, and morally; but if I have the right picture of Roy this one is the most important, certainly among the physical ones. He already knows perhaps more than I do about the mental ones. I have often felt the impulse to write Roy, but, rightly or wrongly I generally avoid preaching to an individual unless specially invited. If you think best and can get Roy to ask me to talk with him I am sure I could be of very great help not only in convincing him re: alcohol but in a dozen other ways, which, taken together may be just as important. But I am now writing on this one theme which I fear may be overlooked by Roy and his friends. I hope that you agree with me, and will, as occasion offers, do your best to induce Roy, if he needs inducing, to keep, or get, on the water wagon. Please give him my love with Aunt Margie’s. But I fear this letter might, if shown him, reach him the wrong way. As ever, Uncle Irving. (personal communication, Irving Fisher to Leonard Bacon, March 9, 1928 [LBC]) It is important to note that these three letters are still together in the Leonard Bacon Collection at Yale’s Beinecke Library. Given this, it is most likely that the letter from Margaret Hazard Fisher never made it into Rowland Hazard’s hands. Curiously, Leonard Bacon, in his autobiography (1939), remarked “Troubles not my own took me to Europe again in the spring of 1928” (p. 193). At that time, Bacon reportedly visited Jung at his summer home at Bollingen, this time meeting the great doctor as a friend rather than as a patient. This lends credence to the theory that Bacon met Hazard and brought him back to Jung. On March 10, 1928, “Leonard Bacon sails today to meet Roy and Pierre [Thomas P. “Pierre” Hazard, Rowland Hazard’s younger brother]” (personal communication, M. H. Fisher diary [FP]). Given this timeline, Rowland Hazard’s previously noted divorce from and remarriage to his wife, Helen, in 1929 and 1931, respectively, falls after his final visit to Jung, rather than prior to it. Future Work Historical Conflation of Jung’s Conceptions Perhaps the most important piece of Jung’s role in the history of AA, from a Jungian perspective, is correctly assessing the interaction of Jung’s theory with the history of AA. Rowland Hazard came into analysis at a particular point in Jung’s emerging theory. For example, many of Jung’s now well-known conceptions, such as the theory of the archetypes and his alchemical forays, to name but two, were as yet inchoate. However, in 1926, Jung was, theoretically, very interested in the recognition of psychic opposites and the balancing of these opposites, in particular using the tool of active imagination (See, for example, Jung, 1928, and Jung, 1989). In order to truly assess the historical context for Jung’s interaction with Rowland Hazard and his subsequent effect on the founding of AA, Jung’s conceptions need to be addressed as they emerged historically, rather than in a way that conflates his theory historically. In several of the accounts of his role as benefactor of AA, Jung’s works are used to examine his position on alcoholism and its treatment. The challenge called forth by such an exposition, however, and one which has not been adequately answered to date, is to reconstruct Jung’s theory as it emerged historically. For example, in his 1998 account, Kurtz bookends the tale of Rowland Hazard, Jung, and Alcoholics Anonymous with Hazard’s obituary from the New York Times and Jung’s letter to Bill Wilson in 1961. The latter was written some 35 years after the time at which Rowland Hazard was first analyzed by Jung, during which time Jung’s conceptions evolved significantly. Therefore, it is important to look at Jung’s theory in 1926, the time at which Rowland Hazard entered analysis for the first time, as distinct from Jung’s theory in 1961, shortly before he died. That is, Jung’s interactions, more than three decades apart, would have been grounded in significantly different iterations of his theory. Recalibrating to 1926 Now that the year of Rowland Hazard’s initial analysis has been clarified through primary source material, there is a fresh opportunity to draw out Jung’s historical effect on Alcoholics Anonymous. Given that the year is significantly earlier than once thought, any supposition that had previously been wrought from the alleged early 1930s analysis needs readjustment. Future work could approach the material by constructing an exposition of Jung’s theory as it emerged historically including the point at which Rowland Hazard stepped into the analytical hour and began an interface with Jung’s emerging theory. In addition, further development of the story of the three Hazard cousins—Rowland Hazard, Leonard Bacon, and Carol Sawyer Baumann—would be a meaningful addition to both the Jungian and the AA historical docket. Manuscript Collections Frequently Cited BP: Baumann Papers, Carol Fisher Sawyer, located in the home of Peter and Ann Sawyer Williams, Cleveland Heights, OH. Indexed by Amy Colwell Bluhm, 2002-2003 (Bluhm, 2003). CSD: Included in the Baumann Papers is the Carol Sawyer Diary. This diary documents Sawyer’s time in England from July 10, 1927 until October 15, 1927. FP: Fisher Papers, Sterling Memorial Library, Yale University, New Haven, CT. LBC: Leonard Bacon Collection, Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library, Yale University, New Haven, CT. HFP: Hazard Family Papers, Rhode Island Historical Society, Providence, RI. References Allen, R. L. (1993). Irving Fisher: A biography. Cambridge, MA: Blackwell. Anonymous (1998). The Akron genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous. Kihei, Maui, Hawaii: Paradise Research Publications. Bacon, L. (1939). Semi-centennial: Some of the life and part of the opinions of Leonard Bacon. New York: Harper. Bair, D. (2003). Jung: A biography. NY: Little, Brown and Company. Bluhm, A. C. (2005). Turning toward individuation: Carol Sawyer Baumann’s interpretation of Jung, 1927–1932. Unpublished doctoral dissertation, Saybrook Graduate School and Research Center, San Francisco, CA. Cheever, S. (2004). Bill Wilson—His life and the creation of Alcoholics Anonymous. NY: Simon & Schuster. Dick, B. (1999). New Light on Alcoholism: God, Sam Shoemaker, and A. A. Kihei, Maui, Hawaii: Paradise Research Publications. Dubiel, R. M. (2004). The road to fellowship: The role of the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club in the development of Alcoholics Anonymous. NY: IUniverse. Finlay, S. W. (2000). Influence of Carl Jung and William James on the origin of Alcoholics Anonymous. Review of General Psychology, 4, 3–12. Fisher, I. (1926). Prohibition at its worst. NY: Macmillan and Company. Hannah, B. (1976). Jung: His life and work. New York: G. P. Putnam and Sons. Hartigan, F. (2000). Bill W.: A biography of Alcoholics Anonymous cofounder Bill Wilson. NY: St. Martin’s Press. Jung, C. G. (1928). (H. G. and C. Baynes, Trans.), Two essays on analytical psychology. NY: Dodd, Mead. Jung, C. G. (1989). Analytical psychology: Notes of the seminar given in 1925. (W. McGuire, Ed.). Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press. (Original work published 1925) Kirsch, T. B. (2000). The Jungians: A comparative and historical perspective. London: Routledge. Kurtz, E. (1988). AA: The story. San Francisco: Harper & Row. O’Neil, M. (1998). Rowland Hazard. Retrieved June 11, 2004, from http://www.aabibliography.com/rowlandhazzard.htm Pittman, B. (1988). AA: The way it began. Seattle, WA: Glen Abbey Books. Raphael, M. J. (2000). Bill W. and Mr. Wilson: The legend and life of A. A.’s cofounder. Amherst, MA: University of Massachusetts Press. Sikorsky, I. I. (1990). A. A.’s godparents: Three early influences on Alcoholics Anonymous and its foundation, Carl Jung, Emmett Fox, Jack Alexander. Minneapolis, MN: CompCare Publishers. Von Drehle, David. (2004, May 3). One page at a time; Susan Cheever’s chilling glimpse of AA’s tormented “Saint.” The Washington Post, C01. White, W. L. (1998). Slaying the dragon: The history of addiction treatment and recovery in America. Bloomington, IL: Chestnut Health Systems. Wilson, B. (2000). Bill W.: My first 40 years. Center City, MN: Hazelden. (Originally recorded 1935) Received October 13, 2005 Revision received December 4, 2005 Accepted June 9, 2006 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7437. . . . . . . . . . . . Winfred Rhoades, The Self You Have to Live With From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/21/2011 4:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII An early review of "The Self You Have to Live With" - by Winfred Rhoades. Philadelphia: Lippincott, 1938. 182 pp. Price, $1.75. (Rhoades' book was one of the titles on the early Akron recommended reading list which was handed out to new AA members. Note some of the common factors among the things talked about in these books, such as a positive appreciation of modern psychology and Rhoades' definition of true religion and spirituality as "conscious association with the divine Spirit and Life," rather than a demand for uncritical acceptance of numbers of complicated doctrines and dogmas.) American Journal of Public Health: Books and Reports, Vol. 29 (April, 1939), pp. 397-398. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1529477/pdf/amjphnation00993-009 3b.p\ df [20] This is essentially an inspirational book, a modern version of those treatises on life, of long and honorable literary history, that have drawn on the common sense and wisdom of the ages, back to the inspired scriptural writers and the ancient Greek philosophers from whom we have inherited treasures of knowledge held valid to this day. To the precept "Know Thyself " the present author adds the injunction " Live With Thyself," positing under this concept a rule of life that draws liberally on the findings and teachings of modern psychology and psychiatry adapted to his personal philosophic predilections. Reflecting the lessons of his own life and a desire " to pass along to other suffering and struggling people some of the things I had learned in the hard and long school of personal sickness," his essay may be said to derive from a " variety of religious experience " that gave him motive power and insight making for healthy personal adjustment of a quality and degree he confidently considers attainable by others likeminded in their grasp and acceptance of certain underlying principles and attitudes. It is a combination of spiritual and mental hygiene that we are offered in this treatise on " how to live," which is based also on the author's psychological work in the Boston Dispensary unit of the New England Medical Center, where he has conducted classes in " thought control " and helped and advised individuals with adjustment problems. While tenuous in its psychological material, it has great value, in the opinion of this reviewer, in the attention it gives to volitional factors and in its appreciation of the role of " will " in human behavior, which modern psychology tends to neglect in its preoccupation with thought and emotion. Hence the relevance of religion, as well as psychology, in human motivation and conduct, as emphasized by this writer and as other psychological writers are coming vaguely to recognize. But the " return to religion" must be rooted in sterner stuff and in solider concepts of the nature and meaning of religion than some psychologists are offering us at this time, if the mechanists, determinists, and materialists of mental science are to be convincingly gainsaid. The present author, for example, defines religion as " intrinsically not a belief, not a doctrine . . . but conscious association with the divine Spirit and Life." This is a pale formula to oppose to the negative convictions of the psychoanalyst who regards religion as an " illusion." PAUL O. KOMORA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7438. . . . . . . . . . . . This Saturday, June 25, 2011: Grapevine Play in Santa Monica From: jaxena77 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/20/2011 5:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In Our Own Words, the hit Grapevine play of the 13th International Convention last summer, is performing one night only in Santa Monica this Saturday, June 25, 2011. Please help us pass it on to anyone you know in recovery in Southern California. We had an amazing show and a packed audience this weekend in Sonoma County. I think the Los Angeles event will be very special and very moving. There is a whole section in the play about the founding of AA in Los Angeles, and two of my favorite "characters" in the play, Sybil C and June G, are from LA. Saturday, June 25, 2011 Dinner @ 6:00 pm, Speaker Meeting @ 7:00 pm, Play @ 8:30 pm. Lincoln Middle School Auditorium, 1501 California Ave., Santa Monica $15 suggested donation - presale tickets available at http://icypaahost.org/page7.php. Youtube preview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfv5dVNoTV0 Facebook event page: http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=177665952285931 Thank you very much to Glenn C. and everyone at this AAHistoryLovers group for the indispensable help in researching the play, especially the lesser known stories of the pioneering members of the special composition groups in the fellowship. I hope to meet some of you in LA! Thank you, Jackie B San Francisco, California IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7439. . . . . . . . . . . . A second summer play about AA: Cincinnati, Aug. 19-21, 2011 From: hjfree2001 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2011 6:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In addition to the play "In Our Own Words" on the West Coast, the play "Bill W and Dr. Bob" about AA's founders, will be performed in Park Hills, Kentucky (5 miles south of Cincinnati) August 19-21, with a free performance(ticket needed) for those in our local rehabs August 18. This show was also performed in San Antonio, and sold out with an extended run at the Cleveland Playhouse last spring. See the moment all our recovery began! http://thegratefullifefoundation.org/BillW_and_DrBob_Play.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7440. . . . . . . . . . . . Photo of Ray Campbell From: Aalogsdon . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2011 1:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Looking for a photograph of Ray Campbell, the author of AN ARTIST'S CONCEPT story in the 1st Edition. Need for archive display. Thanks. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7441. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: King School cowbell From: ROGER WHEATLEY . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/18/2011 10:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was just at Akron Intergroup archives where the bell is on display with a similar Oxford Group bell. the bells, as our guide explained, were used to open the meeting and was a custom that AA borrowed from Oxford Group meetings. - - - - See message 7417, also messages 7420, 7426, and 7427 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7442. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Biographies of the authors of the Big Book stories From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/20/2011 6:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn It would appear that there is no book and your best suggestion is to read the stories from AAHL correct? In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst - - - - Chuck, The earliest written version of these stories that I have ever seen is the version contained in AAHistoryLovers Messages 63 through 137. But I wasn't involved in putting them together, so my knowledge (or lack thereof) of whether there was an earlier version, or whether anybody back at the beginning ever tried to write it up in a book, doesn't count for much.* When Nancy Olson died, we tried to find her books and papers to put them in a suitable archives. One person made a personal trip to her apartment in Virginia. It was totally bare. There was nothing there -- literally nothing at all. No one would admit to knowing what had happened to all of her books and papers. So the next question would be to ask the surviving members of the group which assembled those biographies if they have saved any early drafts, or notes indicating where particular information came from, or anything else of that sort. This would include people like Barefoot Bill Lash (barefootbill at optonline.net) and Jim Blair in Canada (jblair at videotron.ca) and any others who were involved back then. Al Welch was very close to Nancy, and may also have some useful information here about what the most accurate and authoritative copy of these biographies would be. See his excellent version of the biographies at http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm But anyway, as I said, I wasn't involved in researching or writing the biographies, so we need to hear from some of our group who actually know something about this. And we need to do this before everybody who was involved in this is dead and gone. Glenn _____________________________________ *Strictly speaking, these first appeared in the AAHistoryBuffs in 2001, see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/message/700 and following, but were transferred verbatim to the AAHistoryLovers when Nancy changed her email address without realizing that this would bar her from any further access to the Buffs, and the Lovers had to be started as a replacement group -- Fiona Dodd played a key role in getting our group through that tricky period, and has continued moderating the group in every case of need all the way down to the present day -- but I don't know whether she was involved in the original research which was done when those biographies were first written up. -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Parkhurst Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 10:53 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Biographies of the authors of the Big Book stories Is there an actual book, hardcopy or online, on the authors of the personal stories in the original first edition? I have seen the short biographies at: http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html but would like to see more of the information on these AA pioneers, including original sobriety dates (as best they are) and whether or not they stayed sober. Thank you for any help In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7443. . . . . . . . . . . . More Than Words / Big Book Seminar 1991 From: Joseph Adams . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2011 1:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a PDF of a handout from a "Big Book Seminar 1991" and would like to find the group or author(s) who put it together for a future issue of Sponsor Magazine. Does anyone know the source? My usual web searches have not provided anything reliable. Joe A, Editor Sponsor Magazine and Anonymous Review Podcast e-mail address: (bigbookjoe at yahoo.com) ============================================== The document is fourteen pages long, beginning as follows: ============================================== Big Book Seminar 1991 MORE THAN WORDS 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous: Are you sure you know what those words mean? Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery: here adv. in this place / at this or at that moment in time, action, thought the adj. the definite article used to denote a thing. step n. one of a series of stages in a process, activity, step by step gradually to keep step to stay in step/to take steps/to begin to do what is necessary in order to achieve a certain purpose we pron. oneself and others, as named by oneself. take v. pres. part. took past part, to put the hand on or in so as to give or receive guidance, take my hand while we cross the street, to guide (somebody) in this way, to expose oneself to the benefit of, to make use of. which pron. what one or ones of several things, etc. pointed out, denoted, described etc. suggested v.t. to put forward as a consideration / to propose something as a possibility. program n. a plan or sequence of things to be done / to work out a plan of the operations to be executed by. recovery v.t. to get back possession of / to regain the balance of oneself / to return to a normal condition ofprosperity / to regain one’s composure, balance etc. ============================================== And the last page ends as follows: ============================================== Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs. spiritual adj. of, relating to, or concerned with the soul or spirit / the intelligent or immaterial part of man as distinguished from the body/the moral nature of a man I a supernatural being, usually regarded as invisible but as having the power to become visible at will/a specified mental or emotional attitude characterizing words, actions, opinions, etc. awakening n. a realization of circumstances / an arousal of interest or activity. try v. to attempt to do / to test experimentally. message n. inspired revelation / ethical or spiritual teaching. practice v. repeated performance or systematic exercise for the purpose of learning or acquiring proficiency. principle n. a law of nature as formulated and accepted by the mind / the acceptance of moral law as a guide to behavior. affair n. daily concerns. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7444. . . . . . . . . . . . Trudging From: meggyplunk . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/24/2011 5:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Did the word "Trudging" have a different definition in the dictionary from 1938? I have heard it meant almost exactly opposite of what the definition is today. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7445. . . . . . . . . . . . Archive Effort for New Jersey From: mrpetesplace . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2011 6:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello everyone, I received this email of a person who wants to help with the Archive Effort in New Jersey. I kept out their personal information so as not want to be posted in this group. What I need is someone to contact me so I can forward it to the right person. I believe Lester was involved with one in NJ but don't know if there are more than one. If this sounds what you are looking for, then let me know. My number is 980-522-6138 or you can email me at peter then "@" then aastuff.com. Following email info: To whom it may concern, I am interested in donating to the Archive effort for New Jersey. I am interested in donating ..(edited)..for the software necessary to purchase Proficio Elements. Can I donate ..(edited).. directly to the Archives? Please call me at ..(edited) or responding by the e-mail address above. Then they have their name and info. Thank you in advance... Peter IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7446. . . . . . . . . . . . the businessman who quit for a time From: rul6t2 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/18/2011 10:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a question about the character described on pg. 32 of the BB in More About Alcoholism. This is the businessman who stopped drinking for twenty-five years, retired, started drinking again, and drank himself to death within four years. I remember reading somewhere that this is a conflation of a story that was being told around the Oxford groups at the time of the BB's writing, and another entirely different story that is contained in Peabody's "Common Sense of Drinking." Neither of those stories really matches the one Bill wrote, I recall learning. He was taking a fair bit of artistic license to make a point, it seems. Unfortunately I failed to bookmark the source for all this, and now I can't seem to find it again, no matter what search parameters I try. Can anyone help me out here? This is a darned peculiar story, even when you take away the possibility that it isn't exactly true. It's brought up to prove the point that some alcoholics can stop on willpower, if they stop soon enough. The further point is made that these people, and all real alcoholics, will get worse if they pick up the bottle again. I have to wonder how important it was to make that first point anyway--that you may be able to stop on willpower if you stop soon enough. Who exactly was that supposed to help? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7447. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the businessman who quit for a time From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2011 4:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Page 32 of the Big Book: "A man of thirty" was a story based loosely on an anecdote given in Richard Peabody, "The Common Sense of Drinking," page 123. Peabody briefly mentions an unknown man who gave up drinking until he had made his fortune five years later. Resuming "moderate" drinking, he was soon back in his alcoholic difficulties, losing his money in two or three years and dying of alcoholism a few years after that. AA has never claimed that going to AA was the only way to get sober. In the period before an AA group was started in Boston, when alcoholics from Boston wrote the New York AA office, they would send them to the Jacoby Club and Emmanuel Movement, which had as high a success rate as AA. [See Richard M. Dubiel, The Road to Fellowship: The Role of the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club in the Development of Alcoholics Anonymous.] For centuries, some alcoholics had gotten sober by going to church (and some alcoholics still get sober that way today, about 1% or so of the alcoholics who get long term sobriety, by my estimate). The Oxford Group and the Salvation Army provide good examples of people getting sober by coming to Jesus. John Wesley and his Methodists had a good success rate in getting alcoholics sober in the urban slums and coal mining camps of eighteenth century England, and were also successful in Ireland and the North American colonies during that century (but not Scotland). The Salvation Army, which was founded by a Methodist minister, was an offspring of the Methodist movement. Carl Jung had seen a Methodist evangelist getting some alcoholics sober where he lived in Europe, which was probably where he first learned that this was possible. From 1935 to 1948, a Methodist publication called The Upper Room was the commonest meditational book used in early AA -- Dr. Bob and Anne Smith read and discussed it every morning in their home, with the AA people who had dropped by for morning coffee before work. Likewise, a small percentage of alcoholics can get sober simply by using their will power. The early AA people were well aware of this, and there's ample modern data from the psychologists documenting this. Modern psychologists sometimes claim that the success rate that way can sometimes be as high as two or three percent, but by my own reckoning, it's not quite that high, more like one percent or so at most. But in the modern United States, 98% of the alcoholics whom I know who gained long term sobriety, did so by going to AA meetings and following the twelve steps. If you like to go to horse racing tracks, and betting in every race on the one horse who has only won one race out of every hundred it has run (as opposed to the horse which has won 98% of the races it has entered) then by all means, go spend years trying to get sober on your own! And in addition, really working the twelve steps will give you a quality of serenity and peace of mind which is as high or higher than any other spiritual discipline which I am aware of, from this century or any other period of history. And it works for a greater percentage of people and far more quickly, than any other spiritual discipline I am aware of. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7448. . . . . . . . . . . . Question about the Third Step and Seventh Step Prayers From: Lisa B . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/24/2011 12:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've heard but never really questioned the story that the Seventh Step prayer is the completion of the Third Step prayer -- and that the evidence is based on the fact that Bill W. put an Amen after the Seventh Step prayer but not after the Third Step prayer. What's the truth about this? Thank you! Lisa B. Dallas, Texas IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7449. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Trudging From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2011 7:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From James Bliss, Bill , Bill Lash, Charles Knapp, Chuck Parkhurst, Sherry Hartsell, Baileygc, Archives Histories, Lynn Sawyer, John Jones, plus a translation into Yiddish by GC the moderator - - - - From: James Bliss (james.bliss at comcast.net) From *The Winston Simplified Dictionary*, copyright 1928 trudge v.i [p.t and p.p. trudged, p.pr. trudging], to travel on foot, esp. with labor or fatigue; as, he trudged along through the woods. Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2011: VERB (used without object) 1.to walk, especially laboriously or wearily: to trudge up a long flight of steps. VERB (used with object) 2.to walk laboriously or wearily along or over: He trudged the deserted road for hours. NOUN 3.a laborious or tiring walk; tramp. Word Origin & History: trudge "to walk laboriously," 1547, of unknown origin. The noun meaning "an act of trudging" is attested from 1835. - - - - From: Bill (lambchopp at gmail.com) I have The Modern Webster dictionary, copyright 1934: Trudge -- to travel on foot, especially with labor or fatigue - - - - From: Bill Lash (barefootbill at optonline.net) The 1938 dictionary I have defines "trudge" as: To travel on foot; to walk with purpose and effort. Just Love, Barefoot Bill - - - - From: Charles Knapp (cpknapp at yahoo.com) 22 years ago when I came in, I would share with my sponsor what I read in the Big Book, only to be told "That is not what that means." My first sponsor made me look up words in the dictionary because I had no idea what they meant or that most words had more than one meaning. I had this big stack of 3 X 5 cards with words and their definitions. I do not know the edition or publisher of dictionary I used but I remember how shocked I was when I looked up the word trudge. Images of a hard nearly impossible, uphill climb was what formed in my head. The dictionary I used had "walk with purpose" as a second or third definition. Trudging became a positive action, to me, instead of a negative one. I thank my sponsor of making me do this because the Big Book became a totally different book the more I read it. Hope this helps Charles from Wisconsin - - - - From: "Chuck Parkhurst" (ineedpage63 at cox.net) My Funk and Wagnall's dictionary, copyright 1939, defines trudge as: "walk laboriously; plod" (where plod is defined in this dictionary as "walk over heavily; proceed with toil"). In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst - - - - From: "Sherry C. Hartsell" (hartsell at etex.net) You asked: "Did the word 'Trudging' have a different definition in the dictionary from 1938? I have heard it meant almost exactly opposite of what the definition is today." Not that a search has so far revealed. sherry - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) Dictionary does not indicate any change. - - - - From: Archives Historie (firsthings1st at yahoo.com) Not according to Websters Dictionary of 1939. Same meaning as today. - - - - From: Lynn Sawyer (sawyer7952 at yahoo.com) Hello, all, 'Trudging' at www.dictionary.com is: verb (used without object) <1. to walk, especially laboriously or wearily: to trudge up a long flight of steps.> with these words listed as synonyms: stumble, traipse, march, tramp, tread, step, trek Don't know if this'd be different in a 1938 dictionary but thought this might be helpful. Lynn S. grateful alcoholic Sacramento, California - - - - From: "John Jones" (john.jones14 at ntlworld.com) "Did the word 'Trudging' have a different definition in the dictionary from 1938? I have heard it meant almost exactly opposite of what the definition is today." Yes the definition was "slow deliberate steps. Slow march." John - - - - From GC the moderator: A good Jewish friend of mine in the AA program argues that one usage of the Yiddish word schlep could be used to translate the English word trudge quite accurately. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/schlep 1. to carry; lug: to schlep an umbrella on a sunny day. 2. to move slowly, awkwardly, or tediously: We schlepped from store to store all day. World English Dictionary 1. to drag or lug (oneself or an object) with difficulty 2. a stupid or clumsy person 3. an arduous journey or procedure Slang Dictionary 1. to drag or carry someone or something. : Am I supposed to schlep this whole thing all the way back to the store? 2. a journey; a distance to travel or carry something. : It takes about twenty minutes to make the schlep from here to there. 3. a stupid person; a bothersome person. (Literally, a drag.) : Ask that shlep to wait in the hall until I am free. I'll sneak out the back way. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7450. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Trudging From: Frank in LA . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/28/2011 3:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Frank in LA and Charlie C. - - - - I've often heard it explained that "trudge" can mean "to walk with determination." And it can, in its plain denotation. But even in 1938 the word had overwhelmingly negative connotations. Consider the first stanza of the famous WWI poem Dulce et Decorum est by Wilfred Owen, written around 1917: Bent double, like old beggars under sacks, Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge, Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs And towards our distant rest began to trudge. Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind; Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots Of disappointed shells that dropped behind. In painting this gloomy picture, the poet obviously chose his words and their flavor with care. "Trudge," like so many other words in this stanza, is being employed for its darkness and negativity. The simplest explanation for the presence of "trudge" on pg 164 of the Big Book is that Bill Wilson, at best, didn't consider its connotation particularly well. But that it was just a poor word choice is something many are reluctant to consider, perhaps because it seems to undermine the authority of the writing. - - - - From: Charlie C (route20guy at yahoo.com) The modern Oxford English Dictionary has to trudge as to "...walk laboriously, wearily, but steadily and persistantly..." Also simply to "... go away, depart ..." The examples given usage of the word over time do not show it to have changed much in definition or usage. I've always thought it a little bit of an odd choice, given it does have this long standing connotation of walking in a "laborious" fashion etc., but then I wonder if the second part, the "steadily and persistently," is the key part. One is to hold fast when on the road of happy destiny ... There may be some slang usage from the '30s I am unaware of, but as dictionary definitions go this is pretty definitive. I don't know if you really need a 1930s dictionary, as any bigger, unabridged dictionary will give examples of the history of a word's use and show where it has changed. Charlie Cowling Clarkson, NY IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7451. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Reading in early AA From: Paul . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2011 12:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ernie, when I'd read your post I took note of: "advisability/utility ... OR possible dangers of such reading?" which I think is well posed, but I took note of a segment of your reference to Glenn's 2004 post: "There is no way that a historian who is not deeply familiar with the principles of the Enlightenment can understand A.A. at all." When I go to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment, I find that there may be a *radical enlightenment* as opposed (or in addition) to a *moderate enlightenment,* in the view of historian Jonathan Israel. All of which begs the question: "*Which* AA?" In other words, "*Which* Enlightenment?" Of course, the answer(s) might be as obvious as "formative AA" and "all of the Enlightenment." Kurtz posits (variably, in his Appendix B to *N-G*): "Akron-styled AA," "Akron-Cleveland AA," and/or "fundamentalist AA," (VS?) New York AA" and possibly another variant. Prof Travis introduces "Traditionalist AA," (VS?) "GSO AA," - and perhaps more notably her section called "The Triumph of the Therapeutic" - which makes one wonder about a (possible) "therapeutic AA." It's *fair* to ask when/if we're asking about "early, middle, or late" AA, but those terms don't appear (on face value) to be adequately defined. Of course, "late AA" might be relegated to purely ethnographic study, or broader cultural concerns, but I'm not the only person asking about the in/f/lux/luence and diffusion of AA vernacular, as recent posts could seem to indicate. EXAMPLE: "Newcomer is the most important person in the room," might fall under the "therapeutic" rubric. Both Roizen's ("Mysterious Marty Mann" &tc. here & elsewhere) and the recent entry (Kurtz 2006) attest to "operational" vernacular (the disease concept); yet vernacular it is, nonetheless. Point being, some AA oldtimers will refer to the DIS-EASE (clearly enunciating the syllables) and thereby articulate the difference, i.e., indicating that they do indeed appreciate the difference between a concept, definition, and a connotative value, whether or no someone else "in the room" perceives that there is one. It may be for their own benefit. Therefore the question I'd asked earlier - of the title of Kurtz's book - was not at all plaintive, and completely value neutral, having nothing whatsoever to do with its derivation: Mr. Kurtz, were you aware (in 1979 or at the appendix in 1992) of the common AA parlance, "There is a God, and you're not Him?" And if so, why did you choose to exclude it? Possibly for practical reasons: the same way Trysh Travis has chosen print culture to the exclusion of other sources? In other words, I was asking a philosophical question, like, "What is the matrix, or the set of multipliers, or the dimension of that set, or domain, that helps determine the present/past/future trajectory of the (various) wings of AA?" Ernie answered that question, in the last paragraph of his "response" to me (and others), very much in the abstract, which was kindhearted, because he probably knew I wouldn't fully comprehend it, which I didn't, but thereby gave me another nut to crack, like the small handful of nuts some people (like me) sometimes carry around in their pockets, sometimes for very long periods, until the opportunity for cracking presents. There is a very unique state of affairs here: suppose only *one* comprehensive Civil War textbook had been written (from a scholarly perspective). And suppose that the *one* author were open for commentary? In another reference below, another one that Ernie has made to Glenn's 2004 series, we read that New Age is intrinsically hostile to Christianity, at least as compared to New Thought, which could be the case. On the other hand, New Age is more sympathetic to psychology, or at least "fourth force," which isn't to say neo-Freudian. Obviously, the(se) question(s) might be better posed: "How many Traditionalist AA's would be...?" and "How many GSO AA's would be thus disposed?" &tc. Best, Paul PS: I also found the following comments from Glenn (again, referenced by Ernie below) to be extremely informative, and believe they may be found in amplified, modified, or similar form in Trysh Travis' *Loh*: "By 1939 the A.A. leaders were increasingly recommending that newcomers only read a small selection of biblical passages deliberately chosen because they did not speak about the divinity of Christ or contain any notion that people had to pray to Jesus or rely upon his death and resurrection to save them. In the Sermon on the Mount, prayer is to God the Father, and in the Letter of James, it is to God the Father of Lights. In chapter 13 of First Corinthians (unlike the chapters that come before it and after it), the higher power is spoken of only as the one who already knows us fully, whom we shall at last see face to face ..." "When Richmond Walker published his Twenty-Four Hours a Day in 1948, it swept the country rapidly, and put an end to A.A. use of the classical Protestant liberal meditational book called The Upper Room. *This means that by that point, the center of gravity in American A.A. had clearly moved from the classical Protestant liberal position to something much more radical, that is a desire among many members for a kind of spirituality which made little or no mention of Christianity at all.* Individual members were free to be Fundamentalists or conservative Baltimore Catechism Roman Catholics or anything else they wanted in their private prayers, but in most parts of the United States, it was made clear that Christian references were to be kept out of A.A. meetings, with very few exceptions to that rule." [*Italics* added.] I think that this means that circa 1948 should mark the beginning of a defined period (possible "middle" period) of AA. Prof Travis has not been as clear about this, I believe, as Glenn. Nor was Kurtz in *N-G,* if memory serves. But I still need to ask, Glenn, in the sentence above that reads "By 1939 the A.A. leaders..." which does that mean? Surely that excludes Cleveland, but does it include Akron? Could you please be more specific? Thanks Kindly. ______________________________ RESPONSE TO THIS LAST QUESTION FROM GLENN C: when I said "By 1939 the A.A. leaders were increasingly recommending that newcomers only read a small selection of biblical passages deliberately chosen because they did not speak about the divinity of Christ or contain any notion that people had to pray to Jesus or rely upon his death and resurrection to save them," I was definitely including Akron AA, see the old Akron Manual called "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous," which was handed out to newcomers when they were checked into the hospital for detoxing. The Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7, the letter of James, 1 Corinthians 13, and Psalms 23 and 91 were the specific parts of the Bible which they were told to read in the original version of the pamphlet. See http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html (about the middle of the page). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7452. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the businessman who quit for a time From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2011 6:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A couple of things come to mind with our friend of thirty. He is doing a great deal of "spree" drinking and is drinking in the morning to quiet his nerves. He "loses control" every time he drinks. It would seem our friend has clearly crossed the line and is the "gamma type" of alcoholic as Jellinek described. He suddenly finds a new object for his devotion (money and success) makes a decision (surrender) and he plugs the jug. He is now a workaholic instead of an alcoholic with money as his higher power. As Bill said he was an "exceptional" man.....i.e more than just one rocking dude he was the rare bird.....the exception.....the one in a hundred! Most alcoholics probably couldn't pull this one off. Carl Jung hit the nail on the head when he said the thing that cures a "neurosis" must be as powerful or an even more powerful neurosis. If one can "religiously" pursue a new "object" of affection or devotion and all their thoughts and motives crystallize around it (c.f. William James and Religiomania) you can replace one obsession for another. But of course the fundamental "spriritual" and perhaps the physiological thirst will continue to progress and look out if our man so much as takes one drink because the train wreck will be inevitable if he indeed was a true alcoholic. There are many ways to become abstinent and this example is but one, fewer ways to become sober and serene outside of "A Solution" such as a spiritual path or fellowship, and probably none to go back to moderate drinking (with long term success) if you were in fact a "real alcoholic" The story of course is a powerful example of what happens if we drink after a long period of abstinence, one which I can testify to myself. Thank God I was able to stop again before the reaper called! God Bless John B IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7453. . . . . . . . . . . . 1947 red vinyl recordings of Bill W From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/27/2011 4:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Purchased on ebay. Wonder if anyone has any historical information about these records. This auction is for a very rare set of records. These records contain a speech by Bill W. , founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. It is thought that these records represent the first recording of a Bill W. speech. Bill is reported to have been very reluctant to allow any recording of his talks. However, a persuasive gentleman in the recording business finally persuaded Bill to make a record after this man heard Bill give a series of talks in Los Angeles in April of 1947. Bill made an early record that was 16 inches wide, but because many people had no equipment to handle this format, he authorized the talks to be transcribed to two 12-inch vinyl records. The label Rockhill was selected because this small outfit agreed to make small lots of pressings as demanded and sell and distribute the records for the price of $3.30 including shipping. Bill was determined to make these talks as widely available, affordable and convenient to listen to as possible. however, it was never in mass release, and few copies survive. I do not have any sleeves nor jackets. The records themselves are in pretty rough shape. I took several photos at various angles to give an idea of their condition. I see no cracks no warping and no deep scratches. I have no turntable, so I have no idea of their sound quality. John Wikelius (justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 7454. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Reading in early AA From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/29/2011 8:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Paul, Thanks for your challenging note, though I doubt my reply will be very satisfying. Yes, there are several "Enlightenment"s and several A.A.s. I recently came across another interesting disjunction of the latter. I cannot post it to the AAHL list because of copyright restrictions, but if you will send me your postal address, I will get a copy off to you as "interested student," okay? The distinctions I made in *Not-God* were intended to be descriptive, not substantive. I assumed that by the time a reader got through the history in the main section of the book, those short-hand terms in Apx B would suggest already-established distinctions -- descriptive distinctions, not substantive ones. I do regret using the term "fundamentalist," which since has accrued intolerable baggage. Trysh Travis's distinction is interesting, though I fear it reflects one particular view within AA. I do, however, stand with the strong distinction of "Akron and Akron-derived AA" from "New York and NY-derived AA," still very evident at the 1955 ACOA convention. And it perdures: our esteemed moderator comes intellectually from Ak